Architect, And: Clarence Kwan Architect turned Lifestyle Concierge

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Li, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community. Welcome to this week's episode of practice disrupted. What does it look like to follow your passions to a second career in life? And how do you reshape a career build in architecture into something entirely your own? Today, I'm joined by Clarence Kwan, an architect turned solo entrepreneur who recently stepped away from a successful thirty year career in architecture and real estate. Clarence has held leadership roles in both top architecture firms and major tech companies, charting a path that was already unconventional by many standards. But even after all that, he still decided to pivot. Now Clarence is founder of CK curated, a lifestyle concierge service rooted in his love for food, wine, travel, and design.

A Through this work, he is crafting experiences with the same precision and creativity that once went into his architecture and real estate projects. Except now, the projects are deeply personal and designed to spark joy. In this conversation, we reflect on his journey from growing up in Hong Kong and The UK to discovering architecture almost by accident in Seattle to walking away from a thriving tech career to build something entirely new. For those of you that are mid career and thinking about what's next or wondering if it's too late to change directions, Clarence's story offers inspiration, honesty, and a refreshing reminder that reinvention is always possible. Hi, Clarence. Welcome to the show.

B Hi, Evelyn. Glad to be here.

A Yeah. We go way back. I can't remember. Like, I feel like we've known each other at least at least fifteen years now.

B So more than that, three decades.

A Three decades? You think we go back three? I'm not that old. I don't think.

B If I feel old. I am old.

A No. No. No. But anyways, Clarence, I met ages ago on a committee focused on bringing diversity into practice and into the profession. And, you know, Clarence, I have appreciated seeing you change different roles throughout your career. Starting in a very traditional practice, working on large hospital projects, and then going into tech on the real estate side of the business. And then finally stepping into this new role of entrepreneur and not entrepreneur of your own firm necessarily, but entrepreneur of a business that I think honestly have to say that I know a few architects that would be interested in spinning up a business model similar to yours. So thank you for coming onto the show to talk about your inspiration to become an architect and your aspiration with your new business endeavor going forward.

A So we usually launch into each episode with an icebreaker. So is there anything that you are looking forward to in the year ahead?

B Yes. I just launched my business a few months ago, so, you know, I would like to get some traction in 2025. I wrote in my business plan that I do want to have a breakeven point next year. And, you know, I while I remain flexible, I still want to see, you know, it land successfully. I love to travel, so that's something I look forward to, but I do have a aging and ailing dog. So, you know, depending on, you know, how it goes. But the most important thing I look forward to next year is to actually make some new friends and build some new connections because I've been in a bubble sheltered in the design and construction community. And, you know, for a new enterprise like what I do, I I want to break out.

B That's that's what I'm looking forward to next year.

A Okay. Great. And we'll talk about that new enterprise a little bit later in the episode. So you grew up in Hong Kong and The UK. What ultimately sparked your interest in architecture and interior design?

B Well, for Hong Kong and The UK, there were actually no inspiration and no spark Really? About architecture. No. Zero. Not design. So as a person growing up in an Asian household in Hong Kong, you follow a recipe when you're raised. You either go to finance or be one of the professionals, go to university. They don't encourage you to do some discovery of, like, what you're passionate about. If you do anything creative, it really is a means to an end, like playing the piano or, like, you know, draw.

B It's a hobby. It's not even a hobby. It's something that goes on to your application for your university. Then I was sent over to a private school in The UK as a boarding school, pretty prestigious. Things are even more structured because there was actually a goal of getting people to certain universities, and then you kind of have to be streamed to, what university they would be, what kind of program by the age of, like, 16. It's very much like, you know, a pipeline, and architecture never came up, design never came up. But, I mean, it wasn't all I just sort of force feeding. I did get, you know, some soft skills and made some lifelong friends.

B The soft skills are actually great for, like, say, how do you communicate? How do you strategize? How do you deal with bullies? How do you, you know, deal with business interactions and that kind of stuff, which is actually in the classic sort of British sort of private school sense. That's what they are famous for. Right? So architecture never came up, but, you know, this is in the eighties in The UK. That was when the Yuppies came out, and there was the new wave music. The cool kids were wearing black all the time. There was Terence Conrad and all of that stuff. So there was the whole thing about design, and so there was a whole image of being cool to be a designer and to be an architect, but that was an image, and I was a teenager. So that was really The UK and Hong Kong.

B I didn't really have much thought into architecture apart from just a little bit of exposure about architecture being cool.

A If you were to have stayed on the path, what would have been the plan? Is it, like, lawyer, doctor, or business?

B It would have been engineering. It was would have been Cambridge. It would have been something that I didn't enjoy doing, but pretty much one of the few things that I was good at doing because English was not my first language. So, you know, math, sciences were, like, the things that, like, by default, I was good at doing, so they streamed me to that. And by the end of the high school education, I was absolutely miserable. But then there was actually, chance of course correct, and that's me moving to Seattle for the University of Washington.

A So was Seattle kind of always on the intended list? I just say that just because, you know, my parents immigrated here from China. My mom came while she was in college, and there are certain universities in The US. Like, for some reason, as if for instance, UCLA is considered as high as some of the Ivy Leagues. Right? So if she goes to UCLA, there's it carries a certain level of prestige still in in Hong Kong.

B It it wasn't. It was actually a little bit of an accident. Hong Kong in the eighties, there were talks. In fact, they were actually were, negotiated to give Hong Kong to China. And my dad worked for her majesty's government, so we had to go. And so my dad, at the age of 50, moved my his whole family to The US, and they chose Seattle because at that time, it was actually considered a pretty livable city in the eighties. They could have gone to California, but his whole family, including his parents, were in California, so they say no. So Seattle was a backup plan for me because we're moving.

B And I only applied for one American university, which is actually University of Washington. It was in Seattle. And so I got in, and then I didn't know anything about American schools and all that. That was the only one. I got there. And the first week of school, you had to go through adviser counseling, and they asked about major. I was like, engineering. He's like, you don't have to do that if you don't want to.

B I was like, really? You can change stuff? I was like, hallelujah. You know? I mean, this is like a total, you know, sky broke open for me. It was just like I didn't have to do that. So I just named architecture. It was because it was cool. It was it was something that, you know, is still following the same conditioning that you need to be of some sort of professional in order to make sure that your life is somewhat secure. There wasn't any encouragement for you to, like, get a degree in, you know

A English?

B Some liberal arts. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Not in a Asian American household. You know? It wasn't as if my parents would discourage me from doing that. It was just, like, so conditioned into, how I was growing up that things have to have a purpose. They are means to a certain end, and the end means, like, you know, living a decent life, you know, secure, healthy.

A So they were okay with your choice?

B My dad didn't like it that much. He didn't say, you're not gonna make a whole lot of money. However, he's an engineer. He's a structural engineer. But then I started, you know, taking classes. Right? And I was pretty good at the design portion as well as, stuff that I actually really enjoy doing with architectural history and art art history. In fact, I did so many classes. They gave me a second degree out of it.

B So, you know, I took so many. Yeah. It's like so many credits.

A You went from hating school to loving it, sounds like.

B Yeah. That was, you know, sort of the main major was actually architecture, but it was like I took so many of these things that I enjoyed doing that that I got another degree out of it. Haven't thought about it that much, but it becomes useful recently. I can talk about that more. Seattle is interesting because it was actually a regional American city trying to go big. And then with my background having to be raised abroad and, you know, I felt like, you know, wow. I'm a popular kid here and all that. And University of Washington had a program in Rome, very robust program, and, taught by a a professor named Astra Serena.

B I went there as an undergraduate, and that's when I actually truly grew up. Things start to tie together well and, you know, big lessons learned is, like, the city is built in layers and so is life. Life is not all about, like, you know, compartmental life. Like, this is work. This is, you know, your family. This everything is tied together. And one big lesson that I learned was that food and wine, it's like a design process. I think I might have talked about it in one of the diversity, events that you and I sat in.

B I was talking about that. It was just like, you know, food is like the design process in a sense that all the ingredients have inherited properties, and you are going to have to respect that just like, you know, hey. A tomato is a tomato. It's acidic. You know? Concrete is good for compression. You know? So, like, that's something that you have to you cannot change. This is whatever it is. And then you also have a recipe that is handed down by tradition, by the technology, by, you know, what the culture does and all of that.

B It's not that different from building traditions and and the climate and all of that. So there's all the technical requirements. And you as the chef or you as a designer or an architect is actually the person putting all these stuff together, and what comes out, hopefully, would be better than the sum of its parts. And so that's the process. I did go back there during my masters to Rome and did my thesis there, but the key thing that happened in Rome was that I came out of the closet. I mean, I've been gay the whole of my life, but that's in Rome. I truly came out, lived openly and proudly as a gay man. So Rome has a special place in my heart.

B But, you know, until then, it's still kind of a means to an end. It was a craft that I picked to put food on the table to live my life. It's not something that was about passion or calling or inspiration or any of that stuff. And it kind of sort of came back and haunt me lately, but I can tell you more about that later.

A So after school, you were doing the traditional practice thing, working in in big firms. Do you wanna just tell us a little bit about, like, the type of projects that you were immersed in at least when you were in practice?

B Yeah. Yeah. So that's good. Because, like, so I was school with practically no marketable skills. You know? You you go and apply. And, I pretty much stuck with big firms. The first firm that I landed, it was MG two. They did a lot of rollout retail.

B At first, I didn't like it because it wasn't, like, high design and all that stuff, but then, you know, after I worked there for a bit, I actually enjoyed doing it. And, you know, there were few things because I was good at doing, which is project management and, you know, account manager, being an account manager. The firm has, you know, great people working there, great culture, and there was a lot of travel, a lot of business trip. And I was like, oh, wow. You know, for somebody who just, you know, have such a a limited number of years of experience and trusted me and then, you know, have you handle all these things. And that was that was good. I stuck with that firm for ten years and did a lot of not just robot retail, there was also, like, you know, office buildings, and there were some design competition that I was PMing. It was actually kind of fun telling, you know, the principal architects, the designers to, like, do this, do do that, you know, cracking the width.

B So that was good. And then I moved on to NBBJ and was there for another ten years. More PM, CA kind of role. A lot of different project types. Like you said earlier, hospital health care work, that actually brought me down to the Bay Area from Seattle.

A And remember, we met you were working on Kaiser Oakland.

B Right. Right. Exactly. And then also some tech company work. And then there was actually a huge, project in for Google, and I was down there in Mountain View, you know, a whole you know, forty hours a week. And, you know, I was in the trailer. So I got to know these people. So I leveraged the connections I have with Google, and I actually went to Mestun, which did a lot of tech company work.

B And, I also was, you know, sort of anchoring that interior architecture business here in the San San Francisco office. It was a great firm to work for. I would have stayed there if there wasn't any opportunity that popped up to work for a tech company. Actually, I was thriving there. So, you know, in terms of being an architect in these big firms, which, you know, you don't have to do everything yourself, I found my niche that I was good at doing. So it wasn't like a bit of like, oh, yeah. I wasn't passionate about that. It's it's a job, and I was thriving.

B So, you know, you know, if you ask those people who are architects, they don't always love it.

A I mean, I find myself in a position where people are specifically reaching out to me to talk about career transitions. So I'm definitely getting a very specific type of individual that knows that I transition and just want an advice on on how to do that. So what's interesting to me is that you are relatively happy there and thriving, but obviously, an opportunity came up.

B Yes. Exactly. An opportunity came up. So, you know, Meta, which is Facebook at that time, you know, we had some projects. They also reached out to me while I was in McSween to do their technical guidelines, And I said, why not? You know? And I actually went up to leadership of the team. I said, hey. I would like to do that because if you want to be a workplace expert, you need to do everything. And so we did that.

B And then Facebook end up reaching out to me and offer me a position to be a design manager. So it was great. It was like because it was, you know, the tech company back then had a lot of perks and a lot of culture that was fun and all that. It was a social network, so there was a you know, they made a point of, you know, connecting people, including in the office. So it was a really fun environment to work for. And my job, my sort of my territory is the whole of The Americas outside of the Bay Area. So I was on the plane every week, which I love. It was just like I've gone to Argentina so many times, and I've gone to Brazil.

B And then, you know, in The US, like, quite, you know, all sort of different cities. That was great.

A So, obviously, this opportunity came up because Methuen was a contractor of Meta, and then they brought you in house. A lot of people don't realize that a lot of these big tech firms have, an organization within it called ROOSE. So Real Estate and Workplace Services, R E W S. Can you just help explain what ROOSE is? Because it's actually a relatively easy transition for architects to to make into tech if there's an opening in the Rooz group.

B Right. So these, facilities, group, you know, be however they call it, different companies have different names for it. But they are basically like a cost center. They don't generate revenue. They are people who keep the lights on and then, you know, negotiate leases and build out those spaces and then run the spaces. And tech companies, generally, the food as well as the security and all that is also falling into that part of their portfolio. They're not that different from, say, HR or legal. They are essential functions, but they're not revenue generating people.

B And so when we go there as an architect, right, we think that, oh my gosh.

A You have to code. When people come to me and about a transition to tech, they're like, I need to go do the Code Academy. Right? Or I need to, you know, change my out my portfolio for UX design. But in all in all reality, there are opportunities, albeit smaller now with the return to office situation, where there's a need for your direct architecture expertise?

B Absolutely. Like, the people that are in those departments, you know, a lot of them have MBAs, but they also have subject matter expertise. You know? They are good at, space planning. They're good at, like, you know, assigning desk with people of different abilities to different areas. And there are some people who are good at facilities management, and then make sure that, you know, I need that certification for that kind of stuff. But architects, same thing. You know, I was brought in as a design manager because I am an architect, and so that's my area of expertise. Now there are a few things that that are different than traditional practice, and I think one thing that is a a huge shocker to me when I first started working at Facebook when I first got there, the first month or so, I was told don't just dive right in, you know, observe and sit in in meetings.

B No time cut, no billability. Yeah, it was actually the first shocker. It was like, no time sheets, you know, because it was just you you pay by salary. Right? And nobody's watching your card. You just now I have to go, you know, into that a little bit. But then one thing that I it was a huge shocker. It's like when I was looking at the drawings and and look at how things happen, It's like I was looking at them. I was just like, okay.

B If you have a set of drawings and it says blah blah blah by owner, blah blah blah by others, you know, check mechanical, check structural. After a while, I was just like, so what does the architect do? You know? Because, you know, these equipment and these furniture pieces are ordered and delivered and installed and coordinated by somebody. And if the architect is not doing it, someone else is doing that. So the huge shocker for me, it was just like, you know, as architects, we always thought that, hey. We do everything. We don't. We really don't. And then we also lost a lot of market share because we don't do this based on this is not our expertise.

B There's a liability involved in this. This, this, that. Then before you know it, if you're not claiming that piece of the pie, you don't get paid for that stuff. If you don't get paid for that stuff, that's why you don't get paid a whole lot, you know, and it goes down the food chain. Right? The you know, we pay our staff so little, it's because you're not really doing everything. You think you are, but you're not. So that's one shocker. And the second one was actually we're so conditioned to work on projects.

B Projects have a beginning and projects have an end. And, you know, sometimes we have, like, a handful of projects that you juggle, but you stagger the schedule so that, you know, you're not, like, open the flood gate by up more than you can

A But also to whatever extent we can stagger. Right? Because there's definitely times when projects go on hold. Sometimes for

B Right.

A For for year like, I think I've heard a firm talk to me about how a project went on hold for almost ten years.

B And you don't count on that one.

A There's nothing you can do about it.

B Right? Right. Yeah. But the mindset is still projects. And then when you are in these facilities, real estate department, you are really working on a program. And it's very hard for an architect to think program because projects are within the program to get them to the next place, but rather than, you know, project as something that you just deliver and then you move on. There's no beginning. There's no end. And it's very hard to get into that mindset.

B It's it's almost sort of like we have to rewire ourselves to play this whack a mole game all the time, you know, and which is not good for project management because, you know, we're trying to minimize risk and then, you know, and there it is. You know, it can hit you in any directions or some, you know, RTO comes back and you have to reevaluate everything you have done, that kind of stuff.

A RTO being return to office.

B Yeah. So it's it's different. I I would actually say that to a lot of people. If you go into the tech company, you have to, you know, play the game and drink the Kool Aid. Sometimes, pretend that you care. Now in an architecture firm I it's true. Like, in an architecture firm, we the whole team has a common goal, which is the project, which is the baby that you try to raise, and you want the project to be good. In a tech company, you want to make your boss look good and then so that your boss looks good in front of their boss.

B If you have a good boss on your one on one, they might start the meeting and say, how can I help you this week? Because we have one on one meetings every week, which in architecture firm, I've never heard of one on one. One on ones are great because they know what you're doing. A good boss would actually help you deliver what you're doing, and and we remove hurdles for you. Not not so good boss would take your credit, and then report what they have done, which is, like, all what you have done to their own boss in their own one on one. So, you know, there's it's just there's more sort of politics in these tech companies. And and, Evelyn, you talk about, like, sort of the RTO stuff and all that. Well, the huge part, a game changer of what instigated my transition to next thing was because back when before the pandemic and and when there wasn't this inflation problem and high interest rate and all that stuff, tech companies were essentially borrowing money at low cost, and they they could afford to grow like that.

A And the perks were amazing. Right? And you you couldn't attract people fast enough.

B Exactly. And then, you know, in the last couple of years, they were laying off staff. Laying off staff and shrinking headcount means that they don't need real estate. And then it's very hard to be in, the in house real estate department, do anything that is of any substance. Right? You know, just, like, moving people around, adding lockers, garbage, no garbage, that kind of stuff. You know? This is what so it became not so fun anymore. That's really, like, I start to reevaluate where I where my place is.

A And I wanna talk about the politics too because I faced some of that as well. I definitely ended up under managers we nicknamed empire builders. Like, I have more power if I can convince groups to move under me or convince somebody that I need more headcount to get what I need done. Right? And, like, that's literally the game.

B It was a game. Well, now so just for for people to understand. Right? The if you're in an architecture firm, your project is busy, and then you need people you just hire, you know, and have the project absorb the cost of that person. And then when you're running low, you know, this is a, you know, boom, but cycle of architecture firm. Right? You get laid off. In a tech company, because we're not really a profit center, you cannot just hire people liberally. You every year you submit a budget of how many headcount you're gonna have. And then when it's shrinking, people start to fight over these headcount.

B And to get rid of, or rather to get a new headcount, sometimes you have to get rid of somebody. And that's another game that they have to play. It's a little bit of that's the politics. Right? When there's a scarcity, people backstab.

A And some tech companies, if you look at their career ladders, it literally says that in order for you to be a director or a vice president, you have to be in charge of so much headcount. In a way, it's also I need to be in charge of more headcount in order for me to be promoted. It's a horrible incentive for growth.

B Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's one thing to pay attention to. Right? Because you're always gonna be a support services in these big companies. And I think, you know, so it's not the promised land. People were like, how do you get onto the dark side?

A It also really depends on the company because I was so grateful to be at Slack through the pandemic, and we were acquired by Salesforce, but much of the leadership was there for one or two, like, you know, a couple of years after the acquisition. And, and just being at Slack at that moment was a special time. In my head, I'm like, I like working in tech, but at a scale of 3,000 people is like about top, because then it's, it's small enough that you actually know the community of the people in it. You're able to talk to the C suite. They know who you are. You have connections up and down. You have the ability to lift up people below you. And people are making I felt like a lot of the decisions were made out of empathy for where other people were.

A When we get to 90,000, when we joined Salesforce, we're crushing a hundred thousand before the layoffs in 2023 and 2024 resulted in a smaller workforce. You're just a number. Right?

B Yeah. That was that was my experience. You know, when I left, you know, Facebook to go to Amazon, that was a huge scale issue, and the culture is completely different. And then it just got to a certain point. I was just like, okay. You know, is it worth it? Yes. I got pay a few more dollars than I would in an architecture firm, which is a blessing, you know, if you have to kind of Yeah.

A Golden golden handcuffs. I I always say the golden handcuffs were kind of real when it came to making a decision for what's next.

B Yeah. But, you know, you also are not thriving, and they probably don't like you that much and they can smell you. So, you know, it goes both ways too. Right?

A Ruse depending too also in the company that you work for, I I feel is treated like second class citizens. Right? Because you're not you are not core to the product team. Like you said, you are a business expense unless you're on the product side. There's just a different attitude about you.

B You're not bringing me money. You're spending money at the end of the day. And then your client are people that are the user groups that are, you know, getting paid, like, half a million dollars in salary, and they said that, okay. I this desk doesn't work economically. And then you know?

A And and those were the type of things that you are dealing with, essentially.

B The little bits and pieces. So you know what? I mean, the huge part about it is that, you know, I I turned 50 a few years ago or, like, five years ago, and then it was a little bit late. What I realized is that, you know, time is probably the most precious commodity I have. My dad, when he turned 50, he moved his whole family to a different country. And then after he got his US citizenship, he went back to Hong Kong and started his second mountain to climb, his second Korean. He was thriving. He was he was, you know, so happy. It worked until, you know, he couldn't work anymore because he enjoyed it.

B And then that was like, you know, I don't have, you know, any kids to feed and all that stuff. So why don't I apply some sort of a design thinking in it even though I'm not much of a designer? It's like when things are not working out, you either reiterate or you just scrap it and then reconfigure it and start again. And so I kinda look at, like, well, what am I good at doing? And what brings me joy? You know? And I'm much more of a curator than a creator. So I thought, okay. Well, if I like food, I like wine, I like travel, I like bringing people together, why can't I maximize on that? And then in a sense, it's so hard to define what I do because I basically, if I have to give, you know, a thirty second elevator pitch, I'm just like, I'm a project manager for people's life. I'm not a life coach. I'm actually managing your project because life coach means that I have to actually help you. You have to do the work.

B I'm gonna you know, you hire me, I would do the work for you. That kind of stuff. And there are some people I think there's a market for that. Now it's not that easy to get a transition. I have to say, you know, I have to do a lot of unlearning and relearning. That's, like, thirty years of, you know, bad habits and attitude. A huge part is, like, in the architecture profession. There's a lot of, you cannot do that.

B You cannot do this. Oh, this is too too much liability. It's, like, such a huge top down handcuffing, what you can do. I mean, it's ironic that you're in a creative industry, but then you cannot really get that creative because you get sued or you'll fear getting sued. And then so there's a little bit of, like, I had to overcome an imposter syndrome. How am I gonna do that? So I had to take a lot of classes.

A Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what CK curated is and what you're doing now before you talk about why it was helpful to go to all these small business courses?

B So I said that, you know, if I'm good at curating and not creating, and there are people who actually enjoy food, wine, travel, but they just like she's like, okay. The logistics are horrible. You know? They don't like to put it together. And they end up by not going or they sign up on a package tour. Or they want to remodel their house and then they just don't you know, they end up abandoning it or take it down take the can down the road. It's because, you know, they they don't know what kind of stuff they like. I'm the person who can actually help arrange that, organize that, suss out what they like and want. Not that different from what a project manager would do in an architectural office.

B Say, you know, when I was doing my health care projects, like, a lot of user groups were, like, nurses and doctors. I mean, they cannot read plans. So you have to figure out a way to convey to them how your you know, what they need and how your response to their needs are in design. Like, you might have to build a model. You might have to do role playing. You have to do a lot of different things. Same kind of soft skills that I'm using. So that's my business is to be somebody's

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B Plexa, for the lack of better word, to get that live.

A So when you talk about curating, from what I understand, I mean, you're not interested in full service architectural delivery anymore. You're a lifestyle curator, mostly from, like, design of interiors on the the f, part of FF and E, maybe the F and F of the FF And then but you just kinda wanna be in and out, high level touch, but also a curator for very specialized travel experience as well.

B Exactly. So so, I mean, the architecture part I mean, I'm still a registered architect in two states. Right? And, you know, there are a lot of my colleagues, cohorts, you know, people that are listening to the podcast. I mean, they they they love to build somebody's house or cabin in Montana. And then if I have a client who wants to do that and they don't know where to start, I could actually, like, say, hey. So and so

A You'll refer them to an architect.

B Right? Exactly. I don't have to, like, you know, detail the scuppers anymore. But, you know, somebody

A You don't have to do that. You don't have to be really worried about code or building permit well, I mean, code in terms of just accessibility and around furniture,

B but, like owner's wrap. Yeah. You know? If anything, that's really what it is. Right?

A Yeah.

B So that's that's what I do. Now so, you know, when it comes to, like, sort of building up a small business, I have no idea what a business plan looks like. I've never seen one. I've never written one. I mean, we've been trained to just design and all these technical stuff, so you pass your ARE and then, you know, you work and and all of that. And I, you know, did not know how to do a thirty second elevator pitch. You know? I had to reach out to, like, the small business administration, and San Francisco Francisco has some really robust resources to help small businesses. So I took a lot of classes.

B When I turned 50, you know, the first piece of mail that I got was from AARP saying congratulations blah blah blah. Now it turned out that the most useful class that I had taken so far was actually by AARP that was actually teaching people over 50 to turn their cookie making business into a gig because not because they need they want something to do when they are retired. It's because of necessity. You know, sometimes they don't know where their social security will be. They still want to have some money left for two vacations a year, and they want, like, want to leave some money for their grandchildren's college funds and all that kind of stuff. So they they want to have some sort of a gig going on. And so, you know, that kind of stuff, learning new tricks is actually very exciting for me. I'm getting wine training.

B I'm getting trained as a sommelier, and I'm touching up on all my architectural history and stuff like that because I like to tell stories. So suddenly, an accidental degree that I got.

A And all of that world travel you did as your life as an architect too.

B Right. Right. Exactly. So that that's the kind of stuff that I had to learn and unlearn. I'm relying on my soft skills as a PM, you know, as a people person, stuff that I learned when I was in boarding school in England to tie it all together. In a sense, it's a little bit like a second coming out of the closet to live a more authentic life on things that I truly enjoy. I mean, I'm not saying I didn't enjoy architect architecture, but sometimes I was just like, you know, I'm not passionate about it. It's just a job.

B Maybe it's not that uncommon. I don't know. It it's it's a little bit like, you know, I know school teachers who after twenty five years of teaching, say, I think I cannot deal with kids. That's tough.

A Obviously, you're excited and you're following your passion too, and you've kind of talked about how you pursued entrepreneurship through all of these courses. But is it all that it cut up to be?

B No. No. It's a little bit scary. It's a you know, I remember looking back at my first job first out of college. I had no marketable skills. I mean, at school back there, you know, they didn't teach you CAD. You were hand drafting. So, you know, the first thing that people did when they first got out of school is to, like, go to community colleges and take CAD classes.

A I didn't even know. I didn't realize.

B You are much younger than I am. You know, back then, we just, like, had hand drafting on my life, and suddenly you know, I remember the first job interview I had. I had a pretty glossy master thesis bound and all that stuff was about, like, a free market.

A I just wanna be clear. I'm younger than you, but all of all of my portfolios that I submitted to grad school were hand bound. So so we're still working. We're we're still working in that era. Yes.

B Yeah. But but what I was trying to say is, say, I remember back in my first interview, the president of the company of MG two asked me it's just like, hey. So this this stuff, the enrollment is all good, but, well, how is it relevant to the job? And I actually said that my response is, like, let's just show that I can produce high quality work that is from analysis to synthesis and tie it together into a nice package and deliver that to you. I have to channel that kind of start over again mentality to to for this job. And it's interesting that when I made the announcement of my a launch of my business on social media, I got pinged by a lot of architects. They are kind of not happy with where they are in their professional life. And then we had I had a lot of lunches with them, and some of them are in their forties. And I said, if you're already feeling the itch that way, you better learn some new skills.

B You don't want to, like, wait until that you are, like, so depressed and unhappy and deprived that you have to learn this stuff. I mean, like, I was just giving them the heads up that, you know, learn new stuff. I mean, I didn't know how to do a website. I it took me five weeks. I was gonna outsource it. I end up learning and do it myself. It gave me much better control. I mean, that kind of stuff.

B Now, you know, so so never stop getting out of your comfort zone and always grow. I think, you know, the key part is, like, you know, architecture profession can get really stagnant. People get into their comfort zone. And then when you're in your comfort zone, you're not thriving. Sooner or later, you just kinda get, like, bored.

A Well, you're heads down, and you're doing the work over and over again. I mean, Janine and I talked about this and why I don't specifically want to do consulting, because in in a way I've been doing workplace consulting for quite a long while. So that could have been a natural path for me to take after I left Salesforce and Slack. I had connections through our future forum that could have been potentially the path of least resistance, but there's a grind to delivering and I and I felt this even when I was delivering like, K 12 school, like there's, there's a grind to the process that you have to go through over and over and over again, for consulting. And the only way to scale consulting is to come up with a methodology that you will repeat over and over and over again. That's not what I wanna do.

B Well, so the whole thing is, you know, I'm doing a start up thing, which is not that sort of common for architect. I mean, after all, it's, like, one of the oldest professions in the world. And then, you know, and you try to, like, change the way things operate. But, I mean, I did think about consulting, you know, work for you know, on contract and all that stuff. I can always fall back on that. And start up is not always going to be successful, but I don't want to get to a point ten years from now, a lot of could have, should have. I just want to give it a good try. I still have a little bit of money in my bank account for me to, you know, not worry about it for a little while.

B I do have to watch my budget, you know, just like any startups would. You know? I haven't taken any loans out for that. So so, you know, in a sense, it's just like, why not? That's how I look at it. You know? At least I try, and it might make me happier. I mean, thirty years in a career is a pretty long time.

A Yeah. Well, absolutely. Especially these days, because I feel like a lot of people a lot more people talk about building portfolio careers.

B Yeah. Portfolio career is probably the way to go, you know, putting all your eggs in one basket. You know? It it is so weird because when I got out of the tech industry and I actually had to, like, fix my resume, And my old resume was really for an architectural resume, it's really more like a CV. Right? You list all the projects and all the little bits and pieces. Suddenly, gone. All those bullet points are irrelevant. And suddenly, I was just like, oh my god. I could actually have a one page resume because these things have A proper resume? Well, because I don't have a portfolio career.

B I was a one trick pony, you know, which is tough. You know? So that's that's the things that I'm I had been struggling with in the last six months, and, I think I'm still getting more classes and training and all of that stuff, but I hold my head up high. So

A What advice would you give now to those just entering the profession and how they might consider pursuing their career or looking at their career path over time?

B I would say keep the faith. You know? Like, it's not a dead end profession that you have to abandon. You go to school and then, you know, took the ARE and put a lot of work in it. But do don't put all the eggs in one basket. Really learn about the soft skill stuff. Basic things, business plans, and think about you know, don't don't let people tell you that you have to put in all the time and it's a great hair profession and all that stuff. By the time you get great hair coming out of it, you might have a lot of regrets too. So that's what I have to say.

B Just keep your options open.

A Hi, disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community. Our social media handle is practice of arch. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.