Using Data to Create a Better Employee Experience

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Thank you for tuning in this week. Today, we're bringing on a LinkedIn friend who has been traveling the world and talking about everything from digital transformation to people analytics, human resource technology, the future of work, and employee experience. And if you've ever tuned into the podcast before, you know that I geek out around everything data related, especially when it comes to building a better employee experience. So here's a little intro about my guest today.

A Doctor Serena Wong is a data analytics executive in Fintech, also known as the financial tech sector. She brings 10 years of professional experience working with large multinational companies such as GE, Kraft, Heinz, and Deloitte. As a data analytics executive, she is passionate about leading change, building high performance teams, and helping business leaders see data as an asset in large organizations. She also happens to have a PhD in economics from the University of Kansas. So welcome to the show, Serena. I'm so happy to have you here.

B Thank you so much for having me.

A We just read your more formal bio. We wanna get into the conversation and kick it off a little bit more informally. Is there something else that you would like our audience to know about you as we jump into this?

B Yeah. I am very active on LinkedIn. I do share a lot of content related to, obviously, data analytics, but also other important topics like mental health at work. So encourage everyone to check it out. I also have 3 courses on people analytics if anyone wants to get started as an introduction on LinkedIn Learning.

A Yeah. So we will be sure to link to your profile and to your courses down in the show notes below so everyone can check that out. So thank you for that. I am an avid follower of Serena. We actually met through the LinkedIn Creator Accelerator a couple of years ago and have been in touch. She runs these mental health and well-being challenges, and she's a really great, wonderful cheerleader to have in your corner. So you and I kind of have a similar background working in employee experience, you working in a very different part of employee experience than I tend to. How would you define just because I don't think our audience in the AEC industry, that terminology gets thrown around a lot.

A How would you define what the employee experience is?

B It's very simple. I would say it's what people experience at different parts of their work. That could be how they enter a building to their interactions with a manager, to how their colleagues make them feel, to something that perhaps that's being talked about a lot since COVID is how easy it is to get their job done on their laptop. So all of that is part of employee experience is really how you experience work put simply. And and there's really people components to that as well as physical space and digital space.

A A lot of the conversations today and I think when I think data analytics is, you know, how often are people coming in into the office and thing and things like that. But what else can we be measuring around employee experience other than just pure pure body.

B Yeah. You know what? I am surprised that we are still having this heated debate 4 years later. I don't know about you, but really 2 years ago, I thought for sure this was going to be a topic that goes away. But we're still figuring out And in addition to to, who is in the office, how often, there's certainly on the space side, you know, sort of the utilization. A lot of companies I've seen have started to add functionality for for people to indicate whether or not they actually like the space. So it's not just, how many people are there, but maybe there's like a little survey that you do that tells you how much you have enjoyed the space. And, you know, remind everyone who has been to an airport recently, you have probably seen the smiley faces in restrooms. Right? How was your experience? Was the smiley face, friendly face, and so on.

B And so I've definitely seen those additions since COVID. And, in addition to that, traditionally, HR departments often will measure employees through surveys and focus groups by asking how whether or not they will recommend their workplace to others. And that ranges from candidates who are interviewing for your company to people who are actually at the company. You know, surveys are really broad method. Of course, there are different topics that people talk about. I think one area that deserves more attention, if you ask me, is the relationship between employees and their manager. Sometimes we'll call them manager effect in those surveys. But really, if you think about it, that's the person that has such a huge impact on your life at work, such a huge impact on employee experience in general, it's the manager.

B Even if we work on huge teams and we collaborate with other functions, your manager ultimately can make your life amazing or sometimes horrible. So it's important for organizations to continue to get a pulse on how managers are doing. So manager effectiveness survey could be one way that gets you a lot of data around the employee experience, how people are handling day to day, their stress level, their interaction with their manager, the feedback they're getting, is it hopeful? Are they helping them with career development? And then all these are important topics to employees.

A What are some of the type of questions that you would ask on a manager survey?

B Oh, tough one. Okay. I have some favorite ones and, you know, because I'm such an advocate for employee mental health. One of my favorite questions is actually my manager cares about me as a person. And then you get to ask, you know, strongly disagree all the way to strongly agree. And it may seem atypical, but whether or not your manager cares about you as a person, if you think about it, it's important because I don't want to just work for some, you know, someone who only cares about work. Someone who doesn't care about me if I'm suddenly ill or if I have something going on at home. I want someone who is empathetic and compassionate.

B Those are important things to me as an individual when I look for, trades in a leader. So that could be one of them. And then the other aspects, I talk about career development. Right? That's something really important to most employees, and you can ask questions like my manager takes time discussing my career with me or something like that. And so that could be another way to to get a sense of how they're spending their time. And you can ask even more specific questions around meaningful one on ones. Right? Are they having meaningful one on ones with the manager? And as a general rule, the surveys I design, I always give everyone a chance to comment after each question. So now in meaning, instead of waiting until the very end and asking people, is there something else you want to tell us? And you know what? By then, everyone is really tired of the survey.

B They just want to exit and go. But after each question, if someone has something to add, like, additional context, they can put it there. And, it's also great for the data analytics geeks, because now we get to know what this comment is for, and it's not a general comment. So in the case of, you know, are you having meaningful one on ones with your manager and things like that? If someone comments and said, I haven't met my manager at all in 6 months since I joined a company. That's a problem that leaders need to address, that your managers are not taking the time to to meet with the team members. So I find that to be very helpful. So, hopefully, that gets, gets you started.

A Yeah. So I know you and we talked about this before we jumped on the show. So when we just say enterprise outside of the AEC industry, it usually means a very large company. So I I was at Slack and Salesforce. I recently left there. We definitely had a people operations team who did these type of surveys. You came from PayPal. You know, what size organization do you think you need to really be able to put something like data analytics to practice.

A And I think there's often concerns around from smaller organizations around anonymity in in responses. So what size, and then how do you handle anonymity for the smaller offices?

B Yeah. I would reverse that question, perhaps. Because, like, think about when you are starting a company or you're growing a team and maybe you have 5 people. As a leader of 4 people, you're probably pretty familiar with what's going on in everyone's work because there are only 4 of them. The question might be, at what point does asking everyone not make sense anymore, and you need a survey to help you with that. And it depends on how spread all the organization is, depends on how how much time people spend in the office, where you can talk to them in person or not. That number may be 50, that number might be a 100, that number may be 30. If you have a very global team for in for instance, it could be difficult to just from a even time zone collaboration perspective to have a chance to speak to everyone together.

B Right? There might be only 2 hour of overlap for the whole organization if it's very global. There could also be language and cultural challenges that make it more difficult. So I don't have a golden number, but I think the question is, at what point does it no longer make sense to ask individual person and have those conversations where data analytics can help by making that mechanism easier so that you can get the data you need. Now I think you bring up a separate question around, you know, keeping it anonymous. And psychological safety is the the the topic that comes to my mind when when you say that. Right? Because in an organization where you feel safe in speaking up, frankly, you probably don't need to hide who's answering what. But the reason that most organizations do is certainly to protect the identity of employees who may be having a hard time with perhaps a particular leader, perhaps a situation at work where they otherwise would not speak up. And so I think when ultimately, if there's no psychological safety, even if you make it anonymous and no one can find out who said what, it's still really difficult to get truthful responses because people are afraid.

A I think we can easily go back, like, down the rabbit hole with with this. Because I've known, for instance, and I've actually talked to a few leaders in the architecture industry. They actually they know they're bad leaders, and they almost don't want to do the survey to to find out the truth. It's not like they're horrible leaders. I think in their head, they know that they can do a lot of growth, or they know that the company has grown too fast, and there's, like, a feeling that it's gotten a little bit out of their own comfort zone. So how do you talk to people that are kind of afraid of knowing the truth? How do you talk to them from either a business case or a human case about why this is so important and about this mindset of growth and and learning?

B Yeah. You know, the question is really simple. I just ask, would you rather know? That's it. Would you rather know or would you rather not know? So if the answer is I would rather not know, then that means they won't do anything with the data no matter what it says. And at that point, I actually suggest not doing the survey. So, you know, people have all kinds of rules about what a good survey is. And I only have one really simple rule, which is if no action or decisions will be made based on the response to this particular question or survey, we're not doing it. That's it.

B Because it's a waste of not necessarily just my time, but as the survey designer and, you know, with this person, but also to the employees who are filling it out To people who are giving you feedback, if you are not going to change anything, then then really don't don't do it because it's going to cause even more frustration when you are asked, and then nothing changes. So so I think, you know, when I ask that question, would you rather know, most leaders I run into would say, okay. I know it's going to be tough, but I would rather know. So we work work through what exactly are we going to do about potentially not so positive news from from a survey. What are we going to do about that? Whether it's a development plan for particular leaders or additional follow-up with employees who have been working for not so great leaders. Right? That that plan can start even before if we're anticipating some problems already. And then, really, what I've also seen is sometimes there's fear of, you know, this data is now somewhere that's, you know right? Is is there going to be legal action? Is this going to become evidence for legal action? I think that's ultimately the fear in, especially large organizations who might have a lot of cash at stake if they get sued. And totally totally legitimate concern.

B So so there are many ways to go about that. Of course, you can also hire a a third party to come in and just have interviews instead of, you know, instead of, data, a survey, and so on and worrying about who's going to tell the truth, who is not. Maybe have someone completely unbiased. Also, the company come in and just sit down with employees on an individual basis and ask them what's going on, how they are experiencing that leader day to day. That's one way to do it too. Right? And then that person, that vendor, can summarize the findings from the interview and then share it with senior leaders without disclosing who came to the interview, who said what, and so on. So I can see the alternative approach.

A Yeah. I definitely so I've been in organizations and I actually used to do a lot of, you know, I was a workplace strategist. We did a lot of these type of surveys too. As part of my MPA courses, and we spent a whole semester and honestly, it probably wasn't enough around the science behind asking the question and making sure they're not leading leading questions right when it comes to to designing surveys. But one thing I learned is that what you do after a survey can actually build trust and build the right type of culture and make good culture change within an organization. My question for you is how you know, is there a time frame that, like, you have to have the survey done and then you begin to act on the findings of the survey that if you languish for too long that you begin to lose trust and take things in the other direction?

B Yes. Well, the the answer is as soon as possible, which I know is is difficult sometimes. One of the questions I get a lot is how many surveys should I run a year? And my question back to the team is always, how quickly can you act on the survey? You should not run another survey before you have completed the actions, and people feel the impact from the changes. If that is 3 months for you, great. If that's 6 months, if that's a year, if that's 2 years, you know the answer to that. It's probably not 2 weeks. So unless you're asking, you know, one simple question about snacks in the break room and you can immediately provide it. Great.

B But chances are for those larger cultural issues, it might take time to to address. So I think it's equally important to also share, sometimes organizations forget this part is that they do the analysis on the survey findings. They put action in place, and then they forget to tell the employees. So it's really important to have that communication as if because of what you said, we didn't think about think of this in in some vacuum in a conference room. But because of your feedback, we have created these changes for you to make your experience at work better. And then measure it again and see if those items do change. See if people are feeling the impact. And sometimes I would throw in question around whether or not people believe that their feedback is is going to be impactful and influential.

B Again, it's tricky because as the score is usually not as high as people hoped. So so I might ask something around. I believe actions will be taken based on my feedback in the survey or something like that, but I will be very direct about it, and it's something I might ask on multiple surveys. Because when you see that score drop or increase, you know you are doing worse or better on your action action taking, not just action planning. So I think a lot of companies are really good at the action planning, but the action taking is what takes time. And and by the time people actually feel an impact too, well, that still might take some time. So plan in advance for how quickly you can take actions and then how quickly people can feel the impact before before you run the next one.

A A lot of companies, back to this whole, like, office conversation, have been doing what I used to call it, like, pulse surveys to, like, you know, And and I feel like, you know, those could happen on a on a monthly basis sometimes because they're, like, 2, 3 questions. How do you come up with a strategy? I feel like it has to be a whole purposeful survey strategy around what you're measuring, the questions you're asking, what you hope to do, how you hope to change. Where do you get even get started on that?

B Right. So the poll surveys, typically are complementing those larger, longer, and less frequent surveys, and they're more targeted, what they're asking. So they might be shorter, could be one question, could be 3 question. At one point, I did do a daily survey, and that may seem like a lot, but, really, I had a set of questions that was rotating. So maybe today, I asked about your experience with your manager. Tomorrow, I asked about how your commute is into the office. Maybe the following day, I'll ask you whether or not you can find lunch easily. So every day is going to be different.

B Why do I do that? Well, 1, no one wants to be bored. I mean, like, Even in answering survey, I don't want to be bored. So part of the rotating keeps the question interesting for people who are taking it and also allows me the chance to get at different aspects of employee experience without sending a, you know, 20 question survey every single day that would easily, fatigue everyone. So there are many different ways of designing that, but, again, I go back to focusing on what problem figuring out what problem you you want to address first. Are you hearing like, do you want to do a survey because you're hearing a lot of noises around the experience in the office? What is it related to? Is it interaction with other people? Is it the noise? Is it ability to find food? Is it ability to find a quiet space? So those can all be different. It could also be, well, we used to have lots of on-site training. We don't have those anymore. Where we used to have a lot of mentoring that's more interactive, and we don't have that anymore.

B So whatever those signals that prompt you to want to do a survey in the first place, focus on those problems that you want to solve. And and then that can help you design the pulse survey, however frequent you want to do that, and and really then focus on the, you know, a few pillars and then design questions by those pillars.

A What if I'm a firm owner and I'm afraid to ask a question that I don't wanna get the answer to because I can't afford the solution. So in architecture, for instance, I know wonderful leaders who would love to give their employees more time away when they start new families, whether they're adopting, whether they have their children, or employees like me who are, like, struggling with being kind of the sandwich generation. Right? I'm dealing with end of life on my parents' side, but I also have young kids at home. But we run our business so slim that we can't afford to keep a lot of people on overhead. So I just don't wanna survey them because I can't I don't have a solution.

B I I agree. And and I, you know, I I I feel you. That that is something that holds a lot of companies back from even doing surveys around return to office because they're afraid that they can't meet the needs that employees share back, whether it's a subsidy for commute, right, or additional flexibility. It could be time off. It could be something else. But, again, I go back to would you rather know, and it comes down to the communication. Right? Because we we all have needs to be heard as humans fundamentally, whether it's at home, in a relationship, or at work. And so for employees to feel heard, instead of ignoring the elephant in the room, which is like, hey.

B In big cities like San Francisco and Chicago, commuting is really time consuming and very expensive, and it creates lots of problems. Instead of ignoring that, why why don't we ask and then come up with some solutions? It may not be the perfect solution, but I think if the leadership team is coming from a place of care, genuine care that we want to do something about this issue. We know commute is difficult, for instance. We know you want more flexibility and more time off. We can perhaps not afford 6 months time off that's paid for everyone, but here's what we can do. And then communicate. Right? Again, going back to communication, communicate that back to the the employees and say, we heard you. This is what we heard that you you're asking for.

B And because of the budget situation, we cannot get there right away, but here's what we can do right now. And then really invite the employees into the conversation at that point. Right? You know, at this point, there's not more surveys to ask. Are you happy with the new solution? No. Just have additional conversations about this temporary solution or a cost effective solution that we can afford right now as a business, is it helping you at all? If the employees are saying, look, it's really, it's a little bit helpful, so thank you. Great. Keep doing it. If the employees say, look.

B It's not really doing anything. It's still not helping me at all. Then stop spending your money on that item and move on to a new solution. So, you know, yeah. So I'll keep repeating myself, but would you rather know? Again, in those touch points, would you rather know how people are responding to your your solution that is affordable to you? And hopefully, the answer is yes because it's worse to not know. So in in most cases.

A I do think you touched on an important point there because I think no matter what size of business that you have, like understanding or ensuring that the employees see the value of what you are spending on the money Yes. On money for employee benefits are are are really important. Like, if it is truly, in fact, more important for them to have, you know, a stipend for wireless at home than it is to have some fee for Uber to commute into the office. That's 2 things around how you can work, but you might could easily trade one for the other.

B Right. Right. Exactly.

A If if the employee sees higher value in it.

B Right. For sure. And and I think we are sometimes afraid of, not being able to make every employee happy, so we don't we don't ask. The truth is you probably can't make every employee happy. So there's not, you know, I, I remember one not so great survey. This is a what not to do in the survey story. We had someone in commercial real estate within the office do a survey, essentially asked everyone to describe, you know, because we're doing some remodeling, ask everyone to describe their dream office space. Oh.

B Well, guess what? So everyone everyone wanted their own corner office and access to a conference room that's fully equipped for any meeting that's private.

A Yes.

B And an additional phone booth for just, you know, noise cancellation headphones to to have very private conversations. That would have been, I don't know, $10,000,000,000 probably for to build out. Yeah. That's totally not feasible. But it's great to know that we all like, nice things. So so yeah. So so there are lots of ways to design a survey. I I I definitely think it's helpful to to think about what can be actionable beforehand, And then also just prepare yourself to to it's okay to not make everyone happy.

B No one has that kind of budget these days. And, most importantly, to make sure you communicate back and, and let them know they are hurt.

A So I used to run this game. You're reminding me of a game that we used to run that you can kind of change the parameters around as as a response to kind of what we're talking about for smaller skilled companies. So a for instance would be that we we did a similar survey with with student body around their student experience at UC Santa Cruz. So we didn't instead of talking about money, we talked about slugs, and we gave them each, like, you know, a certain amount of slugs. And then we placed value on a certain things that were relative to to housing. Like, for instance, it would cost us more slugs to have something in their dorm than it would for it to be a community amenity. So I'm wondering if there's something similar that we can play from an office experience where where then you you give a group of people, a team, these relative value measurements and this fake currency, and then have them have a realistic conversation about how they would prioritize Yeah. The currency against what they want, to actually get to their own benefits package.

A And I think that that's something that you might be able to do in a in a firm size that's smaller.

B Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think what what is difficult is, you know, obviously, if you choose a combination a and I choose combination b Mhmm. But then we have to work in the same space. That's going to be difficult.

A Oh, no. No. It's really like giving the employees an opportunity to talk to one another about how they would collectively prefer to spend it.

B Okay. So they do have to okay. So they do have to come to an agreement Yeah. How collectively. Got it. Okay. I missed that part. Yes.

B Yeah. That could be interesting. That could be interesting.

A How do you take things from the survey back to the HR perspective and help managers be better? How do you help somebody with a lack of self awareness? Because I've definitely have managers, and I've definitely have leaders that aren't necessarily self aware. And some of them don't even wanna believe the data. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on what you do in those type of situations?

B It is very hard to make someone who is not self aware suddenly become self aware. There almost needs to be a burning platform, some kind of reason for that person to want to. And and what I've learned over the years is people will change when they want to change. People will change when they want to change, not when you present a lot of convincing data, not when you even tell a great story about the data. No. People will change when they want to change. So that leader who may not be self aware will not necessarily change their self awareness until they want to. That means either, you know, something something that they want, they can no longer want, like a promotion, like keep leading the team.

B There needs to be some change that that will prompt that. It's really odd for me to say this is a data person, but, like, for real, data itself doesn't change behavior and it doesn't change minds, yeah, by by itself at least. And it has to be yes. So storytelling, which is the topic that I talk about, that that certainly helps because our brains respond to stories. But ultimately, if someone like, think about that that leader. If everything in my life is great, I have the job that I want and I have the pay that I want. I'm leading the team that I'm happy with. Why would I change? Why would I change? Yeah.

B So there's gotta be some sort of change in the system to to prompt that to happen. I don't think sharing the data saying you are a really bad leader and sharing in front of them will make them suddenly want to be better. Because I I I run into a lot of different managers in in my life ranging from people with really high EQ and great leaders who actually share their manager feedback survey publicly with the whole team as a group discussion on, you know, this is what surprised me. This is what I'm proud of. I will make I will make these changes. What do you think? And that's a very healthy, strong leadership. Not everyone is there, and and it's just, I I think there's no magic bullets, but ultimately, the people who want to change will change.

A So that was a lesson that I wish I would have learned when I was younger, honestly. I think there are so many different, and I've had friends work at different firms where they they love their project, and and they they they really wanted to believe that things could change in the firm. And ultimately and they really wanted to believe that they could be the source of that change in the firm. And I think, ultimately, no matter how much you want to believe that, that type of change is out of your control. And at that point, you need to really think about what is in your control and what changes that you need to make in your own life to get to a better place.

B Yeah. For sure. I agree. Control what you you can control. And and I really, you know, I I stand by this. No no job or career is worth your mental health. Health. And if it's a manager that is making your life so miserable, then take into your own hands to find a better situation.

B You know, I I I think we are probably, at this point, all her horrible stories. And and when I say data itself doesn't change mine, it's not just for people who are not good with data. It's also for very quantitative savvy people. And, I I've seen an organization where there was a toxic leader, the whole team provided feedback, collected evidence even on how badly this person treated them. And they share these evidence with the one over one leader in the c suite. And, what happened was, everyone on the team eventually left because because the leadership team decided not to do anything with it and felt like that leader was contributing a lot of value to the company. So so I think it comes down to that business decision sometimes, and it's unfortunately just, you know, like I said, it it's difficult. And I don't, you know, I don't have the full story, but but I know how how how terrible the the team members must have felt when they try to speak up, when they try to say something, when they collect the data to share, hoping for a different outcome.

B And I'm sure things like that happens in, you know, on smaller or larger scale in different organizations. Right? And the the question is, what are you willing to do as an individual if you're on that team? What kind of fight do you want to put up with? Or do you control what's in your control, which is doing things like build your personal brand network and find a new job. Yeah. Or build other income streams. Right? Because ultimately, there's a lot that's beyond our control. My dream is that every person who manages the team in any organization is required to see a therapist and a coach at least twice a year. Just like you will go to a doctor for a checkup on your physical and go to a dentist for cleaning, I think for leadership, for emotional mental health, anyone who leads a team deserves that kind of support and feedback and guidance and help that we don't traditionally provide. Like, this is not some leadership training.

B This is not a technical training to make you better at, doing something with data and design. No. Really something for you as as a leader because I I have found going back to self awareness that you said earlier, I have found that people in my circle who have gone to, see a therapist and a coach or one of 1 of the 2 had become much more self aware. So like I said, I don't have a magic bullet, but I know I know in those kind of conversations, having those kind of reflections really helps people become more self aware.

A Talk to us about the difference between a coach and a therapist and what each provides.

B So a coach is someone who guides you through perhaps problems that you're having in your life or your career. So that different kind of coaches could be a life coach, or it could be a career coach that's focused on career. So typically or fitness coach. Right? Wellness coach. So coaches usually focus on different areas in your life that you want to improve. So you might be stuck. You might want to get unstuck with, a coach. And oftentimes, the the belief is and, by the way, I also got certified as a coach last year.

B One of the beliefs is that you I don't know you better than you. And you have to answer within you if I provide you with the right framework and questions to ponder, then then you can get there. Why is that important? Well, think about the last time someone asked you, told you to do something. Did you immediately say, oh, yes. Let me do that. Great. Probably not. Right? But think about the last time you arrived at something that you want to do.

B That's very different. So there's a lot of power in coming up with a solution yourself, and a coach can help help you really uncover areas that you haven't thought of by asking really reflective, thought provoking questions. And so, again, like, different areas. A therapist, on the other hand, is a licensed mental health issues and help you through the through different therapy options. And that could be more behavioral based. It could be cognitive. It could be in the group setting. There are there are lots of options there.

B So they serve different purposes in in my mind. And and, personally, I find it helpful to see both. 1 for, you know, really just more focus more on professional career side and the other more personal, but it doesn't have to be that way. And some of the suggestions they provide may actually overlap. But, again, they have very different training and background, and they'll likely come up with, different perspectives for for you. And and really, sometimes I I also recommended to people who feel like they don't have anyone to talk to. Like, no one really understands what I'm going through, and and that's a great great way to talk to someone in a, you know, complete confidential setting.

A And is there anything else, like, a a final takeaway for listeners that you might wanna throw in?

B Yes. Gosh. Take care of your health for sure. That is the most important, both physical and mental. And don't ignore the data is my my final advice. Don't ignore the data. And I shared this on LinkedIn the other day that seem to resonate with a lot of people. How you feel on Sunday night is all the data you need.

B How you feel about your job on the next day, whether that's excitement, you can't wait to go to bed, feel rested, and tackle next week, or that pit in your stomach that won't go away. Those are the data points that you need to either make a change or continue on your path.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com /podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h, we'd love to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.