Architecture, And: UX Strategist

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're exploring the intersection of architecture, design strategy, and technology with Emily Privet McNamara, a design strategist and researcher at Amazon's device design group. Emily's career path is a testament to how creative professionals can pivot into new spaces while staying true to their core values and passions. Emily's journey began with a strong academic interest in biology, which she blended with a passion for people, creativity, and building toward a better future.

A After starting her career as an architectural designer in the San Francisco Bay area, working on projects from high end retail to non profit urban streetscapes, she transitioned into design strategy, enabling her to work on diverse projects with different timelines. Today, she applies her background in architecture to product design with an added interest in health tech, creating devices that impact millions worldwide. In our conversation, Emily shares how her architectural training has shaped her approach to problem solving in tech. The challenges of designing for a global audience, and her vision for the convergence of architecture and technology. She also offers valuable advice for architects and designers looking to pivot into tech. Whether you're curious about the transferable skills between architecture and tech or inspired by non traditional career paths, this episode highlights the exciting possibilities. Let's dive in. Hi, Emily.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted. I'm so happy to have you on.

B So great to be here. Thank you. It's great to see you again.

A Yes. But prior to this, we were just talking about, like, when was it that we actually met in person? And I think it was definitely pre kids, I want to even say it was pre marriage. It's definitely been a while.

B Well, it was certainly when I was working in architecture, so very relevant to this conversation.

A So another icebreaker that we commonly ask our guests is, is there anything that you're looking forward to either professionally or personally coming up? That's not in your bio?

B Yeah, I'm I'm personally really passionate about working in healthcare and working for increasing representation for clinical trials and sort of enhancing the dataset from a broader perspective. So I'm really curious to see how opportunities may surface in that capacity.

A Are you touching anything right now regarding healthcare in the work that you're doing today?

B I did on my last team. I was able to work with the health and wellness on a few projects. And it was really eye opening and really empowering and really exciting. So, you know, I've I've been interested in in health tech for most of my career. I just haven't really had the opportunity to to practice that. I think one of my earliest memories in architecture was studying the the early Scandinavian hospitals. I'm looking at how, you know, the intervention of fresh air and wall paint color really helped aid recovery in the hospital context. And so that was kind of a seed that was planted for me early on.

A Interesting. Okay, I feel like we can go down a different rabbit hole on that. And where I see interesting things happening in health tech that I feel like architects and designers should be aware of, but they aren't. But let's let's stick on your career path for this time. That's great. I will stick there. Long haul. Yes.

A And so one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on is because you do identify as, like, a UX strategist researcher. And when people ask me about switching from architecture into tech, they one of the first things that pop us up is UX design. And that's only as they actually know what UX design is. So why don't you start off by telling our audience a little bit about what is UX design and your current role? And then we'll go from there?

B Yeah. I think that's that's a great place to start. My current role is at Amazon. I'm working within the devices and services design group on the centralized UX team. So we are in the devices and services org, which is all of the Amazon created devices from anything with Alexa to Fire TV, tablet, e reader, so forth. Certainly expanding the portfolio into smart home as well. And UX stands for user experience, and it really encompasses all of that, from different types of designers working on motion, graphic, visual, sound, to those crafting words and stories, as well as the UX researchers who work to help understand the customer better and help inform the design and and the overall experience.

A I mean, so much of what you said is why the architects have an affinity, right, towards being a part of the UX side. You know, all of the questions we ask about how people use their buildings is essentially the same type of questions that a lot of UX researchers are asking about how you use a product and how you move through various different product screens. I didn't even think about the acoustical component of that. So thank you for throwing that in.

B Gotta use all the senses.

A Yes, all the senses. But I also actually think it's a field that while architects think it's maybe one of the easier fields to jump into, I would just want everyone to be aware of the growing field of UX design and the competition for talent out there. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

B Excellent question. And there's certainly a ton of overlap and opportunity for transition into that field. And to be honest, when I was in college and studying psychology and architecture, UX wasn't really a thing, and UX research and design strategy certainly weren't things either. I'm sure the first hits you'll find when you start to look into design strategy is certain things around human centered design, and you'll uncover sort of how the Bay Area has been kind of a hot spot for that over the last few decades. And and, certainly, it's been a real exciting opportunity for me to be here for the last few decades and kind of watch that blossom across industries. But, yes, there's certainly easy transitions between architects and UX. And UX Design is a multitude of practices and specializations, as what you'd say for for architecture. But I think, you know, there's there's certainly opportunities for those to have those transferable skills, yet.

B There's also opportunities for further education, if you want to sort of dive deep. I'll also say that I think that there's a lot of specialization based on what type of career you want to have in UX. There are similar to architecture. There's sort of working in house. There's working in a consultancy. Each of those comes with their own conditions that kind of change. And in that capacity, you know, you can either wear many hats and kind of be this UX person extraordinaire and do research exploration, development, tech, and design, or you can work in a really large organization and become really hyper focused in this niche space where you only design, you know, something really particular and really specialized because there are so many others, with other experiences. So I think one theme that we'll definitely talk about today is sort of looking at the the wealth of opportunity in a space and then kind of diving deep on sort of what types of things you're after and finding ways to surface those those opportunities.

A So I want to bring it back to your own personal journey, because you do have a background in architecture and how you got into this. So why don't you start off and you know, and you worked for an architecture firm in the Bay Area, several, several. So why don't you tell us about that and tell us a little about your architectural background and then why you began to even explore, opportunities beyond traditional practice?

B Certainly. Like I said, when I was in college, there wasn't anything around experience design or user experience design, and so those were very unfamiliar to me. But I was deeply passionate about this whole concept of experience. And while I made a joke a moment ago about sort of using all the senses, there's actually a lot of more tangible practicality around that for especially accessibility and inclusivity. So it's not only about immersing yourself across different senses, but it's really about finding opportunities for as many people as possible to to use your product. But, honestly, I came to San Francisco kind of on a whim. I was in college. I was given an opportunity to be an intern at a small sustainable firm in the city and work very closely with the partner and sort of just shadow him in everything from his teaching engagements to his client meetings and meet the small team that he worked with, and it was such a ripe time to be in the Bay Area with regards to sustainability.

B It was amazing to meet some of the people that I was able to meet then and sort of see how they've grown today as sort of true pillars of the sustainability movement. But alongside that, I just, you know, kind of experimented and worked at a number of firms in different capacities. I was helping draft 1 small architect working on these mega mansions and and trying to do some model making with him. And then eventually, I kind of found a role at a at a larger firm and really got an understanding of what what the industry was like, so to speak. I worked part time during grad school so that I could kind of balance this understanding of what is my goal, where am I going, what is the reason I'm going to to graduate school. Funny enough, I never really had the impression that I was going to become a licensed architect and practice as such, but I was deeply passionate about the opportunities that a skill set around architecture could provide.

A Did you say you never had any inclination to become licensed?

B Yes.

A Sorry. And I know this is completely off topic, but I feel like, you know, as a young architect, I was like, and maybe it was my involvement in the AIA. Like, that was my only path forward.

B So many of my friends, the same age were in the same boat. I really don't have an explicit explanation for it. It's just something that I kind of always knew in the back of my head that architecture was kind of this amazing opportunity that would open doors to other avenues, but I never saw myself as someone who would have my own practice or or really committed entire career to architecture. It was I mean, being in graduate school was extraordinary to to work in sort of these defined constraints and unusual timelines and brilliant professors. But at the same time, it was a really interesting, you know, kind of contradiction to working in an actual practice and being a little CAD monkey for a while and, you know, kind of figure out the day to day realities of that.

A So it's interesting that you, like, came into the profession, you actually worked in firms with that type of mindset. So when did you actually and what was the pivotal moment that you actually began kind of exploring things outside of the firm?

B I think there was a micro pivotal moment when I was hired by Pentagram, which is known as initially, you know, kind of a broader type of design agency with several architectural practices to help round out their capabilities. And so working there, I I loved the opportunity to to blend the branding of the environment, the branding of the company, the branding of the space, and so forth with sort of an actual physical space and kind of plant those inevitable seeds of experience design. But the real big takeaway for me was, I guess, sort of joining a different group of friends, really finding my friends close here in the Bay Area, many of whom completely randomly were industrial designers. And at that point, I learned about sort of all the places where they were working, and those were small consultancies that worked across many disciplines of design from, you know, getting into digital because of the time, but, like, primarily physical products and converging with, you know, a little bit of research, a little bit of strategy, you know, reconciling business needs with with customer needs. And I just really love that blend across all of these different disciplines, each of which had its own unique language to speak of. It kind of had its own metric to operate under and and kind of monitor things. And so I was just so impassioned by bringing all of these things together. And when I learned about what a design strategist was, which was kind of being amidst all of these other things, just really enthralled me to be sort of translating across these worlds.

B And maybe that was similar to my comparing, you know, being in graduate school, being in one world, and then being in sort of the professional sense on on Fridays. You know, just sort of this this interesting juxtaposition that I found myself in and it it just kind of naturally happened and I haven't really looked back.

A Yeah, no, I mean, I guess the, you know, the follow-up question to that then is how did you find and I think a part of it honestly is being in the Bay Area, right? Being connected with these others individuals that if I had stayed, for instance, in Springfield, Missouri, as an architect, I probably wouldn't have as many access to industrial and product designers as I would out here in the Bay. But did you I mean, did you actively seek out I I also find, like, a lot of my architect friends hang out with fellow architects. So it does take a bit of a moment to step outside of our box and to think about, like, what are other things? Like, how do I expand my friend group? So is that something that you found yourself naturally doing? Or is that something that you're like, you know, what else can I, you know, what else can I be exploring in order to expand what I do with my degree?

B Well, I'm I'm a very social extrovert. And so when I was in my twenties in the Bay Area, I loved going to lectures, events, series. Yes. Many of which were architecture focused and thus were with other architect friends, but they eventually grew into other domains of other forms of art. And I found myself volunteering with architecture for humanity for a number of years and just meeting new communities and meeting different people. And, ultimately, I just kind of uncovered these these other dimensions to what capital d design is. And I think to your point around the Bay Area, you know, it's it's super interlaced with technology and and sort of larger initiatives and innovations as they say. But I think a lot of it was just this eagerness and excitement I had when I was younger to just really meet people and doing these inspiring exciting things.

B And at the same time, I was also kind of one foot in the door with graduate school and one foot in the door working in a firm. And so I kind of had these 2 social groups right there off the bat. And so that kinda led me to explore other ones as well.

A So you actually went and worked at a company that I was when I was figuring out what my next steps were that I was toying around with, which is fuse projects. And if for the architects that don't know a fuse project, you know, Yves Bahar is a very well known product designer. He actually has a ADU out on the market. So he's crossed into to building building design as well. But how did you find your role at Fuse? And it was it? Did you apply? Was it kind of a cold open? What did you change about the way you applied to Fuse versus kind of how you apply to any of these other architectural organizations that you were working for? How was that process different?

B Yeah. I think that's an excellent question. It's certainly a lesson that I repeat to myself today, just sort of, you know, as my own personal career evolves. Fortunately, the the head of brand and strategy at the time was a former architect. He's still alive, but, you know, you know, he he understood that language, and there were other design strategists on the team as well that were trained in architecture. And so there was a natural understanding around how an architect trained brain works, how it problem solves, how it understands process and problem solving. So in terms of cold call, again, I hate to say it, but but times were different 20 years ago. It was a lot smaller of a community.

B There wasn't as saturated with so many brilliant other people. I also got lucky in that I just happened to know a few folks at at Fuse Project. But, you know, I also looked at other other smaller firms at the time like Lunar and New Deal, Frog, and and so forth, and my gosh, I could keep listing more. But Fuse just really resonated with me just because of the the way that their work just felt most exciting, I guess, is is the simplest way to put it. So I I reached out, and I I started as an intern, and I ate my humble pie and kind of sat there and and just tried to soak as much up as a sponge as I could and truly understand what is it to be a design strategist. The outcome was not physical built environments. The deliverables were not, you know, drawing sets. But, you know, there was a lot of overlap in terms of applying for a process.

B To to take your question literally, my portfolio was still the same. I was just talking through problem set, approach, solution, but ultimately, it was it was a really easy transition in that sense. I certainly had a major insecurity, and this brings up your earlier point about formal training that some of my colleagues were actually trained in design strategy. They had more UX driven skill sets, whereas I was just sort of a transferable skill. And so for me, there was a lot of discomfort in that learning practice. But, you know, after some time, you kinda realize that there's a lot to to learn, and there's a lot of opportunity as well.

A So following up on that question of portfolio, and I struggle with, you know, we have a great podcast that I'll link to in the show notes about another person who came through on UX Design. And his, his tactic essentially was like, at some point, you have to drop out drop all of your architectural work, because so many people don't understand what an architect does. So then trying to one, educate, like simultaneously educate somebody on what an architect does, and why the portfolio is relevant to the job, like, the education process, while you're a candidate of the job is like not the best time to be educating somebody. So, you know, as as your experience has grown in what it means to be a design strategist on the UX side, you know, how how did your portfolio eventually change over time? Or even in your interviews for Amazon? Do you even refer to yourself or identify as an architect? In those instances anymore?

B I mean, I certainly am uncomfortable with this because on one hand, there's always that elusive like seduction that everyone loves about architects and architecture. Right? There's there's Seinfeld episodes about it. There's memes. It's like, come on. Like, there's something really cool about architects. Right? It's it's this amazing, amazing place, and I certainly have this pride in that part of my education with this, like, dedication and rigor and camaraderie and, like, just how, you know, incredibly difficult it is to to pursue that. So I there's part of me that's never gonna lose that. Right? That's that's part of how I came to be.

B And, certainly, I reflect back and wonder, like, gosh, if I had just gone straight into school, which, as I mentioned a moment ago, didn't exist, you know, it's like this hindsight 2020 situation. But, you know, I think a lot of my sense of craft and and curiosity and sort of finding beauty in things and my my own personal sense of taste is is absolutely informed by my training as an architect. So it's it's certainly a part of it. So I think my degree in architecture and my my tenure in practice are certainly things that I use to kind of cut some chops in here to sort of say, hey. You know, I do have some design credentials. But when it comes to sort of presenting a portfolio or applying for a role as a UX researcher or a design strategist, which are similar but not related, and I'm happy to get into more around that. You know, I I have hints around my early beginnings where we're trained in architecture. This is how it's relevant today, but ultimately, to to your other, you know, guests point, yes, I I don't have, you know, primarily architecture in my portfolio.

B I don't even know if I have any of it anymore. But then again, I'm lucky enough to have been doing this long enough for my portfolio could be like this never ending list of things, and I and I can, you know, kind of pick and choose based on the context. But, absolutely, I I don't think you can separate the 2. I mean, it certainly informs so much of how I see the world and how I apply creativity to my work.

A So let's double back just on that your response about the difference between kind of research and design strategy. How would you distinguish and I feel like they're in kind of a disappointing sense to my listeners. I feel like if you ask even some like a peer of yours in Amazon, they might answer that a little bit differently. I don't know if there's a, in my mind, the definition is varied. I'm more than happy for you to tell me that I'm wrong. But I would love to get your your definition and and how those 2 are distinctly unique.

B Yes. I think a lot of it depends on on context, first and foremost. I have several friends that also sort of define themselves as design strategists. However, some of them work in products, some of them work in brands, some of them are marketing. Again, this is kind of the downside to strategy is that it is interpretable. It is open to interpretation. It is nebulous. However, that is the strength is that, you know, you can also be this higher level future forward voice of, you know, a strategy, which in my mind is really just a plan.

B It's like a strategist is someone who defines the context at present, the vision of where you wanna go, and then the plan to get there. And then, you know, a design strategist in my mind, you know, incorporates more values of design such as, you know, empathy and creativity. And, you know, there's obviously always or almost always a business case in there. And so there's a there's a market context and there's a user context and kind of reconciling across all of these different buckets, to me, is what a design strategist does. And in terms of a UX researcher, this I have so many research friends that will definitely take me to the mat on this one and and certainly prove me a little inadequate. But in my experience, primarily in hardware, research has been really understanding the customer and reconciling the needs of the customer with the design delivery that's shipped. And so there's sort of this proactive sense of where should we go, what should we build, how do we design, as well as this sort of reflective, retroactive, reactive sense of what have we done, how is it working, how can we improve it. And so there's this really great opportunity to kind of sit strategically in between those two worlds.

B And, you know, there are strategic researchers. There are UX strategists. You know, some of these words, you know, kind of overlap and intersect, and I think this is probably a really good context for me to use my favorite metaphor of all time, which is what Charles and Ray Eanes did with their clients early on was this beautiful Venn diagram of the role of client, the role of designer, and and a few others was dynamic. It's moving. It's always changing. And I love this idea and this visualization and this practice of these components of a Venn diagram, not only overlapping in different ways, but fluctuating. Right? Sometimes they overlap a lot, sometimes a little, but they change, they adapt, and they grow. And seeing that has changed me probably more than, you know, seeing some other architecture buildings that really lit my fire.

B But, like, that that that diagram, I think, really helps show that there's a lot of interpretation. You know, these are kind of relatively new fields, and there's still a lot of variability in its definition. So like I said a moment ago, it's context. It's it depends on where you are and and what you're after.

A And I appreciate that reference to context. And I think, like, given given that reference, it makes it easier to decide, like to discern what is a design strategist, because for the longest time, I also called myself a design strategist. But I was still very much working in with a real estate portfolio and data. And what does that mean? But I always get people that come to me then, because it's like a title and a job title somewhere. And they're like, I want to do design strategy. Tell me how to do design strategy. And I was like, well, that's sucks. Saying, I want to be a consultant, tell me how to be a consultant.

A Like, I need a little bit more context about where you want to be in that world. And then they're like, well, what is design strategy? And I was like, again, it can be so many different things. I don't know how to, I

B don't know

A individually how I would define what design strategy is. So I appreciate you putting your own bracket around that. And you just had me I remember seeing the Eames diagram, the Venn diagram, and it's been so long. I just had to, like, go look it up again, and I think I think I'm gonna like, that's tomorrow's LinkedIn post now. Like, right there. So thank you for reminding me of that. Maybe we'll link it into the show notes under from the Eames office page. One other thing that I find interesting about the difference between technology and my friends in the Bay Area outside of architecture and those in architecture is that my architecture friends tend to stay in one place at along for an extended duration.

B Most of their career, it seems

A most of their career, I talked to my tech friends, and you know, they're like, I've been here for 2 years, it was a year longer than I anticipated staying. And I feel like, I mean, the kind of the resume that you built out is more related to that. So, you know, as you've evolved and grown through your career, what are you looking to? How have you looked at the next opportunity when it comes to getting ahead and making a move at the right time for you?

B I think that's a great question. And while I don't wanna defer to context again and sort of get back at people's needs, I think for me personally, it's really been a reflection of my personal sense of growth and my personal competence around things and recognizing that, you know, working within a team, a company, a group, a job, it's kinda it's a two way street. Right? You know, there's things that I give to a team and contribute, and there's things that they give back. And so I've stayed at Amazon for over 7 years, first of all, unexpectedly, but there was a global pandemic in there. But honestly, it's, you know, it's like as I was kind of sort of to hit my groove on the hardware team, which was my initial role as a researcher, I was speaking to this current team about creating a a design strategist position and really building out a design strategy practice within the centralized UX. And I was like, well, goodness. That's a once in a lifetime opportunity to define a portfolio for a company like that. And so I I had to leap at the opportunity.

B And all of that is to say that, you know, it's it's about learning and growing. And as long as you find yourself creatively fulfilled, then there's no reason to leave. I I certainly know that there's a lot of financial advantages in the tech world to every time you change a job, there's most likely a significant income boost or compensation boost. But, you know, I think it you have to really consider what's important to you. And for me, in those early days of my career, as I was really trying to gain that confidence and certainly those those hard and soft skills in research and strategy. It was really about finding incredible people to learn from. I mean, I was honestly working with my dream team. Shout out to VBP Orange because they're a small creative agency.

B They're no longer around. It was actually within an advertising agency, which is something I never thought I'd be a part of, but just the whole understanding of similar to Pentagram, you know, these experiences coming outside of one domain, you know, bringing advertising to experience, bringing this brand to the real world. These were the most incredible people, and I I loved it so much. But a friend of mine had an opportunity at Amazon, and the intrigue for me was twofold. On one hand, it's like, gosh, you know, I've never worked in house. Curious to see what that's like. The opportunity was around global impact, shipping products to millions of customers around the world was really exciting. And and, honestly, to go back to that early insecurity, it was kind of my opportunity to really create a formal education for myself around defining myself as a researcher.

B I was able to really, you know, tell stories around research. I was able to really understand research, you know, proving to myself, but also to to build my own career around just different methodologies and understand why would I use qualitative versus quantitative. And then in even more deep, you know, depth and detail, what types of methods would you use within those. So it was just really curious and exciting, and it was really sad to leave, but it certainly opened a lot of opportunity for me that, you know, I wouldn't have had anywhere else. It's such a large company. It's incomparable.

A Yes. And I think I would say I would argue that there's even some listeners that when they think of Amazon, they don't think of a tech company, even though kind of Amazon. Absolutely. When they fall under FA, I think they think of it as like a store right first. But, you know, and but this goes back to kind of some of the earlier conversations that I've had with people that have gone into user research just in tech. I think the other interesting thing about bringing you on is Amazon begins to bridge tech with, obviously, their their hardware, their own hardware. How is product development, a little, like, different? Like, can you tell me about actually the role that you play within product development in your current role? Because so many different things have to happen and teams have to come together, similar to a building, to make a a product work.

B Yes. It's really remarkable how many people have to come together to make things work. And, you know, I think Amazon is at this really interesting inflection point where they've been able to expand with incredible innovation, you know, over the last 20 years because they've been able to move so fast and and invent so quickly with these small, nimble teams. However, at the same time, you know, we've become very siloed. You know, our our products are are very, you know, vertically oriented. We, like other companies, you know, we ship our our org. So I think it's, you know, it's it's a really difficult question to ask or to answer just because it's it's so nuanced and so complicated. But, yes, Amazon has a has thousands of people within our devices and services team.

B However, there's other hardware companies that are much, much smaller and and fewer people wear more hats.

A But I guess, you know, what does and more specifically, then what does your role become in all of this? Because I almost the way you're kind of describing how you're bringing everything together, I almost would say almost fall under design operations to to, like, bring the team together. So can you help us understand a little bit more about what is your specific day to day?

B Yeah. Well, now we're gonna get personal because your question is very prescient. When I when I first started, I was working with a different manager, and it was very much focused around developing a portfolio strategy that was reflective of customer values based on the insights that our research had done, which is, in layman's terms, simpler, easier to understand is is what we're selling to customers really what they want? Like, is it is it matching what they expect? Is it delivering a value? You know, we've got these amazing things doing incredible things and, you know, Alexa is everywhere. Right? But it's also become pretty confusing to customers because Alexa is everywhere, and it's hard to say, like, why would I want this device over that one? And so the opportunity to really reconcile the business needs of, you know, hey. We sell this many products, and we do this many things with these many features with sort of what a customer is thinking and feeling when they walk into a store or go online and say, I want Alexa because I've heard it's really useful. I've heard their you know, this great thing in my home. How do you how do you bridge that conversation? How do you reconcile those things? Because to your point, there are thousands of people that help get these products out the door. The team has has certainly evolved and grown, and I am doing a lot more operations work right now.

B And so, currently, I'm in a very different territory that's not as connected to customers per se, but more about upholding the bridge between research and design. We have a design quality team. We have design quality standards, and that's what our team is is implementing. And, you know, currently, I'm I'm kind of trying to to balance that that bridge between who's doing research, what are they learning, and who's doing the design, and what do they need to know about customers to to deliver appropriately. And so creating these mechanisms, which is a very Amazonian term, to help support these communications and and ensure that the right information is shared in the right way at the right time. Again, design thinking, design challenges, but through a different lens of kind of more strategic thinking and to your point, operational planning.

A So I'm gonna do another little segue and talking about what it's like to be an employee at Amazon and to be onboarded as an employee at Amazon. As a for instance, when I was hired at Slack, they were onboarding 40 people a week. Similarly to I've I mean, I imagine the onboarding at Amazon 7 years ago was, you know, something of of of similar nature. So is there things that you have experienced or learned being in this world, either Amazon or even previous jobs down to a fuse project that you believe the architecture industry could learn from? Is there anything that architects could be taking away from the technology sector about how we research, how we work with clients, how we work with customers, the employee experience? What could we potentially be doing differently or better?

B I love that question. I think it's it's really interesting. And one of the the biggest, most contentious words that feels in larger companies is is around culture and certainly in the wake of the pandemic is is really around sort of, you know, work life balance and how things have changed, but but culture is really a big part of it. And I think that, you know, so much of of what is loosely defined as culture comes around as, like, swag and events and and things. But but, ultimately, it really comes down to to practice and trust and connection and community. And I think there is that inherent connection with architects because we all go through this incredibly intense process. Whether or not you're licensed, I you know, no shade to those who are smarter than me. You know, like, you there it's still a really rigorous profession that the detail is is so intense that there is camaraderie.

B At least I encountered wonderful camaraderie. You know, I think there's there's a really interesting exchange between that and and the tech world with with regards to sort of creating community. And I feel like there's when I worked in architecture firms, the hours were long similar to now, but the culture was still different. You know, there was that that closeness, and I'm and I would only imagine it it varies from firm to firm or, you know, context, of course. But I think with regards to operations, you know, there there is a lot of personalization, it feels like, when you're, you know, onboarding at a large tech company. It's sort of, you know, a lot of attention around you and how you were selected. But there's also that intensity around the the interview process where it's, you know, hours on hours and person after person.

A Is there anything else, either in how you run your team, or how you do user engagement that architects could learn? What lessons could architects take away and use in in their projects about how you run your design team and how you run client engagements?

B Yeah. I mean, I think there's sort of, I mean, stakeholder engagement is is such an important thing. You know, change management, these are, like, big corporate terms, but they they really do have important roots and and, like, you know, good intentions. Keeping people in communication and connected is is so important, and the opportunity to collaborate is so important. But with regards to research, you know, understanding your user, I think, has opens up so many so many opportunities. I I mean, I still remember working at Organic Architect, which was the firm that brought me to San Francisco in 2006, and just sort of how casually, you know, the partner there, the founding partner was talking about, like, oh, yeah. And I've got this sort of interview survey that I give to all of my clients and and kind of just get to know them. And it's like these little things between, like, are you right handed or left handed while you're chopping your vegetables to put your compost away? And I was like, oh my gosh.

B That's that's so, you know, bespoke and so exciting, but also it it matters. Like, this is all back to experience design. You know, the the buildings we live in shape us. We spend so much time in them, whether it's home, work, you know, stores, schools, everything that, you know, it it really is these little details that that make the difference, and I would argue make us human. And I think that ultimately is kind of what life is is about, is kind of finding these moments of joy, finding these moments of ease, you know, really addressing these these really high level motivations that humans have.

A What is interesting to me, as you mentioned several times throughout the conversation, you know, design experience, user experience didn't really exist as a field of study way back when, you know, as old as we are now. But if you if you were somebody that was interested, that had all of these paths open to them now, as somebody coming out of high school. I mean, you both, you and I both have young children. Do you think you would have chosen a different path to pursue?

B I really hope the answer would be no. I think there's something just so deeply beautiful and deeply at the core of who I am around architecture. I think it's no coincidence that I was brought into architecture because of my interest in art and experience and psychology and all of these things together culminated for me. So I I can't imagine myself having gone directly into research or sort of there's design strategy programs and so forth, but it's so much about how I approach problems and how I think about the world. And it's so physical and yet emotional at the same time that I don't I don't want to say that I would ever choose anything else, even though I've, you know, I've moved on from it in a way that I didn't expect.

A And then my, you know, my next question is, because I always I have a lot of people that are always reaching out to me about alternative career paths. So, yeah, so you know, what, what is kind of your response to those architects that are interested in pursuing another path? You know, what are what are the takeaways that you always give at the end of the the 30 minute Zoom coffee chat that

B they request? I mean, I think the the TLDR is always, you know, follow your heart. But, you know, understand that there's a reality that this is a career. You know, it's a paycheck. You need to make money, of course. I mean, I mean, the advice is is really just to have that confidence, and and don't be intimidated by these artificial barriers of non common denominators. You know, it's like you think that if you are transitioning from architecture to product design, that it's a whole new world. And, yes, there are different terms and there is jargon, but but, ultimately, you are able to apply skills to solve other people's problems. You are able to address needs of a company through the skills and and tools you have in your your toolbox.

B So maybe it takes a little time to to find a mentor to help with that translation and find the common denominator. But, you know, overall, I think that if you're, if you're curious in tech, I think there's a lot of opportunity to kind of take liberties with that interpretation. And if you're curious in things beyond tech, I, I would still argue that you can still tell a story of a really robust skill set that has applications beyond designing and building buildings.

A You're at this interesting place, where, like I said, you know, Amazon does tech, but they also do hardware. And you said, you know, now there's, there's smart home things, and there's kind of a confluence of technology and building. Where do you think or or what's your perception on where that's headed and how architects should kind of educate themselves about how what they are doing can be influenced or changed over time, as technology and building continue to converge?

B Wow. I think that's a really incredible question and really provocative in terms of where the future could go. I think, you know, with with the rise of additional technologies and kind of homes becoming more sentient and smarter, like it or not, and hopefully, we'll have the opportunity to to keep it at bay or bring it inside and walk it into welcome it into our homes if we want. I think there's a really beautiful opportunity of thinking of your home as kind of similar to your computer or your phone, your smartphone. Right? Like, your home has its own operating system and has a memory. And I think that could really unlock a lot of really cool potential across sustainability, across community, across so many other things that just seems really neat. I mean, you know, prefab homes and and ADUs are nothing new. They've been around for so many decades.

B Yet what if those started shipping really fully in immersed with, you know, embedded technology. Right? So that you didn't have to go buy a smart light bulb or install this component on your wall, but it was actually built in. Just kind of creating more seamless experiences, I think, is is kind of the net net of that. But, ultimately, just making our lives better and and quite intentionally, ironically, bringing us away from technology. Instead of having to look at a screen, you don't have to necessarily, you know, defer your attention from something important. You can just kind of let technology take over, assuming you have that trust, of course, but just sort of let technology run its things so that you can focus on what you want.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.