Methods and Mindsets: Navigating Practice Transformation in a Shifting Market

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology, and create more sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. The built environment is changing fast. If you want to be one of the people leading that change rather than responding to it, Join me this summer for Innovation in the Built Environment, a professional intensive from the University of Michigan's Taubman College of Architecture and Urban Planning. Learn more@beradicallybetter.com that's B E R A D I I C A L L Y B E t e r.com. Hello disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted.

A This one is a first. We're recording live at nascc, the Steel Conference here in Atlanta in partnership with aisc. Practice Disrupted has never done a live recording before and I can't think of a better room to start with. Structural engineers, architects, fabricators, all of us in the same space, which is honestly how the best work happens. Anyway, today's conversation is called Methods and Mindsets because I don't think you can talk about how the work is changing without also talking about what it requires of the people doing it. I am joined by two guests who are doing both. Shelby Morris is co managing director of Gensler's Atlanta office, a former AIA Atlanta president, and someone who has led more than $3 billion in transformational work across the Southeast. Emily Schickner is a principal at Harrison Design, the firm's first female principal, past AIA Atlanta President as well and chair of AIA's 2025 Women's Leadership Summit.

A She's also one of the most sought after voices in the profession on mental health, mentorship and equity. We're going to get into AI fees, workforce collaboration, and what it actually takes to lead through change. When you don't have all the answers, let's get into it. Thank you for coming to participate. I know this is a very big stage. It's partly because this is going to be a live recording. It's a first ever live recording for my podcast, Practice Disrupted. And today we're going to be talking about really mindsets and how we are managing through change.

A So as an introduction, I am Evelyn Lee. I am the past AIA National President. I am the founder of Practice of Architecture, and this podcast was actually started during the pandemic and somehow it's been kept going. Many thanks to AISC and the support that they've given over the years. I'm going to let Emily and Shelby introduce themselves.

B Good morning. It's good to see everybody and it's an honor to be here with Evelyn and Emily. You know, two friends that go way, way back. And then I'm Shelby Morris, managing director of Gensler's Atlanta office. You know the hotel kind of next door, Signia, that was one of our projects. And across the street, some of the stuff that's under construction, cosm, Live Nation, new hotel that just got announced yesterday, the Virgin Hotel are some of our other projects here. Really just honored to be here and with all of you kind of talking about the practice and really the changes that are happening within our industry.

C Good morning. I'm Emily Schickner. I'm a principal architect at Harrison Design. We specialize in high end residential, which kind of runs the gamut of single family all the way through a few select multifamily and senior living projects. So if you are from Atlanta or visiting Atlanta, you probably know about quite a few of the historic buildings that are here. Phillips Schutze Homes, and a lot of the very traditional architecture that comes from this southern region. We have worked on a lot of those historic projects. So if you ever get a chance to tour around a lot of the more residential districts, you'll see a lot of our Harrison designed homes as well.

A So the title of this session was actually Methods and Mindsets Navigating Transformation Without Losing what Matters. So we're going to be talking a little bit about what's going on operationally within our firms and how that has changed and transformed leadership over time. We're going to open with the fact that the way we work today is not going to be how we're working tomorrow. And I think a testament to that. Shelby, you and I were just talking was this new critical structures studios that are being spun up everywhere. Do you want to talk a little bit about even new lines of businesses that Gensler is working on that we didn't even see coming three, three, five years ago?

B Sure, yeah. I think this is relative, especially for this group and structural engineers too. It's like you look back kind of COVID or pre Covid and how much the world has changed and what we work on has changed my world. Back then I ran a commercial mixed use studio that primarily focused on new office buildings. You know how many new office buildings are happening in Atlanta? Zero. So during COVID we made a big shift you had to adapt. We started getting to more residential. I mean, new residential buildings are happening.

B None. So it's like, okay, you kind of fast forward today. And that flexibility and change constantly happened. You know, right now, like in our office, primarily, the two major things that are going on are, you know, retail is back. We're working on retail projects really throughout the nation and tons of it, and then critical facilities, data centers, you know, and I honestly can't tell you. And this is just our office. I know so many offices here in Atlanta that are the same, similar. We probably have $10 billion plus under construction of data centers in this market, which is just.

B We had to shift with the market. And a lot of people say, well, we're too late to the game. That game is changing so rapidly. It's not too late. And it's like you have to adapt kind of where the market is, but also that's going to change too in the future. And how do we start to plan for what the future is? Post that.

A Yeah, it's interesting. So the data center conversation is interesting. That obviously leads us to AI. And I know, Emily, you were talking about how a lot of your clients are showing up with AI renderings these days. And what does that mean in terms of how we communicate as architects and really emphasize the value we're delivering on projects?

C Sure. Well, I'm a huge, huge advocate for communication. I work on it constantly at home and I work on it constantly with my relationships at work and with our clients. We do have to evolve with the times, but communication is key. The tools that we use to communicate are essential. And evolving with those tools are also important. Learning the ways in which our clients, our colleagues, our friends need to receive information is just as important. So I've worked really hard to study individuals as, you know, as humans, but also just to understand the way in which we want to receive information.

C I have clients that are big, big questioners, and I need to allow the time for them to receive the information I give them and then process it back in a question form and then respond back again. And whether that's through drawings, because they need that tactile experience, or whether it is through, you know, a three dimensional model, or they're coming to me with a rendering or a photograph. And while it may not make sense, I need to receive that information, digest it, and kind of regurgitate back a way in which they can receive that communication back. So we use these tools. We always have. For thousands and thousands and thousands of years, we as humans have been using Tools to communicate. And I think architects are at a. Architects in the entire AC industry is at a very essential and pivotal part in humanity right now and helping us utilize those tools to a greater advantage for all as well as working through communication pitfalls when new tools come into play.

C I think there can be a lot of issues if we don't understand that communication is the core value of those tools, that there's benefits behind it. But if we're not there to back up that communication explanation to communities and to individuals, then there's a loss there.

A When clients are showing up with these renderings though now and they're expecting maybe us to deliver less because they've already done so much work, how do you communicate that to them?

C With kindness. So it happens a lot right now that is happening a lot. I had a client that wants this incredible courtyard and multi story building around it and there's this mangroves tree growing up in the center of it like that. You're not gonna have the sun or the water source. It's just not gonna work. I know this is not a real image, It's a beautiful image, but I can give you that same evoke, that same emotion and feeling that they were trying to get across. And so what we work at is the core value that we are to communicate there. So another client just the other day came to me with, well, I asked Chat GPT to send me this room in my house and I wanted to look a certain way and send me the images.

C And you really have. You have to respond with kindness and understanding and then say this is what it will actually be like. But here's the alternative. What I think you're trying to communicate to me, you want open and airy feeling. Here's how I would deliver that message to you.

A I think the other interesting thing with the evolution of these tools is the ability for us to collaborate more across these interdisciplinary teams. And buildings will continue to become a lot more complex. Even think about the technology going into the building. Shelby, I'd be love to hear about what does more collective collaboration look like, especially since you guys have you do some things in house, but you're also working outside with consultants.

B Yeah, like, you know, we're an architecture firm first and foremost and you kind of look at like say our careers. I think here we started, we actually started a little bit with the hand drafting period and we saw it change to cad. Right. And we saw it change to bim and that communication was still really, really tough. Then I think kind of one evolution happened that Allowed just kind of simultaneous us to design together with our engineers and with our partners was when it went to BIM360. But that doesn't make up for communication and collaboration. We no longer have to fax each other that information. But we're both in that model, actively seeing what's changing.

B But we still need to pick up the phone, we still need to call or be in the room together making these collaborative decisions. And I think there's tools now that we're seeing that. Just they're tools. You think of, like, coordination through Miro or coordination through different ways of doing that. And it's important for our teams to be good at that, but also not lose what it really means to sit in a room with someone. To me, the best projects of collaborating with all my partners, you know, period is like when you take those periods and you get together and you have a working session, but then you go get lunch together. You know, nothing builds a better project than that trust that you build through just breaking bread together and being a family, being a team. So I think really that's the key with kind of any project in any scale.

A Yeah, I think you mean one of the most interesting things, and I don't think AI at its core will ever kind of replace the value that architects deliver. It is those relationships and the human interpretation of what they want versus what they're showing up with and the ability to communicate and really bring all the disciplines together in a meaningful way and come up with new approaches to buildings that we haven't done before.

C But it may not replace the way we value architects, those tools may not. But I. I do stress to the outside world the value that architects and engineers and people that specialize in study all of the ways in which things not just go together, but interact with each other. There's essential value there. And I think it's very important that while any individual, no matter what their background study was, has the ability to use that tool like SketchUp 25 years ago and today, being able to create a rendering with the click of their finger, you know, the tools are easily, readily available for all. But the understanding, the intellectual property, that cognitive ability that we have been trained on is that essential layer that needs to be stressed, that we understand that value, but making sure that's clear to the rest of society, I guess.

B Yeah. And, Emily, I think that's a great point too, because I think artificial intelligence, you know, one of the key words there is artificial. And it's like, it's only as good as the information that goes in. There's naturally a lack of creativity with that, you know, there, you know, are all buildings and all things gonna eventually look the same because there's no creativity. Maybe. But I mean, that's where we come in as humans to really add that creative aspect to stuff and differentiate.

C You know, I read something recently that was about. And I know you're ready for the next question, but I read something recently that really was really interesting about three little kids. And it was like a lot of people are saying, okay, there's these, you know, TV program programs you can put on a computer screen that may teach your children certain things, certain skill sets, right, like ABCs or some, you know, Einstein groups or whatever it is. But cognitively, what happens in their brain when they see that information received that way versus an actual book where they're flipping the pages? When they see a book, and let's say they see a tiger on a page of a book, it creates a 3D image in their brain and transfers the information into an actual world in their brain. When they see it on a screen, that same tiger doing an audio book for them, right, to calm them all down, and they see it on a screen, it doesn't process into that same three dimensional space in their brain. So I guess I would almost apply that similarly to the way you're saying the artificial intelligence, the word artificial behind it. I think that's that layer that we're trying to bring across that architects are the value behind that.

A You know, there's a lot of interesting things around shifting the value of what we deliver. So many architects deliver. It's hours, right? Fee for hours. And Shelby, I know you just showed us a rendering of something that used to take your team weeks cut down into days. So you want to talk a little bit about that. And then I'm going to compound this question a little bit. What does it mean for us then training the next generation of architects too, when all of these tools require a certain level of expertise to be delivering?

B Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, literally, we had like a project interview on Thursday. We had nothing really kind of produced for it. We started Monday morning from a blank slate, complete master plan with video and everything by Wednesday night that we took into that interview without even working overtime. I mean, it was just like amazing what we can do today with emotional connection and things tied into it. There's a lot of knowledge that goes into that. So it's not just like a new grad producing that or a client producing this. This is A lot of experienced people, but really how we train teams and I think how we continue to train teams in our industry is going to be through mentorship.

B It's going to be through collaboration with those and having kind of those right layers. If we're depending on 30 year people to train new grads to get to that level, I mean, that's a huge gap and it's probably not the best value of our time. But if we have kind of the right tiers of mentorship set up, it kind of naturally encourages that. There's a lot of areas where technology and what we're using it for today for some of these specific renderings and videos and stuff is not going to be what we're using it for tomorrow. It's going to adapt, it's going to change. We're using it, we're adapting and we'll change with it. I think we don't know exactly how that's going to evolve, but we need that mentorship and leadership there to evolve with it.

A Yeah. Emily, did you want to add anything to that?

C Reverse mentorship and leadership too? I mean, students coming out of school are incredible. And they have been of the generation where they're learning in the 360. They're learning in the round where teachers are expected to learn from students and students are expected to learn from teachers. We are no more in the environment like we are here today where there's someone in front of a classroom. And for decades, I mean, ever since education was created, there was the audience in front of the teacher. Right. That shifted over the past couple generations where from their start of education, it was a 360 environment. And I think we expect the same in our profession.

C I hope other professions do as well. But in our offices we expect to be able to learn from the newest employee, just like the newest employee expects to be able to learn from everyone. That may be a position above them.

A I think what's important, like one of the biggest takeaways that I am hearing with structured mentorship and also 360 learning is an understanding of the need to set up structure. How many of you have, and I've said this about a new person coming to the office, we're just going to throw them into the deep end and help they swim, or I've been thrown into the deep end, or I showed up the first day and they're like, oh no, we have a new hire, we need to get her a computer. Like how good does that feel for the new hires walking in? So this idea of Actually having structured employee development, which I feel is something that has consistently lacked, especially within architecture. I can't speak as much to engineering, but I did hear that engineer firms tend to give eight hours a quarter off for people to go and participate in conferences like this and earn credits. I don't hear architecture firms doing that as much.

C And my firm, we do have a policy, and I think it could be the Atlanta market or it could be more the urban market, depending, but so I can't speak for necessarily across the country, but we do have a big policy where we advocate for volunteer and being involved in our community. We are designing in any community. We're designing for the community. So we need to understand the ways in which they wish to live their lives. And we allow the sink or swim side of it. If we have a new employee, we do allow them to spread their wings and see where they would enjoy most participating. And we also are open to wherever someone may want to be involved, whether it's, let's say, a homeless shelter or whether it's through the aia. Right.

C Completely different types of organizations. But we try to keep a good pulse on what people's interests are, whether it's going back to education or something. And then that way what they are volunteering in or participating in is very interesting to them and then they kind of make it their all. So we do give a certain percentage of time allotted for volunteer and we encourage that throughout our community. I think that's kind of a base standard for some of what we see in Atlanta. Wouldn't you agree, Shelby?

B Yeah, that's definitely the same with us too. You know, community involvement and, you know, and learning and continue learning. You know, I think especially our office, we're huge on leadership programs, people being active in them, being active in our organizations. And then also I think probably unusual for us compared to a lot of other big firms, we're back in the office five days a week. And that is purposeful. That is that mentorship and leadership and being very purposeful and intentional about all of that.

A Yeah. And then the other thing I would say as leaders and Emily, you just kind of mentioned understanding how different digital versus analog gets processed is this idea. So I heard a statistic recently and it kind of blew my mind that 25% of the workforce is Gen Z already. And I hear a lot of leaders kind of complaining about what Gen Z does and doesn't do. But at the same time, you know, when we're setting up these training systems, I think we need to acknowledge that they have been digital first the entire time. And, you know, I grew up, I'm a, I'm Gen X, so everything I do tends to be analog first. And if you think about that, what, what that means, I, I had Amanda Schneider on my podcast recently and she talked about. So what that means to us is like, when I wanted to see who was at the playground to go play with friends, I would go to the playground to go see who's there, right? She has a 10 year old and a 12 year old and they're like, mom, can you start texting to see who wants to go to the playground? So that's the digital first versus the analog.

A So when you think about new hires, for instance, rather than waiting till they show up the first day, what does the digital onboarding look like from the moment that you, like, send out the letter saying, congratulations, welcome, here's. Thank you for accepting our offer.

C It's gonna be like an app or something, right, Shelby? You can talk more than that, but it's gonna be some tool. It's like, welcome to the. Welcome to Harrison Design. And it doesn't necessarily come as paperwork and package. It's probably gonna be an app or some new name for it down the road. I'm not sure, right?

A I mean, you can introduce their whole team to them before they even show up in the office.

C Well, we can already do that, right? We can creep on LinkedIn and see everyone. Is that like, without them creeping?

B I'm relatively new to Gensler, so I just went through this and I can say, like, for our firm, it's amazing. Like, it's very, very intentional. What we call a Pathways program for all new hires. So you come in and it's a setup layer of meetings with leadership, meetings with who you're working with, meetings with others in the office to kind of set you up for success. And it's like a slow onboarding that's very intentional, very purposeful to your role that you're coming into. And it's been, it's something very eye opening. I've never seen that before at a firm. So there's that aspect of it.

B And I do want to go back just for a second to what you're talking about, generations that are shifting. You know, we're. Everybody in this room, we're working with five different, you know, four different generations here. And so that transition is shifting from boomers, you know, all the way to Gen Z. I mean, even newer people coming in. It's. It's incredible amount of shift and diversity that is Happening. The boomer generation is very, very quickly retiring, and that's getting passed and shift on.

B And that layer of just, I think ultimately just kind of stress that puts on probably a lot of people in this room is another layer of just stuff that's happening very quickly in our industry.

A So another interesting statistic, and this is a lot less scientific, but there's this generational cliff coming up, right. Where there's less people going in, like, just even applying to enroll in colleges. But what I've been actually hearing from a variety of different deans is that architecture schools have not declined. Like, the enrollment has not declined. It's actually growing because there's an interest in design thinking and learning in a studio environment. But then the flip side for me is how do we keep all of these architects on the architect track? Right. And I think that goes a little bit to the overall mindset shifts that we need to. We're moving now into mindsets, the mindset shifts that we need to start having in practice as leaders.

A How has the leadership model changed over the years? And what does that look like for us to break down some stereotypical mindsets that we've always carried or that we've always faced as younger architects? When it comes to. You need so many but hours in your seat before you can even show up at a project meeting type of thing.

C There's a lot to unpack in everything you just said.

A Yes.

C Sorry, no. Who in this room is an architect or in the architecture field? Just so I can understand a better idea of. Okay. And so we have a good portion also in what I would say the engineering field, Is that correct? Yep. Okay. So most people in this room probably do understand that we lost 70% of our industry during the Great Recession, and only about 40% came back. I was. I graduated my undergraduate degree in 2008, and I'm one of.

C One of one or two that stayed in the field that graduated with my class. And it made sense because there was no. There were no jobs to have at that time. And there were. You know, we all know the history there, and it took a while to make money in that industry. I do think what we're seeing are the reason why colleges are still having a strong influx of students interested in those degrees. And we're very lucky in Atlanta to be sandwiched by such incredible universities and institutions around us, but really bodes well to the workforce we have coming in. Where I'm going with that is it's similar to what we have also seen in our population growth in this region as well.

C We have a deficit in residential. We stopped during the Great Recession. We had an influx of population, a one way train that came into Atlanta and it did not stop and even got more robust during the COVID era. So as we halted residential construction and construction markets in general, we picked it back up as markets started moving again. But they were still, we're still recovering from that Great Recession and have to still accommodate additional population growth. So similarly, I think we're seeing similarly in the education sector that we have a demand, a need in our workforce for the AEC industry and emerging professionals to come into this market because we have a deficit. We have the missing middle. I am part of the missing middle.

C Shelby, you are as well. And it lends itself well for where we are in our marketplace. But there is a huge gap in how companies are looking at maintaining legacy and transitions of companies. And ironically, I also see, you know, throughout a little bit of like private equity coming in and trying to gather up a couple firms. I see part of that too. That's something that's on my mind. My husband's in the financial sector and I'm intrigued, I'm curious about this private equity situation where they would buy up a couple firms or kind of make a business portfolio. And I realize, with respect, that's some of what's going on with the leadership in these industries.

C Speaking to architects and people in engineering companies are running to similar challenges. Right. How do we transition this over to somebody who's 35 years old and you're a baby boomer that's looking to retire and there's a big gap to fill. Maybe it's better to be purchased at that point. So I think there's some interesting things that will happen in our market. And I'm allowed to be as candid as I probably want to be. Right. I don't know that I.

C I think architects should be the ones running their lane as architects. And I think that we want to maintain that control of our market sector in having the say in which we want to design. If ownership starts being transferred over to other industries, that will be interesting. And I think that's something we're curious about. And baby boomers have controlled a major sector of our workforce for many years. We're going to have some transitions in this country for sure. They've been in the control of politics for 40 years. So they've skipped over your generation, essentially, if you look at it in some ways.

B And Emily, I do want to back up for a second too, what you kind of hit on too. I was speaking with one of the leaders, the dean of Kennesaw State University, and their architecture program had a record amount of students. And I think Georgia Tech's the same way this year go into the architecture program. And we're hearing that over and over again. So I think we're doing something right. But there's been a huge shift in architecture schools. Used to be went to a designer architecture school to learn design and it was a very kind of like one path type thing. Our industry is very, very deep with different skills.

B You know, we need project managers, we need designers, we need creative talent, we need technicians. It's a very technical industry still too. And I think, you know, same with engineering. The architecture schools have shifted to show and it's attracted more people. I think that flexibility with skill set is important as we train our students and as we go into the industry.

C Ncarb, our national organization that we attain our licensure through, has made a dramatic shift in the pathway to licensure, which allows for more alignment with where the workforce is going. More diversity, more opportunity, more attainable at an earlier age with less financial. It was essential. And NCARB made a very strong position. When they made the changes that they did, they were drastically different than when we got registered. I mean, goal was being registered by 30 and if you want to start a family too, I mean, it's a long road.

B So five years ago you couldn't find a project manager in architecture and now, you know, there is, they're coming up and same with diversity and stuff within our profession.

A So I want to talk about what it actually takes to attract these individuals. I mean, so I'm coming from California in the Bay Area and we have a lot, we're losing a lot of grads to tech, right? To the big technology firms that can offer the six figure salaries out of the gates and all of the benefits. So Emily, talk about kind of the base standard of care for employees and how you see that shifting and what it means to really remain attractive as an industry to all of these new grads we have coming up.

C Well, I personally love that question, the way you phrase it, because my therapist also had a conversation with me the other day about establishing a base standard of care with my husband and our young children. Because we can set these expectations and if one person's doing it all, it's not really gonna align. Right. And you need to have these kind of base set standards. I'm huge on communication and it comes with trust as well. Right. So trust Takes years to gain. I think initially you can give some it kind of freely already at a baseline standard, but years to gain and a second to lose it.

C Right. And so trust is a huge, huge factor. And I'm very big on communicating that with my team members and goes hand in hand with my clients. I think. I'm not hired necessarily for the fee that we provide. We probably would never be hired based on, on our, on our fee, but based on trust, right. And if I'm going to be in somebody's home, they trust that that integrity stays there. So same thing goes with, with the workforce and the workplace setting.

C And I'm very open in communication from the front end that you tell me what you need and we will always talk about it, you know, we will always be there. And I cannot, I'm not going to make assumptions. I'm not going to. It's not healthy to do that. And I also communicate that my anxiety increases when I feel as though I have to ask a certain question to receive information that's unique to me. But it's important that I communicate that so that my team members know that my anxieties will rise if I'm asking questions because I should have already been given that information or something. So I try to be open about my weaknesses too.

A So one of the best things that I experienced so I worked at Slack Technologies. I was one of those people that left for what was seemingly greener pastures. And the best thing, the best takeaway that I got working in a different sector was actually how open and human leadership was. And that wasn't necessarily the type of leadership that I saw coming up in architecture. So much of what I, you know, of the leaders that we aspired to or the leaders that we followed were big name architects. I think the idea of the star architect is going away. And I think when we talk about trust now, it's really how much like what are your values and are you values aligned? And I think that's also what this next generation of leaders are looking for coming in. So I don't know how many of you have career pages on your website that just show pretty projects that it's completed and doesn't really talk about, like what is, what is it? Like what is a day in the life of your firm like? But I feel like that's what more people are looking for to try to understand.

A If I show up day one, am I going to be stuck doing bathroom details?

C They're definitely asking it in interviews. It's definitely a question.

A Or what am I going to do and how are you going to develop me as an employee? So speaking of that, we talked a little bit about this business gap and the fact that so many leaders hold the business development reins and are the ones that are bringing in the money. What happens when those leaders leave and then how have you started developing the next generation of architects to be those pursuing business development?

B It's really interesting, you know, I think I look at our office and different practices and as you have these kind of shifts of generations, it's a relationship business at the end of the day and really that's how all of us become friends with people and we get trusted with them and then we hire each other and that's how it works. So those relationships need to shift. So we're very intentional about not having one person or one group of people out there in the market meeting and building those relationships, meeting with our clients. The best clients are repeat clients and being continually and getting. I think the best clients are repeat clients where there's depth of relationships within team members. And that's how it really proves to be long term for companies. I think the other thing that's been really kind of eye opening for me as I've really come on to Gensler is that not all practices build business the same way. There's a lot, we're a big company.

B There's internal clients that probably some of our practices get 50 to 60% of their work from. Very little is from external. There's also the external clients that are very different for each of our practices. My world is developers, you know, but that's not the same for our retail group. Who really are the retailers that are sit primarily in New York City per se and other opportunities or the critical facilities group which are totally different would maybe be the Googles or the Amazons. So that business comes from different places and recognizing where that's from and then where you need to build those relationships

C at my firm and I'd have to look this up if this is more like comes from someone else's philosophy out there because I didn't study necessarily psychology in undergrad but we have this term we use a lot which is the minders, the binders, the grinders and the finders. So like we. But what we do is instead, you know, we're architects, we tend to categorize some things but what we do is we look at our staff and we say who fits each one of those roles, who wants to be each role but who is naturally in those individual roles and what we look to find is people that have on a team, we have one of each of those. And some people that usually tend to go up into management have at least two of those qualities. Right. But we understand that there is the same amount of value placed in the finders as there are in the binders. They're the ones that are going to have the client come back and come back and come back. And the finders are the ones that are going to have a new client come in and come in and come in.

C And the grinders are the only reason why both of those still have jobs. So we try to kind of look at our firm that way and we give an equal, we place an equal amount of respect for those different qualities. And we do find that everyone tends to fall into at least one of those categories.

A This episode is brought to you by the University of Michigan's Taubman College of Architecture and Urban Planning. I am teaching their professional intensive course Innovation in the Built Environment and it is designed for practitioners who are ready to think differently about how the built environment gets made. Whether you're an architect, planner, developer, or somewhere in between, this course gives you the frameworks, the language and the cross sector perspective to lead change from wherever you sit. Five weeks of virtual sessions plus an in person intensive in Detroit. Find out more and register@beradicallybetter.com that's B E R A D I C A L L Y B E t t e r.com Another thing that happens in tech and I think that doesn't happen in architecture firms as often. And Shelby, when you talk about building relationships and identifying where people tend to wear their hat is just a breakdown of like what does the exit interview for a client look like and who should be giving that exit interview. So if you have a principal that has been or a group that has been working with that client, maybe have a different principal or a different group, do the exit interview because then that client might be more willing to share a little bit more about what didn't go well in the project with somebody new and that client will then get introduced to a new part of the firm. And then also I think it brings a new perspective.

A So when I talk to a lot of architects about how do we grow our business, what are other products and services that we can be delivering to these clients. If you're in the mix doing the project the whole time, you might not be able to see those opportunities, but bringing in new leadership in to talk to that client, they might be able to identify new opportunities. So use the exit interview as an opportunity for new business development and growing business development.

C I would recommend similarly with like post occupancy reviews, that a lot of commercial projects, especially the people that are our clients and paying for our services and paying for our work, are not actually the end user of the, of the product. And so I find it incredibly essential to interview the end user. If you're designing a gym, it's maybe not even the owner of multiple gym franchises around the country. It is the people using that gym, you know, and really getting a gauge on what quality of the design that we're doing. Just similar to what you're saying about the quality of the service that we are providing.

B Well, I think it's like we get caught up in what here's what our fee is and here's what we're hired to do. But really we've looked over time and I think for architecture engineering, that amount of scope that's shifted from, and risk shifted from architects over to contractors, over to developers, whatever has really affected our fees. So how do we start to recapture some of that? And that's where we're starting to get into some of these conversations. Those are those opportunities to provide new services, bring in new services that they may not know you have and bring some of that back in. Or else they would just go back on the street and bring in a JLL or CBRE or somebody else to do that. But you could do it in house and be right there and you're already trusted with them.

A So thank you for that segue back to trust. So we've kind of talked about developing the later future leaders. I want to talk about the full development and what it means to build trust. And Emily, you talked about these business development sessions or these kind of open Q and A sessions that you have with the younger individuals in your firm. Do you want to share, share a little bit more about that?

C So for the past many years, I've had a foot in emerging professional young architect realm and then a foot also in the door of management at my company. As a part owner and shareholder of the company, it allowed me to be able to communicate and kind of bridge that gap between both emerging professionals and management where it may not have always been there before or it may not have been allowed or welcomed. I'm not saying necessarily to my company, but in general there wasn't always that cross communication. I also find that you have to be comfortable in the room, in the setting to be open to speak. So what I created at my company was a business development session, which I didn't know exactly the direction would go because it was driven by the emerging professionals to try and teach them. The goal was how do I get them to feel comfortable being out and selling what architects do and what we do at Harrison Design, both. Right. And I didn't know exactly where the need was.

C When I got into the room, I said, well, we aren't going to have any other managers in this room. You know, I have not been there for 25 years as a different firm first and then started there. But we have many people that have been there for over 25 years at my company. And so I said, let's kind of get an open air in this room and see what needs to be said for these newer, fresher employees at the company. So there was a little bit of some heart to heart, a little bit of, you know, okay, I'll check this box. I'll take this back up to management. Okay, got it, got it. Good.

C You know, and then I'm looking around the room and I'm saying, how are you guys out there selling. Selling the business, right? This is gonna make you guys invaluable to this company when you get to that level and you're able to do it no matter what role you're falling in. And I think there was a confidence struggle. And I think understandably so, if so often we are behind a technology device. We may not be as comfortable in a room where we don't know anyone or uncomfortable in a room where we know everyone. Right. It depends. And so we spent the next hour going around the room and each individual, and this probably was not an HR protocol situation, but the whole room had a chance to fill the bucket for each individual.

C And the things that were said about each individual in the room were things that individual most likely didn't even know about themselves, that other people saw them that way. They almost saw themselves as opposite. So like one person in the room, everyone's like, you are the person I go to when I don't understand how to put a detail together or I don't understand what to do next. Like, I go to you, and that person was like, I had no idea. You guys looked at me this way. I had no idea. And I said, so next time you are in a room where everyone knows you or no one knows you, you put your hand out and you say, hi, I am so and so. And you feel confident to say something about yourself because you know people in that room will look at you as someone that will help them out.

C You have that backbone. And so we spent a long time going around the room and doing that before we even got to like what your elevator speech is. We'll do that. You know, we keep building on these sessions. But what I realized is the community needs a confidence boost and we need it personalized. We need it individualized. And the way we see ourselves is not at all the way other people see us. There were no negative comments in the room.

C It was only positive, uplifting comments aloud. And it was probably the happiest, most joyous moment, you know, we've had at the company and I think very much needed. You are not around your parents anymore to tell you you're doing good or great or a teacher anymore. You're in a grinding environment, away from family, most often, sometimes isolated, especially in this current society. And we need to tell each other, I think you're great. I think the two of you are fantastic. You guys are both my mentors. Our community would not be the same without you.

C I know you guys probably know that about yourselves, but I'll come up with something you may not know about yourselves, but it's important. It's important. And then they will turn around and share that kind of communication with five or ten other people. And then look at the community we are creating of trust, real conversation that is empowering us to stand on our own two feet and do a damn good job.

A So a yes and to that was the ability to kind of also ask you as a leader. Right. The hard questions that they weren't necessarily willing to ask those leaders of 25 years.

C That's right.

A And providing a platform, too.

C That's right. Exactly right. So I'll take. I took information directly up to our president and our shareholders and said our, our workforce is looking for this information. We have like a blind box people can make comments in and everything. But it wasn't going over. Right. I think in a way they needed the community together to agree and share something together.

C And so there were a few changes that we made to employee handbooks and policies based on that feedback because it was a win, win for everyone. But no one's going to know if it's not communicated right. It goes back to that communication and creating a trusting environment.

B Yeah, Emily, I think that's a great, great point too, because it comes back to like coaching training, mentorship stuff. You know, we. We come out as graduates as we're technical, very technical people. And to go into a world where you're not as technical and what gets you to that next step that Stuff you have to, you know, see, happen, be trained and be purposeful and intentional. So I commend you guys for like doing that and being so intentional about it.

C We just, we need, we need more of it because we're getting more of the other side right now. I think it's my, you know, my opinion is our community used to be, used to be able to run out the door and you play with your neighbors and your community that surrounded you was within tangible reach of what your parents could keep their eyes on. And that was who was influencing you, was within that knowledge base right, right around your neighborhood, community and school. And nowadays children at a very young age are influenced by people all around the world. And there's positives that come with that. This is not even a positive or negative. It's just an awareness that my, I have a four year old and twin boys that are two years old and I can control the minute they came out of me. I said I have way less control over them every day they get older than I do now.

C But also does the community that is influencing them and our communities now reach across the globe and, and information is coming at us so fast and not accurate. And how do we censor and control what is accurate? It's by teaching them what's in their core and that they always can turn back to that and say, these are my core values. I say to my kids all the time, our family core values do not change. Even if you're playing over at someone else's house. Their rules may be different, but our core values and our family values stay the exact same. And we talk about we are an inclusive family, we create an inclusive environment. And my 2 year olds can say that. So that's what we do.

A I want to talk a little bit about this area of change that we're operating in because, you know, we have access to a lot more information than we ever did. I feel like, you know, Shelby, we want more access to more information than we ever did. Generation Z is asking what am I being billed out for and where are the projects. But I think also too much information can become overwhelming with all the shifts that are happening. So how do you manage that for the next generation?

B Yeah, it's a great question. We were kind of talking earlier of just there's a big thing and I think this is great of pay transparency and it's really created more equality amongst the diversity in our offices. And it's a range and generally where I've seen it, it is a range. Like for instance, we Know how much everybody's bill rate is. Everybody in the office does. We know how our projects are performing, we know how the office is performing. Anybody can see all that information. And I think it's as much as you're willing to take on, but I also just tell our teams as much as you can control too.

B So like if you're on an individual project and you can see how it's performing and say it starts to go down a rocky road, bring that up to leadership and let's all hug a huddle together and be partners and try to find solutions together. It's not anything that any of us should bear. If it's something that you can't control, like market shifts and you can't control what's going on over here and you know that you're going to have to go do other things over here. Those are things you just can't control. It's not stuff to lose sleep over. It's stuff we're purposely diversified to cover. So I think within talking with them of just stay within what you can control and those boundaries is really important.

C Purposely diversified. I think that's a really good term.

A I want to talk a little bit about what is the profession that we build from here. So you Shelby mentioned that 30 to 40% of architects in some markets now are doing data centers or critical facilities. And those didn't exist too long ago. So if you had not built out flexibility along specialization because there's this pull and contrast between we need to be deep experts, we need to be flexible in a changing marketplace. How do you build both at the same time?

B Yeah, it's a really interesting question because you think when we go to RFPs or submit on a project, they want to see how many of this type of project have you done? The reality of, I think all of it is if you're good at your craft and what you do, you can almost take on anything. And you know, we're really looking for those leaders and technicians and people that could be trained to be adaptable. You want to build that resume and build that flexibility, but also have that balance to flex when it changes. I kind of mentioned how commercial office has changed. You know, we're getting into more, you know, data centers and critical facilities now because you almost have to, you know, there's such a big market out there with it. That's going to change. Tomorrow we'll be back in our cities doing place making and, and residential and offices again. Residential is gonna be a booming, booming market.

B And so for people to Build in that flexibility within the office and be able to adapt and change and work with their leaders and be leaders with their teams. That's really what we're looking for. We're not looking for you're the best at X. Cause then you're kind of in a pigeonholed thing where if and when that changes, you're now how are you gonna adapt with that change and stay with the company?

C I agree with. We do the same, you know, at our company. Well, if you look at our company's portfolio and website, we may flash a lot of single family, you know, residential interiors and architecture images. But the reality is behind the scenes. I mean, all my emails this morning went out about a medical device warehouse that I'm working on because the client, we did their home, there's trust there. And he loves his employees and he wants his employees to feel like they are working outside in an airy environment when they are actually spending three days sewing an incredible device that's gonna save lives. And so like we are able to absolutely handle that because we have talent that, you know, our talent pool is an incredible talent pool. We doesn't mean my firm like we have in our profession an incredible talent pool.

C And it's only getting better. The technology and the tools and the ways universities are investing in those spaces are also really incredible. But I always promote adaptability at a young age and flexibility from management. That's my request from management all the time. And my request from younger employees is adaptability. And then I think that makes a very good marriage.

A So what I'm hearing and what I want, I would love to see a lot more architecture and engineering firms going forward is kind of this co creation of values and culture and operations within a firm. So less top down, but it's an understanding of what are all the skill sets, what is everyone bringing to the table and how can we continue to flex. And I think that's a big mindset shift that we're going to have to really manage within the industry to keep ensure that we can remain agile. Right. Because so much of it, at least when I was coming in, it was about gatekeeping and holding back and making sure I hit certain marks, which doesn't necessarily lead to the flexibility, Shelby, that

B y' all are talking about hiring a lot right now. And we have kind of a saying in our group of are you a culture ad not, are you a culture fit? And I think there's a value to that. We're not looking for the same people that are in our office. We're looking for people that can add to our office and contribute differently and bring something different and that's how you stay diversified as a firm and as a practice.

C Yeah, I mean I think it was Harvard, that professor at Harvard or someone that said something recently and it ended up on my kids preschool newsletter was, you know, we can teach the brightest minds in the, in the world, but we can't teach them how to play well with others. You know, not saying that's just that's not the role that you're going to learn at a university or a college institution or even in the workplace setting. You learn that, you know, in your foundational years. And it's essential that we represent how to play well with others so that our future generations will see that representation on how to play well with others.

A So I want to close with kind of three questions. Something for emerging professionals to think about, something for mid career individuals to think about and something for leadership to think about. So for the emerging professionals both in the audience and those listening, what is one thing that they can do right now to make themselves indispensable within their firm?

C Adaptability and communication. Can you communicate well with others? Can you play well with others?

B Yeah. And I think, you know, I think as emerging professionals say yes, people are going to come up to you and give you opportunities. You're going to say that's not really what I want to do. Say yes. And I think of back in my career when I've done that, I would not be in my position, I am in my career if I didn't say yes to opportunities that I didn't necessarily want to do. Shelby, we want you to be the project manager on this project. I'm like, no, I'm a designer, why would I do that? But I said yes. And then you learned the business in a way that kind of taught me a different way, led me down a different path.

B I never expected, but had I not said yes, I wouldn't be here.

C I also have one that's super easy to take away. Read every email all the way through, not just the portion that's addressed to you. I found out that if you do that, you will understand all the communication thread and you will be showing up the freshest, newest one in the room and you'll be able to remind your boss of something that was said three weeks prior by someone else. Correspondence between them and you just happen to get copy the lid.

A There's a reason why there's. You've been cc'd on everything.

C I mean, yeah, I'M big on making sure everyone's cc'd on it. But my expectation, and I do say that to a lot of emerging professionals, is read to everyone. Read everything all the way through, not just the one line for you. It gives you that whole rounded perspective and memory retention so you can show up to room and help. That's like an easy, don't change your personality, just read it. You're good. Yeah.

A Okay, so here's the one that's a little bit more difficult maybe for mid career individuals. What is a belief about how practice works that you had to unlearn as you moved into leadership?

B What makes you great at what you're doing today will not be what you're doing tomorrow or make you great tomorrow. You know, that adaptability and that change and there's times where it's like, man, I'm leading this client. This project's going incredible. Like we're hitting everything out of the park and then a year later you're doing something totally different. Really your career kind of reinvents itself. I found whether it's every truly every five years, but it's probably on average kind of every five years you're reinventing what you're working on and what you're doing. And you know, I think looking back on that, that's constant as just we continue to always evolve through our career.

C I feel like I have changed a lot in my career and then I also feel like the core of me has not changed at all. Like becoming a mother was a huge, dramatic change, you know, in my life and even the pathway to that and at the same time it opened all these doors but it was, I was still that same person before then. What I did learn about myself being in kind of a long term relationship, you know, with my husband, is that some. Is anyone familiar with the love languages? Few of you. If you're not. Yeah. Is he not? So if you're not, maybe look into them. And it is kind of fascinating how those things, our love language that is really true to our core may not be the way we are communicating outwardly.

C Our like love and intention for others. Because that could be what we learned and we were trained to do from our parents. And understanding that distinction about myself allowed me to have a lot more self respect for why I choose to do the things I do and where I put my, my efforts and then also understanding that others love languages are very different than mine allows me to be a better team member. So my love language is quality time and I did not know that at all when I was 22 years old, or even when I was 30 years old. It wasn't until very challenging years in my marriage with three kids, two and under, that I really had to dive deep and say, this is my love language. And I don't understand your love if I'm not receiving it that way. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though. It just means I don't receive it that same way.

C And I think wrapping that a little bit into where I am in my professional environment and saying, I give quality time. Like I told you this morning, we were five minutes late picking him up because my amazing nanny needed a minute with me, and she was having a. Having me. I said, I have time for you. This is what you need. Right? And I think that evolution of really understanding how we love ourselves and how we share love with others, how we receive love and how someone else might give love, gives a lot of respect to community and relationships and I think becomes a much more profound lifestyle. And I think you guys are really good at that, too, understanding yourselves.

A Yeah, I'm still learning a lot. Yeah, I'm always learning. Always learning. Yeah.

C Always learning, always evolving.

A Last question. What do you wish someone had told you about the business of architecture that you had to figure out the hard

C way that there's a business side to it? Just kidding. Don't repeat that. Anyone. I'm on the business side of my company. Don't tell them that.

B All right, I'll jump in. You know, I think when you get into this business, you think, okay, I'm going to design cool buildings, I'm going to create cool places for people. Do that. And as it evolves, really everything comes down to people. It is a people business. It's a people thing. You're doing things for people. You know, everything you do, you get into the business being a technician and doing design work and technical stuff and technical drawings.

B And really, at the end of the day, you're doing a lot of HR stuff, you're dealing with people, doing a lot of financial stuff, business stuff. Everything I do is in the perspective of people, and you don't really get taught that. I think that's actually still amiss in our industries is the people aspect of what we do. We need to really have down and dive into that even deeper. I think. I think it's something that's missing, but it's a people thing.

C I completely agree. I think when you're in school, you don't even have a client at first, right? And then all of a sudden, like, oh, you're gonna have a client now and it's a real human that's coming in and they're gonna be listening to your presentation at the end of the semester by like junior and senior year. So it's your self designing in a way. You know, you're designing for yourself and then there's a client there. And then that evolves as you get into the business side of it, where it becomes more and more and more. You don't have the say. We have a lot of say, but we don't, you know, that that part is gone. And it's more about absolute design for others.

C We, as, as architects and designers have the ability to change lives in our physical environment that we are creating. We can create happier lifestyles, Longevity in lifestyles, social connections and interactions dealing with the subconscious and how we create spaces that will encourage people to kind of sit there and congregate there without them even realizing they are. We have the ability to create awkward, very awkward spaces too, and make people feel uncomfortable and then release into a large open environment. And I think that integrity and that understanding, you know, is very much at my core. And it's very important. But that wasn't why I started architecture, why I really got into it. But I was always very curious about the human psyche and how we influence it.

A We are a whole bunch of architects attending a structural conference. Where could we be building better bridges between the two and how we work together?

B That's a great question, Evelyn, because I think Art Gensler, I could just read his book. What he would do is he'd spend, you know, 50% of his night reading stuff about architecture, but the other 50% reading something else. I think it's so important for our industries and for us, for us as architects and for engineers to read more about architecture, read more about engineering, read more about politics, read more about anything. You know, to have those conversations with the community and be interactive with our community and make that pointed, make that intentional and spend that time doing it. Because that knowledge, you know, you can't always just study the exact same thing and being interactive on the exact same thing that opens up conversations they'll lead that you never know where they'll lead. You know, who doesn't want to make their business better? Who doesn't want to make more money investing those type of things. Let's learn about it.

C Yeah, absolutely. I like to think that all the engineers I work with like me because I will come to them with very green questions. And I have no problem, you know, asking them, just like I may turn around and come to them with some high intellectual thing and who knows where that goes. But I think the true genuine respect that we can have for each other, you know, we're in this together. The AEC industry grows and booms and swings together as a family, and we're all on this big ship and boat together, right? I'm sure everyone watched Artemis take off and they watched the beautiful astronauts speak afterwards about how we're all this crew on Earth together, right? And if we look at our industry together, the way we speak about each other, the way we talk with and to each other, the way we run projects together, I feel should be absolute family delivery and presentation.

B We're partners.

C We are. And we, we, I think we do. I, I feel wonderful camaraderie with, with the engineers that I work with, and I hope they feel the same. But there is no door or wall between us. I don't have any engineers in my company. I've never have. I've always. It's always been a hire or they hire us, depending on what the project is.

C But so while we're in different offices, it doesn't matter. There shouldn't ever be a threshold between us. A lot of times now we are even more transparent where if we're submitting a fee proposal, you know, lots of times because our fees are wanting to be cut so much, I am fully transparent. Say, here's our fee. Here's the MEP engineer's fee. Here's structural engineer's fee. We're not sitting here saying, here's one lump sum. You can look at them individually if you need to.

C But we're all a team and it's the family culture and environment that should spread across our entire AEC industry because we absolutely are all in this together and we all must support each other to continue being the profession that needs to be respected in the way that it needs to be.

A This summer, join me for Innovation in the Built Environment, a professional intensive from the University of Michigan's Taubman College of Architecture and Urban Planning, built for practitioners who are ready to move from thinking about transformation to actually leading it. Learn more@beradicallybetter.com that's B E R A D I C A L L Y B E T T E R. Hi disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practice of ARCH. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

A Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.