The Psychology of Architecture

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this Hello, disruptors. Welcome back to another episode of Practice Disrupted. Our next guest comes to the show with a background in architecture and psychology. Aaron Phoebe is a passionate advocate for the power of place to heal, connect, and serve vulnerable populations. And I would even say that this includes architects and the not so wonderful culture that we are known for cultivating in our workplaces. Her work on design's role in combating loneliness has been featured by TEDx, BBC, Psychology Today, where she's actually a frequent contributor, architect South by Southwest, Curved Cara by NPR, MVC, Dallas Fort Worth, and Metropolis Magazine, as well as many others.

A So that's just to name a few. She is a fellow podcast and her podcast shared space, which we will look to in the show notes, explores how architecture and design can help us live connected healthier and happier lives. Erin, welcome to the show.

B Thanks. Thanks so much. I'm excited to be here.

A I feel like this wasn't a very long time in the making, but I feel like ever since we connected, and I think this is a testament again to the power of LinkedIn, that this has been kind of a long time in the making. And in the back of my mind, I was like, I need to bring Aaron on the show.

B I'm excited that you did. Thanks.

A So we tend I mean, obviously, I breezed through a high level version of your bio. Your full bio will be in the show notes, but we like to do a little bit of an icebreaker and ask if there's anything else you want our listeners to know about you that might not otherwise be found very easily.

B Yeah. I don't know. I would say I am potentially the biggest NPR, AKA National Public Radio Nerd, you will ever meet. My husband and I once stumbled across we happen to be staying with friend right next to their studios, and we stumbled across and got invited to go do a tour. And we were both, like, oh my god. We, like, like, hit up the gift store. I mean, yeah, I get NPR things for my wedding, from my friends. So, yeah, any other NPR nerds out there, we're in this together.

A So who's a bigger nerd, you or your husband?

B We're pretty tied. I mean, I probably beat him on most, like how many books you read, how, like, nerdy of the thing, but we I steal one of his shirts that says, like, keep calm and avoid bias on the background because he's in science and now in technology, and we just both come from that. Oh my god. It's so funny. But one of our early dates, I found out that he was like a first author on a peer reviewed journal article. And I was like, that is so attractive. So I might be the bigger nerdier. I recently went trapezing for my birthday, and I try to do something every single birthday that I've never done before.

B And so I flew in a trapeze and I somehow, like, caught like, another person caught me and it was majestic. It was insane. So, yeah, if you want a little known thing that very few people know, I'll give you

A that one. That's an exercise in trust.

B It is. And I felt like it was really timely in my life. I was like, this is all about trusting that it'll be okay. And just like literally leaping into someone else's arms. So it's terrifying, But wonderful.

A Yeah. Okay, speaking of leaping in different paths, and just I think carving out our own unique voices in the industry. So you went and got an architecture degree with a minor in psychology?

B Yeah. So basically, when I was younger, I very young, I was like, I just was born an advocate. And so, originally, I thought, okay. I'm gonna be a lawyer. And then I was like, I'm gonna be a social worker. So I started to go social work route, and I was really fortunate to take a bunch of psychology and sociology, like, college courses when I was still in college. And then when I I went to school really focusing on psychology at Loyola in New Orleans, and when I was there, I discovered what's called environmental psychology, which is essentially the intersection of psychology and architecture. And from there, I just totally fell in love with architecture and with understanding how it impacts how we think, how we feel, how we behave, and how it can serve people.

B And, yeah, applied to architecture schools, and then I dual majored throughout my undergrad and, like, the last semester. My mom had just gotten really sick and, like, they were, like, you're one credit short from getting a double a double degree versus a double major. And I was just, like, no, I don't have it in me. So it's a minor, but it's basically I took constant psychology classes and yeah. And it was it was wonderful. You know, I think that for anyone out there that has people be like, I don't understand that. That doesn't make sense. Wow.

B Aren't you wasting your time? I just think it's, like, such a lesson in trusting your intuition. I would have people, like, at, career fairs make fun of not, playfully, but yeah, they would be like, that's fun. Yeah. They would ask me if I was going to analyze them and I would have to, like, explain, well, you know, the built environment does relate to our print. You know? And so I love that that seems to not be necessary anymore.

A Well, it not being necessary, I think, is a broader commentary on how mental health and well-being is talked about more. Right? It's something that comes up on a more regular basis. And then and then, of course, of architecture, you know, we talk so much more about the diversity of people that we are trying to serve, not only from a demographic standpoint, but from different ways people think to different to how people need certain types of spaces to even feel calm. So I feel like you were an early adopter. So now you're at HKS, and you are the health and well-being design leader. Does that mean you only work on certain projects? Are you working across portfolios? How does that work?

B Great question. Really, in a lot of ways, it's it's about blending a few things. 1 is so okay. Easy answer is it's across many different types of buildings and things that are less of buildings and more of initiatives and less of buildings and more of urban scale, all of it. To me, it's really about, number 1, there's there's a component that is really about, like, listening and engaging with our community members. So I do a lot of community engagement, helping to train and support others as we, like, really try to have dynamic engagements with our stakeholders from, like, a small group all the way to, like, a giant, you know, multiple 100. And I love doing that. It's very messy and rewarding and beautiful and wonderful.

B Because of my background in research, I also look at being able to bring in the research onto the design side. That's something I've done my whole career and be able to, you know, support different design initiatives and inform those as well. And then I just, you know, support a lot of early early pieces of projects and infusing these aspects. To me, when people say, oh, like health, like health care, I'm like, sure. Or like education or like housing or like, you know, stadiums or like because we we all need to be well And every single space is impacting our health in different ways.

A So I feel like that's a large firm capability. It's easier for a firm of its size for a firm like hks, and its size to support somebody like you. So if I am the small firm practitioner, or if I am kind of the medium firm owner, and I'm interested in learning more about this and engaging and using even maybe sharing and leveraging your research, and the projects that I'm designing. Any recommendations on on resources or how to get started?

B Yeah. Yeah. Because honestly, basically, from early, early on, I was writing pieces and doing research around, like, practitioner and research integration. So that really is a deep area of of passion and expertise for me. So, yeah, there's tons of resources. If you are looking so one of the deep dives that I do is around, social connections specifically, have wonderful podcast. I also have a report that is on the HKS website on connecting in real life, the antidote to loneliness. And then I'm working right now with the Foundation For Social Connection on creating a report that pulls together all the expertise across the nation on the built environment and shares that out.

B As far as books and things like that, I think that Esther Sternberg has created some beautiful books on that topic. There's so many. I could, like, send you some afterwards, but there's I I would say that there's a lot of great resources and that they're coming. I also have a psychology day blog. Please check that out. But to me, at its foundational route, it is about understanding how we as humans are wired and understanding the ripples that designing in a way that is either supportive of how we are wired or counteracts how we are wired can create basically positive health or ill health. And I think sometimes we think of like, oh, sick building syndrome. So you have this building, It gives you some sort of mold or toxicity, and then and then you're sick.

B And I'm like, yeah, that exists. That's awful and horrible. But you also have spaces where you just feel lethargic and they're dark and they're sad or you feel disconnected from other people because the spaces that you're in don't give you opportunities to connect. There's lots of different ways. Yeah.

A Yeah. You know, I just feel like there's more terms like neurodivergence, obviously, being thrown around out there, and people don't really understand all of what that entails. And and honestly, I personally wasn't as empathetic to all of those needs until my son was born and he is on the spectrum. He's high functioning, but I didn't understand it until I could begin to see things through his eyes.

B You know, I to me, it's like if health and well-being and, like, what what makes a healthy life is this and then how it overlaps with the built environment is like this huge area. And then I think that there's these really important ways of of thinking about I find it fascinating how we've, like, separated out quote, unquote mental health from which also is, like, different than mental illness, but related from neurodivergence. And I would just say that, like, the ways in which brains work differently is so underappreciated. I think that we somehow have gotten this understanding that there is, like, a norm. Right? There's, like, one norm. That norm is, like, hyper productive. It is basically based off of, in so many ways, like, the reference man. Right? Like, that we all had in our in our books.

B Right? In school and throughout. And that's totally bogus, and it's filled with assumptions that lack a real understanding of our humanity. And I think that what happens is that, like, we gaslight anyone that doesn't fall within that norm to think that, like, they are the problem rather than recognizing that the system we've created is the problem.

A So let's bring this back. I love where this is going. And I know it's a bit out of order, but that's fine. But so let's bring this back to architectural practice. And what is what is the norm and how I feel like unintentionally, we actually make people fit into these boxes, too. We are a self limiting profession, We kinda put ourselves in these in in the box. So let's let's talk about that box and that path and why it might not be as inclusive as we think we are being to allow for these different type ways of thinking.

B Right. And I would love to start with, like, education because I do think that that is where we all get our, like, indoctrination for better or for worse in how we are supposed to be, right, as professionals, as people in the world. Right? We go to school, we go to college thinking, okay, and now this is going to teach me what I need to be. And the memo that we get is that sleep is for the lazy, that hustle and grind is what matters the most, and that if it is not, you know, audaciously beautiful, then you are failing. And that also I will say it is extremely hyper competitive. And I really didn't I I still kind of miss that fact that not everything, not every profession is like that. We are trained to critique first and often and to expect that critique. And I think that, you know, there's there's wonderful aspects of that, but I also think that there are a lot of aspects of that that do not foster creativity.

B Right? Like you look at relationships between rest and play and creativity, and the relationship is extremely strong. You look at sleep deprivation and what it does to mental health, how it spurs, you know, diagnoses of mental illness, how it creates all of these cascades of ill health. And we sort of say, well, if you can't cut it, well, then you can always leave. We don't say like, oh, oh, okay. And I also yeah. I just think so often we're not holding I remember my freshman year. We had this very cool project. I was, like, super excited because it was for a, you know, a hypothetical person that was in a wheelchair.

B And I remember one of my classmates who had this most beautiful design, but I was, like, that does not function at all for a person in a wheelchair. Like, there's no turning radiuses. There's no functioning like, all of it. And I my comments were just completely dismissed. And I think that that's, like, kind of what we do throughout life. It feels like to me is, like, we continue to dismiss that side of empathy, compassion, and caring and serving for the often overlooked realities of the people that we serve in our buildings and instead designed for that reference man who is a man who, you know, is in a suit, who is all of those things, and I just yeah. It's frustrating sometimes. But I think that's the beginning of it.

B And then the question is, okay, and now how does that lead into architecture as a profession? And, yeah, I mean, especially with exams, doing exams, working full time, trying to establish yourself as such a high, bridge to climb or it is a lot of effort, right? A high mountain to climb. And yet we are looking at you know, salaries that are not at the level that you might expect for that amount of work. We are looking at flexibility that tends to be less. We are looking at different aspects that are that are really a struggle. And I think that when we can add back in more humanity that we are able to enjoy and find more meaningful work. Okay. So first, like, and maybe this is hopping back, but defining what neurodiversity means, I think is helpful. I will also just say there's a fabulous book by I think her name's Jared Nuremberg that was recently published that especially addresses neurodiversity in women, although that it also addresses men and there's also wonderful things around that.

B But in general, men have been given the focus. And so a lot of the diagnostic manual focuses on men, like how men present. But neurodiversity includes everything from being on the autism spectrum to ADHD to being highly sensitive. So it's called, like, HSP or highly sensitive people or sometimes it's sensory processing disorder. A lot of, like, one of the things that I've noticed is, like, a lot of this trying to move out of this idea, Even when we call it, like, autism spectrum, it's oftentimes autism spectrum disorder, and you're like, why does it have to be a disorder? I think that's really, like, the point of neurodiversity. It is actually the wonderful variety of how our brains take things in. I am full on HSP, which is highly sensitive person. When I finally read that that existed, which was only a few years ago, I, like, shed tears multiple times reading the first chapter because all of my life, I've basically been told, like, you're just, like, you're not a chill out.

B You're yeah. Yeah. You're so and and that said as a way to bring you back into compliance with normal. Right? You know, when we talk about this word normal, it's such bullshit because norm was originally created basically to mean a statistical norm. So when you look at the distribution, what's falling in the middle? And that was not ever meant to be, and that is good. Right? And somehow over time, it became a measure of what is good. Normal weight, normal height, normal brain function. Right? And all of that was also completely created off of a male standard because it was only men in science.

B It was only male subjects because they were considered more stable than females who have, you know, a cycle. And you think about just, like, how all of those things have trickled in and created this forced norm that does not actually work for the vast majority of people. And I hope that in architecture, we can recognize that because we are creating spaces for people that are outside of that norm because we're creating them for the general public. And we are hopefully embodying those people in in the profession. You think about who is drawn to architecture. There are, like, heavy feelers and sensors and people that have heightened perception. And we need all of the variety to bring in those perspectives and bring that value.

A Well, yes. Absolutely. And whether or not we realize it, I feel like that that varietal way of thinking actually probably exists in our firms and how it shows up because whether or not we allow it to show up or not, it shows up differently. So I think, you know, the follow-up question to it was, yeah, we are designers of physical space, but how do we create the mental space to allow more of these individuals to thrive?

B Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And mental space, I think, you know, honestly, I feel like one of the things that I would love for architecture to embrace more, and I'm sure I'm gonna get a lot of eye rolls, but it's just rest and boredom because the amount of studies that show how good boredom is as a catalyst for creative thought. Right? And architects feel like we are supposed to be innovative and creative and problem solvers. You know, when you create good problem solving innovative solutions, it tends to be when you're having your mind wander. I don't mean scrolling through your phone. Right? But having your mind wander, look at, like, being out in the in nature, going to talks on subjects that you're not an expert on, just basically experiencing the world.

B And when we are so tightly focused on productivity and efficiency, all of that kind of gift of life and gift of creativity is harder. It's sort of like trying to plant on scorched earth.

A So I posted a while ago. I mean, we both post a lot on LinkedIn, admittedly. But if somebody made the comment to me about, like, in my head, I was rereading the comment back to myself, they've essentially said, but we've squeezed so much creativity out of everything that we do. But when I think about that, that's a very singular way of operating. So in order to be bored, to take space, to encourage sleep, you know, what what is the mindset that we have to create to to let that actually happen?

B Yeah. It is a total break of paradigm of, like, conditioning. So, also, I just wanna, like, counter that person's I mean, sure. Great. We've squeezed a ton of creativity. We've squeezed a lot of life out of architects. Right? And the number of architects that report burnout is obscenely high. I mean, and burnout and creativity, I'm just like, well, what does it like, what does creativity mean? Like, how much have we pushed on certain things that really matter in the world? And, you know, to me, that sounds like that person's pride of, like, are you saying I'm not creative because I'm exhausted? And no one's saying that.

B They're saying that, I don't know. I I just firmly believe like we all deserve a life that is beautiful and is really hard to experience that beauty when you are just worn down all the time. And look, I mean, like, I had over a decade of working more than 80 hours a week. Like, all I did was work and work and work and work and work, And I get it. There were parts of me that were extremely productive and there were parts of me that were extremely ill and people only saw the productive parts and they did not see the cost. And I think that we have a society where we protect people from that cost and we say like, oh, I mean, you made it through. And you're like, yeah. Okay.

B So I'm like, yes. I'm still

A Right. Right. And the back of that is like always at what cost? We made it through, but what did we lose in in the end?

B Yeah. I I have a friend who I remember we went to school together and we were studio partners and we were on this insane project. And I remember coming to her, like, with tears in my eyes and being like, I'm sorry, but is it okay if I get 3 hours of sleep a night? And she was really up like, she like cared about me. And so she was like, okay. But she was only getting 1 hour of sleep at night for for months. So after we graduated and she was insanely top of the class after we graduated, she went to a wonderful program, she did all this stuff. She got extremely, extremely ill and had to be, you know, like, had to go through many many many years of healing. And I just think, is that what success is? Yeah, she made it through.

B I mean, she's now left architecture, and I think what a shame, what a creative, smart, intuitive, hardworking person that was, like, I'm not cut out for the unendingness of this.

A But it really is a shift in paradigm. Right against everything that we were taught in school. So what are your top mind set shifts that we should be considering that could really actually begin to move the needle and in practice and and in culture, and and I would hope that it ultimately results in better work.

B Well, I mean, you know, it's interesting. I was incredibly burnt out, had a lot of, you know, super intense personal life things on top of, like a decade of incredibly intense work things and ended up taking a sabbatical. And, you know, I of course got pushback for that, but I also recognize that like, it was only a decision that I could make and I had to make it and that there wasn't another option that was better. And so in that, what I did was I created my own kind of program of healing, and it had I had a daily checklist because I am that type, but the checklist included meditating every day, moving my body every day, resting in some way every day, playing in some way every day, and connecting. And for me, if I had done all of those things or at least tried to do parts of them, that was, like, a successful day. And so I remember, like, for me, it was about it was about taking these to me, it's like these micro steps that you take, and you can do this. You don't need to take a sabbatical. I'm not saying that at all.

B There are these micro steps that you can take in starting to create new patterns, new habits, where you say, okay, I'm going to set aside 10 minutes every day to meditate and, like, hold that. Or I recognize that my and, like, I think I've had so many people tell me, but I'm not good at meditating. And I'm just like, oh my god. Of course, you're not. No one is good. You're not supposed to be good at meditating. What do you mean? It's about sitting and realizing how much comes up and just repeatedly trying to stay present in the moment. But similarly, like going on walks every day or, you know, doing those regular habits of, like, mental hygiene that we sort of push to the side to prioritize more time for productivity.

B And I just I think that a lot of times what we find is if we don't intentionally take breaks, then we find sort of, like, our attention leaking out in ways of scrolling social media or, you know, eating a whole bag of tortilla chips or something. And instead, we can mindfully, like, care for ourselves proactively, find people that we care about and show them love because giving is, you know, even more wonderful than receiving for our mental health. So I also have a piece that I wrote specifically about that, but I think that it's about telling yourself that that's a priority. A few years ago, I realized that all of my priority lists were about all of the things that I was going to achieve. None of them were about me. They weren't about my family. They weren't about whatever. And so I changed that.

B I changed it to where my mental health was a priority. And so if I consistently found that doing something was bad for my mental health, then just find a way to stop doing it if I at all could. And I think that's honestly been revolutionary for me in part just so you forget how much we deemphasize that part of ourselves, which is honestly, like, all of ourselves. At at the end of our lives, if you look at you know, there's a great book called,

A I think

B it's called the good life that is by these Harvard researchers that did these longitudinal studies. And, essentially, at the end of, you know, a 100 years of studying these people and their families and their families' families, the bottom line is it is about the connections that we have in our lives, the relationships that we have of our lives. And that's what we remember. That's what we regret. That's what we whatever. And I think so often that's not what we're prioritizing. And if we don't do that, then we're going to pay the price at some point. It just may not be right now.

A So I think that's amazing advice that anyone can begin to build into their own daily routine. But, you know, I remember I remember being a student in school, and I remember being a young associate in an architecture firm and just trying to keep keep up with everyone else. So what can firm leaders do to encourage others to create that space short of doing it themselves. Because one of the things that I don't think that firm leaders acknowledge enough is that people do mirror their leadership down to the point where, like, I wanna say, if you're telling people you have a more flexible work schedule and you have the ability to come and go from the office as you want, but you yourself as a firm leader is showing up, you know, and doing that 7 to 6 window just like you did pre pandemic, then what you're essentially telling people is, yes, we have this flexible workplace policy. But if you want to be a leader in the firm, you need to show up like I'm showing up.

B Yeah. And I would say similarly, if you have a leader that always says, I have the right answer. This is the right answer. Do you have the right answer? Rather than going, you know, I'm not quite sure. Like, I've realized recently this is not my area of strength. I would love to hear from the group. Like, that is so empowering on that small question in a leader's mind and in the circle around them allows people to come in and then, like, raise all tides. When a leader shows certainty, I think that we have this misunderstanding, like, that shows strength.

B Right? And you're like, actually, a lot of times that shows, like, a misunderstanding of the gifts they were given or a misunderstanding of certainty. I'm not saying that, like, you can't come in and just say, like, okay. This is the decision I'm making. I will live with whether this was the right decision or not because I am the leader. And I think that's really important. But I think I feel so fortunate to have a leader have multiple leaders, but one specifically at our firm who I always know is going to listen to the voice that says, are you sure about that? Like, have you considered this? And that consistent listening allows other voices to come in, and I'm watching how empowering that is for everyone around him. I also think sometimes similarly. Right? I mean, I am a massive fan of Brene Brown.

B And I think that that understanding of, like, when people empower show vulnerability, they open up the ability for others to be vulnerable and true to themselves. And I think that that doesn't mean, like like, an oversharing of, like, oh, I've had the worst day and, oh my god, da da da da da da. But more of of a, you know, like, oh, yeah. I have a son that's struggled with that or, you know, I've had really tough times, you know, in my life as well and I'm here to listen or I'm here I think that, like, you can send off a vibe of it is safe to be different or not. And I think part of that is really just in your engagement style of, like, how you if we think of how like, we're all on conference calls all the time or, you know, in meetings and how you start and end those meetings, how you listen to voices that are more quiet and create equal opportunity for people to talk. I think so often the leader in these areas has so much more power than they realize. And I've heard people just say, well, nobody who spoke up, so, you know, I guess they don't care or, you know, only that one person. And I'm like, okay.

B That could mean they're afraid. That could mean they're introverted. That could mean they're have an anxiety disorder and are struggling to say the thing. It doesn't mean that they don't have a good idea. And, similarly, when I have people that I report to and work with who create that open space to say, like, hey. I saw that look on your face. Like, dude, tell me more about that. I'm really curious.

B Like, I wanna lean into the discomfort rather than like smooth it all over. I think that our want to smooth out all the edges of this life. We think that it's doing ourselves a service, but it really is a service because life is not solely smooth and super easy. And I think, like, kind of normalizing some of that navigating of different people and different norms is really helpful. I also think sometimes making smaller groups where you're able to kind of, like, have those dynamics, have that trust, etcetera, is really positive. And maybe this one's so obvious, but, man, the degree of toxicity that we can bring into a room, both, like, on a spiritual woo woo way, but also just a super factual way, we bring energy into every space. And when we, like, heal ourselves, work on ourselves, we are bringing that into the space. Similarly, when we are burnt out and angry, we bring that into the space.

B And so when I hear people, you know, throwing other people down, throwing them under the bus, talking badly about them, I always just worry, like, I just kinda wanna go and hug them because I'm like, this is not helpful. How do we instead get to the root of this? What is the part that's, like, causing discomfort? How do we seek for understanding? A lot around just compassion, but also, you know, I think that, like, how we see ourselves is so much in the world. And so I know this sounds so woo woo, but when we love ourselves, we become less reliant on the rest of the world being happy with us all the time. And by doing that, then we become more fearless to do the things that, like, light us up and spark us with joy. And, you know, in my career trajectory, I have had so much headwind against, why are you doing research? Like, that's not worth anything. You know, like, you're just etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, just layers on layers. And I think that just understanding your worth and not tying it to someone else's perception of you is a lifelong struggle for probably all of us. It definitely is for me, and I think it's a really worthy one.

B I'll just also say I I found the shirt a 1000000 years ago that was, like, your worth I had didn't buy it, but I still want it every day. I was, like, your worth is, like, not measured by your productivity. And it was just during a time where that I felt like that was my all of my worth measured by my productivity. And if that's true, then who are we in this world?

A So I have 2 almost contradicting thoughts on this. We both have young ones at home. And while I was, like, trying to figure my way out, you know, on on how to raise a a decent human being in in this world. I read somewhere that, you know, as growing up as a child, I was always told, you know, I'm so proud of you by by my parents. So the mental switch there for that I say to my kids, instead of saying, I'm so proud of you, I say, are you so proud of yourself? Yes. Right? Yes. Because that's the framework that I want them to be evaluating things from not whether or not they've made me proud, but whether or not they're proud for what they've accomplished. Yeah.

A But contradictory to that Mhmm. And and you do this so well. You're an incredible hype woman when it comes to kind of lifting people up. So it's like, yeah, I do. Like, I want to be happy with myself, but we long before, like, that connection of knowing that what we're saying makes, like matters to other people. Yeah. So I would say, while you're telling people to be proud of themselves, like, there is nothing wrong also hyping up people along the way.

B Oh, man. I'm totally for hyping up peep I mean, I think my thing is, like, if I'm gonna see it and I'm gonna love it and I'm gonna think about it all the time, like, I just gotta tell you, you know, I can only see it so many times before I'm like, Evelyn, I just gotta tell you, you're awesome. Keep going. You know what I love? My daughter is 5. She's already started to do that sometimes to, like, send me strangers, but she's like, I love this about you. This is really

A great. And I'm, like, oh, yes.

B Yeah. You know, the research around giving and receiving, Adam Grant has an amazing book called To Give and Take, and, actually, just yesterday, I had a newsletter on mentorship because it's, like, mentorship month. And talking about how we give and hype others and how much of a gift that is back to ourselves. I love there's like this this quote somewhere in like Buddhist philosophy around like, basically, if you're gonna be a smart selfish person, then what you would do is, like, root for, like, everyone to feel well and be well and, like, you know, happy. Because, like, the darkness doesn't raise anything in the world. And, yeah, I just totally feel like I just love telling people the truth of what I already think, which is, you know, that they're beautiful and wonderful and talented. And I strongly support telling other people how fabulous they are when you actually think it, not when you're lying.

A So the wonderful thing about you is, like, it comes through in a way that is you cannot second guess the authenticity behind the hype, and I appreciate that. Any last thought? I mean, you've given so many, I think, really good tidbits on on how to create space for yourself, how to create space for others. Maybe maybe a big wish for 2024 relative to the future of the profession and and how to improve upon ourselves.

B I think in so many ways to remember that everything that we are doing now in this exact moment is just like one pebble in this beautiful journey that we are on and that sometimes when you create, you know, a pebble or 2 or 3 and you think, oh, that that wasn't in the direction I wanted or, you know, I wish that those were a little bit more shiny. Just, like, keep going. Like, try to allow yourself to, you know, see yourself truly, see your areas for improvement truly while continuing to just move forward, not getting hung up on whether or not you're good enough, whether or not that was like the perfect thing to do in that exact moment, but rather continuing this process of growth. I have a sign on my wall that my friend made, and it says experiment, fail, learn, repeat. And I got that made because I realized that I was so obsessed with trying not to fail, but that failing fast, failing early, failing cheap is the way to fail, and that all of life is an experiment, whether it's in our social relationships, the things that we try at work, all of it is an experiment and to not, like, just like in science, don't expect every experiment to, like, only work out. Like, give yourself some more space. You know?

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of practice disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.