Next Generation Leadership: How AIAS Presidents Are Building a More Human Profession

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today's conversation is a little different and a really meaningful one for me. As I wrap my term as AIA President, I wanted to slow down and have an honest conversation about leadership. Not just what it looks like from the outside, but how it's shaped over time, how how it's tested, and how it evolves across generations.

A Joining me are two leaders who represent the future of our profession in powerful ways. Gilberto Lazada Baez is a Mexican architect and the 69th President of the American Institute of Architecture Students. His work explores architecture as a process that honors ecological and cultural dynamics, and his leadership spans AIAs, or the American Institute of Architecture Students, ACSA, or the American Collegiate Schools of Architecture, and now the AI Strategic Council with a deep commitment to collaboration across borders. Jordan Luther is an aspiring architect and medical planner at gbvn, the immediate past president of AIAS, and the student director on the AIAA board. Her work bridges design, psychology and neuroscience with a strong focus on well being, research and trauma informed design. Together we talked candidly about leadership and empathy, generational shifts, and what the profession needs next. Hi Jordan. Hi Roberto.

A Welcome to the show. It's so nice to have you on Practice Disrupted.

B Hi Evelyn. Thank you so much for having us. Excited to be here.

C Yes, we're very excited. Thank you for having us, Evelyn.

A Of course. I just ran the intros, which has a little bit of your bios, but one of the reasons why I wanted to bring the two of you on, especially as I'm exiting my term as AIA President, was just to have a really honest, honest conversation about leadership in general. Not only let you ask questions about my leadership path, but also learn what students coming out of school are expecting from their firm leaders as well.

B Absolutely. Well, I know as you're wrapping up your term as AIA president and with all of your leadership experience, you have so much to offer. And I know one thing that I would be really curious to hear more about is when you look back, were there early leadership experiences, good or bad, that shape the kind of leader that you consciously chose to become today?

A Absolutely. So the interesting response to that is the best leaders, and I've said this before, but I also think it's worth repeating. So fortunately or unfortunately, the best leaders that I've had in my experience came out of tech and more specifically out of my time at Slack during the pandemic. I think it was really wonderful to see how that company reacted to their employees in a time where no one knew what was going on. Right. But one, they, they showed a more human side of leadership than I had ever seen. We were all at home with our kids. Our kids.

A They were at home with their kids and, you know, their kids were on zoom. Our kids were on zoom. It was, it was the reality of the situation. The other thing is, I think they were open about not knowing what they were doing. As a silly kind of easy example is we started with we're going to zoom and everyone should have a camera on all the time. And then zoom fatigue became a thing and they acknowledged that that's a policy that we are going to have to continue to change and adopt over time as we figure things out. But that was true of all of the policies that we were adopting as we went from a very in person organization in and company to what does it mean to be remote first, the other thing, the other example I give, and Jordan, you may have heard this at the Women's Leadership Summit, is there's this great manager that always started, I think a lot of people, including myself, started meetings with how's your day going? Which is a perfectly fine question to ask anyone. But as a manager, she would always start her meetings by telling people how her day was going.

A And sometimes it was going horribly wrong. And it involved forgetting to bring her kids, pack her kids, lunch for school. But I think that that really sets the parameter that it's okay to talk about some personal things within the meeting and it's a safe place and it opens it up for greater conversation than just asking, how was your day? And then I guess on the flip side of that, I have seen incredible people who I thought were incredible leaders act poorly behind the scenes. And I've definitely just taken note of like, I don't want to be that type of leader too.

B No. I remember hearing you share that story at the Women's Leadership Summit. And I think that there's just an incredible amount of authenticity that comes with a lot of the things that you were just sharing about and being a leader and having empathy and leading with transparency and also being willing to really accept change and be nimble as things come along and acknowledging that leadership doesn't have to be a straight line and it shouldn't be. And our journeys, they can ebb and flow and things can be more organic, but also recognizing that as a leader you don't have to be perfect and you can be authentic and there's a lot that comes along with that.

A How did you two decide to step into your leadership roles? Because when I was your age, I was so in awe of the people that ran for your positions and I never thought I could. I mean, honestly, I never thought that I could do anything like that. So how did you find the courage.

C To do that one that. I feel like my leadership journey has never really been about myself. It has always been brought forward or like motivated by others. Personally, I'm a bit of an introvert and I also am very self conscious of what I do and how I do it. And so I always kind of like think about things two or three times, five before I do them. But really when I was just getting involved with the AIs, I had a lot of people come up to me and sort of recognize some of the skills or the abilities or qualities that I had and motivate me to step into those leadership positions. So I really think that if it's hadn't been for those leaders that came before me, for those mentors, I would not have ended up being president of the organization this time around. And it's also wonderful to have Jordan on here as well because she was a crucial person in this leadership journey for myself.

C I mean, we were friends before I decided to run for vice president last year and now she's like past president, coaching me through the whole thing. So really for me, the thing that motivated me or made me decide to step into leadership was that other people believing in me and also wanting to give back to the community that had given me so much. Because sometimes when there's a good thing, you just want it to last and you want it to continue for others that are coming like you. So I guess that's part of what would let me down this path.

B I definitely resonate a lot with Gilberto's story as well and am deeply humbled to hear your kind words. You've been someone who's motivated me all throughout my AIs journey as well, particularly in these past couple of years and just so lucky to get to work with you. I also am definitely someone who considers myself to be an introvert. I feel like I've, over the years, as I've taken on more leadership roles, have become A little bit more extroverted, but definitely the introvert in me has always kind of come out. And I also never ever would have imagined myself taking on leadership opportunities. When I was in high school, I was involved with student government, but always as like a recording secretary and always somebody who is more so kind of listening in and doing work behind the scenes, but never actively speaking in front of people. I've always had a fear of public speaking and never ever would have been able.

A I never would have guessed that of either of you.

B I still, I still get so nervous and it takes a lot of like hyping myself up every time that I, I do it. But I, like Gilberto was saying for me, was also having people that really believed in me and saw something in myself that I never ever saw when I joined AIs back in 2017, which is crazy to think that we're going on almost, almost a decade in the organization. But I joined, just started going to meetings I had the president at the time noticed that I was going as the one lonely freshman and just started taking me in and saw that I was there and said, hey, you should get more involved in this. And as I got more involved, kind of similarly to Gilberto, he saw, he saw something in me and started to say, hey, why don't you apply for this position? And I just saw the community that was within the organization and how much everyone really supported each other and really cared about the mission and making, you know, improving culture and trying to make the world, I know, as cheesy as it sounds, but trying to make the world a better place and was just so passionate about everything that they did. And it was also really a place that I sought for mentorship too and just wanting to do something positive and wanting to do the same for that. So much everyone had done for me, I wanted to do the same for others. So I also never ever saw myself as a leader, especially earlier on in my journey and still just deeply humbled to be considered as a leader now and never ever would have imagined myself in this position either.

A I do want to kind of revisit the whole idea. Like I've never saw myself as a leader because it's something that I constantly say too. But then as I have an 8 and a 10 year old at home and they are, my daughter is in third grade for the first time and when you're in third grade, you're a big buddy for like the kindergartners and the pre K and you know, she kind of acknowledged that her little buddy looks up to her. So I think whether or not we want to fully acknowledge it, no matter where we are in our careers, somebody is looking up to us, saying, like, I want to be a little bit more like them or they're taking cues from us. So I think there's a little bit of leadership that's happening, no matter unintentional or intentional, which is always, frankly now on the back of my mind, even just how I'm interacting with people at any event that I'm in.

C Yeah. And I think a very important part of that, and it's something that kind of like came up and what the three of us were saying is community. Right. Community. And just having these bonds with people that we're sharing our day to day with, but that we also look up to and kind of like guide us when we know that there is a necessity for change. And that also show us that it's okay for there to be like certain things that are not okay, but like also how to navigate them is part of what sets the ground for leadership to emerge. Maybe.

A Yeah. Well, that and then I think the importance of being pulled along. And I didn't share it earlier when you asked the opening question, but so much of my leadership was just showing up and doing the work and someone else acknowledging that and asking me to do more. And I feel like now it's incumbent on me. Right. To do that for the people that are coming behind. Constantly asking, who wants to run for the board, who wants to volunteer for service at the national level. But it's interesting, Jordan, that you say it's because of.

A I haven't fully acknowledged it. Like, I think it is because I love the organization and the profession so much and I want to make sure it stays ready or that culture remains intact. But it is also because, like, I. There's some incredible people coming behind me that I also want to live up. But I like that kind of new perspective. It is what I'm doing just subconsciously.

B Yeah, no, definitely. I think one of the things that we talk a lot about in the AIs is shoulder tapping and just when you see something and someone who could be a really good leader telling them and really acknowledging that. And also just saying yes to things too. Just starting to put yourself out there, even if it's a little scary. One of my favorite expressions that we always say is be comfortable being uncomfortable and kind of putting yourself out there doing something that might feel a little bit scary at first, that you're not as familiar with, but taking that leap. And I think that that's where we oftentimes grow the most too.

A One of the questions I did want to ask because I feel like both of you are so well spoken in front of crowds and you just admitted that you don't like to speak in public, which I think is a very common fear. How do you prepare?

B Oh, gosh. I still. Well, like I said, I still feel like I am not the most well spoken. So I'm humbled, Humb, to hear you say that. But I think for me, you know, Gilberto mentioned earlier, you know, kind of talking like going through things multiple times. I think, you know, that's. That's what I kind of do too. And just I kind of hyper fixate on the details and try and get myself in a place that I can feel really comfortable speaking in front of crowds.

B So that means kind of over preparing, going through speeches multiple times and just making sure that I feel really confident in what I'm saying. So that way I can, you know, know what the content is like the back of my hand. But one of the things I think Gilberto does really, really well is like having an outline and then just being able to thoughtfully nimbly kind of wing it too. Like, I have not developed that skill. He's amazing at it. I need to be fully scripted and try to wing it a little bit, but I always get so nervous still.

C I will say though, I am very type A, so it sometimes surprises me that I'm able to do it, but I think it's part of, I don't know, it's communication, right? When you're doing that, you want to be able to connect with your audience. And especially in the topic of leadership, for me, when I'm like standing up there talking to others, it's also part of showing them that they don't have to be perfect to be a leader or to be up there. So even if I make a mistake, and this is something I had to learn in terms of like, really make sure that I have present when I'm going on stage because if not, I'm going to be like shivering up there. It's that it's okay if I make a mistake or two. It's a way for me to show someone that you're probably better than me. You could also be up here and doing much better than me. So, like, do it. I want someone else to be in this position as well so that we can keep that connection going.

C And that leadership.

A It sounds like it's just like a mindset shift, Jordan, that you And I have to adopt.

B I guess so. No, I think Gilberto brings up a really wonderful point, though, because, you know, especially with. With the AIs and having our. Our next generation of leaders, I think, you know, showing that human side that you don't have to be perfect to be a leader and showing them that it's. It's okay to make mistakes, I think is a really beautiful thing. I think it's also, you know, I always. I know I say I get nervous, but I always have a ton of fun speaking at our conferences, because I think you'll hear from anyone who goes to an AIs conference that there's so much energy that we bring, too. So trying to find ways to continue to build the culture of the organization and have the energy up on stage, and we always have a ton of fun with it.

B Like you've seen when we do our roll calls and things like that, it's a ton of fun.

A What's interesting to me, Jordan, is that you talk about energy, right? And I also want to bring a lot of energy, but that as an introvert, that takes so much out of me. So how do you guys recover from all of that, too?

B That's. That's a great question. I. I will say that even as. As an introvert, I do, you know, find so much joy from going to events and being around people that have passion for all the things that we're doing. So I. I try and, like, I still kind of need, like, my recharge time, but being around people that really just want to make a difference and really care about the work that they're doing, and I always feel like going to events and things like our conferences always feel like a family reunion. So I do find that that kind of recharges me.

B And, you know, I bring that energy back to. Back to my job and always, you know, that kind of fills up my.

C Cup a little bit more for me. It's definitely just. I need that. But I guess with all of this, I think Jordan makes a really great point. But I'm also thinking about your experience, Evelyn, because it's a very different type of leadership. You're having to be out there for an audience that's a lot more diverse. At least with the AIs, we all have that common ground of being students and having a very similar experience that we're all going through. With you.

C I feel like you have people from all sorts of walks of life with different experiences in different areas of the profession and even outside the profession. How do you typically handle that energy? And that recovery process as well. I'm curious.

A Oh, well. So a few things I was thinking about when you were talking about kind of the mindset that you embrace when you're on stage. And then Jordan saying that, like, I am so horrible. Like, I need to be totally scripted. And I've been saying that, too. But I think, Jordan, you and I need to stop saying, like, that we can't work from an outline because I feel like that's putting a little bit of negativity or, like, I feel like that's inherently subconsciously stopping us from, like, blocking us from potentially being better than we are at that. For me, when it comes to speaking on really, really big stages, doing really long speeches, like, I think the longest one I had to do is eight or 10 minutes right off of a teleprompter. One, we have a teleprompter.

A So I think it's just learning to read from a teleprompter and learning those new skills. Two, I've had to learn to tolerate listening to myself because of the podcast, and it's actually been a really helpful skill when it comes to public speaking. So now if I have a big speech, and I did this as a for instance, like at national conference or at Women's Leadership Summit, I did it for when I was handing over at Ilya's inauguration, when I was kind of closing down my presidency and handing it over to him. I record the speech exactly how I want to say it and deliver it. And I do this at least 24 hours in advance. Conference week. I probably did this a week in advance. And then while I was getting ready when I have free time, I just listened to myself on repeat until it just, like, naturally becomes ingrained.

A And then I can begin to focus on other things, like what are your hands supposed to be doing when you're just standing there in the middle of the day stage? So things like that have helped me build my confidence. We have a hundred thousand, over a hundred thousand members in the aia. I think the reality is, and people often say this, you're never going to please everyone. But I also am very open and transparent about the fact that as a leader, I've had my mind change, and I'm open to dialogue of change as long as we are both, like, comfortable with how that dialogue is going, like, the constraints that that dialogue is in. I'm not going to dialogue with somebody that's like, shouting their opinions at me. But if you want to sit down and have a conversation about why you think things are the way you are and why I think things are the way we are and just like, like actually listen to one another. My mind has been changed and I think that's, that's important and I think my, that that changes for any number of things. There's things in the world that change that may shift your opinions.

A Growing up changes and shifts your opinions. So really hobo for me, it's just I'm always open to the conversation of bridging those different demographics and understanding where people are coming from and just having a natural desire or empathy towards their situation that could be very different from yours. That led them to different experiences, that led them to different outcomes. I feel like in general most people just want to feel listened to. Even if in the end you find that you don't agree, at least you've taken the chance and you've given them the opportunity to have a voice.

C Absolutely. I mean that has been my experience in a couple of the spaces that I've been in. How do you navigate that tension though? Because I feel like oftentimes when you go into spaces that have these different perspectives as a leader, you have to do that bridging very proactively, even if you're just listening to them. There's also a bit of an action expected to follow up that listening process. So how do you bridge that dissonance between tradition and innovation? Especially when there are some structures that have a lot of legacy to them and that people value a lot?

A One, I think you have to acknowledge that things don't change overnight. So even though the tension exists in the moment, that also probably means it's going to be one of many conversations and you're not going to solve, you're not going to solve it in that moment. Sometimes you do get the end and you just have to agree to disagree. What I found is that when you step away from the tension of that conversation and you find other ways to continue to interact with that individual. Whether it's like, hey, I was thinking about the conversation we had. I saw, I was reading this article, would love to get your perspective on it and the article might be about the future of the profession or how things need to change or if you're looking at again, hilberto, your question about legacy versus the need for innovation, say like, oh hey, I found this article from Wall Street Journal, New York Times, a very reputable source talking about all of the VC or private equity funding that's really pouring into the AUC industry. What does somebody from your perspective think about these type of things. And then it opens up another way to talk about the same dialogue without maybe the head to head tension that was bringing the conversation to a certain intensity at that moment in time.

A But I've been involved in the AIA for two decades now and I didn't figure out my voice until at least 10 years, in my opinion. And the things that I really want to talk about, like changing business models until 10 years into those two decades. And I'm still talking about the need for innovation and practice and change in the profession. So I think it's also just a matter of patience, if that's what you really believe in.

B I think also to build off of that too. Just recognizing that change is really hard and people react to it differently. And people are going to have different perspectives that are going to be shaping how they're reacting to or whether or not they're accepting change or not. But like you said, just having empathy and recognizing that people are going to have different perspectives and being willing to have a conversation, whether that having a disagreement within an organization or within a firm context, I think having those difficult conversations can lead to much better outcomes. And having those diverse perspectives can always, always really kind of shape and lead to greater product, whether that be within a board discussion or within a project. Having disagreement there oftentimes can be a lot of good that comes out of that in the end. Once you find a common ground.

A Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I learned at a younger age that having those type of conversations were actually really helpful to the broader picture because I feel like I was somebody that stayed away from those type of conversations. But really I would have gotten so much further faster in my career if I were willing to have more difficult conversations earlier on.

B Honestly, that's one thing I will say. I'm tremendously grateful to my time in organizations like the AIs and AIA that I was definitely someone who was very conflict diverse prior to being involved in organizational leadership. And when you are a leader, you are the person who has to have difficult conversations oftentimes whether you want to or not, and you have to do it for. For the sake of organization or if you're a firm leader, same thing. You have to have those difficult conversations and learning how to do that. I feel very lucky that I'm not saying I'm good at it and I'm not saying I particularly enjoy it a ton quite yet. But just being able to learn how to have those conversations I think is definitely. It's a learning curve for sure, but it's something that can lead to having a positive outcome.

A Plus, I'm a person that tends to build up worst case scenario in my head, right? And I don't know how many times I've walked into those conversations and I'm like, oh, that wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be like on the back end. I think that's a lesson that I need to teach my daughter more of too, because she just builds it up so much in her head that it immobilizes her. And I think that's, that's when it becomes really, really difficult then to even want to have the conversation in the first place. I have a question for the two of you because there's a lot around Gen Z and the characteristics and generalizations of people graduating into the profession now. I hear a lot of people saying, oh, they're coming out and they're asking for six figure starting salaries. Oh, they're coming out and they want, they want to live their life outside of the office. We have to be very careful about how we talk about work life balance here. What do students really want out of a first time employee experience? Where do they find high on the value level? And what type of things do you hear just generally being tossed around about students coming out that are really unfounded rumors that leaders are just kind of saying about this next generation of students?

C I think really it's what every generation has wanted upon graduation, just like a livable wage and perhaps the ability to have a life in parallel to professional development. I think everyone that we've met in the AIs at least has that desire to do something with their passion, with the skills that they have been developing and they really want to be able to have an impact on their communities, on the profession at large perhaps. And I think that's a very important element. I think there is also this recognition that those opportunities don't come right away. You kind of have to grow into them. However, there's also the desire to be able to spend time with your loved ones, with family, with friends. What I will say is, I think what makes it different or what shifts the conversation around those needs is that there are some new challenges, new circumstances that affect how we're seeing things. Right? We're talking about emerging technologies, about the current landscape for our society in general.

C I think that definitely affects how things are being perceived perhaps a little bit more dialing it up, making it a little more intense than it is. But I think that's also important to recognize that these new generations, all of us, the Challenges that may seem like something new for people that are well rooted in their practice and in their profession. For us, it's something that we're growing up with, something that it's already baked into the DNA of what we're looking for within the profession and that we're also trying to navigate at the same time. So it's kind of this position of looking at the new things that are new, but also not so new, if.

B That makes sense to build off of that, I would say too. I mean, you have to recognize that a lot of the people who are graduating were in graduating during the pandemic. You know, like that's a lot of the. We went through the pandemic and that introduces a different lifestyle. Going to school during the pandemic and doing all of your work online and being in a really, really different world, that definitely shapes your perspective and how you're learning. And I think that also has made this generation incredibly resilient in different ways. Gen Z, we have learned how to work remotely and I think that's something that might be a new proposition or new norm for a lot of firms. And I've seen how many firms are adopting that.

B My firm at gbpn, we have a hybrid work schedule as well. And I think that's something that a lot of young people are really looking to have more of that flexibility. But like Huberto said, you know, a lot of the things that many other generations have really been aspiring for, but Gen Z, we tend to be more vocal about it. I would say, you know, and not just saying, hey, I'm going to take a job where I'm going to not make a whole lot of money, but I'm going to be working an 80 hour work week. No, I trying to really go against that and say this is acknowledging that that's not sustainable. And wanting to combat those kind of traditionalist ideals is something that Gen Z, I think is definitely more vocal about. But I wouldn't say that it's a bad thing. I'd say also from like Gilberto was saying, wanting to do work that really is impactful, especially for students who are involved in organizational leadership like AIs or nomas.

B Being a part of something like that, where you are able to contribute to having, you know, having an impact, wanting to be able to continue that in the workplace is something that a lot of our, a lot of our members really want to do as well. And also looking at things like equity, how can we further promote that and how can we, especially right now, continue to have an impact for me when I was, when I was looking for a job coming out of AIs, especially being in a leadership position, I really wanted to find a place that I felt like I was going to be supported and would allow me to continue growing in that way. So I had heard about GBBN prior to graduating from grad school, when I met former YAF chair who's at GBBN and really saw it as a place that I could learn and grow. And also that would be supporting my leadership experience outside of the office. And really and truly that's, that's. I feel incredibly lucky that that is exactly how it's been. And GBPN very much puts people first in all of the work that they're doing and also the work that, you know, supporting people in the office and in leadership experience as well.

A So I want to piggyback a little bit off of that because this is a question that I get a lot too. I would be interested in hearing your responses to the question, but there's, there's always been this tension, right, between what people are taught in school and the realities of what you have to do in practice. Right? The joke that everyone's being taught to become a starchitect in school, but then you go in and do bathroom details your first year of practice. So one, how do we manage those expectations? And how do you talk to students about the transition from school life to professional life and what they hope to get out of their first few years of practice? In addition to kind of all the things you just said around work life balance and being paid a livable wage, I think they're just like the actualities of what the day to day looks like in practice.

B Well, a big part of that to start is just recognizing, and this is something that I feel like I'm still grappling with, but just knowing that you're not going to know everything going into the practice. And there's so, so, so much to learn. And even if you do end up in a position where you're doing a lot more of like drafting bathroom details or whatever it may be just recognizing that, trying to find the positive in all of it and recognizing that you can take something, something away from any experience and you don't have to have your perfect job coming out of school, it doesn't have to be exactly what you are looking for. And you never know, you could learn something from that experience that might shift what you're actually looking at. And even if you have a position that you just learn what you don't like that can also be incredibly helpful in shaping where you end up in the future. And similar to leadership journeys, same thing with your all around in your career. It doesn't have to be a straight line. Recognizing that you can take different turns and having a job that feels fulfilling, I think is super important and you can find fulfillment in different ways.

B And I'd also say just being really vocal when you enter your first position and not being afraid to advocate for yourself a lot of the time if you don't have a firm that has a mentorship program or trying to find a firm that has a mentorship program and a really, really good culture is crucial. But just being super vocal about what you're interested in telling your project managers and people at your firm, or if you're not at a firm even. But just making sure that you're vocal about that is super important. But really trying to find a firm that has a super positive culture is I think is very important as well.

C I think you make a great point, Jordan, that it's not a straight line. Because for me, I feel like when we're in school you're taught only about one end goal, which is kind of like the very traditional architecture career path, which isn't necessarily the experience for everyone. And I would be curious to see some data on how many people that graduate architecture school end up going through that compared to the people that don't and have a perhaps bit more experimental or non traditional experience after graduation. But back to your point, I think mentorship is great in that because it allows you to understand that, yes, while you may graduate and go on to find these other positions, going from like doing the detailed work and not being this architect, it also allows you to understand the journeys of the people that have ended up in that position that you perhaps look up to, and that it most likely was not a straight line. They probably had all sorts of side jobs, side gigs, experiences that shaped who they are as leaders. That's something that I've learned that perhaps someone wasn't necessarily always in that straight line to becoming a principal at a firm. Maybe they were out of the profession for a few years and then came back. And those experiences can be just as valuable.

C And that is kind of the other thing that I think about. This related to your question, Evelyn, that for me, one of the things that I have a lot of thoughts on is that I feel like sometimes architecture is in its own bubble and we need to burst it. Because that is, I mean personally, we were talking before we started reporting about how I started taking on some clients and I've been working with them. It's always so different doing that to the process of being in studio. Right There is this push and pull and this, I don't know, just managing the relationship with your clients is completely different than something that you're not really taught in traditional education. But it also relates to how you're working with other people that are not in this architecture career path, that the architect is not the starchitect. And just understanding that while architecture is perfectly positioned for leadership perhaps, at least that's an argument that I've heard a lot lately. It doesn't mean that we have to do everything by ourselves as architects and maybe we need to learn to collaborate with other professions, with other communities so that we can achieve that common good that we all care about.

C And I'm bringing this up because, I mean, we've talked about sort of like the fear of climate change and how that's affecting our education, right? So even when we have these major topics in mind, we're not going to be able to solve them. Just as architects and within our own profession, we need to reach out. And I think teaching us to reach out is one of the best ways to bridge that gap between education and the profession.

A It's interesting to hear both with everything that you're saying. I think some of my listeners are going to be like, oh man, there's so many demands coming from, coming from these students now. But to that point I would say, yeah, but listen to those demands. When I was running a studio at MK Think we had and we have a, like a summer intern process. We honestly end up hiring a lot of people who'd just graduated rather than people that are like looking. It's a mix of people looking to go back to school, but like also leveraging what could be like a 90 day internship as something that you grow into a full time position. And we were looking for that opportunity and we brought on this individual who I did not originally get along with. And I was kind of so annoyed about all the questions that they were asking about how we did things.

A And I was like, dude, we just need to get this over the finish line. Like, I can't. This is how we do it. We don't have time to ask these questions. We don't have time to change our processes. Like, let's just get it over the finish line. And man, this person was so annoying to me in the beginning, but I finally started to listen to them and it changed so much of What I did and how I approach things and honestly, how we delivered a better product in the end. And that individual ended up following me mostly because I wanted them to three other companies in the process.

A So I think I would hope that anyone listening to the conversation that is in a leadership position that's just like, oh, there's all these demands coming out of the next generation. I hope that they just take the time to listen to what those demands are and also for me to just push out the gentle reminder that architecture was always based on this apprenticeship model. And I think no one truly is a successful learner when we throw them into the deep end. And I don't know how many leaders I've heard say that. That's kind of the first experience that they give students coming out of school, right? Just you constantly talk about the fire hose of information and throwing them into the deep end and seeing if they can swim. And I guess my question, not for you, but at least the question that I would ask from leaders is like, is, are you truly setting them up for success in your firm by doing that? And is there a way to set them up for success sooner, faster, quicker, if you actually had some type of program in place, even if that meant you need to take the time to deliver upon what that program might be.

C So as you that I'm kind of thinking back to one of the things we were talking about earlier and it's sort of those lessons about leadership. So I'm kind of thinking for you, what would be that some of those lessons that you think would be important to share from a leader that's training the next generation?

A I think it goes back to even the first question that we were talking about. I think it talks about empathy and understanding where they come from. Jordan, it never really occurred to me that everybody graduating now has went through their formidable years during the pandemic. It's so obvious. Yet I feel like I needed to hear somebody say that to me to remind me this is where that's the experience that a lot of students coming out of school have had to grow up with. And like, that's the experience that I had. I mean, I was in it too. I was just like, I just never thought how that changes perspective.

A So I think having a lot of empathy around that. I think empathy goes both ways though too. You guys are armed with a lot more technology able skills than I ever had coming out of school. And there's leaders out there who know we need to do more with AI, but they don't know how to do more with AI. And I think there's leaders out there that know we need to do more with technology. But then they're like, they think about all of the years of training that it took for them to get the knowledge they need to make decisions about things that you guys are inevitably like dis. Plopping down already in your buildings. And I think, I don't know, but it was just like we need to be more human and empathetic towards one another to understand, to bridge that gap, honestly.

A And so much of what I do about needing new business models in the profession is because quite frankly, we don't have the time to do any of these more human things. Right. If you are running on a profit margin that requires everybody in the firm to be 85% billable, like all the time, then we have no room to learn and we have no room for professional development and we have no room to just have the conversations that can move things along, like going slow to go fast type of thing. And for me, that's why it always comes back to, to the business model. How do we create a business model that enables us to do more of these things that we want to do? An easy for instance of that is I know plenty of firm leaders out there that would love to give parental leave after a new addition to a family, whether it's through birth or adoption, for six months to a year after that occurrence. But we don't have the business structure to support that individual for that long. There's great leaders that can only do what they can do given with what they have within their means. And for me, that's why I feel that if we can figure out a new business model, then we can actually create meaningful change in the profession.

A But if we are constantly running on a very small margins, then it makes room for change and for all of this to happen that much harder.

B One thing I will say about, I know just talked about the next generation and you know how we, a lot of us were coming out of the pandemic when we're in school. And I will say one thing that gives me a lot of hope is the creativity that comes from this generation. We're in the age of AI and social media and just a constant overwhelming amount of information that we're receiving. But I do think that that makes Gen Z and next generations after in a lot of ways make us even more creative thinkers. And also when you're talking about things like rethinking business models and looking at time and efficiency, while you know that's that's one thing that we can be more efficient. We do have the bandwidth to step it up in that way and think about things in a different light. And I would challenge firm leaders to embrace that and say, like, how can I bring young people in and what are some ways that I can creatively, like how can we give them agency and really look at using their skills in a way that's really positive? And I'd say that that's one thing that I think is really unique about this generation. And as we're thinking about rethinking the way that we work and looking at the future of the profession, I do really, Gen Z, I think that we, we've got it and we can really bring that, that different creative mindset and thinking and that's something that maybe we haven't seen from, from generations previously.

B So I would, yeah, definitely, like, I would say, you know, still push. I think that there has to be, you know, conversations about how that happens. But I would challenge from leaders to, to embrace that.

A Absolutely. Given your experience and looking at the current state of the profession, what is your hope for the future of the profession that maybe those five or ten years after you would graduate into, like, if you could change some of the big things that makes it better for the generation behind you, what are the big touch points that you would hope to change?

B I think there's quite a few. The profession, I think that's something that's very exciting about it though, is the ways that it is changing and can change for the better. And I love what Gilberto said earlier about how architecture is a bubble that needs to burst. And one of the ways that I do see it changing and hope that it continues to evolve as we're in this, I really feel like pivotal moment that we're in for both the profession and the world. But looking at the future being interdisciplinary and finding ways that we can better collaborate to address greater issues like climate change and equity and see how we can take some lessons learned from other professions and collaborate to see how we can really advance as designers, as leaders, as architects in all adjacent fields, what are some ways that we can start to collaborate more and really have that more of a synergy? I'd also say with AI and with everything that's headed the way that it's headed and how AI can do a lot of the nitty gritty day to day, like doing red lights and things like that, I think that architecture is going to start to look more at us being system thinkers and problem solvers. Rather than doing a lot of the very standardized, detail oriented work, which, which, you know, I think a lot of AI can probably already is doing that and we're going to start to see a mindset shift there. But I would also say, you know, of course, looking at representation in the profession too, that's, that's one thing that I know we've started to see a lot of change in that right now and we've had a lot more women and people of color in the profession. I really hope that we continue to see that.

B And I think that is one thing that we're going to see more of. Hopefully. That's, that's another thing I think equity systems thinkers and interdisciplinary.

C I completely agree. I could also come up with other 10 different items to add to the list, but I think if I had to sum it up in one statement, it would be that I hope that the profession becomes a little more human. It's something that we've been mentioning throughout this conversation and as one of the great qualities for leaders. Right. And I think that's also something the profession needs to embrace a little bit more, that architecture needs to embrace a little bit more. And I think the conversations have already been opened. There's already so many exciting initiatives out there on community design, on how we're collaborating with others and bringing them into the profession to shape what we do and to make it more effective and efficient. I just think, think it needs to settle and I really hope to see that.

C I think the future of architecture is a little more human and I'm excited to see what that looks like in practice.

B I'd be really curious to hear about what your hope is for the profession.

A Evelyn I think it's a yes and to what you're saying. For as much as the term architect, I think is revered and valued in society, I think the true impact of what our profession does more broadly does not hold up to the prestige of the title. And I would love in the future for more people to understand what that is, which I think some people would be confused by because I'm an architect operating at the fringe that doesn't do traditional practice. But I've also argued that in order for us to be perceived that way, we need to think beyond buildings. Jordan we're talking about systems and then I think we ultimately get to build more of the buildings that we want to build if we're a part of those broader conversations and to see that value returned in a way that is, enables us to do all the things that we want truly truly want to do when it comes to delivering upon work life balance. And I would hope that architecture and architects, I feel, view themselves so much as artists and not to say that I want that artistry to ever be lost. But a practice is a business first. And in order for us to practice, we need to have a business so that you know that every architecture firm at least is making the revenue to.

A I don't know. I have a goal for myself to take one week off every quarter. And I think, and I honestly don't think that's that generous. Right. But I would love for everyone to be able to say that about what it means to practice in architecture, but essentially to be able to do what we love in practice, to be able to deliver the buildings we want to our community to society and to have that impact and for our value to be seen in a way that we get paid for the value that we're delivering, which I don't honestly think is going to happen in the next five to 10 years, but if we don't start working on it now, it also never will happen. Hi Disruptors, thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community.

A Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.