Season 6 Launch with Getting Back Into Place

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Welcome to season 6 of Practice Disrupted and episode 101. I can't believe we are here.

A Oh my gosh. Yes. And happy new year, everyone. We're so glad to have you back. We took a little break over the winter, but we are back with new episodes and new content that we're excited to share with you. And when we were thinking about who to invite on to help us open up the season, we couldn't think of a better person to join us than Shawn Joyner, who recently launched his own podcast, Getting Back Into Place.

B Yes. So, Shawn, you may know him as a writer and at SAS based in Los Angeles. He formerly worked as a full time editor and staff writer at Archadex. And his essays and articles typically explore themes spanning history, pop culture, and philosophy and how they connect to architectural discourse and the experience of architecture.

A He's also invested a lot of time writing about topics we love and care about. Last year, he wrote a compelling article on Archonect titled Debunking Architecture's Mythological Work Culture. We'll link to the article in the show notes because it's a great read. So we're gonna jump into the conversation and welcome Sean onto the show. Yeah. Welcome, Sean.

C Thank you, guys. I'm really happy to be here. Really honored to be a part of the part of the show. Can't wait for our chat.

A Yay. We're so excited.

C Congrats on a 100 episodes. That's a huge achievement. Was curious looking back to your very first episode, how it feels to be all the way to a 100, especially someone like myself who's I think I only have 7 episodes so far. But how does how does a 100 feel? And looking forward, what are you anticipating for the future of your podcast?

A Wow. I remember when we were at 7 episodes. I know exactly what episode that was. I would say I don't think I ever imagined we'd reach a 100. I just, like, kept putting my head down. In every episode, we would try to produce something really thoughtful and take it kinda one episode at a time. And then, like, it suddenly added up, which has shocked me. What do you think, Evelyn?

B I remember when we were originally talking to Mark and company at Gable about how many episodes we would try to do in a year, I think you and I were like, how do we come up with enough content to fill the episodes they're asking us to think about producing or recording. And here we are. And I think we've already filled seasons. I mean, 6, 7, and we could easily fill 8 at this point, no shortage of ideas. So it's kind of been interesting to see how it's evolved and the people that we've reached out to be a part of the show, also getting feedback from our listeners. I think that's been the most incredibly rewarding aspect of the podcast running into people who we don't know who came up to us, you know, at the Women's Leadership Summit, just telling us that they've been listening to our podcasts, and then it's been affecting them at their work or, or even making them consider new ways of approaching things within practice. I think I think it's hard, episode 7 or where you are, wherever you are, Sean, to kind of imagine what type of impact you would be having on others and the decisions that they're making about their practice and their careers.

A Yeah. And I also I kinda was thinking like, it feels different and that's something that's like hard to explain. Like when you're early on in the development of a podcast, or even when you have that first spark, you're, like, very hopeful and optimistic and maybe, like, try and figure it out. And 7 in, you're building it and you're trying to figure out what it is. At a 100, you're kinda tired, but still excited because you finally figured something out with how it operates and functions. And so I think I will agree with Evelyn. I'll say that I was really tired and we needed the break over the winter. But also, I was really reenergized by the people who took the time to say, hey, they were listening.

A And every time they do, it shocks me. But I so appreciate it because it just, it means that we should keep going and not stop, I guess.

C Yeah. Yeah.

B To whatever extent we wanna be completely transparent about this, Janine. I think at the end of every year that we've hit, so every 2 seasons, like Janine and I have had like a really serious conversation about, are we going to continue to do this? And we did again.

A And we did it again because it's like a second business. The more it's grown, it requires more and more energy.

C Yeah. Yeah. I think well, both thinking of those conversations and the decision to continue on, what what kind of things do you guys have in mind for for this season, for for this year this year coming up for the podcast? What kind of things you've been thinking about?

B I have a lot of interesting connections that I made. So towards the end of the last year season, I got invited to be a part of the LinkedIn creator accelerator program. But I made a lot of interesting connections there with people in the disabled community, with individuals in tech doing interesting things with AI. So I think I'm interested in furthering the conversations about what we should be learning from outside of practice that then we can also bring back into practice? What is that wider view? Because I feel like so often architects only talk to architects, and that's kind of that limits our ability to identify other opportunities for growth.

A I think this season's leaning into technology. We've covered a lot of topics that we care a lot about, and I feel like we're trying to lean a little bit further into the conversation on technology and how it relates to some of the workplace trends that we set up in prior seasons. So, like, the culture of architecture, but now taking a little bit further into Evelyn's actual expertise, which is technology in the world of how to enhance what you're doing through tools that support that work. And we're gonna invite some more amazing, talented architects on the show who are gonna keep our conversation also grounded in the practice of architecture so that we're hearing all sides of the conversation.

C Very cool. And I do think a lot of people are thinking about their future within architecture. And I'm I'm curious what you guys think are some of the core areas we should be thinking about in terms of the profession in 2023. For example, I know there are considerations about what our economic future looks like or what the new kind of workplace might look like, specifically hybrid work and best practices and being in and out of the office. What do you think about some of the things architects and professionals within our industry are should be thinking about in 2023?

A It's interesting because in 2022, we started talking about the r word recession. And out of the gate, Evelyn and I had completely different perspectives on it because, of course, she sits in the tech world, and my experience was trying to enter the profession in, like, one of the worst recessions ever. So it was interesting having that initial conversation and realizing, like, we stood in different places on it. And then also fast forward to January when we're hearing almost on a weekly basis about another technology company that's laying off 10% of their staff. So, you know, there is a reality to the economic turn that we're experiencing right now.

B Yeah. Has that changed your mind at all? Just kidding. Well, you don't have to answer that. But the reality, my very close reality, is that Salesforce was one of those firms that laid off 10% of their workforce. Microsoft just announced this week that they're laying off a big chunk of their workforce. And if you follow tech crunch at all, tech since June of last year, they've tallied up over 200 1,000 employees that have been laid off or their jobs were let go of since that time. So usually, it's been interesting to see because usually the architects like to to say that they're the canary in the coal mine, right, in terms of like, when the next dip is coming. But I've been talking to several executive directors and AIA leadership.

B And even with the slight downturn in the billing index, and I actually send out a a survey on LinkedIn, architects are still pretty positive about the outlook for next year. So it's having lived through company and just finally coming out of that fog that persists from a major layoff. It's just kind of been interesting to see where the heads of my fellow architectural professions are at the moment.

A Yeah. I didn't disagree with you that a recession would be coming. It was more that I felt like my years in my career when I was in the great recession experiencing that, like, changed me in so many ways. And so I guess ever since then, I've been preparing for the next recession, so it doesn't freak me out at the moment. I think, obviously, that layoff is impacting tech, and So I'm watching that. I I'm seeing that impact firms whose clients relate to the Bay Area or to tech in some way in terms of project delivery. But where I'm really watching is actually in Washington DC and in Congress because I think that is gonna have a far wider reaching impact across market sectors from a marketing standpoint than just isolated tech alone. And so I think I am anticipating a dip, but I think the reality is recessions are cyclical.

A And if you weren't anticipating a dip, then you're not paying attention to how these things roll. Like, you should always be preparing for the dip because it's coming. Yeah.

C Yeah. I think that I think that's a really great point, Janine. I think that there it would be safe to say that there are a group of people who just kind of hope there's not a recession, and I think a lot of that comes from just complete dependency on your employer. So when you say that we should always be planning for a recession or a cyclical, it is something that's just a part of how just how the world unfolds. Someone's listening and and and is wondering, how how would I even plan for a recession? Even if it's not this year, how do I put myself in a position to not just be fearful? What might some of that planning look like or some of that anticipation look like for someone who wants to think about their future and not be in a position of of total dependency?

A I think that's a great question. Well, I'm thinking about it in 2 ways. There's the individual level, and then there's the firm leadership level. And so at an individual level, I think you need to kinda consider what is worst case scenario, and what is your bottom line for what you feel like tolerance is what you can plan for? So like in worst case scenario, if you get laid off, how would you respond to that scenario? If you need to take a pay cut, have you built up enough reserves to prepare for that? Because sometimes in worst case scenarios, that's often what happens. Or even your time, the time that you're allowed to work sometimes gets reduced in order to cover that cost. So I think people who are planning ahead might be building financial reserves. They might be investing and staying in a firm longer to build that security in their career, or they might be planning to make a move to another firm where they feel like they can feel security and taking that next step and securing a position before they're at risk of losing a job. So there's no need to panic.

A It's just like, what you have right now is just a moment in time, and you should always be thinking about your safety net and your experience. And I've unfortunately experienced this multiple times. And going through the bad part is you will live through it, but it will be painful. So the more you can try to just be real with the realities that this industry, when it gets hit by a recession, it gets hit hard, eventually it's gonna come. From a firm ownership standpoint, I know I'm going on long, but I'll just quickly say similar principles, but you've gotta be thinking about how to create revenue for your firm in the absence of losing projects and clients. And so the best way to do that is to diversify the markets that you're delivering projects in. We learned from the Great Recession that firms that stuck in one market sector were at the greatest risk and especially if that market sector was the one closest to the problem that the recession was relating to in that moment. So picking multiple markets that relate to different aspects of our economy so that when you lose one, you don't lose all of your revenue.

A You can push further into another market sector to offset that work in that moment of need. You can start investing in long term relationships with clients so that you secure those long term, the pipeline for projects. There's a lot of planning you can do around that versus what we hate. And Evelyn and I talk about all the time is trying to not be reactionary and wait till the last minute.

C That's really good. That's really good.

B Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that I learned, especially coming out of the layoffs that happened at Salesforce is that you can you can only control what you can control, ultimately. So as an individual, I kind of made a commitment at that moment to make sure that I do my best to raise my personal brand, and work every day a little bit towards strengthening my professional network in a variety of different capacities. So so if that should ever happen to me, then I am best prepared to take the next step. An example is, like, there are people that I have so much respect for in Salesforce that find themselves now without a job. It was purely a business decision. It didn't have anything to do with how well they were performing in their role. Ultimately, there was people with over 10 years of tenure at Salesforce that thought they were going to kind of like, this was it for them. They're just going to kind of continue to stay at that company until they retired.

B And and all of those ideas got upended, like with this one broader business decision. So you can only control what you can control. At the same time, I think you have to look at your own from an individual perspective, you have to look at your own career as kind of your own business. I was talking to a young architect this morning about how she was struggling with the time that she chose to left her firm because it was in the middle of a project. And I think, you know, obviously, architects grow because of the work that they do on a project. They grow really attracted to, like, the notion of finishing a project. But if you were a consultant for, like, McKinsey or Deloitte, I think another opportunity a better opportunity came up. Like, they wouldn't think twice before dumping the current project before they moved on to the next one.

B So you have to consider the opportunity cost loss for continuing to work on a project in a firm that you're not happy with versus going to a firm or going to another opportunity that would make you happier even if it means leaving, like, something on the table like that. For firms, I I wanna go a little bit deeper outside of only not diversifying across market sectors. I really struggle when firms talk about they're saying how, like, so diversified they are. And then they list different market sectors. For me, it's also you need to diversify across the services that you're delivering within those market sectors. That means that you can continue to even work with the clients that you have when they aren't building. And I think a lot of architects struggle with that, but a lot of the work of what I did at MK Think on their strategy group was to identify opportunities to expand our services both pre and post wet falls in traditional practice. And in doing so, you actually end up doing more with that client and building more with that client because you do have that long term relationship where they are the first to pick up the phone and call you, not just when they need a building.

B So, you know, you should be having those conversations with your client about where else could you take what you do given the people that you have in your firm? What other services of value could you be providing them that extends beyond the built environment?

A Yeah. And I think that comes down to delivering value. How do you add value in your firm? How do you add value to your client? And when you're consistently doing that and trying to look for the ways that you can do that, I think that's a great way to build and invest towards security and maintaining those relationships.

C Yeah. Yeah. That's that's great. I think some of you guys are sharing on the dexterity and expanding beyond architecture. I think this touches on a recent post that I saw of yours, Evelyn. And you're talking about how an architecture degree provides the opportunities for many different pathways, but that within the architecture kind of community, everyone's always asking about licensure, and and that's always seen as, like, the one true path. And if you deviate from that, you're kind of perhaps maybe an outsider kind of like, oh, why would you do that? Like, I I know when I switched to writing, everyone's like, you spend all this time doing your hours and doing your exams. Like, why would you do that? Why would you throw all that away? And I'm like, well, I'm not really throwing it away.

C I'm just kind of doing it a different way. But I'd love to hear what you guys have to say about those differing pathways and what the architecture community can do to be more inclusive to different modes of pursuing one's career and also how that type of thinking might help a traditional working architect think about how to expand services or what other skills they might have at their disposal from their background as as an architect.

B I think, like, keying on just that last sentence that you said, like how traditional practitioners can take those lessons learned from others and how that they've been able to use their skills and expand into different areas. Similarly, how do we do the same to expand the services that we are providing our client base? That in itself is like a key learning mechanism or why architects should be paying attention. I, and I didn't really understand, like, you know, sunk costs and opportunity costs until like, my business school professor, like, sat me down and said, like, this is it. But it's also this weird mindset that architects have. Right? Because you can either tell somebody, like, what are you doing stepping off from that path? You spent all of your time going towards this one common goal. Or you could ask the question, like, you've spent all this time accumulating all of this knowledge and this expertise. Like, what other opportunities are you seeing given that skill set that you have spent so much time developing? It's a different mindset that creates a different outlook, but it's kind of the same question, right, in a way. And I don't know why we limit ourselves to the first I feel like we're constantly complaining that the public doesn't understand that the value we deliver as architects, but then when people are taking our skills and doing delivering so much more value and actually, you know, getting paid more doing something outside of architecture, we also shun those people and say, like, you're not an architect.

B For me, making those individuals a part of the broader community, I think is important to understand where the opportunities lie for us, and that those individuals will be the biggest advocates to people outside of the architectural profession on our behalf because of the fact that they know so much inherently of what architects do and the value that we bring.

A I really wanna hear what you think, Sean, since you're part of that community. But I guess, you know, my thought just to respond to your question I mean, first of all, it's a great question, and I can't help but just think we've inherited a lot of decisions that were from built on past decades, and that's okay. But as we're continuing to evolve and learn how to work and build our businesses in new and innovative ways, maybe people should just consider the waste that's happening when we ask people to spend the amount of time we do on their education and then studying and taking the exams and just recognizing not everyone's gonna reach that point in their career. And if they do, it doesn't guarantee that they're gonna enjoy the career path they made when they might have been 18. So rather than discarding those people, we should include them and to find ways to incorporate them into our work. It doesn't mean they stamp drawings. It doesn't mean that they do certain tasks, but it does mean that you avoid wasting that talent from leaving the industry by finding places for them inside of your firms and valuing what they do, valuing you, Shawn, as a writer or a creative communicator. You know, a lot of that I experienced for the first time when the recession happened.

A I watched my classmates leave the profession, and they're gone. They're gone. And now I'm listening to firm owners call me and ask me if I know of talented people in the industry that they can hire because they need the people. The boom is happening. They need the talent. The talent's gone. I know that there is a need that in the functionality of a firm, we have a production need that needs to be filled in order to complete the work, but it doesn't mean that everybody is meant to do that work. And there are other areas in your firm that will be enhanced because you recognize someone's talent to fill that role.

C Yeah. I think that's great. I guess I'll say this because the last point you said about that type of work, like the production of work is would not be suited to everyone. Like, that very much was my experience when I graduated school and started working as a designer. Like, there there are a lot of aspects of the work that I loved and I was excited about, and then there were other aspects of the work where I was just sitting there. And and and I'm the type of person where I I'll take one moment and think about, okay. If this particular day is repeated for 5 years, am I prepared to do that? You know? And so early on, I was sitting there doing, like, construction documents, which I absolutely despise doing. And I was just like, I'm not prepared to do this for, like, the next 10 years.

C Like, I just I can't do that. And if this is, like, a essential part of what it means to be an architect, like, I don't know if I could do that. I mean, there's other little aspects to it. I love the predesign phase. I love the client meetings. I love developing the narrative of the projects, or I love talking about the ideas that the firm is trying to or the ethos that the firm is trying to develop for itself and and writing those things and and operating in those domains or submitting for competitions and things like that and and helping design those packages and and frame the all those kinds of things. I was like, I I love that. If I could just do that, then I would love being here.

C So that was part of it. And then I think to the to the note about how we include people who do go on differing paths, I do think that there is a point to acknowledge that you immediately become a lot more valuable and a lot more rare when you're not doing the thing that every single other person I went to architecture is doing. So, like, for me, the the moment I become a writer and work to do it well, instead of there being 100 of other designers that I'm competing with, there's maybe, like, 10 other writers, 5 other writers. And so suddenly, you become more of a commodity, I think, and whether whether it's it's people who do, like, visualization. Some people stop being architects, and they'll do, like, rendering or visualizations really well. There's a lot less people to compete with. So I think that that's one way to think about it. And I think the the point you shared, Evelyn, on sunk costs that there is to me, at least, like and and you guys know me.

C I always kind of been thinking, like, what is the root? Like, what is the kind of, like, ideological problem of something? I do think that we're in a time where there's a lot of universalism. Like, this is the way to do it. And if you differ from this way, you don't understand or you're mistaken somehow because you're not, you know, in line with our doctrine of how things go. And so I do think that it's it's it's useful for a school to say, hey. Look. We're preparing people to become licensed architects, but perhaps their offerings or conditions to teach, like, soft skills or I don't wanna say entrepreneurship. Maybe it's entrepreneurship or I've always thought there should be just just basic class on social dynamics or human nature. Like, the reason I think those would be important is that for the person that does want to differ, does want to experiment with different things, it's not seen so much as, like, act of some kind of sacrilege or something against, you know, against the kind of architectural doctrine.

C But, yeah, I I totally agree with the the notion that it should be celebrated, I think, when people are doing different things who have architectural background. And also stick you you can do that without somehow diminishing the great achievement it is to become licensed and and the work that licensed architects put into to what they do as well. I don't think it's a either or type of thing.

B I agree. And I

A think schools are struggling because they they're dealing with the delay of these systems that are in place and, like, trying to figure out how to suddenly allocate enough time and thought and resources to catch all of those possibilities, I think, is tough. That's a tough challenge. But I do think that there's an opportunity, and I have heard from some of my contacts, like, at MIT, they were telling me that they're trying to lean into that and trying to respond because they do see students leaving and going in doing alternative things. Now, again, the industry has a need that they need to fill. They need to get more architects into the thoughts around how practices operate and creating space for more people in firms to do diverse things in their careers, I think the same idea applies that we can attract more people to stay in the the industry, that we can find ways to create those pathways for them.

C Totally. Totally. You mentioned this earlier, Evelyn, where you're talking about building your brand and you were talking about devoting more time to that. And I think we hear a lot of talk about students or professionals or just people in general finding their voice. And I was curious to have a discussion of, like, what do we mean by find your voice? Like, what does that mean? What's what's someone's voice and how do you find it, if that makes sense?

B There's an opportunity for everyone to share what makes them unique, kind of when it comes to their different way of thinking or the way they approach a problem differently, or their opinion on on practice, which is kind of what I've been I've been posting to LinkedIn that's been getting the most traction lately. I'm trying to draw a correlation to like how people are searching for jobs in their career these days, as opposed to how I, when I got into architecture, how I was searching for a job and career. So when when I graduated from SCI Arc and I was I had in my head, I wanted to become a licensed architect. When I was looking for my job, I wanted somebody who could guarantee that I would have a licensed architect that I would be working under to sign off on my IDP or my, you know, now AXP hours. I wanted time to go take the test, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I think that in a very smart way, that even the individuals coming out of school right now, they're looking at the values within the companies and seeing if it matches up and aligns to their own personal value. So I think when you talk about finding your voice, I think it's really the younger generations are doing so much sharing about kind of what they're passionate about in a very social way. And I think it's kind of being as authentic as you can to that and knowing that you will be much happier building your career following that passion.

B And for some people, it requires, for me, building my personal brand has helped me find my voice like, and if I didn't put that idea out there and get the feedback that I've gotten from people, whether it is sometimes means often critical, sometimes positively reinforced. But if I didn't get people like asking me those questions, then I would have taken me a lot longer to figure out like, what is my opinion on those things and where it lands. So for me, personally, putting myself out there actually helps me helps inform my broader voice in the profession. And then, you know, hopefully, through platforms like the podcast, then we find other people that are like minded and think like us. I don't know if that is an answer to your question at all.

C I actually think that that's actually a very interesting way to approach it because it's almost like identifying and developing your your own ethic in in a sense. Like, who who am I? What's important to me? And as I engage in these different these different environments, that becomes more clear so that you do have some kind of framework to measure things. Because I I mean, I think I definitely find myself in situations like, you know, what am I doing here? Like, okay. Yes. I was on this path to be licensed, but I think the way you approached it was very creative. The follow-up to that question is if you think it's essential for everyone to build their personal brand. So I'm curious if if there's a case to be made for spending less time online, like, posting less, living a quieter life, not being so caught up in all the happenings, all the news, and all the bustle of online chatter. What would you say to that? Is there a case to be made for that, or should everyone really be thinking about building their personal brand? Or perhaps should we expand what we mean by that, by building one personal

B brand? My viewpoint would be, like, I think we should expand what we mean by building a personal brand. The example I gave was very personal to me. Like, part of my journey was putting my voice out there to get that reinforcement or that criticism or that dialogue going that may be super uncomfortable for others to do. But, like, I was just talking to somebody in the practice of architecture community, and they were talking about how they it's a little bit out of context, but she was talking about how she crochets. But I think I feel like there's a lot of people that do other things. Janine and I have a friend that makes her own clothes, in a way she shares what she does, but that is authentic to who she is as a person. And that fact that she's wearing clothes that she makes, whether or not it gets shared on the Internet is authentic to who she is. And I think in her own mind, she's figuring out what what is important to her through that experience.

B As long as you are figuring that out on your way, and then you can communicate that when you need to, when people are asking you why I should make you a part of this company, I think that's however you get there. It can be a variety of different ways.

A That's such a good question too. And I've gone through this process to get to this point where I started out and I was doing self promotion to find myself, basically, like, to find where I fit in this career. Like, I stumbled across something that was, like, way back, way back, way back. And I just like, oh, my God, I went into immediate shame spiral because I was like, oh, my gosh, I remember that being such a low moment in my life. And here I am this very younger version of me who's going through a difficult time and I'm watching this going, I know how hard it is for this person in this moment, and she's trying to find her way into this career, into this place in the profession. And she's doing the best with the resources she had at that moment. And it was really hard because I just was, like, I wanted to reach to her from this place where I am now in my career and be like, it's okay. And, like, give her all the things she needed from somebody desperately at that moment in her time in her life, but I can't.

A But every step I took to find my voice and, yes, I'm an external communicator, and I did the same as you guys, which was, like, post on social media and build up that, like, virtual community. It was a process of figuring out who I am and what was important to me and getting more confident in being able to speak. And did I always get it right? No. But I got to a place where I feel like I know who I am. And I finally feel in this moment in my life that I have a place in this profession. And it's not what I thought it would be, but it is pretty great. And I really enjoy what I've created. And so I think people do it for different reasons.

A But for me, it was certainly a process of finding myself, I guess. Yeah.

C Yeah. That's that's great. What would your advice be to someone who wants to develop that for themselves? People who want to develop perhaps a brand or start to be more active in discourse online, what kind of advice might you give a person like that? Or for someone who's saying, hey. Look. That's not for me. I'm not someone who wants to be in the limelight, but I do want to be able to represent myself more clearly to whether it's in interviews or whether it's just to to colleagues or professors or or peers? What would be your your advice? So there's the online engagement side, and then there's just the the personal engagement of just as a professional within architecture.

A Oh, that's good. I got a lot of responses to this. I think you need to be honest with yourself why you're doing it because there's a couple drivers. Like, is it that you are trying to figure something out? Is it that you're trying to research a topic that you really care about and wanna advocate for? Is it because you want attention and, you know, like, you feel invisible and you're looking for that, you know, external validation? Is it because you're trying to make money? Because I see some people doing it from a very sales heavy perspective. Get clear with yourself on your intention, and you might not know at first, but I think that's a very insightful part of this process. Because the closer in this process that I've come to finding out who I am, the more withdrawn I feel in, like, my social media presence, like, I like, I don't feel like I wanna throw myself out there as much as I used to. Because I just I feel secure in who I am now and like I'm I feel like grounded in what I'm doing. But so that need in my life has been met for some reason, and I have new reasons of wanting to put myself out there.

A But I think I always started by just taking risks and doing things that were interesting to me that I wanted to try, either because I thought it was a challenge or I thought it was something that I could learn from. And when you put yourself out there and start taking on different challenges, I think you you start to get pulled into the things where you naturally gravitate towards.

C That's great, Janine. What about you, Evelyn?

B For me, like I said, part of it is just

D part of it is very professional,

B like, the lessons learned from Salesforce and knowing that I can only control what I can control. And this idea that, eventually, I want practice of architecture to be more of a business rather than a side hustle, I think, is kind of the reasons why I can continue to put myself out there in the way that I I do. The other thing, though, is just that I think it's been interesting because I think as Janine pulls back, like, I have been, like, wanting to push forward more. Mostly because people are reaching out saying, thank you. I needed to hear what you had to say, or thank you. I know I'm not alone in this community, or thank you for pushing back. Those are the good ones. I mean, I still get the you're not an architect.

B Why are you speaking to architects?

C Oh, do you? Okay.

B I definitely get both sides of it. But it's all those positive ones that actually want me to keep going and say like, this is what architects bring in terms of value in problem solving and how we think to a more broader scale. And if you you talk about how do we raise the value of architects, I think it's it's by me saying I am an architect, but I have been able to do all of these things. And other architects are capable of doing that too. Like, that's, that's what kind of makes me most excited about putting myself out there. And the way I do, we can sit and complain about the fact that people don't understand our value. Or we can actively kind of in our own little pocket of the universe, try to create the change by instigating the change rather than letting it happen to us.

A Yeah. And I just wanna be clear, like, I also feel a huge responsibility, you know, because of the feedback we've gotten on the podcast privately before starting it and even after starting it. When we say things and help people realize things that they're thinking and clear discussions that they can digest, we're helping to educate the market and to thinking about things differently. And in some cases, we're helping individuals who need to feel supported. And so I take that very seriously now, and I take it as my responsibility to keep putting out really good content that helps support those people.

C Love that. Love that.

A How about for you, Sean?

C I'll talk about my what I'm currently in the process of doing because I very much am a person who I'm a very introverted person, but I also very much have a sense of calling, I guess, you could say, to be a writer specifically to your point that you said, Janine. Like, I take very, very seriously the type of things that I'm writing and the type of things that I'm talking about. They're very important to me. For for instance, when I when I'm writing an essay, I my goal is I'm trying to write something in my mind that would be, like, normal assigned reading on a syllabus or something in an architecture score or, like, part of that would be something that would be, like, read in schools, like, in 10 years from now or by practitioners 10 years from now. And I know that that's a tall order. Like, I'm not I don't think that I achieved that with everything that I write. But because the writers that I read or the essays that I read or if I read something by, like, you know, James Baldwin, obviously, he's talking about something of of way greater weight, but there's an impact that him as a as an essayist had on how people thought about things. He made sense of things.

C And so for me, finding my voice, I think, is was part of it is about finding my voice, but it has really came from a place of what is my contribution to society or to culture or to my community, and what are my inclinations and my aptitudes that best position me to contribute to my community. And so for me, my community is not just, like, my neighbors here at my house per se, but it's the community that I am mostly a part of. And so that's arc that's been architecture for for so many years. And so that's how I've always thought thought about that. And then, obviously, I have aspirations to go beyond just architecture, but this is where I'm positioned, and and there's just a strong sense of service. And so for me, writing an essay, for instance, like, the the the one you guys mentioned, the debunking architecture's mythological work culture. For me being a part of that and, like, being, you know, when I was a young person, like, crying in the car on the way to work because, you know, my work culture was just I felt trapped, and it was just such a place that, like, I, you know, didn't know what to do. Thinking back on those things, and, obviously, as a writer, it's like I'm always reflecting on things for many years.

C So So when I wrote that, it's like, oh, I've been thinking about this for a very long time, and everyone's talking about this. And for me, I'm like, I think that we need terms to latch on to the things that we're trying to make sense of. We need something to at least provide some perspective that captures what people are trying to point to. So, like, that's what I felt like my goal was in writing that piece of, like, can I provide something that would be useful to people that will be something that people can build on, that people can interact with, that people can critique and correct or agree with even, but is there something that I can give not necessarily, like, my opinion? Like, a lot of my pieces, I try not to be dichotomous or try to be like, hey. This whole thing is bad, and do this right thing that I'm telling you to do. But it's more like, hey. This phenomenon is occurring. Let's try to understand this.

C And I don't know what that means, but perhaps with this better understanding of it, we can move forward in discussion and have a clearer sense of what we're talking about.

A I just wanna tell you, I really love that article. And what I loved about it most was that you did such a thorough job of building the history in a way that was super clear of why we're where we are and then addressing it, like, in like you said, putting language on it that talked about the realities, the negative realities that people experience in a very relatable way. And I actually have forwarded that article on to people because I think it just if anyone's trying to change someone's perspective, it does such a good job of bridging between the culture that was praised to the people that are experiencing it in a negative way. And so I agree, Sean. I think, like, you I can tell you take your work super seriously, and you do a really good job building an entire thought process around it, not just, like, a half baked article that explains, like, hey, this thing was going on. I was like, no. We're gonna get in the weeds, and we're gonna talk about this.

C I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Yeah. I think that's the the goal, you know, and I'm always trying to get better at doing that. I think, you know, whether I'm talking to students or just just colleagues, always trying to consider you know, let's let's like, if we take the work culture thing, like, the the biggest critique from more traditionally minded people. I don't like saying older because I don't think it's fair to just say all older people having this this traditional mindset. But I think the main critique from traditionally minded people is, well, like, you have to work hard. Like, for me, I'm like, how can I take that person seriously and really seriously address what it is that they believe and, quote, unquote, debunk that? And then how can I basically win that person's heart and mind and not just say, hear this, you know, whatever name that everyone, like, to today is a lot of ad hominem arg arguments and a lot of straw man? I don't really see a lot of people.

C It's always a name calling thing or something about the person that's bad, and that's somehow supposed to make a point and change everyone's mind and not make that person just just be more irritated with you, or people will exaggerate an argument or exaggerate a position and say, see, you're saying work hard. Like, you're you're you're you believe in abuse and you believe in and it's like, well, no. I think that person just, like, is not understanding what you're you're saying. And so for me, I'm like, okay. So how can I what's the task here or the attempt? Mhmm. And so for me, a lot of my writing, I feel I see as attempts at something, and then you you kinda let let the public have some discourse about it.

A Yeah. And I I know, Evelyn, we started out this was like a hobby project, but, like, I very genuinely hope that at some point in the process of this work that we are building, eventually gonna have some kind of content that lands in a pro proact class. I mean, I love hanging out with pro practice teachers and people who think about operations and for management and all kinds of things. And so I hope that eventually where we're heading is a place where we're helping to set some foundation for new ways of practice that will be educating future architects.

C That'd be awesome. That'd be great.

A Just a reach goal.

C I was just having a conversation, with someone yesterday, and she was saying how the kind of jury setup that she's never experienced that in her 30 year career, like an actual moment in her professional practice where she gets up and presents her work and, like, a bunch of people are just, like, picking it apart. And it was basically making the point that why doesn't a professional practice class teach, like, more soft skills or how to navigate a network or I was gonna say people should, like, study, like, political maneuvering and things like that. Like, I don't want it to sound so Machiavellian, but, like, I do think there is a degree of, like, naivete sometimes when people don't want to accept that. Like, look, you have to appeal to someone's self interest and yours and just be upfront about that. Like, hey. Look. Like, I I wanna help you out. Like, I'm looking for this too.

C Maybe it's not in so many terms, but I do think that there are discussions like that that can be helpful. That's not just, hey, how do you do a profit sheet? But it's like, if you don't even have the opportunity or a project or how to even talk to people or navigate different personalities, you're not gonna have a profit sheet to to do it to do anything with. You know?

B Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's been a lot of conversation about where does that fall within the architecture curriculum. And it's like, so clear to Janine and I.

A Oh, I know.

B Expand practice management, move beyond teaching the architects handbook chapter by chapter to your class. So yeah.

C Yeah. That that'd be great. And that'd be great.

A Yeah. And by the way, I do have some pro prac professors out there that I really wanna bring on the show because they're doing it in new and innovative ways that deserves recognition.

C Yeah. I heard I heard, I think it was the episode you guys did with Andrew Daley and the professor at RISD, but they're they were talking about, like, I think it was a new kind of proprac class at RISD that tackled, like, how how to do, like, portfolio. And I don't really remember. I got well, I have to go I think it was maybe episode 84. Was ever the one whatever the episode was about unionization? Yeah. Educate do a bunch of education on unionization. There was a a big bid in there about professional practice class that was along these lines.

A It was Jess Myers. He's at RISD. And, oh my gosh, wealth of knowledge.

C Yeah. I was listening to that. I was like, man, like, I need a I need to connect and

A yeah. You too. Actually, I do feel like you both the 2 of you, like, could have a history of architecture course that would be really impactful.

C Yeah. Well, I wanted to get a I would just wanted to get a reading list for myself to educate myself a bit. I was like, I'm I'm learning a lot. I was learning a lot, so listening to them.

B Usually, in our season one openers, we bring somebody on to kind of interview Jeanine and I. And we've invited you into the discussion as well. But let's talk about you and your voice and the reason why you started your new podcast. So, yeah, why did you, after all these years of writing, start a podcast?

C Yeah. So the podcast is kind of me figuring out if I want to be have a podcast. Like, so for me, my current endeavor with my podcast is an experiment, is what I've been calling it. So for a few years now, I've had, like, several people say, you should do a podcast. You should do a podcast. Like, do a podcast. And I've always chose not to because I've always just done the thinking in my head. I'm just like, I don't wanna edit anything.

C I don't want to take away from my writing. That's less time. You know, it was it was always all of these things, and it was and I was like, am I prepared for the consistency that is going to take to do a podcast? And so for years, I was just like well, not years, for about the 2 years that people suggested it to me. I just was like, I just I don't think I'm prepared to do that. And because I started it, what, in in November last year, I am always having a lot of very interesting conversations with people. And for whatever reason, I don't really know. I mean, this is how I usually go about things. I was just like, look.

C I really like these conversations. A lot of times, I'll find myself in situations whether I'm at work or even at, like, place like Woodbury, where I'm talking and then, like, a kind of it's not just I'm not trying to give myself credit. Like, everyone just wants to listen to me speak, but I'll be talking to another person or or we'll start a discussion, and then those a kind of crowd will form. And then it'll be a deeper discussion with more people, and people will ask questions. This is a big thing. And then I was I was just seeing this happen. I'm like, look. People are getting value, and it's, like, it's not really about me.

C Like, I feel like, for whatever reason, I'm facilitating this discussion, so let me try the podcast. And I was like, what are the things that I enjoy and I enjoy having the conversation? And so for me, I was like, let me do 10 episodes. That'll be like a season for me. And this will allow me to determine if I have the stomach to continue to do this because or if I wanna invest more in this. Because if I did continue with that, I would have some kind of producer or something. Because right now, it's very, very low tech. I mean, I just have an intro. There's a cut in the end of GarageBand.

C I just put the recording and, like, kinda edit a few things, and that's it. And that that's what I just I was like, that's all I'm gonna do for these first ten because I wanna see if I like reaching out to people, preparing for them, having the discussion. And to get deeper into why I did a podcast and to the point I was making earlier is I was thinking, what can I contribute to this discussion that I don't think is happening currently right now? And so I do think that it's a very, like, kind of dynamic thing. Part of it, I think, as a black man in this kind of rooms that I'm in about these this discussion about, you know, race and diversity and things like that. Like, there's a lot of people that I talk to, a lot of discussions that I understand and and interact with, and I don't really see a lot of other podcasters that have that particular experience, this personal experience and position to be able to that even know know the people that I know on a level that where they were gonna go on a podcast with them. And so for me, I feel like, okay. I I'll have the opportunity to do that, to be to be an example. That's the deeper thing about mentorship and things like that, but that was part of it.

C But then also, very much, I'm trying to talk about the notion of place in society and and less so super niche architectural industry, and I'm still figuring out what that is. Like, one of my most popular episodes was the episode I had with a philosopher about philosophy of architecture and phenomenology and ethics and, like, the role of places in society and and how we function as people and just even, like, things like existentialism and things like that. And that was a little bit more of deep conversation. But for me, like, when I talk to a gallerist who has a community gallery, there's someone who's a who's a hotelier that I wanna talk to, who develops restaurants and hotels and creates these experience, but but he's not an architect. He's a developer and owner of these places. I wanna talk to, like, a muralist who does just street murals. That's a way of creating a particular moment in in place for people just in on the in the public realm. And so for me, I feel like, hey.

C There's this opportunity to talk about the architecture in a way that is more, to use an academic term, more phenomenological, more existential. And I think I can contribute to that because I'm trying to find yes. I already find myself coming back into the conversations that I was trying not to have. Like, as I'm having, like, typical architectural conversations, which have been great. So it's not like a critique. It's just more like, okay. Well, I mean, those are cool too. And this is exactly why I'm doing this because I don't believe that I'm just gonna have it all figured out like an episode 1, and, like, it's just gonna be a work of mastery.

C And, you know, I'm gonna you know? Is this a way that I can contribute further? I mean, my contributions to the discourse. If it takes too much away from writing, I'll stop it right away. That's that's my priority. But, yeah, we'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. I've been enjoying it.

A That's really well said.

B I would just say that some of the conversations that, like, you find yourself in that you weren't hoping to find yourself in, I think it it creates that connection between those conversations and the broader reaching conversations that you're you're hoping to have.

C Oh, I see. Yeah. Agreed.

B And that your voice is very valid. So if you're ever questioning your voice, come talk to Janine and I, and we will be your hype squad.

C Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

A Actually, Evelyn and my husband both had to like constantly be like dealing with me after podcast would get aired early on because I'd be like, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

C Oh, really? Oh, well, yeah. Yeah.

A Yeah. But how are you feeling? You're at episode 7, so how are you feeling?

C I I was thinking about this today, and I'm like, look. If I was really gonna do this, I would not want to do something that had to be, like, too frequent where I'm just, like, trying to fill up spaces, like, trying to fill up weeks with an episode. Like, so far, the people that I've interviewed or the people and the people that I will interview are people that I know because I get just very uncomfortable because I and I just over prepare. For someone I don't know, I just, like, obsess with like, I've tried to read every book they did, and it's just, like, impossible to do to try to, like, match that person's level of knowledge in, like, a week or 2 or whatever you have. And so I just can't I have too many things going on to, like, just get that worked up about something. So I've just started off with people that I know and, like, are easy for me to talk to, and there's not that level of, like, uncertainty of what is the exchange gonna be like, or am I gonna, you know, miss a point or whatever. I mean, that that's usually what happens. Like, if I moderate something, the few times that I say yes is just like my wife's always like, she knows what to prepare for, so I'm just surrounded in books and papers and, you know, trying to read everything.

C But, anyway so right now, I feel good about it. But if I was to move forward, I would probably want to do something that for sure had some kind of production support or editing support because I just it's not my skill, not my area. So something of a higher quality that was less frequent, maybe longer, maybe even like a panel setup. This is what I'm doing now with my writing is I'm trying to do, like, 3 or 4 essays a year versus, like, 100, which I did at our connect. Obviously, that was a full time job. And so for me, those 3 or 4 essays are ones that I try to do that are touching on a significant point, whether it's just something that I think is important or that is currently in discussion. So, yeah, if I was to move forward with the podcast, I would wanna do less, and I've pursued this thing with the expectation of, like, not trying to make money at it or, you know, trying to, like, face the realities of, like, I'm a very optimistic person, but I'm optimistic and very much of a realist at the same time in most of the things that I do. So I always accept the fact that, look, I could set out to write this novel, and no one is gonna care about it.

C And it could be horrible and suck, and I spent a year on it and spent money with people editing and helping with me, and it just ended up end up in the trash. And am I prepared to do that? Obviously, that's that's a really dark version of it, but, also, I wanted to succeed. But I always move forward with creative things, accepting, like, I could get to a point where, you know, it's like, hey. That was great, and there's nothing that diminishes anything from what I did. And, like, it was a great moment, and and I learned something about myself and and that. And if I have to move on, I have to move on, and it's all good. Or I could do it, and it's like, oh, man. Like, this whole, like, thing is developing, and now I now I'm making money, and now, like, this is happening.

C And now, like, you know, I can do it full time. Wow. Like, that that could happen too. You know? But I always move forward in the beginning with with the former in mind. So I'm beginning to unite to my 10 episodes. That's my goal, and then I'll stop and reflect. And if I am to continue, it'd probably be, like, once a month or something or with key people, longer conversations, and definitely some production help.

A So it could

C be a little bit little bit higher quality experience for people.

A To your prior question, we were discussing about, like, what should people do if they wanna get their voice out there. I think the most valuable information comes from doing.

C Agree. 100%.

A To just do it. To try it. Like, because you can have this whole thought in your head about how it's gonna be. But just like you said, Sean, like, you had a vision and you found yourself even defaulting to, you know, narratives that feel repetitive or, you know, we do the same. We have these big ambitious thoughts. And then, like, when you go to deliver and you're up against the realities of what it takes to do any really hard goal you set, you learn your limitations and you learn from your blind spots and you learn from your setbacks. And so I'm really excited for you. I think you're an amazing writer, and I'm gonna definitely continue to read what you produce and listen to your podcast to check out, you know, what you develop over the next well, I guess, season 1, and then we'll see where you go from there.

C Yeah. Yeah. But thank thank you, Jean. I I appreciate that. Yeah. Three more episodes to go, and then, yeah, then we'll see. But I I really appreciate the support and encouragement.

B Yeah. Absolutely. So for anyone who is interested in tuning into Sean's new podcast, which is getting back into place, We will be sure to put that link down in the show notes along with the article that Janine keeps referring to, and probably just a link to everything that you've written on title under architizer so they can see the wealth of knowledge that you have already put out in the world. Thank you for coming on and interviewing us.

C Yeah. Thank you, guys. I thought it was a great conversation. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited for everything you both are doing. I actually I actually do often recommend your podcast to the students and to different people.

B Oh, thank you. It's amazing.

C Yeah. Certain key episodes sometimes or even posts I'll reshare, but I'm very excited for what you guys are doing and very much believe in it. And thanks for the invite.

A Yeah. Thank you. And let us know how we can support you in your discovery of your alternative path.

C Will do. Will do.

B Thank you for joining us today, Sean, and tune in next week for the launch of season 6. See you then.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/

D podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is at practice of arch. That's at practice of arch. We love to hear from you. Drop us a note to say hello.

A This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting g ablmedia.com.

D Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.