Architectette takes on Practice Disrupted

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, start up advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Hello, disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. We're wrapping up season 8 with a special twist today. I'm in the hot seat. Joining us is Caitlin Brady, who's flipping the script to interview me.

A Caitlin is a project architect and associate at Iyer Saint Gross, where she specializes in higher education architecture. Beyond her design expertise, she's a passionate advocate for inclusion in our field. Through her work as an ACE mentor, volunteer on local AIA committees, and host of the podcast Architecette. She's amplifying voices of women in architecture and beyond. Her contributions to the profession earned her the AIADC Emerging Architect Award in 2023. In this candid conversation, Caitlin and I dive into some of the biggest lessons I've learned from navigating failures to balancing entrepreneurship and family life. We'll explore generational dynamics and architecture, my shifting definition of success, and my hopes for 2025. Get ready for an honest, reflective, and inspiring finale to our season.

A Let's get started.

B Evelyn, so happy to be here. Thanks for having me on your podcast, and I'm looking forward to interviewing you.

A Thanks, Caitlin. Thank you for previously having me on ArchiteXX. Happy to have you on Practice Disrupted. We've kind of made it a habit of bringing on podcast hosts both to, like, start off and end our season. So thank you for your willingness to participate, I guess.

B Yes. I'm so happy that you invited me. And I'm hopefully, my interviewing chops, they come through, and and it's a great episode. So so I prepared a few questions. And I think that, you know, we all know that especially your listeners are very familiar with how you're kind of like a pioneer in this architecture and tech space. So what was a failure or a setback that you faced in your career that that really changed your way of thinking?

A So I don't know if I would qualify it necessarily as a failure or a setback. I think it was more of a real like, a big turning point for me was the realization. I was doing schools, K through 12 schools, which I thought would be a wonderful place to land because, you know, you are building the learning facilities for our next generation of leaders, thinkers, teachers, etcetera, parents. And it was just the realization that the school board was essentially your client. Like, as much as you wanted the teachers and the students to be your end client, the way things were set up, the school board as the client. So I for me, it was just this realization that as architects, we we don't really always get to talk to the end users who we would hope would be our primary point of contact. And that, you know, the way that the client is positioned isn't, I mean, honestly, it isn't the best use of, of our time and engagement and figuring out what the, what the end users want. And I worked with too many clients that, you know, upon completion of our building or our upgrades, you know, they weren't communicating with the end users what we were doing.

A So they're, you know, so we never met their expectations or like we, we were always just falling short. Or if there was something that, you know, we could have talked to the end user a little bit more about, we could have delivered better for them, but that opportunity wasn't there. So a part of me was, those are the people that I want to talk to. So if I'm not in that role as an architect in a firm, how do I create that space for me? And that's when I kind of started going down with the rabbit hole with, with, you know, where is the value of architects, who are we speaking to, who is really using our buildings in the end, and and and on and on from there.

B Yeah. And did that change what type of job you looked for when you went into your next position? Like, was that before you transitioned out of the practice of architecture and into more of, like, the tech or analytics?

A Yeah. So that for me, it was a point of inflection where I didn't know what I was going to do next. And I ended up leaving architecture and going and working as a program manager at a nonprofit organization called Public Architecture, which unfortunately has since sunset. But there, I ran a program. I was the 1st program manager for what they called the 1% program, which essentially asked, back then, it didn't have the negative connotations around what the 1% was. And I think they ended up changing it to the 1 plus program, but it essentially asked architects to give 1% of their billable hours towards the public good pro bono, and then we matched them with nonprofit organization in need of design services. So for me, that was the ability to actually connect the end users with the architect. So that was the mental break that I needed, and it was what I felt was a move in the right direction at the right time.

A It was also the year it was only it was never meant necessarily to be a long term thing. I was also covering for my friend at the organization while he did his well, he was essentially did the American Academy in Rome, did a year abroad there. And so for me, that position was only ever going to be a year. I didn't know if it was going to be more, but I used that time to figure out what was next. And ultimately, that was when I decided to begin to apply to business school because I had no idea what would be next after that.

B Mhmm. Why did you settle upon business school?

A Business school because we always complain about the lack of business acumen that architects have. But also I felt like there's other like, I wanted to seek out other career paths, which puts me in touch with the people that I wanted to affect most. And at the time, it was, again, the end users of the building. And and it didn't necessarily for me, it didn't necessarily need to be buildings. You know, where are the jobs where I can be interacting with the people that are gonna be directly affected by whatever it is I design or make. And, you know, business school was, it was only meant to be like a 2 year exploration of whether or not I actually wanted to stay in the built environment and what that looked like. And ultimately, I ended up coming back in some degree. But it was also just kind of, for me, it was a break from everything that I did to re center and say, is this the right career path for me? Did I, you know, this decision that I made as an architect in 4th grade, you know, has that changed at all? And that's what I took the time to do.

B Yeah. Well, I think when a lot of us make that decision to become an architect, we're thinking about such a small portion of actually what we do in a in a day to day practice. We're like, oh, I'll I'll do floor plans, and I'll I'll meet with people, and I'll I'll interact with the children and find out what they want in their schools, and I'll interact with the teachers and and see how they wanna teach and what they want in their classroom spaces. But then you don't think about all of the code and the technical detailing and the business side of things and the admin and pursuing projects and business development, all of those more, you know, I wouldn't say mundane, but, like, the heavier things that aren't just, like, let your creative spirit fly. So well, it seems like that's that's a huge deal to make that pivot and then pursue business school, which I'm sure, you know, you've talked about a ton, and then we all know now. Recently, you've made another pivot where you found your niche in tech and kind of built a name for yourself there and and expertise, but then you have since left what a lot of people call golden handcuffs. And I used to live in San Francisco as well, so I know that, like, those jobs in the tech companies, especially pre pandemic, were wonderful, and they had a lot of perks that architecture firms just really couldn't compete with. What has it been like since you've left? And it's like, how how are you building this new era of your your business life?

A It's been a struggle, honestly. It's been a struggle on a lot of different aspects. I think mostly because my time this year has been pulled apart in ways that I didn't anticipate, and that's fine. I think that, you know, that happens. My promise to my partner and to my husband was that it would take me 4 years to recoup essentially the salary that I was making in tech. So I was just trying to be logical about what the growth of the business looks like. But at the same time, and then also where I'm taking risks is a lot different. So I am an advisor to a handful of companies.

A In that capacity, as a startup advisor, I'm it's really an equity play. So unless or until those startups find an exit, or then I can then sell my shares, I'm not being paid for my time. But you, the hope is that you will be well compensated at a later date. So those are the things that we are balancing now. We are living I mean, honestly, we are living off of the shares that I got, as being part of a public company. So I was at Slack. When I first joined Slack, it was before they went public. So I got a decent boost when we went public.

A Those shares got better when we were acquired by Salesforce. We sold a good deal of our shares before Salesforce really took a dip. So that's the money that I'm, like, that's the money that we're using right now, our savings essentially to support us as we're growing the business. So while TEC provided the golden handcuffs, I think they also gave me the ability to take on entrepreneurship in a less risky or less scary way that allows me to kind of build intentionally.

B And it it sounds like I mean, you've mentioned your partner, you're also a mom. How do you consider those different responsibilities when it comes to taking these professional risks? Because, obviously, it's a it's a play. Right? Like, you want to keep advancing your career. You want to go higher and achieve more, but there are, you know, there's other considerations there when you have other people that are relying on you or or working with you.

A Yeah. You know, and a large part of it, again, is we have this wealth this wealth of cash infusion because in addition to my salary and to the benefits that you get in tech, I also had shares in a company that I was able to sell off. So that is been a wonderful little nest egg for us to kind of live with. But there, you know, the upsides of so we do have an au pair. We've always had full time childcare from the beginning in one way or another, whether it's a nanny, and then when both of the kids are in school, it's an au pair. Ryan and I always decided that as parents, we would be happier and healthier parents if neither of us are 1 stuck being like the primary day to day caregiver of the kids. And that's something that I talk about. I really struggle with what it is like to be a good mom sometimes, because I've never been one of those moms that have wanted an entire year off for maternity leave.

A I mean, it would have been wonderful, I guess, to be at a tech company when I had my kids. They happened pre tech and to have taken advantage for that year, but but literally, I, like, I got my real estate license while I was on maternity leave when my second was born. So for me, like, sitting still was just not an option. Like, I felt like I always had to be doing something to advance myself personally in some way. And that's that still remains. I feel like I'm doing that. I feel like I'm doing that through a variety of different ways, and it's it may not be showing up monetarily right now to get back to your original question, but I feel like and you and I talked a little bit about this before I jumped on. I'm laying the foundation to build my business in the future.

A And as long as I am doing something that I think is proactive towards that every week, then I'm then I allow myself to be like, that's that's the goal. Right? And as long as by all I need to do, the promise to my husband in these 1st 2 years is to cover the cost of doing business, and I found a way to do that. So anything above and beyond that is just building the business. And in the meantime, you know, I've been able to participate in a lot more of my kids' activities. We have they're in the public school system. They rely a lot on the parent volunteers to help out. So, I just signed up to be mystery reader and to be a math helper, but those were things that I just couldn't make time for before. So so for me, that's that's the the balance.

A And for me, showing up and doing those type of things, helps me helps me with, like, the good mother conundrum and what it's like to be, like, a working a working mom in today's world.

B Yeah. Do you think that being an entrepreneur would have more flexibility in terms of motherhood or less than than if you were still working in corporate?

A I think it really depends on the company that you're working for. And this goes back to all of the, like, the return to office conversations that are happening these days. Right? The biggest one top of mind right now is Amazon who, in September October, they essentially called everyone back to the office. Then you would say you're working for a company that provides a lot less flexibility. Versus being an entrepreneur, you're essentially setting your own working hours, and that provides a lot of flexibility. But I also think that as people progress in their career over time, it was interesting, I participated in a women's leadership conversation last year in Houston. And the interesting thing is that a lot of the well, everyone that was on the panel presenting was, like, in mid I would say mid to later in their career. And the one thing that we valued most was flexibility, and it became available to us, like, through through title.

A Right? And through the firm or our bosses kind of trusting that we were going to get the work done on time and everything delivered as it should be. But that type of flexibility, I think shows up later in your career. But if you're a younger person, like, and I admire Gen Z for this, who is really interested in being vocal and adamant about having a life outside of work as well as work too. I feel like in architecture, it's a little bit harder to find places that maybe allow for the flexibility that they might be looking for. There are amazing firms out there that do, but I think there is kind of like a general expectation of, like, you're gonna put your hours in and and you're gonna earn your way to something. So I don't know. I almost wanna flip that question on you being, like, a younger emerging professional to say, like, you know, do you feel like you have enough flexibility and how has that changed for you over time? And and you being also a fully remote employee, essentially.

B Yeah. I definitely have a lot to say on that because we just the architect at podcast, we just came out of a recent grad feature. So I did interviews with 6 recent grads who came from schools all over the country, and I was really surprised that most of those women wanted to work full time in the office. They some of them had flexibility, but they really preferred to be in the office and to get that learning. And a lot of the firms that they're working at were actually really intentional about providing that mentorship and that contact and communication within the office. And I think I had taken a note. You had someone on this season. I think his name was Rolf, and he talked a lot about mentorship, about how you you sometimes have to teach people how to mentor.

B It's not always innate of just kind of learn through osmosis. It's you have to be active about it. And so pairing with the recent grad conversation in our women's affinity group, which I help run at my firm, we just had a caregiving session where we also talked about, you know, you said mid career, people really desire that flexibility. And folks that are mid career not only often have children that require a lot of time and, you know, someone is sick, you have to leave and pick them up from school and and that's you have to break your day in half, but there's also a lot of caregiving responsibilities for elder relatives and sometimes even, you know, siblings or or other people. And that pulls people in all of those directions of they're not just taking care of their households, but then they have other people that that are relying on them as well. So I think that flexibility for my career is essential. I think flexibility for all levels is essential, but where that comes in is I think it needs to be balanced with intentional time in the office. If people are coming into the office, what meetings are regular, what check ins are happening, how is information being passed, and how is information being conveyed about about technological advances or best practices or lessons learned.

B I think firms have to be, especially if they're hybrid, have to be really intentional about how they are connecting those generations that are requiring different levels of flexibility. I had an experience where I was living in San Francisco. I'm from Philadelphia originally, but I was living out in San Francisco, and I wanted to relocate back to the East Coast. My partner is from the Bay, but he wasn't quite sure about where on the East Coast. So we ended up both getting new remote jobs, and we did a year of the digital nomad thing. So we were moving all around, trying different places for a month at a time, different Airbnbs in different cities across the US. We ended up settling in DC. But during that year, I learned a lot about actively reaching out for onboarding onto my firm and and getting to know people there and learning who resources were and how to work best with people on projects and how to communicate my working hours versus their working hours.

B And you really have to be active and intentional to not only feel like you're part of the firm, but feel like you have opportunities for advancement too because you have to be that squeaky wheel. I have found just just to to stay relevant and to stay active and growing.

A Absolutely. And the irony of all of this, right, is that the people that the mid career individuals that need to be around to mentor, the the people that wanna be in the office to get mentored are the ones that, like, need the flexibility to go out and do all the things. So that's even more of an argument to, okay, how do we develop some intentional meetups for growth of everyone? And you said this a little bit earlier when you mentioned Ralph. We say it all the time, we don't have business courses in architecture, or we have that 1 hour, like the 1 lecture seminar of practice management. But, you know, rarely ever, I think in architecture, do we really talk about leadership development and what it means to teach people to be leaders, and as well as how leadership changes and evolves. Like I would say, you know, the leadership that I started with an architecture firm or the, you know, the it was very much an approach where you don't as a woman, you'd never apologize for anything because you're in a man's world. And I feel like I have now have and in tech, especially, have had wonderful women leaders who have led by being the most human empathetic people. And I'm like, it's okay.

A It's okay to say that as a leader, I make a mistake. As long as you show your team how you lead by example, everyone's going to make a mistake at some point, we're all human. So how do we learn from it? And how do we move forward from there? So, I mean, even the leadership styles are going to evolve and change, and what's needed to lead firms is going to evolve and change. And unless somebody's like actually keeping a pulse on what is that and how does it evolve, I I feel like we're all too heads down in project work to really consider how we create leaders in our firms.

B Yeah. Because it is it's a huge burden. During the pandemic, my firm, we used to have this Thursday breakfast event where we would I think like it it used to be like a just a donuts or something or bagels would be put out and everyone would snatch 1 and then go back to their desk. And right before the pandemic, my coworker and I were like, we should this should be more of like a conversation moment where you do snatch your bagel, but then as you're putting cream cheese on, you can talk about something with your colleagues and and stay for 5 or 10 minutes, something quick. And we started that, you know, having themes or topics right before the pandemic, and we continued it through. And over time, it is a it's a burden to do that week after week of, oh my gosh. We have to put something on and pull people together. But, you know, you have to go above and beyond, take that extra step, and and it really makes a huge difference of just building that community and sharing that knowledge.

B And like you said, it's you have to be intentional about what time people are spending and how they are spending it and build these systems into your practice. I think having those check ins the firms that I see that are having a a weekly check-in, I think that they probably have better communication than the firms that are not doing that. I've just interviewed the 2 women leaders of Atelier Cho Thompson, and they're saying that when folks are in the office, they make it worth their while. That's when they have their their all staff meetings. That's when they have things in the office, and they make it an engaging time to be in there, and they try to delay client meetings or off-site meetings for another day so that those those set days in the office are really, really powerful.

A So I think everything about the future of work is whether honestly, we talk about this like it's an architect problem, but this is true of I think all businesses. So it's it's not just the architecture industry that's like suffering from this leadership conundrum, especially in a hybrid world as we look to have people grow and develop in this new way of working. So to that end, I feel like we can acknowledge that there's a lot to learn from what other industries are doing industries that might have less of or may be able to have the overhead burden that we can't in architecture because everybody has to be billable and take lessons from how they are developing their people and think about how we can apply it to potential leadership, track and leadership developments within architecture firms.

B In terms of the burden of overhead, what are your thoughts on if if someone is grappling with, oh my gosh, I'd love to do this, but I just financially, it's it's not in the cards. What would you you've talked to a ton of people in and out of the industry around the AEC industry. What would you advise someone that, like, maybe, like, the top three things that they should really if they have that overhead, they should allot time to invest in three things.

A Well, I guess my question is, I think it's a little bit different. Are you coming at it from an owner or, like, of a firm? Are you coming at it from somebody who works in the firm? Are you coming at it from, like, somebody who's relatively new to the industry?

B Let's say that it's someone that has been in the industry, and maybe they're they're like a firm owner or or principal level.

A So I think there's a lot to be learned in general at the firm level about just the cost of doing business. It was interesting because I was talking to the CEO of a project management company. I won't name the project management company. There's a lot of great project management softwares out there. But the CEO had been talking, he's been trying to sell this. He was like a midsize firm owner. And the midsize firm owner says, I spend 20 hours a month doing invoice and billables at the end of every month. And they're like, we can get that down to like an hour.

A And we kind of joked about the fact that we don't think that that homeowner would know what to do if he got like 19 hours back every month. It's like something he complained about. But it's like, it's also like, if I gave it up, I don't know what I would do with my time now. So you know, it's easy. You asked, I know you asked for like, what are the top three things, but I think there's, there's kind of a mindset shift when it comes to the value of, of our time and the decisions you make that will actually free up more of your time. So if you are worth $100 an hour, then is there a service that you can be paying for that costs less than $100 an hour that gives you more hours back? So I would say, first of all, AI aside, there's bookkeepers, project management software, essentially, things out there that can help you free up your time to do more. And then I think depending on where you are in your firm, that's where you need to spend your free time. So business development is always going is an ongoing thing.

A Right? So take that time to learn more and do more around business development or marketing or understanding how to build a pipeline, your client needs. But also, I think, you know, change in technology is also going to be important. So if you can't bring on a consultant to help you tell you what's the next best thing that you need to be focusing on, spend some time doing that. So I actually don't know if I'm answering your question, but I don't think we value our own time enough. And that we need to place a higher, like a higher value on our own time and decide, like, what is the best of use of our time to grow the business or change the business in a way that it needs to. And I think we should also just be adapting of what is an opportunity that we are not capitalizing on. So like this opportunity mindset and and how do we continue to evolve and and change and remain relevant going forward?

B Mhmm. I think that definitely answers the question. It's not like a a 1, 2, 3

A of

B these products, but I I think that's even better. Right? Like, it's it might even be more, like, too simplistic to think of it that way as of, like, oh, we we have limited overhead. What should we spend it on? It's okay. You have limited overhead. How do you shrink the overhead that you actually like, you know, you think you need this much? I'm gesturing with my hands wide, but you really need this much. I have moved my hands closer together for those of you listening to the to this podcast. And I think you you mentioned something in terms of, like, the business development, which also made me think you're you're very good and very frequently posting on LinkedIn, kind of this, like, thought leadership, but, obviously, it's it's very applicable to driving business and driving a lot more kind of buzz about the things you're talking about, driving attention to the podcast, or even leading some of, like, the efforts that will be a year long responsibility that you have next year, which I won't name. So do you have any tips for people that maybe are looking at LinkedIn as, like, okay.

B I connected with my college friends. I connected with my consultants. So what? They're there. They're not utilizing the full breadth of the platform. What are your thoughts about LinkedIn, and how do you use it?

A So many tips. I think the first thing that everyone should realize about LinkedIn is it's like any other social media platform. The algorithm will support those individuals that keep you on the platform longer. So anytime you're sending a link that encourages people to go away from the platform or look at your website or a news article about you, the algorithm isn't going to like you as much. So, yes, there are ways to, like, do it in comments or, actually, I think the latest honestly, the algorithm is most effective. The algorithm looks at your first 20 15, 20 minutes of activity. So some creators go so far as to post something and then edit after the 15 20 minutes with the link, edit the original post 15 20 minutes after posting, and then take that time to comment on other people's posts to drive more people to what you're posting. There's a whole method behind the madness.

A But really, I think, you know, what architects can do better is talk not about like, the award they won, but talk about what makes their project so special in a way that the general public can understand. Talk about their clients. It's not just to say, Hey, we won this award. I'm proud. Like, why? Why did you win the award? Why are you so proud about that specific and just share a little bit more? I think, honestly, people follow, people choose to work with people. What you're really trying to do is put out a rapport of like, this is what it is like to work with me. I really celebrate my clients, I really appreciate the partners and the collaborators, not only in the firm that I work with, but in my consultants, and you know, the community that we engage in. And then, you know, the algorithms will help you find the right people that want want to work with you, too.

A So I think, I don't know, treat LinkedIn, like you're having a conversation with a potential client, not just use it as kind of a billboard to post your accolades or, and even new hires. Some people have gotten really good about saying like, welcome this individual to our team. But what makes that individual so special? You know, it's wonderful that you've your firm has created a nice little template that like showcases the next the latest new hire to your team. But what really stood out to you about that candidate? And what makes you so excited about wanting to work with them in the future? It's the feel good for the candidate. But I also think it just talks about the care that went through the hiring process and your selection of that candidate and why others might wanna come and work for your firm as well.

B I think there's power to that. Right? Like, you see some firms, they're like, oh, it's, I don't know, Latinx heritage munch, and and they just put pictures of people of that heritage up and they go, here they are. I think it's much better to, like, have a story or, you know, what are the projects that they're working on or why are they special people? What do they contribute to the firm, and how do they contribute in a unique way to the firm rather than just, you know, putting that up there? I've also heard that there is a lot more power in posting as an individual rather than posting from the company page. So do you have any advice on maybe a firm owner is listening and they go, oh, great. We're gonna post it on x y z architects. But do you think that it's more powerful that posts about the company's work and projects are coming not only from the company page, which is the standard stuff, but also from the employees? Because I think employees as individuals have much further reach on LinkedIn for the algorithm.

A Yeah. They do. And I think there there's actually somebody who I follow who talks about growing your LinkedIn presence, and she always quotes, like, how much, for instance, Elon Musk has more collective followers than Tesla does or that SpaceX does. Right? Like, him as an individual or she always like Richard Bronson has more followers on his social media channels than Virgin does. So it's, again, it's people following the people rather than people following the companies. By the way, I mean, Slack is a fun company follow anyways because they they have their Slack voice, especially when they're down. I feel like that's when that's when the Slack voice so there's definitely companies just like worth following. But yeah, people follow people.

A And that's true. So what I recommend people do is so the odd thing about reposting on LinkedIn is a repost tends to hurt the reposter and it gives points to the original poster. So what I actually do instead of hurting my own algorithm is if you is literally like go and leave a comment. But if you think about your notifications and how it pops up, it'll say, like, Evelyn commented on this, and then you can go and click on it too. So so in a way, it gets back to people's notifications. Or if you leave on a comment in a long stream where many other people commented. Right? It says, this person also commented on a post that you commented on. So what I have historically done and I need to do more of actually related to practice of architecture and practice disrupted is every time my company posts something, I should comment on there and at mention the people and say, this is such a wonderful I had such a wonderful season close with Caitlin and architecty, and this is what we talked about, and just kinda leave it in the comments.

A But that allows for interactions to happen and for you to begin to build your company page as an individual. But it was something that I struggled with for a long time. Like, do I build practice of architecture at the company, or do I build Evelyn Lee, the individual? And the conundrum there is, you know, the reason why it's not Evelyn Lee consulting is because I would hope that practice of architecture has a much longer livelihood and involves more people than just myself. So I was like, am I, like, if I wanna build a company, why am I building myself? But people follow people. People choose to work with people. So I don't know. People first all the time.

B Yeah. So would you say right now your personal page has more followers than your business page?

A Most definitely. Yes.

B Okay. And it just, like, do you accept friend invites from people that you don't know and kind of grow it that way? Or are you only accepting people that you know?

A So if you turn on creator so first of all, you had to turn on creators on there's a creator setting on LinkedIn that you have to turn on. Then people can follow you without you having to, like, friend them or like them. So I've also set it up where you have to know my email. I mean, it's pretty easy to figure out an email that I use, but you have to at least know my email to select an invitation. And then I've, I've actually only started connecting with people. I've been cleaning out my network, honestly, because I want to be able, I want people who are in my network to say, when they say, Hey, can you put me in touch with so and so? Then I can say, Yes, I can absolutely put you in touch with so and so. This is what we've talked about. This is what we've worked on.

A And I just like, it's for me, it's a more altruistic network than to say like, I don't know, he asked me to be able to like, I know I'm connected with that individual or, you know, she asked me to connect, but like, I haven't ever interacted with that person. Then having access to my network doesn't mean anything to anyone else. So I've been trying to build it more authentically and actually remove people. There was a time where I just like, I was like, I'm gonna get as many followers as I can by connecting to everyone and you know, in the Sal Studley and Newmark network. But there are definitely a lot of people that I had never had a conversation with. Mhmm.

B Yeah. I've definitely heard it both ways where some marketing podcasts that I listen to are saying, you know, just go out there and the more people you can talk to, then you can form those relationships. It really opens it up of just accepting those friend requests or even sending them to people that you want to be connected with, but you don't actually know personally. But I also see that there's value in your network on there as representative of the people that you actually do know and and have connected with in real life. So where you know, wherever people kind of fall on the spectrum, I think that there's there's power in in either of those.

A Do you accept connection requests from everyone?

B I go back and forth because I definitely I get some people which they're I'm like, okay. They're definitely women in architecture, and they probably follow the podcast and wanna see more about, you know, what I'm posting and who I'm uplifting. And really the whole reason I started Architecette was to uplift other people's voices. So I'm like, the more people that can learn about these amazing women that are doing awesome things in AEC, the better. But then I also get, you know, x y z brick company or shingle company. You know? Whoever's reaching, I go, oh gosh. You know? Bob from wherever wants to sell me bricks or shingles and or or especially the visualization folks too of, like, oh, we're we're we're a render company. I'm like, oh, man.

B We have we have our own team in house. I don't do that. So it's it's 5050. I definitely try to use discretion. I'm not accepting everyone, but, you know, it's it's a fine line. I'm not at either extreme of yes or no, totally.

A It is. I'm also up to like 20,000 connections or something, like actual connections. LinkedIn actually does have a limit of how many people you can be connected to. It's rather high, but like, it's so high that I don't ever really want to meet that threshold. So Yeah.

B Yeah. And I've I've definitely turned on creator mode, and it does help to see, like, oh, so and so followed you. And you're like, great. We don't actually know each other, but you have just clicked that follow button, and I've definitely followed people before too. And it's nice to just be to see their content without being like, hi. I am your connection now. So I think that that setting may or may not be changing. I've noticed it's not as I think creator mode, they might be going doing away with it, but it was helpful while while it lasted.

A I think it's still on there. So now they have the LinkedIn badges, and then they have the, like, the various different sub badges. So they're they're keeping the blue badge, but the other badge says that they were developing their sunsetting. It was essentially a whole bunch of AI generated questions that people were responding to. And then every 90 days, they would, like, assign people a new top voice badge in yellow, not the blue. That's sunsetting. I don't think creator mode's going anywhere. LinkedIn is actually pretty proud of their creators, and they have a whole team of creator managers.

B Okay. Well, that's good. Then I must have misheard. But, yeah, I know there was a lot of training of people's responses and profiles into the, like, AI algorithm for LinkedIn, and that's something that folks you can opt into or opt out of. But, I mean, really, anything we post online right now can probably be consumed by some type of AI model to better answer questions or to better advise.

A Yeah. And frankly, I just don't think the questions were that were being asked weren't very meaningful and not enough people were caring about the responses that people were giving. So I think that's ultimately why they're sunsetting. So

B Okay. Well, as we wrap this up, we're hearing a lot about the the doom and the gloom of maybe a potential recession or billing indexes are are lower than they have been in you know, based off all the conversations that you've been having and in your expertise, how do you think that architects can effectively prove that they bring value to a project in a time of economic hardship?

A By being able to talk about a client's needs beyond buildings. I think it's it's interesting to me because a lot of architects wanna be like a like a a go to person for their clients that, you know, like the first maybe not necessarily an advisor, but like the the person that they pick up to talk to the phone about, like, yes, when they need new buildings, but yes, also when we need other things, if we want our clients to talk to us about other things, other things that we can do beyond just a new building, then we need to constantly be having conversations about what those other things could potentially be. Whether it's like an article that's talking about how regulation, like if you if you, work with a multifamily housing developer, like you need to be able to talk about the latest new rules and regulations that are coming down that could be changing access to capital. Or alternatively, you need to be talking about the latest app that fit that's coming out of Fintech, which is enabling more people to gain access to capital that they didn't previously have, which would allow for people who couldn't possibly afford a unit to then actually be able to afford a unit at a various different price and how that changes the developer model. I mean, so we need to be able to have bigger conversations. And I think then we will be guess maybe the advisor is the the way, but like kind of the valued individual, the go to person that people call when they're thinking through new problems that we wanna be able to help them solve.

B And do you think people should offer that for free or they should like, there's a way to, like, charge for this?

A You know, I think, like, we take our clients out to lunch all the time. So I think that's like an opening segment in terms of a way to talk about, like, to have broader conversations. But I also think, you know, at some point, you can say like, in order to do this, like, here's my fee. So it's a little bit of business development and earning the clients trust in a way that they are willing to take a risk and set up a product around that type of fee. But I'm a big proponent of how do we expand both our services and even create potential products that go above and beyond what we typically do from SCDs, CDs to, you know, whatever we can grab on CA. What are things that we could be doing on both ends of that spectrum that either help the client think about what they need to do next, how to leverage their capital in a way that's most meaningful to them even before they think about building a new project. Or on the flip side, how are we helping clients operationalize buildings and run buildings in a may in a way that they weren't meant to be run? I hear architects talk all the time, right, about wanting a post occupancy survey, or they're putting in systems into their buildings that aren't getting used properly because the occupants aren't really taught about how to use them properly. You know, are there different types of services that we can set up that we can say, if we teach you about the systems and the buildings and how occupants and be a part of that change management, we will be saving you, you know, here was our projected energy savings cost.

A So it'll cost a little bit more for us to bring to be brought in and be a part of that change, but you'll you'll still be saving more. You'll actually be hitting numbers closer to our projected energy cost because you'll be using the building in a way that we actually designed it to be used. So you have to be able to have those conversations beyond. And absolutely, you should be charging for any new products and services that you're putting out there.

B Mhmm. Well, it sounds like when people optimize their overhead and they have a little bit more time for thinking, maybe putting together a plan of how else can we serve the client above and beyond and and what services can we offer and then how can we structure business around that to really you know, it's not just every time someone wants to renovate a space or build a new building that they call us, but it's when they have those op like you said, operational problems or want to analyze or gather data that they're thinking, oh, the the architect team can do this. Let me give them a call. And so I think in a time of, like, an economic recession where money might not be as plentiful or building costs you know, building aren't buildings aren't going up as as frequently as they used to, those smaller other services can kind of supplement those bigger projects that may not be there at that time.

A Yeah. And the irony about it is there's big consulting companies like even Deloitte, Mackenzie, and Bain that have gotten into these spaces that are consulting companies in these spaces where we could be applying ourselves to. So the irony of it, and I ran a strategy group at MK Think, and we were we were getting paid hourly more for those type of services than we were for our design services. So the other thing is you can kind of repackage things differently, especially if you're working with clients that have a very specific rate in their head for architects, while now you're doing a non architectural service. So from a consulting side, like, what would what would that cost? And I think you would be surprised to find out how those the service fees might come to together a little bit differently.

B Yeah. Excellent. Well, Evelyn, I wanna say thank you so much for welcoming me on to interview you, And thanks for giving me free range to kinda go through all these questions. I feel like we covered a lot.

A I think so too. So this is the end of season 9. So thank you so much, Caitlin, for helping us close it out. Is there anything that you wanna share with our listeners on here on Practice Disrupted about what's next for you in Architecethat as you head into the new year in 2025?

B Oh my gosh. Yeah. 2025 is gonna be a big year. It's our 3rd year of the podcast. So if people aren't familiar with it, check it out. We interview women all throughout the AEC industry. We're on all social media at architectette, and that is kind of a strange word that a lot of people have a hard time pronouncing, I realized, but it is architect, e t t e. So that's our website.

B That is our social media. If people wanna learn more, it's architect e t t e dot com.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com slash podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h, we'd love to hear from you. So feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.