Lessons from the Class of 2020

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operation solution built for architects by architects. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, listeners. It's May.

B And for most universities and colleges, that means it's graduation month. And as many students are celebrating the end of their academic careers and the prospect of beginning their professional careers, we thought it might be interesting to welcome back members of the class of 2020 who graduated into the pandemic. This episode hits a bit home for you, Janine. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it?

A I feel strongly about this episode because I also graduated at a difficult time into the great recession, which had damaging consequences on people in my age bracket. However, after listening to the stories of the individuals joining us today, I think that the class of 2020 had it much worse than we did in some ways. So I remember how difficult it was to be a new grad and facing such a big moment of uncertainty in my career. And when I think about graduation, generally, people are optimistic about the potential of that milestone. However, there's this whole untold story of what happens to the graduates who face difficult moments like the pandemic or a recession. And the reality is it can be quite isolating and a bit frustrating. So we've invited 3 talented emerging leaders to join us from the class of 2020 to share their untold story of what it was like to leave architecture school during the pandemic, to graduate over Zoom, and to find jobs in a very difficult uncertain time. We hope that their lessons will inspire others, and we also hope that firm leaders will listen to these stories to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges that some of our newest graduates entering the profession are facing.

B Alison Katz received a b arc from Carnegie Mellon University in May of 2020 with a minor in social and political history. She is currently working as a design associate for Building Community Workshop, a Texas based nonprofit community design center in Houston. She's interested in the intersection of community based design, sustainability, and politics, and is dedicated to exploring ways to use design tools within the built environment to create a more equitable society for marginalized and historically disenfranchised people.

A Haley Evans graduated with an MArch from Washington University in Saint Louis in May of 2020. In 2018, she received a bachelor of science in architecture from Bowling Green State University. She's currently working as an urban designer at h three Studio, a design, research, and planning firm. She has always steered her practice and studies in a way that integrates architecture, graphic design, and urban design. She's passionate about sustainability and advocates that untraditional design approaches are necessary to create a better and more just future of the built environment.

B Keira Stark received her b arc from Auburn University in May of 2020. She currently lives in Seattle, Washington and works at Third Place Design Cooperative. Kira became interested in community engaged design and affordable housing during her thesis here at Auburn University's design build program, Rural Studio. Kira is also passionate about education and leadership, which stems from her time as treasurer and president of Auburn University's American Institute of Architecture Students or AIAS chapter, as well as serving on the AIAS National Board of Directors as the South Quad director. Kira believes that we all have a role to play in creating a more healthy, sustainable, and equitable future. Let's listen to their stories.

C I've been really lucky this past year in that I haven't lost anybody to COVID. I haven't so far gotten COVID. And professionally, I'm personally very happy where I am. I'm currently working for BC Workshop, a nonprofit architecture firm, based in Texas. I'm currently in Houston, Texas working in the office here and so I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to work for an organization that matches my personal ethic and value in architecture. What really unifies the class of 2020, maybe more than any other class, is a sense of loss of community very abruptly. I think for many people, myself included, graduating college is one of the biggest accomplishments, one can achieve. I know for me, it's certainly, like, top 3 at least, if not top 1.

C And, celebrating that accomplishment with my family was something I was really looking forward to and honestly was kind of holding me over through some of the most difficult times in this 5 year degree. And, realizing that not only were we not gonna be able to celebrate our accomplishment together, but also we weren't going to be given the closure of being able to say goodbye to our colleagues, faculty and staff that got us through these years that saw us grow, that helped shape us. And then also for me, being able to say goodbye to the city of Pittsburgh was something I I didn't really get to do because COVID protocol and trying to be as safe as possible for myself and my community. And so that paired with the uncertainty that I think probably most recent or soon to be recent grads feel when you're kind of reaching the edge of the waterfall that is graduation made it feel kind of like the rug was being pulled out from under me, at least. I was lucky enough to be brought on to a research project with my thesis partner and one of our advisers. I'm gonna shout out Stephanie Danes. And that work this summer really helped ground me in a time when I was otherwise feeling very alone. And although we only met, like, once a week for an hour, being able to see their their face and, like, talk about something I I do deeply care about, which is research and architecture, and we were focusing on cohousing, and I was learning a lot through that process.

C Helped me take my mind off of living at home, which is something I thought I would never have to do again. My home life, especially as an adult looking back, was very traumatic and then having to live through that again as a 26 and 27 year old, I was very aware that my personal identities are not welcome or, in some cases, acknowledged there, and so it was really difficult to to be present while living at home. Over the course of the spring, summer, fall, winter, I applied to over a 130 jobs and I would say conservatively 80% of them never replied to me, saying yes or no. For the class of 2020, many of us lost, the community we were used to being around without really being able to build a new one because of the uncertainty that surrounded us and being ignored as if we didn't exist, and the uncertainty that that creates was really difficult. Hoping that this year will, for lack of a better term, radicalize everybody and realize that we don't have a lot of time to begin to address these issues that need to be addressed now. I'm particularly excited to see what this means for the realm of public interest design or community based design or whatever you wanna call it in architecture. And even more broadly in design fields that work to empower marginalized communities, really at any scale. I hope that we don't forget this year and block it out of our memory.

C I hope we are able to heal from it in a meaningful way, but also be able to carry it with us in a sense with everything that we do.

D I remember the day we got the email from the school saying that they were going to be shut down until April. Classes were going to be virtual, and we would no longer have access to the studio. This news was devastating. I cried for hours. I remember calling my mom and telling her that I wasn't even going to buy a desk for my new home studio. In that moment, I truly believed it was going to be impossible to get the work done without being in the studio. But I did it. I bought a desk, I finished the semester, and I graduated with my master's in architecture from Washington University in St.

D Louis in May of 2020. I went straight from undergrad into grad school. I had spent a majority of my summers interning at firms, but after my graduation from WashU, this was going to be my 1st big, real step into the profession. I had just spent the past 6 years straight talking about what I was going to do after graduation, answering the questions like, what city do you want to move to? What size firm are you interested in? I thought I had had all of these questions answered, but this was all about to change. It was going to become very difficult to find a job opportunity. I really enjoyed my school experience, but I was excited for what was to come after graduation. I was eager to continue this energy and excitement that I had for school and find a way to bring that into my career. As the end of the semester approached, I began applying for jobs.

D I received a lot of the same answers that I'm sure the rest of us did. Sorry, but we're not hiring right now. We don't know what the future holds. Please reach out to us in a few months. Well, those few months passed. The final pinup was over, and I was still receiving the same responses when I sent out applications. At this point, I knew I had to do something different. So, I reached out to a firm that I had worked at the summer before.

D I wasn't expecting them to have an opportunity at this time. They're an urban design firm that did a lot of community engagement. And right now, the community was stuck at home. Luckily, they had just gotten a new project. I signed a 6 month contract and joined the team. I also signed a lease and moved into a studio apartment to start living alone, and I began work. This is when things started to get really difficult for me. I was living alone.

D I was working from home. Most of my friends had left St. Louis. My family was in Texas, and we were living in a global pandemic. These feelings that I experienced while working from home, of sadness and lack of motivation, were new feelings for me. Architecture had always brought me happiness. This made me realize what I really loved about architecture school was being surrounded by your peers and living this shared experience, being constantly surrounded with people who share your drive, passion, and dream. Now, it was just me, here alone in my apartment, with all that passion.

D And at the time, that wasn't enough. Fast forward a few months, where am I now? Well, I'm still here, working from home, alone in my apartment. But as I begin to apply and interview for my next opportunity, I'm starting to rekindle this excitement and drive that I once had. I'm excited to take this and take my next step and jump into the profession.

E I was a girl with a plan. A 7 year plan, to be exact. In March of 2020, I was at Auburn University's rural studio working with 3 other teammates to redesign and rebuild a courtyard for a rural hospital. We were going to graduate from Auburn with our bachelor of architecture in May and spend another year after that living and working in Hale County, Alabama to finish building the hospital courtyard. Since I would technically be a student during the extra year at Rural Studio, I was planning to run for AIAS national president in December 2020 and move to DC for that year long position in July of 2021. Then I would go work in New York for 3 years. After that, I would go back to school for my master's and then become an architecture professor, bringing us to the end of the 7 plus year plan. Ah, the things I wish I could tell my past self.

E A few weeks after COVID caused the entire country to go on lockdown, our hospital courtyard project at Auburn University's rural studio was canceled. This meant that I would not be eligible to run for AIAS president and was also being thrust into the job market years before I had planned. So like every other person whose life was turned upside down by coronavirus, I went into extreme panic mode. I joined every how to get a job in a pandemic webinar I could find and reached out to my mentors for advice on figuring out what I wanted to do with my life. Through a conversation with my AIA mentor, Tim Hock, I first learned about the Enterprise Rose Fellowship. This 2 year long fellowship partners architects with local community development organizations to facilitate an inclusive approach that results in sustainable, healthy, and affordable communities. Although I was not accepted into the fellowship, it did help me rediscover my passions for community engagement, sustainability, and affordable housing. I had a much better idea of what I was looking for in an architecture firm and the type of projects that I wanted to work on.

E I thought I had a great resume and a decent shot at finding a good job. The only problem was no one was hiring. And even though there was a global pandemic, and every 2020 graduate I knew was having an incredibly difficult time finding a job, it felt as if I had done something wrong. I had graduated college, but was still living at home with my parents in Kansas, staying in my childhood bedroom, hot pink walls with butterflies on them and all. I probably averaged about 30 hours a week applying to jobs. The good weeks for ones where I had informational interviews, chatted with Auburn alumni, and received any sort of email response. The bad weeks were ones where I would send out 10 applications or email inquiries a day only to receive no response and watch my job application spreadsheets grow longer and longer. All of this rejection started to take a heavy toll on my mental health.

E I avoided Zoom calls with friends because I didn't wanna hear about someone else who had managed to find a job or talk about how badly things were going for the rest of us. I even skipped 4th July with my extended family because I felt too ashamed and was, frankly, quite depressed. All these led me to see a therapist, which was a huge help and something I plan on doing for the rest of my life. What I realize now is that all these people didn't think I was a failure for having a difficult time finding a job. Rather, they genuinely cared about me and wanted to help in any way that they could. The light at the end of the tunnel came around late October. At this point, I applied to over 123 jobs in 38 cities across the United States. I've been talking to 2 firms for about 2 months and they both offered me a job about a week apart.

E The fact that I had 2 offers in October, actually makes me one of the luckier graduates. So even though looking for a job in the pandemic was pretty horrible, I did gain a lot from the experience. At least, that's what I tell myself. I no longer get nervous before interviews. Well, only a little. And I've learned how to advocate for myself and the value I can bring to a team. I also learned how to not be so hard on myself and take time to do the things I love. I am the girl without a plan and I'm pretty cool with that.

A So this week's episode is very near and dear to my heart. I've invited a group of recent graduates from the class of 2020 to come join us and talk about their experience, not only graduating in 2020, but going through the pandemic and what what that meant for them in terms of trying to launch their career after graduation. So I have Ali, Haley, and Kira, and they are each going to briefly introduce themselves including where they went to school and where they are now. So we'll start with Allie.

C Hi. I'm Ali. I went to Carnegie Mellon University. I'm a graduate of the bachelor's of architecture, and I'm currently in Houston, Texas working for BC Workshop. Great. Haley, go ahead.

D Hi. I'm Haley Evans. I graduated with my master's in architecture from Washington University in Saint Louis. I'm living here in Saint Louis, and I'm working for an urban design firm called h three Studio.

A And Kira.

F I'm Kira. I went to school at Auburn University in Alabama, graduated with my bachelor of architecture, and I'm currently in Seattle, Washington working for a firm called Third Place Design Cooperative.

A So the reason this episode is particularly exciting for me is that I feel like these stories were untold last year while everybody was going through, a difficult time, and anybody in the world was kind of facing uncertainty. And so I don't feel like there was a lot of attention given to some of the specific challenges that students face during this time. It kinda went under the radar as the entire world was trying to figure out what to do right at the end of the spring and figuring out, like, how are we gonna keep our businesses going? How are we gonna navigate all of the things going on with our government and our world health response. But in terms of how it impacted students, I I wanted to start off by asking all of you, based on listening to the stories that you all shared, what stood out to you in each other's stories?

F I think our, shared loneliness that even though we were going through almost the exact same thing, we had very similar things happen to us, We still felt very isolated and everything because we were physically isolated. So yes, we all graduated in a pandemic. We all had a hard time finding a job. But it just felt so lonely during all of it.

C Yeah. I think it was a loneliness paired with an uncertainty. And, unlike maybe the class of 2021, which, like, at least virtually got to come back, as a cohort and continue their education, whether it be, like, kind of together or virtually. For those of us who had graduated and left the cities that we were in or maybe even not even left those cities, but left our programs, we lost, like, the support systems that we had in place as like, through our time in school and then kind of entered a world where we were almost unable to build new support systems because of kind of the uncertainty we were all facing. And I think, at least for me, like, I did find a lot of comfort in talking to friends from school, but we were all kind of in our own we were all in different states. We weren't even near each other at all, physically, and we were all kind of going through the same uncertainty and anxiety moving forward because we were kind of experiencing the same sense of, like, rejection from jobs or, like, even a lack of communication?

D Yeah. So much so much uncertainty. We had lost our community, which was architecture school. And, yeah, the rejection that we had all faced, it was I wonder how many applications the 3 of us combined had sent, and then add that to everybody else's. I can't even imagine the inboxes of these firms. But, yeah, the the loss of community coupled with this rejection is so much stress on top of the stress of learning to exist during a pandemic.

C I was just gonna say, like, that kind of combined with, I think, the normal sense of, uncertainty that people are faced when they're about to graduate, being unsure of where they're going to be living, the process of finding housing when you, you know, get a job is in itself really stressful, but when you don't even know what your actual timeline is anymore because all the firms you're talking to have kind of pushed back their hiring process by at least months, it's it's really uprooting for people.

A I was wondering if 1 of you could share maybe your your experience of when you got the news that you weren't gonna be able to be in studio anymore. And from the big picture sense, like, what that felt like when you were asked to leave studio and you had to go home, what was that experience like for you?

C So I was on spring break in a very secluded house in the middle of Maryland with a few close friends when we started getting the emails about everything. And we realized, like, when we got back to Pittsburgh, we pretty much had to drop all of our plans, move out of studio, figure out how exactly we were gonna be able to work from home, and then, kind of continue on as if nothing had happened, which is insane, like insane. And they gave us we were lucky compared to some students. I heard some horror stories where some students were given a matter of hours to move out of studio. Once they got the news, we were given a couple days to do that at least. I think the idea of moving out of studio was really hard because, like, as you're about to graduate, you think of kind of what that last day in studio would be like. And then kind of like everything else that's kind of ripped away from you, you see a couple people in passing as you're moving out, but you don't get to see your entire class or at least I didn't get to. And for some people, like, that was the last time I saw them.

C We didn't get to see each other again, period, which sucks. But I will say that I think disrupting the way we were working in studio actually benefited us in some way because studio culture can be really toxic as well, and so forcing us to kind of change our schedule and being in thesis, my thesis partner and I decided to really prioritize ourselves and our health over anything else. And so while moving back home, it also allowed us, I think, to kind of break some of the really unhealthy cycles working in studio had. Though, obviously, like, there was definitely a loss of social time and experience just seeing, like, the people that we had kind of come up with the past 5 years.

A I can imagine that'd be very hard not being able to see your class when you guys walk. Can you explain to us what virtual studio was like? I know we've heard on previous episodes in the podcast how difficult it was professionally for firms to make this shift. I'm curious, like, what was it like in the academic setting when you guys went online? And, also, what was it like at graduation when you guys did graduation online?

D I would say the graduation was underwhelming. I was living with my roommate at the time, and we were both in architecture. So once they said our names, they just came up on the screen. We gave each other a hug on the sofa, and then, like, I we went on a walk later that day. It really wasn't, like, this big ending hurrah that we had expected. Like, we popped a bottle of champagne, and that was about it for the celebration.

F Yeah. We didn't actually have a graduation, even virtually. Auburn said that they were going to have an in person one in August and then 2 weeks before August when they realized oh COVID's still pretty bad. Maybe we shouldn't have thousands of people in a stadium. They just canceled it and then and then never did anything at all.

A So I've heard through each of your stories, you guys touched on lessons that you took away from this experience. I wanna come back to that and let you guys talk about that a little bit more because I heard some common themes.

F Where to begin? I think we got good at being rejected. I think that we all became much more resilient after all of this. Whether that was the goal or not, it was an outcome. I do kind of feel like if something if next time next time there's a recession, then I will I will be a bit more prepared for the outcomes, I suppose. But I think it showed us that even through all the troubles of the pandemic, even though it took a lot longer than we thought, we eventually did find jobs. It wasn't the way we planned, it wasn't what we wanted, but we do all feel very happy with where we are now. So the road was tough, but the end is still a good outcome.

D And that's something that I've always appreciated about designers. I feel like we just are always striving to to to solve a problem. And although it takes a lot of work and our situation took months, but, yes, we did we did all eventually get jobs. But, yeah, we as design, we we exist to solve a problem, and that helped us get to that point. And through the process, it probably made us better designers as well.

C I think for me, the lesson of 2020 is the importance of community. And there's so many different types of community. There's, as we all know right now, virtual community, the people that you reach out to no matter where they are in the world that you can lean on. But also there's your immediate community. And with it wasn't just COVID that we were facing this year. It's a, racial justice reckoning and everything else. Climate action needs to be taken. And I think this past year has given us the time, whether we want it or not, to begin to think about kind of how at least big these issues are, what maybe we don't know exactly how we fit into them quite yet.

C But at least I think it's much more mainstream to be thinking about these issues kind of in everyday life, hopefully. And so I think also understanding like, for me, at least, the lesson is also, like, the importance of being able to plug into the community you're in. And I I will say I don't think that 2020 made me more resilient and that's partially because of what I've been through in my life. I kind of built resilience really young, but I think it did teach me that there are some things that I can't fix and I need to be able to prioritize my energy in areas that actually do benefit me and people around me rather than maybe trying to fix relationships that, are broken beyond repair.

A Yeah. And I you know, it was striking to me to hear you guys talk about well, some of you talked about moving home. I heard through your stories different coping mechanisms of how you guys were trying to communicate with yourself to fight that loneliness, to, like, fight that feeling of loss of community in order to just get through the process of what you needed to do, to get to jobs, which is impressive because I think, you know, as someone who went through the recession as a recent grad, which is why I have such a place for you all in my heart and feel your challenges that you guys have just come through. What's striking to me is that you guys did land in firms because that I don't think I mean, that's significant. It it talks to each of your strength and determination to figure that out for yourself because I do know a lot of friends that have left the industry, and I'm sure you guys know people too that, like, this process might have been too hard for them to make it into a firm setting.

C I was very close to leaving the profession, and I think a part of that is because what drove me to study architecture was a desire to help marginalized communities. And I think I always knew my path could either be architectural or not, and I was kind of weighing those options. Though I will say there's still not a lot of options on the other side, and that's honestly what kept me in architecture because I had I've worked for BC Workshop before and they were a part of my network and they were very communicative with me about where they were in the hiring process and absolutely loved working for them before and their mission and everything. But honestly if this opportunity hadn't existed, I very well could have been working in an adjacent, part of all of this, which I would have totally been fine with. But they, like I will say the hiring pool is really felt, at least, really against us because a lot of people jobs and they were then looking for work. And so even in the nonprofit sector, a lot of the openings were maybe senior more senior positions or people who were coming from more senior positions were applying for the entry level jobs. So for a lot of jobs that I had applied for, my friends had applied for, we see people that we we knew and kind of think of as mentors taking the positions that we were applying for and that sucks for everybody because then they're potentially taking a pay cut or were removed from a situation they didn't wanna be removed from. And also that means there's less opportunities for us.

A Well, I'm glad you're touching on it because I I did wanna talk about these 100 plus job applications that you all submitted. I mean, I think when I was in the recession, I think I probably did maybe somewhere between 4060, but a130? I mean, really? Wow. Let's talk about that. I think that there's a lot to discuss.

F Yeah. One of the things that I heard from one of my mentors, Tim Hawk, is that of the firms that you apply to, only 20% will respond to you. It's a general statistic. Whether you're in a pandemic or a recession, 20% is basically the norm. So it's kind of a numbers game. In a pandemic, that 20% was probably 5%, but it was still a numbers game just with a smaller percentage. I think what helped for all of us was reaching out to existing networks whether that's an internship, an alumni, someone from AIS that you knew, really any sort of network, no matter how distant, was extremely helpful. Even if they were just willing to have a conversation with you, it was worth definitely worth the time just to reach out for conversation.

C Yeah. I think also speaking to the 130 number, Kiara, I think you mentioned having an Excel sheet of all of the jobs, and I 100% relate to that. There was, like, an insane amount of inputs, like, last time I looked at their website to see if they had jobs. But I will say that, like, the the people that took the time to to talk to me, to interview me, I think that all did help and it began to help me at least see a future out of this even if, like, those opportunities didn't pan out. We actually both applied for the Rose Fellowship and had that experience as well and and that process, in particular, was really great for me in, like, building networks and realizing I was part of networks already that I didn't know I was a part of.

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A Well, let's talk about what jobs you did land. So in terms of time line, how you're gonna have to remind me. I know we talked about it in our planning session, but what month after graduation did you guys finally get your job offers?

D I started working at h three, and it was June or July.

A That's actually fairly quickly.

D It it was, but it was because I was seeing my my core group of friends all getting jobs. Like, Kira, you had mentioned, you're you're avoiding the Zoom call because everybody's saying, oh, I just got this. You're also hearing their rejection stories, but the acceptance letters, you can feel more. But, yeah, a lot of my friends had been starting to receive job offers. The reason that majority of them had gotten them is because they did reach out to firms that they had worked at previously. So I was like, I'm gonna do the same thing, and luckily, it was perfect timing.

F If the firm that you interned at in the past is not hiring, but you do have someone at that firm that you have a closer connection with, reach out to this individual to ask if any of their friends, other firms around the country have any potential openings. So even if the firm you entered for may not, they probably know people that do have open positions, hopefully.

A I think if you're sending an application into an inbox, like, that is probably the most depressing process for going after a job. Like, I mean, it's just a void, and and the probability of getting a response is really low. But human connections trying to, like, connect the dots between who you know and who knows other people is really important, and I think that's a very essential skill towards getting to a job. Because when people either have someone that's referring you or that can validate that you're a professional worker and that they they should trust you, I mean, it just gets someone's attention that much more quickly than when they get a cold call or a cold email.

C Yeah. So I my dream job was to work for BC Workshop, but they were not hiring. So the over the summer, I actually ended up doing very part time research and then also very part time, freelance illustration work while applying to jobs, and I reached out to an old firm, the first firm I interned at, and that almost worked out and then didn't. But one of the principals there knows, like, my interest in public interest design and is on the board of a CDC in Pittsburgh and connected me to them, and then that was, like, a whole long process of interviewing with them that didn't end up panning out, but it was interesting to kind of go through that network and get to, like, go through, like, the interviewing process of the whole nonprofit ecosystem on in Pittsburgh, which I'm, at this point, really familiar with. And I I was really lucky at a lot of people, professors especially. I shout out Stephanie Danes in my prerecording. She also reached out a lot for me and my thesis partner in looking for work and, like, was a real champion for us, so I wanna, like, thank her especially. But it's really funny because had I I could have not applied to any jobs and end up where I am now.

C But I was really persistent with BC and they knew that I, a, like, I had a great experience working for them and and they had seemed to have interest in me coming back every summer. And although for a summer I didn't come back, there was always an understanding that we had wanted to work together in the future, hopefully, at some point. And I was just really persistent in letting them know that I was still very much a free agent and looking for work. And so eventually, in February, that's when I ended up working for them remotely, and then I moved here in in March.

A Excellent. Congratulations on landing your dream job. Kiara, when did you start working?

F So I got the offer in late October, started working on September 9th, and then moved to Seattle on November 7th. And so I mentioned in my story that November 7th was the day that Biden was elected. What I didn't mention is that he was it was announced that he was elected while I was in the plane. And so once I got to apartment once I moved into my apartment, a family friend from Seattle took me out to lunch. And when we went for lunch, there is a huge, like, block party celebration in the city. And it was like this moment of, wow, everything is meant to be. Everyone is, like, wearing a mask, but partying and dancing together. And there are cars driving by, honking in the streets, music.

F It was just like, wow. All of this pain and awfulness from job searching led me to this city where I feel so alive and so at home. It was like a wonderful, wow, I made it type of moment.

A Well, I wanna come back, Ali, something you said you were talking about something that your professional contact did that was really to your benefit. Let's talk about what you wish firm leaders knew or something that you saw someone do for you during this process that was really helpful. What what can we pass forward to the industry so they're aware of what what's really helpful for your class?

C The number one thing is please reply. I don't care if it's, like, nope, l o l, never. That's better than nothing. The worst thing, especially as a recent grad, is uncertainty and the only thing you're doing when you're not replying is adding more uncertainty and, for me, at least, I would much rather prefer rejection. Even a brutal, terrible, rude rejection, over being ignored. And for everyone who replied to me, they were, like, wonderfully kind and compassionate and I appreciate that, but for those who don't have the time or patience to do that, please just say no and let us move on. For those who took the time and interviewed, getting feedback, was really helpful from those who did that. So if you have the time or capacity to include that in your process of interviewing people, that's really helpful and that's something that I experienced, especially through the Rose Fellowship.

C And anyone, like, whether you're a professor or a mentor or a past employer, if you're unable to employ someone but you know you have contacts that that person might be interested in working for, please connect them. That was such a help for my friends and how some of them got jobs and they're really excited about their positions and I'm really excited for them, but that would have never happened if, thank you Stephanie Danes once again, if, we didn't have wonderful mentors who were willing to stick their neck out for us, take the time, connect us to people who have the same interest. So that's another thing that could be really helpful.

D Starting your 1st day virtual, I I have luckily known who I was working with. I only worked there part time, so we weren't I didn't know the inner workings of how things went on. And then now you're at home, and through Zoom, you it's very difficult to understand how normal operations go, and they are trying to maintain as much normalcy as they can. But, also, you're eager to jump into the job and start work. So there I feel like there's needs to be some kind of in between of letting you jump right in, but, also, we gotta hold on just a minute and let you know these are a few things you need to know before we get started.

F There was a firm that I had applied to, and they had some rural studio connections where I knew the principal of the firm. And so instead of sending them an email asking if they were hiring, I asked if I could just have a conversation to get some advice and learn from them so during during that conversation it was just a quick 15 minute chat. He did inform me that they were not hiring, but he did help. He did tell me that the 2 architecture markets that do the best throughout all recessions are housing, specifically multifamily housing, and health care. And so I heard this tidbit of advice around August, so kind of later in my search. But it did help me kind of target more firms that were doing multifamily housing. And the firm that I'm at now does a lot of affordable housing. So it was really good advice.

F So if you are searching for a job and you're wondering like, wow. Like, where do I even begin? Like, how do I even start the search? Looking for firms that are doing housing and health care is definitely a good start in the pandemic.

C A pro tip if you want in, in a firm that you don't have any connections in, all lectures are virtual right now, so if they're lecturing anywhere, tune in if you can and see what they're about. Obviously, it won't give you everything you need to know, but if you do get a chance to meet with, like, someone who works there, then you'll have something to talk about with them as well. And it might give you a better sense of if you can even see yourself there. But a lot of like, before 2020, geography was a huge barrier for a lot of lectures, and now you can access them from pretty much anywhere. So that's a great thing to consider.

D Yeah. That's that's great advice. I'm going to do that.

A Do you all have any questions for each other?

F I'm kind of curious. After the end of all of this, like, looking looking back on the past year, do you wish that things would have been normal? Like, do you wish that if you could just control z, erase the whole pandemic, and erase your horrible job search, would you have done it? Or do you feel like this experience taught you enough lessons that you're grateful for it and are happy that it happened in a weird, twisted way.

C For me, in a weird way, would have hoped to have end up in the same place, but I do have my brother with me now here. And in some ways that makes it kind of okay that this all kind of worked out the way it is because I really appreciate him coming down here with me, and also I hope that this becomes an opportunity for him as well to leave where we're from and for us to kind of rebuild our relationship because we haven't lived in the same place for a really long time. I guess if you're comparing just outcomes, then I would prefer this outcome versus the other outcome. But, obviously, this outcome comes with a lot of global baggage. So

D Yeah. I guess I wouldn't change a thing. Maybe. I I had always been interested in urban design, but I was definitely pursuing more of an architectural role when I was applying and focusing on firms that, like, dabbled in urban design. But now I'm working as an urban designer. Something that I hadn't expected was going to happen, but I'm, like, getting to live and experience this position that I was really interested in. So that's pretty good.

F I'll go ahead and answer my own question. So before the pandemic and kind of still now, I was very much a type a control freak and had to have a plan and everything had to be figured out. And if it wasn't exactly the way that I had planned it, it was going to be awful. And so I think that the pandemic has made me a much more chill person. Things also got so bad that I felt that I had to see a therapist. And so it sucks that things got that bad, but it led me down a much better path. And my mental health now is, like, better than it's been in years. So it sucks that things had to get that bad to lead me to this place, But I think it kind of helps me address a lot of, like, personal anxieties that I now feel a lot better about where life is.

C Can I mention one technical thing that graduating kind of screwed me over on? And that was health insurance. For half the year, I was not insured and I didn't know because I signed up through New York State of Health. Sorry. This is technical. I went to school out of state, had health insurance through then them. It ended in July. Immediately signed up for in state health insurance, but they didn't tell me that I needed a, like, notice of termination of my other health insurance, so I didn't know I didn't have health insurance until I got the flu shot and I had to pay in full for that and that was $40, so it was fine. Thank God I did not get sick.

C That was terrifying. So, if anyone's listening and you are about to graduate and you're worried about health insurance, be in contact with them and get all the documents you need so you can stay safe. That was very bad. Do not advise to be uninsured during a pandemic.

A I wanted to close by just saying that you all are officially not only pandemic survivors. You're class of 2020 survivors forever. You are now professional working women in the industry, and I wanna ask you all, what words of advice can you give to the class of 2021 who is graduating right now in the month that this episode will air and will be heading out into the world to try and figure out their career.

C Okay. I'm gonna first say the most obvious thing, and that's lean into your networks. We've already kind of covered that. I think be patient with yourself too. Take inventory of what your interests are and your passions and, honestly, that's your best selling point when it comes to to jobs. They wanna work with people whose values align with theirs, and so definitely, like, do your best to kind of soul search in this last, don't know, what day is it, last couple weeks you have, and figure out, you know, what that means for you, who kind of aligns with your architectural ethic or the values you hold. And then if you find your path deviating from architecture, it's okay. There's a lot of stigma against, like, not capital a architecture sometimes and I I really hope this generation kind of gets rid of that because we need everybody fighting the good fight.

C So if you wanna stay in architecture, that's great. Welcome. And if you find yourself looking at other opportunities, that's great too. And good luck. And if I can help in any way, please reach out.

D Yeah. I completely agree with that. Don't give up. And if you have a secondary passion, explore it. You don't need to be on the same trajectory as everyone else. I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, well that will be a great experience, it will be a great learning experience. But it's not it's not what I'm passionate about. It's not something that gets me super excited.

D So maybe it's not. Maybe it would be great for somebody else, but I'm looking for something different. And it's definitely scarier, but go towards it and just see what happens because you might find a new passion or something else to incorporate into your passion of architecture.

F I would say that it's okay to not have any answers at all. If someone asks you what type of architecture you want to pursue and you have no idea what your interests are, that is fine. You may hate your 1st job and that is also fine because it will teach you what you don't like. Not every experience has to be perfect. You don't need to get your dream job. And in fact, if you do get your dream job starting out, that's awesome, but it's also highly unlikely that you will stay there forever. And whether you may think an experience is good or bad, like, it it shapes who you are. The pandemic was horrible, but none of us would take back or completely change how things happened.

F The experience shapes who you are, good or bad. So just go with that and be happy that you're on the journey of life. As as weird as that sounds, like, life is a journey. Enjoy it. You may be in architecture. You may not. But as long as you're happy and have good people surrounding you, a job can be just a job.

A So, Evelyn, I thought this would be a good chance to take a minute and talk about uncertainty. You know, we both were working together when the pandemic hit, and we're starting to collaborate on the podcast. And I think, you know, just listening to these stories, you can hear so much uncertainty and the challenges that these individuals faced in trying to navigate their career. And I'm wondering, you know, in part, like, what can we learn from the class of 2020 about navigating uncertainty, but also collectively, how how maybe you and I have dealt with uncertainty in our own careers.

B One of the themes that ran through the conversations that you had with them as well as something that I've always turned to is the strength of my network. Right? That's always been true about whether or not I am trying to find a new job, whether or not I want to test out a new idea. And we saw even kind of a more organic growth of people just wanting to have a conversation around what was going on. When we did that COVID working document at the beginning of the year, just selecting best practices of what firms were doing and how they were communicating out to their employees at the beginning of the pandemic.

A Yeah. I remember it was a really scary moment. And, I mean, I'm looking back now a year later, and it feels entirely different than it did at the moment. There were so many unknown variables. And I think you and I early were trying to figure out, like, well, how can we help? What can we do? We can't just sit here at our homes and not do anything. Like, I very, like, very vividly remember you saying, like, I just I feel like I need to do something. And so that's when we started collaborating on trying to gather data. And you put together this, like, massive Google Doc that had all these resources.

A But I I think, you know, from my own career, in in what I experienced going through the recession into my own career that felt very delayed, because of the recession. You know, I I would say that the biggest thing that I think I gained was resilience. And I heard that a little bit in their stories, but just just this idea that I think the first time as a professional that you face uncertainty, you can feel a little bit intimidated and unsure. But what I've learned is the more confidently. So when when the pandemic hit, it felt familiar in many ways to the recession, and I knew it was going to be a period of time that was difficult. But at some point, we would come through it. And that was kinda how I held through over the past year is just trying to, like, get to the point where we were coming through it.

B One of the things that I wanna stress really for me is that movement and momentum breeds clarity. So I think if you start moving in a direction whether or not it's the right run whenever I get stuck, right, I the hardest part for me is to kind of figure out how to get myself going again. And just knowing that kind of repeating to myself, movement breeds clarity, and it'll help me get to the next step. But if you don't move, you will never get to that next step.

A I agree because I think, you know, sometimes, like, in fight fight or flight mode, you know, you can have this desire to wanna, like, freeze. But when you stand still, it becomes much harder later to take movement and action. But any action, I think, it it helps take steps forward. And so, like, I heard in these stories, these girls are sending out, like, 60 resumes plus to all these different firms. And when you are in that moment of, here's number 30 or 31 resume going out, it can feel really daunting in those small incremental moments of progress can feel quite insignificant. But I think you can hear it in the story that after the sum of all the parts were added up for these girls, where they're at now, they know that each milestone really culminated in in helping them get to where they landed in their careers.

B Right. And I think when anyone is on the job hunt, no matter where they are in their career, And this isn't this is true of social forums that I've been in. Right? People have lost their jobs, and you can you can almost sense the panic in their voice when they talk about how many applications they sent out. You know, how many, you know, what what they're doing throughout the day on the job boards. I think if you look back at all of the suggestions that we've made when it comes to marketing and communications firm, and communicating the value of the firm, This is true of how you market and communicate the value of yourself. Really craft a unique like, take more time to craft a unique response to a single individual firm than doing a copy and paste kind of spreadsheet. Frantic search. And I think it'll also help you learn a little bit more about yourself.

B And then when you do get to the next step where you're in an interview interview, you can actually talk with greater clarity about why you want to participate at their firm, and how you are different from any other candidate that they're seeing out there.

A Exactly. And I think the last thing that I just wanna say is that for anyone who's navigating uncertainty or is in a moment of confusion, like, those moments can feel really bad, and you can feel really alone. And I think that the skill to work on is to be able to sit with that uncomfortable moment and decide that you're gonna do something and accept that maybe it's unclear or it's not in focus yet, but it doesn't mean that there won't be movement forward. Like Evelyn said, like, if you can just take some incremental steps forward, it will start to get you going in a direction. And while you might not have the resolution immediately, with time and persistence, you will find your way out of uncertainty, and you will find path forward.

B And on that note, thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph.

A Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health.

B Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

A We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

B And if you wanna take your career practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, and we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

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