Architecture, And: Alexandra Donovan on What Prefab Asks of Architects

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is brought to you by our partner, Kestrel Labs. Kestrel checks your Revit model against the code while you're designing, not after. Kestrel checks the code. Architects keep the judgment. Learn more at kestrellabs.com. Welcome to Practice Disrupted, the podcast on the business of architecture and how it's changing. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, FAIA NOMA, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or rethinking what practice looks like, this show gets into how architects actually change the way they work.

A Hello, disruptors. Welcome back to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Architects have been told that building in a factory is about to change everything for about as long as I have been in the profession. I remember seeing one of the first lead platinum modular homes delivered in Santa Monica close to twenty years ago and thinking, it's here. It has kept not quite arriving ever since. And I wanna ask somebody who has actually stacked a building why. Alexandra Donovan is director of product design at the American Housing Corporation, which builds row homes in its own factory in Austin. Her mom is an architect, so she thought she knew what she was signing up for.

A At Cornell, she worked in the fabrication shop and helped design and build Annabelle's Grocery, a student run store that is still open today. It was the first time she had to design to a real budget. She started off her career at SHOP Architects, working on the ion in Houston and the academic building extension at FIT. Then the partnership pulled her into research that would become AssemblyOSM. And they told her that if she wanted to stay on it, she had to leave her other projects. She was a year and a half out of school. She went and spent the next six years there, starting out owning walls as a product, then ceiling, then floors, and ending up guiding all of product development. We get into the day assembly stacked as pilot building in Brooklyn, eight modules in one Saturday, and nobody could find a dumpster because there wasn't one on-site.

A Alexandra is just as direct about what came after when the finishing work ran well past the schedule, and what she learned from interviewing the team about why. We talk about why keeping a factory's lights on is so hard, the two approaches she thinks have the best chance, and what architects would be doing if more buildings were designed as products. Let's get into it. Hi, Alexandra. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. I'm so glad and happy to have you join us.

B Thank you for having me. It's an honor.

A So I've been starting with a relatively softball question recently. When you are at a cocktail party or in an environment where you're meeting people for the first time, when someone else... From outside of the industry asks you what you do, what do you often tell them?

B I do start by saying I'm an architect by training, but I thought I work in construction innovation or construction tech and really at the intersection of climate and housing. And then more specifically that I work on designing prefabricated systems that leverage the precision of manufacturing to deliver buildings differently than we... The way we've been building for hundreds of years. So moving more from kind of stick built, if you think about conventional construction, towards more of a LEGO mentality.

A That was a lot of wars that I don't think even some architects would understand. Okay. Fair enough. No. No. I'm just saying I... I'm wondering what the feedback you get is from somebody who's like, oh, is that, like, really cool or is it, like... Do you find them asking a lot more questions and prodding?

B Yes. I find it's kind of a fifty fifty split. Some people have heard of modular construction or prefab more typically. So they sort of understand that, you know, there's construction happening of some sort in more of a factory setting. And so then we can usually kind of... They usually come with some sort of preconception of prefabrication, then we kinda get into teasing out. Okay. What is the specific kind of prefab that I have worked on? But if someone doesn't have that familiarity, I think talking about...

B Especially volumetric modular as you're building parts of a building, big parts, the parts size that you can fit on a truck in a factory setting. It's more controlled. It's safer year round and more comfortable, all those good things. And then you're put... You know, putting the parts on a truck, bringing them to site, and stacking them like LEGOs. And so a lot of the sort of interesting problem solving and intellectual property happens at the connections between those LEGO parts.

A I have a follow-up question to that from an architect side because I feel like modular... And the response to modular and prefab has been both negative and positive from the architect side. You're nodding, so there's a little bit of an agreement there. What do you find is the response from architects more recently?

B I would say there's also a fifty fifty split. I think for some people, they come in with this, like, almost an eye roll. Like, oh, yes. Like, either... Even prefab general, like, there's a long history, of course, of prefab, or it's towards the more recent sort of space race to do modular well. And there are a number of start ups in that space. So some people are familiar with that, and some people are really excited about that. I think there's...

B Sometimes there's almost a... There's just... There is a fascination. I think maybe more than 50% are really fascinated by, like, oh, like, I think people understand how much sort of tedious grunt work goes into the way we typically build really bespoke projects, one off projects every single time. So there is this desire to leverage our expertise as designers and as, you know, the broader construction team to, you know, rinse and repeat. And people see the the potential of that. I think, generally, yeah, there is an awareness of either the kind of the long term stigma that prefab is cheap or ugly, and that's very typical.

A Or the mobile home, I feel like, is often associated, right, with the the stamped out creations.

B Absolutely. Or, you know, Soviet concrete prefab, you know, high rise housing. Yeah. Very kind of brutal. So that's... That definitely is sort of the bedrock perception, but I think that some people have been exposed to kind of glimmers of much more beautiful, you know, prefab, whether it's single family homes or, you know, the many companies that are innovating and innovating with even CLT and and mass timber is also very... Has heavy overlap with prefabrication because of the nature of the material. So I think plenty of people are clued into that.

A Let's back up even further and talk about what drew you to architecture in the first place.

B Sure. So my mom is actually an architect, so I was exposed to the practice from an early age. And she's had the most kind of positive career and thinks of it very fondly. So I knew that I... I thought I knew what I was getting myself into, and I... Growing up was always artistic and loved problem solving. But knew I'd... I explored, but I didn't...

B I landed on, okay, I don't think I wanna go to art school, and I don't think I wanna be an engineer. Like, architecture continued to sort of be... To toe the line between those two worlds. And so I I applied to architecture school and then got there and, like, was thrown into the intensity of architecture school. And I think... I was like, mom, you didn't... Like, I didn't really understand what this is going to be. And she's like, oh, well, you're in it now.

B I also credit, I think, a lot of the way that I am, the way that I work to an extracurricular I did growing up called Destination Imagination, which some people... It's also related to Odyssey of the Mind, so some people are familiar with that group. But it is a global nonprofit competition that's all around creativity and problem solving and teamwork. And you work in teams of kind of five to seven students, and I did it from kindergarten through graduating high school with the same core team. So it was a big part of my life. But you were essentially responding to what they call challenges, and they kind of span from theatrical to engineering to structural, all sorts of different elements that you were solving for in the format of an eight minute skit. So it's very scrappy, very kind of working with a tight budget and, like, a lot of using recycled materials, but also working towards this production in March of every year. And it really embedded

A that

B sort of creativity and problem solving into everything that I do.

A And then you ended up at Cornell?

B Yes.

A And you mentioned in our earlier conversation that you ran the fabrication shops and led a renovation of Anna... Annabelle's Grocery?

B Yes. I I worked in the fabrication shop, so wood and metal and CNC, laser cutting, all that good stuff, which was a really nice just extension of the work we were doing in studio and getting to be a little more hands on with the tooling and, yeah, un... Both understand how the shop was run and how, you know, the different tools you could use for different functions, but also to help fellow students who came in and were trying to solve, you know, certain model issues and make certain things. And then Annabelle's grocery. I was drawn to the project originally because I was approached with a few other classmates to help this effort to start a student run grocery store on campus. They were... It was a group of students looking to address a pretty serious but under the radar issue at Cornell, which is food insecurity amongst students. You have a university with an amazing dining program, but that is optional after your freshman year, and it's also quite expensive.

B So lots of students, you know, logically go off of the meal plan, but then the nearest real grocery store at the time was all the way in Downtown Ithaca. It was, like, almost an hour walk. It was half an hour by bus. So created this real kind of inequality issue of access to groceries. So we were pulled in to help support the branding and design the initial space. They had acquired a space on campus. And I... I'm also a very food oriented person, so I was excited about the project in general.

B But I was hooked because it it became... You know, we were designing something fun, something entrepreneurial, and ultimately something quite meaningful that is still there, still operating.

A That's amazing.

B Thank you. I really loved working with this broader, like, more diverse student team. We were about 40 of us, at the peak. As you know, architecture students don't get out of studio much, so it was this nice view into all the other disciplines at the school. And I actually... Once the core design work for the store was done, I stayed on and just stayed on in the general leadership team. And it became my second biggest commitment outside of studio, I would say. I poured a lot into it.

A Wow. I mean, I would accept... Assume that there's some really interesting learnings coming from, like, building a physical project versus working on studio projects and one that still exists in the real world today, plus the notion of kind of the entrepreneurialism behind identifying your customers and their needs, and then how do you address that in a built space? What lessons kind of stand out to you from from that experience that you don't think you could have gotten in studio?

B That's a great question. I think it was the first time in a design context that I really encountered a budget. And fortunately, the Imagine that.

A A real budget.

B Yeah. You know, we were a handful of architecture students, so we were able to use the fabrication shops. We were able to sort of leverage. I mean, obviously, we're volunteering our time. So it was really came down to material and coordinating with Cornell's sort of facilities team that was managing the project. You know, they were doing some MEP work and other kinds of... There was a little bit of renovation to do. So we ourselves kind of designed and built the whole checkout area and shelving, like, basically, a CNC plywood design that we could cut at the shop and then bring to site, and we put it together.

B And they help us a little bit with final installation, but it was really hands on. So, yeah, I think working within those kinds of constraints, but, you know, still trying to lever... You know, squeeze the juice out of the budget that was there to make sure it met the needs of the store. And I think also remember that it wasn't about our flights of fancy from a design perspective. It was really about the the function and the feeling ultimately of being in that grocery store and how get used to the rest of its life.

A And then after Cornell, you landed at SHOP Architects.

B Yes.

A It is so interesting to follow SHOP alumni from a certain period of time in particular. But I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you were working on while you were there.

B Yeah. Absolutely. I was so excited to start a shop, and I was quickly kind of pulled into quite a steep technical learning curve. I think one that I I didn't... Again, I didn't really realize what I was getting myself into, but I, am very grateful for. So I worked on a a number of projects early on. My first project was the ion Innovation Center in Houston associated with Rice University. It was a adaptive reuse project of an old, like, a nineteen forties Sears department store.

B They were turning into a a kind of start up and innovation hub. I also worked on the academic building extension at FIT in New York City, and that involved a lot of facade design and just... Was just finally completed. And really quickly, I was pulled into what was in r and d at the time, which would eventually spin out into assembly. Very quickly, I was pulled into what was in r and d at the time, but the shop partners had been the architect of record on 461 Dean Street, which is a modular tower near the Barclays Center. That was coalescing with Schopp's sort of intricate facade detailing work and digital management through... Especially through CATIA and kind of direct to fabrication strategies. They were cooking up, you know, what if we took a more architect led swing at modular construction? And so I was asked to support the initial studies of, you know, what would a manufactured interior of a studio apartment look like, and how would it put together, and how would it feel? And then I was pulled back onto other projects.

B But when I heard that SHOP was pursuing venture capital and was gonna spin this out as its own company, I asked to get back involved. I thought it was something I could just sort of keep a foot in, but they actually gave me an ultimatum. They're like, we do need resources on this, you know, project. You need to leave your current project, which was FIT at the time. And so it was a difficult decision, but I was like, sure. Why? I was just so interested in what was going on with the modular work. So I worked on what would be assembly eventually for about a year from the shop side treating it as a project as, you know, they secured a seed round of funding, made a few first hires for the team proper as its own company. And after a year, I actually jumped over and joined the start up proper.

A Can you tell us a little bit more about that space? I mean, I feel like there are some of us how... That have probably heard how Assembly grew out of shop, but I think there's quite a few more that, like, didn't even realize that that kind of occurred. And to to whatever extent... It's interesting to me that you said that they kind of gave you an ultimatum, which in a way is a is a good thing. Like, I feel like innovation and architecture firms kind of die when the intent for time isn't necessary... Towards those innovative endeavors isn't necessarily held. So it would be great to hear your side of what it meant to be the startup within shop and then be a startup outside of shop.

B Yeah. Absolutely. It's confusing. So I think it's a really fair question, and I totally agree that having the... My bandwidth carved out to focus a 100% on assembly was... I've never... I've actually never thought about it that way, but I think it was really valuable because I've seen other sort of innovation efforts shop, but also just offices in general go very slowly because they're sidelined from, you know, typical paid projects. So this was great to be able to dive in.

B And we were essentially incubated at shop, which meant we were co located there. We had our own dedicated office space, but within the broader SHOP office. And then eventually, I think post pandemic, we moved to our even more... Our... A space that was even more separate from the rest of the SHOP office, but still in the Woolworth Building. And some of the partners at shop were very intimately involved in the assembly work, so we were doing design reviews with Bill and Chris Sharples and Corey as well sometimes every week. Sometimes it depended on sort of the phase of the company, but really going through detailed engineering to build the building system. So the system design that would be focused on mid to high rise multifamily, mainly for housing, but also a little bit of hospitality.

B And we were working with a whole team of outside consultants at the same time so that we had a lot of expertise on the team and then also reflected by consultants. So there was part of what I loved so much about it and immediately was that it was very interdisciplinary internally. I was working with different kinds of engineers, manufacturing people, supply chain, certainly a certain amount of real estate and development, thinking about how we were positioning ourselves in the market. And so it was nice to have... To be straddled between Shop and still kind of plugged into the Shop ecosystem and and also being able to leverage Shop's expertise where helpful, but also branching out into this broader effort.

A I think it was also an interesting time to make that transition in your career too, right? Because you mentioned the handful of really wonderful projects you were working on in SHOP and this commitment to... And I think people can already... I would hope people can already see the linkage to your current role, but also coming from the fabrication side at Cornell. Was it easy to kind of make that decision to go all in on this very particular direction? Like, a year and a half out of school, was that ever weighed in your decision making process at all?

B It was definitely a factor. I think it felt early, and it... That felt like a little bit... I was taking on a little bit of risk. And I think the flip side of that coin is that once I was working with assembly, I had to be learning about conventional construction in parallel all the time because we were always comparing to, well, how do we do things today? How does a normal stuff all get built out and compared to kind of the possibilities with different tooling and different sequencing and processes? So I had to sort of parallel path those efforts, but it definitely... Specializing so quickly was not part of my game plan. But I I think in that moment needed to follow my gut. It was just really exciting to me.

B And I also told myself, like, I can always go back with conventional architecture, normal... You know, architecture capital a is always going to be there and also has many exciting direct... Directions that are exciting to me. But I wanted... I knew that it was a window of opportunity that I needed to take in that moment when it was presented to me.

A So it's interesting to me that you are, like, making that. Because I think when people think about modular build, they don't realize that you're doing research on conventional stick building and how it's being done differently. What are other things that might be less obvious when it comes to designing a system that gets built in a factory and ship to site versus delivering on-site?

B Well, you're designing the end product, the sort of, you know, lit user experience, who's gonna live there, how will it be used, but you are also really involved in means and methods. And in a way that, you know, architects usually try to stay away from. And the means and methods are split between a factory setting and on-site setting. You know? Not all the work is done in the factory. You have to think about that division of scope. So that is a big mental shift. And in general, I think every single piece that you design is so tied to, again, the the kind of actual design and and the experiential side of it, but also the designing for manufacturing. So designing for houses going to get made and really getting input from manufacturing and suppliers and and materials folks early on in the process, and then procurement, and then assembly in the factory, and then installation, whether it's in the module or on-site, and really fine tuning the documentation for it all.

B Because you're changing the process of how a project is getting built, we really have to kind of redesign how we tell that story and for different audiences. So there are a lot of stakeholders involved, all of which I think moves us more towards thinking about a building or parts of a building as a product, one that can be reused. The design can be reused, and you will learn along the way through iteration and try to implement processes of continuous improvement of a product, which is a little bit different than typical construction.

A Can you speak to us about the time... Like, what did it means to work at a start up and kind of the many hats that you wear in the beginning and how that role and responsibility evolves over time as you grow as an individual too? What did that look like for you? It looks like you spent six years at Assembly. Correct?

B Yes. That's right. I wore many, many hats. I started out just as a, you know, as a designer supporting, I would say, nearly all the scopes, which was back to, you know, that moment in my career, really great for learning. I was exposed to everything from facade to MVP to finish floor selection and just every single bit involved. And then as the team started to grow, we were able to zoom in and specialize. So I started out owning walls as a product and then ceilings as a product. And then from there, you know, took on floors, millwork, interior finishes, and among others, but it sort of built up that way up to the point where we were building our first prototype, which was which was a one bedroom prototype that we call Alpha, which there I owned several scopes and was really involved in the design from start to finish and working closely with the suppliers who were delivering full components to us and then the installation team and and was, you know, hands on involved in installing in the factory as well since it's a prototype.

B So that specialization happened. And then as I had a better grasp on so many different scopes, my role started to zoom out again more to project implementation. So, you know, taking the building system, how does it get implemented on different sites? And we're working primarily in New York City where sites... Very few sites look the same. So we have to learn how to do feasibility studies really quickly and develop some of our own internal tools for automating feasibility, which there are many more of those on the market now with the advent of AI. But five or six years ago, that was really helpful for us to accelerate feasibility and understand if a site was appropriate for modular. So project implementation, and then by the end, I was really guiding all product development and trying to tie it together with architectural vision and really maintain that quality control of the product down to the product level, but also just what are we... What kinds of buildings are we making here and making sure that they they held a certain caliber architecturally.

B So amidst all of that, I also did a ton of marketing work, you know, got involved in business development, did a lot of graphic design all over the place because, you know, we just... We had to make it all happen as a small team. So I've... I played a lot of parties. Like, I I really enjoy all those different hats, and that's very true to a start up environment.

A Thanks to our partner, Kestrel Labs. Most code compliance still happens as review. You make the decision, produce the work, and find out later whether it complies. Kestrel checks code requirements against your Revit model while you design and shows you what was flagged and why tied to the requirement behind it. For me, the time saved matters less than what a firm does with it. Staff who learn the code as they need it and senior architects who have more time to mentor. Kestrel checks the code. Architects keep the judgment.

A Learn more at kestrellabs.com. Can you talk to us about one of the the buildings that you stacked? Right? 147 Saint Felix Mhmm. In Fort Greene. I mean, I think the most impressive thing about seeing modular, like, come to life in the field is just how quickly it comes to life in the field on the day of. So can you talk to us a little bit about that that project and anything it might have taught you along the way?

B Absolutely. So, yes, 147 Saint Felix was Assembly's pilot project. It was only... It is only three stories tall, so really a townhouse scale in a historic landmark district in Fort Greene. So we had to go through landmarks. It has a brick facade for that reason to match the surrounding context. So it was a little bit of an atypical. It wasn't the target typology for assembly, but it was a more reasonable scale for us to test the structural system for the kind of 15 to 30 story target height.

B And it was eight modules and... Which we stacked in one day, one Saturday in November. I personally was sort of up all night. I watched the mods leave the factory in Harrison, New Jersey around, I don't know, 09:00. And we had, you know, a film team, and we were taking photos. So they left the factory. They had to wait at the bridges until midnight to be led into the five boroughs, and then they arrived to site around 1AM. So I was I was already ready on the Brooklyn side with the team that was staging the mods.

B So then we had the crane set up around... Started setting up... Setting up around 4AM, and we started stacking at seven. And by maybe 04:00 in the afternoon, the crane was coming down. All eight mods were stacked. So that day was a huge success, and we, you know, we had basically had a block party all day watching each mod stack and we had, you know, brought in like a bunch of bagels or something like that. And at the end of the day, we were looking for somewhere to throw out this box and it just occurred to someone like, we don't have a dumpster on-site, which is very unusual. And so that is a really fun, I think, and powerful illustration of the level of kind of waste control and the impact that taking a different approach to how we put buildings together on-site, especially in a dense urban context where, you know, the typical kind of dust pollution, noise pollution, fuel from idling vehicles, all...

B Everything that goes on at a construction site, noise is just really disruptive to a neighborhood. And so if if you're away that weekend, you came back to a fully stacked building, which was pretty cool. So that was the stacking of Saint Felix. The mods arrived, you know, mostly finished. They have their kitchens. They have bathroom pods already tiled, mirrors on the wall. Like, a lot of lighting is installed. I would say they were, you know, 75% finished, but there is completion work to be done on-site.

B The roof need to go on because it was a brick facade. Usually, we wouldn't try to install the facade in the factory, but for this project, the brick was laid on-site as a requirement from Landmarks. So that took some time. So all this to say that one of the biggest lessons learned is that the on-site completion work stretched well beyond target dates. And I did some work after that project to study and actually interview members of the team to understand what went wrong with the on-site completion and why it was so difficult. And what I found is truly was death by a thousand cuts. You know, there were lots of technical challenges. There were things that were not quite handed off well from the factory to the on-site team.

B There was team fatigue and all of that as it as it dragged on. There were definitely documentation and just communication issues. So all these factors to say that it's a really important... I find it to be a really important part of what we need to solve in this world of prefab and offset construction because we did a lot right in the factory, but where it intersects with, you know, the more conventional construction teams and, like, working together across what are often silos in architecture and construction and engineering is a really important aspect to solve. And it involves a lot of soft skills and sort of retooling of how we communicate both through drawing and, you know, verbally.

A That's an interesting... I mean, because I was originally, I think, introduced to you through Brian's Boyers paper, the chain drain. So that in itself is just kind of a really interesting illumination of even though as we change, like, delivery processes, like, there is still a bit of that that drain in the handoff and lots of learnings to to be had.

B Yes. Absolutely. And I think we have so much of the technology to solve these problems, and we're gonna have more. But we have to remember the human side because, yes, it creates a lot of change. Right?

A So I love your passion about the fact... And just, like, it is kind of interesting that there was no dumpster on-site, but your passion around materials and, like, the control around the materials and understanding really what is going into every aspect of the building. If you're not working with a general contractor, he's working with the subs to get various different procurement of materials and kind of knowing where all of that comes from. You and Allison Burnett wrote about forced labor, and I don't think it's honestly looked at in a similar way where it has been illuminated in the fashion industry per se. But you were looking at forced labor in the building material supply chains after the design for freedom summit. How has that work changed the way that you continue to think about just materials and the entire building chain process?

B Yeah. I'm I'm really glad you asked about that. I think the Grace Farms Foundation has been doing amazing work, leading this work to expose and, you know, work to eliminate forced labor in the construction supply chains. Like you said, clothing, kind of fast fashion has really increased the awareness and the kind of general public awareness of what is going into the clothing that we buy. I think the same has happened for food and sort of fair trade efforts, especially in certain, you know, be it chocolate or coffee, certain industries, construction is riddled with this, you know, similar challenges where a lot of the materials that go into our buildings are often mined. So copper, all the metals, ingredients that go into cement, gypsum, and they are often sourced from just areas that have really high risk of forced labor and unsafe working conditions. And it's very hard to have transparency into the supply chain because you might feel like you know you're a supplier, and you might sort of know where they're sourcing materials that go into a component. But often, it's like nine or 10 steps down the supply chain that you really have no visibility into.

B So I think the way that it has changed my work is that it really is something in the back of my mind all the time kind of alongside carbon footprint, although we have less data on it the way that, you know, at least we have better tools now to assess carbon. So I think there's so much work to do, and a lot of it can be supported by actually the, you know, digital tools in architecture. As... Well, as an assembly, we collaborated with SHOP to develop a tool that tapped into kind of Fair Supply is an organization that has created and manages a global database tracking the risk of forced labor in the supply chain. So tying that database in... That data to the models that we're designing with and actually, you know, tagging risk with a color so that you could assess which components of the building were carrying the highest risk based on where they're being sourced and see if there was any opportunity to mitigate that risk. So that is one small way to be more thoughtful about what is going into a design. It's a topic that needs to be tackled from many different angles.

A Absolutely. I want to focus this a little bit more on what you're doing now and your overall career path. And we mentioned this kind of in the architect's reaction to hearing about prefab and modular. It's not new, right, to the industry, but I feel like there are moments when we're like, oh, it's arrived. Definitely, I felt that in living homes when I saw the first LEED Platinum modular home delivered in Santa Monica. That was, I don't know, I wanna say almost two decades ago now, and I've seen their evolution as well. What really is preventing this from taking off in a way that I think some people would hope that it would take off more?

B Absolutely. It's the biggest question I think we're all asking ourselves. And maybe a frustrating answer, but I... It's my current thesis is that it is a combination of all the hurdles it takes to get this kind of operation off the ground. You know, we're... You're fighting against a very risk averse industry, not just construction, but also development. And people who are, like, have been making money on on projects the way they've been doing it for many, many years, so it takes a lot to convince them to change the process. And then it takes a lot of capital to actually...

B You know, if you take the approach of opening a factory and operating it and needing... You know, in order to make this transition from a a typical construction mentality to more of manufacturing mentality, you need enough repetition to warrant the tooling, like the investment in the manufacturing line that can create, you know... They benefit from repetition. Right? And as architects and just moving through the world and designing for a different context, repetition is really challenging. I think maybe people outside of design have a hard time understanding that, but we are constantly adapting to different conditions. And so this game of finding the opportunity for repetition is possible but challenging. And so many, I think, amazing companies have tried and failed because keeping keeping a factory's lights on is really challenging. So I think I've found that the greatest chances for success from what I have seen are at kind of the two ends of the spectrum of either working really incrementally, so maybe not operating your factory.

B You know, maybe having a more distributed approach where you're tapping into existing factories, whether they're modular, whether they are facade suppliers, but where you can actually help fill gaps in a factory pipeline and coordinate the assembly of a building, but not have a dedicated facility. Or at the opposite end of the spectrum, which, you know, I know we'll get to American housing, but a vertically integrated approach where you are controlling your own destiny a little bit more, and it helps mitigate the risk of, you know, both kind of that developer guinea pig version of not wanting to build the first three projects, but a lot of developers are bought into the concept, are just waiting for it to prove out. So I think there are a lot of people waiting in the wings, and that can be really frustrating as well to actually get this off the ground. So... And I I also think that a lot of jurisdictions and kind of at the state level or at the city level see the promise and are working with couple of companies and designers, in some cases, developers to help support the the industrialized construction industry. And so that should help kind of alleviate some of the hurdles because there's also code and there is zoning and inspection processes. Just like every little step along the way is very challenged because it's changing the way that we typically do things and because buildings are all about... You know, we have to think about health and safety.

B There are a lot of there's a lot of infrastructure. Code is just one of those aspects to make sure that we're building in a controlled and safe way.

A So you alluded to kind of where we were heading with the American Housing Corporation. Tell us a little bit about your role there and what you're doing with them.

B Sure. So I am director of product design, working on a broader product team that spans from architecture, design of of product, manufacturing team, mechanical engineering, to work on what is currently a panelized building system for townhomes. So really focused on missing middle kind of infill for mid level density in urban or semi urban environments. And I, yeah, I'm very excited to be bringing my experience in volumetric modular to our panelized approach, but it's... You know, some things are different, but a lot of the kind of product mentality and architectural skill set is is very applicable.

A So I wasn't aware of the panelized. I'm gonna... I'm gonna be very honest here. I wasn't very aware of the panelized approach until I started looking at potential ADUs for my backyard. We have electricity poles for our neighborhood set right above our house. So we have no ability to crane in a prefab house unless they... I don't know, unless they helicopter in, which is good, like, a whole another nightmare. So I I have been looking at panelized approach to architecture, but I don't feel like a lot of the industry is aware of this, I would say, this growing interest in panelization in it...

A In and of itself. Can you talk a little bit more about how that helps with either speed to construction or even... You still get half of what you get in the factory because so much of it is controlled versus on-site too.

B Mhmm. Absolutely. Yes. I think there are several different approaches to panelization popping up, and and that have been actually happening for several years now. But this is really the, I think, pivot point where you go from stick built constructions, the way you'd normally assemble a wall is with studs, autumn track, top track, every single stud. Then you have to punch holes for all the MEP to run through a wall, then you're putting up drywall, sometimes multiple layers because of typically fire ratings. So one approach is taking that sort of stud manufactured wall work into a factory setting where you can use different tooling. So you can use more automated, you know, CNC stud rolling machines.

B There are several companies working on sort of a robotic process to do the actual assembly of those kinds of walls. And, generally, the goal is to pre coordinate what is going into those walls so you can actually have that crossover of trades happening in the factory where it's easier to sequence. You have more space. You're, you know, you're laying out walls in a much more deliberate way. And everything is predetermined and can also be built very precisely in the factory and then assembled on-site. American Housing specifically is using an MGO panel. So it's MGO sheathing with in... Rigid insulation in the middle.

B So it's also... It's it's the structural system for the townhouse scale, which is a transition for me coming from assembly where we were always working with the hot rolled steel superstructure and then infill of, like, HGL, you know, stud walls, which were... Those were panels being inserted into a structure... A modular structural chassis. So these are all differing in the ways that you kind of break down a building, but, generally, you can panelize versus volumetric modular. You're you're putting smaller pieces into a shipping container or a truck. American Housing's design is for each townhome to fit into three containers and be able to drive to any site. So that's the strategy.

B And then from there, you know, there's finishing work to be done, but we're also... Right now, the approach is to have kitchens and other components pre attached to walls. Kitchen is another great example of where, you know, you have millwork, you have countertops, you have fixtures, you have all these different intersecting elements that if they can be pre coordinated and installed in the same place, same time together, you have a lot of efficiency gained off-site.

A When we talked a little bit in in the beginning about the need to understand the difference between traditional building processes and in factory building processes, from all of your architecture training and every... Like, all of the various different hats that you've worn over the course of your career, why did you find... Or what have you found most useful from from your time that you learned at Cornell that you carry with you?

B I think systems thinking. And by that, I mean, thinking really holistically. So when you're maybe focused on one scope, also thinking about how that design change, it has ripple effects across all the different both scopes in terms of, like, the functional components that it's adjacent to, but also who's putting this together, how are they putting it together, where is the material coming from. So really thinking holistically about design. And I think the way that this plays out in school that is still playing out for me today is having to learn about new things all the time. I feel like I'm doing research all the time. Like, I think you've talked a lot about how architects are trained as generalists, and it... Even though what I'm doing seems really specialized, I just...

B I feel like a generalist every single day where you're expected to know something about a lot of things, about everything. So I think that nimbleness and willingness to learn is something that I use every single day.

A And then talk to me about... And I and I don't think these are necessarily dissimilar from what everyone else needs to learn as they kind of emerge out of school. But are... Is there anything that nobody taught you in school that is architecture related that you might have felt... Found more helpful as you grow into your career? Even though, as you said, I feel like it's it's an... It's a learning process no matter what.

B Yeah. I I grapple with this with the part of... But, like, would I have liked to learn this in school or, you know, what should we be taught is so, like, you can't teach everything over the course of our education, which is interesting in and of itself. But I think I didn't really learn... Maybe I had a vague sense, but I don't think I really knew, like, how was a wall built? You you draw walls as two lines and not all the guts of a wall while you're in school or how waterproofing works. So those sort of technical things you very much learn on the job, which in some ways is nice. Like, we reserve the kind of conceptual bedrock of how we think for what is taught in school. I also think how to manage a team, and I'm certainly still learning that.

B But that's a skill that emerges and I think is taught in not a very structured way. It's really taught through experience, and it depends on leadership that you work under. You learn different styles. So I think that's sort of a more nebulous aspect. I've certainly learned post school.

A We have a lot of younger listeners on the podcast, like, people that are inquiring about different career paths. If they're listening to this episode and they're like, oh, I'm kind of interested in following a similar career trajectory as Alexandra, What would you recommend for them to do?

B I think I would say try to find someone in your network that has ties to, you know, whether it's someone in the prefab space or just construction technology in general. Whatever it is you're interested in, you probably know someone who knows someone and to start follow that... Following that snowball effect and just try to have conversations with people so that you can learn more about what's going on. I think it's a very fast changing space so that you can start to understand, you know, what flavor of... You know, what corner of this world that I'd like to work in. And then I think there are inroads, and, you know, often they are through having those conversations or just putting applications out there. But it is a growing space, and I think it might feel very different from what people are doing at a a typical architecture firm, but I I think the skills transfer actually quite directly. Know, I learned everything.

B I learned about product design just through the work experience. But, really, I think I still... I operate as an architect in terms of the way that I think and the way that I... It's a lot of coordination, and it's just a lot of, you know, setting vision and then figuring out how how it... What needs to happen for it all to come together. So I think that mindset shift is not as sort of alien as, you know, some people might think, and you're probably already on your way towards it if you're thinking about this, if you're interested in the space.

A I wanna talk about architects in the future. So, I mean, you talked a lot about the capital that is required to undertake some of what you're doing, and architects aren't necessarily the holders of the... That capital. What does that mean for the future of practice? What does it mean for the future of the profession? Is there a way for us to have a greater voice in that space? And what would you hope that means for, like, just the future of of architects in general?

B Yeah. It's a really great question. I think as I've kind of evolved through my career, I feel more and more acutely responsible for sort of what we bring to life, what we put out into the world through design. Because even though we're not... We're usually not holding sort of the funds to make things happen, we are really at this kind of crux of influence over the design decisions that get made. So I think that can be a really challenging position to be in as a profession where you're you're at the site of the decision making, but you don't always hold power to the decision making. So there are a lot of soft skills involved to influence the the work. So I think there's...

B Within typical practice, that's a really important sort of mentality in that position. I also think moving ourselves into the position where we are either closer to the money or, you know, just, you know, in different positions of control and power in innovation. And I think a lot of that is happening. And it... Again, it's part of what I really have admired admired about shop's work and that they've been quite bold in their business practice, whether that was spinning up shop construction or envelope, which was a software solution for zoning automation or assembly. I think that that, you know, that is a a way to accelerate the innovation that is possible with the skill sets that architects bring to the table.

A Within the mix of all of this, if we do find ourselves being more entrepreneurial and at the decision making table or in those conversations where we are driving the decisions made on the value side, what is your hope for what is the role of architects in the future of the built environment?

B I hope that design... I think there will always be a place for really one off bespoke design work. You know? Everyone wants to design their own home. I mean, there's so many examples of that. So I'm I'm not... I don't wanna wipe that away at all. I think there... That will still very much hold the space.

B But if some portion of the industry shifts more towards treating buildings as products, not as commodities, but as products where we really invest our time into the design details. Like, if you think about the iPhone and the way that Apple functions, like, you've got a really high quality design object that has had hours and hours and hours of work go into it, but then it gets repeated and the, you know, a lot of the world gets to hold an iPhone. So if we move more towards treating architecture as products, I think that the role of the architect will shift more towards managing product libraries. So, you know, whether it's the components or optionality, what does it look like to configure a home that is, you know, to a degree custom for the person who is going to live there, but you're pulling from an already designed product library. I hope that means we get to do a lot more continuous improvement of the product. That's what the design cycles will look like. And I hope that involves... And Brian Boyer speaks a lot about this, a lot more post occupancy work where we act...

B It's something we are so cut off from right now, but actually collecting data and input on how spaces actually get used and how they could be better. And, overall, my hope is that, you know, AI and the other technologies emerging helps to free up architects from the grunt work because so much of what we do is still currently grunt work to to... And it has been for a very long time, to be able to design more fluidly, more freely, more quickly, and kind of retain that critical focus for the art of it all and the innovation and really creative problem solving.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Practice Disrupted. Want more of this between episodes? Start with Practice Rebuilt, our weekly newsletter on the business of architecture at practiceofarchitecture.com/newsletter. And when you're ready to stop reading about change and start testing it in your own firm, get on the list for the lab at practiceofarchitecture.com/lab. We'll see you next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.