Architecture, And: Mark Chambers on Designing Systems for Change

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, Disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today I'm joined by two very special guests, Mark Chambers, and an environmental policy leader, architect, and social impact designer who has shaped climate action at every level, from city halls to the White House and practice of architecture's very own cio, Larry Fabroni. Mark and Larry's friendship spans back to their days as classmates at Carnegie Mellon, and that shared history sets the stage for a rich conversation. Together, we explore what it means to reimagine systems, why architects are uniquely positioned as problem solvers beyond buildings, and how optimism and collective action can drive real change.

A This episode isn't about resumes. It's about the insights that emerge when longtime collaborators tackle the big questions of climate community and the future of practice.

B Hello, Disruptors. This is Larry Fabroni. I'm co hosting this week's episode, and I'm here with Mark Chambers. Welcome, Mark.

C Thanks for having me, Larry.

B Yeah. So we wanted to have you on here. You've been on the list for. For a while. A great career thus far, and it's only getting started. You and I, we've known each other for a little over two decades now, I guess.

D So. Did you know Mark before you knew me? How far back does this go?

B Yeah, yeah, yeah. What year would it be, Mark?

C 1996, I guess since the summer of 96. It's a long time ago.

B First day undergrad. We were undergrad together at Carnegie Mellon in the School of Architecture at Carnegie Mellon University here in Pittsburgh, where I'm sitting.

D And you couldn't drag him into AIAs with all your AIAs stuff.

B Mark participated in AIs, but part of how we bonded was Mark. Mark led other student organizations when I was leading AIs, so that was. Yeah, that was part of the bond there. I think there's. There's. There's a deeper connection we found along the way, but. Yeah. So without sort of going through the whole resume of what, what you've done, Mark, why don't you tell us a little bit about.

B About your career path and how do you end up as the sustainability Director of New York City? Right. Working in the working in the Biden White House, all the other interesting things you've done. And I think we're going to dig into a lot of it. But why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got there.

C Yeah, happy to. So, yeah, so many things to unpack here in the type of work that I've done. And one thing is that you'll kind of hear as we talk today, I'm sure, is that the majority of my career has been a lot folk has been focused on climate and how are we kind of working and being climate responsive. How are we working to be able to, as I like to call it, hang out as a species a little bit longer. But my, my work, I guess we start at Carnegie Mellon again. Larry and I did the architecture undergrad together and we also went to grad school together right after that to kind of work on studying like public policy, which I think for me was particularly profound because it opened up a really new and exciting way of practicing and of being able to cultivate environments so that good architecture could take place, good design could take place. I kind of realized early on for myself that it wasn't just about the work you were doing and designing. It was around the context and the people and how are you able to pull those levers to make sure that the design intent, action actually got realized into the work that you were doing.

C I felt like there was so many other pieces at play here that I had no idea about before. So ultimately ended up moving a lot into public policy as I kind of got further outside of undergrad and grad school. So kind of did went that route. Then I started working in a firm in D.C. for a while, Devereaux and Purnell Architects. Marshall Purnell was the head of AIA for a few years as well. And so shout out to Marshall. Great mentor and early introduction to the field to practice and understanding what it take actually put a building together.

C When I think about that time too, I also started to get these inklings of the fact that it's like, you know, you can have so many people working on outcomes for projects, but like how you deliver that project, which is the thing I think I knew in undergrad too, is like the, the presentation of it all matters, like how are you actually selling the work? And so that ended up being something that also kind of drove a lot of my career decisions is the fact that like I was very good at selling the work. Larry can kind of weigh in this. My architecture design game plan was always like decent I felt, like, good about it, but it wasn't like I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna be the one driving, like, the field in the future. I just. I just knew, though, how to sell a project. And that became really clear to me that you could actually connect with people through the work as opposed to just the physicality of it.

B I think we both were people who, if we were gonna be wearing capes in the future, it was not gonna be because of our architecture work.

C Yeah.

B It was going to be because of other reasons and other pursuits. Right. We can talk about wearing capes later in the episode, too.

C I see where. I see where you're going with that as a nice lead in. Yeah. So again, work as architect for five or six years and. And kind of learned the craft, got my license, which I think was also a critical path then, but then really started to bend back towards work into government. Like before, I was sustainability director for New York City. I was the same director for Washington, D.C. local government.

C And so for a couple mayors, even Mayor Bowser, who's still presently mayor, that was a part of, you know, working as an architect, understanding, you know, your clients. One of those clients is the city. You start to build this relationship. And then I ultimately, after a little bit of time consulting, left to join the city to help them green their portfolio of buildings. They. They were built. They were building brand new schools, they were building brand new rec centers and fire stations and office buildings. All of them had to meet the requirements of.

C Then it was the Green building Act of 2006 in Washington, D.C. and so we had to, like, figure out how to do it. And so I came on board to actually start to, like, work with the construction teams, work with the designers, work with the city officials to make sure they were, like, meeting that moment for what they designed. And that kind of started me to really understand that, like, part of my calling had a lot to do with working in public policy, particularly for government, and did. Worked in and worked for D.C. government for several years in several different capacities.

D I have a question, because I talked to a lot of architects who are working in cities, and I feel like, one, how much of what you did as the sustainability manager, director for the city. One, how many architects do you typically find in that position? And then two, did you find yourself, like, carving your own path for that position because of your background?

C Yeah. So every municipality, city government, they'll have, like, you know, a construction arm. You know, they're separated in a few different ways. And in those, you. You might have folks with architectural backgrounds, with construction management backgrounds, project management backgrounds. That wasn't as uncommon. What became more uncommon is I started to assume more responsibilities. I also took on the mantle of being responsible for all the energy procurement for the city.

C And so it was not just greening the buildings, it was managing how we purchased procured energy, how we reduced that energy, also how we did waste management for the city. So I also ran the city and this is the city government. So the six to 800 buildings the city operates versus the residential pickup, but you know, we, we need less trash, more recycling and more composting. So then you start to take that on and then you start to take on, you know, water and all. So all those pieces started to be consolidated underneath. So that then it became unique that I was in that position because a lot of those positions are run by folks that have more energy experience. So that was for me, the learning curve. But once you start to understand how the wheels of governance work, you start to, then you're able to actually recognize that like you're, you know, you're here in service of the population.

C So part of it has a lot to do with understanding what, how you deliver that and represent them in rooms where they don't, they're not there. And that is somewhat universally applicable. And worked on that, of course. And then that led me to do the same thing for New York City, of course, just like a million times larger. D.C. is a population about 700,000 people in New York City has like 8.5 million. And so it was definitely a scale jump. But I came to the city to work for Mayor de Blasio in 2016 and to take on kind of leading the city into a kind of different like echelon of its, of its climate responsiveness.

C It was weird because also in 2016 we also had like a new president. And that was very fascinating to kind of start that work where New York City was like a spear tip of kind of resistance around climate action and defining what it meant to act on climate in a space where you didn't have a federal partner. And so I think we kind of recognize early, and I recognize early that you doing that work also de risks that work for other cities. People look New York City to do this work and then you end up having to take on more so that other people can take on more. So that was like all the kind of the mixed bag of things, more responsibilities, more different sectors related here. But all still for me as an architect being like, I am a three dimensional problem solver I can see all the pieces. I can understand, like, how to pull them apart, put them back together again. And whether it's the policy levers you're pulling, whether it has a lot to do with the technicality of what you're trying to accomplish, all of those things.

C It's like reading a matrix code, and you start to then say, okay, I get it. I can kind of move these different people. I have a larger team. We have more resources. And then you start to kind of put that work into action in a much bigger context.

B So, yeah, I mean, you said, like, New York City's a million times bigger. When you're in the heat of it, how much bigger does it feel? And then how small is the community really that you're dealing with to influence that? Right.

C No, it's a great question. And I think it pops up in different ways. Right. Everything you do has global implications. Right. Because you're not just the largest city in the country, but you're then the example globally in how the US Shows up in other places and how global cities compare. So there's a different echelon there. The other part of it is, like, you still get yelled at in community meetings, right? So it's like, I can.

C No matter what. It's like when all comes said and done, like, people have a very particular relationship with the government, you know, that they serve. And so I've been yelled at in community basements and in, like, nursing home basements in Washington, D.C. and I got yelled at in the unit once. I was there doing a talk related. And there was. I don't know what. I remember what the group was, but someone stood up and decided that they were gonna use that time to complain about the work we were doing around community gardens and in front of their house.

C And I'm like, this is where the UN Man. Like, can we just. Can we just keep it? Like, oh. And no. And so, like, you're. You're. You serve the people. They will yell at you wherever they feel like.

C That's. So that scale is always personal, but then it's. It changes to 51 city council members in. In New York versus like a dozen in D.C. like, those kind of things.

B So then after the city of New York, you. You. You made a pivot right into. Into the private sector, or I guess you f. First, you were in the nonprofit sector, right?

C Not even that. There was. There was one particular jump between them. One more stop. I got a call 2021, where it's still in pandemic, right? Like, I got a call like late one night before inauguration for President Biden and it was basically like, hey, what's up, Mark? We want you to come do a thing. And I'm like, okay, so how does this work? Do I say, do I get to say yes or no? Like, not really. It's kind of this is the thing we want you to do. And I'm like, all right, well, I guess I am here at the service, you know, the pleasure of the President.

C And so I literally like closed my city hall laptop like on a Friday and opened up my White House laptop on a Monday and joined the climate team to serve as the first senior director for Building emissions and community resilience. And with that very long and like can't even fit in like a single line in your email title means is that we were taking a very thoughtful role, a thoughtful stance on how we were going to tackle climate from the Biden White House. And that that was. You were going to have a domestic climate policy team that were going to work hand in hand with the council environmental quality and you were going to have people that were sector specific that were able to like focus in. And I was focused on a built environment because that's my jam. And there were some, there was another folks, one other guy that was focused on transportation, another friend of mine was on industrial emissions. And you have this whole slew of other climate related talent in the team. But we were like really sector specific and kind of drilling in on like my job was like from the built environment with a focus on community resilience.

C How do we reduce emissions as dramatically as possible, as quickly as possible. And that was my kind of job for the first two years of the Biden White House. And so I left in the end of 2022. Then I went to the private sector.

B Yeah, I'm not even going to ask if that job still exists. Maybe there's a larger question of sort of through all that government work, what your perspective is on kind of what's the sustaining possibilities of the work you did? Right. What do you see as kind of things that will outlast kind of any following politics and what are the things that the challenges of that.

C Yeah, I mean, I think again, it's being rewritten every day. Right. I think there's so much work that we put in place that I think we felt was going to be lasting and going to have the ability to really reshape the playing field for how we're able to be like really thoughtful and responding to climate action. And in Support of, like, dramatic, like, increase in job creation and upskilling associated with that. So it was all, like, kind of really well articulated and designed for that. A lot of that has been kind of pulled back for me because I came from the local government, moving into the federal government, which is not always the case with. With folks. I think that I had a really keen perspective on the fact that local government is kind of where the rubber hits the road.

C Like, in federal government, you're really authorizing authority and dollars, right? Local government, you have to figure out how to, like, really get those services and make them. Make them deliverable to folks. And so the things I focused on particularly was around something they called like, building performance standards. So that's my. That is also, like, my love language is building performance standards. It's like, I think those are the most amazing policy kind of tool to be able to really reshape how we design and redesign and retrofit buildings, consistently making them better and better and kind of like, mending as you go. And so I put in place the first building performance standards for large buildings in New York City called Local Law 97. That was my Everest when I was in the city.

C And when I went to the federal government, we wrote the. The federal building performance standards. And in addition to that, we kicked off kind of a push on state government and local cities to be able to enact the same things and be able to. And to be able to kick those off. So there's a handful of cities that since then have also implemented building performance standards. Not as many as I would have liked, but I think that for me, that's more of the legacy move is like, how do you unlock the ability for some of these other local governments that are progressive to be able to make moves?

B All right, so then you made your pivot, right?

C Then I made my pivot. I like to think of it as a control alt delete for those computer fans. I don't even know if that means anything to anyone anymore. But, yeah, no, that was me coming and kind of like, taking a minute to kind of, like, reevaluate and understand. Like, how do you. Again, like, how do you kind of look at the full context? We put so many things in place, so many guardrails, so many kind of access points and ways to do this work. I wanted to see, like, a little bit more about what was happening, how you implement solutions and what does that look like? So, you know, I've spent the last couple of years, like, in, you know, working in a lot of different Ways in philanthropy and in climate tech investing. You know, for the last few months, I've been spending an increasing amount of time consulting with mission driven organizations and like, kind of advising them on, you know, lots of strategic initiatives and like, helping folks, like, navigate this, like, somewhat hostile environment to climate action and the resilience work that a lot of us have dedicated our lives to.

C But even in that mix of like, kind of doing a lot of that work, I'm, I'm trying to stay fixated and stay focused on while all these systems are being torn down, like, thinking about, like, what do we want to build? And that's, that's like, so that's when I wake up in the morning, I'm like, what do we want to build? What's on the other side of this crisis, whatever crisis? Like, what does that future look like? And then, I don't know, like, what does it feel like? Right. Like, what is it? Like, who's, who's centered in that future and like, what's the best that could happen as we, as we envision that? And then that helps me think about, like, what things do I want to work on and what things we need to put in place right now to build a durable public majority, you know, of people that want that future, you know, versus this like, dystopian thing that we're being sold right now. Yeah.

B You're getting to sort of where I wanted to take the whole conversation. Right. We teased this a little bit earlier, but yeah, like, I think from my perspective, you and I really, what, what cemented the friendship we've built over decades now was sort of like this realization of us both being dreamers. Right. I think we're people who try to use the nonsense of the world is fuel for the engines of aspiration and optimism that we, that we try to be right.

C And I agree. I agree.

B So, yeah, what I wanted to sort of spend some time talking about this current world we're in where there's these prevailing forces of chaos and uncertainty and really a kind of embrace of nihilism. How do we stay hopeful and not just keep trying to do better, but serve as the agents of change in the time of uncertainty?

C Yeah. You know, a lot to unpack there. So, like, you know, way to set the bar low for a convo. I'll start with contending that I think the embracing of nihilism is also like, secretly hopeful. Why do I think that? We've had lots of conversations in the past, Larry, about the Walking Dead and about the fact that you know, there's a lot to enjoy about like watching these like apocalyptic like narratives unfold and I've consumed more of them than the average human. So I have watched all the things and I will continue to do so because I thoroughly enjoy it. What I contend though is that people like me that kind of embrace this, this like nihilistic view or are brought closer to the idea of like you need to break everything apart and that like this dystopia coming, it has a lot to do. Less with believing that's inevitable and more with believing like I'll be okay on the other side.

C This is like, it's hopeful because you think you're the one that will survive the bad things. And once the things are flipped upside down, the stuff that's making your life so difficult and challenging right now will be like, like your, your disadvantage will be an advantage. Like your, you know, the skills you have that you can't put to use right now will be like exact you need to survive. And I, so I do think that people are the hope come. It's buried in this idea of like this self value and self worth and wanting to be useful, wanting to be able to contribute. And so I feel like it's more about how do you tap into that as opposed to like just saying that it's like it is just like people think that like it's all going, going downhill. So that's, that's my, that's my contention.

B I like that. I mean, I think my perspective is something's got to change. Right? And so for those of us who are excited about innovation, who are excited about doing something not just new, but better and achieving some future possibility that no one's dreamt of yet. That's an opportunity for us. Right? And yeah, the key is staying, yeah, hopeful in going out every day and trying to do something good in the world.

D So we have a lot of listeners that are coming up in their careers within their profession and I think along with that we have a lot of self doubters too. So Mark, I think they are hearing that you're doing amazing things, but then they also look at your resume of Director of Sustainability for dc, Director of Sustainability for New York, you know, service to the Biden administration, they're like, who am I to Mark? How can I make a difference? How do they maintain a more optimistic view?

C So, fair question. I would say that it is, it just so happens that things have led in to mean in those positions in that way. It is not a quality of like only the people that have had that trajectory are in decision making power. If anything, the decision making and the ability to impact change and new versions, new futures is far more democratized and decentralized now. So I think that the things that took me a career in a lifetime to be able to stack together, the meetings I had to be in, the places I had to like, show up in, the platforms for people, getting some of those experiences and getting that audience are just very different right now. And it has a lot more to do with, like, how do you curate those audiences and how do you curate those spaces that you're natively a part of? To be able to move in some of these, like, pivotal directions versus feeling like this idea that you have to. You have to like, put in your time in what in one way or another, in order to elevate.

D And maybe that's like the architect also in me that's has kind of been like beaten into me, right? Like the gatekeeping, the. I need so many seat hours in this before I can move forward.

B But yeah, and I think having a front row seat to the Mark Chambers show, I would say if you're a younger architect who's trying to figure out, how do I lead authentically? Mark started as an architecture intern in Washington, D.C. and while he was working at an architecture firm, decided, I'm going to live in a neighborhood that needs help, right. That needs people to move into it and to invest in it. And he built a house there. He spent time on a micro scale thinking about what does it mean to be a citizen of a place. And so, Mark, if you want to talk a little more about that. But I think my point is that for those listeners who are out there saying, how do you get to have the type of impact that Mark's able to have in his series of jobs that we're talking about here, my answer for watching it is that you start by looking to have impact in your everyday life, in your community.

C I think that's right. You have to be willing to take certain chances within reason, right? To be able to. To do something that you believe in. Like, we all have these gut instincts about stuff, right? And like, and then, Evelyn, to your point around the. This, like, feeling like you have to do things a certain way, I think that a lot of folks coming up now have been disabused of that notion, right? Like, they've seen it in so many different ways. Yeah, yeah, it's great. And it's fantastic, right? Because it's like, yeah, I think that so many gates were kept and Kept me out of them. That I feel like it's great when folks are able to see their way around corners.

C So this decision to build a house was me kind of taking a chance of myself. And again, within reason, it's like, you do the things you're supposed to do. You work and you kind of save money and you're like, hey, I might be able to do. I might be able to put a down payment on. On a house. And again, this is. This is not now with like, you know, seven and a half percent interest rates for mortgages. So it's like, I get that this is a different time, but I.

C I found a house that had kind of, like, been burnt out and needed. Needed help. And so I was, like, able to get it for, you know, in a place that people did not want to buy it. And I spent, you know, two years, like, I would go to work, I would leave work, I would go to the house, and I would work till like, one in the morning, and then I would, like, be at work first thing in the morning, and then I would be back at the house after work. And that kind of thing is like, it required a lot of sacrifice of my part, but it was like I had an idea that I could do something, and then I leaned in to kind of make it work. And then that gave me the confidence to be in other rooms that I probably would not have had the confidence to be in before. So I do think that what I tell people the time, like, if I'm mentoring or telling people, is that, you know, you need to give people a reason to be your advocate. And so part of that is like, having like, a really clear narrative around, like, who you are.

C And you only do know that by doing so, you got to follow your gut around certain things. You kind of like, you lean into that, and then you take that story about. About yourself, and then you use that to help people invest in you and open additional doors. So I think that because of working and kind of building that house, I was able to have the, you know, I did AIA talks in D.C. on that house that I built. I then kind of like, had the confidence to basically to then go and like, maybe, you know, do like, submit a talk at a conference or things like that. And you start to kind of like, figure out that, like, you can be more than you are presently because you've shown yourself that you're able to follow through on things. I do think having the discipline to be able to lean into some of those gut instincts are particularly important.

C And again, narratives matter. Like, you do something that you believe in and then find people that will listen to you telling that story and then let that inspire you to do additional work and to move to the next level. So that's, I think that's a. A really important kind of career hack to be able to give folks to be able to understand that you're constantly carving out this narrative about yourself, that you're then providing the people to be able to let them believe in you and then open up doors where you can be successful.

D An interesting kind of counter to this that I see a lot of architects do, is that I think you and Larry, from what I know of Larry, too, is like, we've kind of chipped away and carved our path forward for us in a very active way, following our passions. But what I see, and where I see architects get stuck so sometimes is that they see these big systems that need to change in order for them to create change. And I don't know if I'm going to land on a question here, but I think there's always an opportunity to look at what systems locally that you can, can affect, be it even your family, your friends, your community, and then, and then grow your narrative from there rather than being overwhelmed by the big system that you can't really is immovable.

C Yeah, no, I think. I think I'm picking up what you're putting down. And I would say that this idea of finding the audience for the thing that you're doing is relevant. If, if I. So let's say I'm in. I'm like in City hall, and I am. I'm convincing the mayor to do something. I put something in front of whatever the mayor is, that's called like a decision memo.

C And that decision memo would basically be like, here's the thing, I. Here's the thing I'm recommending you do. Here's a little bit of data as to like, why what I'm telling you is true. Here are all the people that are going to be for it. Here are all the people that are going to be against it. And then it's like, I'm also giving you a handful of examples that showcase, like, what it looks like and why it will be in service of the residents of our city. Those examples, we're not making them up. Right.

C And so it's like, which means that every time a policy is enacted, you convince actual decision makers to do something, they have to find relevant, like, actions and places where it has been successful. And so part of, you know, Making sure your work counts for more to more than just like your own personal satisfaction is finding ways for the thing that you're solving, the innovation that you put forward, like putting those into the hands or in front of policymakers of people that work for local government, give them the tools they need to enact the governing policies that might change that environment for the better. And they're always, we're always on the lookout for like a way to kind of like point and be like, hey, they did this in this building, let's go there. Or they did this one thing and this is, this is the example of why this works. And it's actually harder than you would think to find them because a lot of times people don't think that what they've done matters and they don't find ways to elevate it into the hands of their local government.

D For me, this goes back to you at the top of the hour, just kind of talking about how you're a good salesperson. I'm thinking about people that have even pitched the podcast and they're like, me, me, me, me, bring me on your show. It's also just speaking the language and not like even from a non policy place, but speaking the language of the person that you're trying to pitch to.

C Yeah, absolutely. And just like showing up at places where the audience for that work exists. Right. So it's like people are always gathering and they're gathering. And when you're working for local government, you hope to have a filled room, Right? It is very rare. And so like, you know, unless there's something that everyone is like united against, it's usually like slim pickings in terms of people showing up to kind of like talk through things. But that's what I always encourage people to do is to like, there's always city council hearings. There's always stuff that you as a, as a resident can just sign up to go and be a part of.

C And they give you whatever it is, 2 minutes, 2 minutes, 15 seconds, 3 minutes, like whatever it is, and they, and you get to say whatever you think is relevant to that larger effort. And the people that take advantage of that are always the same people. And so I'd highly encourage folks to like, if you, again, if you have an innovation, if you have a project that you think matters and is emblematic of the type of work that needs to be expanded, then you have, you owe it to everyone else in your community to find a way to be able to talk more about that publicly. Council hearings, again, like social Media, of course, all different ways to do that, but, like, you gotta. You gotta give people a chance to appreciate the work you've already done.

B Study how to give a great TED Talk. Right. Mark gave this talk. I don't know if this lives online anywhere now. Mark. But Mark gave this talk about, you know, why he eats the whole apple, which is a number one, like, disgusting habit. But, yeah, I'll give him. I'll give him a break.

B Because it's this brilliant way of talking and engaging people about the larger climate issues that. Yeah. That he cares about.

C I forgot about that. I will look it up and see if I can find it. But it's like, that was particularly talking about waste and how we treat waste. And also I refer to it as free eating the apple. So I like to free eat apples. Don't judge me. We villainize the core at our own peril.

B I've known you long enough to be able to judge you, but I think we're talking about. Evelyn, you're asking these questions sort of about what. What drives us. And for me, I think it's also. Yeah. The teams are so critical. Right. Margaret? I could spend a whole hour talking about the people who we went to school with and what they're doing now because there's so many of them who are out there doing important, you know, amazing work, leading firms, leading policy organizations, doing research, you know, all these.

B All these types of things. Or just being great architects, too. I think we were blessed with some great classmates, but I also think there. There was this team of instructors we came into the fold with at Carnegie Mellon who were sort of out there, and it was. It was the wild west of. I think. Yeah. The issues Mark's kind of looking at now with the climate issues and green building, you know, a lot of them were some of the early leaders in.

B In that movement, and we benefited from it the same. The same way. I think, Evelyn, you and I. Yeah. I think part of what's so strong about you and I's relationship and the groups that. From the AIA and the YF that we. That we're a part of is because of this kind of great team mentality that goes around it. And people who want to be part of something bigger.

B Bigger than themselves. Right. Who recognize that we can't. You can go so much further with, you know, with a bigger group and me being the first person who says, yeah, the easiest way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't do it or it's not possible. Right. Like That's. That's me, but I'd rather do it with a team, so. Yeah, I know.

B Mark, can you talk a little bit about, like, what are the best teams you've been a part of through this journey?

C Gosh. So a. I think you're. I think you're right about the recognition of, like, collectivism and that being something that is particularly powerful. It might be generational, but I do think that there is something very important about, like, how we inspire folks that might not have had some of that same kind of, like, early pushing towards collectivism to still be inspired by it. So I think that. I think that teams matter. I think that being able to contribute and be a part of that and also be, like, you know, I think about, like, the themes that kind of, like, guide me, but, like, service matters to me.

C And being that this is. We're all in, like, Pope conclave watch mode, like, I will. I have no problem blaming, like, the Jesuits that were responsible for my, like, formative education for this. But, like, this idea of being in service of a team is particularly powerful, right? Because you're like, I want to show up for people that I have already agreed to show up for me. And so that. I think that is, like, at this core of, like, community and collectivism that I think is an important thing for us to figure out ways to further, like, sell and further help people pivot towards. And I've been a part of a lot of, like, really interesting, you know, teams were kind of designed particularly to take advantage of people's strengths. I mentioned the team at the climate team, the White House, where it was really very much like, we are going to take the best of the best for these particular, like, skill sets and then bring them all together.

C I've been a part of teams, particularly at local government, where it is just a hodgepodge of folks that happen to be rising at the same time. And then you find out that, like, sometimes the team has, like, you have to be able to understand where your team has, like, gaps, and then what exactly do you really need to do to help fill those gaps and, like, maybe bring in additional people. So I do think that, like, that all those kind of, like, acknowledgments, like, matters of how you kind of view the process. But the one thing I want to get back to, and this is around, like, how do you. How do you sell that, right? Like, how do you get people to believe that collective action matters? Right? A lot of people, as we talked about before, folks that believe that, you know, in Fatalism or people that, like, feel like they're too small to make a difference, like, you still have to sell them on collective action. You know, you feel you still have to make these pivots. And I think that this is why I'm kind of focused a lot on narrative change. I think being able to give people really clear and, like, actionable ways to interpret the world around them and to normalize certain kinds of behavior does help them feel, like, less stuck.

C Right? It helps, it helps everyone feel as though they can be, you know, it's not just like, left up to, like, the experts and activists that have been doing all the heavy lifting. It's like, oh, hey, like, I can be a part of this too, because they've given me an on ramp. And part of that has to do with, like, normalizing the type of behavior, the type of ways in which we need to get people to act. That's in their own best interest, but also, like, serves that teamwork.

B I think, you know, a lot of our listeners are architects, right? Not, hopefully not all, but a lot of them. Yeah, we're. We're really interested in sort of how we disrupt and innovate within and outside of the profession as architects and expand what the role of architects means to people. And you're a great example of that. But yeah, can you talk just a little bit about how you feel like the core skill set sort of translated to some of the things you've done or if it did not. Right.

C Yeah, no, I think. I think it definitely did. So I think I encourage everyone to have a core discipline. And I don't necessarily. I mean, architecture is an amazing one. Other people have other core disciplines, but I think that the notion of just being a jack of all trades, I think is overrated. Having an expertise, having a discipline conveys a certain amount of willingness to seek excellence. And that is incredibly powerful in rooms.

C People that walk into rooms with a core discipline get a certain amount of recognition and are approached with a certain amount of seriousness. Now, here's the catch. If you're an engineer and you're in a room engineers, that doesn't matter as much, right? But if you're an engineer, you're an architect. If you have another discipline and you're in an interdisciplinary space, you're in a space where that is not the norm. It is overvalued. And so this is a tricky part of this. And I realize it might be like encouraging folks in different ways, but I have found that me being an architect in a spaces where there Are not architects has opened incredible amount of doors for me because of that clarity around seriousness that people approach me. Being in that space and being able to recognize and understand how to utilize that as an asset has been really powerful for me because Again, I'm a 3D problem solver.

C I use a lot of references that are architectural and people are like, man, this guy knows what he's talking about. But on top of it, I actually do. But it's like you give them a reason to kind of reinforce their impression. And that happens really often in places where you are somewhat unique. And I've found that to be particularly salsa. So part of it, I guess the lesson here is know your audience, know the room you're in, and recognize when your, your core discipline can be a strategic advantage because it is not the same discipline that everyone in that room has.

B Sure. And so some of that, I think, is just breaking free of the professional services sort of cage. Right. I'm not knocking on professional services, but I'm doing work and, like, thinking about why it's so hard to innovate as, you know, a professional service firm. And part of that is because of what's in the name. Right. You know, you're serving a master. Right.

B Who's, you know, who's your client? And the goal is to kind of keep up with them and keep them happy instead of trying to think about what are the unique ways to utilize the skill set and way of thinking that maybe, maybe we're taught and it all have somewhere. Right?

C Yeah. And that skill set is problem solving. It's like, what better skill set could there be for all the challenges that we're facing out in the world, all the financial challenges, all the climate challenges, all the environmental challenges, like, all of those things need problem solvers. And I think that folks that are used to ruminating on things don't understand the need to translate those into something that, that is tangible, something that works, and something that is beautiful. Right. So I think that we undervalue the architecture, like, skill set at our detriment, because so many other problem solvers kind of utilize brute force and, or just like, effectiveness and don't recognize that, like, part of that beauty in a design, in a solution has a lot to do with being able to meet people where they are and in a way that, like, allows for them to be able to fully engage, appreciate, and take advantage of the solution that you've presented. So I think that you can take that skill set and apply it in a lot of different contexts. Yes.

C When You're. When you are looking at it from a point of view of services, it does become something in which you feel like you're, you know, you're responding to a prompt. But I do think that I would just say that, like, you can do that. You can also be the one kind of like, right, you know, writing the prompts, right, like in whatever AI version of the future we're trying to get to. But, like, but you have to be. I just think that. That take advantage of the fact that, like, you actually are incredibly useful and valuable to the society and population that you're a part of.

D So many people come up to me saying, like, it's. It's an association's job to expand the value, to expand our value, to make sure that we get paid more for our money. And here you are, Mark, saying that if we show up in places where our skill set is a little bit more unique, they see a higher value to us. But then why is it so hard to get paid on the value that we do deliver?

C Like, so this time we're in right now. It is particularly challenging because what's being broken and what's being disrupted are systems, right? Systems that we have relied on, systems that we've been comfortable with, but we also don't often interrogate whether or not those systems were working or whether or not those systems were actually built for us. And you can take us in whatever way you want, but a lot of systems are not actually serving all of the populations equally, right? And so I think that when we start to think about the idea of, like, disrupting systems, all systems are fair game, right? So when you start to think about the fact that, like, you have professional services, you have systems in which, like, these professional organizations are meant to kind of help them secure additional, you know, pieces of the pie and, like, kind of grow in that way. I mean, my thing is, like, I'm questioning the whole piece. I'm questioning the way in which the pie was set up. It's like, I don't want a bigger slice. I want a different pie. And so, like, I'm like, why am I fighting for table scraps and singing for my supper when I have the skill set that is particularly valuable for this present situation? And so I think that it has a lot more to do with, like, when I say, thinking about, like, the way in which we, like, our skill set is valued, it needs to be valued based on what it's capable of delivering, not just what it's being allowed to deliver right now.

C And so I'm more interested in finding those ways and new pies than the current route, which is incremental.

D And I think the important differentiation here is that new pies can still lead to the same outcome like the new pies. The result of a new pie are doing things differently can still relate to you designing a building. I feel like the reticence for moving away from how we've always done things is one, how much control are we giving up to get from A to B and then B because of that? How much of our voice and imprint is left on what's at the end?

C Yeah, I think. I think I get what you're saying. An argument I can make in terms of this, to keep it, like, centralized on the design skill set has a lot more to do with like, okay, I wish that I had spent as much. I wish I had been given as much tutelage around building ownership as I got around building design. Right. So I feel like that would have been incredibly helpful in the beginning for folks to be like, you should be building and owning, building. And then. And you should be using your skill set to enrich the lives of the people living and working in those buildings.

C Like, that's your job. And not just to, like, deliver a piece of this to a certain group of people and then move on to the next thing. Like, it's not about. It's not about you as a designer. It's about you as the caretaker and your vehicle for caretaking is buildings. Like, I would have looked at it differently, right? And then, and then I do think that we would have been in a place where you. Doesn't mean you can't still design the stuff, but it's like you're building the capacity, you're building the capital, and you're building the experience to help the built environment reflect a value structure that honors design and the work that you've learned how to be an expert in. And you're not just being value engineered to the least common denominator.

D Larry and I are up against, like, the. We've always done it this way. This is how the model works. It's interesting, Larry, your definition on professional services. I'd never heard you say those, like, frame it specifically that way. I'm just saying, like, you know, these are, these are the things that we're up against. And I, you know, I'm always pointing to, just because we do it differently doesn't mean that we can't do what we love. I would say that it enables us to actually do more of what we love if you set it up right.

B I mean, I think when, when people are saying this thing to you though, Evelyn, that is, it's your job to kind of convince people of the value of this thing.

D To make sure I get paid more.

B I mean, I think what they're really saying is like, they want you or the association or, you know, whoever they're complaining about, they want the things that they care about to be worth more and they want someone else to do that work as opposed to saying, what do people actually value? And yeah, there certainly is a, there's certainly a world. I think Mark is like leading in this world of how do we work towards a place where things people may not value the way they should because of short and long term kind of perspective. Yeah. How do we get them to care more about some of those longer term things that are, that have imminent repercussions to us? But I think there's also a place where there's just people are convinced of the thing that they want to do and they want to get paid more for it. And I'm not convinced that that's a.

D Meaningful way to build a business.

B Well, I'm absolutely convinced that's not a meaningful way to build a business. But I'm also not convinced it's a meaningful place for any of us to spend our time. Right, right.

D And that was actually recent realization that I came to when people, when I'm in all these forums and they're like, oh, I'm thinking about starting a practice. They're just like, you know, what do I need to hang out my shingle? And I was like, you know, in business school you're taught to build a business case to see if there's an audience there. We don't even do any of that in architecture. We just think that because of what we do and how we do it, we should be paid at a certain.

C Level to do it Again, I think it's a losing proposition to not interrogate the system. And the starting point for that. I say this to everyone all the time. Part of the prompt for why buildings represent such a large portion of global greenhouse gas emissions is that we spend all our diamond buildings. Right. Buildings are where we go to sleep, where we grab coffee, and where we like, go to like school. And like people go to church, people go to like work. Like that's all happening in buildings.

C 90% of the time you're in buildings. And the people that know how to put buildings together don't own those buildings. And so I, and I'm like, we, we're, we keep trying to, like, figure out how best to like, shoehorn the things that we are particularly skilled at understanding how to design, how to, how to affect, how to make comfort and indoor environment a priority while simultaneously reducing the kind of impact of that building on communities and cities and like, and global emissions. You can't do that if you don't necessarily have an ownership stake in that. So I'm just, I'm kind of saying that, like, that's my like, push or nudge is that we should be kind of helping folks like you guys are focused on, like, what's the business case for that, but not necessarily in terms of, as a professional practice, like, what's the business case for architects being owners? And then. And that is a way in which you can be a little bit more impactful in the environments which you are serving.

B Mark, I love this conversation, and you and I have talked about this here. What you're talking about is essentially, architects need to be some version of an impact investor who can treat the, like, the bottom line and the returns from an investment, who can look at it in a different way than what the current system and frameworks allow for. Because, yeah, we can talk about as much as we want about the people who own the buildings. The people who finance the buildings make even more decisions about this than the people who own the buildings. But that can be a whole nother podcast, right?

C It should be. Yeah. I think. But I think for me that the one takeaway on this that I, again, I agree that this is a worthwhile kind of pursuit. I think the takeaway, though, is that there when you. And this is. I'm thinking about this because Evelyn mentioned the five years. It's like the.

C And then again time after that, there is a contract, a like, social contract that's made with people pursuing this profession. And I think that that contract needs to be renegotiated. And I think that it's something in which we have to be able to sell a better optionality of. Of what this, the skill set can do out in the world. Because there is a need. And the. And right now I think there, like, there has been part of. One of the reasons why a lot of folks like myself have not stayed fully in the design profession is because I did not feel like it was able to fully, like, encapsulate like, the impact and imprint I wanted to have in the world.

C Even though there was high, it was a high billing early that this is what you're going to be able to do. And so I do think that there needs to be a little bit of a reconciliation there around how we're selling an actual version of practice and of the impact on society that is worthy of the time you're putting in there. And I don't think it's far off. I think it's. It just needs to be clarified.

D Yeah. But back to the disrupting the systems. The biggest complaint from the practitioners is that the people coming out of schools aren't technical enough. So wrong value proposition still wrong value proposition.

B Well, yeah, I think that's what you say is going to resonate with most listeners of this podcast, for sure. I mean, I think that's, That's a, That's a big reason why people listen to all the, all the great guests who come on here is because of this kind of hunger for more. Right. And to be able to do more and impact more beyond what a traditional practice looks like. You're talking. You want a whole. A whole different pie. So, yeah, I just, I just added my first, first question to the questions I'm going to run through with you.

B And what's your favorite pie?

C Oh, that's a great. That's a great question. So if I have to, if, like, I have to have to make a decision. Right. Then I'm going peacock, hands down. Right.

D Is savory pies included in that list?

C I say no. It's like, it's, it's. It's like, are we gonna. Are we gonna add quiche in there, too? Evelyn, Is it just pie shaped like what. Like, I feel like.

D I mean, sky is the limit on, on pies, which is like another conversation.

B Pizza pies. Where. Where does it end? Is the question. Okay, what's.

C What's something?

B Yeah, I, I feel like, yeah, you get a great guest on a podcast. Like, we should just kind of. Yeah. Share a few other things.

C Like.

B Yeah, what's. What's something people should be reading? It could be a book or a blog or what.

C What.

B Whatever.

C Yeah. So something you should be reading. And again, this is like, in the, the most recent book that I read that I really, really enjoyed. But there's this book called Sky Full of Elephants, and it's. The author is CBO Campbell, and it's just like, again, flipping narratives on. On its head. But it's also has a lot to do with, like, it still does kind of touch in, like, the apocalypse kind of thing. So, like, I recommend it.

C Fascinating read. That's. That's my recommendation.

B Okay. You're in New York, so if we have listeners who are visiting or. Or live there. What's. What's your favorite place to go? Grab a cup of coffee or a cocktail?

C Good questions. Also, I would say that there is a place that I've been going to lately that is called Dear Mama. It's in kind of West Harlem, like, near Columbia University, kind of like near the river. And it's just. You can have both coffee and cocktails there. But I love it because it's, like, great people watching. It's just, like, a mix of folks as well as college students, and there's just, like, hijinks ensue. It's good.

C It's good to watch, like, people living their lives.

B That's. Yeah, that's what we like, hijinks. All right, I got a couple more for you. You mentioned Marshall earlier, but I was just curious that. Yeah. Any professors, mentors you want to spotlight? Who inspired you on your path? Shout out.

C Barbara Lori was like, a incredible mentor to me. She passed away several years ago, but she and she, NY and Marshall all work together. But she was, like, very active in AIA, particularly in D.C. aIA and NOMA, but was just like, if you want a mentor and you want someone to teach you about the practice of architecture in a very, like, human and thoughtful and intentional way. Barbara Laurie was it. She used to always, no matter what we were doing, she would draw little, like, sketches on the upper corners of her paper. Not, like, when I say sketches, it's like doodles almost. And I still do that to this day because I think about her constantly having a mind that was, like, problem solving.

C And it's almost like even in the meeting, I need to problem solve how this doodle manifests itself in the corner around the staple, because her mind is always turning. And so I always think about that as just a reminder. Reminder to me of, like, to stay active and to stay, like, engaged, because that's what she taught me. And she was, like, particularly impactful for a lot of the ways in which I approach the integration of design into whatever it is that I'm trying to work on.

B All right, last. Last question, and I'm going to try to tee you up for something here, but we'll. We'll see if you take the bait. Because I talked about us, you know, wearing capes earlier. For anyone who made it to the end of this, maybe. Maybe they get a little payoff. What's a conference that someone shouldn't miss? And if it happened to be someplace you wouldn't be out of place wearing a cape? That might be interesting for people.

C Yeah. So what Larry's referring to is that I'm a big fan and attendee of Comic Con here in New York. Since I've been in New York, I've been going to Comic Con. I think it's important for people to, like, be able to find your. Find your people, find your club, find the places where the thing that. About. That you like about yourself, that you don't necessarily always get to indulge or lean into. There are people doing that, and it's okay, and so be in that space.

C And I would say that when you do that, when you lean into the parts of your personality that are uniquely you, other things start to emerge. For example, I didn't know that in 2025 I would be learning how to sew, which is a thing that I'm doing right now. I have a machine. I know about, like, bobbins and, like, different thread types, and because, like, it is something that will help me in that pursuit. And I'm, like, growing as a person and as someone who believes in how we mend things, like, impacts, like, how we think about, like, longevity and, like, life of, like, items and things. So there's a. There is inspiration all around you, but you have to, like, think about ways to show up in spaces with other people or you're gonna forget that, like, we're part of a community and we're part of places that are occupied by other humans. So go be out amongst the humans and then learn things and let those things impact how you live your life and how you, like, explore different parts of your personality, because we need that version of you out here in the world.

C Foreign.

A Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practice of Arch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.