Immigrant Architects

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph, Twinmotion and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're collaborating on curated conversations to

A explore how the industry is changing. Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, disruptors. This week's episode, we are bringing together individuals who have

A not always called the US home. Not only have they not always called the US home, but they are also making it easier for other immigrants to find their way in the architecture profession in the states by creating the resources they wish they had through their own journey.

B This episode is a continuation of our diversity programming that we've been developing since season 1. And so we've continued to try to find new ways to introduce new voices into the dialogue so that we can continue learning about what diversity really entails.

A Similar to all the other episodes that we've designed this way, we usually get a moderator who is a part of the conversation, who can tell their own story to run the discussion. And for this episode, I have invited my good friend, Graciela, who I've met through the AIA, to be that moderator. Originally from Colombia, Graciela Carrillo, AIA lead AP, immigrated to the United States in 2003. She recently joined NASA BOCES

B Facility Services as a senior manager where she is managing school operational and capital projects. Graciela has committed a decade of volunteer leadership service to the AIA. Currently, she is serving as the president of AIA Long Island as well as the chapter's women in architecture cofounder and cochair 2017, 2018 AIA New York regional director for the Young Architect Forum. She is also the cofounder of the Immigrant Architects Coalition, a group committed to helping and providing resources for immigrant architects to achieve a prosperous career in the United States. In 2019, Gracielo was the recipient of the AIA New York State Young Architects Award.

A Gloria Klauder, AIA, NCARB, c o d I a, is founder and CEO of Glow Architects, A practicing architect both in her home country of the Dominican Republic and the US, she has dedicated her career to helping young architects grow. She is founder of the foreign architects, a private community in Facebook where she mentors young and aspiring immigrant architects on how to obtain their architectural license in the United States. Gloria also serves as the architect licensing adviser of the State of Florida through AIA Florida. She is part of the board of directors of the AIA Tampa Bay where she is a chairperson of the women in architecture committee. She is also honored for the 2019 Xiaoping Ching Women's Leadership Summit Scholarship, a recognition to mid career women architects who are advancing towards leadership roles and are making a positive impact within their communities.

B Shahad Sadegh, associate AIA, is an Iraqi immigrant and architectural designer at SmithGroup. She is an active member of the AIA in her local chapter in Dallas, Texas. Shahad is passionate about amplifying diverse voices in the profession and developing sustainable workplace culture. She currently is coleading the immigrant architect coalition and sits on the JEDI committee board of SmithGroup. She previously helped found an equity and architecture effort through the AIA Kansas City chapter.

A Yunoch Lowe, f a I a c d t, LEAD AP, is a founding principle of YNL Architects Inc. His work received numerous design awards such as the NAHB Best of American Living Awards, Golden Nugget Awards, Aurora Awards, American Residential Design Awards, and various AIA Design Awards. The projects of his firm have been published in Arc Daily, Hinge Magazine, Conde, Comarc Magazine, and Hospitality Interiors Magazine. UNOC is a past recipient of the AIBD Designer of the Year, an AIA presidential citation, an AIA National Young Architects Award, BD plus C 40 under 40, 2015 ENR 20 under 40, and the AIA CA Young Architect Award. He was elevated to the AIA College of Fellows in 20 20. Let's cut to their stories.

C My name is Juwon Lo.

D I own a small architectural practice in Culver City, California. I came to the States when I was 17 years old to pursue a degree in architecture. I have always wanted to be an architect. Lego bricks, perspective drawings, and computer renderings fascinated me since I was a kid. But it was not until my high school years I decided to chase my dreams overseas. I grew up in Macau, a tiny city with strong ties with Hong Kong, because Macau and Hong Kong were both occupied by the Portuguese and the British governments. Many of you might have known Macau as the Las Vegas in Asia nowadays, but it was nothing like that before it returned to China. Back in the days, you see many Europeans hold major political positions in Macau.

D In a typical large company, you can see Chinese worker working at lower to mid level positions, while all of the management positions were filled by white Europeans or even Americans. No one ever questioned this organizational structure. Equity was not a thing in Asia, and no one talks about it. I believe, subconsciously, I always thought that white people are are smarter. After all, Macau and Hong Kong were under Europeans' control, and I always wanted to be successful. I always wanted to become one of them. That is when I start thinking about studying overseas. There were college fairs in Macau from time to time when colleges and universities from abroad come and recruit international students.

D 1 of the college representatives would start talking about how great US is. It is the most advanced country in the world, which is true. But most importantly, it is a great giant melting pot where everyone with different backgrounds live peacefully together. Everyone's opinion is valued, and we do not discriminate against each other. It is a land of opportunities. I questioned this a bit at first, but I told myself that it could very well be true. You see on TV all the time, when a bunch of white people cheering for these all black basketball teams, they truly don't discriminate each other. And I always fantasize how successful I would become after I obtained my architect license here in the US.

D Of course, it is simply not true. I studied architecture in Iowa State for almost 4 years. I remember one of my professors would make fun of my accent in front of the class. I remember one of my classmates told me to go back home after 9 one one happened. He said I don't belong here. I remember no one wants to team up with me for group projects. There were times when I wanted to just pack my stuff and go home, even though I tried so hard to be one of them. But eventually, I come to realize that I cannot simply hide from who I am.

D If I could take a time travel and redo this all over again, I wish I could have managed my expectations a little bit better, and not to believe all the false information that I was given to. I always wish I was better prepared in terms of developing my speaking and language skills. But I don't mean to sound like my experience here in the US is nothing but awfulness. I never regretted coming here to the States. I met many great peoples, including white peoples, of course, over the years and received a lot of helps. And quite frankly, I don't think I would ever have the courage to start my own firm if I had not endured what I encountered during my college years.

E My name is Gloria Clotter. I am an architect originally from the Dominican Republic, and now I am a licensed architect in Florida. I used to have my architectural firm back in the Dominican Republic, which I started in 2009 until I came to live to the United States in 2015. I recently opened my firm, GLOW Architects, in Florida in 2020. When I was back in the Dominican Republic, one of the main things that I experienced was that I was not only able to design my projects as any other architect will do, but I also had the freedom to work as the GC and get involved with the site and make decisions on the construction part of most of my projects. This is something that is very common back in the Dominican Republic, especially with 13 levels of projects. I wouldn't do that with a multi level building, but I was able to do it with some of the projects I got to work with. Retail stores, restaurants, and residential projects too.

E When I came to the United States, I wasn't able to just transfer my architecture license and start my business because, obviously, my architecture license was not valid here. So I had to go through the whole process of getting my license transferred to Florida, you know, reporting all the hours, validating my education, and taking the AREs. After I completed my process in 2019, I was able to start my architectural firm here in Florida. And some of the differences I've seen is there's just a lot of liability involved in this country. I am thankful that I was forced to take all the exams and going through the process of having to report hours under a licensed architect here in the United States because even so I had many years of experience on my home country. There's a lot of differences that I just didn't know and didn't understood that I needed to know at the moment when I just arrived to this country. Still, I'm in constant ongoing learning process on how things work in this country, but I feel way better prepared after going through those years from 2015 until 2020 that I was working for another firm and just taking the exams and kind of understanding how everything works. Everything is just very different to what I was used to back in the Dominican Republic.

E I feel that I have a lot more freedom, but a lot less of liability back in my home country as an architect. Here, there's just a lot of scenes that works different. Being familiar with building codes, for example, was a big deal because we have building codes back in the Dominican Republic, but they just don't compare to how complicated things are here.

F My name is Graciela Carrillo. I come from Bogota, Colombia. And like a lot of immigrants in this country, I moved to Long Island, New York to start a new life and to continue my education. In Colombia, I went to architectural school. Then I worked for 6 years as an architect until working for the government, something really bad happened. My boss or supervisor at that time, unfortunately, got killed. So safety of the people that worked directly for that person was in jeopardy so I decided I needed to leave the country and start a new life. So I applied for a few jobs here in New York, and I moved in 2003 to Long Island.

F And when I moved here, I realized that even though I was an architect from another country, my education was quite different from the architectural education that you have here. So I realized I needed to learn a lot in order for me to feel that I could perform well in a job. First, I needed to change my thinking about the unit system, the metric system. I needed to learn about the building codes here. I needed to learn about MEP systems here. It was a lot of different areas that I definitely didn't feel comfortable. So since the beginning, I always knew that I needed to enroll into more schooling and that I needed to learn by myself, everything that I thought I was lacking. I went to Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, New York for a master's, and I learned a lot about different areas and how people communicate.

F It's a different environment than working in a firm, so it definitely helped in adapting into the culture. And then after that, I got also LEED accredited and I also did a certification as a building code enforcement official. So I think that I never really stopped getting educated. I think this is something that I will continue because it definitely helps for an immigrant to feel like if we are more educated, we can be more competitive and coming from another country with a degree, from a university that nobody knows here, I think that's something that is not very helpful. So that's why I basically dedicated the first, I would say maybe 7, 8 years as just starting to be more competitive and also to achieve my licensure, which I finally was able to get my license a few years ago.

G My name is Shahad Sadegh. I am originally from Iraq, but I was born and raised in Abu Dhabi. In the Middle East, in some countries, you don't get the citizenship by being born there. It has a much more complicated avenue than that. So, during the time I grew up in Abu Dhabi, there was virtually no real way to become a citizen. So, we remained Iraqi. While growing up in Abu Dhabi, I went to British private school and always thought that I was gonna go to the west for my higher education. So I ended up coming to the United States of America.

G I went specifically to Springfield, Missouri, Drew University and I wasn't sure what I wanted to study. While others had something they loved, I always felt like I didn't have something that called me directly. I had, like, almost many things that called to me. And so it's very difficult to choose. But because of that, I went and had a conversation with the dean and found out that architecture is probably the best way to develop critical thinking. And for the most part in my life, I've been studying, a lot of in the box kind of subjects like mathematics, physics, chemistry, and so on. So to have access to critical thinking, I thought I will follow-up with architecture. Because I was an Iraqi citizen and there was the Arab Spring in the Middle East, I applied for asylum because there's a lot of complicated past with my family in the Middle East.

G So I'm an asylum seeker and that's how I started my career in America, through asylum seeker, not through f one status. My work permit is based on my case, which is still being adjudicated, with USCIS. So I started my career in Kansas City, Missouri. I worked for a small firm, and there's when I realized that mentorship was not something that they valued. And so I only realized that by joining AIA Kansas City and talking to my peers, and I created my own benchmarks of development and growth, and I realized that I was falling way behind. And And so I thought mentorship was gonna be my goal to develop for other people, for people like me, especially for international, international architects or immigrant architects that don't know or don't have the ability to create those benchmarks just because they don't have access to those relationships or maybe their AIA isn't as has a strong membership as Kansas City did. And so that's where I, found my path to leadership and found avenues for developing soft skills. And I think it's a very valuable space for a lot of emerging professionals to learn.

G I think it'll be a good safe place for you to make mistakes and learn from really experienced people and also create relationships in competing firms. I would say the safest trajectory for immigrant architects is, to try to find a place that does mentor. I think that's your number one goal. And then try to find a place that will give you sponsorship. I know many of us wanna stay in America and sponsorship is important, but I think your career is really hinged on a healthy mentorship environment because you have now with the STEM extensions, you have 3 years. So first, look for mentorship, and then look for sponsorship.

H Shahad, Sadeq, I I have a couple of questions for you. I see that you have a huge network and I would like to know more about that. How were you able to to build and establish your network? That's 1. And the second question that I have, you mentioned mentorship and that's I think something very important that firms can take a look at and can maybe include into their policies and practices. So I would like to hear your experience on on both areas, Your network, how you created that, and also the mentoring part.

I Yeah. I'll start with a network conversation because that's how it led to mentorship. Focus on mentorship. So I came to Kansas City, Missouri with no connections and no knowledge for the industry. And it really just started at AIA Kansas City. I made a connection with a friend and with somebody there, and we had a commonality. And we were interested in the same thing, and we just ended up talking. And, I mean, I was fortunate with her because she was on the AI board, but it doesn't matter.

I Right? It doesn't matter how connected she is. It what matters was finding somebody you are connected with. And in that way, I have built a I started by building this first relationship with someone from Kansas City who went to school in Missouri, who, you know, have lived in Kansas City for a long time. And so that was kind of the foot in the door. And, being involved in a committee, leading a committee, it's kinda scary. Right? You're going in. You don't know anyone in the industry. You don't know anyone in the city, and you're, like, I'm just gonna lead this committee.

I But because it's not just me alone, it was me and her together. She had all the connections as well. So you don't have to have someone who's deeply connected to help you connect. Honestly, it could just but she was deeply connected, so that helped me understand how to form those relationships. However, that said, I ended up developing my own developing my own relationships by by just leading a committee. Not saying that as an international student, just walk in and lead a committee because that's intimidating, but be part of a committee. Be part of something you're passionate about, and just talk to people and start connecting with people. I mean, friends of friends of friends of friends.

I Right? And that's how it kinda, like, accelerated really quickly. And, everyone wanted to have a conversation about equity and architecture. So I just kind of, like, I was on the pulse. Right? Like, that's how my network got much bigger or faster because it was something that was of interest, in the industry. And so, like, we're able a a lot of people were opening their doors to us, and so there were so many conversations happening that way. And AIA Kansas City was instrumental in pushing forward the equity conversation, so they may they helped us made these connection. I mean, I made a connection with you through you've not through, AIA. Right? Like, he had sent an email asking for people, and they gave him my name.

I So, it was just such a hot topic that it was easy to make a connection. And because we were we're all in this experimental universe called equity, all of us are, like, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? So, like, everyone's just naturally drawn to talking to each other, because we were just, like, man, like, there's no precedent for this. Right? So, like, let's let's have a discussion. Let's find out what lessons learned you had, and I mean, it was just so perfect, right, when George Floyd happened. We call it the George Floyd happening. But when, you know, when George Floyd, this is such a devastating story. Right? Like but it but it mobilized so many companies, and they the company started looking for people. And because this network of equity people were already preconnected, it was just so easy to, you know, mobilize people and start kicking into gear.

I And not to say that it was easy. Right? We had to learn a lot of things. We had to shift our focus. I had to learn to shift my focus because my focus was workplace sustainability, which really focused on mentorship. And that's what Graciela is asking about. I from my own experience of not having the right mentor, not having, that are the right opportunities to develop in the office, I sought for, you know, what what are other people doing. Like, I I kinda wanted to build benchmarks from other people and, to see, like, where are you at at this level and where should I have been, you know, what I should have been doing. So that was my focus for the equity portion.

I Right? And and for the for the 3 years in the equity sphere, I was focused on how do we develop potential. How do we develop people's potential? It was less focused on the race issue and the diversity issue as much. And but it was tremendously helpful because it's again, it's, you know, how do you help people reach their full potential? And that is, like, understanding their pinch points and understanding how to, like, overcome these obstacles and be able to support them. And so when the conversation about diversity and, you know, how do we support people with minority backgrounds and with, or international students and so on, it's all the same. Right? It's all the same mechanism of how do you spot the pinch points, and how do you develop a program around it? How do you make sure you help them reach their full potential? So that's where our mentorship kinda came about. And, also, like, because of the search for mentorship, there was a concerted effort for us to, talk to firms about what their mentorship programs were. So we were able to accumulate, like, you know, how are you mentoring? What are you teaching? And so understanding the different ways firms were mentoring helped us see, you know, what our program. But in the end, actually, Graciela was instrumental in New York for developing, like, a an award, or is it a certification for for school for firms if they are

H really good? Emerging professionals.

I Yeah. Exactly.

H Thank you so much. I love that. I love I I every time I talk to you I learn more about your story. And now I would like to introduce Gloria Clotter. Gloria, I would like you to share that experience that you have retaining jobs. Like how was at the beginning you just coming here trying to open, you know, opportunities for you? How was that experience and what challenges did you have to go through?

E Getting my first job here, which really I only had one job before opening my firm. But I struggle to get that one job because I, when I came and as I explained, thinking that I could just open my firm and I called in, then I realized pretty quickly, well, I need to get a job because I needed to start making money and pay bills. And, it was hard for me because the lack of knowledge in certain systems in general really affected me. And and this is more related to the immigration part. But when I came with my husband, I thought I was gonna be able to start working right away no matter what. And that didn't apply either. That didn't happen either because I came with a tourist visa, and I needed to switch to the green card visa. And the green card process alone was longer than I expected.

E I spent a lot of months just waiting for it without having the right to work, making any money. So that affected our finances. And then when I finally got, the green card visa and I was able to start working, then I realized that my architectural license was not valid. And then then it was about getting a job. Well, that whole experience was a nightmare in a way because I didn't have a resume ready. Let's start with that because I didn't came thinking I was gonna have to get a job. I was just gonna start my firm. So I had my resume and my portfolio was pretty outdated, and it was all in Spanish, which is which is my native language.

E And, it was just really hard for me to translate because even I will ask my husband, which, you know, he's American. He was born and raised here in, Florida. And I will ask him, like, how do you translate this word? Or, like, what is the proper way this, again, going back to that technicality? And he was like, I've never heard of this scene. Like, I I don't know what you're talking about. Parapid? What's that? Like, I don't know what we're talking about. So I think it was hard for me first, understanding how to translate my portfolio and my, my resume. But then I applied to several jobs, and I was not getting, the jobs that I was applying for. And I feel that, you know how they said that sometimes we women can be like, we feel that we need to check all the all the, boxes to feel that we are, capable of taking on to that one job.

E I keep hearing that kind of same example. I think I'm one of those. I actually identify myself like that. I feel like if I'm missing one box, I might not be able to, you know, to, take into this job. I shouldn't apply it. So every time I actually applied to a job, I always felt that I was capable of taking into the job, and then I was not getting it. So long story short, what happened was that there was this one specific job that I really from all the ones that applied, this one I really, really wanted, and I didn't get it. So I took took hard and said, I'm gonna reach out back to them and ask them, what is it? What can I improve? What, you know, what is it that I'm missing if they can give me some feedback of what I can improve on my the way that I'm presenting my portfolio or what is it that I'm missing.

E And they said that the reason why they selected this other candidate was because my portfolio and resume was not really clear to them. They were not really fully understanding my level of experience, what my previous positions in other jobs and even in my previous company that I own. What what was it? What was my role and what those roles meant? What were my responsibilities within those roles and within every project I presented in my portfolio? What what is the specifics that I did? Because, again, to me, back in the yard, I will say, oh, I am an architect, and I was the architect of this project and the GC, and I build it. And it's like they're like, what what are you talking about? Like, I don't I don't understand that. And and the fact that I will say I was the architect to them meant not much either because it's like, what? You were the the project architect? Did you project manage it? Or did you work in this part of the production and you did the life safety, but someone else did this older part? Like, who did the details and who did the schematic design of it? Did you do everything or you did a part of it? And I don't think I understood that when I came to this country. I don't think, until especially until I started working in my previous job that I saw how much, you can get segregated into your functions. Because back in the Doctor, I could get a project and do it from start to finish on my own. And to me, the fact that I will set in my portfolio I was the architect meant that I was taking on to all of that, but that wasn't really clear to them.

E So I learned after that. They gave me a lot of feedback on you know, if you specify here what you did and this and that and dada. So I went back. I reframe everything. Really were more meticulous into what everything meant and what I did for every project and what I did for every position that I had in the past. And immediately I did that is when I got a pretty straightforward offer in the previous job I had for 4 years. Even so, again, I didn't know Revit, and I admitted to them, I don't know building codes, but I want to learn. I don't know Revit, but I want to learn.

E But this is what I bring to the table, and this is the experience I have. And I think once again, that is important for every company in general that is hiring someone that is coming from a different country is being open minded on what this person can bring to the table. Because there's a lot of things that are very easy to teach. It's very technical stuff that are you can expose that person for a week or 2, and they will learn pretty easily. But there's things you cannot teach. And the personality, the mentality, the team team player type of mentality, the hardworking weight of being in and just that energy is something that it's something that I feel is should be the focus and also understanding that someone that is coming from a different country that have seen have has been exposed to maybe, more freedom on design because of maybe the building codes there are less stringent. It kinda brings something to the table of maybe challenging. Because sometimes I feel that we're so stringent with certain scenes that the codes and the, the budget limit us all so much when we're in the process of designing a project that we can get contained into this box.

E And I think having someone that is coming with a different perspective can help you and your team refresh the whole process of how to think about this design from the beginning and how to look at it from a different way point of view just because as Graciela is saying, you know, we come from countries that we don't have to deal as much with a HVAC systems because not every project actually has it. Sometimes we barely have a a split unit in some of the projects, and that's it. So it depends. But at the same time, then we have a lot to think of sustainability and cross ventilation. And how do you make this building work whenever there's no energy? Because that happens. That's a reality to us. So if your project is very sustainable, maybe an immigrant is the great is a great person to put their hands on it and help you to see it from their perspective and their own experiences. You know? And just just just a little add to the table on, you know, this is what I live versus what you've lived.

E And and I think that's very important.

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C My name is Yuwok. I came to the state in when I was 17 years old and, studied 2 years of community college in California, and then, eventually graduated my bachelor of architecture in Iowa. So I've been in different parts of the country experiencing different part of the culture. I now am in Culver city, California. I have my small practice. We used to have like, 4 or 5 people, but because of the COVID, we, we downsize it a little bit and then we can talk about, I'll talk about it a little bit. So right after I graduated college, I really want to try to have a career here in us. And, and, and if I have to say, I have to be honest, like it's very hard to get a job.

C I mean, I know that you have to understand like what you're getting into, but I had no choice. I pretty much have to take whatever, offers I had, that, that, that was available to me. And, so I ended up with working for like a small firm in California, and they're really small. They're not really exciting. You know, the stuff that they do are boring, but, you know, once a while, that firm will get a couple of really exciting new projects. But for some reason, I was not on any of these projects. It's always headed by the principal and a couple of white guys, interns, or whatever. You know, I I never I never get work on any of the glamorous project.

C I was stuck on, like, bathroom remodel, window replacements, and and that and that kind of crap. I mean, you call it. But that, that really, really makes me, that kind of give me the motivation that, okay, I need to start my own firm. I need to do my own thing because I want to design. And at a point I miss design so much that I spend a lot of time on my own doing competitions and, entering design award. And, and that's kind of over the time, it is kind of how I develop my portfolio and eventually, get on my own. But, you know, of course, after you, you, you started your own firm, you realize that you, you keep doing like iPhone remodels and window replacement, because it is really hard to get like exciting job as you expect it, but you know, at least you, you get on it on your own. So, I mean, I didn't I don't want to sound like I I was being discriminated against, when I was working for someone because I I don't I don't think so because I I over often reflect upon on it.

C And and I I love my boss. I mean, my first boss, he, he was the one who, sponsored my, green card, you know, like the, the HP, H1 visa. I worked for him for almost 9 years. So I I think he's a he's a nice guy, deep down. But so why why do I always get to work on this stupid projects? And and why why why don't I get the chance? And and I think part of the reason is, my language, and and I think it's very typical for a lot of in implants. And there's no way that I can get rid of my accents even to this day. And I've been here for what? Like, more than 20 years. I still have an accent.

C And and when I first came here, like, people laugh at me. My coworker, always laugh at me. They call me antisocial because during lunchtime, they would sit in the conference room, having lunch, talk about American pop cultures, ball sports, like old movie and all that. I have no idea what, what the heck they were talking about. So I will end up like sitting in my own cubicle, browsing internet and have my lunch. I never go out to buy fast food. I always cope my, my lunch, bring it, heat it up. And that was my routine.

C People say that, why why are you anti social? I mean, but it's because I was afraid to speak. I don't wanna get laugh at. And and that's why that's the real reason why I decided to sit on my own.

H I you mentioned something important you and it was how you were treated as an antisocial because you didn't want to be part of like the culture and the conversation because of the accent and the language barrier and when you said that I felt completely identified to my like first couple of years in this country. People don't believe me when I say that I was super shy, like I didn't want to talk to anybody. My accent was so so heavy even though the first thing that I did here was enrolling to English as a second language classes. I tried to get any book, any TV show, whatever in English. I tried not to even mingle with Spanish people so I could get like people that speak English in my class so I could learn from them. But then when I went to work I didn't want to talk to anybody at the beginning and forget about even going to AI events and seminars and lectures. I would have like anxiety. I don't want anybody to talk to me.

H I will be in a a corner just listening to the lecture but don't talk to me. I don't want to interact. And what I did at that time was of course trying to break that barrier, but believe it or not I was already an architect. I even got my license already and I got a job selling sunglasses while I was doing full time architecture architectural work because that was my way of going out and exposing myself to people that don't know me, don't know my background, they don't know I'm an architect, they don't know I'm from Colombia, and I need to break that ice and go to them and sell glasses. And guess what? I was super successful selling glasses because I broke that barrier and that job allowed me to communicate with people and then of course my leadership path during my AI years that also helped me into breaking that barrier. But it's something that sometimes firms are not very understanding on. Why is that immigrant so you know isolated? Why they don't want to interact? Why they don't want to you know come along? It's just because of that there is a big cultural barrier and language barrier that we have to overcome. And then on top of that you add that you have a personality that is not very social.

H So guess what? It's a completely disaster. But as we as we build our network and as we help each other that's what we're doing with the Immigrants Architects Coalition is to help them overcome all those different barriers not only educational, professional, cultural, all of it. And that is basically what helped me.

E To add to that real quick, just because you really spot something Graciela from what, you were saying. One of the things that affects the most, to immigrants in this part of the language barrier and the struggles that we have with that self consciousness with our essence. And, sometimes people, again, around us, to be honest and and just to to give grace to those around us, most of the time, they don't mean harm. You will find some people that are mean because they're mean. I get it. But a lot of people are not, and they just they just don't understand what what it means and what it feels being in our shoes because they haven't lived that day. Most of the time, they only speak one language, and they can speak it very well. And they don't understand what it how it feels to put yourself out there in trying to speak someone else's language in their territory and with their accent and with, you know, with their customs and stuff.

E It's just hard to for them to identify themselves with it. But I think what I'm trying to say is, one of the things that I've noticed that affects a lot to immigrants architects is that we don't get the opportunities because of that to even being exposed in front of the clients. We don't get the opportunity to be the ones leading those meetings and presenting the projects into the bigger crowd because, there's always that fear that we are not gonna be understood, that the client might be frustrated about not understanding our words. And maybe too, we don't have or we don't project that confidence that sometimes our bosses will like us to have when we're presenting because we we should be, kind of, transmitting that leadership role. Right? And I think, you both brought a very good point into it's okay at some point to let go and understand it. This is my asset, and I need to embrace it. It is what it is. Obviously, trying to improve as much as possible because even if you have an accent, having an accent is one scene, and it's just part of who you are and your roots, and that's good.

E That's something that we need to embrace. But I think it's a part of if if our ASN is making us not not being understood, then it's a problem that we can address. That is very different. Having an and not being understood is 2 different scenes. And I think as Graciela is saying, taking those classes or as you said, like, you know, there's things you can do about it. Taking those, speech, classes that you took help help you to kind of overcome that. And that's totally okay because, yes, we want to be understood, but I think there's a separation. And we need to understand as immigrants what it means being understood and what it means having an.

E It's 2 separate since then we should we should separate them mentally because, it's just it's just different. And it it can make us feel that there's something wrong with us, and it can make us feel limitations within our jobs and kind of hitting that glass ceiling just because I can never be the project architect presenting in front of this group because they will never let me press you know what I'm saying? And that's not fair to us. That's not fair to anybody.

C And I've and I think it's a cultural thing too. You know? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but when I was a kid, I mean, we were taught to be obedient. You know? We always like, we never raise hand and and answer questions and all that. And I think that that kind of mentality is is built into us. But here, I mean, it's it's a very different culture, and and you got to speak up, you know, you got to show yourself. I mean, and as a firm owner, I hate, I hate to say that you have to constantly brag about your work. I mean, that that's just like something that is is a cultural differences, I for the for lack of better word.

H Okay. So you you you talk about, and Gloria too, owning your own firm, like opening your practice. I would like to share my experience. I have not opened a practice in this country, of course. I have worked for firms for the past 17 years but I would like to share a little bit about my experience on how I came here and how how is that process for people that have work visa. So, a little bit related to Shahad going back to the first part of the interview, she came here with asylum visa, a student but then she applied for the asylum. I could have gone the same way because I literally left my country because of safety issues. I was working for the government at that time.

H My boss got killed and of course I was like the second in line so they told me you're gonna have to change your life and I said I don't want to live like this. So I reached out to my brother, he was already here, he's an engineer, so thank God he had contacts. He could open a few interviews for me. I was hired, well I was accepted by a few so I got one. I had to wait in my country for my work visa to come here and once I started here with the work visa it felt like I needed to stay with them for my work visa period and also my green card because ultimately my goal was to go through the work visa and then apply for the green card for the permanent resident so I could stay here. Otherwise, at the end of the work visa I would have to go back to Colombia and I didn't want that. So I went through the 2 work visas. I had to extend the first one, and of course I'm locked into my company.

H Thank God that I was happy. It was a good fit but I have heard from other peers that they talk to me and they are completely miserable. It's not a good fit, it's not a good experience but yet they are stuck in that company because the work visa is in between. And when you have a work visa it's not like oh I don't want this job or it's not a good fit for me, I'm gonna go get another one. No, because you have to do all over again that process and it's not an easy process. The company really wants needs to sponsor you all the way financially with all the paperwork. So it's not it's not an option for us coming with a work visa. So thank god that I didn't have that position but still I felt obligated to stay with the firm for the time of the work visa and also the permanent residence.

H And then once I achieved that I stayed there still because I thought I could learn more. It was the type of work that I liked. It was an engineering firm. I love engineering. I'm an architect engineer person. So it it it worked it worked out good but usually what happens is you get your green card and then you look for opportunities and sort of that happened to me like I got my green card then I got my citizenship because I was not happy with just the green card. I was like they can kick me out at any time so I'm just gonna apply for my citizenship. I did that and once I became a citizen then I was like I felt like I'm free, you know.

H Like after all these years I have my own freedom. I can do whatever I want. I don't owe anything to anybody. So it's basically the experience that any other immigrant would go if they are here with the work visa. You are definitely tied to that company until you achieve permanent permanent status.

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A One of the things that struck me most and and I think with all of these conversations, we inherently know these things, but we don't actually actively think about them until we hear other people have a conversation about them is, you know, the many different paths and and what that entails for immigrants to come to the US and and get their license.

B Yeah. I feel like this is definitely one of those hidden conversations within an architecture firm that if you if you don't take the time to get to know somebody that you might not ever know their story. In the offices where I feel like diversity was really celebrated, I think some of these conversations emerge through really intentional cultural building exercises. Like, I remember we used to have a potluck that was, really great in in one of my offices, and that allowed everyone to bring in dishes that were, like, personal to them. And through sharing food, it really opened up this rich conversation about where people were from. Or in other instances, sometimes it's about, like, what holidays people celebrate and what what they're bringing forward from their personal life experiences and sharing with the group. But, again, I think in some offices, it can be very hidden, and so you might not ever, be able to approach these conversations or get someone to open up and share more about their life journey.

A What also strikes me is just, like, their inability to even get work in some offices. Right? Like, you well, right now, we're in the middle of a great resignation, so I think there's a lot of firms that are clamoring for people. But there's still gonna be restrictions for whether or not as an immigrant, you're working for a firm that's willing to sponsor you. And then on top of that, there's so many limitations on your ability to find another job once you have found a firm that is going to sponsor you.

B Yeah. And I think it comes back to that unconscious bias conversation that we've we've had definitely in the equity by design conversations that I think everybody has hidden biases. And I do think that, unfortunately, immigrants face a lot harsher unconscious biases just because of, the there are so many barriers we talked about in this episode from language to cultural differences to licensing differences to practicing, you know, differently in the United States than their home country. So it creates this, I think, challenge that they're they're faced with, and and they have to figure out how to navigate it.

A Right. Not only that, though, but there is, like, the added operational overhead cost of all the paperwork they have to file, right, to to enable them to allow an individual to work at your firm for so long. And then there's also an added financial commitment on top of that, which I actually don't think is as great as most firms think it is if they were to kind of research and say, I wanna actually see how to open up my firm to these individuals. You know, the US is such a melting pot of different cultures, and, you know, I'm one generation away from from being an immigrant, and my ability to get work just seems so much easier than theirs. But I you know, like, let's not forget that my parents were were immigrants to the US.

B I'm a first generation American on one side of my family, and so that was definitely, I think, why this conversation was really interesting to me because I know my mom's story in coming to the United States, and it's certainly it's not my story, but I you know, as her daughter, I experienced a lot of the, a lot of what she experienced coming to the United States and her transition into becoming a US citizen, impacts how my experience was growing up. And so I I want to, talk about this conversation because I think from a diversity standpoint, I know so many people who either are they they did immigrate here and they're practicing or they are first generation Americans, and their parents came to the United States to help them, you know, find a better life. And so I think these stories are extremely important because it it touches so many people in offices all over the country. It's just not something that I think gets discussed a lot. And so I think more, you know, as we continue to talk about diversity in our offices, this is an additional layer of the conversation that I think people can can

A talk about and and to find common ground on and to explore further. Hearing their stories, I'm kind of reminded that, you know, that of my parents' attempt to raise my brother and I as very American. Right? So for, historically, for me to understand my history and where I have come from, I've really had to proactively ask them very specific questions to tease out their own story. And this conversation kind of just reminded me to to do that more often, especially where they are in in their life, and just to understand where I've come from so that I can pass it on to my own children.

B Yeah. Similarly, my mom and I, we talk a lot about her childhood in Canada and, like, her experience coming to the United States. I mean, she literally went from, a one room schoolhouse to going into a junior high in the United States where she had to navigate from one classroom to the next and had never had any experience like that before. And then and in the process of, like, getting her citizenship, you know, she has really embraced her US identity. But I do feel like I feel a huge disconnect from the family that we have in Canada who, you know, haven't have I've never met. And, I think it's just interesting because I I I hear so many other stories from friends who some go back and they visit their family. Some, they, they know where they came from and then others who don't, like me. And so I think that has really actually prompted me to try to create a family here in the US, which is why I I think I tend to, like, try to make so many friends is just to fill the gap of not really having a deep connection to my own immediate family.

B So I have this, like, kinda collected family here. But it is just there's so much depth to these conversations. And just, again, as we think about how people perceive and experience the world differently, I think those different lived experiences are so diverse, and that's really what shapes these different points of view and and how people approach things very differently based on where they come from and how they were raised in their life experiences.

A And on that note, I think we'll end our conversation. Thank you so much for listening, and tune in next week.

J Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

A Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

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