Podcast Live: DAC Leadership Series: From Team Member to Office Leader

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

C Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, Janine.

C Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. So last

B fall, Derek and Allison from AIADC reached out to Janine to ask us if we could bring some of the content we were producing on the podcast into the the district's architecture center leadership series, and we thought what a great opportunity to do another crossover episode featuring our work through the AIA. So this is entirely experimental and at a very minimum, it should be entertaining. The premise of today's session is focused on the leadership and people management skills required to successfully lead an office. We want to know how can mid career architects successfully transition from project work into more senior roles dealing with staffing and operations. Some of the questions we'll be exploring are what characteristics are required to make the jump from team member to office leader? What skills are transferable from project leadership to leadership within the office? And how can we grow our talent from within to prepare to take on these roles?

C We've invited, as I mentioned, 2 guests to help us with this discussion, and both of them have been promoted to principal at their respective firms, at a notably young age. They're both, amazing female leaders, and they're doing impressive things with their career. She actually joined us on practice disrupted in season 3 for episode 47, which was specifically a talk talking about talent development in an architecture firm, and how she manages that, through her her leadership position. So if you haven't listened to that episode, we highly recommend it. It's been downloaded over 500 times. In addition to her role at ZGF, she's held leadership positions with the National AIAS and NAAB boards and has served on various task force and committees of NCARB. She's dedicated to the professional growth and development of the design staff at ZGF and oversees basically the staffing and recruiting efforts for over a 130 plus designers and architects who work at the intersection of people and practice. And also joining us is Megan, who is my my hiking buddy and my friend here in Raleigh who we've been getting to know each other pretty well since I moved here.

C She is a principal at LS 3P and in the Raleigh office. She's also a board member with AI North Carolina and active with ACE Mentorship and Diversify Architecture. Her leadership story is a great case study because she's also been able to transition into various roles in her career at LS three p, starting out growing into that role of architect, transitioning transitioning into project manager, and then becoming, a leader on the operations side. So she was actually promoted to the Raleigh operations and finance manager role, and she currently co leads with the Raleigh office leader for LS three p. And her focus on for management and operations makes her a key point person in conversations related to finance, legal considerations, people management, and technology. So both of these leaders have a lot to share, and their stories demonstrate a really interesting progression on promotion and kind of finding their path through their firm into leadership. So we're gonna be talking about that and both of them are gonna be sharing what they've learned through their journeys. I wanted to start by having both of you tell us a little bit about your personal experiences and how you ended up in the leadership positions that you're in either in practice or in your volunteer experiences.

D Thanks, Janine. For me, it's really been a mix of exploration as well as, a little bit of refined focus. So early in my career, I would take on anything and everything that was put in front of me. I think that's a really important stage and opportunity for us to explore the different things that are out there and start to look for, what might match well with our skill sets or passions. Right after I graduated, I started at LS 3P. So I've been at the same firm my whole career, worked through the process pretty quickly. But then I took 2 years off and, worked internationally doing some volunteer work, which is an exceptional experience, but just allowed me to see different perspectives as well as hone some skill sets of, self management leadership, as well as thinking about, the practice and the way that we serve our communities a little bit differently. Shortly after that, coming back, to LS three p, hit that point where I was like, what is next? And that turned into a moment of a lot of reflection and responsibilities that fit best for me.

D So as I continue to progress through my career, I think I've become even more selective and and really starting to, curate experiences that build upon who it is that I want to become and help me achieve my personal, purpose and passion in life.

E Megan, you and I have a lot of similarities and I'm sure that will come through in our our conversation today. For me looking back, I am where I am today because of a single decision I made as an undergraduate student at Washington State University. I was in, in studio class. I think it was kind of late at night and it was, it was a couple of weeks before that year's AIAS forum. I really wanted to get involved somehow with AIAS and, and saw the call to run for the National Board of Directors. So, I kind of took that leap of faith and decided to put my hat in the ring, and, and ran was, luckily, elected West Quad Director. And in that position, I I feel like is is that kind of pivotal moment of my career that has been led me to kind of both all of the all of the things that I've done outside of my work at CGF, all of the professional volunteerism type of work, both with the NAB and with NCARB, and, and other organizations as well. The role is, as, as a student, as WES quad director really allowed me to discover my passion for helping others and really grow people in their careers, which then kind of led me to the role that I'm in right now at CGF.

E I think, you know, as a student, it really, helped me learn a lot of important leadership skills that were very, critical, later in my career. And I was just so fortunate to have had that kind of at an early point in my, my career as well. So, saying yes to opportunities that are come, come your way is, is something that I want to make sure everyone on, on this, either the podcast or on this webinar right now understand is important, right? If you open all the doors that you can or say yes to opportunities early in your career, those opportunities then lead to other opportunities later based off of the people and the network that you grow. And saying yes early is, is really great. But then there's the other side of it. And I, and I think that Megan and I are both on the other side of it right now where you, you have to learn over time that, like, you can't do it all. And so, it's really important to start curating those opportunities. And, and it's okay to say no to the ones that may not serve you or your goals, any any further.

E And so, yeah, I guess that's probably what I'd what I'd say.

D Yeah. I think I think one of the things you touched on, Amy, that's unique is not only are you gaining experience but you're creating a network of people that you're connected to that in 5, 10 years, you don't know where those connections encourage that for sure.

C So I would assume that a lot of the people participating on today's call are somewhere in their career where they're trying to figure out, you know, they're interested in leadership. They they wanna figure out what their path forward is towards that and what that leadership role is. I get inspired when I look at both of you because, you know, when I was practicing in a firm, I would've I would've been so excited to have been promoted in the way that you both have been promoted. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there looking for that, and it speaks so highly of ZGF and LS three p that they recognize your leadership and they're willing to promote at an early age, you know, subjectively per industry standards. So I wanna ask, what characteristics do you think are most successful for, navigating and and making that jump to go from team member to team leader?

D So one thing about leadership is it's so personal and unique to all of us. So I'm likely gonna share characteristics that are slightly different than Amy. And if you ask 3 or 4 other leaders, that'd all be different. And that's because ultimately, we are wanting to get to our best version of ourselves. So for me, I can think of 3 principles or practices that I try to maintain for myself. And one is curiosity and it goes back to that exploring opportunities and continuing to grow as an individual. So, while it might feel some days like we've arrived or we've accomplished what we need to accomplish, there's always opportunity to learn to grow whether that's a new, role or it's just getting better at what we're doing. So that's one thing.

D Cooperation is definitely an important part of leadership and that's simply how how can I best advance the collective goal and then support and, help others advance in what their goals are? And then last, really important to me is authenticity and that gets back to being our best versions of ourselves. And so looking for ways in which your unique skills and interests align with the goals and aspirations of the firm. So that's what we're looking for is where can you uniquely add value that's specific to your yourself in whatever organization it is that you're in.

E I agree with you, Megan. I think that, you know, my leadership skills and what I strive for in leadership and what we would look for is is definitely there's similarities, but they're also personal and each person is gonna have their own passion that come to their work with as well. So, for me, you know, I feel like all leaders should have a drive to do good in their work and really make an impact with it, as well. They should have a desire to really help grow others. And that way you can really kind of expand kind of what you're able to accomplish beyond yourself when, when you're doing the work. And I think that that is one of those critical skills that all leaders should have.

D Yeah. I was just talking with an emerging professional in our office this week, and it made me realize that, while these, softer fun skills are really fantastic and great to talk about, there's also some, really technical business side of things that we have to learn. So one, skill that's certainly important and needed for us to lead well in our industry is strategic thinking. And that's really as simply as, understanding how your part fits within the whole and how do people within your organization connect to one another. And that's important because then when you have an idea and you bring it forward and present it to someone, you're bringing forward a case that is believable and can be implemented and that'll that will help move things along, more quickly. And then, of course, tying into that is learning to listen and communicate. Just wanna highlight the opportunities to lead in a, quiet leadership. And so that doesn't mean just sitting behind your desk and cranking out details all day, but it might be thinking about we could do this process in a better way.

D Starting to explore that on your own, sharing that with your teammates, sharing it with, your project leader, your team leader, and those types of things start to develop and expand your sphere of influence in your career.

E I feel like a lot of this stuff isn't taught in school. Right? It's all stuff that, yeah, I'm, I'm sure you as well, Megan. But I had to learn on the job and learn as I've grown. And, you know, listening and communication are are those really important skills that like are are some of the the most critical to the roles that we play, but aren't strong strong understanding of themselves and how they relate to others. It's the soft skills or the, what we call, like, emotional intelligence skills, that kind of self awareness building. Cause when you know how, how you, who you are and how you relate to others, you can really start to kind of help build others up and really kind of be more impactful as a leader. So, for me, those are are really critical skills to build as well.

B Listening to the 2 of you talk, Meaghan, you even talked about how you were recently talking to someone. I'm soon assuming it was out of the usual kind of quarterly, yearly, annual cycle review. So there's this notion of constant feedback. To the 2 of you, what does a culture of constant feedback look like, and is there a means of more formal reviews that falls within that structure as well?

D Yeah. Evelyn, you're you're right. It was not part of the formal review process. She reached out to me and said, hey. I wanna share my 5 year goals. And I was, like, like, that's fantastic. You're more ambitious than I am. So over coffee, we had a we had a fantastic conversation.

D But I certainly think that the formal review process and adding some structure, to the process is important. We many of us have had bad experiences with that but there can be some really great ways, to put in place a consistent connection with your leader, your mentor, your coach. Re recently, looking back at a book that I read, Radical Candor, Kim Scott talks about her partner whose approach to career conversations was really unique. And he used a framework of 3 career conversations. The first was getting to know, his team members, past. The next was, getting to know their future and what their goals were, whether they matched with the companies or not. He wanted to know what they were. And then the third was sitting sitting together and working on how can, we shape your current position to work you towards developing the skills and experience that you need to move towards those goals.

D And I think what's really special about that is it was very structured but also personal and so I think that's, one of the keys to creating a meaningful formal structure is you want a repetitive cadence, but you want it to be intentional and purposeful between the leader and, the individuals that they're supporting.

E That's a great book, Megan. I'm glad you brought that in. You know, for me, with constant feedback, it's important to share not only when someone needs improvement, but where they're succeeding as well. I think that really comes to, like, this, you know, this constant kind of, feedback loop because you don't wanna just give someone kind of, like, you know, the the constructive feedback because then it's not gonna be as impactful as when you can share kind of where they're succeeding and and help them understand where their their, where their skills are and and where where they're, you know, where they have better skills than others perhaps. Being clear, timely and specific is also really helpful. So, that timeliness is is where we get that kind of, like, why it might be constant feedback because it needs to happen right when feedback is necessary. If something happens during a meeting and you wanna tell someone they did a great job on their presentation, be specific about what about that presentation was good. Was it how they presented the design to the client? Or, use specific things, whenever you're talking with someone about feedback.

E And then when setting the tone for a culture of feedback, I also think that leaders should also ask for feedback themselves. I think it should be a two way conversation. And in opening up the people that you're mentoring or giving feedback to, I think it's really important to, to be open to feedback yourself because it really does create that culture of feedback and, and really kind of helps helpful. And, and, you know, like they could be on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be you know, how far a person's grown and changed over a set duration. And I think having those markers in time is really important and impactful. So having, you know, having a culture of constant feedback doesn't necessarily mean that formal reviews go away. They can be a really great opportunity to kind of focus the conversation around growth goals and growth, in particular.

D An experience I had where a that formal relationship started to shift into a relationship of mutual feedback and development. So, had a team member who came to me, during the typical review process and she said she felt like she was stagnating in her career. And, with a lot of courage and vulnerability, she approached me with that. It's hard it's hard to tell your leader that you feel like you're struggling but just, awesome that she was felt comfortable doing that. And I I, of course, I went to the immediate response re reassuring her of her potential, you have value in the organization which is often the end of where, you know, that's where conversations end a lot of times, because we feel like we've done our part. But thankfully, she didn't settle for that. She continued to push me and asked for some truly candid feedback. She asked for specifics, that she could work on to develop her own career and, you know, what were the skills that she was missing? Why wasn't she moving forward? And I realized that with my praise without that specific advice I really wasn't helping her advance.

D I wasn't doing her any good in that. And I think probably the biggest benefit to that conversation was actually the development of our relationship with one another because having that first conversation where we had very open and transparent feedback opened us up that we have an exceptionally open relationship now, and we can quickly offer that feedback so that after a presentation as we're walking out, we know we have that relationship of trust and care that we can either one of us quickly share, you know, it might have been better to do x, y, or z in a way that would have been less comfortable if we had not had that candid conversation previously.

B We have an audience question that was really looking at about, you know, are there certain people that we should seek out feedback from? I think, Megan, you just gave an, like, an excellent example of somebody within the workplace. And I think that's where a lot of this conversation is actually focused. Can either Megan, you or Amy really talk about I mean, what you're talking about is a culture of feedback. So, that means that eliminates somewhat of a barrier for even the the summer intern to come up to the leaders of the firm and really ask for feedback. Do any of you want to speak more specifically about building that into the company culture?

E I could probably start, Megan, if you wanna jump in. So, you know, at CGF, we really have a culture of project teams. And so, the people who you're working with are are your what I would consider probably the most impactful people to ask for feedback from because you're working directly with them on a day to day basis. So, I, it, for, for us, it really doesn't matter who that team member is. Anyone on the team can provide that type of feedback that you might be seeking, specifically as it relates to your work. I think there are opportunities for you to get feedback from others outside of your own firm, but they really have to understand, 1, like, what, I guess, what type of feedback you're you're looking for. And and 2, can really speak, with enough kind of not not necessarily authority, authority is not the right word, but authority on kind of the feedback or or what you need from them. So making sure that you and that person knows you well enough to give you the appropriate feedback.

E And then also understands what you're actually looking for in terms of feedback. So being clear both, on kind of what you're looking for, but then also making sure that they know you well enough to be able to provide that.

D Yeah. I think that's great thinking about team structure. Asking anyone within your team is fantastic. I also encourage leaders to share that responsibility of leadership. I'm in an office of 60 people, and if, Steve and I tried to be the only leaders in the office, it might be a little chaotic. So one of the things we try to encourage is we have team leaders, but then even within that, truly every everyone is a leader and I read a really great book, recently. It was called Let Them Lead. It's about a hockey team.

D And the coach said, everyone's leading someone. The only people who might not be doing it, we call them freshmen. And I think that's something really neat when we think about the practice of architecture and you look within your team. And, I mean, if you've got even 3 months more experience than the next person, you have something that you could share. You know, here's where I found that or here's who I go to to talk to about that. So I I think that's really part of that culture of making it continuous and making it valuable. The only other thing I would add about external to, your firm, I I certainly find a lot of value there, especially as I move through my career and, my needs for advice, get more specific and a little more funneled, is then the people that I'm looking to for advice, I'm looking for some similar experiences. And I'm I'm, you know, specializing in some things that maybe I don't have as many peers within the organization.

D So, that's a great thing to start to think about even early in your career are who are people who are in similar industries, similar roles and positions that you can start to build those relationships for now and the future.

C So this conversation actually is heading in a really good direction for where we wanted to go anyway, and we got a comment from one of the participants who was mentioning that they have a perception or, a fear of, you know, maybe sometimes interrupting people. They don't wanna, you know, come across as unprofessional. I think it's usually a concern for people who are early starting out in their career. But I think this taps into a bigger elephant in the room that we should address in this conversation, which is about how do we break down these barriers in the office? And so, I know on podcasts, Amy had talked extensively about the idea of communication and empathy going hand in hand and the expectation that leaders really need to be cultivating those skills together. So I wanted to open up the conversation to talk about what advice you have for people who are meeting resistance or perceive barriers in their firm about how to, you know, promote values of communication and empathy and open transparency?

E That's a tough one, Janine. You know, I would, I would say put those communication and empathy skills to work for you. And it's obviously easier said than done. But I think, you know, the first important thing to do is listen to the other person and really try to understand their position. That's where you start. Right? You try to understand where they're coming from and what, what it is that is driving them to resist, what you're proposing. I think if you can try to really kind of understand where you might have common values and shared kind of interests within, within that, There's likely and obviously shared goal even if you can't get to that kind of like, you know, one that that might help you of doing good work and it was likely in line with the firm's mission. So, start there.

E And then get really curious and ask a bunch of questions and then really try to make a link from those commonalities and speak their language as well. So, whatever is driving them try to speak to what, what drives them in particular.

D Yeah. Amy, I think that's great about getting to know the other person and practicing that empathy yourself. As I think about it, it's really important to build a relationship and to demonstrate that you care about that person, you care about the success of the firm because that's going to, make anything that you're bringing forward to them. It's gonna frame it in a way that's, important to to them and to the firm and their organization. So I would say, one thing that I think is really important to note is that leadership is very personal and it's gonna show up differently in every one of us because it is it is a reflection of our values. And so as we're seeking to build relationships, offer feedback, suggestions, to other leaders, it's important to understand where their starting point is. So their their key value might not be communication and empathy, but that doesn't mean that you can't get to a spot where you're working together in a way that uses communication demonstrates empathy. But the way to help you get there is to understand how their value connects into it.

D So their value may be, I really want to bring together the team together in around collaboration. Well, communication and empathy are a really important part of doing that. And so then you can start to tie what's important to you into what's important to them and, come together around some team values, agreed upon practices. That's one thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately is because teams are many individuals coming together is what are the common things that we can agree upon. When we are a team, this is how we function together. This is how, we treat each other. This is how we contribute to our work. So I think those are important aspects to consider as as you're looking to change and transform the way that you and your teams work.

B We've talked about a lot about how we work in teams and obviously, how we work in teams in a hybrid practice is going to be different than how we worked in teams when we were all showing up regularly in the office. So how can we build on and learn from and and actually learn and maybe grow away from our reliance on these scheduled interactions to move to our more asynchronous work style. That seems to be continuing post pandemic. Right? I feel like the majority of the employees would rather be in the office less than than more. And have you found ways to integrate mentorship into that feedback loop? Because that seems, especially from principals and partners, to be kind of a really big crux when it comes to helping people grow, especially when they're spending most of the time remote.

E You bring up a really good point, Evelyn. And I think that, you know, with virtual work, the burden of mentorship has been placed on the mentee, frankly. Right? It it really the scheduled interactions, are likely gonna continue, which means that there's likely still, like, the, the mentorship relationship is still gonna be really the responsibility of the mentee to reach out and schedule things, which is unfortunate for, for many ways. And so I think it really requires both the mentor and the mentee to be really proactive in making time. As mentors, I think it's, it's that much more important to, you know, schedule time in your calendar for even if it's, informal kind of conversations to pick up the phone or your team's call or whatever and, and, and just have a conversation with an individual or, or schedule time, in between meetings, so that you have a little bit of a buffer to provide feedback in that kind of, real time way. I do know a lot of people, because we're in a virtual environment, are using technology to their benefit and mentorship in different ways. Right? You can give real, real time feedback via the chat function while you're actually on video and talking with someone. And so some of that I think is actually pretty beneficial because you can say, hey, that was a great point.

E You should Or or encouraging others to speak up in in meetings, behind the scenes without actually making them feel, like, it's put on the spot. And so, it gives people an opportunity to kind of coach and nudge, from afar. So, I'm excited to see kind of what that that does, to our culture when we're all back in person. But I'm hoping that that might continue. So there's kind of, you know, benefits and costs. So the, the current virtual, environment, but then also, how it might continue in hybrid.

D Amy, I think that's a great point to think about how are we going to take what we're learning and practicing from the pandemic from remote and how can we start to transform the way that we practice in general in the future, whatever that might be. That's definitely a perspective that I think we need to hold is, not only are we moving into a new normal, but how can we make that a better normal for ourselves and for our teams. And so as we're thinking about that, I think it's one of the things that we've had to do when we were remote, and even now as we're hybrid is be very intentional. And I think that is probably, possibly one of the most important lessons that we as leaders, can take away from this and being intentional with mentorship and feedback. So let's stop burdening the mentee with the process of reaching out and let's start scheduling conversations, check ins in a way that it starts to change the culture. Let's be intentional about pairing people so that they can learn from one another. And then just planning for, what our times together look like. So often, it's easy to say, let's let's go grab coffee.

D That's great. But sometimes taking the additional effort to prepare ideas ahead of time, What is it that you wanna share? Possibly even reaching out to that person prior to the coffee and saying, here's how I would like to, invest in you. What what do you want to bring to the conversation? What questions do you have? So always starting those conversations with go with a goal for a goal and a purpose for why you're coming together and then concluding with what are our plans for next steps. And that's not saying we're assigning something to the mentee to do necessarily, but how are we gonna follow-up and how are we gonna continue in this relationship?

C One of the things that I've been doing with my clients is really helping them think about how to design mentorship systems within the firm. So, actually, Megan and I are working together to help. It's it's through the lens of leadership, but it is mentor leadership and mentorship go hand in hand. So I do think that what they're talking about and ZGF already has the structure, but having, like, really clear channels in place within the firm to support conversations on mentorship is a really good first step. And if you don't have a mentorship program, you should be talking about that within your studio about what what should your mentorship program look like? What ways can you start to create those systems if they don't exist? And I think that just trying to start those conversations helps to build the increased discussion around those conversations, if that makes sense. So the more that you talk about it, the more that you open up the door for the culture of that to exist. So, anyway, Evelyn, I know you wanna jump back into this other really good question about remote work, so I'm gonna hand it off to you.

B No. I mean, I think your your point is well taken, and it bridges the, you know, what Megan was emphasizing about the intentionality around all of this. My approach, I think this is something that I've, like, been repeating myself when I finally found ways to put a word words around it. But, you know, we so much of what we have been doing coming out of remote work and looking at return to office has been making a comparison to how we did things in the past. And if you think about it, we actually never thought if how we did things in the past was truly the best way to do them. So as we move forward and, you know, hopefully, as leaders and the future leaders of firms look at and analyze things, I hope that we're not constantly saying, you know, this is how we used to do it. Because we don't know if like, there was no measurement of how how successful was how we used to do it. And instead, kind of reimagine from the past with the notion that, you know, we wanna be a more flexible office.

B So what does that mean for us in terms of how we develop mentorship and growth and do professional development and education within the firm? All that is to say that we have a question about kind of other opportunities and or obstacles that have manifested maybe a little bit outside of mentorship. So have you identified a few other areas maybe for for improvements or a few other areas of lessons learned as we are kind of responding and embracing new challenges and and struggling with the great resignation, but also, like, having a lot of work on our plates right now?

D I will take a pass at that first. So I I certainly think we're gonna continue to feel the lingering effects of this into next year. 2020 was hard, 2021 had its unique challenges, and 22 is gonna bring us, an another another batch of them. I think in terms of opportunities, what I have seen as one of the greatest opportunities in our firm, with 9 offices is going into this remote state collaboration across offices and really looking for who is the right person to contribute to this task, this project, this effort in a way that, both advances our team and really enhances the work that we're doing. So that was a happy, find that we could have easily found, 5 years ago. But the, you know, pandemic really pushed us into making that more normal so that we we could just focus on doing the work together. So that's one thing that I would love to see us continue to advance further. Obviously as we start to think about remote work thinking about even recruiting of talent.

D Does it have to be within your city limits or could it be anywhere. I know that's that's a challenging, conversation, for people. But I think that an obstacle that I see is a little less about remote work and more just the atmosphere of, and the state of things is we are still all tired. As as a community not only in architecture but just as a society right now. And I think that the challenge for leaders and for firms is what does it look like to create balance for our teams, in the work that we do, the efforts that we put forth, and, even even growth. We're experiencing a lot of growth coming out of last year because everything kind of went on hold, and then it's like everyone decided to do 2021 in the same year. So how how do we do that well? So that I think those are obstacles that we're gonna face and it it it's, I think, Evelyn, that's a great challenge of how can we use remote technologies to help us overcome those obstacles is certainly something we'll need to be looking at as leaders.

E Megan, you had the two points that I was thinking about in my head. So, you know, z ZGS experienced the same thing. We have 7 offices on both, kind of, that flank kind of both coasts of the North America. And, and the pandemic and, and work, the virtual work really allowed us to work across office boundaries seamlessly. We have project teams, working together in different offices. And it really has allowed us to to make, build our teams, with the right people, and and utilizing kind of the full full breadth of our people and not just kind of, in in one office. I think, you know, as we return to office and especially in a hybrid kind of environment, there are gonna be challenges with with this kind of approach of of teaming teams and and bringing people together across office boundaries. And I think it is gonna rely on, project teams in particular to really make sure that if there is a remote employee or an employee in a different office, that they're not missing out on the kind of those interactions that are happening offline when you can, you know, turn around and talk to someone right in the office.

E So that that I think is gonna be a challenge, but nothing that we can't overcome. I, I'm it really excites me that we have the ability to really kinda pair mentors beyond our office boundaries. Our traditional kind of advisor advisee program had usually been contained within each office. And now we're able to utilize kind of the full breadth of of the firm and and pair and and make those pairings based off those people's interest and the right person to either mentor or or be a med, mentee. So that that's what I'm I'm most excited about.

B So there's a question that says, as a leader in the architecture practice, do you look for emerging professionals who want who would be great leaders to recognize their own potential? Or do you try to cultivate it within the person? I would say both and, but, I'll let you 2 jump in here.

E I would say both. Yeah. I would say both and as well. I think, you know, when when we're looking at at kind of building the next generation's leadership, both within our firm and also when we are when I'm, you know, part of my role is hiring and and recruiting. There are things that you can teach someone and there are things that are inherent in within someone. And I think both are very critical to understand and distinguish. So that then you can help someone grow and, and, and, and into a role. Understanding where someone's starting and where they're really kind of wanting to grow is also really important so that you can help fill in the gaps with either opportunities on a project by placing them in a role that then can help them get to the next role, or with training opportunities to help them get there as well.

B So I just wanna jump in here and add something. So, I'm a bit of an introvert by nature too. Right? So I think part of identifying people is just giving individuals, especially earlier on in the career, the the confidence that they might not know that they didn't have to move forward. So that's kind of the identification process. I often see some really talented individuals who just are, for any reason, personality or otherwise, just not really willing to put themselves out there even though they're ready to.

C Yeah. I will agree on that. I mean, I'm a I'm I think I'm the lone extrovert on the call right now, on the panel. But it in working in so many different architecture studios, I do think that there are there architecture attracts introverts. It is a great place for introverted leaders. One of the challenges that I would say is that, the tendency to not participate or to not put your voice out there or to not, take an opportunity to lead is a huge missed opportunity because you guys have so much great knowledge to share, but you have to find the way in which you can do it. And so I will say that the 3 leaders that are introverts on this call, Amy, Megan, and Evelyn, each are different types of introverted leaders, and they bring their strengths. And I think particularly they lead in different ways, and they've learned how to leverage their talents as introverted leaders still in a in a visible and and forward facing way with the firm.

C So, I would just encourage anyone who's in that space to just challenge yourself a little bit and find what works best for you. And for the extroverts out there, you might be the minority in the office. And so I think just know that, like, sometimes the introverts think you're a little overwhelming. That's at least my case. But, there's a role for you too, and that you can complement the leadership skills that, they have to offer. So it's a nice balance across the office.

D I think that's a great point that you made, Janine. And, I I think also thinking about redefining or clarifying what leadership is. It's not merely the CEO, but starting to, help our teams. And and those of us who can do that, it's really, you know, anyone who's got a couple years with the firm can start to, show other people where there are opportunities to lead within initiatives, projects, anything that's going on within the organization.

C Great. There are 2 more questions I wanna mention. 1, someone asked, what do they do? And I've had asked, like, I didn't get this nurturing environment. So, like, how do I, you know, seek that out? So for for people that, like, have not had that experience and don't know what that culture is like or don't know what the norms are for that, I think that there's a ton of research out there that you can look into to get exposure to it in your own time and and videos, reading, like, whatever your podcast, whatever you're interested in. But my recommendation to you is that you find the people in your office who have that tendency naturally, and you encourage them. And then you as a as a emerging leader need to model that behavior. And even if it feels foreign at first, like, I think small progressive things really add up over time. So things like, you know, really trying to take a moment to compliment your team or someone on your team when they do something good.

C Those really small moments mean so much to people. And you don't have to do big things out of the gate, but you can start small and grow over time. It's all about introducing some of those new behaviors into the office to disrupt and change the culture. And so, Evelyn asked if, we want to do a quick final takeaway since we're coming to the conclusion of our panel. So Amy and Megan, what top tips can you leave our listeners with today from this discussion? What do you want them most to walk away with?

E You know, and maybe I'm gonna be a broken record from a podcast episode to podcast episode, but I can't stress enough the importance of listening as a leader. And I think that speaks a little bit to the the your your comments about being an introvert, Janine. You know, there's power in being quiet and power in listening because you can really start to understand where the other person is coming from. And that gets, you know, to my, my, like, my, my stance on leadership, leading with empathy or leading with an understanding of where the other people are, where people are coming from. And you can't, you can't do it very effectively if you don't really take time to be curious about that person and listen and understand. And I think that goes hand in hand with mentorship and also feedback as well. Really trying to understand where someone else is coming from. If you're a mentor, like getting to know your mentee is really important and listening to what they need as a mentee.

E And, and I mean, all of us on this call and, and probably all of you out there are in a position where you could be a mentor and a mentee at the same time. And I feel like it's, not often talked about that if you are a mentor, there's you're probably getting something or, you know, the equal amount in in back from that relationship that you have with a mentee. So, I think, you know, trying to find that synergy with someone else I think is really important. And so my takeaway would be definitely, you know, continue to build, communication and listening skills.

D I think that's great, Amy. To add on to that, I'll I'll try to answer these quickly so we can get to a few other questions. I think really self discovery and committing to being your best self, would be one of my top ones. And then another one that we haven't really touched on much, but has become increasingly important to me is finding the right partner or partners to develop yourself and move, your career forward. I, met with a mentor a couple years ago and she shared a story about her relationship with her partner. And it just changed the way that I looked at career, completely to the point of who I work with being more important than what it is that I do. And so I I just wanna encourage people to consider that as well. It's not about climbing a ladder.

D At the end of the day, the work that we do and who we do it with is what's important.

C So we have 2 more questions, and we wanna, you know, make sure we answer those. So one asks, how can rising leaders better connect with those who already have a strong leadership presence in the firm in order to work on how to grow in the into those positions?

D The easiest answer is talk to them. I know you're I know you're probably looking for something a little more specific than that. I would say, look for what they are trying to move forward and offering to help. And help in a way that you're working with them shoulder to shoulder because then you're practicing that and it could be, I think, about some of the side projects that I work on, like, how can we better find report our financials to our project managers? I can both serve our our leader who's doing that, and I'm also learning at the same time. So, quick answer to that.

E I think my quick quick answer would be to talk to them as well. But I think, you know, even even that, like, that takes a leap of kind of like energy or it takes, it takes confidence to ask someone to, to copy or to talk about themselves. And I think that a lot of people are happy to talk about themselves and where, where they've come from. And so an easy way to, you know, to start a conversation if you want to get to know someone and, and start a relationship is just ask them how did you get to where you are? And, and you'd be surprised at how often someone would be more than willing to talk about themselves for a whole hour. And then that gives you an end to really kind of then

B ask more questions and start to develop a relationship, beyond as well. Just, like, take those take those opportunities to practice the the small things. Right? So even if it's just saying hello, like, right in the kitchen when you're both pouring a cup of coffee, it it doesn't it can start with a simple hello until you, like, get the confidence to kind of build up into a a bigger conversation. I also want to say a lot of the things that we have talking about been talking about is really professional development within the firm setting. And I would encourage people or, you know, to acknowledge Meghan is is so well read. She's already mentioned multiple business books and and other mentors and mentees that, or other individuals that she's reached out to outside of the firm that, I I I can't think of a single person even in the technology space that can say, like, I got all the professional development that I needed from within my company. So I would also kind of encourage people to look outside the company as well for opportunities for for growth, not necessarily with the intention of leaving the company, just knowing that you're not gonna find all the answers there.

E Yeah. That's a really great point, Evelyn. I think that's something I didn't touch on, in, on, on today's presentation. But it's, it's think about what you're interested in and how it may help further your growth professionally. So, for me, I really needed support in how I presented myself verbally and and how I present, with within my work. I was really into, you know, yoga. I practiced yoga in college and and it was my stress relief and my workout, all, you know, until now even. And I would I realized that if I went through yoga teacher training, it would allow me to really have the time and space to kind of, practice how I spoke and how I talked out loud.

E It also then, you know, you know, helped me learn how to hold space for others, which is a completely different way of of leading. But for me, you know, yoga teacher training and then subsequently teaching yoga in a very regular, cadence has allowed me to really confront the words coming out of my mouth and both confront that. I'd say the, the, the voice within my head of, the, the self talk over like, oh, wow, that word came out weird. Or like, wow. I said a ton of times tonight. Like, and and get comfortable with it, in a way that would I would have never gotten that experience in architecture or in the work that I was doing in my firm at the time. And so I'd encourage everyone, to think about the things that they do outside of architecture as a potential way of continuing their growth, that could benefit their careers as well.

C We have one more really important question I wanna get to before we run of time. And that is someone asked, what do you do when you're in a situation when the person that's managing you doesn't have great leadership skills and they don't know how to lead with empathy and they don't know how to empower their team. It creates a barrier and for growth and promotion. So how can emerging professionals navigate this? Megan.

D Okay. So I'll try to do it quickly so we can the hardest question we'll try to do the quickest. I I'm gonna answer it from a large firm perspective. So this is gonna be different and probably more challenging in a smaller firm. In a larger firm, I would look for an advocate. So who is someone who might be appear to that person who you could talk with, explain your situation, and ask for support. Sometimes frankly there are just situations that we need someone else to help us with, within the overall structure of the system. If if you are in a smaller firm where you don't have that type of support or don't have someone that you feel like you could trust, I guess I would seek to understand or reflect on my own situation.

D Is it my perception or is it reality? A little bit of that, and then it would come back to our our, vision like, our values aligned in a way that I think we can get there with a conversation. And honestly, at some point, if they're not, you you need to be in a place environment where you can grow and you can develop into the person that you need to be. And sometimes that is that is a hard decision of leaving, leaving an organization or moving teams within an organization. So it's that is a hard decision to make when is the right time to make that shift, but I'm not gonna say that's never gonna be the solution because sometimes it will be.

C Yeah. Really well said, Megan. And I experienced this in my career. And I would say if I could go back and do it again at a medium to small size firm, sometimes I the story would get so big in my head, I'd be too angry to be able to have a conversation about it. And if you can get to a place where you're not angry about it and have the hard conversation, I think there's a lot of value there. And I would if I could go back, I would try that now as a as a person who has more experience. So to challenge yourself to see if you can get there. And to Megan's point, like, if you you can't change to someone, then it's and it's not in a good fit, then just move on.

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