Power of Podcasting in Architecture

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this Hello, disruptors. Welcome back to another episode of Practice Disrupted, and thank you for tuning in this week to learn about the power of storytelling and how podcasts can be used to tell the stories of our buildings and the changes they create within our communities. Lauren Popish is a kindred spirit. She has a background in interiors, but she also is somewhat of a workplace strategist, which is where I've spent a number of years in my career. And I recently found out that her husband or her partner is an architect that has gone to the dark side of developing. We joked a little bit about that.

A But she also founded Wave Podcasting, which is actually the production team behind season 7 and this season of Practice Disrupted. So we'll learn a little bit more about Wave as well. But, Lauren, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you in front of a mic instead of behind the scenes. We're glad to have you. It's great to be here.

B I love getting back on the mic in this way, and I love talking about podcasting, but also design. I don't get to do that very much anymore. So it's it's really fun to be here.

A Yeah. So why don't just so maybe people understand your background and how you got into Wave and production and podcasting, why don't you tell us about your story from working in architecture firms? Quite frankly, you're still working in workplace, right, with Google. That's right. Tell us the story where you are and then a little bit on why you started Wave podcasting on the side and and the story behind that as well.

B Absolutely. Yeah. I started out with a traditional interiors background. I started my career at Gensler and really quickly realized that school, kinda, doesn't prep you for what the realities of working in the industry are. Because when you're in school, you get to play the role of really a design founder or, like, owning your own firm. You make every decision for yourself. And so it's hard to know what parts of actually being an interior designer is the work that you like to do and the things that are actually the role. And so when I got into a big firm, I was like, wait.

B I'm used to being the boss. I I love making all the design decisions. I I love talking to people. At Gensler, at a firm of a size, like, your junior people aren't pitching. They're they're not in the room with the client. That was some of my favorite part. In many ways, the creative or the heads down part was, like, the least compelling part of it, and so I very quickly realized that I needed to switch to something that was going to fit my interests and my skills, what I felt like my best skills were, and allow me to kind of continue being creative. And and that was workplace strategy for me.

B It really felt like all of the best things of design school, critical thinking, working directly with clients, solving problems, digging into needs, and and finding patterns. Like, the science behind the art of interior design, it it really fit with with my need. But but I had burned out so quickly on being a young architect, interior designer in New York City. Like, I was 3 years in and felt like I, you know, was in my thirties, and I I just burned out too too hard, too fast. And when a tech company kind of approached me with the opportunity to take some of these commercial workplace concepts and and turn them into a software tool that would ease design or test fitting, specifically, for for large companies. I was really intrigued and had just really connected with the technology side of of our work. Really was just continually surprised by how architecture and AEC was progressing from a technology side at a significantly slower rate than than under other industries, so I really jumped at the chance to do that. And it totally opened my mind.

B I mean, I got my product manager certification and started building software, which is such a crazy transition. But I think no one may be surprised on this call because design thinking is the translatable skill that matters in the modern workplace. I I really believe that. I I think you can have a degree in design of any kind and go make a significant impact in any industry. And that's and that's how it felt. I joined a tech company. I was an expert in workplace and and design. I helped bring concepts to reality through software and fell in love with what the role of a product manager is, which is kind of like someone who solves problems just not in the physical space.

B There's a little bit more instant gratification.

A There's so much to impact there. The reason why I jumped into kind of workplace strategy too in that type of work was just the lack of interaction I was having with the client or or my client not actually being the end user of this space. Right? Even when you do schools, most often, you're working with the school board, which might have their own ideas separate from, frankly, the teachers or the students that are inhabiting the space. So I think I I imagine a lot of people can relate from your experience coming out of school, wanting to kinda do design, and then being so separate from this process that you kinda fall in love with at school. Exactly. And then what's most fascinating about your work or your jump into tech is, you know, people always ask when I jump into tech, how do I be a UX designer? Because that's the natural path, right, for them. They like, user experience design for those who don't know what UX is. So it's great to hear that you kind of landed in this product management role, which uses all the same skill sets you were talking about from workplace strategy and that translation.

A And just, hopefully, the individuals listen know that there's so many different roles in even a tech company that your skills translate over to. You just really need to figure out what you're truly passionate about. And frankly, I feel like people who come into the PMO space come from such varied backgrounds versus, like, people who end up in the UX space have a very design based background if they're not, like, a whole degree in UX design. Right? So I just feel like there's a lot more variability to people who are serving in project management or even customer success.

B Absolutely. I think if you were someone who maybe enjoyed a kind of role within an architecture firm that was like project manager and you enjoyed the organizational side and the bringing together, even though you applied that in a design setting, you may be a better fit for something like a product manager who is responsible for kind of pulling all the pieces together. But there are so many roles. You know? I wish I could tell designers so much. Maybe this is my soapbox. Like, maybe this is my big chance. There's a lot out there for you that that can take your best skills, the things that you're so good at, that you're really revered for as a designer. Take them out of that setting and apply them to a new space and be an expert.

B Expert. Be not one of many in an architecture firm doing many of the same things, but be the expert in your in these skills that you've built. There's a lot of room in other industries.

A Yeah. And I think alternative, like, the flip side of that, you know, it's interesting because a lot of the conversations I have with architects and architecture firms' leaders is we need to make it as attractive to stay in the industry as it is to lead. So, you know, what are these other roles, given how technology is growing and expanding, that we should be thinking of bringing into firms, and and how does that work? Every architecture firm should have a team dedicated to technological innovation, or it's just

B not gonna happen for for architecture. I mean, I I don't consider, not to jump ahead a little bit, but I don't consider podcasting to be the latest and greatest technology. I I don't. It's it's the equivalent of, like, web based radio, you know, that you can just listen to it anytime. Radio has been around a long time, so so there's not a lot of innovation, maybe beyond the the equipment itself that that is quite technical. But but I do think that if we can just think beyond the the boundaries of, like, what tech is, like, what we consider technology for architecture and, frankly, the people consuming our architecture. Like, that, it just opens up a world of innovation to solve for humans. You you gotta meet them where they are.

B That means you have to have some level of understanding how our our world is changing and its relationship to to technology. So, yes, Evelyn. We have to we have to build these teams internally. So that if there is an architecture yeah. There is an architecture firm to speak of, that it's not just tech tech companies ruling the world.

A Yeah. Okay. So getting back on track about where you're are doing at Google. But so back on track to being at Gensler, being a workplace strategist, then working at this tech firm, doing project management, where does Wave and podcasting come in?

B I think it comes in when I started to learn about the world beyond architecture. And I know that sounds crazy, but I I was so obsessed with being a designer and my identity as a designer that when I joined this this tech startup, I felt like my mind was really expanded to understand the dynamics that are, like, driving the our world. Like, I learned a lot about the Internet that I just didn't know about domains and about how just like the basic way that, like, when you go to Google search and you enter something or you type in a domain into your search bar, what happens? What happens when you type that in? It it really just opened up a lot for me. And software development, hardware, we were this tech company because we were serving our audience where it was a real estate tech startup, so we were serving architects, but developers and end users and things like that. We also were trying to play in the VR space, so there was, like, a hardware component, hardware technology and software. And I think I just really started to expand my mind, so I don't think had I had I not moved to the start up, I might have started a podcast or thought that that was something that was was something that I could do or was capable of doing on my own. It felt so technical. And now I'm like, you just heard me say, like, podcasting isn't really technical at all, but it felt it felt that way at the time.

B And the real reason I started a podcast, which is how I started the company, we could go deep into this, but I basically had a a public speaking kind of, like, meltdown. I I had a panic attack while giving a sales pitch or a a kind of presentation at work that debilitated me. I had never thought about speaking and that being hard. Like, I I conceptually knew that people were afraid of public speaking. I just couldn't relate to that. I had done theater when I was young, and you heard me mention earlier that my favorite part of being an architect was being in the room with clients. I wanted to be in pitches. I loved speaking and presenting, mostly because it had come so naturally, and I had never really thought about it.

B But I had this public speaking blunder that for the first time, I just realized I was like, oh, this is scary, kind of. Like, I had never it had never occurred to me that you should be nervous about about speaking, but this one incident put me down a path that altered everything. I developed truly, like, a phobia of speaking so severely at that time when it first happened that I could even barely be, like, in a conference room with my colleagues. I I could barely be around people. I was just afraid at any time that, you know, my body would would fail me. I was having, like, a lot of intrusive thoughts. Like, if I can mess up a public speaking thing, what else could happen? You know? Like, am I even in control of my own body? It just a switch flipped for me. And so I had to, after this incident, kind of, come to terms with the fact that, like, I have to I have to do some work to get back to a level of confidence where I can speak, perform my job, be a human in the world.

B I mean, you you really don't realize until you're terrified to open your mouth how important it is for you to advocate for yourself, be a good social person, be a good colleague, and really be responsible for your own success and your own and your own autonomy in the world. It all comes from your ability to to speak on your own behalf. And so when that fear was happening, I just knew that I that I had a long road ahead of me to to to fix that. So I I tried a lot of modalities. I joined Toastmasters immediately. I got a therapist that specialized in this kind of immersion therapy that I needed to kind of get up again and again and again and and work out this this anxiety. It was extremely uncomfortable. But one of the things one of the tools that I chose to try and help myself overcome and build up that muscle again was podcasting.

B So it was less of a the podcast I started at the time was a book club podcast, book books and wine. It was totally a hobbyist podcast. It was not strategic at all, but the real reason I did it was to build confidence, and it did. I won't say that podcasting's fixed a phobia of speaking for me because it it isn't true. There are a lot of things I tried at that time to help, and and I have reached a much better place where I'm able to kind of cope with the, probably, lifelong anxiety that I'll have around speaking. But podcasting did something for me that I didn't think was possible in hearing back my own voice on a good microphone with high quality editing. I saw myself through new light. I heard myself as confident.

B I saw myself as someone who isn't afraid to speak, who has a powerful voice, who has a unique voice. I really just felt like it was doing something for me that others hadn't talked about in the benefits of podcasting. You can build a following, you can grow a business, you can market yourself, you can establish yourself, you can be a storyteller, but no one was talking about how it could really help you build confidence as a speaker and as a person. So that high, I guess, and that realization opened up a door to me where I just felt like I needed to share it. There was no way I could just let this realization be kept with just me, and so I very slowly started to build a company. The original company was not a production company. It was a studio space company because my favorite, I can hear about space. Yes.

B So it wasn't about, you know, editing and having production. It was about building studio spaces for women where they felt comfortable enough to come in, use their voice, try something hard, maybe something that was scary or felt technical, and build podcasts in an in a beautiful environment. But we were really hampered by the pandemic. I started in New York in my own apartment. Just built a studio there and started running it out until my landlord was like, what are you doing down there? Classic classic New York where they're just like, stop stop whatever whatever it is that you've got happening in that unit, just stop. And so we moved to LA, and I found an apartment that had a space that I knew I could turn into a studio and had the launch party in late February 2020 and immediately shut it to, like even the launch party, it was like, we didn't really know what's going on. I had, like, a tiny piece thing of Purell. I was, like, if you want it, it's on the table.

B Like, we we didn't, you know, we didn't know anything. And so, you know, we shut down, and I said, well, first of all, I built this company. At the time, I was still working at the startup that had then been acquired by CBRE, so I was a part of CBRE at that time. But I wasn't willing to give up on it, and women were still feeling like they needed this space, but it it couldn't be a physical space. So I was like, I have to build the digital space. If we can't help women feel comfortable and build confidence through podcasting in person in LA, then we have to find that and build that space online. And that's really how the the production company came to be. But just like any side pursuit, you know, I was not in those early days just learning so much and wasn't really naive enough to think that I could do it all by myself.

B You know? So I I really felt like, okay. The wave is my passion. It's what I'm going to it's my my real job, my full job, and I'm going to let my, you know, workplace strategy job be my side hustle, be the thing that is, like, my venture fund to my company. So I did the wave for full time for a year during the pandemic when our team was laid off from CBRE. It was it was great, but I I just knew that I needed to continue to grow it slowly. And I think there is something to be said for, like, slow intentional growth of a of a company. I think side hustling, it doesn't have a good reputation anymore because it it turns you into a workaholic. But I think that, you know, raising capital and venture funds is a different kind of control, and you give up a lot of other things to to do that.

B So it was important for me to maintain control. And to me, it felt easy to let a full time job do that for me. So I ended up it's a long story, and and this whole podcast would be that. And I think a lot of people don't love when people just go on and on about their backgrounds. So I promise I will provide some value at some point. But I have to say that this opportunity at Google came up that is the culmination of all of these different things that I've done. They needed someone with a product manager background to build out a product based team that would ultimately be the way they did workplace innovation. So they wanted it to run like a product team, but they needed someone who knew about workplace.

B And I was like, what are the chances that that this combo of skills would come together? But what I wanna highlight is that it can, and it does. And it's okay to have these kind of this wandering path that ultimately comes back together. And and, frankly, my boss and the team loved that I was entrepreneurial. They felt I was bringing interesting skills to the table. They loved that I did podcasting because they wanted to understand that you know, see how we could apply multimedia to to their work. So, ultimately, what maybe looked and felt like at the time, like a departure or a wandering path, came back around to support a company like Google that needed someone with a lot of really random skills. And it turns out that person was me. And so I I continue to work for them, and I continue to support the workplace strategy team, and and the workplace product development team is the one that I'm on.

B And it's great. It's it's a best of all all the worlds. But at the time, I don't know that I felt like I was on any kind of real path. It felt very nonlinear and maybe even like a risk or a mistake to kind of go out and start the wave.

A Yeah. Wow. So many different things in there. I do think one one benefit that you've mentioned also a benefit to me is, you know, we're at over a 140 episodes with practice disrupted, and you get so much better at refining. I found my voice, and I refined it and found additional interesting stories to tell all because of the narration and the interviews and hearing my own voice on the podcast as well. So so that is kind of a self empowerment tool. Like, I totally get that, and that's not a benefit that I saw at all or imagined being a part of starting a podcast.

B Exactly. Because I think it doesn't feel like a benefit at the time. Like, growth doesn't feel fun. So when you're like when you're

A like Never really.

B No. So when you're like, hey, start a podcast in the beginning, you're gonna hate it, you're gonna hate your boys, you're gonna listen back to your interviews and be, like, wow, I suck at this. But design is kinda that way too. Right? I was thinking about this as as I was prepping for this, and I was like, yeah. The evolution, the iteration is the good stuff, And it's the reason that not a lot of people can be architects and designers, and and really why this field is so specialized, why when you go to school, they only let 25 of you in or whatever it is. It's because it takes a really certain kind of person to iterate through design and grow that way, and the podcast success rate. I mean, Evelyn, your show this show represents 0.0001 percent of shows out there, because just to get be in the 1% of a podcast, you only have to release 21 episodes. That's how hard it is.

B That's how hard it is to be good. And 21 episodes, that's that's not even a half a year of podcasting, but so few people can stick to it because it is uncomfortable. But if you can push through it, it's like any it's like going to the gym. It's like iterating through a great design concept. It's like all these things that are uncomfortable for us. It really can lead to incredible results. And so I'm not surprised to hear that that where you are right now, you really feel like this is something you've built over a 140 episodes, and it's it's remarkable. Maybe listeners don't appreciate what a unique show this is and how hard it is to get to this point, really.

A Oh, well, thank you for that. It means so much coming from somebody who's more of an expert in this space than I feel like, obviously, I am because I just do one show, and I don't understand the the broader podcast landscape. I also appreciate, and I hope our listeners appreciate the fact that you talked about how nonlinear your journey felt and how loss or, you know, uncertain that you felt at times even when you, like, made the decision to go in all in on something. But, also, I, you know, I imagine, you know, the product management team at Google didn't exist even 1 or 2 years ago. So I think things are evolving so much. I've gotten to a point in my career where I always said, you know, my next thing after Slack is going to be whatever I make of it, whether it's my own company or finding a new place in another company. I feel like I'm going to have to craft that position, you know, and work with whoever my future boss is just to figure out what that what that is and create something new.

B Absolutely. To your point, the role didn't exist to you. But when I interviewed for this role, the team had been there for 4 months. So you're absolutely right that you have the ability to to craft your own your own path and to simply take a role and take it as written. Some companies don't even know what they're gonna need. And so having this interesting, this this this flexible background and and being someone who has the ability to evolve and change, and ultimately, that's, again, why I think creativity and design thinking is one of the best skills is because we just don't know what we're gonna need. So let's find people who have that ability to live in ambiguity and solve as you go along. I I think designers are the best people to do that.

B They are the they are the employees of the future for for every industry. I believe that.

A Yeah. I hope that leaves our listeners who might not be as interested in podcasting on a on a positive note, but I do wanna talk about podcasting as kind of this medium for storytelling and the fact that I feel architects can get a lot better about the stories that we tell about our buildings. So would love to hear a little bit from you about you know, architects are such we're such visual beings, but I feel like to our our own detriment. Like, I I see our architects post gorgeous photos of their projects on Instagram, you know, and on LinkedIn. And they might get a lot of likes because they're gorgeous things, but I don't think those likes necessarily translate to to clients, honestly, unless you're, like, high end residential. And I feel like that's, like, the one sector where it might actually have more of a translation. But because we don't tell the stories enough about our buildings, the clients they're built for, and and who inhabits them, and and why those spaces that we create are so special. So is podcast a good medium for architects to begin to explore?

B Of course, I think yes. Yes. And it's so easy to start, and it really is. What sets you apart from the designer next to you, and what separates Evelyn from me, separates you from the person your colleague, is not what you do, because you're both architects or you're both designers. It's how you do it, and it's the how and then unique perspective that you bring to your work that is your differentiator. And that is really true for anything you build. Why are there thousands of business podcasts out there, but you listen to one versus another? It's not the content necessarily, because you could probably find a podcast about architecture, or about business, or about some topic elsewhere. So it's not really about the content.

B It's about who it is that's telling you about the content and the way that they're doing it. And so storytelling and podcasting can play an important role in helping people know your perspective, the uniqueness behind the how, how you came up with it, the perspective and the experience that you're bringing to how you design. That's hard to capture in your work, but it is the thing that may separate someone from wanting to work with you for someone else. It's the you ness in it. Photos are really hard at communicating that you ness. It's really easy to compare one building to another and say, what's the difference? Until you hear the person and the logic that you put behind every decision that you made to to create a building. So I absolutely think storytelling is an important part of not just telling the story of the building or the the outcome, but the story of you and your experience that led to you being able to make those decisions. That's completely unique.

B That's also the reason someone may wanna hire you for someone else. We all went to school. We all have training. We all have the the same software. What is it that's different? It's you. It's your it's your experience, the your your unique perspective. And I really think that storytelling, we know from history that the best way to to communicate that is through story, and the best way to do that is with your own voice. Written medium is is great, but as a society, we really are turning away from these time consuming things.

B We don't read long blog posts anymore. We don't read we don't get the newspaper. We're living in a society where we need to be able to absorb this information quickly, and we may need to be able to absorb it while doing something else. So podcasting is a a companion medium. It means you listen to it while doing something else, and that fits the the way that we're, kind of, all going through the world. But using your own voice to tell your story about your work may be the thing that helps people understand why it matters. Because without your perspective, without the why behind it, without the person behind the work, it just looks like the the next building on the block. But we all know that a million little choices went into why it is the way it is.

B And the best way to do that is with your own voice. Whether you choose to do that on a podcast or you choose to get up and tell someone about it or open up Instagram and use your voice, that's up to you. The way you do it isn't necessarily important, but the fact that you do do it is the thing that I think will separate someone from someone else.

A Yeah. I think I mean, it also gives you an opportunity to it kinda shows your personality. I've been interested in and I follow their work, maybe like a graphic designer, and I'm like, oh, I wanna work with them. And then I get on the phone with them or I start emailing them, and I was like, our, like, press like, the way we work is just that It's not compatible. It's not compatible, unfortunately. As much as I love our work, we just don't make good workmates. So I feel like podcasting is a unique way for people to get to know you on a different level than just through a picture or any actually voice medium. But as you were talking about that, I was like, you know, it would be even so much more powerful if you could bring on a client and have a conversation about the decisions, both good and bad, maybe keep it as candid as possible about about their process and what it was like to work with you.

A And I imagine that if somebody is listening and and they're like, I wanna have that relationship, that same relationship with my architect when I go and work with them, that's, like, another way to tell the story of of what it's like to to work with you.

B 100%. I I love that idea. I love of getting the other side in in the room and saying, here's what I wanted. Here's how you translated it. Here's how the decisions happened. From a marketing standpoint in helping people get to know you, you're exactly right. That that is a very compelling way to tell people about what it's like to work with you. And I wanna point out some some kind of facts about podcasting that are unique as a marketing channel because it is a form of digital marketing.

B Right? And that, I think that's kind of the context that we're talking about podcasting in. If you think of how long you get to spend in the ear speaking to someone through a podcast, it is insanely longer than any other you have available to you, including, like, a Zoom call. Right? Including, like, an in person meeting. The average time spent on an Instagram, you know, image while that has increased through reels is somewhere between 5 and 60 seconds. The amount of time on YouTube is a little bit longer, and, again, that platform really incentivizes you to stay present and stay on your videos. 10 minutes is the average consumption time of a YouTube video. Blog posts, 5 to 8. The average listen time for a podcast is 30 minutes.

B So think of how much longer you get to spend convincing, but not not directly convincing, indirectly through your personality convincing someone that you are the person that they wanna work with. It it builds a level of what we call, like, from a marketing perspective, know, like, and trust with you that pretty much no other platform can come even close to in terms of the amount of time you get to spend with them. And it's the reason why you feel like you know your podcast host of your favorite podcast like they're your best friend. It's the reason you feel so connected to them. It's because the amount of time you get to to to hang out with them. What an opportunity to let your unique perspective be shown either through speaking with your client, the way that you, kind of, go back and forth, whether you do a solo podcast, whatever it is, you know, you can't discount the unique opportunity there is to spend a lot of time with your audience. It's not great at building new audiences. Right? Because what you're asking of them to do, you're asking people for a lot.

B You're asking, sit down with me every week for 60 minutes. That's a big ask. Like, it's it's asking a lot. We don't have a lot of time, so it's hard to grow. It's not a platform that you that you get on to so you can have instant growth, huge audiences. You can get to big audiences, but that's not its skill. You would go to YouTube or TikTok or a place that has algorithms that puts you in front of millions of people very quickly. Podcasting isn't that.

B It's about a slow and steady relationship, but your audience, as a podcaster, are more committed to you. And it's the reason that advertisers love podcasts is because they know that if you, as your host, recommend a product, your listeners are so committed. They're so bonded to you that, you know, people will purchase whatever it is. That's maybe the dark side of podcasting, but I give it as an example. I give it as an example to show what the benefits, like, where where there really is value in podcasting and all of us. If we have the chance just to try and convince someone, a client, a prospective client, why us? Why me? Why my perspective? And why my work matters? Sounds like there's no better place to to get 60 minutes with someone, and it's pretty rare these days.

A That is really an interesting I actually have never thought about it that way. But I the feeling of warmth but also, like, overwhelmingness, you know, as people started especially when Janine and I were traveling together and she was my cohost of, like, people that just started coming up and saying hello and that they listen. Well, we were so incredibly grateful for it. The starting point for those conversations of people that had been listening to our podcast were very different than the starting point for the conversations of people who I might otherwise have, like, just met on the elevator or at a conference, and we're already able to start at, like, a level of understanding with one another where we had a common language. Even meeting new listeners in person, it's it's been interesting to see how different that relationship is between meeting, you know, like, another work colleague or a friend of a friend and and kind of, like, building up that relationship from from the ground up.

B I love that anecdote so much. You know, take your first interaction with a podcast, a lead. Think about them as a lead now. Your your client, the level of conversation that you're having at that point is we've skipped the basics. We're beyond that. Now we're we're we're moving into higher level deeper connection conversations. That's huge. I I love that anecdote.

B I know I'm gonna tell people about that.

A I'm glad well, I'm glad you're getting something out of this too. Yeah.

B I know. Always getting something. Always getting something.

A Always learning, I feel like, is really what it is. Okay. So now we've convinced people, like, hey, maybe a podcast is an interesting medium to try. And you're telling me it's not that that technical, but I know that feeling of I don't wanna start a podcast show until I have all my ducks in a row or all designers. We don't wanna put anything that's choppy out into the world. I, myself, like, didn't start a podcast until I had somebody come up to me and say, we're gonna take care of all of the production side and you're gonna sound great. How do I get over all of that, you know, the designer mindset of that, and where do I start?

B That is the biggest risk. I think for most people and especially for this audience, for for designers, for folks who are used to a level of refinement and maybe always wanting to put their best foot forward in a way that that is super designer approved. So this is the biggest risk is that you would not make progress on your podcast because you were busy perfecting. So one of our company values that we try and embody and we try and push out to our clients is progress over perfection. I'll go back to that point we made earlier, which is if you want something good, which we all do, if you if you wanna build that thing that you really are proud of, the best the only way, I would argue, to get there is by doing it. So you have to start. You just it's like the sooner you start, the sooner you can get to a great end product. And I think that's a really great way to shift your mindset is like, I do wanna create something good.

B The only way I can do that is by doing a lot of it. So I might as well start now and know that you always have the permission. There's there's another podcasting educator that that talks about this who I've I've kind of really loved that she says this. You are you are in the driver's seat. You can always delete. That's your that's your prerogative. You don't like it? Delete it. That's that's the beauty of this content.

B Put it out, and then when you're 6 months in and you're listening back to your first five episodes, you're like, this is bad. Get rid of them. Yeah. Get rid of them. That's, like, that's your I you know, I'm someone who who's, like, you know, the the real fans will want the early stuff, you know, like the I I like to keep it up as a reminder of of of the all that, but but the but you have that power to delete later. You also have the power to record 5 episodes, not release them, and start your podcast at episode 6. But the point is starting is the important part. I've created every resource you can have.

B Seriously, you want to learn about podcasting? I've got a thousands of articles, really, hundreds of articles, downloads, every educational course and and video you could ever want. It still won't mean that you are putting out something that you're happy and proud of. So skip the reading and just go for it. Let the doing be the teacher. So that's my one big piece of advice is just don't let perfection stop you from making progress. How do you start? It's not with a microphone. It's really with a why, and that is where that will ground you so that you can get to that episode 21. I think we we said, you hit 21 episodes, you're in the top 1% of podcasts.

B Seems like an easy goal. Like, if we're gonna talk about, like, what we should strive for, let's try to get to 21 episodes. That sounds like a great place to start. So it's not with buying a microphone. The thing that you're gonna start with is, why am I doing this? And it's that that mission, that that that reason that will help you continue to come back to the mic when you listen to the first episode and it's really upsetting when you're tired, when your guest cancels on you, when you are looking at the budget or, like, looking at down the barrel of, like, editing your podcast and it's midnight and you have to start work tomorrow. The thing that's gonna keep you pushing through those hard times of growth, because growth is incredibly uncomfortable as we were talking about, it's the why. So it's important to start there and know why you're doing this, and know what you would be missing out on if you didn't start your podcast. I'm missing out on an opportunity to meet incredible people.

B My husband has a a real estate podcast called Building LA that his whole thing is all about. He just wants to meet cool people in Los Angeles who are in his industry. Literally doesn't care if one person listens. Some people happen to listen, but his ROI is I'm making these connections. I'm meeting people. I'm I'm literally getting 60 minutes with my hero or someone who's, like, you know, I would never have access to in a normal day. How cool is that? So that's his ROI. You know, when he's done with his day job and he's come back from a networking event or something and he still has to record his intro, that's the thing that's that's getting him through, you know, 11 PM or 12 PM at night, 12 AM.

B Make that the same for you. Find the why that's gonna keep you pushing through those first 21 episodes. Because after that, it's gonna feel enjoyable, but you also know what the importance of it is. And then I would say, in tandem with the why, you're looking for who the audience is. Who are you speaking to? In my husband's case, I just mentioned, he knows his audiences is our, you know, you kinda have to be in Los Angeles. It's a local podcast. And you probably work in the building industry or in the real estate industry. Great.

B That that's enough. But but it's important to know who you're talking to, because if you have a goal, if your ROI is, I really wanna build something that millions of people listen to, but you don't know who those millions of people are, you're gonna have a hard time convincing them that they should spend 60 minutes with you each week. So sometimes we build podcasts for ourself, and that's an okay reason to do it. But if we expect that our show to grow while we're building it for ourselves, that's a mistake. If you want your show to benefit other people, you gotta build it for them, which means you talk about things they care about. You have a calendar, an episode calendar, that is relevant to those people. So start with those two questions, and then let an expert tell you which equipment to buy. If you're if you're intimidated by the technical side of it, there's a lot of people who know about that.

B Let someone else be the expert in the equipment. Let somebody else be the expert in the software side of things. You own your piece of it. So start with why, move on to the to the things that you need to do to start right away. And that means I don't need to buy the most expensive perfect mic. It just means I need to buy something that that's gonna work and get the job done. And then I can grow with it over time, that growth mentality. So it's so much easier said than done, but build that mantra, progress over perfection, progress over perfection.

B You know? To get to great, I have to do good now.

A You have to start somewhere. Right? No one starts that great. Or, you know, if you do, you must be so lucky to start that great. So yeah.

B I would argue no one starts great. Just appears that they do. The overnight success is is really you just tuned in at their great point. They've been doing it in a while, and I don't think any great person would be like, yeah. The when I won the US Open is when I started my career. It started when I was, you know, 5, picking up a racket. It's all like

A that. So just to give Wave a little bit more of a a bump here, Lauren obviously have expertise in podcasting. So there's plenty of resources on the Wave website itself for free if you're interested in getting into podcasting. So go to the wave podcasting.com and check it out. One of the things that also made it so much easier when I was looking around for production teams, quite frankly, with the transparency of your your pricing, just like right there. And Lauren has amazing production team. I would say she's in line with with market rates based on what she's delivering, and it's it's so transparent. If you want extra assistance with show notes, you just kinda click a button and you kind of have the sliding scale of how many minutes you need you need a month if you actually are really looking for production help.

A But other than that, other than than getting in, other than starting, is there any other advice that you have? And I guess a question that, you know, we've even asked our ourselves as that Janine and I struggled, especially when she was kinda making the decision to continue on or take a little bit of a break. I I keep saying she's taking a break because I imagine that one day she's gonna come back. Was the time commitment on our side. Right? It's 20 hours of a we do 2 seasons, 20 episodes each, but we also have to do all that prep in the background. We like to provide our speakers prep sheets. So we always question, does it have to be an hour long show? You know, some people I've seen offer podcasts where they're just talking in 5 minute snippets? Like, what's the goal? Where's the good starting place?

B Yeah. You you hit the nail on the head. You can find an example of a successful podcast at every length. That's the truth of it. You can find a a successful podcast. I can give you an example of a 5 minute successful podcast. I can give you an example of a successful podcast that runs for 3 hours. I think we all know that one.

B You get the choice. So what I always say is choose ease. Choose the easy route that is going to allow you to get to the point where you can put out an episode every single week and do it for years on end. Choose the path that is going to allow you to to make a routine. I think the choices that you make about length, the choices that you make about style or format of your podcast, all of those things impact how much time you have to spend on it. And if you don't have time or you're limited you have limited time, you're doing this as a hobby, most of us are. Most independent podcasters have some kind of day job or 2 that they're working on. So choose the thing that is going to allow you to to get that time back, but still be successful.

B There are all kinds of successful formats, all kinds of successful lengths. So you have the choice to do that. And then the second thing I would say is build systems. Use the power of automation. Use a calendar link so that if someone needs to cancel and reschedule, you don't need to have 3 emails about it. Use a template so that you can prep your guests the same way every single time. Use an email template where you can do it. Use systems to make it easy to turn this not into a one time thing that feels like a big lift.

B To turn it into a routine that becomes a little bit second nature, so that you can focus on. Your time should be on the the nature of the conversation itself. Just creating that that magic moment right right in the middle and and the thinking and the prep that goes into having that magic moment. Let all the admin, let all the editing, if you're if you're willing to invest in that, let all those things, you know, happen in an automatic way without you, but you can absolutely make choices early on that make your life easier. A shorter podcast is always an option. Recording a long podcast, nipping it into 2 episodes, you know, that's like an extension of the first. All these things are choices you can make. I think it's easy for us to feel like the this one show that I really like has this model, or this success the show is successful because of these things.

B And, really, success is a combination of all kinds of things that come together to make your show so choose 5 minutes. There is a totally underserved podcast market, I believe, in the 5:5 to 10 minute. We call it micro micro podcasting. There that is an underserved group. If you can deliver a piece of value in 5 minutes, I guarantee you, in the world that we live in, people will gobble it up. You probably have to do you know, the problem is is that people want so much of it. You have to do it 5 days a week, and then, you know, you're doing it all the time, but choose the easy the easy route. That's that's exactly right.

B It doesn't have to be 60 minutes. It it doesn't have to be any length because you can be successful at every rate. People really wanna be like, what's the average? The average is is about 30 minutes is people are listening to episodes regularly between 35 45 minutes. That's the average length. But that doesn't mean that those shows are successful. You know? That's just what people are listening to. You have a choice of of how hard it has to be on you.

A Great. I think this episode speaking speaking of coming to the end of our hour, I think this episode has covered so much more than I ever imagined it could. And we've been working together for over a year now, but I learned so much more about you and your journey. And the shared similarities that I think a lot of designers have when it comes to new creative mediums and where to start. So I've learned so much more about actually how I should be approaching podcasting too and changing that mindset as well. That's kind of reinvigorated me. So thank you for that. Any other last bit of advice that you wanna put into the world for somebody who's interested in starting or anything that you miss even, you know, on the the designer side that you want to tell the our audience?

B I think a common reason that people don't start podcasts is because they believe that it is saturated or that someone is already out there doing the thing that they want to be doing. There's already an architecture podcast. I know it because I listen to it. It's it's this one. I wanna kinda hit back on a point we made earlier, which is it's not about creating a podcast that in concept is totally different than anything else that exists. It's about bringing a perspective that that no one else has. And, of course, you, as an individual, have lived a life that no one else has lived. It may have similarities and overlap with people you know and people who have podcasts, but, ultimately, it is not hyperbole to say that no one has lived the life that you've lived, and therefore, nobody can bring your perspective.

B So if you won't have thought about starting a podcast, but you've looked out and said, there's something out there that's, kinda, like what I wanna create. I would encourage you to keep exploring that because while there are many podcasts about business, comedy, architecture, design. There's no one talking about those things who have had all of the life experiences that you've had, and frankly, there's no one talking about it who is you. So I would encourage you to pursue it if you're curious about it. And compared to other mediums like YouTube, Instagram, podcasting is not saturated. There are, you know, upwards. The most the largest estimate of how many podcasts there are are 4,000,000. The smallest is, 2,000,000.

B There's 500,000,000 blogs out there. I was

A gonna say the amount of website and other content.

B Yeah. Billions billions of YouTube accounts, You know? So by comparison, it really isn't saturated, even though it feels like a lot of people have it. So I would say, don't let I'm too late to the game or don't let the idea that everyone and their mom has a podcast, why should I start? There's still value to be had from your perspective. So give it a give it a try. We're here for you. The wave is.

A Yes. And it really is all about you, I think, which in hindsight, I feel like architects should really appreciate that the podcasts are all about you because we love talking about ourselves and the work that we do. Thank you so much for coming on to practice Disrupted today and and sharing your story. Thank you so much for having me. Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community.

A Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.