Architects, Innovators, Podcasters with Michele Grace Hottel

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're kicking off season ten, where we are counting down the last 20 episodes to 200 episodes on Practice Disrupted. Over the years, we've interviewed more than two twenty five guests exploring the evolving landscape of architecture, business and innovation. For the season opener, I'm switching things up a bit.

A Instead of being the interviewer, I'm sharing the mic with Michelle Grace Huddle, an architect, advocate and host of I've Never Met a Woman Architect Before. Michelle has spent decades shaping the profession through her practice, Michelle Grace Huddle Architect, as well as her leadership roles at the AIA, CRAN, and the California Architects Board. She's also a dedicated voice in the conversation around attainable housing and the future of residential design. Together, we're reflecting on how we started our podcasts, memorable conversations that shaped our perspectives and where we see the profession heading next. It's a conversation about growth, impact, and the stories that don't always make headlines, but have changed the direction of our careers. Let's dive in.

B Hi, Evelyn.

A Hi, Michelle. Thank you for joining me and for interviewing me and actually just having a conversation on my podcast over here at Practice Disrupted.

B Yes. And I had you on my podcast. Eighteen, July two thousand eighteen.

A Yeah. I feel like you're, like, one of the first architects I knew that, like, really dived into podcasting. What made you interested in doing it?

B You know, Evelyn, I've I've no I mean, I think that well, like, Bob Borsen was kind of he was gonna start one, but I didn't even really know at the same time, but we both started it after the AI conference in New York. So so I had gone there. I decided that I was gonna interview five people, and it was kind of because and five people that I knew from the AIA conference. And so that's kinda what I decided to do, and I wanted them short, like, these short little podcasts because I was, like, thinking I was still thinking that people would listen to podcasts, that they would listen on their commute. And so I was trying to keep them to, like, fifteen minutes. And then during COVID, right, we were all stuck at home, and all of a sudden they were becoming an hour long. And so now they're they're about an hour long. Yeah.

B So some of the first ones are, like, fifteen minutes, and then most of them are, like, an hour.

A So are you a big consumer of podcasts yourself?

B No. And, Evelyn, I don't even know if I'd listened to that many podcasts when I decided to start. And I actually, when I started it, I just did them I did voice memo on my iPhone. And then I just embedded them into my blog because I had started my blog in about 02/2014. I had started blogging in 02/2014. And so then I just included in these blogs, I included. And then a couple years ago, I actually got, you know, a hosting site, and then I transferred all of them over to the hosting site. So when when did you start? It was

A definitely a COVID era podcast, but I think the things that we started addressing were just things that we had seen collectively in the industry, having been involved in volunteer leadership, you know, with the AIA for so long and having come out of business school, both of us at various different points of our lives, and thinking about architecture from a a practice standpoint, a business standpoint of, you know, I was very much engaged in employee experience and in the tech industry, and Janine was building her own practice that was she was still finding her way. I think she is okay with me admitting that, like, her practice continues to pivot as she focuses on what she's most passionate about. But mentorship and leadership development has always been kind of core to what she does. I felt better having a co host at the time. Janine's welcomed back to the platform whenever she wants. I just say that she's taking a nice break and I'm not quite sure how long it is. I mean, I'm kind of excited about season ten because they say, like, once you get past five podcasts, like, only a very small percentage, right, of of podcasters get past five, let alone 20 episodes.

B Really?

A Yeah. You're closing in on 70. We're closing in on 200 at the end of the season, which is, which is incredible. And I was going back through my database of guests and I'm glad I get to add you to that number now. And, you know, over 200 episodes, two twenty by the end of the season, and then two twenty five guests, inspirational conversations for me. I hope they've been as inspirational and aspirational for our listeners. I have learned so much through this experience. Do you find that you often learn through interviewing and podcasting?

B Yes. Yeah. I I definitely do. When I met Tom Kundig, I always thought of, like, some of these architects, and I just and I I just kinda was in awe of them. I mean, of course, there were people that, you know, I mean, you and I were both in LA and, you know, in the nineties. Right? You know, where you went to SCI Arc. Right? So you're kind of like you've known all these people, you know, and sometimes you have a good relationship with them, sometimes you don't. And Tom is just like such an easygoing guy, and and I can, you know, I can just email him and say, like, hey, what is the name of your new book? Or like, oh, can I like include you in this? And he's like, oh, yeah, sure.

B And he gets back like, oh, yeah, sure, Michelle. It's like really nice to have those relationships with these people that have very successful practice and and also kind of, like, see that, you know, that they're real people. And, you know, he's like a real person. He has real lives. He loves to mountain climb. You know? It's like so it's

A I just left a conference where Brooke Scarpa was keynoting, and I just

B Oh, yeah.

A They're another group that I feel so honored to be just be able to kinda pick up the phone and, you know, talk to Larry or Angie or Jeff whenever I feel like I need to have a conversation with that incredible caliber of of architect. So yeah.

B And those were people that I mean, you know, it's like I used to work with Angie at Appleton's office. So, Steve and Angie worked together for a while, and then I came in when they had, like, a lot of work and work there, and that was when Larry was with another partner. We were all in LA. We you know, they lived, like, several blocks away from us, and, you know, we knew them from back then.

A So it was interesting because in preparing for this podcast, here is my interview head again to like, you talk about how you get pushed back from the quote unquote more traditional architects, which to me is ironic because I feel like what you do is so much more traditional than what I do. So where are you getting the pushback from architects saying like, oh, you're not an architect?

B Well, I mean I mean, actually, it was kinda funny because when I was at the AI CRAN Symposium in Seattle in September, I had an editor of a magazine, like, asked me if I was even if I practice architecture or if the podcast was everything, and I'm like, no. Podcast isn't everything. I have I have an architecture practice, you know, and, I had actually written an article for that magazine that was in there, and some of my work was published also in that same article. So I don't know whether it's I mean, also, I went right? Like, I kind of have that that tradition that we started that is now very prevalent where, you know, women, they, you know, they give birth. If they're not in partnership with their husband, you know, their spouse, like some other partner, you know, I felt like I wanted to have my own firm. You know? It's like financially, it didn't make sense for me to go back to an office because all of my income would have went to childcare. And so this is in the early nineties, and nobody nobody was doing that. Right? It's like, you know, there was only one way to practice architecture for, you know, our time.

B That was, you know, in a firm. Like, you went into the office, you know, you didn't have, like, you know, you couldn't just work part time, you couldn't work. So I can remember being at, you know, some openings and talking to other architects. And one of the guys was like, you know, he said, like, oh, like, what are you doing? I said, well, you know, I'm I'm raising my kid, and then I'm working part time. And he's like, oh my god. I can never do that. You know? I can never work part time in architecture. You know? And I was like, well, I mean right.

A I've definitely gotten you don't fully understand the grind. And I was like, does it always have to be a grind? Like, that in itself is a is problematic to me. Right? The fact that in order to be in architecture, you have to invest yourself in the grind.

B But that's because we're in a male dominated field, and there is only one kind of way. Right? Like, there like, men weren't having babies. Right? Like, we've been you know, it's a male dominated field, and it's kind of this other mindset. In architecture, it's kind of always been like this this field where people feel like you have to be dedicated. You have to do a sixty hour work

A with a dedicated

B yes. It becomes a lifestyle. Right? So people say, I mean, you know, they'll, like, ask me, like, oh, what do you do for fun? And, Evelyn, I'm like, oh.

A Go look at architecture house tours.

B What do you do

A for fun?

B What do you do for fun? No.

A I mean, but to be fair, because we do have male listeners on the podcast, I will fully admit, like my best mentor, my best boss that I ever had in tech, male. Amazing. There are some incredible, incredible mentors in architecture, some who I've been lucky enough to call dear friend, like, like, dear friends. I've just been unfortunate to not be able to be in their direct sunlight when it comes to to to working with them directly.

B To me, it kind of seemed right. Like also, you know, residential architecture. Right? So if people, you know, if they're corporate architects, they worked for a big corporate firm, you know, they kind of look at residential architecture as kind of like, oh, you do residential, you know. And then Really? Usually yes. Oh, yes. Definitely.

A But the residential architects are the ones that win all the design awards. Like, if you are in the LA market, you know, and have clients with a certain level of budget.

B Yeah. I mean, exactly. Exact I kinda see it. And I kind of see that a lot of these you know, it's like Tom Kundig. They started right. He he's really known for the houses. I mean, now they have bigger work. The firm is bigger.

B They've got these bigger projects. You know, they're doing things for Nike. But, you know, but, again, it's the house. And, I mean, Tom kind of, like, talks about house as being like that's where we can do our research. Right? Like, we can do all of our research on on the house. You know, it's a smaller project. We can kind of, like, do things that, you know, that maybe we couldn't do. You can

A get clients that are kinda, like, that kind of the right clients that trust you. I do know that there's a lot of obviously, I feel like there's a lot of struggling sole practitioners out there that have problems finding the right clients and find themselves undercutting themselves, and they are going to head to head with GCs because they're working at a scale that doesn't necessarily require an architectural license. So I get I get both sides of the coin.

B Yeah. So, I mean, I I don't know. What do you what do you think is one of the reasons why? It's more it's like less the design process or the way that we're trained. And then they're thinking that you have to use that training in order to go kind of like the corporate route.

A I always wondered about the duality between like, like now firms, I feel more often than not are either like, we're a design first firm. Like they identify themselves as design first, which is an interesting way to identify yourself. I feel like in my head when people say we're a design first firm, certain types of firm culture, for better or for worse, like kind of pop into my head, right? Certain types of ideas about how they would approach things kind of pop in my head, you know, and then like, what does that make every other firm if they don't consider themselves a design first firm?

B Yeah. We're the we're the we're the schlock firm that's turning out plans for its big box wars or something. Yeah. It's we're the money and we're the money making firms. Right? Like in the post of it, you know, I'm on make money making.

A Nikkita Merle is an amazing copywriter. Right? And she's been on the podcast before, and I it just, like, have her in my mind. It's like every architect is a designer. I don't practice architecture. I knew getting my stamp that I would never stamp anything. I I did feel like I had to make it to the end of that path. But I feel like I design things. They're not just they're just not as tangible.

A It's just a little harder to wrap your head and your physically your hands around what I design.

B And I think also it's a it's a way of thinking. You know? I mean, I think yeah. I mean, I think of it as a way of thinking. So it doesn't matter what you're doing, whether you're designing, like, a large scale building or you're designing, you know, coursework for things. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, it's this conceptual thinking, but then it's also the follow through. Right? It's not just always coming up with big ideas. It's actually building on those ideas, working out any problems that are coming up, and then coming up with this, you know, the result of those ideas. And whether that is, you know, a software program or whether that's a a building, you know, hospital building or something like say, you know, I think that that's kind of, like, where our specialty in thinking is.

A No. I actually think our like, people talk about how architects are problem solvers. And my counter to that lately has been, well, everybody is a problem. Like everybody self identifies as problem solving, like a problem solver. I think one of our superpowers really is around implementing, right? Because even if you consider the big consulting agencies and not to put them down, because I was definitely like, definitely considered the consulting path while I was pursuing my MBA. But there's, there's a stereotypical joke behind like strategic consultants. They like, they hand over a binder of work, and that binder of work often gets shelved. And frankly, as a workplace strategist, a lot of my work that I poured my heart and soul into did get shelved.

A But I think there's a certain level of implementation. If you think about how every building is in fact a prototype, usually often a one of a kind that is the architect's superpower when it comes to seeing projects through to completion.

B What was your original vision for the practice of architecture? Well, so

A it's interesting. Right? And I think we have a lot more new listeners on the podcast. So practice of architecture or the business practice of architecture started while I was in business school. And I was like, oh, why aren't we, you know, always complain that we only get an hour of professional practice through our NAB accredited degree, right? Like only one, a one hour lecture on professional practice was required. And I don't know about your experience, but my experience in undergrad was you opened the architect's handbook of practice. Every chapter is like a week during the semester, and eventually you've worked your way through the handbook of practice. But anyways, I was, you know, I was studying finance and economics and marketing and brand strategy and, you know, true different methodologies of innovation in business school. And I was like, why don't, why aren't we learning any of these? So practice of architecture and its beginning was purely curated articles that I was reading in business schools.

A And I was like, hey, architects, you might find this interesting. It's still a little bit of that. And I still honestly am operating on the periphery. I'm one of the foundational advisors for women defining AI. And there's definitely a lot more tech influence now than when it started. But it is it is one a collection. If you sign up for the newsletter, it's a collection of, hey, you might find this interesting and here's how it could be potentially relevant to practice. But it's evolved.

A It now includes a podcast. I have a community, which is a group that I think of disruptors that are really interested in different ways to approach practice. And they have more direct access to myself as what I would call kind of a fractional COO or fractional operations person. But yeah, like, as an example, this week, I found a LinkedIn post, where somebody, one of my tech friends had shared all of the interview guides for all the major software companies. And I thought about it and I was like, architects complain about the interview process all the time. I don't know a single architecture firm that is even the large firms that's producing like an interview guide to say, like, here's what, like, here are the questions we ask, here's how we would like you to prepare. It's not necessarily always spelled out on architecture websites, but this is kind of what our culture is about. Basic things that could help candidates improve the quality of the interview.

A So not only you as a firm leader can get more out of the interview, but also it's just overall a better experience for everyone.

B And I and I think that that comes up so much, you know, in the in the different groups that I'm in on either, you know, women or the mother's group. You know, just I mean, these you know, people are always asking, like, oh, what what do you guys do for this? Like, what is your HR? What is your parent parental leave?

A There's there's so much we can do to, like, improve little aspects of the employee experience.

B Yeah. And I'm always thinking like, isn't that out there? Is that not out there somewhere? I mean, is there not some standard?

A It isn't. You know, when I have free time, like, I'm looking, I'm trying to develop at least a resource every month. But that's, those are the type of resources that I'm beginning to put together. So one, as a very good example, one of my communities member shared out their employee handbook. They're a medium sized firm. They're like, this is the first time I've ever had an employee handbook, but they they didn't consider some things that that maybe somebody who had who had who had produced the employee handbook had thought about before. So an example that I always give, for instance, and corporate world is struggling with this. Like, what does return to office look like? Right? And I think there are Enjoying the show? Join a community of fellow disruptors at practiceofarchitecture.com/community.

A Your membership helps support the production of this podcast, Practice Disrupted, and funds the creation of more resources for all of you. Looking forward to growing together. Join us today at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Actually, some really amazing leaders out there that are like, we have a completely flexible policy. And if you look into it, like, they do have a completely flexible policy. But them as a leader shows up to the office every single day from eight to six or from seven to six. And I was like, that is great that you have written out that you have a flexible policy, but because you show up from eight to six and you are the CEO of the firm, you are essentially mirroring behavior saying that in order for you to be in my leadership position and to grow in leadership position, You need to mirror that behavior. And I expect you in the office as much as I do.

A And it's, it's just like, it's just kind of an, like, all good intentions, but unconscious consequences.

B And, you know, I mean, most of the people that I've, like, worked for, you know, they were in the office all the time. Right. You know, they've sold their practices, and they're still in the office every day. As an insult.

A I think we can have a whole discussion. And I might actually bring back some ladies that I interviewed previously, I'm thinking about bringing back four architects, and some of their leaders to talk about, like, what leadership transition looks like, because they that's still going to be when we talk about workforce and what the future of practice looks like. There's still so many small to medium sized firm that have aging leadership. I just talked to somebody who's like, oh, we just finally switched over to ESOP. And then I saw another company that like, we're still in ESOP, but the owner doesn't wanna like, the owner doesn't wanna sell any share. Like, they haven't begun that transition.

B I've heard that from people. I've heard it that that they've had this whole plan in place, and then the and then the guy, I'm saying guy because, you know, but but I mean, you know, whoever the person is, that they've they've gone home for, like, two weeks on a break or whatever, and then they come back and then they're like, yeah, I don't wanna retire. Like, I'm gonna be

A Yeah. And then another conversation, honestly, that we had in the community is is these firm owners that haven't done estate planning. Do you have an estate plan?

B I'm I'm working on mine right now. Right? Because I mean I mean, that is definitely something. But, you know, I mean, Evelyn, I've talked to some of my friends because I was trying to get referrals, and I think I'm gonna go with this one person. But they're attorneys, and they haven't done an estate plan. I was like and they have kids, and I'm like, oh my gosh.

A Your kids are at least, I think of an age that are a little bit more self sufficient.

B And we had a will, like, from the age that she was, like, one. Yeah. A will and, like, what was that? Yeah. That was fine. But because, you know, my late ex husband passed away, right, we need a truck for the house.

A Yeah. So, I mean, so I was talking to somebody who's just like, yeah. If I pass away, I guess the firm automatically goes to my wife who doesn't have any background in architecture. And I was like, well, what does that mean for your employees? And it's not, I mean, it's not an unusual situation because I I just don't think many people think through that. And they're like, yeah, well, ownership transfers, but what does like from a day to day business, if you have employees that you're paying, does that like, that is a lot to put on a spouse after such a or or any partner after such a traumatic event. But that is something that I got taken care of that my husband and I got taken care of, my partner and I got taken care of last year. Cause in the state of California, and maybe maybe somebody scared me into it, but they're like, if you don't have a plan and identify who your children even get temporary custody to, They go into protective service or they go into the system so quickly, and it just becomes that much harder to pull them out and get them over to the right parties. And I was like, my kids are so shy and introverted.

A It would be enough to lose both of us, but then to have them living with strangers on top of it, like

B Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good thing is I can tell you from, like, people that have been, like, wrongly accused of stuff with it, it takes several months before they actually show up at your door and try to take away that. You and they would have to be taking them away from from, like, your fam like, your family would. Right?

A Or friends. I mean, but, like, we we have it worked out to, like, these are the individuals that have temporary custody because Ryan and I have no family within the state and to know who they will go to and how, how that how they'll be able to manage that that they'll be taken care of. And that while they will be an extra responsibility, they will be less of a family like less of a financial burden to that family.

B That's I know. I know. And, Evelyn, it's it's funny because, like, you don't I mean, I like, I can remember when we did ours, we didn't we didn't tell anybody. Right? We didn't tell anybody. And then I mean, I think we might I think we might have yeah. No. We did we did tell the people, but the other part of the family, like, just brought it up one day, and we were and they were and I was just kind of, like, putting it off. And I just said, like, you don't have to tell you don't have to tell the person if you flick if they've been made, you know, if they're the custodial party.

B And then she was like, oh, no. No. You do have to. And, and finally, I just said, we already did. And then it was course, it was it just erupted into this huge argument. And I was like, you guys are arguing over both of us dying, like, which is very rare anyway. Yeah. It just turns into this big dump.

B But yes, I think that people should get things taken care of and, you know, and it makes I don't know. I I just I just saw, like, some friend had said that the person thought that it was, like, superstitious or something to do. I was like, oh my gosh. Like, don't don't think that way. It is making it less difficult for your family and everyone involved. Yes. Yeah.

A But but this goes down anyways. So I know we're a little bit off track here, but this also goes down to firm succession, firm planning, and even considering who is next in line, what happens to ownership, heavens forbid, should somebody something happen to to the owner. That's not even succession planning. That is just business continuity planning.

B Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, and then some people, like, I asked what, you know, when you're doing it, they wanna know how what is the value of your business. Right? Like, for mine, they wanna know what the value of the business is. And I'm like, well, gosh. I don't know. I mean, do we have anything that, like, kind of says, like, what the value of the business is? We have to and a lot of people, you know, the only one that I could even get a number is that one of the people that I was on CRAN with had recently gone through a divorce, and so he had to have it appraised. And he could say, okay. I can tell you exactly what it is.

B But I mean, that's really not the the way that you should typically be, like, coming up with things for your business.

A These are not the things that we tend to necessarily talk about in practice of architecture. But I also think we like to be more forward thinking. How do we automate the things that are very dreary, that we don't want to deal with? There are some amazing time trackers out there that as long as you're working in some type of app can now track like how.

B I totally, I totally need that, Evelyn. I mean, like, I even noticed that it is so good to have it on my phone just as far as how much screen time. You know, of course, a lot of times I'm doing in my email, right? So that's like coming as screen time or whatever. But it really but yeah, I would love to have like some type of automatic tracker.

A I always wanna put myself and my business in a situation where I never have to fill out a time card ever again. It was like the most, one of the most freeing things, because I was one of those people where our bookkeeper or the office manager or whoever was in charge of getting time cards would always be bugging me and threatening me, holding out my paycheck. Right? Because

B Really?

A Well, I mean, yeah. On a few instances. Right? If you don't get your time in, we can't. But I was definitely the one that they're like, Evelyn forgot her time sheet again. And at that, by the time that you're doing that, honestly, how accurately?

B No. And, Evelyn, everybody does it. There isn't anybody that yes. Everybody does it. And and even even my my stepbrother's wife actually had to go with a big firm. They had her doing that, and they you know, she was on them or sending out emails. And the head of the firm totally gone on her, and she broke down sobbing because he was coming back. But I was saying, like, hey.

B That's a huge firm. Like, they should have had their time cards in in order to do that because, like, that's all about business. But I don't know why, you know, it's like, we probably you know, we need people to be telling us to do that already. So if it was you know, if if it could somehow be automated. Right? Like, I would love to just hit a button that said, you know, right, just have all the lists of things. I don't wanna give up my brilliant ideas. Right? Doesn't Slack it's like Slack didn't have anything like that?

A Well, we don't have to keep time cards on Slack. That's why I was saying it was so freeing. Right? I mean, the the one thing about working on projects, like internal projects where the deadlines are set internally is, like, the budgets and and time are allocated are just allocated and thought about

B Yeah. Yeah, in

A a different way. You know, it's not it's not t and m. It's not. So the day I started, and I realized I didn't have to submit timesheets. I was just I will never go like, heaven helped me if I ever find myself in a position where I have to retract my time again. Anyways, one of the things that I've been playing around with and people in women in defining AI is playing around with is leveraging like, make or Zapier, or pipe dream, which is like no code automation software, if you get a certain type of email. So if you want to think about like a submittal email with like, or, you know, if you get an email from somebody that's inquiring about like, Hey, are you taking new clients or something that I could wake up in the morning, or I could set aside a time in the afternoon at three, where those emails are automatically filtered through chat g b t or Claude, Claude is better, for natural language systems. And then, you know, they respond to in your email and it lands in your drafts, so you still have your eye on it before it goes out.

A But to have all of those type of emails that you find yourself, like, copying, pasting a lot of responses or you're like, I like, I just need a standard response to this. Just, like, kind of done for you Yeah. And just be able to go, like, send, send, send, send. Yeah. Yeah. Things like that.

B So there isn't anything like that out there in the real world?

A No. You can build it. You can you can build it using no code tools. I think it's just a matter of teaching people how to build it. But that's that's I mean, those are the type of conversations we're having in the practice of architecture community.

B And I mean, I I can well, I mean, I had used to have to write questions for the California supplemental exam, and we would go through AHAW. And it's just like I mean, that is one of the resources. That is one of the resources. But, I mean no. No. And that's fine. That won't do it. I mean, I won't I mean, they know that.

B It's one of the resource, and I won't give any of it. But it's just like that was the only time because, Evelyn, I didn't even take professional practice because I was in Denmark for a year. So I had, like, the Danish architect, which actually translate you know, which that transferred for to take care, which didn't have anything to do with business here. I had nothing to do. So I never even read up until I had to write questions. And then I was, like, looking, and I was like, oh my gosh. We need a better book than that. So can you start writing that book, Emma? The book for pro practice.

B A real book. A real book.

A You're not the first person to say that. I appreciate it. Thank you. I've been talking to a number of publishers about what that would look like. And I've been thinking about, you know, spinning up a very specific group within my community focused on professional practice professors, because what they have to the nuances of what they have to cover these days, especially if you think about EDI and proper protocol to remove bias, for instance, even in the hiring process and what that looks like. There's just so much more nuance there in terms of things that you could be teaching in that one hour seminar. So for all of them to come together and be able to have a dialogue about I found an amazing speaker for this, or, you know, ask about like, how are you teaching about ethics, you know, and the importance of ethics and what? Yeah, I mean, you could even go in and say, like, what is the AI overlay to to ethics and to one to build that discourse. But two, yes, I mean, I thought about a book a little busy this year for a book, but it's definitely I've been talking with different interested parties about it.

B Yeah. I know somebody that's teaching pro practice, and they were they're teaching it, like, different than he, you you know, he said, like, yeah, this is not the way that pro practice was ever taught when yeah, when he was going to school. And he's like, why wasn't it?

A But the thing is, what people learn in pro practice is so dependent upon who they get as their professional practice professor. And it's so wide and varied, but that's also, I mean, that's also why I think it's just interesting to see how that varies from from school to school.

B And, I mean, we did we did have a person that did pro and I knew who, you know, I knew who that architect was, and he was kind of active in the you know, he was active around, you know, in the city of Claremont by Cal Poly, and he was, you know, he was kinda I mean, he had his own practice and stuff. But, you know, we kind of like you still have, like, oh, you know, oh, pro practice. It's, like, so boring, you know, da da da. And I kind of, like, laugh. I said, if we would have known if we would have known

A How important pro practice could have been.

B Or even right? Like, we're all hanging out with each other in the EMD Building. We should have been hanging out in front of the business school. You know? It's that's what I always say. It's like, that's where we should have been hanging out. Should have been hanging out with all of us that were like in there, we're never gonna get any work from from all of us. We're gonna learn stuff at the business school outside. Heather Vickery

A 2five thirty seven Yes. So definitely coming up on this next episode or this next season of Practice Disrupted, I do have a handful of what I would consider architecture and individuals in there. And I talked to I just finished interviewing Vardan, who is the founder of ACE lab, and we talk about how he is a non technical founder, which means he doesn't code, but he is also a founder for a SaaS product. So even if you have an, like a good idea, like what are the steps to bring it to life? So those are some of the things and some of the things, some of the other things that my listeners have asked is to get back to like, can you give us more examples of what traditional firms are doing? And or what traditional firms are doing differently? Or I mean, I like to think that I like any firm that I bring on is like operating outside of the traditional sphere, but like essentially what are architecture practices doing differently out there? So I am bringing in a few different architecture practices. The leadership does tend to be on the younger end of things. They probably don't have succession plans in place or business continuity plans in place, but they are still, like, very much kind of forward thinking firms.

B You know, you know, who's oh my gosh. What is the name of, I think it's I think it's The Hive. Is it The Hive that's in Chicago?

A Mhmm. Yeah.

B Yeah. Have you have you ever talked to him before or, like, know anything about him?

A No. But they have an interesting crossover with real estate.

B And he's an amazing speaker. I mean, he spoke at the CRAN Chicago Symposium, and I really wish that that would have been forwarded to yeah. I mean, he was just amazing and just kind of the whole thing. And, of course, there were a bunch of naysayers in the audience. You know? Why are you doing that? I don't understand. But, I mean, there was definitely I was I was fascinated that there was definitely a way that you could become an associate. Like, this was the way that you could become an associate. It was from day one.

B Right? From day one. And if you didn't want to kind of go that way, like, he's like, typically, those people leave after a year. You know? Otherwise, they become an associate after just, like, a few years or something. But just kind of the way that it I mean, the structure was, like, really, really interesting because he's one of the only people that's kind of said, this is the way you become an associate. This is the way you can

A At the firm?

B Yes. Yeah.

A Yeah. I think it's very I mean, it's what's interesting and what we're finding of the younger generation is they actually want a very clear career path. Like, spell it out for me. So firms that are able to provide that, I think will find greater success in ushering along this younger generation than firms that are like, kind of learn it as you go. It looks like your podcast is rolling already for 2025. You just released episodes.

B Yes, yes. I just with, Marcia Body Rhodes. And so it's about and she's accessibility, a body accessibility. And then she also she just has a great outlook on life, like, just very motivational and kind of like, you know, it's like, just keep going, you know, and kind of yeah. Just just like a very positive, you know, outlook. And so and so she's always like kind of posting motivational things.

A No. And she she gives the mother an architect's group. Right? Like amazing ADA continuing ed require like, I've I've definitely, I think, signed up for a few of those, but anyways, more on Michelle's podcast. Have you ever met a woman architect? Can be linked in our show notes. And I think this is, this is kind of a dual interview here. We interviewed each other.

B Yeah.

A Michelle, where do you find yourself as advice that you traditionally give younger emerging professionals in the industry? And it can be anything from being a woman architect or or even starting your own firm. Do you find there's anything that you find yourself saying over and over again?

B I think I'm, like, saying over and over to people. And I mean, this is this is what I've got. Like, I've I've been asked several times by people, like, can you can you mentor, like, women in my firm? And I kinda laugh, and I'm like, well, I don't know whether you're gonna want me to mentor the women in your firm because I might be telling them something that you wouldn't want them to do. Because I would I would kind of, you know, I mean, I would encourage people to be able to have a flexible schedule, you you know, be able to have these things. And there are things that I've told other people that have asked me, and they've and they've said, like, no. I don't wanna do that. And I'm like, well, that's kind of what I would tell them. And and, you know, I mean, I would say, like, start start your own firm, you know, where you can have more control of your schedule, and you can be with your kids when you want.

B You know, it's like you're you can make more money. I mean, I you know, it's like you can put in the time that you want to. And I said, you know, it's like, I don't think that that's gonna want you know, I don't think that that's what you're gonna wanna hear, you know, for

A For somebody that you're mentoring and somebody else's

B Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so that's what I kinda did. You know? And, I mean, I'm not telling people to, you know a lot of times people say, when when do you think I could take, like, oh, I did a project on my own. You know? Should I start my own firm? You know? And it's like, no. I said, yeah. I had a project on my own, you know, when I was working for somebody else.

B You know, the project was, you know, they didn't want, you know, they didn't want to have it in the office. I was doing it outside of the office that I was working at. And, you know, and then I had always worked at small firms, so I was always wearing all the hats. And so that transition, you know, to running my own firm was, you know, I started at 29, but I already knew kind of the process, and I'd worked for some people that were really, you know, good architects that had a good, you know or I'd worked for people that I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. You know? Yeah.

A So my final closing question to you then, I hear that a lot. Right? Start your own firm, flexible hours, potential to pay more if you have the pipeline coming in and you actually know how to manage a few things and price your workout well. Like, what are what are some of the harsh realities of entrepreneurship?

B Oh, my goodness. There's a you know, there's a there's a million harsh realities. You know, it's like you're you're always going to you're always gonna have to be looking for work. You know? I mean, it's funny. Arconect, they they, interviewed me, like, during COVID, and and, Paul said something like, oh, you know, yeah. She's a hustler. You know? And I'm like, gosh. I don't I don't wanna you know, she's always she's always hustling.

B And I'm like, yeah. Well, you know, I mean, when you're a sole proprietor, it's like, yeah. Every person that you talk to is a potential client.

A So then back back to where this all started.

B So the small light, it's like, I love to design. The portion of design that I get to do is very small. So if you want to be designing all the time, like, don't work for yourself. I mean, you can maybe bring other people in, but you're not gonna be designing all the time. Like, that's gonna be, like, five or 10% of the work that you do.

A So final final question, bringing this full circle back. Is it less of a grind for you to be on your own than for you when you were ever in a firm? And what's what's the best part about that?

B It's the luxury of choice.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.