Southeast Asian American Architects

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode.

B I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing. Together, we'll find ways to

A create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hello, Evelyn. Hey, disruptors.

A So this particular episode, we are going to expand upon our ongoing diversity series on practice disrupted, and we were inspired to revisit our discussion on Asian American architects. This this episode in particular, I think, has been a long one coming because I literally said at the close of the last Asian American architect episode that we need to do one focusing on the broader definition. So this one, we are learning and exploring more about Southeast Asian architects.

B We're joined today by 3 leaders who have lived in diverse locations around the world and are going to share their stories that capture the spirit of place, architecture and belonging.

A Meghana Doshi, AIA NOMA, is an award winning architect from California.

B Suyama Bodenayake, associate AIA. Suyama's diverse experience in architecture spans 3 continents, shaping his commitment to design excellence, sustainability, and service. He currently resides and works in Southern California.

A Farah Ahmed is an architect and lead accredited professional based in New York City, specialized in building sustainably and green building standards. Let's cut to their stories.

C I am an Asian American Pakistani Muslim woman, born and raised in New York City. I found my place in the architecture profession through a series of challenges and opportunities. Over the last 3 decades, I have grown up, lived, or worked in the boroughs of Staten Island and Manhattan in New York City, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and currently Bergen County, New Jersey. My early impressions of the profession have been shaped by both my physical environments and my ethnic background. I have to speak on both. They're both big influences. I've experienced a myriad of communities and a myriad of backgrounds. The quiet sprawl of suburbia, the dense city environment, and the countryside.

C While these places differ greatly, one common woven thread of these areas has been the sense of place that creates a community. We, as architects, have a powerful role in shaping this definition of place. I perceived all of these places as home at some point in time in my life. Though Staten Island may be one of the densest suburban environments I've ever experienced with all of its development, I've appreciated the familiarity and history of places that have long existed. It's greenbelt, coastline, and local businesses that have been around for generations. The typology of the classic New York City brick schools that I grew up going to and the local parks, these are all nostalgic. In Manhattan, I've come to appreciate the sense of place created by the people, the events, the ever changing storefronts, and that has taken place because of the dynamic architecture that continues to respond to the community needs of its citizens. In Lancaster, the beautiful acres of green land, sustainable farming practices, and the sense of culture which transports one back to a more minimalistic lifestyle, are all shaped by the preservation of history and the building typologies and craft that had existed for decades.

C In my current community in Northern New Jersey, I'm in a greater suburban sprawl, where acres separate neighbors and where zoning permits larger green properties. We've had a mix of all of the above, fields, farmlands, forests, rivers, in proximity to a busier town. In fact, Saddle River brings forth the semblances of all of the places I have mentioned. I'm lucky to have spent most of my life in New York City due to the great extensive diversity. However, early on, I discovered a lack of diversity among the faculty at my architecture school. For several years, I found it difficult as a student to make a personal connection with architecture. Many professors spoke an obscure and overly inflated language, and I just couldn't relate to their perspectives on the profession. But I was living in a city where diversity was so great.

C South Asian architects, as I came to learn once I graduated and started working in the field, here in the US, seem to be few and far between. I can count on one hand the number of licensed Pakistani women architects I have met. Working in the public sector for local government, I've definitely experienced more diversity and even amongst leadership ranks. This has motivated me to keep reaching, keep putting myself out there, and connect with other Asians who may not feel a sense of belonging in the profession.

D Coexisting peacefully in the same community along with new construction. South Indian Hindu temples have followed the principles of fractals in design, trigonometry to develop intricate details. Pran knots and boromian triangles adored temple pillars as carvings, elaborate geometrical motifs on walls and ceilings, tessellating polygons along the expanses of the walls of a mosque, arches defining whispering galleries and echo chambers, the golden ratio, Fibonacci sequences, symmetry, alignment, hyperbolic parvolites, Euclidean geometry in Spanish missions, concating slant walls of Cathedral of Christ the light, simple clean lines and symmetry of crystal cathedral. Architecture is a three-dimensional mathematical model that is abstract and absolute at the same time. All you need to do is look up and look around to see the relation.

E I've lived and worked in Australia, Southeast Asia, and North America. Specifically, in Sydney, Australia, in Columbus, Sri Lanka, and on the east and west coast of the United States. In New York City, Manhattan and in Irvine, California. All of these places claim a unique part of my growth and understanding of the world. They all have unique cultures, places and paces. They have similar aspirations and core values within their diverse communities too. Interestingly, all these places are adjacent to coastlines and harbors which likely help these places develop a consciousness and an openness to what lies beyond. Looking back, my approach to placemaking has been influenced by living and travelling between these places more than I was aware while I was actively experiencing them.

E The human animal land connection I was exposed to at a younger age in the eighties in Sri Lanka stuck with me. Their eyes of sustainable local farming and spaces that were created to be in harmony with nature. When I was in Australia, I saw the unity of Sydney Siders around ideas of what they wanted development to do for them and how they wanted to be seen and recognized in the world. In the late nineties early 2000s, vibrancy, sustainability as well as sustainability as a means to promote equity were priorities that everyone understood and contributed towards. An advantage I see in the US is the abundance of funding and access to resources coupled with a no horseback spirit. There's a hidden infrastructure to put money behind whatever agenda is desired. Because of that, the impact can be manyfold greater than that in other places, whatever that impact may be to society or to the environment. Despite sharing some of these place specific observations, I've learned that there is often limited value in making firm categories.

E A lot of experiences are more fluid and subject to transformations than we'd sometimes want to acknowledge. Probably because we put so much time and energy into building tangible milestones. But going back to the lessons I've drawn from living and working in these places, I don't dwell on the hard categories that seemingly define their social, economic or potential. I've seen people who dumpster dive in New York City. I also know people in Sri Lanka who fly mechanics from Italy to look at their Ferraris every month. To some, these may be unexpected occurrences in New York City or in Colombo and yet none of that defines the economics of these places either. I am interested in drawing on my experiences of people, places, and programs more as a fluid framework for responding to new challenges, programs, or briefs, and allowing those diverse responses to integrate into my vision of place making. I have come to appreciate how places and people can teach if only we listen.

E If we listen, we can make environments that are welcoming and safe.

D Census defines Asian race as having origins in one of the original peoples of Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent, including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. That broad classification covers more than 20 ethnicities. The generic definition of Asianness is a spectrum of Asian people that doesn't usually include people from the subcontinent, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and such. Unfortunately, for us architects from the subcontinent, there are additional challenges considering our underrepresentation in the profession. I could count the number of Indian architects I know on my fingers. There are only 2 Pakistani American architects I know, and, Suyama is the only Sri Lankan American architect in my network. So welcome, Suyama and Farah. Let's hear your stories today.

D Let's start with your background. Where are you from, and what's your path to US? For example, I'm from South India. And until recently, I didn't put much emphasis on my path to immigration since it was a very organic approach. I took a work visa and followed it up with the application to citizenship. I came to US in search of better opportunities in life and lived that American dream I saw in the movies. American dream so far has had different meanings and different things in different stages of life, and it's been evolving as I mature in the profession. I'm sure it's the same thing for you guys, and I I would love to hear your stories. Siama, you wanna go first?

F Thanks, Meghana. I've been fortunate that I've lived, worked in 3 continents, Australia, Asia, and North America. I was born in Sydney, Australia, lived in Sri Lanka, and then went back to Sydney. That's where I did my bachelor's and master's in architecture, and now it's been over 2 decades ago. In all these travels, I met someone who happened to live in North America, and that began my long distance relationship with Southern California. Once I moved to the US, we moved to New York City to work for some time, and then we moved back to Southern California 5 years ago. And now that's home, and I'm with my amazing wife and 2 kids.

C Well, I'm a first generation Pakistani American born and raised in New York City. You know, there's always been talks about whether I relate more to my Pakistani background or my American background, and I really feel connected to both cultures, really and truly. I went to college in Manhattan, but I was raised in this very quiet suburb of Staten Island, New York City, which is often the forgotten borough. New York City, I also commuted back and forth to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, very suburban slash rural area. And recently, after getting married, I moved to Bergen County, New Jersey. My life has really revolved around the northeast, but I have traveled quite a bit, and that has changed my perspectives. I'm very proud to have been born and raised here, but I identify very closely with my South Asian culture.

D Farah, that brings me to the next question. Do you feel that sense of cultural duality in you? I feel like sometimes I'm Indian, but, you know, American too, but then there are times where I'm not Indian enough and not American enough. So there is that whole dichotomy of belonging everywhere, but at the same time, not belonging anywhere.

C I couldn't agree more and especially being raised here. You know, I've come from a very traditional background, as all South Asians can relate to. There's a very strong sense of culture at home and among social gatherings, close family, and friends of the same background. But when you go to school and you go to work, you're exposed to so much more diversity, and there's always a balance between what values you extract from your your traditional background versus what you've are surrounded with, when you're working and experiencing life. I definitely feel connected to both, but I do think that in more recent years, as I've gotten older, I've strived to represent their diversity more so in my work, and it's something that I try and make more notice of and try to educate others about.

D Suyama, what are your thoughts?

F It's it's it's hard to say. I feel like I'm a citizen of the world, and I kind of share your sentiment. But I found it very hard to often, like, you know, make hard categories because it kind of limits a person placing themselves into a category. It kinda puts you in a box, and sometimes that box defines who you are, whether you want it to be defined that way or not. And, I feel there's more humanness that is more important, and I don't think that we should think of it as, okay, This is you because you're American or Pakistani or Sri Lankan or Australian. I mean, especially hearing Farah's background and, Meghana, your background, which I know also. I feel like we 3 of us have, like, a unique perspective in terms of where we belong and how we belong, and it's more of an individual thing than what other people might really say, oh, this is you. Because by doing that, they already put you in a box, and I don't think that is helpful for us or for them.

C I can understand that perspective. I think where it's important to really bring out that distinction is when we're trying to bring more diversity into the profession. Because as we know, the number of South Asian Americans and architecture is lacking, and the question is why. You know, why aren't we celebrating this profession more in our culture? Is it is it a cultural issue? Is this something that is an issue with, the way we've been raised or the perceptions about the profession? That's something that I would love to get to the root of. So if if we can use our diversity to inspire others to join a profession that needs diversity, then I think that we should celebrate that. I completely agree with, not wanting to be placed in the box, especially when we're being told that we're not American enough or we're not South Asian enough.

F Yeah. I mean, each person's experience is different. Like, my experience growing up I mean, you know, full disclosure, I'm a son of an architect. And I was exposed because of that, I was exposed to architecture at a very, very early age. And I grew up in a lot of grew up around a lot of Southeast Asian architects. And that's all I saw growing up, Southeast Asian architects. Even as a tiny kid, I would keep to up to my dad's drawing board and draw circles when he's not looking. And then at the time, you know, he was working with the renowned Sri Lankan architect, Jeffrey Bauer, and later dad had his own firm.

F And at a young age, you know, parents were building their family home, and I got to see the whole design process of building and the processes that went with with it, as well as people who made it happen. So I had a very up close and personal vantage point. And those memories left a lasting impact on me on how design gets materialized. So at the same time, I had opportunities to travel in the farming areas of Sri Lanka. So I was exposed to farming, sustainable farming practices and spaces that were designed in harmony with the surroundings. So passive design principles and sustainable living became very familiar. You know, in in in New York City, I was fortunate again to have leadership roles in construction and and worked on several public and institutional projects in all the 5 boroughs, including schools in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan, and a courthouse in Staten Island, and several institutional projects in Manhattan. And this was around the time of Hurricane Sandy.

F And after all that flooding, the mechanical rooms were moved up from the ground floor. So, you know, this experience showed me how our profession can quickly adapt to building and climate resilience. So, like, you know, it was it was all that that kind of shaped me, who I am right now. Having the background in Sri Lanka and seeing Southeast Asian architects and then seeing how it happens in Australia, it was more about what you can do and how unique your unique backgrounds. And that is, I think, similar to everybody. I mean, your but the strengths you bring, Farah, is something that I don't have. And that's something that Meaganah doesn't have. And what Meaganah has, we both don't have.

F So I think each individual has their own uniqueness that they bring in, and that's what makes the profession so great.

D That's a great answer, Sayama. I'm gonna dial back a little bit and talk a little bit more about the cultural assimilation part. I know that a lot of other cultures assimilate in a different way than the Indian subcontinent. They change their names. They work on getting that American accent. But us people from the subcontinent are very comfortable in their accent, and, we don't really change our names, and we keep teaching everybody how to say it. So we are sort of in that cultural adaptation zone where we haven't completely let go of who we are. But at the same time, we want a piece of that American dream.

D We want to be where, you know, be at the table where decisions are made, not just at the drafting table, and we wanna get ahead. And how are you able to balance both of them and, you know, sort of BU still?

C I think for me, division and and diversity really and this may sound naive, but they weren't at the forefront of my mind when I was going along with pursuing architecture and pursuing the license and going from one career path to another, you know, moving around different positions. I'd never really thought about, you know, am I disadvantaged because of my race or because of my gender because I'm a woman? I would say a few years into the profession when I started attending more and more AA industry meetings, and I realized I was the only minority female in a group of white males, at the AIA San Island chapter was when I really started seeing that difference. But working in the public sector and in New York City, maybe it's because of where I've worked primarily. But I have seen a lot of diversity, amongst different positions in city government. I've seen females take lead. I've seen South Asians, have high management roles. And for me, that division really hasn't, stopped me from progressing because, again, it just wasn't an issue. I never saw it as a deterrent.

C I I haven't faced too many obstacles or or discrimination in that sense. I think for the most part, it has been a level playing field, but I also think that that comes with having the mindset that you just need to get to that next step and what are the sets that you need, to obtain to get there. And part of that has been surrounding myself with mentors who are going to propel me forward, mentors that aren't discriminating or, maybe taking my age or my race at, some sort of a disadvantage. So I think the mentality really helps.

F Yeah. I think Farah hit it on the head. It's it's it's all how you approach it in in in my opinion. I mean, if you wanna go really back, June 12, 17, 76, the Virginia declaration actually speaks of pursuing and obtaining of happiness, not just pursuit of happiness like they wrote on July 4th. So the obtaining part, it's it's it's it's the ultimate goal, isn't it? So you're doing your best because you enjoy it. And if you enjoy it, you always tend to do your best. And, I mean, that's that's the best part about being in architecture. If you love it, the tedious things don't really seem tedious.

F At least in my opinion, that's how I feel. And then when you do a good job, you get noticed. I I don't think it is, you know I at least, I haven't experienced it. I'm I I guess I'm lucky in that sense. I haven't I was just looking I was looking inward and thinking, okay. Maybe I'm really not doing it correctly, and I need to do it right. So it's it this was, like, at a very early stage. So I I feel like it's you get what you give, and I and I firmly believe that.

F And I think that applies to everybody.

D Thank you, sir, man, for for, answering that question. I'm a little older than you, both of you. You've been in the industry for 22 years exactly, and, I've seen women being a minority. I've seen people misspelling my name. I've been in Magana for too long, and it took me some time to correct people and tell them to say Meghana, not Meghana, even though I knew I was not gonna meet them again. Because in the beginning I'll tell you what happened. In the beginning, I would let people call me because if I didn't see them again, it didn't matter to me. But as my awareness grew, I knew that if I don't correct them, they are gonna call every out there, and that's not acceptable.

D And I have been putting efforts to learn other cultural names and say them right, so they should do the same. And I expected it from them. And right now, I'm at a stage where I correct people to say Magna, and, a lot of people call me Yoshi, and I correct them and say, it's not Yoshi. It's Joshi. We are South Asians, and we like saying every alphabet out there in our name. And, you know, that kind of learning and adapting and evolving also, that has happened throughout my career. And, I've been given great opportunities. Again, great mentors, and, I call them my board of directors these days because I'm pretty sure I have more than 11 mentors at this point in my life.

D And, you know, it's never been a secret that I've been pursuing leadership roles within AIA and even within my firm. And, I made my leaders aware of that, and I've asked them always, what do I need to do to get to that position? And other than one person in the beginning of my career, no one ever told me the way you look or sound is gonna stop you. And, I will tell you, one person did tell me to learn to put that American accent because it will open more doors for me, which I didn't because, you know, there are other problems like the way it changes your speech and you have to get your braces and all that. I didn't wanna go through all that, but here I am, progressing in an organic way again. But I don't know. Are there any stories in your life where you felt like somebody told you that you don't really belong and this is not really your dream to live?

F The first day of, college was a shell shock for us. There was 95 students in a big room, and we walk in. And the first thing that the lecturer, who is a very senior person who I we saw, we knew of, first thing he says is, what what the hell are you guys doing here? Who are you all? Right? And he says you know, he goes on to say, how many of you are here? And don't you guys know this is architecture? By the time you know, go and do something else. Don't be here. You you're wasting your time. And 95 students at the end of 1st year became 45. By the time we graduated our bachelor's, it was only around 35. So there was a kind of a culling that happened after 1st year.

F I mean, lack of a better word, calling. But there was, like, a huge dropout because a lot of people couldn't really hack it. The late nights, the bleeding fingers, the computer rooms, you know, and the nodos, the the the Gatorades, the the Red Bulls. Like, we all know that. We've already been there. Everybody knows each other so intimately, and, you know, we know what their families are, where they are, where what stage everybody is at, and and all of that that goes with it, which is kind of a unique bond. I feel like architects and I know, you know, some other professions share that too, but mainly architects really share that. And there's this huge unity that we have.

F And I think that makes us stronger because when you go out to the real world, the amount of work and the amount of, things that we are responsible for as a professional, it's a good training ground for us to be like that at the start. I I don't necessarily agree that everybody should go and, you know, kill themselves trying to become an architect, but it kind of really helps us get that thick skin early, which is, I think, needed for the profession. And if you really like it and you stick to it, then I feel like you would you would reap the benefits of it. I mean, this is a totally personal opinion, but that's how I saw it going through that whole, you know, barrage of okay. Like, it's it's like it's like boot camp in the army. Not that I've ever done that, but I'm imagining it to be like that where, you know, there's this drill sergeant just yelling at you. It was kind of like that, but it kind of, you know, helps you pause and think about it and reflect it now. At the time, it wasn't that nice at all.

F But, brief looking back, I feel like maybe that kind of made us have a thicker skin and and and help us deal with problems that we face when we want to create something amazing and beautiful for the betterment of society. You you're always gonna get that microphone shout shouting at you. And this kind of that education helps you focus to get what you want and take you where you need to go.

D Do you have any awareness about how many Asian American architects or how many Asian subcontinent architects are in America. Have you ever paid attention to that number, or do you think it's immaterial?

C The answer to that is there is no central database for Asian American architects. And oftentimes, I don't feel like I'm categorized in the Asian American sector because there isn't a lot of attention given to, these South Asian countries that, Meghana, you mentioned at the beginning of this conversation. Because there's no central database, it's very the information out there is very divided. The statistics are very divided. I have to rely on personal connections that I've made. And most recently during the pandemic, some of the virtual connections that I've made, just like you guys, of South Asians that are in the profession. Of South Asian architects and their contributions. And oftentimes, when I have tried to locate information or mistakenly come upon, South Asian architects, I've seen a lot of credit, given to male architects and not women from our countries.

C And so that huge gap of information really makes me wonder why isn't this being documented or why isn't it being honored? So we need to start doing that more and we need to celebrate those achievements and maybe that's how we'll get women from our countries or in general, just that ethnic diversity, brought into our profession. We need to demystify the profession, and we need to do it by celebrating these people.

D I couldn't agree more. There was a general disregard for women in architecture before, and, we are still trying to fix that by writing women in Wikipedia, which is a continuous effort from the past decade or so and will continue into the next decade because there are so many forgotten women in architecture. It's it's just amazing what we do to our history. Farah, I'll ask you another question, I'm saying. Do you think documenting women or, in general, Asian American architects or architects from the subcontinent will have any value in creating a better pipeline of Asian American architects.

C I think so because that relatability and that personal link, that personal connection to architecture is what drew me in as well. Suyama, you mentioned that you were drawn into the profession because of a family member and I was also drawn in because of my father who's an engineer construction project manager. And, Meghna, I would love to hear, what your link was into architecture as well if I might flip the script a bit. But I came into the profession because of a family member as well, because I could relate, or find some connection. So I'd love to hear how you also join the profession.

D I didn't have a family member who was an architect. My father is a political science lecturer, and my mother is a writer. She just released her 13th book in the pandemic, actually. And my connection to architecture was purely through buildings. And, I am a big fan of religious architecture. So far, I haven't designed one, but that's my bucket list. I visited a lot of temples growing up. I went to mosques, and I've been to a lot of missions now and a lot of churches and everywhere.

D You know? I'm just amazed by the symmetry and geometry in things. And when I'll tell you the story. When I was little, I used to sit outside the temple and not go inside. And one of my family members thought it's because I didn't believe in God. I told her, no. I do believe in God, but I see it in the building, in the details, and not inside. So there was a little difference in there. And when I became an architect, I I didn't think of becoming a regular architect per se doing regular designs, I had a feeling that I would do great things and, started out my journey thinking I would be the next Zaha Hadid.

D So, you know, journeys are different, destinations are different, and you adapt and you evolve. I don't know if it's too late to be the next, Adi, but let's see. There is still 40 years left in my career.

F I think also what's nice is that if you put yourself out there and if you really advocate to what you believe in, then a lot of people will see you, and then you will be recognized for it. And the more you do it, the more you get good at it. And the more you get good at it, the more recognition you get. And then more other people who are trying to be like you or wanna be where you are at, they will find inspiration in you. And that is not really race based, that's just drive based. And I feel that is a better threat for our profession. Although do I do see that there's a huge void of female architects and, especially, females of color not being in the forefront. But at the same time, there's some merit what a, a female architect brings into a project as opposed to a male architect, what they bring into a project.

F There's, like, you know, there's different things that different people bring in. The best of both worlds is what I wanna strive for so that we move on as a species and and go to the next level of the human existence by, you know, not really getting bogged down with with boxes and labels.

D I like that. Design for diversity. And, you know, so I'm at it's diversity is very important in design because not too long ago, we used to use the modular man to design kitchens, and, we did that even in India where average woman is 5 foot 2 inches and cooks. And imagine being at a counter that's designed to fit a 6 foot tall man. It's it's it's just sometimes it disgusts me when we have no regard for diversity. I'm all for assimilation. I'm all for removing every label out there, but there are times that we need these labels and diversity back in the design.

C I do like what you say about, not using labels to drive your effort and letting your effort speak for itself because I think those are principles that I've always operated on. You know, it hasn't been. I'm going to be the 1st Pakistani American Muslim woman to do this. It's more like, oh, hey. This is really piquing my interest. I want to challenge myself. I want to see if I can accomplish this. I'm going to go ahead and take those exams.

C I'm gonna get the license. I'm gonna see where that takes me next. It's always been about keeping my eye on sort of that next level, somewhat linear approach, but then letting organic opportunities take shape. And, you know, my career has gone in a way that I couldn't have imagined. You know, I specialize in green building standards now, but that wasn't something that I said very beginning. I just knew I wanted to pursue some sort of an environmental sustainability path I think putting that effort forth and putting myself out there, allowed others to then create this label and and put on this place this extra recognition like, oh, look at this minority female. She's doing this. She's pursuing this.

C Those labels came after, but, again, it was just the inspiration and and the effort that propelled it forward first. And I like that, you know, it didn't have that tunnel vision with with labels like you mentioned, Suyema. I think it's more just it's been very organic in that sense, and then the labels or the recognition sort of came after. And you kind of look back and say, oh, well, yeah, I I guess I did do that, but you don't aspire to to necessarily get there with a label. It just happens.

F Yeah. I mean, the spin on the spin on that is far like, you know, what Meaghan was asking before, is there a model minority? Is there a model majority? Where do you start? Where do you stop? That's why it doesn't it only holds so much. Right.

D That's true. Farah, I just wanted to add to your point. You're always representing. I think even when you're not subconsciously making an effort to identify yourself as a Pakistani or a Pakistani American, you are still representing. And I think I kind of got told this early on in my career when one of my mentors said, you will always be the Indian girl, and every Indian girl who comes after will you will be judged according to you. So if I'm a hard worker, they will expect the next Indian girl to be a hard worker. And if I'm a slacker, which I'm not, they would think all Indians are slackers. So I think even when we are not labeling ourselves, we are still representing and helping build that stereotype in somebody's mind somewhere.

D We cannot escape that.

C That's such an excellent point. It's almost like we have this responsibility to bring forth that that recognition by the way we present ourselves. It's sort of unacknowledged, but always there. I might not even be cognizant of it, but that's very true. I'm sure that that leaves an impression upon our employers, our peers. So in some sense, we have that pressure. But as long as you keep doing well and keep doing you like you are doing already, Magna, you'll be fine. And same with you, Soima, we're continuing to aspire and hopefully serve as role models and present our culture in an excellent manner.

C Let's take a break

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D I noticed one commonality between all three of us. We are all extremely hardworking, and we are very engaged in our profession beyond work. And we are very much into our cultural identity at home too. So with all that comes burnout. How do you deal with burnout?

F I actually find a lot of, relaxation in cooking. That's my other passion. I really enjoy creating and making food and feeding my family. So after a really hard day's work, I come home, and if I get to cook, if my wife hasn't made it already, if I come early enough, that is. Then I when I do that, I that's a way of destressing, if that's your question. And it kind of helps me rejuvenate. And I try really hard to leave work at work and, come fresh home, especially for the little ones. But sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

F No one's perfect. It was a lot more harder when I was doing, when I was in construction. That took a lot more out of it. I feel there has to be some kind of education as to what the build partners go through in in creating and developing a project as well. Because when I was there, 5 o'clock in the morning, I have 93 emails on average, and every one of them is a burning issue. And every one of them is, I'm gonna go home. We are gonna go by 10 o'clock If this is not resolved by 9 o'clock before before morning tea, we are out. So it's like fires on fires, and then you think, you know, getting a construction documentation deadline is, you know, walk in the park compared to that kind of pressure.

F So it it all depends on how you handle stress. And and at the end of the day, I feel if you're enjoying doing something and if you really believe that you can actually design even writing a letter, writing an email, taking a telephone message, is actually you can design it so that it it's clear and succinct, and it's it's to the point. If you do each, like, you know, each task like that, then there's a little bit of enjoyment in it that helps you, you know, overcome the the hardness of it and and and the and the task. The when the going gets tough, the tough gets going. Right? BILL the ocean. I I I firmly believe that. If you keep your head down and just work through it, then burnout doesn't really happen, and we should also, you know, do a bit of self care. We should, you know, try to get some time out and enjoy with or do things that you like, like me cooking or, you know, me going for a drive.

F Those are the things that, you know, gets me to relax or go to the beach, and just, you know, veg out, watch a movie, do things like that.

C I think achieving a life work balance is the perfect way to prevent burnout. And I think part of that and these are lessons that we learned during the pandemic with telecommuting, you know, working from home. That work life balance comes with having colleagues respect your boundaries and setting your expectations for your work hours. No. I don't answer emails or take calls in the evenings and on weekends, and my colleagues have come to know that and they've respected it. And because I have my fixed working hours, and part of that is due to the fact that I'm a government employee, my window of working hours is set. Because I have that fixed time, I'm able to pursue other professional and personal interests outside of my working hours. And because of that, I I I definitely come back to work more refreshed.

C I feel like a new person on Monday morning. I'm more fulfilled and satisfied in my personal life because I've done things, like, take care of my mental health, my physical health. I love running. That's a very good stress outlet for me. I love cooking. I love traveling, and I love socializing and networking with people of all backgrounds. These little things in life, gardening, these other interests that I have that I'm able to make time for is because I close the books on my regular work schedule and take the time out to pursue other things. I think this very toxic workaholic culture that we have at firms in architecture is terrible, and I think that we architects have sort of celebrated that.

C We've made it a badge of honor to wear. You know, I worked in the office until 8 or 9. I was slaving away. I wasn't compensated for it, and these are not things that we should be celebrating or dictating proudly. We should have lives outside of work, and there's nothing wrong with that. And for some reason, that is a stigma in the profession. That I couldn't agree with you more. It is

F it is sad that it has come to a place where it is celebrated. How many all nighters you do is like a thing that, oh, yeah. You know? It's a badge of honor, which is not really great for the person doing it or the family that's, you know, on the other end of it. And the work that you're producing can't be that good either. If you can't do something in 8 hours, then it has to go to another day. And if it takes more than 8 hours, then the people who are above you, who are in the management, you know, level should know better. And if they don't, then that is a an issue that the upper management should take with the person who allocated the time. And, also, I feel, you know, the there should be more support.

F I don't know whether it should come in a office environment or whether it should be legislation, But, you know, care for mothers, when they go back to work after having a baby. You know, you can't really go back and make life normal in 2 weeks. It's not possible. I'm I'm

C That's true.

F You know, I'm I I I've seen it. I don't wanna I mean, that's a whole different conversation, Meghna. I'm the only guy here. So I'm speaking way out of my turn here, but, I feel there has to be that kind of support there as well. So that way, you encourage more girls and women to join the profession because it's not this, you know, crazy, experience that they have to go through, and and and what is on the other end of the the scale. You know? At the end of the day, you know, a deadline is a deadline. Your family is your family. Family is forever.

F What something that this pandemic has taught me is that, even with all these issues that we had and all these barriers that we had, getting to work, vaccinations, diseases, people dying, which is all crazy and terrible. We still manage to survive. Business, I've heard from people, is booming. There are companies that say they made more money in the last year than they had made in the 50 years of being in business. So there is a big case for, you know, this work life balance, you know, this hybrid way of working, which kind of especially where I'm in at in my life, with younger children, it's very sustainable for me right now. I mean, I might not make as much as I used to because my hours are reduced, but the the joy I get from being at home and being around kids and the work I'm producing when I have to work, it's there's a considerable amount of, you know, there's a difference. The enjoyment that I get out of it.

D Thanks, Leanna. I think, personally, for me, there has never been work life balance. I do try and, you know, schedule things so that they're well balanced. But in my experience, the week that I have something at AI is the week that I'm supposed to be working 50 hours, and that's also the week one of my daughters has a concert and one decides to get sick. So that that's exactly how it's been for many, many years. And I just learned to roll with the punches, and I go through each priority as it occurs and not worry about the next one. But one thing I've consistently done in the past 20 years for myself is take quarterly mental health days. I take one day off every quarter, and I don't usually tell my husband also that I'm taking a day off.

D And I don't do much during that time. I just lounge around, read, eat what I want, and, not stress myself with self care because I feel like self care has become a stress factor too where you're supposed to do certain skin care. You know, go get your mani pedi. No. I don't wanna do that. I don't even wanna cut my nails today. Maybe I just wanna be on the sofa under my blanket, and that's my self care. So I do schedule those mental health break days, and that gives me time to kind of heal myself and get ready for the next onslaught of work life imbalance.

C I don't think quarterly is enough. I think you could probably take more. What keeps you going? I would you know, I I don't have kids of my own yet, but I would like to start a family someday. And how do you juggle as a mom and as an architect working full time and pursuing all these extracurricular activities you're so involved? What what's the mentality that keeps you going and what is your fuel?

D You just keep doing what you're passionate about. And, like Sayama said, when you're passionate about something, it doesn't feel like work, and it feels like a priority that you have to address. And I've been doing just that. You know, when I started the Women in Architecture Committee, that was my first foray into, AI Orange County, and I had the support I needed to succeed. Betsy Dougherty and, you know, Jenna and then Jeff Gill, everybody supported me to succeed. And I think those kind of frameworks and surrounding yourself with people who help you succeed and kind of hold your hand when you stumble a little, that's very important. So I'll ask one last question. What do you want leaders from the profession who are not well versed from the South Asian culture to walk away from this conversation having learned in order to better the profession, their firms, and their people.

D I think I can respond first to this just to give you guys some inspiration. We have this group called Belong at Little, and, that's our step towards making everybody feel welcome and, truly belong in the company. And we recently launched employee resource groups. One of them is called Colorways, where people of color will, you know, come together and, celebrate the diversity and support each other through things. And I think that should be the norm, not just something that big companies do. I would love to see even small companies participate in efforts like that and celebrate the diversity they have. Learn from other cultures. Learn the architecture from that part.

D Learn the way they do business. Maybe there are good things that we can adapt here and, truly being multicultural.

F The diversity, I think, should be celebrated. It is a positive, whichever way you slice it. There are very few negatives, and if someone's seeing a negative, it's most likely because they haven't been exposed to it in a correct way. That's my opinion. In Australia, I saw how architectural design can be used for branding, for it can how it can be used to define a city and activate communities. I mean, it's it's a very strong force over there. And the the one of the key components of that strength is the diversity of, at least in Sydney, of the the residents. Same way that you see in New York, where you see the diversity really driving these amazing projects and and the how they are received and how they are perceived, how they're experienced, how you feel, like, oh, wow.

F You feel really comfortable. It's it's it's really nice, and that kind of comes with experience, I think all of us will get there. But sometimes, because of our diverse experience, someone else might have a better way of doing it, and it kind of bridges that gap. You don't have to wait till you're 65 or 75 to do a good building. You can do it when you're 40 if you, you know, look at all the clues and and and and and observe and listen, and try to read, what's out there. And for that, you have to be really quiet and really listen really well. I feel companies who don't, celebrate what diversity brings kind of lack that refinedness in their designs and in in in in everything that they do. And companies that and firms that celebrate, the diversity always then not tend to lead in in design and and doing really good work.

F I mean, that's the experience I have seen. And I have seen that in in the US. I have seen that in Australia and even in Sri Lanka.

C I think I've always appreciated when leaders in the profession or, let's say, in my bubble, employers in my office make the effort to get to know me and my background. They ask questions. They want to understand maybe my religion or some of the holidays I celebrate and observe, and that to me creates a very inclusive workplace. And when when an employer is curious about my background, it makes me a bit more enthusiastic about the camaraderie, in the office. It contributes to the office culture, and it sort of creates a sense of unity. So I I truly appreciate when office leaders, take that into account and demonstrate that curiosity. I think that that's something that employers could be more conscious of when trying to create a more diverse and equitable workplace.

F Yeah. And also not just having you as a poster child, but actually listening to what you have to say. You know, not just a seat at the table, but letting you speak, at the table and and listening to what you have to say is also very important because lot of I feel like, you know, I've seen where there are not so great companies, they put you in as a as a placeholder, and that's about it.

D That's true. The token minority candidate at the table who doesn't have a voice because it's already a big deal there at the table.

F I mean, they lose they they lose at the end because, you know, it's always you know, it it's sad that they lose at the end because they are not hearing another voice and another perspective because they are only seeing what they are accustomed to. And sometimes that vision is like tunnel vision. You know, you're just seeing, you know, planet to planet, not seeing what everything is that's around it. So it's kind of important to see you know, I mean, different people have different ways of doing things. I feel like, you know, if there's if you explore all avenues, you'll always come up with a better result.

C I think when you give a minority of voice at the table too, it also serves as mentorship. I know that my employers, my current employer gives me so much freedom to contribute to a meeting, to bring forth my expertise, and that has built up my confidence so much in the last decade of working. I think having that voice and being given that respect and being given the responsibility and trust to carry forth, my opinions and views in the meeting based on research that I've done or designs that I've looked at. It's built me as an architect. It's built some of those soft skills. It gives me again that that confidence that I can succeed, and it makes me want to do better. So I think overall, it's a win win situation when you let diverse voices speak up.

F And also it's like the passing of the knowledge too, isn't it? It's like if you have a regardless of race and background, if you have a person who's senior to you and they are kind of taking you under their wing, shouldn't they be kind of, you know, seeing I mean, it's a different way of parenting, I guess, also where you whether you see whether they can they fall? And if they fall, then you're there to pick them up if they need help. Or There's another way of, you know, saying, hey. Listen. You can't do it. Just sit down and wait. And you do everything. And then what if when you're gone? So what happens to the profession? So it's it's also, like, building that whole professional and and raising the bar for the profession as well, like, where we become advocates for our communities, advocates as citizens. I mean, you know, recently, I've been lucky enough that, you know, AI Orange County and AI California efforts supporting climate change here in my city.

F I've been an active voice and kinda put architects out there as arc architects being stewards of the built environment. Previously, we were looked at these people who just spend, spend, spend, spend. You know, here's the budget. Oh, yeah. Let's let's see if we can shoot it to double it. I mean, that's the kind of public perception, whereas we have a whole set of ethics that we have to abide by. We have to look after the environment. We have to do this.

F There's all these things that we have to abide by to get our license and registration and even to do our, you know, standard stuff. So it's it's it's that bar that we have to raise in architecture, which I think is more important, than anything else that we do. Because, you know, if this profession is going to survive and is the bar is raised, then buildings are built better. Because we spend 90% of our time inside a building or with relationship to a building. So if you don't design those spaces better and they're not done in a in a in a, you know, efficient, sustainable way where it improves life and the way we read things. Human race will likely, like, goes down. I mean, look at any ancient city. The first thing we do is we go and see the ancient buildings.

F We see the ancient ruins. Why? We wanna see how they lived, what they did. So architecture plays a big role in our human society. I mean, doctors and lawyers might disagree, but you had to go and read the books and understand all of that. Here is just, you know, quick fix where you go and see the buildings. But, you know, we had to raise the bar, and I feel like the more voices are heard and the more, views are looked at and and and we are exposed to, the better the result will be.

B Before we get into our closing thoughts today, we wanted to share some info that we recently learned from the team at Arc IT.

A Our friends at Arc IT are helping architecture firms with their technology solutions, including fighting back against ransomware and cybersecurity attacks. They recently told us about 1 San Francisco based design firm they help who had 3 ransomware attacks in a span of 6 months. Their latest hit took their generic IT provider over 7 days to recover the data.

B Yikes. Imagine not having access to your project data for over 7 days. For a midsized firm of 40 people, that's a lot of people not having the ability to do work on their projects.

A Originally, the IT provider tried to recover all of their files at once. This took them a very long time and resulted in multiple errors and restarts. Once Art IT took over, they were able to come up with a precise recovery strategy by asking a simple question. What projects are the most critical projects your team is working on now? The team at Arc IT started the process of recovering these files and had the midsize firm up and running within 4 hours. After that, Arc IT was able to slowly recover the rest of their files.

B Because of Arc IT's strategic approach to cybersecurity and IT in general, this award winning design firm has not experienced any major security threats or downtime events since. Arc IT has been their trusted partner for over 3 years.

A Arc IT is offering a free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment to help you determine how secure your business is. During the assessment, ARC IT will help you identify your top three highest risk areas in your business.

B Speaking of risks, Arc IT is also sharing some helpful tips with practice disrupted listeners that you can implement tomorrow to ensure your business is secure from cybersecurity threats.

A Their latest tip is to use complex passwords of 12 characters, letters, numbers caps and symbols

B tune in next week to hear the next tip from Arc IT to take your security solutions further contact arcit@www.getarkit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions for your design firm.

A This was an episode that we had been promising to our listeners, I think, as soon as the first Asian American architect diversity conversation came out because I knew we were missing the broader definition, of what it means to be Asian American. So I was happy to get these 3 on to talk about their various different perspectives, especially from from a Southeast Asian point of view.

B Yeah. What stood out to me was that I mean, while they did talk about identity and, definitely talked about diversity, they also really focused on architecture. And I I was impressed that there was so much thought around actual architecture, which we rarely talk about. And, some of these individuals are climate leaders, and they are very active on driving sustainability through architecture. Climate action in their work. Interesting because all all of well, all all I'll I'll climate action in their work.

A Interesting because all all of well, granted, I think everybody that we ultimately bring on our podcast is is very engaged in the profession in a way, and that's why that's why we've heard about them or that's why somebody's kind of referred us to them. But it's just interesting seeing how few Southeast Asian architects there are in their profession and the kind of that that pressure that, you know, if that they are setting the example for what it means to work with all kind of Southeast Asian architects.

B When I moved away from Virginia and North Carolina, I went to California and I was out in San Francisco, it was really clear to me that the environment that I had grown up in had been pretty much, you know, dominated by a majority group. And only when I got to the Bay Area did I start realizing,

A no.

B Actually, in DC too, I have to take that back. When I lived in DC, there was a lot of diversity there. And, but when I got to the Bay Area, I think it it just expanded the realization for me of how much work I needed to do to, you know, learn about things that I hadn't been exposed to growing up. And so these conversations have been very important for me personally. I feel like every every single one, I'm learning something new, and I so appreciate each person that comes on these episodes and the fact that they trust us to share their story. It means a lot to me personally, because I feel like through these conversations, we're helping other individuals learn how to better prepare and participate in conversations that are meaningful that will allow for, broader diversity and growth in the profession.

A I I have to leave you with anything else outside of this diversity conversation is consider changing your sick days to wellness days. And I think that gives your employees permission to then actually take those take the like, not necessarily even have to use vacation days to take those mail those, like, really mess needed and helpful self care days.

B Yeah. I, a 100% agree.

A Thanks for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

B Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

A Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. You can find all of our past episodes by visiting practice of architecture.com backslash podcast.

B You can also get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of a r c

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