Architect, And: Leslie Sydnor on Shifting from Practice to Design Management

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today I'm joined by Leslie Seidnor, an architect and design manager whose career has taken her from growing up and around New York construction sites to drafting classes in high school, to finding her path at Yale and ucla. In our conversation, Leslie opens up about the early influences that shaped her, what it's like to navigate architecture as one of the only few hundred black women licensed in the US and how mentorship and networks shaped her journey.

B We also talk about what it means.

A To shift from traditional practice into design management, the tension architects feel around the roles we've given up, and why advocating for yourself and your values is critical in this profession. Along the way, Leslie shares candid reflections on working in corporate and small firms, finding supportive environments, and the lessons she now passes on to students about building careers with intention.

B Hi, Leslie. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. I'm so great to have you on the show.

C I am really thrilled to be here. Thanks for pestering me for as long as you have.

B Pestering you only because I wanted you on the show and.

A It'S ever since I first met you.

C I appreciate that.

B Leslie, let's start with a simple question. Why did you want to be an architect in the first place?

C So, funny thing, so when I was a kid of 70s 80s New York, New York is always under construction. But when I was a little kid, I used to see all this construction. I'm like, I want to be a construction worker. And the general thought was, ha, ha ha, that's cute. You're a girl. I could be a construction worker. Go sit down. My mom loved architecture.

C She worked for the City of New York. She worked for the Department of Housing Preservation and development for about 38 years. And she loved architecture. And on the weekends, you know, when we were running errands or whatever, we'd ride the bus and she'd look, you know, point out this building and that building and just new stuff about building made me look at buildings in a different way. When I got to high school, I went to Bronx High School of Science and everybody has to take drafting, and I was very good at that. I Loved science, I loved art. And there were some guys who worked with my mom who kind of encouraged me and pushed me in the architecture direction, which was fantastic. Actually, when they found out I was taking drafting, they're like, oh, well, she should be.

C She's good at science. She should look at architecture. And started sending me books on architecture and books on drafting. And so there are all these guys who were engineers in architects for a city of New York who had watched me grow up since I was a little kid, and they kind of encouraged me in that direction.

B So where did you end up going to school then? How did you make that decision? I kind of want to ask this for two reasons, and I'm going to be very direct. You're a minority woman of color. So did that play into your decision when you were looking at schools at all too?

C So, funny thing is, so I went to Yale as an undergrad. Yale was not on my radar. My godfather had a partner who was a principal of an elementary school in New Haven, and they, they lived in Bridgeport. And they're like, well, you're going to Yale. And I'm like, what? Yale is not on my radar?

B Not on your radar because of imposter.

C Syndrome or possibly, Possibly, I don't know. I mean, I. Where else did I apply? I applied to like, well, everybody. Bronx Science Safe school was Wesleyan in Connecticut. So everybody applied to Wesleyan. I applied to Carnegie Mellon. I applied to. For engineering.

C I applied a lot of engineering schools like Carnegie Mellon, Boston University. So that was kind of where I was thinking. I was not thinking Ivy League at all. My godfather was like, my dad. And so he's like, no, you're going to Yale. I don't really. I don't want to hear it otherwise. So I applied to Yale, I applied to Yale.

C I got in. So I kind of was like, okay, I guess I'm going to Yale. Which actually turned out to be great because Yale's architecture program is 4 year, not 5. A good liberal arts education. You're not supposed to be pre professional. You're supposed to study all the things. And so you're an architecture major because Most of your 36 classes are in architecture, not because you're doing this incredibly deep dive and, you know, not doing anything else. And so you actually don't even take real studio until junior year.

C There's like a baby studio in sophomore year. But you don't actually get studio. At least when I went. It's different. It might be different now, but you don't even actually get studio space until You're a junior. So it was actually really great because it still allowed me to explore a lot of things because I had this fear of, like, what if I change my mind? And then I'll have to start all over again. But obviously, here we are all these years later. I didn't change my mind.

B And then you ended up coming here to California to grad school.

C Yeah. So I worked for two years. I worked for the city of New York following my mom. I worked for the city of New York for two years. I did design low income housing, which was, I still kind of say my dream job. My first job was my dream job, which is crazy. But after a couple years, I felt like I needed to know more just in terms of how to design, how buildings work. And so I decided to go to grad school.

C I didn't think I know better now, but I didn't think at the time that I would do well someplace that was not urban. And so I was like, okay, well, Los Angeles and Berkeley. So Berkeley's only because Berkeley was next to San Francisco. So I know Berkeley itself is not, you know, a big city, but it was close to San Francisco. So it was like, okay, so UCLA and Berkeley, like. And that was actually the only few places I applied to. Knowing what I know now, I know that I would have done well in other places. So, like, I could have gone to Chicago.

C I probably would have had a great time.

B Chicago is very urban, too.

C Yeah. But I was also, like, I didn't know anybody from Chicago and I just knew it was incredibly cold. And I was like, yeah, right. Well, I don't need that kind of cold. But having been to Chicago, since I do love Chicago, so I could have done well in Chicago, but I didn't know that. I think I probably would have done great at Tulane, in New Orleans. I love New Orleans. But, you know, I was 22 making this decision, 23, so.

C And hadn't traveled enough to know better. So there was UCLA and there was Berkeley and I got into both, but UCLA offered me a full ride. So. You know, who turns down money? Nobody. It's certainly not me. So UCLA is where I landed.

B And you kind of stayed out here.

C Yeah, that was intentional. I thought that I would come out here for three years, do school and go back home, but I really liked. I really liked. I did not stay for the weather. I actually didn't. I mean, I love the weather, don't get me wrong. But I didn't stay for the weather. I actually stayed because I really like the architecture.

C Vibe out here and what I saw versus what I thought of was happening in New York. And I actually did do a brief stint. I graduated during a recession, won't say which one, but I graduated during a recession and basically almost everybody that I knew ended up working for Frank Gehry. And I was like, nah, I don't want to do that. And I had some friends who had worked in film. And so after graduation, my first couple of gigs were working on TV shows and movies, but I didn't know enough people in the industry to like, make a go because, you know, like, you get a gig and then you got to go get your another gig and then you got to go get your next gig. And I just didn't know enough people to like, keep that going. So in the fall, somebody approached me and said, hey, don't you do cad? Because I'm that old that that was a question of whether you did cat or not.

C And I was one of the few people who in my class who actually did cad, actually did CAD as an undergrad at Yale. And I said, yeah. And they're like, you want to come work for us? And I'm like, sure. And so that was the beginning of my architecture career. And I kind of didn't look back, though I do look back at my friends who are still in film with, you know, a little wistfulness, because I love what they're doing. But that's okay. I've had a good career otherwise, so I can't complain.

B This is a little tangent then. Then what were you actually doing in film? Were you using the. Your architecture and design?

C I mean, a little bit. I was doing. I was mainly working in art departments, so. Working, you know, just starting. So didn't get into full production design, but was working for production designers, so mainly working on sets, really chasing down props and chasing down furniture and things like that. So it was fun. It was very fun. It was very, very.

C I have to say, I can't. What I loved about it was that it was very like schedule wise. It was similar to school. So when you're shooting, you're doing 10, 12 hour days, you go like crazy and then you take a break so much, you know, the same as school of like, you know, going like crazy for your. For your project for the term, and then the term is over and you take a break and then you gear up and you go do it again with your next studio. So I really, I really like that part of just like stop and, you know, get really intense and then take a Break, get really intense and then take a break. It was pretty cool. It was fun.

B So tell us a little bit about actually. So you did go into traditional practice?

C I did go into judicial practice, yeah. I mean pretty quickly it was probably, I mean that probably only lasts about six or seven months after graduation. And you know, again the economy was just so bad that it was just white films were not, they weren't doing a whole heck of a lot. So even the friends that I knew who I made, who were established were, you know, having a hard time doing different things. And so this opportunity dropped a microphone. My lab I worked for. The first firm in LA that I worked for was Fields Endeavouraux, which is now Harley Ellis Devereaux. And they were hed, I think hed.

C There were like nine of us at the time, so we were tiny. So I worked there for a while and then I landed in a small firm in Marina Del Rey, which was just phenomenal. The principal of the firm had in his earlier career worked for John Lautner. And so a lot of the things that he learned from Lautner he kind of by osmosis taught us. So we did schools, predominant schools in aviation. And I learned to do a lot with a little, particularly because you're doing schools. So I learned to do, you know, color, doing things with the ceiling, plane materials, things like that. Since you weren't really like, you know, you weren't doing these grand spaces, you were working in existing classroom buildings.

C So that was a really great time. Then I ended up working for actually twice for a small self performing design build firm. We did a lot of industrial, like industrial parks. So I used to know a lot about concrete tilt up. So we did a lot of concrete tilt up. Every time I drive down a couple of the freeways in la, I won't name them. For your listeners who don't know la, I won't name the freeways, but I'll drive down a couple freeways. Like oh look I did there, there's like six buildings I did in that office for park over there.

C I could see from the freeway. So that, that was pretty cool.

B So many concrete tilt up office parks everywhere.

C Yes, yes. But we learned, I mean the principal actually was all about like making them look interesting. So instead of just being like, you know, the straight up wall, we would play with form liner, we would play with color, things like that. So it was interesting. I did a very, very custom house in Vegas which is very interesting. It's actually the only full blown custom house I've ever done. We did Stop. And I think they're stop and goes in Vegas.

C I mean, it did a lot of interesting little things, but it was great because we were working with material suppliers, so we would think of something, talk to the supplier, talk to our subs, and they'd say, oh, well, it should look like this, or you should detail it like that. And so I really got into the nitty gritty of how to put buildings together, which was a great experience. I tried to avoid for a very long time corporate architecture firms, like the big firms, because I thought that I would be swallowed up in a place like that. I thought that, and I still don't. I mean, I don't think I have the personality for it, though. I'm older now, so I probably do. But at the time, I just didn't think that I had the personality for that. I just thought it was going to be like, you know, you got to learn to play golf, and you got to schmooze, you know, the appropriate principles to get on the good projects.

C And so I avoided that as much as possible. But somebody that I met at a small firm was like, oh, come work here. It won't be like that. I was like, okay, I'm gonna trust you. And so I went and worked there, and it was exactly like that. A couple of principals kind of plucked me out of obscurity and put me in their studio and really protected me, which was great. But just looking around, I'm like, yep, this is exactly what I thought it was like, the backstabbing and the schmoozing, and I don't play golf, and I don't want to learn how to play golf. And I feel like Tiger woods wasn't really a thing yet.

C So you didn't even really see black people playing golf anyway. So, you know, I did some cool projects, but it wasn't really the environment for me. So I left. I worked a couple other places. In 2003, I wound up working for a small firm, which at the time was called Chobani Architecture. Chobani Architecture was acquired by NAC Architecture about five or six years after I started. But I would say that that place and Helena Giovanni. If you ask me, like, how did you get to where you are right now? I'm going to say it's Jubani Architecture, and I'm going to say It's Helena Jubani 100%.

C I told her this. She will say, no, I just recognized your talent, which might be true. But I would say that she's like, my. She's not really my first mentor because there were those, the guys that I told you about when I was growing up who encouraged my career. And I'm still very close to one of them right now. But just really in terms of being able to see what was possible as a woman in architecture and a woman of color in architecture, it was my 10 years there at Chobani and NEC.

B I want to fast forward a little bit to where? To your current role. So you're a design manager at Coming Group. What does that fully entail? I mean, I don't think a lot of people hear design manager and can actually describe what a design manager does.

C I like to say that I am the facilitator or the translator between owners. And this is not the same things. And I'll explain why. Owners, users and architects. My. The last 18 or so years of my career has been strictly education. So in terms of education, you have the owner, the big owner O which would be the school district with depending on the size of the school district. And I am currently with Los Angeles Community College District, so huge owner with lots of requirements and layers and expectations.

C And then you have users, which in my case would be the staff and the faculty at LA City College proper. And then so there'll be a project. For example, we have a new administration project, building and construction. And so the architect is handed lots of directives and lots of requirements as to what is expected of a design for LA Community College. You then. And they. And you know, we speak architecture and some of us are. Some of us are better, others in talking to our clients.

C But then you have staff and faculty who just do not for the most part understand this process at all. I have encountered some people in leadership who are phenomenal at it, but there's only a few. And so I basically get information from the users to give to the architect and vice versa. The architect will need something and I can get that something from the owner, from the user group in order to facilitate their design.

B So playing devil's advocate, I feel like sometimes this type of role, like architects complain about all of the kind of territory we've lost over the years. I would argue that this type of role might be one of those things. I feel like architects would think, why do I have to work with Leslie? And why can't I be the one going directly to the owner?

C Yes, I do not disagree with you. It is one of. It's funny that you say that, because when I started in architecture all those years ago, that was the conversation then, like, you know, in School, we learn about the master builder and they do everything and they know everything. And then now, you know, however long later it's been, we've even given up more than when I started. So, yes, playing devil's advocate, why am I. Why, why am I necessary? And why is that given up? I think. I think that this is one of those things that architects actually, at least in my role, I don't think it's something that architects have given up. I think that it is.

C It's the function of a really big bureaucratic beast. And it's so much easier for the owner to have one person to funnel all this information through, because, as you can imagine, I believe. I don't know how many projects we have across. There are nine. So LACCD is the largest community college district in the country. We have nine campuses, I think currently, I think there's like 47 projects in construction right now. And I can't tell you how many projects are in design. So to have on my campus alone, like right now, I have four projects in construction, I have three projects in procurement, I have a project in planning, I have a project in pre planning.

C Those are the big projects, a bunch of small projects to have. In that case, who would be able to talk to and manage all of those things going at once? Our current VP of Administrative services is the person that I deal with most often. She actually did have that role on top of all of her other VP roles when she was at a different college. I can't imagine. We haven't really talked about it. She just said she did it. She's like, I didn't have. I didn't have a design manager.

C Like, I was the design manager. And so. And on top of dealing with all the things she has to deal with as a college administrator, she then also had to be dealing with contractors and architects. Like, I don't think that's tenable. And it's certainly not tenable if you are not really well versed in architecture and in construction. And so in this particular instance, I don't feel like this is a role that we've given up. It's just. It's a function of the bureaucracy per se and how big it is.

B But I think it's an important distinction to make. I mean, I also think it's a role that is a good fit for an architect too. So whether or not we've given it up, you are an architect in the position as well?

C Yes, and I. And I've worked on projects for schools in other districts where the Design manager was not an architect. And it was very painful. They were like, you know, they were engineers or they had come from a construction background. And it was very painful because as an architect, I'm asking for a particular thing. And those design managers would be like, well, why? I'm like, because I need it to get the project done that you're asking me to do. I'm not being difficult. I need this thing.

C Whereas architects will ask me for things and I don't ask them why. Like, I know why they need it. And I wore this hat in another school district where I was actually the bond program manager, but I ended up being the de facto design manager. And I remember pushing a particular architect to advocate for themselves more because the owner was just like, well, can you do this and can you do this and can you do this? And you know how we are. We just like to design, right? Like, we like to design and we like to put buildings together. And it's like, oh, well, you know, it's okay. It's another, you know, scope change, but that's okay. Like, no, it's not okay.

C Stop. Like, tell her you're not going to do this unless you, like, get a fee increase. Because this is ridiculous. Like, this is a whole new thing. Thing that the owner is asking you to do and you're not advocating for yourself to make them understand. Like, this is a lot of extra work that you're asking me to do. And I love that. I'm like one of your primary architects in this small district and I feel like I'm not going to get any more work if I push back.

C But I was like, you know, there are good clients and bad clients and sometimes you have to fire a client and sometimes you have to fire a client if they want. You know, they, you know, it's like layman's term. I asked you to Design me a 3,000 square foot house, but, oh, I changed my mind and now I want a 6,000 square foot house, but I don't want to pay you anymore. That's not the way that works. We are not in the business. We are bad business people. That's one thing I've learned over the course of many years.

B I would more than agree with that. I know that that sentiment. What's interesting to me is at the beginning of the call, you were talking about details and your kind of love of buildings and the city. You find yourself in a very different role now working with architects. Is there anything that you miss from being a part of? Like, from really being A part of the architect team in your current role.

C I just miss, like, being around architects all day. It's what led me to my involvement AI Ala, you know, looking up and seeing drawings everywhere and stopping at somebody else's table and seeing what they're working on or having, you know, younger staff coming over going, I don't know how to, you know, I don't know how to work through this detail or at a certain point, I was kind of director of project management for my firm and actually helping younger staff learn how to navigate, speaking with clients, to give clients what they want, also get the information they needed out of clients. And I just missed that in this role. Yes, I talk to architects a lot, but in my office, there's immediately, there's nine of us. I'm the only architect there, and I'm working with a bunch of construction guys, and there's things that I care about and I'm concerned with, and they're like, why? Like, I don't care about that. I'm like, I know. That's why I'm here, because I'm paid to care about that. You just want to build it.

C I want to build it and make sure it looks good and it works. You just want to get it built. So, yeah, that's what I. That is what I miss. Actually, you alluded to it a little.

B Bit earlier on about kind of being a black woman in architecture and you choosing roles specific to that. Are there any other things that you would like to share about? Share with your audience about what it means to be a black woman leader in this space and either support you wish you had. You talked a little bit about the, you know, the gentleman that kind of encouraged you to go to Yale because that was off your radar, but, you know, support from unusual spaces and places, too.

C So the numbers are better. But I mean, I'm still in of about. I don't know. I think we're up to about 630 black women licensed living black women, licensed architects in this country. Of what are we, 110,000 architects? So 0.0, 0.02%. I am a unicorn. And I will say that if you ask me, I am a unicorn. When I started the licensure journey, and I sidetracked for a number of years, but when I started testing, had I finished in time, I would have been one of the first 100.

C That's insane to me because I'm not that old. I mean, I'm older than younger, but I'm not that old. So to be possibly be one of the first 100 is insane. I'm still one of the first 250. I mean, I. I took a break for a very long time for a number of reasons, most of which having to do with not being supported. And I'm still number 243. I shouldn't be able to count that.

C But we're still in. You know, we're still in a world. We're still in an America, and we're still in a world where it's the first black somebody. I mean, we just had the first black actor to win a role. A role for best dramatic actor at the Emmys in 2025. Why. Why is that? I can name so many actors before this gentleman who should have gotten that award.

B As a past Angeleno, I was, like, sad that the Emmys came and went, and I didn't even realize it, but I'm just gonna say that's a very Angelino kind of statistics to be able to pull out right now. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for that, though.

C Yes, absolutely. So the support. I mean, familiar family support, always a mother who thought I could do anything, my godfather who insisted that I do anything. So that was the early support. But even the guys that my mom worked with were a bunch of, like, older New York Italians and New York Jews who just loved my mother and loved me and supported me and just said, you know, go do this. And there was no. There was nothing about me being a girl, and there's nothing about me being black. They just, you know, I was their little.

C Their little niece by extension, because they loved my mom and said, go do this. And nobody ever talked about the fact that there, you know, I'm sure they knew no black women in architecture. I actually met a black architect the day I graduated from Yale. His daughter was in my college, Harry Simmons, and he asked me to work for him. But I had already knew that I was going to go work for the city of New York, so I turned him down. Which now that I am older, I am sad that I turned him down, because he would have been an amazing mentor. I might have. My career might have gone differently, and I might have had a different thought on success had I had.

C I had. I said yes to him instead of saying no. But for the longest time, he was actually the only black architect I could name, and I was lucky enough to have met him. As I got older, I knew that there were others. Support from strange other places. I mean, there are places that I worked. Like, I worked for a small firm in la and more than half the team was women. And probably 40% were people of color.

C And it was just taken for granted, like, nobody cared. His name was John. John didn't care. John actually said at one point, he said, you know, if I could get away with it, the whole office would be women, because you guys are smarter and you work harder. Which was just such a phenomenal environment to be in that with a guy who just. He. Like, he didn't care. Like, there were.

C I was actually not the only black woman working in the office. There was Asian people and Latinas and Latinx men, and there was a Filipino woman. There were gay folks. Like, it was just like everybody. It was a really great reflection of Los Angeles, and it was just easy. That was a very supportive environment. He encouraged us all to pursue our licenses. We started a study group, and we would go off and sit in the park down next to the beach.

C We were in Marina del Rey, and we'd had flashcards and we'd quiz each other. So that was an incredibly supportive environment versus being in the corporate environment, where it was, like, very obvious. I'm like, yep, not going anywhere here. This is. It is very clear that everybody here, it's all white men who are in positions of power. You know, there were other. You know, there were Latinx people. There were a couple of black people around.

C There were lots of young Asian guys with spiky hair, played loud music and designed all day. But if you looked at the leadership, it was all white men. I'm like, yeah, okay, well, I'm not getting anywhere here. I'm not seen here. I'm not valued here. I gotta go. And then again, winding up at Giovanni Architecture was when Helena founded the firm. There were three people.

C One of Helena is Chinese by way of Brazil. She actually born, she likes to say, made in Taiwan, but raised in Brazil, Sao Paulo. Her partner was. One of her partners was a Latina woman, Mexican woman from la. And again, that was an office where there was, like, every color of the rainbow. And it did not. I don't. It just didn't occur to her to not be supportive of everybody who was working in her office.

C And she just wanted, like, the best and the brightest, and that's who did. Well, that's who succeeded. Did you want to be there? Did you want to do the work? Cool. And she would look at people and go, okay, well, I mean, she. She looked at me and she's like, okay, well, you're. You're very smart, and you, you know, you do well with clients. You Know, she taught me how to run an office. Because at one point we talked about very early on, we're like, okay, she had a succession plan, which has changed a number of times over her career.

C But I think I was like part of initial secession plan. And so for a. For her to look at me and the other person who was a part of that plan was a white guy who was like my first work husband. But for her to just even like, just say, like, yeah, sure, you can, you can do this. Nobody else had done that. Nobody else had done that. So, you know, kudos to people who just look at potential and talent and don't look at anything else. You can be strategic.

C We were. It's actually interesting we were strategic in that office when we were chasing work and we did, again, mainly public schools. If it was in LA County, I would be one of the faces. I would be the one out there with her doing the business development. If it was Orange county or north of la, it was Christopher. And after Christopher, it was a guy named Miguel, who is Colombian but presents Anglo. And so it was very strategic. Like, we chased a project in Santa Clarita.

C Yeah, they don't like me up in Santa Clarita. So I did not go and chase that work. They took Miguel to go chase that work. But if it was like, you know, Rosemead School district, yeah, I could do that all day long. She was very strategic. So I learned a lot about the strategy because the reality is that people still care about that stuff. We know this because look at where we are in the United States right now. People still care about that stuff.

C Very erroneously, but they do. And so in some cases, you just have to have that plan. Like, how do you navigate those spaces and choose not to navigate some of those spaces because you're not going to get anywhere.

B What would your advice to young architects in the field of color then, and how they begin to navigate those spaces and even find those spaces? It seems to me that, like, you inherently felt lucky that you ended up in those places. It feels like you had a lot of people looking out for you. You know, how much of it was you looking out for yourself and figuring out what's next?

C I mean, I think early in my career it was luck, and as I got older, it was strategy. I teach at Cal Poly Pobona. I teach project management at Cal Poly Pobona. And what I tell my students is, find your tribe and keep them close. They will support you in any number of ways. I mean, it's funny, I think my class at UCLA, I think was 52 people. I think I don't remember anymore, but give or take 52 people. I have crossed paths since graduation with many of some of them are actually my architects right now.

C And then I know others of my classmates work for others of my classmates. And so I tell people, I'm like, even if you don't like your classmates, just keep track of them because they could be really helpful.

B It's an incredibly small industry.

C It is, it is. You know, I tell people that all the time. Like, it's such a small industry. It's very, you know, it's very incestuous. And people will remember you and you may encounter them or come, you know, work with them, work for them. They will be your client. You will be their client. But what I tell them, yeah, I just tell them, like, find your tribe and keep them close.

C You will need that support. They'll tell you about jobs. I mean, I've gotten to a point in my career that I don't really have to interview for jobs anymore. For Cumming. I didn't. So I've been with Cumming since 2015. Yeah, 2015. Because I just had my.

C My 10th anniversary a couple weeks ago. I didn't interview for this job. I called somebody that I had worked with and said, I want to make a change. And he said, okay. And I don't know, I think it was like three weeks later, I got an offer. They're like, oh, come work over here. Like, okay, cool. Like, I need an interview for this, not interview for this job.

B That's so lucky. I only say that because, like, my husband has been going through the interview process and I remember being a part of interview processes and it's just. It's like dating.

C It is like dating. Oh, it's absolutely like dating, isn't it? It's absolutely. I tell my students that too, actually. That's the other thing I tell them, is that when you go on the interviews, like, just think of it as a date. But also remember, it works both ways. Yes, they're trying to find out about you, but you also need to find out about them because you're going to speak spend what, 10, if you're lucky, eight, but probably 10, 12 hours a day with these people. Like, you want to know what you're getting yourself into and so don't just sit there. I know that it's like the employer has all the advantages because you really want this job, but you don't really want this job at the expense of your sanity.

C And Your health.

B No, absolutely.

C And your values, of course. And your values. Yes. So you have to ask those questions and you can make the decision that like this does not align with what I'm wanting right now, but I'm going to get something out of it. I'm thinking of a friend who just made the leap from. She's in retail architecture and she spent a few years working for a fashion designer who is just. It was terrible, but she learned a heck of a lot and she put up with it because of what she was learning. And then she was like, okay, I've had enough of your nonsense.

C And then she made the leap and she's super happy right now. And so she didn't have to compromise, like, she didn't ethically, she did not have to make any compromises, but just like a little bit of happiness. She did sacrifice, but she got something out of it. So that was the betterment to the betterment of her career. And so that's why I tell my students is like, really think about that if you can, if you can ask around. I've heard Glassdoor is very useful. You know, go on Glassdoor and see what people have to say. See if somebody you know works there or somebody or one of your friends knows somebody who works there and figure it out because it's going to be your main environment for some period of time.

C So you really need to figure that out and go on that date, the two way date. Don't just let the guy talk to you about all the great things he's doing and then he doesn't ask you a thing and he orders for you and then that's it. Gotta work both ways.

B It's true of my network, honestly, with the exception of my move to tech, I didn't have to really interview for any of my jobs. But past my first job and it was all really because of honestly my AIA network and people who knew of me just being on a committee and saying, oh, I've worked with this girl, she's looking for new work who has an opening.

C I didn't, I think I didn't learn that early enough.

B Okay, so that lesson might be one that you would tell younger individuals too. Is there, is there anything else that you wish you knew earlier in your career?

C Honestly, the network thing I think is the huge part. It's really the network thing is meeting people, keeping track, being involved actually, because I don't think. Well, I was involved early on. I was involved in an AI chapter, but it wasn't like regionally it was not close to me. And so I knew lots of people, but nobody in the area that I really wanted to work. And so unlike with you, like, your involvement helped you. My involvement was just like fun. And I learned about the business of architecture and architecture, but I didn't meet anybody that I could like, you know, make a transition with.

B So it's a strategic thing too then?

C Absolutely. I think being. Being flexible is another thing. Just try it. Somebody asks you to do something, try it, because you might be really good at it. It might be something you really like. I have a student who graduated and took a job with Tesla. I don't remember if she was an intern initially, but she took a job with Tesla and she is like killing it now.

C She just got. Won some like, internal awards, just got a promotion. She's absolutely killing it. And I don't. And you know, and it's not building design. Like, she's not doing building design. And I don't, you know, that's not why she went to school. But that was a job that was available.

C So she took the leap and she's having, like, it seems to be that she's having the time of her life. So be flexible and try things. I mean, what was the thing that took you. Now I'm flipping the script here and now you're supposed to be interviewing me. What's the thing. What's the thing that took you. Out of architecture into tech?

B Honestly, it was the company I was hearing a lot about Slack in my sphere. Like, I feel like for a while it was a company that a lot of people, even on the MBA side that I was hearing, because I. Cause I went back to school and got my MBA and my mpa. So I was hearing a lot of my colleagues talk about this amazing company and there are a few companies that I always just keep my eye on. And I saw an opportunity and I went for it. And I. I'm so glad I. I did.

B So that's. I mean, ultimately that's how I made the jump. And it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily that I was kind of unhappy at my current job. So this is another lesson that I always tell people. It was, you know, if you, if you don't have your eyes open to a potential of what could possibly be next or even like me, companies that I dream, companies that I, you know, you may want to work with and you have your head down and you're in the grind, then you might miss an opportunity. So I always keep my head up that way. So if somebody wants, is interested in pursuing a role like you in design and design management, what does that path look like and what do you tell students or young professionals or even mid career professionals?

C So my exact path here was that I spent a year, yeah, about a year on a job site on one of our projects. It was just, it was a very difficult project. It was a difficult site and a difficult contractor. And the client asked for an architect to be on site every day. So instead of going to the office, I showed up on the construction site every day. So back to my, my 8 year old self wanting to be a contractor. I was getting to go to a job site every day wearing construction boots and a hard hat and jeans because I'd rather wear jeans than anything else, at least I did at the time. And go out, you know, we'd have, there'd be a detail, oh, this isn't going to work, come look at it.

C And I would be out there solving that problem in real time with the owner and with the contractor. And so that kind of lit the fire into me of like, I don't think that I want to be in firm management, which is where I was anymore. I want to be building buildings. Like, I felt like I had gotten away from building buildings and so back to the full circle conversation, back to networks and things. I went to see a potential client for a project that we were interested in doing. The person that I went to see, who was the bond program manager at the time, I had actually known when he was an inspector, a job site construction inspector, he was managing the program. And so I go there and I do the pitch like, oh, we'd love to do this project, blah, blah, blah. And after my spiel he's like, that's why you're here.

C And I was like, yeah, why'd you think I was here? He goes, oh, I've been looking for you. I was like, I've been in LA the whole time. He goes, well, I lost track of you. I've been looking for you. I've got a $85 million student services building I want you to help me build. And I was like, yes, please. Yeah, when do I start? So it took about a year, but that's how I leapt from practice to that. I worked for him for a couple of years.

C And you know, again that it wasn't the design, it wasn't the stated role. But yeah, I ended up being the design manager again because I was helping the architect, like coordinate programming buildings, you know, new buildings that we were doing. I was Reviewing drawings and so any opportunity you have to work for. I mean, I. I don't know because I've never tried. I don't know that firm like clients directly hire a design manager. I know they must, but I haven't seen that role. So, you know, you can look out for that or you can engage with firm with construction.

C Well, I mean, Cumming does a lot of things, but Cumming, you know, cost management was our initial bread and. But butter. I think project management is now our biggest. The biggest piece of our pie. But within project management is design management. So if you can manage a project, if you're an architect and you can manage a project and you know how to manage a project, you know how to manage design and so engage with project management firms. Also design builders. I think one of the last actually, I think one of the last interviews I had actually was for a contractor who was a design build contractor.

C And they have design managers. So design build firms have design managers. So those are kind of the two places that I can think of as design build contractors. Just throwing them out. The ones that I know of, like locally. McCarthy. I'm working with design managers now. I think Turner has design managers.

C There are quite a few firms out there. If they do. They do design build, they will have design managers.

B So I identify as an introverted leader. And I don't know if you self.

C Identify as that 120%. Yes.

B So if we're talking about networking, then. And how do you go about doing that as the introvert that you are?

C And it's funny you say that because I feel like I did not have a good start in my networking life and again, feel like I always. I don't have regrets about where I am, but I always wonder where I could be if I had not been such an introvert. Because the thought of, like going into a room and having to, like, introduce myself and have, you know, be on, I think that plays into imposter syndrome. Because why would you possibly want to talk to me? I mean, I felt that way when I was younger. I don't feel that way anymore. And I now, I just fake it. I'm really good at faking it. I mean, I can't believe that I was actually like president of AIA Los Angeles as a complete introvert and just having to be everywhere and representing and really just rather being home at that time.

C But I think you have to have confidence in the fact that you actually do have something to say. I can't say I want it to be politically correct and Say everybody's interesting, everybody is not interesting. But I think you learn to listen and you look for people want to share and you have things to share, right? And so you go into that room and you give that person an opportunity to share and hopefully they're not a complete bore and give you an opportunity to share and then you share and then there's a dialogue and. And it's not quite so much like just being on and networking with a capital N at this point in leadership. Like I kind of. I feel like I go in and I have a task at hand and I go in and I do that task and then I kind of recede in the background and observe and if there's an opportunity to jump into a situation, I will. But I don't necessarily have to. I think it's also good to travel with when possible is travel with a team and you can tag team.

C It's something that I tried to do in my time in leadership at AIA was to a good president has a team that they rely on and the president makes ultimately makes the decision but he or she has feedback from other people as opposed to I alone can solve it. Who do we know who's like that? And so if you have a good team at the you don't have to expend all of your energy being on you can rely on the people around you to kind of support you in order for you to do what you need to do.

A Hi Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all the of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.