Bridging the Gap to Diversify Leadership in the AEC Industry

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. This week, we're revisiting our series on diversity, equity, and exclusion to continue exploring how to support diverse talent that has entered our industry on their career journeys and help them step into positions of leadership. We've invited the team at Leaderflow to join us on the podcast to discuss the mission of their work and the vision that they have for bringing together passionate and accomplished leaders along with talented, diverse professionals within the AEC industry.

B Denise Williams is the executive director of Leaderflow, ex trained as an architectural designer and one of the original cohort participants from the 2021 pilot program. With over 10 years of architecture experience, She developed a strong desire to help developing professionals as they navigate the architecture industry. This passion led her to committing more of her time to justice, diversity, equity, and inclusion related causes and initiatives. After participating in the 1st year pilot leadership development program in Los Angeles, She recognized the immense value in helping others prioritize their personal growth to cultivate a new generation of impactful leaders.

A She's joined by John Gavin, who is the CEO of KPFF. Driven by heightened social unrest in the country, ex he wanted to find an impactful and tangible way to effect meaningful change in the AEC industry. In 2021, John had the idea to introduce the framework of the leadership development program that he started at KPFF's organization to the Southern California chapter of the National Organization of Minority Architects or so CalNoma. John and Janice, welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you here today.

C Thank you so much for having us. We're excited to be here with you both.

D Ex Yes. Thank you.

A So we usually ask our guests to help us start the conversation by introducing themselves. Ex since we went through your bios, why don't you tell us something that's not included in the bio?

C Well, something I wanted to share, which I think is just super special, but also has a lot to do with my own personal journey in my life is that both of my grandmothers are a 101. I'm just super inspired by their longevity in life and everything that they have experienced, and they really keep me motivated to keep going.

B That's amazing.

D I can share that I thought it was a little bit, ironic to be on a podcast called Practice Disrupted, Given that my trajectory in my career is I started as an intern 35 years ago and stayed with the same company. Ex And so I'm sort of the portrait of stability here talking about practice disrupted.

A That's awesome. Well, we need all sides of the spectrum to have conversations on the show. So welcome. We are so interested to hear about what you all have created through leader flow. Ex I don't think a lot of our listeners know of the program that you're working on, so we wanted to get the word out, explain how it started and what it is and and what you all are trying to accomplish.

C Absolutely. John, do you wanna kick us off?

D Sure. I can kick us off. I think the best way to do that is to just tell the story of the beginning of this, when we, as an industry sort of faced all of the challenges of being leaders after the George Floyd murder. Many of the industry leaders were being asked to ex Go out and make statements about positions about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. And I was one of those leaders with that challenge. Ex And at that point, my feeling about it was a statement wasn't really gonna do anything. And, I was only willing to make a statement ex about something if we were gonna do something. And so I got a commitment from my partners that if we were gonna say something, we were gonna do something.

D Ex And I kinda made it my mission for the next few months to figure out what it is that we could potentially do that might make a difference. And we have a really successful leadership development program within our own organization. And I got the idea that if we repurposed that Leadership development program and made it industry wide and offered it to high potential developing professionals of color ex that we might be able to help advance the talent that's in the pipeline now and, help them achieve leadership positions. And ex That was really the idea behind this. Janisse was in our 1st cohort. We got this thing off the ground in Los Angeles

C ex With a a pilot

D program, and it was so incredibly inspiring and successful that we Decided that we would try to scale it, and so we launched Leaderflow and, have been on a journey to build this since. And maybe Janice can continue the story.

C Yes. Absolutely. Our paths crossed with John and I through the pilot program in 2021. And ex A little bit of perspective from the SoCal Noma side. I had been involved with the executive board for 4 years, and in the middle of our Our board the time on our board, we recognized that there was a lot of attention that the organization was getting, more than we had ever gotten before. Unfortunately, even with all of our efforts to ignite The SoCal NoMa presence in the AEC industry, in Los Angeles, there still were a lot of firms that didn't know we existed. And so ex with the town hall that took place following George Floyd's murder that really brought a lot of our industries, all a lot of our firms together to engage in some conversation to better understand what the experience has been like for people of color in this significantly underrepresented industry. And, more specifically from the developing professionals committee within Felco and Elma, who my fellow board member, Matthew was leading at the time.

C There was just a lot of desire to form some mentors, ex Mentorship opportunities and sponsorship opportunities and kind of bridging the gap between industry leadership and mid career professionals. And where could we engage in that outside of just once a month meetings from the organization? Ex And so when John brought this idea to SoCal Nelma to start this leadership development program and add sort of a layer of DEI to it As well as having other professionals, other industry leaders lean in as to facilitate the program That really just ignited this this mission for expanding this opportunity. And so me, personally, it was coming at a very specific time in my life where I was weighing, is architecture something I'm gonna I'm going to continue to do? I'm feeling a little bit lost, Quite honestly, and I'm not really feeling a sense of belonging, and NOMA was an outlet for me to find and build that sense of community, but The challenges and the struggles were real, and so alignment ended up really happening for me when I had the opportunity to go through this program and quite frankly, it was life changing. And so that's where I recognize that, yeah, we have something powerful here, and a lot more people in our industry can benefit from this.

B So a lot of people are always asking, you know, how do I get myself to the next job? So just, you know, hearing about And and I think a lot of people frankly, Janice, I hear a lot of people, even mid career Men and women talk about, like, making that decision of whether or not to stay in architecture or do something more adjacent. What is the conversation you had with yourself ex About leaving an architecture firm and wanting to take this on full time, what was that conversation with John or whoever else you needed to also talk to to say, I wanna come in and be your executive director for this? That's a great director for this.

C That's a great question. So I'll give you a little bit more context in my own personal journey. I did study architecture in undergrad at ex At Howard University, I was not always sort of destined or at least passionate about the industry and the profession. It was ex Really a leap of faith, and I think that's gonna be a common theme that you'll learn about me throughout, these different chapters and phases in my life. So I had been struggling my entire career to figure out what my path was going to be. And Knowing that I did not always have this sort of dream and this fantasy of being this architect or having my own firm, I did recognize that there were probably some adjacent opportunities. I just didn't know what they looked like. I didn't know what they meant.

C And so the most inspiring stories that ex I heard were from people who took other paths and then found their way back to architecture. So I didn't really know what that was gonna look I just got to the point where I was trying all of these different avenues. I was trying different firms. I was trying different project types. I was trying different roles. Now leadership in an organization, and so that ended up sort of what I think opening the door, the window of opportunity to Build up my confidence to explore or at least express my insecurities around, not finding my path and not feeling like My path was really carved out in this industry. And I think once I started to realize that, just open open up more and talk to people about what my Challenges are, I think that's where kind of entering this program at the time that I did then allowed this opportunity to really grow because building my relationship with John at this time was a part of that. Ex I got to share in some vulnerability with him and what I was struggling with and what I was feeling, and I didn't know where it would take me, Frankly, I just knew that I had to start to have some more of these conversations.

C And, I think the more that we get comfortable in opening up in those conversations With anyone that you may cross paths with, it may carve out the opportunities that are really just waiting for you on the other side of your fear and your insecurity. And that's really what happened with John and I. And so when I finished the program, at that point in my career, I had left LA. I moved back to my hometown of Houston, Texas. I quit my job because I was really struggling mentally and, psychologically with where I was at ex And, the program really was starting to help me explore those personal values for myself. And when I finished the ex program John and I reconnected because he already knew based on our conversations and us getting to know each other over that time sort of where my interest lied. And at that point, I think it was just really perfect timing and, alignment in our interest and, yeah, it just helped me Take on this next leap of faith to expand this opportunity to more people of color in our industry, and hopefully, they would engage in that same level of personal impact.

A I like that you're connecting the dots. John's path has been pretty steady as he said in the intro, and your path has been ex I would say it it's been a journey. Let's say it it's had twists and turns. And it's so interesting that you both found ex connection through coming together through this program and talking to one another. So how did that vulnerability piece start to happen? How did you find trust in the process to be able to open up to him about your insecurities.

C John, I think you have to take this because The example and the sort of model that you set in this program from day 1 is what really created that that space and that energy for this.

D I think that, a conversation really can only get started if ex Someone starts by being vulnerable in themselves. And so being a middle aged white male, which is sort of the, you know, ex Kind of the target of people who probably don't understand diversity, equity, and inclusion, and there's a starting point about, I would say, you know, a level of separation between explain a group of people. I think there's for me, it was to come to this group and say, I feel like I have a lot to learn. Ex I've been trying to learn a lot of things on my own. I look forward to learning from all of you. I'm probably gonna make some mistakes. I'm probably gonna say some wrong things, ex And I'm gonna do some wrong things, and I hope you'll give me some grace when I do. But I wanna lean into this, and I wanna understand ex You better.

D I want you to understand me better. Wanna just enter into this conversation. And I was also willing to be vulnerable about, You know, it sounds like a a straight line from intern to CEO. It's far from that. There's been a lot of, ex really, really significant personal challenges in my life. And so rather than tell the rosy story of all the good things that happen in life, ex Usually start with the the rocky road that life is for almost everyone. And I think by being open and honest about those kinds of things, ex you'll hear the real story from other people. And by sharing authentically where you are, and I think a learning and growth mindset, then it's opens things up.

D Ex And I feel pretty fortunate that the cohorts have been really, really open and honest with me too.

B John, what's so refreshing kind of about everything you just said is it takes a certain level of self awareness that I don't often actually see in a lot of other middle aged you were in the conversation, and I put the quotes around, you know, the middle aged white leaders. So what in your leadership I'd be interested in knowing more about your own leadership development path and how you've ex From to develop the self awareness in you and to really actually talk, one, about vulnerability and the fact that we're not gonna get it right the first time is things that you don't actually often hear from leaders in general in the AEC space.

D Ex Janice and I just did a talk in front of a a huge group of people a couple of weeks ago, and we we shared a lot of this story. But I think One of the things is that I'm a lifelong learner. And after the George Floyd murder, I felt like there was so much I needed to learn. So I started to consume as much as I could relative to reading about things, participating in in conversations, ex Gaining knowledge. And in doing so, I think it helps you reflect on the unseen advantages that you have ex When you're a part of a majority group, it's easy to make connections. It's easy to find mentors. It's easy to make friends with people who can become your clients, People who become your partners, all of those comfortable relationships end up being a huge advantage, which is what we talk about when we talk about privilege. Ex Right.

D And, a lot of white men, when they hear the word privilege, their hair stands up on the back of their neck, and they're saying, Daniel, let's we don't wanna talk about this. I think if they understand what it really is, it's just a recognition of natural advantages that some people have over other people And then trying to adjust for that, it becomes a lot more realistic conversation. But to me, I feel like I I got to a place and then I recognized that when I looked around the room in a room full of leadership, it didn't look the same as ex The room that I came from, and it kinda started with the lack of gender diversity at the table, which led to a lot of really good conversations with ex Good friends that I had that were women in the industry and them being authentic and vulnerable with me about their lived experience and how different it was for them ex And then starting to figure out how to adjust my leadership, learn from that, and start to create more inclusive leadership teams. And I think that that learning on the gender front led to, quicker learning on the racial equity front.

A I wanted to know about the program, more details about what you brought to the table when the program started and maybe what surprised you as the 1st year of the program unfolded with the cohort.

D So the program in general is kind of a, I would say, a 3 stage journey. Get to know yourself really well, a self exploration of your your natural strengths, your emotional intelligence, ex Areas of strength and and weakness, understanding how work integrates with the rest of the things that are important in your life, And, starts with that know yourself. The theme of it is to really then lean in and be yourself more, ex Right. As opposed to trying to assimilate to something else. We move from there into really thinking about relationships with other people ex and how those relationship dynamics work, how to improve your conversations, improve your impact in your relationships, And then we turn it towards the practice. And what does that mean relative to project leadership and client development, business development, Understanding the finances of a company and what makes companies run, what leaders really do, and how leaders really impact things. So that's the journey in general. I think what was super compelling about what became Leaderflow after the first ex Pilot is that all of those conversations take a turn when you're talking to a group of folks that have been the only person in the room, the only person on a team, the challenges they're facing in really being able to be their authentic self, ex The challenges they're having in having really, really difficult conversations, the challenges they're facing in integrating into Success in this business.

D It's a different conversation. And so that different conversation creates A big vulnerability and a big learning opportunity. And what we're doing in this program is we're flipping the script. If there's an only in the room, it's me. The entire room is a group of professionals of color who've had these same experiences and start to coach and mentor each other about what they've experienced, And they're realizing that they're very much not alone. So that's really what's unique about sort of the the marriage of a leadership development program ex With the idea of developing a unique group of professionals of color.

C Yeah. Absolutely. I would just add that this ex Sort of personal growth journey, I think, has probably been the biggest sort of takeaway for those who come through our program, and they're recognizing And finding their voice, and they're feeling more confident and more empowered because not only are they being provided Tools to help them know themselves more, but they're actually getting to engage in the practice and exhibited behavior. And so bring in some of our, what we like to call, flow facilitators who are established industry leaders. Ex they are now sitting at the table with our cohorts across a, e, and c. And so by having blended conversations with very similar experiences, lived experiences in the workplace, but also very different experiences because of The architecture firms, what that organizational culture is like versus the engineering firms, versus the construction companies. Ex And everyone is walking away feeling like, okay. Now we've been able to tap into the human component Of work, which is oftentimes what we end up, you know, adding some level of division in how we show up in work versus our personal lives.

C And so it's breaking down that wall, and it's allowing our cohorts to feel more empowered and, more confident in how they show up in this space.

A I really wanna go into more depth on what some of the specific challenges are that you all discuss in this cohort. Are you able to expand on, ex I mean, I know people leave the industry, but specifically, what are some of the major hurdles that people of color face that is unique as you're saying in this conversation that's I think more people need to understand.

C Well, I can start off with something very simple, and this is maybe, I don't know, a year from a year ago, I probably would have never admitted to this. Ex But when we walk in any room in a professional setting, and John and I have talked about this, the first thing On my mind and most people of color's mind is, especially black people, are how many others are in the room, if it all. And so by starting with that, it starts to invite sort of the mindset that is in in the space ex Amongst people of color. Right? Because there is this sense of isolation. There is this sense of I am not gonna be able to connect with anyone because no is gonna know or be able to relate to anything about my lived experience. Comments that are made in the workplace amongst leaders where they think it may be something super trivial, but it's a huge microaggression. You know, what what they've engaged in on the job site. Some of our professionals who have been maybe ex Project managers, project architects, project engineers leading their jobs, their projects, and they are considered or they People think that they're the administrative assistant or they're there to just take notes.

C You know? So what is it like to actually experience some of these things? And then they are realizing, like, oh, I'm not the only one. You've gone through that too, but what was that like? And what did you say or how did you respond To them, when that situation came up, did you voice your your concerns? Did you express yourself? So those are just some of the examples that take place. Ex I'm sure, John, you could probably elaborate on that from your perspective.

D Yeah. One thing I would just add is, I think since ex This diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging has become, more of a focal point. Most firms ex And most people are saying this is a pipeline issue. Right? This is a pipeline issue. We need to find the diverse talent and get this explore. Diverse talent it attracted to our industry. So people are focused on high school programs, middle school programs, recruiting at different kinds of colleges and universities. I think that's all wonderful, but I think the issue is that when you try to attract people to a pipeline ex And then they look at what leadership looks like in the industry that you're trying to funnel them into ex When that leadership doesn't look reflective of them, they kinda question, well, what's going on in your the in the pipe ex If there's no throughput in that pipeline to people like me.

D And so I think this is about really identifying what those kinds of things are ex and figuring out how to break those barriers down. A few of those things that I think exist for for professionals of color, there is implicit bias that is ex in existence, and it's in all of us. It's something that we all need to accept is there's implicit bias and we need to work our way through it. Ex That impacts their trajectory. It's more difficult to make connections because there's, you know, that less ex Familiarity, less people like you in a room or in on a team or on a project. Now that there's a lot of attention towards ex Building diverse teams, there's a lot of tokenism that's happening. So people are added to a team ex So that the team looks diverse, but then they're put in a position that they're not really able to succeed or they're ex Spread so thin amongst many, many projects, kind of as a token piece of a project, that's a difficult situation that they need to overcome. Their cultural differences get misunderstood very, very easily.

D And kinda all of this leads to a lack of access to mentorship and sponsorship. The really, really critical connections that people need to have to really be pulled through the trials and tribulations of ex Growing in a career and ascending the leadership. If you have less access to those kinds of people, it's harder to stay in the game. Ex That's some of the things that we're trying to talk through and and shift for the group of people who chooses to go through leader flow.

C And one more thing to add to that that is not so much external or outward facing for some of the things that have come up Amongst our cohorts, it's related to maybe challenges with public speaking or feeling confident to Stand in the front of a room and share their stories. And so when we're seeing a lot of You know, it's maybe not what you would assume would be an issue with diversity, equity, and inclusion, but there's still such A need to explore what are some of the more interfacing challenges that are not being addressed ex In our industry, because oftentimes, those who are being rewarded and elevated are those who may be more extroverted or may be more expressive or Have the personalities that can shake the hands and play golf and, you know, find their ways in the the leadership groups. So these are often some of the other issues that we are dealing with and trying to make sure we address in some of those conversations throughout our program.

B I think what you are doing through leader flow is necessary, but I also look at the makeup of leaders currently now across the AEC industry, and it requires those leaders to create space for these individuals. Coming from your position, Denise, as an executive director, what's your responsibility? Is there a responsibility to both kind of not only educate the people and the cohorts come through and give them the tools that they need to be self advocates. Is there anything that we could be doing on the other end to ensure that they're also being listened to.

C Yeah. That's a great question, and we've been asked that several times even in us Telling this initial story of what we were trying to or and hoping to accomplish throughout our program. And one of the ways And that we're trying to address that and it it really starts with what we consider to be sort of small incremental ex Building blocks to address a lot of these issues is by inviting industry leaders to be our flow facilitators. And it's a simple ask. It is not a lot of time. We ask for them to maybe spend an an hour or 2 ahead of time to actually prep on the content in the curriculum for the day as well as be ready to open up, share their stories, engage in conversation, and on the tail end of it, just make themselves available to have some of these conversations and be a resource for our graduates after they've completed the program. And what we're finding is with our facilitators, They are having, if not, more of a takeaway from this experience than the cohort graduates themselves Because they are recognizing not only is there a need to do this for the industry, but there's maybe even a greater need and A greater impact at what they're doing in their organizations and how can they be making some changes to take back to their organizations to support The culture that our participants are finding themselves back into after they completed the program. One of the other ways we're trying to do that with our facilitators is through a facilitator orientation and training program that we've been working with and we've partnered with Rooted Consulting Group and Chandra Pope, the CEO, to help us build out some strategies explore inclusive facilitation, how they can lean in as industry leaders to not only teach material or Teach about their journey to leadership or what are some of the things that they are responsible for as leaders.

C But how do we facilitate conversations of meaning And purpose and impact so that they can then start those conversations internally. We know that it's a big problem to solve, ex But we think that by starting with the individual and for them to stay engaged with our program, that that will encourage the the change at the organization's level to support our graduates.

D I wanna build on that too. I feel like there's 2 aspects to what we're doing that are addressing what you ex brought up, Evelyn. One is the experience for the Flocilitators who come into the in into Flocilitate that are not professionals of color. For them, it flips the script. They're walking into a room where they're the only, ex And they're experiencing what that feels like to look around the room and count. And now this time, count how many white people are in the room and recognize that They're very, very much in the vast minority and, feel a little bit uncomfortable. The empathy that comes from that experience is really, really meaningful to understand that. And then the 2nd piece that this does is if you ex Have a leader who experiences a day with 12 unbelievably amazing talented people.

D They start to get excited about what the future can be like if these people end up at the leadership table. When we were in Seattle just a few weeks ago closing the program, One of the facilitators was just saying, I am just so excited for what our industry's leadership is going to be 5 to 10 years from now when people like this are our leaders. So it inspires people to the possibilities by the experience of really leaning in ex with a group of talented and motivated people.

C And I wanted to emphasize that with having ex or inviting everyone to the table to be a part of this Leaderflow experience. I recognize that sometimes, ex You know, non people of color may have fear around how they show up, you know, if they'll be able to relate or if what they say and offer will resonate with the cohorts if what they have to offer is a value to the cohorts. And we take a lot of time to ex and a lot of energy and emphasis to impart on them that this isn't about expecting anything from them in a way that is supposed to solve humanity's issues. This is really about inviting them to the table to be just as vulnerable, if not more, to engage in this conversation, to show up, ex And to be a part of this experience with them, and that was that was my expectation after I went through that 1st session with John, and he set the tone for that experience from his leadership and his facilitation, but that was also what we wanna make sure that everyone feels comfortable enough to Engage in this experience. This is really about having the human connection and sharing in lived experiences and challenges that we all face ex maybe can relate to in life.

A Janice, in prep for this episode, you and I had a really great conversation about the culture in the AEC industry, and I was hoping that you could expand on some of the ex challenges that we're facing in our industry that you hope that this program can also, by extension, positively shape and influence.

C There's so many different layers to this. And I think one thing that we maybe can Just be more open to exploring solutions around or incremental steps to help us address is not only is there, a lack of diversity, racial and ethnic diversity in our industry, ex But I also believe that there's just a lack of diversity in career paths for our industry and specifically architecture because that is my experience and that's my serve you, but, you know, I'd like for us to find ways to support adjacent career paths because what we find is that by Really building opportunities around the adjacent career paths to uplift our industry as a whole. That's where we're gonna make the most progress and substantial progress to keep us moving forward. And I know there may be opportunities in certain ex Conferences where you hear different panel discussions and maybe different topics around other things that you could do with our background and our expertise. I would just like for us to build more partnerships across the industry to explore that and provide opportunities for those ex Who may be considering what that adjacent path could look like. I also think that has a lot to do with why the exit women and maybe people of color are experiencing, because they don't see any alternate paths or adjacent paths for them. So ex so if we could provide more opportunities around that, I think that would be a huge step in the right direction.

A I would say that you're spot on. I think Evelyn and I have both felt that in our journey to be on kind of alternative paths. It's hard to be, you know, figuring it out without a group of mentors around you or anyone who's modeled that career path before. But I wanna come back to leader flow. So you just said that you wrapped up the program in Seattle. So tell us about the growth of the program. We've talked a lot about the launch of the program, but where are you at now and how has the program

C expand it. Sure. So this year was our 1st year expanding the program beyond Los Angeles. So we were in Seattle and Houston ex on consecutive Fridays for all 7 of our sessions, and we just wrapped up the last Houston, or the last ex session for all of 2023 in Houston, last Thursday and Friday, which was really, really rewarding for us. And so, really, the goal and the model for this is to continue to build out and add on these cities as we grow year by year. We are sort of testing out this model for expansion, 1, by reengaging the cohorts year after year to help expand and help sustain each of the sessions each year as we grow. But we're also looking at building out the Leaderflow community through sponsorships, through industry leaders who want to serve as, like, our program champions and connectors to other regional industry leadership And as well as getting them involved to facilitate our sessions in our new cities. So for 2024, we are excited to announce that will be headed to Chicago and New York, and a lot of growth and a lot of planning to do in advance of that.

C Ex But, yes, that's our goal. We're going to keep growing this opportunity and keep providing this as widespread and as nationally as we can As we can, maintain and handle year after year.

D Yep. Let me build on that just a little bit too. The vision for the program is to establish in a city and repeat small group cohorts year after year, building a leader flow community within ex That that region. Have that leader flow community stay connected to each other and connected to the growing group of sponsors Within that group. So, you know, just imagine that there's, like, a chapter for leader flow of a group of people that is Sustaining and building momentum within a city. And then we just keep adding cities that keep building the program. We're we're hoping by Scaling it year by year that will touch more and more people and build momentum in more and more communities ex And more and more support and connection for this group of people as we're moving along.

B So if I'm Somebody who is interested in being one of the new individuals in the expanded cohort or in the current cities where there are cohorts, How do I participate? And alternatively, if I am interested in being on the other side and either helping fund the program or Being a flow facilitator, how how do I participate?

C Currently, in each of our cities, our cohorts are locally based, And so we'd like to make sure that we can build their sense of community within those cities. And we will be putting out, ex The communications for our 2024 dates next month. And, you can certainly Sign up on our website to receive more information and be on our communications for the announcements of those dates. We'll also be posting it to our LinkedIn page As well as we're currently looking for Flocilitators. So anyone who'd be interested in learning more about our Flocilitator sort of model. We're getting ready to launch the next sort of version of our website, which will have a lot more information and some sign up sheets So that you can stay on our communication to receive the information on when and how to get involved.

A Ex and, similarly, if firms are interested in sponsoring or becoming allies of this work, how do you want them to reach out to you or connect with you.

D Yeah. Thank you. We're really fortunate to have over 20 sponsoring firms now, ex Which have helped us expand to 3 cities at this point with the vision to 5 and more. It just getting on the website, You know, www.leaderflow.org is the easy thing to do, but reach out to Janice or to me to have a conversation about an interest in sponsoring. I think that the return on the investment is showing we have about half of the Leaderflow participants Being promoted in within the 1st 2 years. So the amount of results, increased confidence, The growth that they're bringing back to their firms, the increased confidence to lean into the conversations that need to take place to change workplace culture ex are happening, so I think there's a huge return on investment for those who are are leaning in to support the program.

A Ginnyus, you stepped into this role as ED after going through the pilot program, which was obviously very personal to you. Ex I was wondering if you could expand on how taking on that leadership role has continued to help you grow either at a personal level or a professional level or both.

C I felt like this could be a therapy session in itself. It has been a a lot of change for me Personally and professionally, obviously, but I think one of the first things I learned in building up my confidence around the uncertainty in my personal life ex and what I was struggling with at the time helped me to lean on the support that I needed to prepare me for this role. And one thing that I recognized in being able to be on this side of the program was not only am I Coordinating the logistics to make sure that, yeah, every session is happening and every facilitator has the the the materials and every cohort participant has all of the tools that they need, but I'm also standing in front of them, sharing in my experience and my story, and I'm also letting them know Some of my own vulnerabilities around, hey. This is this is new territory for me, and we're trying to figure it out as we grow and grow. And I've been receiving so much praise and so much support, and it has built me up in a way that I could not have imagined for myself. I'm just grateful for, 1, being able to connect with so many people. I am a people person at my core, always have been, always will be, And I've just been so grateful for all of the many connections that I've made and just knowing that I have an abundant of resources and a network To continue to support me on this journey in leadership. And I'm also just building up that confidence within myself to explore some of my own learned lessons and, new skill sets around the material and the curriculum that we're teaching, ex Which is super inspiring because, one, being able to bridge the AEC industry side of things with all of the personal, more soft skills in what we like to call power skills.

C There's so much power in that for our cohorts, and I just recognize my role in being able to, present that to them in a way that it helps me measure my own growth along this journey. And so I've spent a lot of change in in a short amount of time, but a lot to be grateful for.

D And, Janeth, the praise that you've been getting is incredibly well justified because ex I've been fortunate to see this growth personally over the last couple years, and it is amazing ex To see a person who's found their calling and, leans all the way into it, and the leader that you're becoming is, just absolutely ex Inspiring.

C Thank you, John.

A John, I I feel like it would be a missed opportunity if I don't ask you how ex your role in helping to initiate this program and being part of the growth of it. How has that changed your perspective or your leadership at KPFF.

D I feel like I'm probably the biggest benefactor of this program or the beneficiary. I ex I feel like I've grown so much personally from getting to know this amazingly talented group of people and entering into the conversation. I feel way differently equipped relative to helping foster a true ex environment of inclusion and belonging and, really, all of the nuances that go with that and all of the power that There is if we if we get to the place that we truly have diverse leadership teams. So I'm super focused on it. I'm passionate about it, and I feel like I now have the relationships and the tools to be able to actually ex Succeed at it.

A And within the engineering realm of AEC, how do you feel like the potential is for growth in bring in more diverse engineers.

D Engineering, construction, and architecture are all in similar places. They're severely underrepresented at the leadership level from a a racial diversity standpoint and still quite underrepresented from a gender diversity a standpoint. So there is a huge, huge opportunity in engineering, construction, and architecture for women and for people of color. And I believe that leaders in general want to achieve that diversity. They want a diverse leadership team. They want a diverse ex Practice. They're just not quite sure how to get there, and a program like this helps people understand how to get there.

B I think that's a good place to kind of end. We will be sure to drop all the links you mentioned, obviously, but leaderflow.org in the show notes.

A Ex yeah. Thanks guys for doing this. We really appreciate it. I hope it was a positive experience for you both.

C Absolutely. This is cool. We got another budget list item checked.

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