The Unconventional CEO: From Global Marketer to Insightful Design Leader

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome back to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're speaking with someone who brings a unique and unconventional perspective to the world of architecture. Our guest, Rolf Proven, is currently the CEO of Luckett and Farley, an architecture engineering and interior design firm. Rolf's journey to this leadership role is anything but traditional.

A He has spent his career driving client focused innovation and change for some of the world's biggest brands. Think Shell, Coca Cola, and Volvo. As a creative dot connector, he's deeply in tune with the design community and understands the transformative power of an interdisciplinary approach. Since joining Luckett and Farley, Ralph has been instrumental in defining the company's purpose and vision, advocating for design central role, not just within the firm, but in the broader community and region. In our conversation, we explore Ralph's career path, discussing how his diverse experiences have shaped his leadership style, and where he sees the biggest opportunities for our industry to drive meaningful change. Hi, Ralph. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us here on Practice Disrupted.

B Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and excited looking forward to the conversation.

A Yeah. So we'd like to do a little icebreaker every time we start up an episode. So this season, I've been asking our guests, you know, is there something an interesting fact that you might want to share that's not in your formal bio that can be relevant to this conversation, or it might be completely irrelevant of the conversation?

B Okay. Well, I don't know how relevant it will it's relevant to me. It may not be obvious to other people that it's relevant, so I'll share it. But I have lived during my life and my career in in 8 different countries on 5 continents, and I speak 3 languages fluently and 3 others a little bit. So there you go. So we'll we'll see how relevant that is as we go through. I'm gonna speak mostly in English during this conversation, but, but

A I I appreciate that. I'm horrible at languages. I'm listening to Adam Scranton's book, Hidden Potential, and he has this very particular little piece of it on linguists. Right. And the fact that a lot of these multilingual individuals actually learn languages as an adult, by leaning into being uncomfortable in order for them to learn. So I'm trying to one learn something from that book. But I've always said that I was horrible at languages. But now, you know, maybe it's not too late.

B Well, so the second of those three languages I learned the no. Sorry. The third one. I started when I was 28. And it was uncomfortable.

A Yes. So one of the reasons why I was so interested in having you here, and we met at a Christopher Kelly leadership development program put on by a IA Kentucky was because you're a CEO of an architecture and engineering firm, Luckett and Farley. But you actually don't have a background in architecture, which I think is highly unusual. And we might even talk about that, that an individual with your background should find yourself in the position of CEO at an a and e firm. So I would love to hear, or at least have our audience here and our listeners hear a little bit more about about that background that you have and kind of how you found your way to look at Infraely.

B So I and if I go all the way back to early teens, the school I was at had a nonacademic kind of class to do technical drawing. And I was probably 12 or 13 when I started doing it, and because it was nonacademic, I was discouraged by my parents from pursuing it, but I loved it. I I I loved it, and I was good at it as well. And, that that's a rare combination for me. But I I I left it behind, and, and so I didn't really think too much about that. But as I as I ran through my life, really unconsciously, I was always attracted to to design in different ways. And, I spent, you know, a fair bit of time when I was in college. I I lived in Paris, and it's hard to be in Paris and not pay attention to the what what's surrounding you from in terms of the built environment, especially if you're interested in that.

B And and I and like I said, I didn't have a an educated interest in it, but I had a a a a layman's interest in it, and I was attracted to it and paid attention to it. So that's, I guess, sort of where the the the foundation began, and and I didn't really know at that time how that was gonna play back into my life later on. So later in my career, I've done a a lot of different things, mostly marketing and innovation driven in lots of different kinds of industries. So I would say that what sort of cons consistent in my career is diversity of of business, of business models, of industries, of country, of culture. I'm a curious person, so I think that's probably at the at the root of it for me. And I had been part of a startup, which hadn't been able to raise enough money to continue, and so I I left and started thinking, you know, what what am I going to do next? And probably for the first time in my life, I reflected much more deeply about what I was passionate about and, design in some shape or form kinda came to the top of the list, and so I started looking for opportunities to to fulfill that. And, Luckett and Farley is in the town where I live in Louisville, Kentucky. And I knew the name.

B That was really most of what I knew at that point. And I had seen an ad that they were looking for a a marketing professional to help them out, and, I met with the CEO. And it became clear to me in our conversations that we both arrived at a similar idea about what it looks like to be successful as an architecture firm from completely different perspectives. He's, you know, 30 year experienced, a very talented architect. I have practically no understanding of architect as a discipline, but from a brand marketing and innovation point of view can kind of arrive at some of the same places just from a more business strategy point of view. So we we became I think very quickly, we realized that we could help each other, and he created a new position and invited me to join the company. Outside of that, I'm I'm a brand person at heart, I suppose, as well as a design person. And Luckett and Folly is is the oldest continuously operating firm in the US, and it is a it's sort of an iconic brand in the region.

B And so that side of it also was attractive to me to see what we could do with a with an iconic brand that has that has been around for a long time.

A One of the things that is often criticized by professionals in our industry, obviously, is low pay, low value, and you work in a lot of industries that is known for paying their people livable, you know, sustainable living wages, and having decent benefits. So obviously, you've been in the startup world, and there's risk associated with startups and joining that, but did you even think twice kind of about, and I imagine you had to take a pay cut, joining the the A and E world.

B No. So I took a pay cut. It it was a a pretty big drop down for me to to do what I did. I did it because I was passionate, and I would say I was fortunately in a position where I could I had saved through my career and, that that was not a concern. So not everybody I recognize is in is in that position. Nevertheless, I, you know, I I do care about a living, and I believe that you should. And so this is not a not a charitable thing. It was really a a way for me to enter into something, that I really wanted to do.

B So I think it's important to me now. At at that point, I did not anticipate becoming the CEO of the company. But from the beginning, I remember, Eric Andrew, who's the person who hired me saying, you know, this is a this is a really difficult business. This is a difficult career. And I've heard people from different industries say things like that to me before, but I don't think I've ever appreciated. I've not seen it to the extent that I see it in in the in the design industry. I mean, it's hard. And so and he had an an interest in exploring ways to to mitigate that, and and so do I.

B And so as a person who doesn't really do very well just accepting things how they are, you know, it was kind of like a red rag to a bull for me. It's like, we've gotta figure this out. We've got to understand and find a way. And, you know, and I I'm not arrogant enough to think that everyone in the world has been you know, has not tried this before. I think it's really hard. I think it's really difficult. But I believe, like, with a lot of things, you've gotta want to do it. And so because I started out my career in advertising, it made me feel like there's at least a chance that it can be done.

B Right? Advertising has some similarities. It's a creative pursuit. You're selling a creative product, essentially, to people who wanna make money out of what it is you're selling, which certainly if you're selling to real estate developers or, is is the case. But they're able to command a premium for what they do, and they're able to differentiate their creative services. Now they also occasionally work insanely long hours, but it's not all the time. And they're also client facing, so they're they need to be responsive. So there's some similarities there. And there's, you know, some some of the same challenges are faced by that industry.

B I mean, I think that they what they've been successful in is getting paid a lot more money for what they do. And so that to me has always been something to look at is, you know, if you're gonna work hard, then let's make it worthwhile and and at least make a living. And I and I I wanna counterbalance that. You know, I I think it's also important that what we do matters. And so it is not about making as much money as we humanly can. It's about making enough to make it worth doing and to be rewarded appropriately for what you do. And I think that that at the end of the day is for me is the goal and hopefully to provide some balance in your life. That that's the other thing that stood out to me.

A Right. I I was gonna say, you know, I I kinda wanna lean into this idea of that it that it's so much harder in in architecture. So you've talked that I mean, you've alluded a little bit to it. Right? Like the the value that we get paid for the services that we are delivering. You know, what are some other things that you think makes it potentially so much harder now having been in the AUC world a little bit longer?

B So I I think there are some and I've I've I've worked with lots of professionals in lots of different industries, and I and I find there are some common threads. So one of them is that, this is the way it is, and this is the way you have to do it. And and if you're an outsider, you you probably just wouldn't understand this. And I and I don't dismiss that. I have a lot of respect for all the professionals in different professions I've worked with. But I think it it's also if you're practicing, it's hard sometimes to step back and say, can we look at how we do this? And the thing that stands out to me more than anything is the ability to do it efficiently. Because I think if you can reduce the amount of time it takes to do something, then there is a way to provoke to be productive and therefore profitable and to have a quality of life. And and I think most people I speak to believe that they've they've already done that.

B And and it's not that they've made no effort in that regard. I think they they have. But I think they often don't use the tools that perhaps other industries and other businesses have have applied. And so the legal industry went through this, probably a decade ago or maybe longer, where they started to realize that technology, efficiency, how they work, and they started hiring people, what they call them legal operations folks inside their companies to focus on the operation, not not the delivery, not so much of the of the service, but how how the wiring in between the things that happen needs to happen. You know, how do you do discovery, document discovery? How do you automate that? And I, like I said, I think a lot of the progressive firms in the country are looking at things like that. It's happening. People are doing it.

A Thank you for allowing me to take a little bit of that detour. So we talked about kind of you entering Luckett and Farley from the marketing side. But a few years later, you found yourself in the role of CEO, which you mentioned you didn't anticipate when you joined. What series of decisions kind of led up to that?

B So I had been at Luckett and Farley, probably 4 years, I think, by the time this conversation came up, and then and it had probably been evolving. I'd been given some responsibilities that were broader than marketing prior to that, and I had actually had some design professionals reporting up to me through that before that, which was that was already a big a big deal and a pretty big departure. And so that that was not my idea. That was, Eric's idea, and, and the the thinking there was that the design people know how to design. You know, they they they I just the people who were reporting directly to me were very experienced, and they were sort of leading pursuits and leading relationships with clients. So, really, the idea was that I would help them in that area to help develop their client skills, client relationships, how to win the work, but also with a view to how does that flow through the process of of design and and making money and being efficient and meeting clients' needs? And so my background, really, more than anything, is how do you align a business to the client? And so by moving some of those folks underneath me, we started to have discussions about how does this how does this relate to what our clients need and how do we how do we go about that. So that was the beginning. And then I think the other thing that happened was and I remember a conversation that Eric and I had about, and I can't remember the specific instance, but he noticed something I was doing and asked me, you know, where did where did you learn how to do that? And it was more of a leadership or a managerial type thing.

B I thought about it a little bit, and I realized that from the beginning of my career, I've always worked inside of sort of what I would call traditional businesses. There's been a focus from whoever was leading or managing me on my skills as a manager and a leader and a team member and a collaborator, and I have had that drilled into me for a really long time. And while and when I look at his career, what he's had to drill had drilled into him is how do you design things, how do you design them better, how do you, you know, how do you not get sued for them, how do you, make sure that they're incredibly wonderful structures, how what are all the millions of things you need to learn to put a to put a an incredible building together and and make it, you know, make money for the the firm. So that's what his focus had been. But he really wasn't a sort of an accidental manager and leader rather than a deliberate one.

A Which is the position in a place where a lot of leaders, I think, in architecture firms find themselves for all of the reasons that you just listed.

B Yep. Yeah. And so so at that point, you know, he was like, would he asked me, would you would you ever consider, you know, leading this firm? And I had several reactions to that. One was abject fear because it did seem like a really big leap. I was still learning how the how the industry works, and, obviously, I'm not gonna pretend to try and learn how to how to design anything, but at least how the business works and how the market works and how the client works. And I was I was concerned about whether I would be credible as a leader to our professionals, to our engineers, and to our architects, and our landscape architects and our interior designers. Like, would they trust me or any non design professional to to lead the firm? And then the other thing is I was just afraid I would fail. So so I had a lot of fear.

B I wasn't convinced that it was what I wanted to do, and we talked about it for a little while. And, I I guess it was one of those things that I I just sort of put to the side and thought maybe it might come up again, it might not. And Eric brought it back up, and we discussed it some more. And in the end, when I I agreed to say yes, I frankly agreed to say yes like you step off a cliff. It it felt like I've been asked to do it. It's been put in front of me. This this is where I'm supposed to go. This is what I'm gonna do.

B And I and I really didn't know what was gonna happen next entirely, to be honest.

A And how many years ago was that now?

B That was two and a half years ago. It was in February 2022.

A Okay. I mean so it's also kind of an interesting time, you know, coming out of the the pandemic and a lot of changes in how we are working generally, and people getting I mean, it's very hard for anyone to get comfortable with change, but just just a lot of change because of that. I think that everyone's trying to figure out where we are on the other side of this huge global event. So how has it been since?

B So I think the beginning was pretty hair raising, and it was because of what you just said. Coming out of the pandemic, to your point, everyone had already been through a monumental amount of change personally, and the way we've been working throughout the pandemic was completely different. And that that's part of what led to the discussions that Eric and I had. I think he's he noticed that it was much easier for me to adapt to that than it was for him. And I think that wasn't so much a personal thing as it was, he's a he's an architect. He's been doing it for a long time, and he's used to being together with people as part of the process of of of creation and collaboration or in in the design process. I, on the other hand, will spend a large part of my career not being in the same place and often not even in the same country as the people I manage or I'm being managed by, but I'm not I've not been working on a on a design process that that require you know, needs that sort of intensity. And so for me, when we when we went remote, I the first thing I did, and it was instinctive and it wasn't a it's not a a book I read or something that someone taught me to do.

B My first thought is, how am I gonna keep in touch with the people that I work with, and how's that gonna work? And so we instituted a 15 minute check-in every single morning by video conference. And we hadn't been meeting in 15 minutes in person before that. You know? So so, actually, if anything, our communication and our interaction actually improved immediately out of the out of the pandemic. And so that was something that I did that you know, and I I'm sure other people have done similar things. I don't think it's unique, but it it it made a difference. And he he realized that there were things so that so how I dealt with that, and I believed in our ability to do it from the beginning. We went we sent everybody home. I wasn't afraid of that.

B I wasn't afraid that we could do it. I think the other thing that happens that's really important, and I think I I don't know if other people have the same conclusion, but I think the difference also in the way we handled that was a way of trusting what other people are doing. It's hard to work remotely and if you don't trust what what people are gonna do. So what we learned, I think, in that period of time is you can. You absolutely can trust them, you know, and there are people that that will lose your trust and then you will take the actions you need to take. But most professionals are responsible, driven, educated people who can figure out how to organize them their time and work independently at the time that makes sense to them to get work done, and that's what we learned. And so coming out of the pandemic, that was the thing that I think we started to realize we can leverage this, and so that was probably the big first thing that I leaned into. We were also struggling to find talent.

B People had, you know, changed jobs. There weren't enough architects and engineers in Louisville. And so we combined those two things, and we've committed to to a hybrid approach to our work from the day we went back to work after the pandemic. We well, we we didn't stop working. We just this we opened our office, but we didn't require anyone to go there. We invested pretty heavily in cloud based tools. We were already kind of 3 quarters of the way there, so we went the rest of the way there. And I would say we took it on as an experiment.

B I think we were waiting to see if it was a disaster early, and then since it wasn't, then we kind of became more confident and we and we kept going down that road. So that was probably the big thing that started. And I and I don't know, you know, if we would have done that if it hadn't been for the pandemic. There's been some controversy about that, internally. Can you do it? Can can you can the design process work this way? And it's interesting. One of the fundamental the the word that gets used over and over again is how do you mentor, in a virtual environment? And, that's been an on ongoing discussion now for 2 years. And so to kind of fast forward to today, we're actually we actually have a team of people at the moment working on the answer to the question, what is mentorship? And what do we expect it to be? And what do we expect it to look like? And what came out of the first discussion we had is so this is with, you know, 7 disciplines of engineers, architects, and designers of different kinds. That's so the leaders of the groups internally.

B And all of their professions believe in and sort of encourage a mentorship model. And I've had that shared with me since the day I joined this firm. You know, that's how this works. What's no one has ever shared with me is what is it, and and and how do you do it, and who's good at it, and who's not good? And so so the business part of me and the process side of me, because I've I've worked in sort of process improvement type areas a lot of the time, start it wants to break that down. So they've they've got a a book that they're sharing, and I don't think it matters what the book is. It's more just to provoke thinking about what is mentorship, what do we believe it should be. So one of the questions that came out of our first meeting on this was, is mentorship just about technical skills? And I think the answer for the team that they came to was that, no, it's not. And so then, well, then what else is it? And something that I I I believe in very strongly is that, ultimately, the interpersonal skills around what we do might be I don't know if they're more important, but they're equally important at least in terms of how we get from one end of the, you know, meeting a client all the way through to to a constructed building at the other end.

B There's so teamwork as a skill, communication as a skill, coordination as a skill. There's there's all kinds of other skills that go along with being good at architecture and engineering. So so then is what does mentorship look like? What does that process looks like? How do you teach someone to be a mentor? Not how do you mentor someone to design something. And so all of those conversations are are beginning, And it's not that nobody knows how to mentor or they've never done it before, but they've not collectively at least stepped back and and looked at and examined how they're how they're doing mentorship and how they teach mentorship to other people and what it is we're mentoring and why we're mentoring and to what end. So I think that's pretty exciting. It's, it's a maybe seemed like a small detail or maybe some again, I'm I'm sure other folks have had these ideas. We're not unique. But it just it's just a a greater intention focused on things like that.

B And part of that for us has to be because of the decision we've already made, how to do that in remote circumstances. So how do I mentor someone who's not physically where I'm at? What kind of tools and technology am I going to need to support that, and what kind of tools am I gonna need to support a remote design process or a creative process?

A Yeah. What what is interesting to me is I always feel like architects talk about this all the time. Right? The the biggest thing about a flexible hybrid virtual environment is mentoring the next generation. And then, you know, I look back at my my own personal mentorship, and it's really, you know, throw them into the deep end, see if they can swim, learn by doing, you know, and I was partnered with principals usually, because I was able to anticipate what they want before they asked. So I tended, no matter where I worked, I tended to be placed on the most difficult teams, just because I was good at anticipating things. But that didn't have anything to do with like, helping me learn and grow as an individual and actually receiving proper mentorship or leadership. So so just the I appreciate the extra intentionality that you're putting around it, because I don't think we've we've actually really placed any intentionality around mentorship in in a meaningful and helpful way for the most part.

B Yeah. Well, it's early days. So we're we're having the discussion and and even even having the discussion. Honestly, if we do nothing else, I think we've at least highlighted the awareness already that that this is it's sort of a word we take for granted. And so part of the the other piece of the discussion came around the the perceived inability for us to to mentor remotely. And and the the question I asked is, how well are we mentoring? Were we mentoring before the pandemic? How good at it were we? Was it enough? And and and my supposition was that if we really focus on how to mentor remotely, we might. It's it's not maybe that high of a bar for us to mentor better remotely than we were re mentoring in person before the pandemic.

A Right. I often cringe at the it's it's like mentorship through osmosis. Right, by being in the studio, by overhearing others take calls, you're you're learning. And then I recall all the times that I walked into studios pre pandemic, and I would have been one of those individuals if I were a computer headset on listening to music, doing the work, not taking in anything by osmosis. So, you know, was was that truly happening?

B So it's interesting, and and I I think they're so I I think it's very easy in these conversations to have a sort of an all or nothing conversation about almost anything. And so I I don't ignore that that has happened, can happen, does happen. And, again, I think it happens better when it's intentional. So I worked for I actually worked with a and for a gentleman earlier in my career who his first job, the CEO of the company had him sit in his office with him so that he could just hear what a CEO does. And he shared with me, you know, how much how valuable that was to him, but that was very intentional. And it wasn't forever. It was for a period of time. And and I actually recently heard from one of our employees who'd sat next to actually my predecessor, Eric, and was like, wow.

B I learned so much from listening to him. So, again, I think you can create those opportunities. They don't have to be accidental. And so if that's valuable and if that's important, then make it happen. Don't trust that it might happen by accident. Take the accident out of it and make it make it a thing. And so to me, that's really what this is about is to is to go after the goal, not just, you know, say, well, it's much easier if we're all in the office. And and, honestly, I think the idea that we, quote, collaborate accidentally when we're in the office is kinda lazy.

B It's sort of like, well, if we put everyone together, I don't have to think about it. They just bump into each other, and I absolve myself of the responsibility to having to figure it out. And so this way, I think you really have to think about what do we want them to learn, who do they need to learn it from, how are they gonna learn it, and and it's about growth and development. And that really, at the end of the day for me, is is what all of this is about. If we do that well, everything else will take care of itself.

A So we talked a little bit about I mean, we've talked a lot about mentorship, which I appreciate, and I I almost wish Janine had been able to find time to join us on this call because my previous cohost would have definitely appreciated that as well. Is there any other things that you've really done to kind of change the mindset of how Luckett and Farley approaches these things since you've taken on the the CEO role?

B I think there's probably a couple of other things. One is the importance of the client, and it is again, that I I suspect anyone could listen to what I just said and said, yeah. Of course. We do that. And I think that also there are probably lots of people who are who are further ahead, in in regard to what I'm gonna say. And I've it seemed really important for me to say that I do not believe we are figuring out stuff that no one has figured out before. You know? I'm I'm new to this. We're not, you know, the greatest firm in the world.

B We have aspirations to be an awful lot better, and so I I just think it's important to put some context around that. The client first of all, the question we had to answer, is the client the top of the totem pole? Like, is that where everything ends up? Is that is that the top? And we had discussions about, well, is it the user? Is are they the client? Is it the person who's paying the bill is the client? How important are the employees? And and so all of those things are are important. But at the end of the day, our business succeeds and fails by whether we get paid money to do what we do. Right? That that is is and we don't have the opportunity to serve the people who live in the buildings or live in the communities or our employees if we don't meet that basic need. And so then the next question is also, how well do we understand the client? If we are gonna be client driven, what does that mean, and how do we ensure ourselves that we know what clients want? And, again, you know, people who've been in the industry for 30 years will will have a really good intuition for what that is. They've had lots of experience. It's not always easy to teach or write down. And so how do you better understand the client and use turn that into information that you can use to run your business better? And so one of the things that we are on the brink of implementing, and this is something I've done over and over again in countless different businesses and industries, is to put in place a mechanism to collect feedback from our clients about how we're doing.

B And it's not rocket science. We're not asking deep, profound questions. We're asking basic satisfaction questions and a few metrics on on how we do our work. And what it will allow us to do is measure our performance through the eyes of our clients. Not what we think it is, not how good we think it is, but how they think it is. So we're we're getting ready to do that. We'll we'll see how it goes. We'll hopefully at least have a metric internally every year for client satisfaction.

B I know already that we're not perfect, and, you know, like a lot of leaders in companies, I hear from clients when things don't go perfectly. I make it clear to our clients that they need to call me when that's the case, because and the and the reason I tell them that I wanna know that is we can't get better if we don't know. So to me, the only way we get better is to have an accurate understanding of what our clients think about how we're doing. And then we need an internal process to turn that into improvement. And so we made a decision last year to create a full time position, so a non billable position, responsible entirely for continuous improvement. And so their job essentially will be to help us prioritize and then implement the changes we need to make in processes or training or design or recruitment or whatever part of the business we feel it impacts to better need better meet the clients' needs and to improve. So the the fundamental basis for me, and probably also because we're an ESOP. So as an ESOP, which is an employee owned company for those folks who don't know what that is, our employees are own the company and are rewarded by increases in value in the company.

B And in order to do that, we have to grow our profit. And in order to grow, you have to get better. And so to get better every year, we need to look at what we do and how we do it and have a way to get so we need to know where we are, how we do things, and then how we're gonna do it differently and better next year. And our hope is that the that, part of the metrics of that will be how our clients feel.

A As an aside, I I kinda wanna ask, do you imagine that individual coming from the architecture field or coming from an outside field?

B So the person's already in place. So she's actually an interior designer by training, but she's run a range of different functions inside of Luckett and Fadi. So she's been a head of our interior design function. She's been a project manager. She's been a a client leader. So she understands the business well, but she's also very strong from a process point of view and an execution point of view of, I would say, business processes and design processes. That's what she's inclined towards. She's good at that, and so she helps us implement the change, train the change, document the change so that that as new people come into the company, they know how we do things.

A Great. Was there anything you did mention a few things, and we've gone over a few things. Is there anything else that you would love to touch on before we move on to the next subject?

B Yeah. I think the the other the only other thing is probably culture.

A That's no small thing?

B No. So the hybrid decision is a big part of that. I think that the why we do what we do is is really important. And there's not a person in our company who's not very passionate about design, but I think I and I've met very few design professionals who don't fall into this category. Most design professionals care about what they designed does. You know, how does it affect the world, the community? And so we, again, have have started thinking more more deeply about that and how what we do impacts things. And so that that's there's work still for us to do on that. We wanted to have essentially an emotional benefit from what we do, not just a functional one, and and we believe that design should do that.

B And I my background says to me that design is things that are designed well are more valuable than things that are not. I think there's proof of that, but, it it's just ingrained in me that that is true. And I think, actually, if there's a a weakness of the profession, it's our inability to prove that and convince people of that. And so that's that's something worthwhile for the long haul. But people must come to work for a reason. They must care about what they're doing. And so our goal is is that we bring joy to our clients and, ultimately, through the work we do for them to their employees, to the communities they serve. And that that's the that's the metric, and that that's actually embedded in part of our client survey.

B Are they and and I don't think we'll use the word joy with them, but, you know, are they getting something positive? Are we exceeding their expectations? Is the end result better than they thought it could be? And so and is it having a positive impact? And part of that has to be not just as designers, but as a company and as employees, what are we doing individually to advance things that matter to us culturally? And so there's really two things, our impact on the community and the communities where we work, because that that for us can be pretty far across the country, and then our impact on the climate and on the planet. And so to to make that instead of a thing that we can respond to so if you say, hey. I would I I need I need to meet a lead goal or design me a solar array or, you know, I want a passive house. Instead of it sort of being a kind of a menu item of things I might wanna purchase. I think, really, it's the other way around. What is our mission to help enable more sustainable design through different kinds of conversations with our clients about the financial benefits, about the brand benefits, about and so and and so that's that's a that's a different kind of conversation, and that's not been the way we've oriented it until now. And so I think it's being a more aggressive and more deliberate about building a capability to convince our clients that that is something that they can achieve despite what their their conceptions might be about cost and and other things.

A Yeah. I wanna get more tangible here. So, obviously, kind of there's a there's a mindset shift that you're trying to create with this culture change. What does that look like in terms of implementation at the project level, and and how is that done?

B Yeah. So so I think we're in the early days of it. So I'll tell you where where we're at. So let me talk about sustainability in particular. So so the first thing was to this. So it it's amazing how some small changes can enable people to act differently. So the first thing is by telling everybody and and, again, I think so many firms. There are thousands of firms probably that that are committed to sustainability and lot and some who do an amazing, amazing job of this, and and we're not we're not those folks yet.

B I think the first thing is for everyone to know that it's a priority and that they are gonna be supported and encouraged if they come forward with ideas and initiatives to support it so that it it frees you up to know that that's going to be seen positively, supported, approved of. So that was the first thing. So we we came up with 5 things that we we are we are, for the long haul, committed to, and sustainability was one of them. The other is that the part of the reason we we feel so strongly about it, one is we believe in it, but the other is we think as a multidisciplinary firm, we are better equipped to answer it. So while, you know, architecture is gonna lead typically the sort of conceptual framework of of a of a building design, you know, MEP plays a massive role in the delivery of performance, of building performance. And so, you know, by by bringing together the disciplines, you know, civil engineering is gonna have impact on the way we use water and so on. So if you aren't holistically thinking about it from a disciplinary point of view, so because we're multidisciplinary, we think sustainability, you know, unites those things, and then that gives us a better platform. So that was that was part of why we got to where we did.

B The next piece was to form a so a leader internally and not so much an external facing, but like and we have a very small group. And the first goal so that we did 2 things coming out of our strategic planning. 1 was to let everyone know that they should have sustainability goals for their department and for for their team where it's relevant. It won't always be relevant to everyone based on their role, but to to look at that. So I think most of our, disciplines have goals about training and development for different people. So some of it, it might be a certification. Some of them, it might be a skill thing. Some of them, it might be new areas to explain.

B So everyone and they were small for it wasn't these massive, you know, huge initiatives. So just everyone has got a a I'll call it a micro goal that addresses sustainability so we can move forward. And then that that same team was asked to come up with one goal for this year to kind of advance the idea within the company, and their decision was really that what we need is to decide where we're going. So what they're working on is what what is our long term goal in terms of our impact on climate. And I know, again, there are tons of initiatives out there. The AIA has one. Everyone else has one. We as a firm don't have one today.

B And the only other piece I think that was in there was to start to put some measurement things in there for our projects and for, sort of the easier things to chip away at, especially on the MEP side. There are some where you can start looking at energy star ratings and things like that. And so so it's sort of metrics, vision, and some ink small incremental goals to start just moving people along.

A Now what I appreciate about this conversation is we have a lot of younger listeners who I feel are internal change agents, right, they end up trying to be intrapreneurs within their firm that they're working in, because they don't have the leadership with the same vision. But here is a leader that I think, you know, at a very basic level still struggles with the same, getting things done at the implementation scale, just because it's just because a matter of changing things like culture, especially in affirm your size, with your history, that that change doesn't come easy for for anyone.

B No. And some you said something earlier that made me think about, I think, the most underestimated challenge, and I've seen this I've seen folks internally that I work with struggle with this. I see it in other businesses. This is not unique to architecture. Change management is not a small thing to take on. Any kind of change will fail if you don't bring people with you. And the processes and the communication and, frankly, the time to make that happen. You you can't just flick the switch and change everyone's mind and point in a different direction.

B It's it's really hard to do. And so alignment of people and bringing people along to do that is a is a difficult thing. So, you know, we spent 2 days lining this out. We've spent a lot of time thinking about the process for each of the priorities that we laid out as to how they and and, again, I know we're not unique in this, but it's it's slow. So we didn't try and boil the ocean. You know, we just we picked a thing for each of the 5 areas we decided to focus on. And there are things that shouldn't take a lot of time and are small and will move us forward.

A Yeah. No. I just think it's important for people to hear that no matter what position you are, no matter what your title is in any firm that engaging in any type of change throughout the firm is indeed a hard process.

B Yeah. And I and I hope, you know, that your listeners if you know, that they have someone they can go to who can help them understand how to help change happen. Because I I do see a lot of, great ideas, And I can't or my leadership team doesn't have the bandwidth to absorb every great idea that it happens in our company every day. And I know that's frustrating for people. It's like, I I got this. We can do this. And I and I don't wanna discourage that thinking, but I think what what I can do as a leader to help is to help them understand how to be effective in bringing ideas forward like that and helping them happen, which is very different than having the idea. And so that's a skill that I don't think is appreciated is is what it takes to sell an idea, to get others to buy into it, and to make the change happen.

B And so I think our leaders can teach their their teams how to do that. And I and I spend a a fair bit of time, with folks who will come to me with an idea and say, well, this is this is how you need to write something to describe it to other people, or this is how you need to get people to give you feedback, or this is how you can refine your idea and get buy in at the same time. And so those are just not like, to me, that's a that's a an explicit action skill. It it's not something that you kinda choose to do. You you have to do it.

A And it's a it's a learned skill. And I think, you know, that's something that I experienced very much being within tech. Right? Like, the moments you get with the executive team are so slim. And not only training yourself to say only the most meaningful things in a way that tells a story, but actually gets the point across, and it's memorable enough for them to hold on to it. And it's a lot to put into a package. And if I think about historically, what I am taught as an architect, how to defend a thesis, we create a lot of stuff in order to tell that story. So it's quite the opposite in terms of condensing it all down in order to institute change in an organization, or even get the attention of, of leadership. And this, by the way, is true of a lot of architects that come with me that have, you know, we need we need advice, we have this this startup.

A And usually, I just flip through what is like this 50 page pamphlet. And I was like, you don't actually have any financials here. So let's start with that. But the fact that it, like, it is 50 pages is is is something we need to work on too. So I have a question for you. I mean, obviously, you're engaging in in organizations like the AIA where other architect leaders are. So how has you being a CEO of an architecture in AEC or an AE firm with multiple studios, as you mentioned, but not being an architect. How are you received by your your pure CEOs?

B Mostly, I would say well. I think, though, some of that is due to the fact that I made, I made an intention to to kind of engage. I'm conscious. So first of all, let me let me step back and talk a little bit about the AIA because I think it'll give some context. I believe very strongly in most any industry that there is value in organizations that support a profession. Like, it it's it's an important part of any profession. And so to me, without knowing really a ton about the AIA or about the profession still, I'm still, you know, 6 years into this only, I think it is important for us to be respectful of, contribute to, and enhance that organization. And my experience also has been there are very few industry organizations that don't provide an immense value to their to their profession.

B And so personally, it just seemed like an obvious place for me to go. Now it's an organization for architects principally, and I'm not one. Yeah. And so I made a call, and I had thought about it before I became CEO, and I I regret I didn't do it earlier. But I I made a call to the director of our, the Kentucky AIA and asked, like, how does this work? I'm I'm leading an architecture firm. I'm not an architect, and so so I I became an associate member. And and I asked her how I can get involved. How can I help? I know I'm I'm not gonna be involved from a from a design perspective, and so I got involved in in 2 different things.

B One was the, legislative group, and the other was, I and the the second one I was invited to, and it'll answer your question about how was I accepted. So at the same time, I asked, Kelly Ives, who's the the director here in Kentucky, I asked her, you know, if there was some she could give me some of the contact information to some of the presidents of the other firms in the in the state. I knew who most of them were. You know, we they're competitors of ours. There it's a small community. We know who they are, but I didn't have contact information. And I asked her opinion if she thought there would be people who'd be more receptive or not because I hadn't met them. And I essentially cold called them and said, hey.

B I'd love to come and meet and chat. You know? And, I did. I went I went and met with, some of them, not all of them, and so there's some I still haven't met. And I would say I in every case, I was well received. I suspect that some of them were more skeptical than others, and and I don't think they were openly skeptical to me. But I'm I suspect there's I mean, if I was them, I would be I would be marketing the fact that their their major competitor is not led by a designer. That's, you know, how can they possibly know what they're doing? And and, fortunately, we are full of designers who know exactly what they're doing. So, so I I'm not too too worried about that.

B But, I think what one of the things that was really exciting to me was when one of the leaders of a firm in in Lexington, Kentucky, called me and said, hey. And this was after we'd met. We'd had breakfast together. And I I could tell that we had a a meeting of the minds because I think he's this extremely open minded person who recognizes the value of things outside of his his own profession. I didn't know how far that went until he called me and asked me if I would be cochair with him for an the inaugural Christopher Kelly leadership development program in in Kentucky. And I think that's a really big deal for him to ask me. I think it's kind of brave to invite someone who's not a professional in your profession to get involved in something that's that significant and important. And so I was both honored and humbled to be asked, but also more than anything kind of impressed by and the person I'm talking about is a gentleman by the name of Jeff Stivers who runs, Ross Tower Architects in in Lexington.

B I was amazed that he he would have the idea to ask me to do that. It would be much easier for him to go to one of the firms he knows with the guys he knows, and I and I think that's pretty amazing. And I and I'm very grateful to him for for having included me. It also gave me a front row seat to see up and coming architects throughout Kentucky and watch the talent unfolding and hear what they're, you know, thinking about and being taught about outside of my own firm, so that was an amazing opportunity for me. And that's part of the reason I believe in things like the AIA. You you you get an opportunity to see what's going on in the world. What is what's the best? Who's doing it? What what are people thinking about? What is what is how is the profession involved? And so to not be part of that to me seems like a a real tragedy, to be honest, and so I'm very grateful. And then the flip side of it is I I hear every now and again, you know, and I've heard it at sometimes from inside my own firm and certainly, I've heard it from other places within in our own community.

B You know, the AIA is is not doing it right. It's not good enough, you know, whatever the versions of that. And so my answer to that is, well, then get involved. Change it. Change your profession. Do something about it. Commit to it. Get engaged.

B And so that's that's what I'm that's what I'm doing to to the best of my ability. And so, hopefully, I bring something different. I'm sure I bring something different. I'm not sure whether it's valuable or not. You know, the the others will have to tell you whether that's of any use. But, it's certainly been valuable for me, and and I think I feel like I've been extremely well received. I'm very grateful for the open mindedness of the folks in Kentucky who've kind of embraced me. So that that's been my experience, which I'm I'm delighted about.

A You alluded to this a little bit earlier in our conversation. I don't know if any of our listeners will remember, but architects tend to take on this notion that we are so special, that there isn't anything that we can learn from other industries because what we do is is so unique and particular. And it is true that, you know, every time we create a new product, it's kind of the prototype of that product. But how how much truth is is in that? And and where do you see the biggest opportunity for us to, in fact, lower that wall and and and learn more from from outside industries?

B I think the first thing to me is that if you believe that, then it is a barrier to your ability to find new things and learn new things. So I, I think it is what is it? There is a I think it's Herbert Spencer who said contempt prior to investigation. We talked about contempt prior to investigation. So if you don't look outside of it, you will never know whether that's true or not. There is no question that architects and engineers are unbelievably smart, talented people who who are educated to do incredibly complicated and and difficult things and and have amazing talents. I think I have worked in my career with doctors, lawyers, and architects, and they they share some traits, which is that they they all have what I just described, you know, very smart, very well educated people. I think each of them comes from professions where they are educated to believe that their profession is, you know, very important. I'm gonna understate that a little bit.

B And and so it's easy to get the idea that, you know, that that you are sort of better than, I guess, I'm gonna say that word. And we've all got different skills. We've all learned different things. And my my I would say probably the most important thing to me in my career has been to recognize that. I can't innovate if I'm not willing to look at what somebody in a different profession or with a different background or with different beliefs or a different culture. And so the concept of diversity, you know, we talk about diversity a lot, and and I think a lot of times in all the wrong ways. Celebrating difference and bringing different perspectives from different places to me is perhaps the most valuable thing that we can we can do. And so architecture can't get better if if we keep using the same toolset against the same thing over and over.

B And so, you know, I I think back, and these are business school stories from, you know, probably 30, 40 years ago. I think Southwest Airlines, when they were trying to figure out how to load and empty a plane faster, went to a car racing team to look at how they changed tires so fast. You know, I mean, there are there are all kinds of other people that can teach us how to do things and look at things in a way that we never would. I think some of the most successful designers do an amazing job of bring bringing people into the design process who come from different design disciplines or even nondesigners. You know what I mean? And, design thinking is a process, is is is about making sure that multiple inputs are brought into, including the client's input and the users. And so there's a lots of programming approaches that do that by definition, but we don't do that about our business. So we we you know, I look straight down this sort of tunnel into my business. I'd and and one of the things that the another thing that we did differently at at Luckett and Folly is a small thing.

B You know, like most firms, we have an an accountant. We have a lawyer. We have, people who supply us with technology. We have, you know, I I'm missing probably a range of different vendors. We can treat them as just vendors, or we can look at them and say, how do these people add value to our business? And so we actually, in the last 3 years, I think, have changed every single vendor relationship that we have. And not on purpose. We didn't set out to change them all. What we set out to do was to answer, what do these partners bring to us beyond just providing the service we're asking them for? So for example, in the case of our accountants, how well connected are they to prospective clients? What can they teach us about how to run our business? When they provide an audit to us, do they provide an audit that just tells us, you know, how to do a tactical tactical accounting thing, or do they tell us strategic things that would be valuable to our business? Our IT firm, are we looking for IT firms who are bringing us ideas and interested in showing us how to do things new, or are we just are they waiting for a phone call because we wanna buy a new computer? Like, there's a really big difference in in the kind of relationship.

B Our lawyers, you know, are they again, are they connected to clients? Are they connected to government? Do they have do they provide something beyond, you know, hey. We've got a legal issue, and I need you to fix it. And so I think looking at all ranges of people, so how we run our business, but then also within the practice, where can we bring ideas, like, different so we one of the benefits of hybrid for us is that we're we're recruiting people who are living in communities where different things are happening. So we aren't a Kentucky we're we're headquartered in Kentucky, and we're still small, so we're not like we don't have offices all over the country and stuff like that. But because we're hybrid, we've got folks in Chicago, in Seattle, in Orlando, and and that brings a different perspective to to what we do and to the thought process. And we have people who've come from other firms that have been more successful than us that bring new ideas. So so the openness to me is the crucial thing. And and just to be to recognize you don't know.

B You you you don't have all the answers. You can't have all the answers. So bringing bringing others in has has to be a if I if I sit here and think, I'm gonna figure out how to make it lucky and finally brilliant on my own. I mean, and and 99% of everything I've said in this call is stuff I've either learned from somebody else or shown in another industry, And and, you know, I I don't know how much of it's gonna end up being useful or valuable. We'll we'll find out.

A I've been thinking a lot about mindset and and the self limiting beliefs that we have in architecture that has kind of held us back. And I and I feel like this is just just another another one of those things. So so I appreciate your your perspective and kind of how you framed it. And and I forgot literally about all those case studies about how other people found new ways of doing things by looking at entirely different and, like, unrelated industries. Right? Or even sports stadiums looking to, like, Disney on how to queue lines better. Right? Things like that. I I want to ask you kind of close on a on a broader question. Knowing what you do know of the AEC industry, where where do you think is is the best or the the next or the biggest opportunity that we have in the future for us to make an impact?

B I have some ideas. You know, one one thing that we've explored, it's not something we're doing, and we've had discussions about it. And I think it relates to improving the stature, I guess, of architecture within client organizations. And and what I mean by that is a lot of times, the client the person we talk to every day about a project is not the owner of a business, especially when you have bigger clients. And so you're you're you often are interacting with somebody who is executing with a budget and may not see or may not be as interested in the strategic value of of what what's being done. It not always the case, but it but it may be. And, my my business experience is that getting to CEO board level to have discussions about the importance of design, the value of design, is important if you are going to have be able to have a a good enough discussion about value added, about about a a real design driven process. And so there's and that's hard sometimes for architecture firms to get to that place because because it's not considered at board level in type most companies that it's important to talk to architects unless, you know, you'll have a an an owner or a leader who who intuitively believes in that and they'll drive that.

B And so one of the ways to get there for me is to look at consulting services that are broader and more business related. And so how how do you and so and there are firms who are not architects. So IDEO is a great example where they they take they make design strategic at a corporate level, not just about buildings and facilities, but just the idea of the value and importance of design. So whether it's so to me, there's some blurring at some point between, especially, sustainability and design where there there's an opportunity to start thinking more strategically about the importance of design in in business and in and in lots of processes. You know, my wife, worked for Procter and Gamble in design. They had a design leader in a company that sells, you know, shampoo. But that was a massive change for them to because they had a leader, AG Lafley, who recognized the importance of of design as a as a driver of business, as a driver of value. So those are those are rare.

B And to be able to educate and influence at that level, I think, runs downstream and allows more opportunity, for margin in the design process because it's perceived to be more important. So that's that's one thing. I think that's probably the big thing. I think the other piece is that we have to do a better job of proving the value of design economically. Other industries do a better job of that, I think. Then the last one I'll talk about, because everyone talks about it is AI, but I I kinda wanna flip it on its head. And and so to me, AI will be successful for us if we don't start with AI. AI is the answer, not the question.

B And so to me, we need to start out with our strategies and then how can AI accelerate the things we are trying to do. So in our case, how can it accelerate collaboration? How can it accelerate, efficiency? How can it accelerate design? How can it provide more options? And so it it needs to work for us. And I think so by embracing that instead of being afraid of it, I think that's that's really gonna be crucial that the people jump in and start figuring out how does this and so you can't sometimes you can play, you know, just experiment without knowing where you're going, but my and I've I've been through so many different versions of this where the people who make innovation through new technologies, it's because they know what they were trying to do. They know what their goal was. And so I think for AI, that's that's what's gonna happen for us too is we we have to decide where we want it to help us and then work towards that goal.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.