Finding a New Value Proposition Through Tech

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners.

A So today, we are interviewing Adam Wilbrecht, AIA. How He is a cofounder at CONSORT. In this episode, we are really going to be exploring a lot of different things, a crossover between architecture, entrepreneurship and technology, and we're gonna be taking a look at blockchain specifically how and its applications to the industry. I think this is going to be a really interesting case study because the story behind Concert how is that it was established as an independent software company that was built and funded by some of the largest AE firms in the US. How So these firms together obviously represent 100 and 1,000,000 of dollars of professional fees and 1,000,000,000 of dollars in delivered products. How Ultimately, as a consortium or as a group, they were looking to identify meaningfuls a meaningful space to invest their money in areas that would also move the profession forward and this is the 1st product that came out of that endeavor.

B And it might be worth mentioning that Concert is a SaaS offering or software as a service. And how SaaS, for those who don't know, is a method of software delivery that allows data to be accessed from any device with an Internet connection and a web browser. So this is to us like an operational piece of managing practice.

A Yeah. I would say another way to how talk about SaaS is when Adobe moved away from when Adobe and AutoCAD and all the software product, how Producers moved away from issuing DVDs and CDs and moved to the cloud. They essentially are now all fast operators.

B Let's also briefly talk about the large firm roundtable because we mentioned that quite a bit in this episode.

A How So the origins of concert grew out of conversations that were actually happening at the large firm roundtable. The AIA large firm roundtable is how a kind of thought leadership group that meets yearly and has a capacity to undertake research on their own. Adam is a part of the CIO group, how But the CEOs and the chief people officers also have similar working groups that meet on a regular basis.

B Adam is a principal at Cunningham Group Architecture and a cofounder of Concert, a registered architect and specialist in both building and design technologies, and he is also part of the AIACIO large firm roundtable, as well as the AECIT Leaders Group and the University of Minnesota Consortium for Research Practices. Let's cut to the interview.

C Well, first and foremost, I am a registered how architect. I've been practicing for about 30 years. I currently live in Minnesota, but my career got started out in how Los Angeles, California, where I attended SCI Arc for my master's degree in architecture. Over the how 20 of the 30 years I've practiced, I've worked in all kinds of, marketplaces from multifamily housing to themed entertainment. How I had a wonderful time when I worked for a very brief time, but it was very intense at, Frank Gehry's office working on finishing the contract documents for Disney Hall. That was a fun one. Did over 200 hours in 2 weeks.

A Oh, wow.

C That one out. How That's

A not the fun part of that.

C No. No. I I think it it was fun. IDP called me and said, there's no way you did these hours. How And and I said, why not? And they said, you would have had to work on the weekends to get these kind of hours. I was like, yes. I did. How also had an extraordinary experience working with Disney Imagineering on, the Disney's California Adventure.

B How that's so cool.

C Seeing the rigor, that they bring to design and just all the different disciplines and creative people brought to bear how on these projects and also seeing probably a glimpse of the future of, building operations and management because they They have paint samples from the 19 sixties sitting on file because they they're responsible for restoring finishes that have aged, You know, through generations. So it's it's been fantastic. But, after 20 years and as we were coming out of the last downturn, how The firm, where I'm a principal at, we realized that our technology how Wasn't really aligned with our practice. And sure we had software, but we it was being underutilized, how And we didn't know why we were buying things. Revit we've been on Revit for a few years, but we didn't even know why we were on Revit. We were still creating the same old paper how Documentation. So I took over that role. And and then shortly thereafter, there this tremendous how program at the University of Minnesota led by Renee Chang, which is basically a research consortium that paired how Academics, students, and professional firms on topics.

C So we would get a student and an academic and we our firm would pick the topic and It was a great on ramp to bring research into our practice. So I ended up having this funky title of knowledge, chief knowledge officer, which involved technology and research. And bringing those 2 together, actually, it was a it was a really good marriage. Computational design, all of a sudden, when you tie it to a research project, it makes sense. The the algorithms you develop are born from a deeper understanding of the problem set because you've researched it. So that's really brought how Me too where I am today, which is exploring through research to find the sticky problems out there that we can start applying how What an architectural education brings to the table. It's not about great design for clients per se. It's a design education is much broader.

C How Ideally, much more entrepreneurial and much more exploratory, instead of being bound to these fee based services and Client satisfaction. Our licenses have nothing to do with client satisfaction. They're about health selves

A Right.

C Health, safety, and welfare of society. So So that's a much different value proposition. That that's, you know, a state is giving you a license to maintain 3 very big things. How And, you know, they're responsibilities, but I think they're also opportunities to expand our agency and where we can go with this profession how

A that is changing dramatically.

B I know we wanna get into talking about your business, but I have to segue back to something you already touched on, which is this transition that, I think most firms have kinda had to go through either willingly or unwillingly, which was when Technology started pushing industry forward. You know, there were a lot of firms jumping into using Revit on projects, but they didn't quite have how that process figured out yet. And so I'm curious from your standpoint, like, around how that's transitioned from those early days of being disjointed to now where you you have an entire research division and knowledge division focused on improving and making these projects more technologically advanced in addition to doing architecture.

C Well, the transition really, in my opinion, boils down to how Changing the fundamentals of design. It's not really so much changing as adding. Early in my career, the senior designers, What made them a senior designer outside of just basic talent was their ability to apply both their experience and intuition how to the project. And what's happened in the 20th century or I'm sorry, 21st century now is how Our ability to access data has just expanded, obviously, with the maturity of the Internet, but also saw you know, developments such as GIS, makes this information not only accessible, but also manageable through business intelligence platforms like Power BI, things how that you can start taking this massive amount of data and finding insights on projects, not only contextually, but also looking into the various, how Say the industry that you you might be serving, whether it's retail or restaurants or multifamily housing, A lot a lot of firms say we're we're your trusted expert. And so the trust now comes from additional resources. It comes from these insights, and how And, ultimately, research should form the basis of it. So you're not approaching with bias, but as objectively as possible. So you can come how to a client or an attractive client per se based on this added value that you can bring to the project or these added insights.

A Mhmm.

B How, and there's data in everything that we're modeling and creating these days.

C There absolutely is. You know, GIS for me really

A how Blew the doors open

C with all the datasets that you can access. A foundational moment for me was when I was, Walking in Washington DC with Dave Gilmore, who's the CEO of Design Intelligence, and we just happen to be walking by the Department of Commerce. And, if I recall correctly, his education is in economics and religion, and he looked up at this big temple building and he said, ah, Department of Commerce. This is where I get most of my information. And that tripped a lever in my head. It's like, okay. This here's the gentleman who's representing our profession, who's approaching it from Purely data, but it's data that's even outside of what designers use. I mean, he's looking in macro contexts And what that information and what the implications of that can bear upon our profession.

A So I wanna bring the conversation back how this idea of opportunity. Data is definitely one of those opportunities, but you are in the process of launching concert how to a larger audience. Can you tell us a little bit about what CONSORT is and kind of how it came how How it came to be. And when we talked the last time, you mentioned CDs going away, like the 70% of how Profit margin or whatever. Yep. Like, 70 like that quote, the 70% or or the 30% of, your work going away and and and needing to find needing to find a solution to kinda even backfill of that.

C Yeah. The the existential equation that architects face, and I'm sure people have different how Flavors of this one is that the commodification of architecture or the product we create, is effectively tied to downward pressures To the point that we're being asked to do more for less. And by virtue of technologies, we're offering to do more for less as well at the same time are built. How And by virtue of BIM and CAD, and we've been developing more and more complexity into our projects yet the fees and the value from that complexity haven't how On top of that, we're looking at effectively a very interested capital market out there since how 2017 when McKinsey published a report. And I'm sure it wasn't the first one, but it showed architecture and construction as a $13,000,000,000,000 how Industry that has had zero productivity growth over generate. I mean so, yeah, that's a big shiny object to someone who's looking who has how capital investment dollars, and that followed through in 2019. In the Q4 of 2019, a full quarter of more capital investment made by venture how was put into the PropTech AECO marketplace. So, I mean, that that's substantial, but what that means for us how Traditional architects are to that profession, who some people refer to as, like, the gentleman's profession of architecture is, you know, we we like to say disruption, but that's how not really the case.

C No one's gonna come and disrupt architecture the same way taxis were disrupted by Uber. It's it's not that simple. How that we're dealing with far more complexity. So it's more of a decomposition of services. Little bits and pieces being eroded here and there where we would normally take a fee for that someone else has come in and how

A Created a whole service around it

C that can you know, that's boundless, basically, that moves into the operations of the building, which is a place that architects tend not to go right now. That's no. Those are longer term relationships than a design and construction relationship. So how So that's really the context. So if if we're looking at these services, especially more in the on the construction side, We're going to see less and less claimable revenue from construction documents, even design development, especially as contractors how work with us as well at that. Why why draw it twice? Why should an architect draw a detail if the person who's actually going to build That component of the building, why don't they draw it with us on a BIM environment, on a common data environment? So how That's the downward pressure. So as you're getting squeezed into a box, which is going to be just front end design, that's just gonna be less Revenue. Less capital for your for you.

C So the question is, did you just allow for the compression to happen, or do you find escape valves? And the data is really the escape valve because these building information models, they're the synthesis of a lot of data inputs, A lot of inspiration, a lot of intuition, a lot of experience. There's value beyond just the construction of the building. There's there's value in these models And in this data that could be leveraged somewhere else. And that's the opportunity that's on the table right now that I think for how For our profession is to explore these escape vowels and see what we can derive from our embodied knowledge and from these things we synthesize how from this knowledge and create new products and services.

B Right. Create more value.

A Right. So was this ultimately, I guess and I take it, And I could be wrong that this was a conversation that is actually a very lively conversation within the context of the large firm round table, how Or maybe not. Say no reaction.

C No. It is. It is. And what's funny is it's and and I won't speak for the large front how Roundtable in total, but it's, you know, the the common enemy call it an enemy just because we give them a lot of money every year is Autodesk. So how Because Autodesk is defining very well in some cases how we work, we feel that we can't get away from them or we you know, they're the ones boxing how and eroding our service model. That's all well and fine, but, you know, Autodesk does make some really great products. How BIM three sixty probably saved us in the pandemic. If this had happened 2 years ago, we'd have a lot more people out of work, I I believe.

C But how From that source though, it's just the people who are paying attention shouldn't aren't drawing their ire at Autodesk per se, but seeing that technology how And people who are thinking much more objective way about what the real value is of each element of design and construction And creating new services around that, you know, what are what are we going to do? What can architects do to, one way to put it is sort of reclaim our profession.

A How mhmm. Right?

C Reinstate the value. I mean, in in by virtue of our licensure and health safety welfare, that's one thing where we have a stake that nobody else can claim. So that's the opportunity in essence. So, back to the McKinsey report, digitalization was really seen as The major escape valve. So, with digitalization, we realize all kinds of benefits, much lower risk because you have an how model showing that tile turning the corner versus a drawing that suggests that it might be, that turns into a claim. Obviously, through clash detection, things like that, you're you're removing the interpretation side of documents. You're removing how and making, removing interpretation and effectively making things much more explicit. So what large firm roundtable understands is that digitalization is how And how do we get there? Do we do it on the backs of other large software companies? Perhaps not.

C You know, if if they're doing such a good job taking away revenue from us, what can we do for ourselves is the question. How And and we're also inspired by all the students coming in who are doing computational design. We're able to solve problems by writing our own algorithms, By taking data and writing our own solutions. You know? And if you look at companies like Highpar who are looking at leveraging all of these algorithms and how Cataloging them and making them accessible similar to GitHub. All of a sudden, the agency of the architect starts looking a little bit more like a computer programmer, how But we're using spatial data instead. So what can we do with that? So as I'm implying here, there's much more many more questions that start coming up of what's possible through digitalization and what investment and agency could architects make to be a part of that new landscape how versus just being users of the software.

A Let's focus a little bit on Concert and kind of talk about the entrepreneurial side Of architecture. I think the, not the disruption, but the, you know you didn't you didn't say decentral utilization either. You said,

C Ecomposition.

A Yeah. So I've always struggled with the fact And as as many years as I've been involved in the AIA with with architects complaining about everything that we're giving away. So in in essence, decomposition, how But not reclaiming any of that value. So how did you guys land on Concert? What was its 1st iteration, and and what does it look like now.

C Well, Concert came from looking at just a simple question of, we have all the tools for digitalization, Why haven't we done it? You know, it should be happening right now, in in but we're we're still signing paper, and then how We have a contractor who comes and asks for, hey, can we have your BIM model? Can you give it to us on the backside here? And it's there's effectively a black market economy on the digital data. And we sign these wonderful waivers or we make them sign these waivers that say, well, you know, us of any risk tied to these digital artifacts. So the question the fundamental question is, how do we flip it? How do we make the digital data, how the contract data, the instrument of service, and make the documents supplemental.

B Interesting. And so

C one realization was is that there's no way to sign a BMO. And so that was the birth of Concert was exploring to find ways. Is is there a way that we could apply a digital signature to data? And that quickly expanded because we realized architects just aren't delivering Revit models. There's, well, there's also Bentley models, and there's also Rhino models, and then there's also how SketchUp models, and there's also pictures of napkin sketches. I mean, anything you can draw and sign can be an instrument of service. So why not look at the full expanse of data and how we could deliver that, especially as we're moving into an age of robotics how an automated construction. There if there's a brick laying robot, who wrote the code for what the brick pattern is? Why couldn't the architect write that? How And why couldn't they make that instrument of service and sign it? So that that was the initial problem. How do we sign that? And that led us how to blockchain, which for a lot of people is a bit of a punch line saying it's a solution looking for a problem.

C But in this case, we went up to Silicon Valley and we met with, experts in blockchain and pitched this idea. And they came back and said, yeah, that's actually a really good application. So with that concert was effectively born in concept, but then we needed seed funding.

A Right. So before we go on too far, just because I think a lot of our our listeners, you know, Troxell's podcast on our network probably has people that are more familiar with blockchain and the application. But can You just at least give a more elementary explanation of of what blockchain is and and exactly the the value that's inherent between this digitization and what blockchain provides.

C Sure. Sure. So blockchain, at its very simplest level, is just a ledger that exists in cyberspace, how But it's a ledger that cannot be changed once you put an entry into a ledger. Basically, you cannot wipe that ledger because that ledger is copied how across the globe, at least in a public blockchain ledger. So all of a sudden, a 1,000 different, what we call them, nodes, have copies of this record. So your ability to change it in one place might be possible, but you can't change it in all places. Now what's fun about blockchain is that when you add the next how Item in the ledger to the blockchain is that it is mathematically tied to the previous item. So as you build these blocks And as they're tied mathematically to each other, you can't just take 1 out of the middle because it actually blows up the equation how The math of the whole thing.

C So it becomes even more secure in that concept and where it ties nicely to architecture is is that we don't create a sheet, how a BIM model. We actually create a sheet, and then we improve upon it. We revise it. We're not done with our these artifacts we create until the construction is done. How So there's a lot of value in knowing what in this case, we're using data files, whether it's a PDF or BIM spreadsheet, whatever. How There's value in knowing at any given time. And there is a time stamp with this, I should add. So it's not only the item and where it is in the stack, but it's when that item was added to the how

B Right.

C So say we put out a BIM file in July 15th this summer and they poured a slab on July 17th. And, you know, here we are a 100 days later, that slab is curled. We can go back and say, this is the exact file or this is the exact PDF regarding how that slab or this is the exact data that was in effect when that slab was poured. So from a risk standpoint or from an insurance standpoint, it becomes very easy how To point at an item on the ledger and say, this is what was real at that time. This is what was available how at that time. So that's kind of a half handed way of talking about blockchain. There's a lot of complexity to it, but at the end of the day, it is just a list With a name and a time stamp attached to it.

B I'm curious, like, if putting emphasis back on the model versus the two d drawings changes the way you guys manage and

A and

B the way that the emphasis is placed on the team that's producing, the model. Is there more attention towards different things than previously? From my experience working in a firm, there was so much time spent, you know, marking of drawings and such. But, like, when it's a three d element and you're really emphasizing the model, what does that shift in terms of the communication around the actual project.

C What what where the shift is, probably the essential communication is that Don't break the model to make the drawing. And that's the biggest problem right now is because the drawings have primacy, the model can be compromised to create the best how Drawing.

B Right. Right.

C In the case of when you're building when you're solely focusing on the primacy of the of the modeled content, You're gonna make much more conscious decisions about what is modeled and what what its purpose is for communication, how for the construction. And then if things are really taken into a broader context, you're also loading additional data into that model. How So there's the visual information, but then there is all of this parameter information as as well as, metadata attached how to any object, and it might be regarding its warranty. It might be its delivery data. It might be serial numbers. It doesn't matter. You can effectively embed this massive quantity of data that opens up the value propositions downstream because this model is so much more than just the data used for construction.

B How that makes sense.

A I think architects are always trying to make their drawings prettier in spite of the model. I just wanna refocus back on this whole idea of concert and blockchain and where you guys are as a business.

C Sure. As of last week, we just put our commercial website online, so that's get concert.com, Which is great. We've moved out of beta into receiving pay paying customers. It's a SaaS software. So it how takes place. It works completely online. There's no installed software.

A Just because I've been seeing so many how Complaints about SAS from our industry right now. I guess, why did you guys decide to to use that model?

C How For the most part, because we're a public registry and the functions that we use are very simple, which involves just scanning files. We don't actually upload data. We just scan the file locally on your machine. I I know we're we're a less technical audience here, so but, but because the files never leave your computer, the web browser was actually all the software we needed to get the data we need to on to basically fingerprint our data and assemble it in our how In our database.

A Oh, okay. I was more going around the I think people have been complaining about the SaaS model in our industry as a business because they want to pay a one and done fee versus them paying a reoccurring fee.

C Well, it is the trope that the Internet should be free and fast Right. Are perceived as being functions how of the Internet. I mean, licensing models are certainly complex and ours is, is actually transactional how by users, and that that's actually fairly different for a SaaS is that, you know, you you basically pay for every file that you decide to how Memorialize on the blockchain. Okay. So I think we're innovative in that way by being how In a way of aggressive, we're going back to the old way of, of economics. But it but it makes the costs very predictable. And, how you're not paying for someone not using it effectively.

A Where did the how funds ultimately come for you guys to get through get through alpha and to get to where you are Sure. Now. And then where does Consort go next in terms of Funding and growth.

C It's it's interesting. Probably a little context there is that making software is hard. It's it's one thing to generate an algorithm or a series of algorithms and basically market as a product, but to create, As they say, actual shrink-wrap software. It it it does take a lot of money. It takes a lot of resources, takes a lot of time, how Especially if you wanna get into a marketplace and perform what I've heard called unnatural growth. So it's one thing just to create a piece of software, see if you can how Get some friends and family to try it out and it might grow by word-of-mouth. But to create something that grows very fast and has an engine attached to it that Puts it in hearts and minds of lots of people very quickly. You do need significant investment.

C So in this in this case, how We wanted to be the product started at Cunningham Group, but we knew very quickly that we were going to need this capital and to turn it into something else. So this is where we we basically embraced the rhetoric of the large firm round table and ask them, hey, do you want to Does anyone here want to invest in this concept and put us on the path to digitalization, remove the obstacle to digitalization of our practice and lo and behold, we received seed funding from a number of firms and quickly converted The software from being a Cunningham product to being a stand alone company. And we basically went and then installed a CEO who has launched how Many software companies and hardware companies ahead of before. We have engineers that have done not only how Professional software, but also blockchain expertise. So basically, architects got out of the way really fast, and spoke with their dollars instead of with their sort of can do attitude that we're gonna do this. Instead, they we put the experts in charge, and, that's been to a great benefit.

B Great. And I just wanna mention that it looks like based on your website, you've got HKS, Cunningham Group, HGA, Gould Evans, how Grisham Smith, BWBR are using this platform?

C Yes.

B So there's been an early buy in into how to the need and the use of the, platform. And I guess we're curious, like, how the company has pivoted since you know, from that early idea that everyone bought into to where you are now.

C Yeah. So the the early idea was just signatures, but we realized how Through speaking with the firms even the firms listed on their on our website, there's other resistance factors to digital delivery, and a lot of it ties around trust. So we encounter people's like, why would I give people my digital data? It's like giving them the recipe to Coke or my source how. Code for my software and and that's actually not true. There are legal precedents for copyright and such. So theft is how Probably much more it's much more of a concern than it actually merits, but nevertheless, what we do create Is our copyright, is our intellectual property, and nothing says this these things we create have to be used solely for construction how As well. So by virtue of blockchain in this registry, we we also basically have an IP registration tool and that we are saying how this firm created this data at this time. So now we have this added value proposition in that we're, how A company can say not only is the data was it created at this time, but it's mine.

A Mhmm.

C And it offers opportunities to even transfer ownership how of that data in the future. The other opportunity we saw is that every time you do how Write a file to blockchain because you're paying for it. It's actually a significant event. You're saying that you're memorializing that data saying this was how At least for the purposes of pricing or for

A You're not writing it to blockchain every time you hit control s on your machine is what you're saying.

C Correct. Correct. No. You're you're you're you're databasing it, and then you're ultimately taking the files that you really want to, how Memorialize, and those will get imprinted on the blockchain. But then all of a sudden, you have a record of your deliverable, and you have this trigger event that says, I have fulfilled part of the contract. You can even say, hey, insurance company, I'm delivering digitally. Does that have value? How So it it begins to transform the meaning of when we create this data. Because in the past, we would just throw it over the wall.

C Like, here you go. We made this. And we'd we'd undermine ourselves of how what the value is. I mean, there's hundreds and thousands of hours that go into this into these models. Even the the families that are in a Revit are are Thousands of hours. So we we shouldn't be undermining the value of what we create. And by memorializing it this way too, we can start recording, its use and why it's used and gaining insights from that as well. And on the other side, because we wanna share data, how The industries and people who are receiving their data can now check it and say, is this the actual data? Because the second you give it someone, the first thing they're gonna do is open it and how So to speak.

C If I have a bricklaying robot and I have this data and I'm about to start laying bricks, I wanna make sure I've got the latest version. If I'm a company like Doxel and I'm scanning a construction site every day, I'm gonna wanna know that the BIM model I'm comparing the construction against is the latest how So trust becomes a big part of data exchange going forward, and we think concert how Screen to play a pivotal role in that trust mechanism.

B I can imagine that this is helpful to handing off a model to a how GC, particularly, because I I know there's been a lot of conversations with the firms that I've worked at between exchanging models so that how that can

A help with

C their team on-site. Mhmm.

A What are

B some of the lessons that you guys have learned in developing your startup. And and what can you share with our audience in terms of how you've grown the business?

C So the the lessons we've learned really come just how From listening for the most part. In in most of it's been just expansion, beyond our initial idea. I think everything starts with a good idea, but then In order to be more than that idea, you need to find, you know, you you you need to find a place for it. That's how Basically winning hearts and minds in a way that people see the problem and see the how it resolves that problem. So you you have to expand into those Those worry places. What are the sticky problems people have? And so uncovering those has been it it's been been a fun part, but it's also made for these how Great moments for us of we we created this, but it actually also does this. And we've almost had we've actually had to contain ourselves because where how Blockchain naturally leads to smart contracts, and that's where most blockchain companies start is with this notion of smart contracts, and they start with the financial side, which is how Intensely complicated. So, you know, we see opportunities there, but at this point, it's like we just can't go there.

C And that that'll be for someone else how effectively. So, you know, that that's it's as much as finding where you can go, but also knowing what your limits

B are. Yeah. There is value and constraint how as an entrepreneur.

A So you've, you started with the original seed funding from the large firm. How Is is the large firm going to dip their toe a 2nd round? Are you guys gonna actually look out, for venture capital? Where do you to get

C from here. So all options are on the table right now. Venture capital is certainly an option for, our next round of funding, how Whether that's series a or, some other machination of funding. There's also private resources that could be gone too.

A How Tech pension funds are

C are an example and that's been a real lesson for me as an architect as I had no idea how any of this works and I'm probably still portraying it in a somewhat amateur way, but, You know, funding can come from anywhere. There's just different, you know, there's different strings attached to that funding depending on where you go. So how Other architecture firms are certainly a possibility, and not just for architecture, engineering design professional design how Certainly out there, there is, there's engineering markets in there that we hadn't initially considered that, have come looking for us. So how We we have opportunities there, private investors, but otherwise in there is venture capital. And there are certainly venture funds in there that are are solely how Dedicated to the AEC space and are actively funding.

A So the last time we talked, you actually had talked about, how You know, now that you've been in this on this side of the entrepreneurial space for a while with concert and you've done a lot of listening, You know, you've you kind of had your pulse on how Build Tech, the money in that's how that's coming towards Build Tech now has been evolving. So can you talk to us about how you've seen that evolved in the last 3 to 5, 5 years. And Sure. And I guess the follow-up question would be, you know, what is the potential for architects to capitalize on all of this?

C Right. I mean, I I think I can best it to talk by example where you see these firms started by, in some cases, people have just graduated from college or grad school, like TestFit IO, where they they've just seen this small part of our industry that how They could take advantage of and automate where they as interns, they suffered to do something over days and they they knew in their back pocket that how We could do this much faster. And that that's at the seed level of whatever what venture capital is looking for is how These automations that actually uncover a much larger need and a much larger a much larger value stream. So now Now all of a sudden you don't have to hire an architect to do fit planning. A developer can do it by themselves. So that's a big deal. The the work still gets done, it just how done but through a different agency.

A Yeah. And then I think we mentioned, you know, a few years ago, it was actually really hard for me to find, how Like a a VC that's interested in in the build tech space. And I I feel like there's definitely more interest Because of what you mentioned at the top with this being like a $13,000,000,000,000 industry with no growth, productivity growth. But I think it's worth mentioning things like TestFit too. At least those individuals came out of architecture school. A lot of how What I'm seeing happen in the build tech space is engineers, and not even structural or civil engineers. We're talking computer engineers that are that are seeing how opportunities and really capitalizing in these areas without architects. So I think this is an area that we need to step into sooner rather than later how if we talk about kind of reclaiming some of that that space or taking back some of that that value.

C Without a doubt, I mean, the the how The amount of value that's accessible out there, doesn't really cause anyone to respect any boundaries that, you know, are how are psychological anyhow. Why wouldn't you go into the space and and see what you can derive, without a doubt. Interestingly, they they tend to be how focused more on the construction space just because maybe it's more understandable, probably because it's more repeatable, as well as, construction is has a lot more capital effectively. Construction tends to be financed money where design is first money. It's It's cash. It's not financed. So that's one thing that's been leading to our downward pressures, but I don't think it how us from taking advantage of this space and and bringing new things to bear.

B I think there's a lot of opportunity because there's so many designers I know that are working in these Revit models or on projects and seeing the inefficiencies that you were referencing at the beginning beginning of the episode, and there's a lot of room for innovation around some of those solutions. And and then I know firms need help in terms of learning how to adopt this technology too. So I see a role for architects and designers to step into that. And One of my questions I was gonna ask was about your team and just wondering what the composition is in terms of architects versus,

A Mhmm.

B Engineers that you had to hire in terms of helping you develop this.

C So, software development is, I mean, your seed funding is never allowed. You're always very lean. So I'm the only architect on the team, and it's a part time role. Otherwise, we have, 2 full time, software engineers. We have a how Product expert, slash blockchain expert, and then we have a CEO who has tremendous expertise in capital raise, how Basically, and start in running the company.

A You can count that on one hand pretty much. Yes.

C How And yeah. So you, you know, you you have to choose your resources wisely as well because you are limited, but you need to you know, speed is necessary. I've This is my 1st experience with agile development too, which has been fun because I see a lot of analogs with design. There's a lot of similarities in the process. So it's it's actually been a very smooth relationship, because change is natural. An architect is very familiar with change, and it isn't how seen as a negative. So I think that's made for a very for a great team dynamic. And then there's also lots of notes to take back to project teams and How you can design on on more of a design cycle, so to speak, or Yeah.

C You you add sprints to your, into your design cycle.

B How Evelyn and I have talked a lot about that, wanting to bring some of those ideas over to project design processes.

C Yeah. I think there's a book to be written there because I've looked right and left and up and down for, someone who can take these lean and agile methodologies and how Apply them to the design side and and, you know, herd the cats using these, these concepts because I I think they'd actually be very, how Very attracted to

A it. Mhmm. Yeah. Truth be told, the hybrid playbook, I think, by the end of 2021 will become the agile practice playbook.

C Oh, fantastic.

A So that's where I'm I'm hoping to end end with that one.

C We'll have to interview you, though.

A So back to this notion of health, safety, and well welfare. And how A lot of architects that I've been talking to, and especially in the commercial space, has been focused on wellness, looking at the future of work within commercial and, how Like, the workplace within commercial interiors. So, like, where do you think there are other opportunities for architecture firms or architects in in general that we should how we should be steering towards.

C Yeah. Wellness is of, I mean, especially focusing on wellness. It's in the air age of a pandemic, how Wellness is certainly twisting from what its original interpretation was and most Americans don't know that, you know, wellness is actually a huge global industry. I saw a stat in 2017. It was, $4,200,000,000,000 globally, and that was before we were even talking about it. How But then the Well Standard came into play and which is a very interesting document because it is talking about how How space and place is used and what its outcome is on health. But wellness now with, In a post pandemic is creates a situation where it's maybe a little more explicit where people might want to have this relationship with the building to understand how it's affecting them by virtue of occupancy. So this is where sensors how highly underexploited at this point.

C The sensor market is coming on strong. Schneider Electric is especially interesting with how they're positioning, Position themselves, but also talking to designers about what the role of sensors is going to be. And then there so there's this real need for this, I would think for these edge conditions for this interface between building and occupant, and you might not even need to be in the building, the interface how could be in a service model. You know, hotels are I know I checked into 1 hotel at one time. When I landed, I got a text saying, you know, welcome how Las Vegas. What drink do you want waiting for you in your room? I mean, that that's kind of an example of it. You're driving home. Your multifamily living unit how Kicks on the hot water heater or starts warm warming it up because it knows you're coming home.

C So there there's these interactions, but there's also by virtue of air quality sensors, how Understanding lighting levels and its effect. You could start having a dashboard effectively how For the environment that you're in and understanding it not only in the present but over time. So, you know, and it's easy to think of domestic living conditions, but

A how Say you worked in

C an auto shop. You might wanna know that over the past 6 hours, you've been experiencing decibel levels that are how Damaging your ears and you've been inhaling these strange compounds, you know, that are, you know, might how Might not make you dizzy today, but might have long term effects downs downstream. So, you know, the pandemic has revealed and I've seen some data points such as that, High pollution transmits the pathogens much more readily than fresh air. So, having I think that having that information would be incredibly valuable. So I think that's the next stage of wellness and and what it requires is the architect's talents to how Understand sensor technology and the applications of sensors in the design so that that interface between occupant and building, can be amplified.

A How Mhmm. You know, Concert was established by seed funding from from the large firm round table. So how from people that are listening now that are from small or medium Mhmm. Size firms, you know, how Is there is there a mindset shift that they can make? Like, what what recommendations do you have for them in terms of being more entrepreneurial, and what are potentially some first steps that they can take.

C Mhmm. Yeah. So I I interpret that question as sort of what is this? What can we do? Who do we go see? Who do we talk to? How And and, you know, the people I admire and have come to admire in in the last 8 years, especially, A lot of them are very frustrated with architects, honestly, or they are frustrated architects. I don't know how many presentations I've Sat in where someone says that they're a reformed architect or a reformed engineer. I think we recognize our own pathology of complacency or just how Feeling stuck inside the guardrails because of our contracts, because of the service model that hasn't changed in so long. How We just gotta end that. I mean, we we have, again, all this embodied talent and access. There's so, how In the age of the Internet, you can access expertise, you can access capital.

C Capital is especially interesting now because how You can access funds that are tied to agendas, especially something sustainable. One extension of the blockchain was an exploration of how currency in that, you know, you may have heard of Bitcoin or Ethereum, but there's thousands of cryptocurrencies out there. You can set 1 up tomorrow if you want to, but There's one that was introduced earlier this month that Steve Wozniak's attached to it. But what's fascinating about that is that it allows how For you to invest in environmental projects, you know, for $1, if you wanna get if you only wanna, know, put whatever is in your wallet right now into it and then see a return on it. What if the social coin was tied, you know, or architects how Orchestrated a some sort of social coin for even a project for developing a school or affordable housing in a neighborhood Where anyone can contribute and get a return if there's any profits on it. It's you know, on one hand, it's it's no different than crowdfunding, but because of by virtue of the blockchain technologies, the value is absolutely known. So fascinating places we could go if we just have the imagination to go in there and then hopefully go deep.

B So, Evelyn, Adam talked about a lot of things in this episode. You've got a little bit of tech. You've got some, entrepreneurship in there, and you and he's definitely also talking about how to disrupt the industry. I wanna hear more about why you wanted to invite him on.

A Yeah. So, how You know, build tech, CRE tech, is a growing space that I really think the industry needs to keep their eye on. How The AEC industry contributes 13% to the world's global GDP. So that's nearly a $13,000,000,000,000 market By 2022, I believe Adam said this too. That's in the eyes of investors and opportunists how out there and entrepreneurs out there, really, an opportunity, not only for them, but for architects how to do some good in the world and really make more money, increase their value through new products how and services.

B Yeah. Adam talked a lot about a shift in value proposition, which I think was really to the point about where this is heading. We're thinking about the business model of architecture differently. And by thinking about where the value offering comes in, allows us to start challenging the traditional practice model and looking at redesigning it. So he's he's been talking a lot about, expanding our agency and where we can go with this profession.

A Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, whether it's how Practice being disrupted as the title of the podcast is. Adam prefers to view it as a a recomposition of the profession. I just hope that, you know, my biggest takeaway, other than maybe a very small introduction to blockchain, is that there is a lot of movement happening in this space that is going to be affecting all areas of how we do business. And we can either let that happen to us or we can find a way to engage. I think one of the interesting things, you know and we've how Talk to individuals like Moe last season who came out of architecture as an architecture background and launched his own SaaS company. That's definitely one way to do it.

A Another thing that Adam has done With Concert is he acknowledged that, you know and the group that he's working with acknowledged that They are the problem solvers. They've identified these problems, but they're they're not the ones to to ultimately come up with the solution. So they hired out a CEU. So I I don't think that architects are going to necessarily be the solution to all, but I think we can You know, there's a lot of companies out there that aren't necessarily backed or founded by architects that are seeing opportunities in the building industry. So we need to see those opportunities and seize them whether it's starting something ourselves how or getting the financial support we need to help somebody else step in and and be a thought partner or a thought leader there.

B How Right. I know a lot of people are concerned when they're thinking about fees, about this perpetual race to the bottom on services for fees, and this is a way to shift that conversation to take a little bit more power back around how do we start design services. And when we start to think about tech start ups. There's a very real possibility to shift the service model. Yeah. And it was interesting.

A How I don't think he alluded it to it in this conversation, but I was talking to him previously, you know, and the large firm round table acknowledges this. And they are they're wary of it. Right? So I think it's to the point that they they backed, how You know, the angel invested their own product to be players in this space. So how This is something that the large firms are already responding to. And there there are definitely individuals out there, smaller individuals, individuals coming out of how School and getting funding. Test fit IO is one that comes to mind. So to ignore it, I think, is just a further detriment to the erosion of our profession. All of us aren't just going to embrace this, right, and become founders and CEOs of new companies.

A But enough of us need to keep an eye on it to make sure that how Our value continues to grow as these different firms and these different organizations begin to spin up.

B I get excited by the potential that there are different designers out there who are working on projects, and they're able to come up with ideas that address specific inefficiencies and create solutions through technology that enhance the work that studios are doing. So that is happening a lot, and, you know, I heard Adam mention, like, taking that kind of ownership away from Autodesk was one that they named that's dominating the market in this space. You know, these smaller companies have a chance to introduce new technology into the space that's basically changing the way architects are practicing every day.

A How Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's a good place to end. Thanks, Janine. Tune in next week, and thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at Hactus of Arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

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