Architecture, And: Affordable Housing and Community Development

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're excited to have Wayne Mortensen join us, a leader whose career bridges architecture, urban design, and social work. Wayne is the vice president of Excel Development Group and the founder of Public Square Development Services, a nonprofit consultancy focused on affordable housing solutions. After starting his academic journey in architecture at the University of Nebraska, Wayne's past shifted towards public interest design, leading him to DC, St.

A Louis, Cleveland, and ultimately back to his home state. During his time in Cleveland, Wayne worked as an enterprise rose architectural fellow, helping shape citywide planning and redevelopment strategies. Now back in Nebraska, Wayne is dedicated to solving housing challenges across urban and rural communities through his work at Public Square and Excel Development Group, where he's helped develop over 25 100 housing units across multiple states. In this episode, we'll explore Wayne's interdisciplinary approach to community development, his passion for affordable housing, and his advice for young architects who want to make a lasting social impact. Hi, Wayne. Welcome to the show. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to join us today.

B I'm so happy to be involved. Long time listener, first time interviewee.

A Well, we'll see where this goes. We might need to pick up another episode with you, later on. I know you have a lot to say about a lot of different things. But, for this one in particular, I thought we would focus on on your career path. Is there anything that, just to kick things off, that is not in your formal bio that may gave us more insight to who you are? Anything you're looking forward to in the near future?

B Sure. Well, I mean, I think it might be helpful for everybody to know that I was the 1st masochist at Washington University in Saint Louis to to pursue degrees in architecture, urban design, and social work. Right? Like, I was, you know, with my registrar just, like, putting a worksheet together about how this would be pulled off. And I I am happy to report that I think there's been at least 2 students, maybe 3, that have done the same since I left. And they're all using my worksheet without royalties. So, you know, pay it forward, I guess.

A Do they literally have they hunted you down and said, like, there's this person that's done this before, I wanna do it? Or how have they come to the idea of wanting to take the same path?

B Oh, sure. Well, I think it's I think it's like anything. It's like an oral history where somebody is connected to somebody, connected to somebody. Because the 1st student to do it, like, was one of my students when I taught there for a little while. And so there was, like, that, connection, that that sinew of academic connection. But then, you know, someone knew that person and someone who so, like, you know, in any cohort, there's maybe 1 or 2 connections that that kind of open up the possibility of of what's possible there.

A I can honestly see how that happens. The other interesting thing as I was prepping for this podcast is looking at the history of AIAS presidents that we've had on over time. And the irony of or it's not actually not so ironic in my mind anymore how few AIAS presidents go into traditional practice after their term.

B Yeah. Uh-huh.

A I'm talking about Janine, you know, my past cohost, obviously, and we've had Trinity and Jake on as well, and Larry. So it's it's just been interesting to see how that time hasn't shaped the choices that you've made following that. So there's a lot of interesting things that I think we can talk about about your career path. I do wanna little go a little bit deeper into the 3 masters that you wanna explore. But let's kick it all the way back to AIAS days. Where did you get your love of architecture to wanna become an architect or pursue architecture as a degree in in the first place, and and why AIS National President?

B Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think my story was any different than anybody else's. Like, I had these delusions of grandeur about, you know, being an ivory tower architect, designing skyscrapers and major city centers. And, like, that that seemed really cool at the time. But I think, it ultimately goes all the way back to, Tom Selleck. Tom Selleck was, you know, the heartthrob of my early youth, and all of my aunts were super into Tom Selleck. And in 3 men and a baby, he was an architect.

B And, like, there's this there's this great scene of him in a hard hat unrolling drawings, the top of a skyscraper, and pointing to things. Like, well, I can point to things, and I can unroll drawings. Like, that that seems like something I should be doing, like, if if this really cool guy is doing that. And and, you know, and then I got to know that my one of my great uncles was an architect, and I shadowed him. And and I started to see, like, how the the things kinda came together. And so I would say, you know, very traditional except, I don't know, maybe if, 3 men and a baby is a universally held experience. But I I think it was all about, like, designing great facilities and coming into grad school with that with that impression. And in part, it was grad school, and in part is me just growing up and and realizing what my values were to figure out that architecture alone and ivory towers alone was not gonna cut it in order to spend an entire life on.

B So that's kind of the evolution. Towards the end of undergrad, I I became increasingly disenfranchised with architecture. And I think, that's a common experience, especially anybody that didn't sleep through their history class and see, like, the failed social legacy of architects in the United States, the the, you know, the at the time, I was in Saint Louis and so or at the in at Lincoln, University of Nebraska Lincoln. I was about to go to St. Louis, but I didn't know it at the time. But I was looking at these stories about, Pruitt Igoe being this wonderfully progressive and award winning project and, you know, literally Pruitt being the section for the whites and Igoe being the section for the blacks and Division Street running down the middle of it. And and none of us could have foreseen this being, like, just the disaster that it ended up being, these skip stop elevators that we're supposed to socialize and engage people, but, you know, ultimately, just ended up being this terrible invention for the elderly and the differently abled. So so I just I I I didn't know what to do at the end of undergrad, but I did know that there was this incredible organization, AIS, that was responsible for a lot of the best parts of my undergraduate education at the University of Nebraska and all of the great people that I was meeting around the country.

B And so that seemed like if that was a possibility, that would seem like absolutely something I wanted to pursue. And I still remember giving my speech at the Sheridan Chicago Downtown Waterfront Hotel. And the first line of my speech, I will not belabor this, but the first line of my speech was, I'm going to be an architect. And that brought the house down. Everybody, like, all of a sudden was like, okay, that there's something about that. Something about the connection and the decision that we all make at some point to be an architect that resonates with us and never quite leaves us. And so that's, I think, a fitting kind of metaphor for for kind of how I started and and kind of the thing that started me to kind of almost kind of leave the profession, but I'll I'll maybe talk later about how I I hate the the phrase of leaving the profession.

A Okay. I'm I'm writing I'm jotting down notes to make sure that we circle around back to leaving, as someone who used to talk about leaving and really talking now about redefining what the role of the architect is Absolutely.

B Yeah. More

A broadly. So you ran for AIA as national president. You got it. Did that year as president shape your next steps in your career at all?

B Yeah. It ring that in some of the original passions about architecture and about this thing that we all share. I was able to visit 40 different programs that year and kind of, you know, in the spirit of the AIS, like, in an attempt to save money, like, in this kind of, I think, woeful and inadequate way, we, you know, crash at people's houses. We rent cars. We don't necessarily jump in a private jet and and stay at the intercontinental. So the idea, I think, from from that was just really reconnecting with a bunch of undergrads at the time, mostly undergrads and some grad students that are really super, passionate and excited about architecture. And and I think that helped me. Instead of just leave the professional altogether, I started to figure out, like, well, what could I augment architecture with, in order to, make it a, you know, a relevant pursuit worth spending a life on? Because that's all we're doing at the end of the day is, like, you know, we're picking out something to spend most of our lives on.

B And is there anything more valuable than, you know, trying to create a world that's better for other people? To paraphrase, George Eliot and the, female pseudonym behind George. So

A So after having that experience, that's when you went back to Saint Louis. Correct?

B Yeah. So, yeah, I think we did some really important things. At AAS, we we launched Freedom by Design, which was, you know, the National Service Initiative. Just the idea that, architects, even, like, very early in their exploration, earlier in their learning can make an impact. And so, like, Freedom by Design is all about, like, teaching architecture students how to intervene in in the lives of recently disabled and low income people to dramatically improve their quality of life. Not my brainchild. They stole it from Brad Buchanan, who was an architect developer in Denver. Just an incredible person.

B But the idea of Freedom by Design becoming the National Service Initiative was was then hatched later by other guests of your program, that followed me, Trinity and Jake, and, you know, advised by Larry, who was my predecessor, who you just had on a couple weeks ago. So, you know, I feel like in some ways, the podcast is a bit of a reunion for me and kind of a lineage here. So I I I appreciate becoming officially part of it. Back to your question, the idea of of, you know, how could we just lean in to architecture in a in a more meaningful way and not just presume that we know, the full extents of what practice is capable of. And so I went back to grad school this time with a little bit more passion about architecture and its role within the broader context of society. And so then that's when I added these other 2 degrees and began to be the the pain in the ass for the the registrar and the department heads. But but what an incredible experience to challenge my social work professors about architectural issues, my architectural professors about urban design issues, and my urban design professors about social policy. I it was just really nice way to go through grad school and a really what really cool way to to explore alternative career.

A And I think and a and a uniquely ambitious way to go. I mean, I thought I was ambitious doing my MBA and my m you know, picking up my MPA. Obviously, I think there's we have really smart listeners, and they're drawing lines between the 3. But what was uniquely different about each of the 3 that you believed you need to pursue the 3 together?

B Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think what I was starting to deduce in undergrad through all these failed experiments in social housing and and planning. Right? It wasn't just housing. It was, like, urban renewal, and it was it was all of these really destructive city growth and, future city concepts. What I was trying to do was that architects just just were really kind of megalomaniacs in some ways, and that we we understood ourselves as having all of the knowledge necessary to effectuate change in the built environment, but without the attending, understanding of what the catalytic or destabilizing, effects, impacts would be of those decisions. And so I think it's really valuable to think of architecture in an urban framework to feel like a building is a piece of a larger composition. So that's where urban design came in about.

B How do you contextualize and nest that commission within its urban context in a way that contributes as much to the community as it does to the owner, and occupants of that building? And then, you know, through urban design, like, how do we create these humane environments for people, to commute and play and work within and through? And so just the importance of not just planning, but the 3rd dimension of design and how people experience place. And can you improve their day or in some way make their life simpler or more enjoyable just through the basic act of of, you know, creating a better environment for them to to inhabit and commute through. And then social work, I think that was that was the big part. That was the biggest, leap because it was a course of study that I didn't have any experience in. But it was incredibly welcoming, incredibly inclusive as opposed to a gatekeeping, kind of ethos, that I felt like a lot of architecture schools had. It was all about inclusion and empowerment, wanting as many social workers to come through their door and into the profession and get them launched in a way that could be impactful and meaningful and to make them the best practitioners they could be before they left. And so that was, I think, the economics class coursework that was associated with that, the policy and program evaluation that was associated with that, and then finally, just the the attending impacts of the governmental and planning decisions we've made for, you know, something like 8 to 9 decades at that time. You know, I was talking to my professors in social work about the impacts of sprawl and increasingly isolating built environments and how planning decisions are affecting our social networks and our bridging and bonding social capital.

B And how do we create places that, can obviously protect and honor privacy and semi privacy? But, how can we be in community with each other in a more meaningful way? So I think that's how those 3 kinda come together. The intersection of which I call, at my most pretentious, arc of social urbanism. But, you know, I think Sharon Matthews, who was the executive director of NAB at the time and just a dear friend, said, you have got to be the only Edith I know that got master's degrees that lowered their earnings potential. So the intersection of those 3, like, I think completely limits what I can be happy doing. But at the same time, like, when I find a good role, like, it's very meaningful to me, physically, professionally, and spiritually. So

A It's interesting for you to kind of end because I often talk about how through my course of undergrad in architecture and even when I pursued my m arc, at some degrees, I had these really optimistic professors, right, that tell us you can do anything with a degree in architecture. And then for you to kind of flip it and say, like and then you've went and pursued more more degrees, and now and now you can do a need. And now you're you've narrowed your scope. But I I really think that that has to do, honestly, with where your your value as you stated at the top. Right? Where your value system lies and jobs that help you pursue that that passion through this lens and through this perspective that you've developed over time.

B Yeah. No. And I've I've I've admired you over the years and being so, effusive and candid, about your various struggles with the relevance of our work. And I really enjoyed our conversations about, like, how do you, leverage and exploit, the best parts and, bring those into other parallel fields of inquiry. Right? And so, like, it it was it was you know, all this is is none of it is is my own. It's all in collaboration with at the time, it was, you know, it was the John Kerry and and, Cassius Peeler that were disrupting architectural licensure at the time through ArchVoices. It was it was, you and Larry and, our friends at at AIS Leadership, and and I think later it was Eric Kessel and all our friends at, at Architecture For Humanity and and how that's all evolved and changed over time to kind of render, I think, a profession that is that is way more responsive to the needs of of people. You know, Brian Bell's famous 98 Percent line about 98% of people will never work with an architect in their life, and and how can we serve the other 98%, which, you know, launched Association For Community Design and and, the Design Core.

B And so, like, I just feel like I was very lucky to be in AIS leadership at a time when all of these things were percolating and kind of being launched like an ember that had fallen into a box of fireworks. Right? Like, and I just kind of grabbed one of those, fireworks and kind of I'm trying to ride it as long as I can in this strange kind of combination of of disciplines.

A I believe that that emperor is is worth writing. And I would like to think that, you know, we've been talking about this for so long now, but that generation z is really kind of spearheading what this could potentially be. But I don't wanna get necessarily on a tangent there, and there's only so much I know about generations. I feel like I need to bring somebody from that generation on just so I can be using, like, the proper language to communicate with that generation.

B Right.

A But back to you. So you have these degrees. So what was the next step for you logically? Did you even consider looking at architecture firms at that time?

B I did. Yeah. And there were a couple, especially in Saint Louis. You know, they say, get your undergraduate degree where you can afford it and then get your graduate degree where you wanna work. And so St. Louis was this interesting laboratory. You know, DC was this great environment where you could study, like, the raw power of an economy that, is recession proof and, like, what planners can do when recession and weak market never enter the equation. But at the same time, like, this incredible divide between the have and have nots.

B When I was in say when I was in, DC, you know, southeast was not a place that was seeing $1,000,000,000 investments. Right? It was a place where all of the permanent residents of of DC that didn't have economic options would would, camp out. So that's I I think for me, it was a good lesson between power and purpose. And then, Saint Louis, was this really interesting place that had a ton of subtle and structural problems, but kind of similar to DC, had this kind of chamber of commerce kind of, ethos to dealing with them. You know, like sweeping them under the rug and and doing beautification projects and streetscapes instead of systems change and structural, work with the affected populations. And, you know, only later did that manifest itself in Ferguson and the eventual race riots that happened there, that were so fundamental to exposing all of what ailed that metropolitan area and still, in many ways, does. And so, you know, I was really interested in sticking around, the director of my urban design program, doctor John Hall, also ran a studio called h three studio. And so that seemed like a really natural connection.

B Somebody that understood kind of my brain and and and vice versa. And so we we teamed up. I was a project manager and outreach specialist, engagement specialist. There's that social work degree coming in with of that planning firm. And so with h three, I was able to work in post Katrina New Orleans with Central City and English Turn and the downtown development district on some really important considerations for brick full recovery and, empowerment there of really important neighborhoods. Worked in rural Illinois and kind of marginalized communities across East Saint Louis and up into North Omaha. I was able to pursue and get a couple projects in my, basically my hometown where I grew up, and, that was exciting and empowering at the same time. But so that was the that was the first and most obvious step was to go into planning consultation and leverage these 3 degrees in a more magnificent way in terms of trying to shape the the urban environment.

A But, obviously, your career has evolved and and you're no longer there. So talk to us about the the next steps and then kind of how you've ended up where you are

B now. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, I think what I started to realize in Saint Louis, and this, you know, this might be hard for some of your listeners to hear. And so this is true in my case, maybe not all cases. But I started to realize the limitations of consulting, the economies around structuring partnerships, tied to a contract. Right? Like, the importance of urban design and community development is in kind of parlaying partnerships into progress and building trust and building the attending rapport with people, especially me as a big white guy from Nebraska going into communities in New Orleans and saying, hey, I'm from Nebraska and I'm here to help. Like, get the f out of here.

B Like, what are what are you guys talking about? And so it takes a little bit for me, and I have to kind of wear my values on my sleeve. Some people call that virtue signaling. I call that just trying to build rapport with communities that I care a lot about. So, like, how do you build trust and structure the partnership in a way that you guys can work together in a in a place of mutual trust and respect, to advance this place that they love and that they care about. And and usually, the purchasing only only gets you too far. What happened at the other end of that is that you're actually taking their ideas and putting them into a form that can be realized. And that's where the trust comes from. That's where the excitement happens.

B And I just got really tired as a consultant in in hitting reset on those relationships at the end of every contract and, saying, you know, let us know if we can come back and help you guys implement these. We'll help you kind of apply for a grant. Right? Like like, just being too much of a commodity, was just really frustrating. And so the Rose Fellowship, which I learned about through just Zimbabwe, at the time just went over, but now it's Zimbabwe. I just really was excited to see, like, what what that could mean for a planning consultant with an architecture background, like, nested in a place for 3 years. I think that was the commitment. 3 years in Cleveland, and I could do that. Like, you know, Nebraska, Saint Louis, Cleveland couldn't be that big of a jump in terms of, you know, social and cultural learning curve.

B But, you know, the chance to experiment with this longer form version of consulting work as a resource for this community for 3 years. And that was that was where I learned a lot about other people's ideas and the limitations of my own creativity and knowledge, and that it wasn't architects that were gonna save the world. Architects could facilitate the solution, but it had to be other people's ideas that were driving the bus.

A It's interesting because you and I talked a little bit at the top of the hour before we hit record about consultancy, and I don't want to necessarily, I do and I don't, I'm going to want to necessarily draw connections between, I think, you know, your very values based move into a community to create, to actually kind of live within it and take what would otherwise potentially be shelved after a whole bunch of work and actually look toward it, like creating movement and actual implementation and change. And for me, similarly in my own career path, which is very different than yours in in some ways, you know, now that I'm beginning to draw similarities, is I, you know, I did workplace consulting. You know, the consultants wanna say, oh, it's it's so different, every organization you go into, and yet you go into these you try to build coalitions internally in workplaces, and then you leave it. You say, like, let me know if I can help you implement. Right? And then you go over and you start all over again. And it's really the same thing all over and over again. The player's name has changed, but, one, it got monotonous for me and tiresome. But, 2, I was, like, I'm not really unless they're paying for implementation and unless our relationship with them extends beyond the initial consulting agreement, I'm not really creating any meaningful change in these organizations, which is ultimately why I went in house.

A I was excited to go in house to Slack.

B I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. I think I think just like planning in urban design, there's a long there's a long lead time, and the payoff is is several years down the road. I think you're being a little too modest about the contributions you likely made with those clients. And I know that because I've spoken to some of them, and they just remain in awe of your your, perspective and expertise. But I would say you're exactly right in that you you first enter this group, and it's just like another social structure. Right? And you figure out who your helpers are gonna be. You figure out who your detractors are gonna be and who you have to win over. And so that's I think that's consulting.

B Like, the the the distillation of consulting is like, how do you try to get everybody on the same page with a better standard of living or development process or in your case, like business practice. And I love that. I love that parallel. But I just want I didn't want you to be too humble because I think you did some pretty important work for a while there.

A Oh, well, thank you. And I appreciate that. But, you know, it has me asking a lot of questions about my own business model and how I want to engage going going forward. Because I think in the end, all of us inherently as people, we want to create change in the most positive way possible. You, I think, within communities, me within the profession as an industry overall. And, you know, what is what is the best way that we can do about go about doing that in a way that fulfills our own passion too and where we can see progress?

B Yeah. Yeah. And, like, what what do we offer the world? You know, I think I'm a really good facilitator in Dot Connector and can can take someone's idea and put a road map together. I can assemble a road map that gets them from where they're at to where they wanna be. Like, that's I think that's my biggest talent and biggest strength. And so how do we how do we leverage the strengths that we have for the betterment of those that we're engaged with in a meaningful and authentic way. Right? Like and I know several friends that I, went to undergrad and grad school with. Like, they're incredibly talented about putting a striking building together and resolving a program in 3 dimensions and and creating spaces for living.

B And so that's their gift. But but I don't think we necessarily all have that gift. The architecture student architecture school kind of makes us feel like that's our only venue of contribution. You know, by the by the end of our 4 years of undergrad or 5 year b arc or 6, 7, 8 year m arc, whatever the course is, like, like, hopefully, at at some point, you understand that it's not just designers that make this world go round, but it's also the spec writers and the drafts people and the firm administrator and the project development people. And so there's, you know, in many ways, there's all sorts of places to plug in with the skills that you have to to get the to get the machine humming.

A Yes. I I am the first to raise my hand and say there are people that can absolutely design things better than I can. And I already have my friends know because they're my good friends, but I already have an architect in mind when it comes to even redesigning my home. It's not something that I'm I'm gonna wanna deal with.

B Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like, I have to I have to live somewhere for 3 years before I figure out what I really wanna do. I can't imagine, like, being a a custom residential architect that has to deduce what the best, approach is in, like, an hour.

A Yeah. Absolutely. So you talked about the next path to the Rose Fellow. And from there, honestly, I think you've kind of created a career that best suits kind of what you're you're most passionate about. But talk about what you are doing now in in various different roles. I feel like individuals like yourself and I, we end up wearing multiple hats, mostly because it's hard to, like, put us in a a single box, but because because there are different things that we wanna pursue that we don't necessarily find within one job title either.

B Yeah. And so, you know, the Rose Fellowship was 3 years. I stayed on in Cleveland for another 7 as the director of design and development for this intermediary called Cleveland Neighborhood Progress. It wasn't until I got a call from an old architecture professor of mine that said this job in Lincoln had come open, Lincoln, Nebraska, where I'm at now, at NeighborWorks. NeighborWorks is a local developer and community service organization, that's almost exclusively committed to, creating homeownership opportunities for first time homebuyers, which, you know, lovely. What a wonderful way to spend some time. Right? And it was, and it is. But it was the combination of being able to come home, being able to, help modernize and and scale that organization.

B And, you know, having my 2 year old, 3 year old at the time being closer to grandma and grandpa and the cousins. So it was it was a good it was a good next step. Although we'd never thought we'd leave Cleveland, we were very happy there. We still are madly in love with that place and the people of Cleveland. We even named our dog Lincoln out of the place where, Jill and I met because we'd never gonna go we're never gonna go back home. But, you know, life you make plans and and god laughs, as they say. So so, you know, back to Lincoln, ran NeighborWorks for 4 years, as the CEO there, and started to realize, I think, over those 4 years that I I just needed some more scale. Like, you know, I am a fairly, modest guy about my abilities and about my role, what my role should be.

B But what I'm not modest about is, like, my my need to be able to effectuate impact. And so in Lincoln, we have this 17,000 housing unit shortage. It's, you know, a microcosm of everywhere. I don't think we're unique in any way. And I just needed to be able to feel like I was making a bigger dent in that shortage. And so we did some really great stuff. We, launched a community land trust at NeighborWorks. We started building some more urban typology homes and some really cool projects that started there.

B But, you know, when the opportunity to kinda take some time away to figure out what that meant presented itself. And it's like, okay, let's figure out, like, what's really gonna engage both sides of my brain. And the left side of my brain needs to do scale, needs to be, you know, building dozens, if not hundreds of units, almost always to try to feel like we're responding to this generational challenge of an acute housing shortage. And the right side of my brain needed to be involved in these policy discussions and in this planning work that I previously had loved so much. And so so I I joined Excel Development Group, which is a 35 year old, tax credit developer, at the very least to figure out, you know, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the 9 4% tax credit projects approaches And, you know, to build you know, since I've been here in 6 weeks, we've cut 3 ribbons on projects. And so it's really exciting the amount of work that's happening. And so that's exciting, constantly. And the number of people that are able to rent the nicest home they've seen.

B Right? So that's it's a really cool thing, to be a part of. On the flip side, you know, it's not as altruistic. We don't get to completely reconsider the design of the duplex or the multifamily building every time we start a project. So I still needed that. And so I while I was on sabbatical, I, incorporated a, not for profit development services consultancy called Public Square, which was an homage to Cleveland and the heart of Cleveland is their public square. And, but also for me, a I think a hallmark of of what I enjoy most is bringing people together to to solve problems. And where else is better to do that than in the public square? So, that's what Public Square is all about, the namesake. And and it's designed to, again, parlay partnerships into progress.

B And so working with not for profits and municipal partners of any scale or capacity to help them at whatever stage they're in move their affordable housing agenda forward. So whether it's putting a partnership perspectives together for a community foundation or working with Sarpey County here in Nebraska to help them figure out how to do affordable housing responsibly in 500 year floodplans. Like, how do we how do we wrestle with those kind of existential issues of of nature and and economy in a way that will create communities that are resilient and able to help people thrive, in place. So so that's kind of where Public Square is headed. And so combined those two things, and I'm teaching at, Nebraska because I'm just a masochist again. So there's the rule of threes, developer, teacher, consultant again. But, you know, I think, all those things combined will will lead to a lot of, at the very least, a lot of learning and a lot of exciting moments and opportunities. And and we'll see what happens when I grow up, you know, if if one of those kinda takes over or if I'm able to kind of maintain this delicate balance between those those three worlds.

A So obviously there's some direct connection between what you're doing with Public Square Development Services and now what you're doing with the Excel Development Group. What was that conversation like when you were setting up your working arrangements with Excel Development Group? I'm assuming you asked, right, to continue the work that you were doing with the public square development services.

B Oh, they actually have no idea. So this podcast isn't public, isn't it? Yeah. No. I, you know, I think the sabbatical provided me an opportunity to to meet with a bunch of people. And I traveled around the region to see what guy what everybody was up to in terms of affordable housing development and and kind of community development and, downtown kind of renewal projects, those kinds of things. And I think it's helpful to know what you wanna do before you start the conversation. Right? And so almost into the 1st month of my 3 or 4 month sabbatical, I launched Public Square as the thing that I knew that I I needed to have in my life that I was missing. Like, how do I how do I do consulting again, but in a way that I was more spiritually satisfied with? So, like, how do I help all these partners that I already had in a way that could be not just episodic, but, like, longitudinal? Like, how can I how can I enter the lives of these partners and they in mind, more, longitudinally to help them at the stages where they needed help, but then to always be available down the road, like, you know, not as a commodity, but as like a partner? Like, you know, I'm still around.

B I'm not going anywhere. Like, how how can we we structure this thing in a way that makes sense? And so I knew that that one I knew that that had to be a part of my life. And then when I started talking to leadership at Excel, it was about how that perspective could inform their portfolio and their practice. I mean, they have to want you. Right? Is you can't just sell them on this thing. But if they want you and your brain, then then that's kind of part of the package that comes with it. And at the time, they were interested in diversifying their project typologies, understanding that tax credits are getting more and more competitive. And so that's probably not going to be the the basis for sustainable practice and development in the future.

B So how do you how do you augment tax credit development with some genuine mixed income cross subsidy work? Can you combine low income developments with market rate in order to make the fee that you need to make? Can you combine rental with homeownership in order to create the kind of community that most people, I think, think of when they think of sustainable places. So it's all about the layering, and it's all about, like, different sourcing and a whole array of partners. And so that's kind of where I'm at with Excel. The other really helpful thing that I would suggest is to negotiate a part time role. I'm 3 quarter time with Excel, and that was intentional. I could have been full time because, obviously, I'm still gonna put full time hours in most weeks. But the part time arrangement for me, helps me mentally leave at 5 PM some days. If I got another project meeting with the public square or if I just need to be a dad that night, it helps to kinda create that that divide and the cover, the spiritual cover I need to not feel like I'm shortchanging anything.

B But also it it provides, I think, the basis for for Excel leadership to understand that if Wayne's not here, right, that's okay. He's doing development work for us. He's out meeting with partners or whatever, or he's working on projects that are gonna ultimately benefit us either through just knowledge acquisition or experience or or in some cases, like direct, development of, you know, plans into into projects. So so there's that. But I think if you can structure a thing in a way that recognizes the value you bring but but doesn't exploit the economics of either party, then I think you're you're on your way to sustainability.

A I think you just helped me really just in the last 5 minutes kind of solidify the difference between me as a consultant and me trying to be a fractional COO in an organization, and and how that works, and how to describe it in a way that architects could potentially understand.

B Oh, yeah. Well, we need to we need to talk more often then if we can have revelations at once.

A Well, it's been helpful for for me. I don't know how helpful that has been for you. But it is kind of a you are a member of the team, and you have the authority to act as a member of the team. But also, in doing so, and I never necessarily anticipate, as a fractional, that, like, I'm gunning for additional leadership. Like, I'm not, I'm not going, I'm not positioning myself ever to take over, take over as, as CEO, But because I'm doing other things outside, I'm bringing in a new perspective that somebody who is otherwise heads down in the work full time can't really see. So

B Yeah. And that feels I don't I am not. You are far more conversant with the dynamics of Silicon Valley than I am. But it seems like in more modern workplace settings, you know, I think Google has the the every one day a week, people are allowed to work on their side hustles on company time and and do their development work and their programming work and all that for other clients. I think I think there, is some value in just recognizing that we all contain multitudes, and the work that is on our, job description is not, for many of us, the totality of what it will take to make us happy professionally. And so, like, how can we how can we complement that in a way that allows us to all be people and to help our teams engage together in a higher way by potentially being a little bit more transparent about the other things in life that we're working on. Whether you know, one of my coworkers, teaches gymnastics, and she's been at this club for 20 years. And she's just she's known she's known far more for her gymnastics teaching, which is 6 or 7 hours a week than she's known for being the project accountant for the tax credit developer.

B Right? But but it it's certainly not the hours, the thing that she spends the most time doing. So how do we just how do we recognize each other as as layered people with a lot of different interests and strengths? And and, you know, how can we leverage those skills that are that are in service to other things to help our teams get better?

A Right. And also allow people to pursue everything that they're those various all the different passions that come with those various different layers that when we're able to do, I think makes us happier at individuals and human beings in the end.

B Yeah. Yeah. Like, if employment could be a a rental arrangement, right, instead of an ownership arrangement, like, it's like your whole life does not have to be about this place, but we would like to rent some of your time each week. And, you know, if at the same time, you could kinda bring to the table some of the things that you're learning from your other rental arrangements, that'd be awesome.

A And I like how you kind of brought it back to home ownership and rentals.

B Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you can't change all your stripes.

A What's your advice for either your students, I mean, your lecturing back at, you know, the University of Nebraska, or or any young architects or emerging professional out there who's at the beginning of their path when it comes to figuring out their own path through their career?

B Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, I I said earlier and, you know, I think it's worth reiterating that that it takes all types. You know, if you're if you're not necessarily grooving in the design studio, it doesn't mean that you need to find a different career. It just means that maybe you're gonna play a different role on the team. And if you still wanna be involved in architecture, there are, you know, roughly a 180 other things you can do aside from being the lead designer for for projects that, you know, only come around once every, you know, 4 or 5 billing seasons. So the other thing I would say is just the and this is gonna directly contradict what I just said, but there's a lot of different ways to design.

B In a lot of my projects, I design through Excel. You know, putting a pro form a together is far more critical to the success of a project than the site plan, at least initially. So, you know, what your design tools are, I think, can also help you figure out how your contributions can be made to the world. So, you know, if you are a really great systems thinker and can can put a flowchart together about how a system works, and help somebody deduce what parts of that system could be improved to effectuate the outcome, and that's, you know, that that can be infinitely scaled as micro or macro as you'd like it to be, then then you are a systems consultant or a systems engineer and can figure that out. If if you wanna be a finance person that understands how projects come together or a construction project manager because you understand, sequencing and and how to motivate people to give you their best version of themselves. There's all sorts of ways that skills can be utilized in both conventional architectural practice and nontraditional practice. I I I just don't want anybody to feel like I want I want architecture school to be a lot more like my social work experience, where we are an accelerator and not a gatekeeper. Because if there's somebody that that is an architecture school, it's because they have a passion and a fundamental belief in the built environment and its importance.

B And there's absolutely no reason that we can't find a role, for them. And while they're with us, while they are students at our university, how can we make them the best possible version of themselves to go out and improve our mutual profession together? Right? So, like, they're gonna be our peers, they're gonna be our colleagues far longer than they're gonna be our student. So, like, let's let's kind of figure out how to invest in these students and make them great collaborators, great partners, and incredible thinkers so that when they do get out into the profession, we're able to partner with them and and kind of improve our lived experience here.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.