Out In Architecture Volume I: Gestures of Love

A When I was practicing, finding a detail meant digging through old models. That's why I'm glad to have Puros sponsoring this episode. They make every detail, family and standard searchable across your firm and ensure that nothing gets used blindly. See it@pyrdos.com that's P I R R O S.com. Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast exploring how architects can build better businesses, embrace emerging technology and more sustainable, fulfilling practices. I'm your host Evelyn Lee, architect, angel investor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're running a firm, starting your career, or reimagining what's possible, this podcast challenges you to think differently about the future of architecture. Hello disruptors.

A Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. This one is a little different. Sara Woinich is moderating and I'm stepping back to listen. It's the first of two episodes celebrating out in Architecture Volume 2, which releases June 1, the start of Pride Month. Today, Sarah is in conversation with the team behind Volume 1. Next week we'll spend time with the editors of Volume 2. The publication arrives at a moment that asks more of people who chose to be visible than it did the last time this group came together. You'll hear that thread come through why books like this one get banned in the first place, what it means to pay it forward and pay it back at the same time, and the simple fact that no one else can tell the story you can tell, so I'm going to listen.

A This is their conversation and it deserves room to breathe.

B My name is Andrew Grant, Houston. I'm originally from Texas based in Seattle, and I am the founder and head of Design of House Cosmopolitan, an architecture practice focused on creating places where people belong. I use he him pronouns and I am a bisexual. Read Queer Architect I was contributor in Volume one About in Architecture, where I told the story of how I came to start my own architecture practice and how being out and unapologetically myself turned into success, both personally as well as professionally. I'm an editor for Volume two of out in Architecture, where I continue the work by supporting 22 new contributors through the process of telling their own stories. Paying it forward in this way is really important to me, particularly in light of the worldwide trends towards fascism and the clawing back of hard earned rights for our community. I also love that we pushed to be more inclusive and international in this volume with the number of different authors from up and down the Americas. I'm really excited to be a part of this process and continuing this trend of being visible and expressing Ourselves in a way that is uniquely ours.

B And look forward to this conversation.

C I have really enjoyed being part of out in Architecture, especially as a co editor for volume two. With volume one, I was asked to participate right at the end. So I didn't really have the opportunity to experience the whole process of contributing. But even from that small involvement, it was really clear how important out in Architecture is going to be in helping to advance queer voices in architecture. I talked about this in my story in volume one. But when I came out as a trans woman, I was really unsure if there was going to be a place for me as an out trans woman in architecture. But as I've been able to exist as myself and being visible and in the community, that visibility has become really, really important to me, really for the next generation. Not because I want to be a role model or anything like that, but because I want to be findable.

C I want somebody who is in my position looking to see if there is a place for someone like them in architecture to be able to look around and realize that they're not alone. So that sense of community and of not being alone has been one of the most meaningful parts of being involved in Alton Architecture for me. With volume two, I've had a chance to be part of the entire process and it's been really completely different, but also really amazing. It's been a learning experience, but really fulfilling. The co editors really created a space that felt open and supportive for me and and for all the contributors who were willing to share their stories. And that in and of itself isn't a small thing. And I don't think it's something that any of us co editors took for granted. People, they're offering something really personal, very vulnerable moments from their lives and getting to witness that and be a part of it and to help help them craft those stories has been really impactful.

C I think what stayed with me for the most is kind of that connection desire, that desire to be part of the community and to see how out in Architecture is helping to foster that. The response that I've heard from people from queer and gender diverse architects has been really great. From volume one they can see themselves in those stories. And I think it gives everyone hope. And I hope that volume two is going to be received in the same way with that sense of hope. Even though we're definitely in a different moment now, one that definitely feels more challenging, we can't lose sight of that hope and the joy that comes with living authentically. I think that's really what this Whole project is about, for me, is helping create that space for people to really be themselves and to share that with others. And just being a part of that has been really important to me.

D What I appreciate about the opportunity to contribute to out in Architecture and now two different ways, one as a contributor and one as a co editor, is this kind of intimate invitation into people's stories. I think while we all certainly acknowledge that we have these beautiful, expansive, layered stories to tell, we don't often ask each other for those stories, and we don't often hear them or we don't slow down long enough to feel them. And, you know, taking the time to contribute to the first volume really gave me the space and the curiosity to see what other folks were contributing. And so I think I read through volume one perhaps differently than I would have if I had not been a contributor. And then for volume two, having this opportunity to help identify who would be a contributor and ensuring that multiple diverse perspectives were represented, which, of course, was done in the first volume, but continuing in that way felt important to me. And then having the chance to talk with folks and I wouldn't say guide them, but encourage them through their thought processes about what they would contribute and what they felt like would really matter to a wider and broader audience, was very rewarding for me. And so I think mostly my gratitude for this process from both perspectives, again, has been this opportunity to be more intimately involved and engaged with professionals and practitioners in ways that I probably otherwise would not have been. I think second to all of this is it's been an opportunity to interrogate more deeply how much our identities can and should contribute to the work that we do as designers, as professionals, in these roles that we serve.

D And realizing, or not even realizing, but like, deeply understanding how that is both, like in a professional practitioner capacity, in an educational capacity, in a volunteer capacity, you know, all these different ways in which we show up in the world is an opportunity for us to also bring our identities and intersectionality into the room when it feels safe and appropriate to do so, of course. And so there is this caution that we have to proceed with. But, yeah, that's been my perspective and experience.

E Hello, everyone. It's been a while since we have joined you, but I'm immensely excited to be here today with three incredible people and architects. We were last together on episode 117 in 2023, highlighting and speaking to what an equitable and inclusive future for LGBTQIA people would look like at that time. Out in architecture, volume one was still in draft format over 20 co contributors had come together from across the United States in this idea of sharing our stories. Out in Architecture would not be released until later that year, in October of 2023, at the NOMA conference. We are here today, less than three years later, just a few short weeks away from the publishing of out in Architecture Volume 2. This has been an amazing effort with Al, Hugh and Beau Frail sharing and navigating the lessons learned from the first publication, while Jadi Ahmadzi, Julia Oderda and Andrew Grant Houston moved from co authors in volume one to co editors in volume two. We are joined today by all three of them, Jadee, Julia and Ace, as well as Beau.

E And I cannot wait to both hear and share their experiences and this space with you. So to kick things off. Hello everyone. This is absolutely amazing and I cannot contain my excitement and I just kind of want to start just to ask, without an Architecture just a few weeks away from publishing, how is everybody feeling?

B I will say for myself, I am both excited and also a little tired. It has been an ordeal to get here, but well worth it.

D I find that to be such a complicated question. Every time somebody asks me, how are you feeling? I'm like, in this moment, for this project, in this burning world we're in, I don't know. But for this project here, for this moment in time, I'm feeling very grateful that there is even space and time and energy and resources to tell our stories, to want to tell our stories, and to feel brave enough. That doesn't mean that it's without fear, but to feel brave enough to say, I want to contribute to the archives. I want to contribute to the memory of what is, what was and what will be. So I am feeling grateful, very eloquent.

C I will say, I think, Ace, you deserve to feel tired because you've done an immense amount of work for this and it really does show and looks incredible.

B I appreciate it. It definitely was a group effort though. I will do my own hoard and let Sarah know that I ended up being the copy editor for the end. And now that the book is currently in print for draft and we should get that any day now, I am grateful to be at this point.

E I remember that in volume one, when the first proof arrived, just like I literally cut every single page out of the book so I could individually read it and took my red pen to it. And at the time, my neighbor's dog Ellie would come over and just sit on the porch with me while I was just reading pages on pages. So I have so much appreciation for the amount of effort that it takes to get here, and both the gratitude and the recognition that this is nothing small and also, like, rest is always well deserved. But this in particular, I am excited for you, for this moment of rest that's coming. So I think gonna jump in and really just kind of want to really understand for y' all kind of how has it been kind of in this transition? I know, Julia, in your kind of short recording, you had mentioned that this was a different experience than your first one as a co author. So I'm really curious, just, you know, maybe Julia, to start, and then anybody that would like to chime in, what has being a part of volume two as an editor been like, and how has it been different or evolved from your experience in volume one?

C I had mentioned I came in really, really late into the process last time, and so, you know, I didn't really get to see a lot of the work that went into it. So I kind of came in with, you know, not really understanding what was going to go on, how much work it was, how the process was, and so being part of it was, you know, part of this process. Revoluting 2 was very eye opening, and it was very humbling to be part of that process from the beginning. From being able to look at the people who put forward their ideas for stories, kind of going through those, figuring out who would make sense and what we think that they could contribute, and then talking with all of them, helping to craft them, that was a really emotional and important feeling because these are very personal stories to these individuals. And so to be able to be let into that process was so wonderful. And to feel like, you know, have a little bit of a hand in helping them get that out was really a nice experience. And so that's very different than the first time, because I came in and what I took away from that first one, because I was a little bit involved in some of the promotions and talking it being on some of the boards and presentations, it was. That was a really interesting and fun experience because you got to hear some other people's stories and the community that came after.

C So being able to be part of the community from the beginning was really great.

B Yeah, I can echo that in so many ways. Being a part of the community in itself is such a great feeling, both as an author and then now as an editor. I can make a funny aside, which is to say, like, I now understand all the drag queens who have been on RuPaul's Drag Race are like, you know, it's just like the sisterhood. It's like, yeah, it kind of feels like that as all siblings now that we've like gone through this process. And so in some ways it is almost like being an older sibling in Volume two, coming from this place of having others kind of help to move you forward and now doing that for other people has been really rewarding. And I'll say my experience was different from Julia and more like Shadi's. And I think Jadi can talk about it, about having that interview style for our stories in that it felt already like a collaboration. And I was so appreciative for yourself, Sarah, and also Beau, for you having been those like, co authors in some way with me.

B And so I think taking that inspiration of collaboration into these other stories, making sure that, yes, that honoring these people's individual stories, but making sure that they're being understood in a way that is more universally applicable so that people can truly get at them is so key.

E How full circle that we're all here talking conversationally again.

B Love it.

E I think that was definitely one of my. I don't know, it was. It was unique and that was a very kind of treasured moment of Volume one, at least for me. And I think just Yalls willingness and appreciation to invite us into something that is so raw and the trust of truly being able to, like, have your stories, like, welcome, welcome, like myself and Beau, not only into your stories, but also in how that got represented and really pulled forward into print.

D It was.

E I don't know if you could have asked me anything when we started out in Architecture Volume 1. Like, I don't know that I would have, I think, expected that or also like expected just like the. I don't know, just the community and the trust that came out of it and from it. Yeah, it really was not just about publishing a book, which I think I love to hear and you know, pick up on the threads that Volume two has very much so also not just been about publishing a book. So I wonder, Ace, if you can kind of continue this thread and like talking about paying it forward as like a part of the process. Because you had also mentioned that. And just like within Volume two, really seeing how important that became to the holistic process of sharing our stories and of pulling this collection of stories together. So just, I think maybe not only specific to Volume two, but also in general, can you share a bit more about how you are seeing the importance of paying it forward kind of universally and especially just within LGBTQIA communities?

B Yeah, absolutely. I think given the time that we're in, especially in the United States, it is such a critical moment to hold the line. And in some ways that means, in effect, being exposed, where visibility is something that lacks the same kind of safety that we felt, I would say, with Volume one. And so in recognition of that, even through the process, and I think BO can speak to this as well, we had the second check in with potential authors and said, hey, we want to check in. And this was because of the election. Now that we've had this election happen, and there have been so many just negative experiences across both our country as well as in other places, we want to check in with you, and we want to make sure that you still want to be a part of this, because we did recognize that we were asking people to put themselves out in this way. That being said, I think so many can still recognize their power and privilege within the space. We have a lot of individuals who are much older who are either owners of their own practices or even principals.

B We have a professor who has a well esteemed career. And these are people who are really, truly being vulnerable in these spaces and recognizing that they have the ability to be visible in this way because they do carry that cachet. And so I think that is one of the ways that so many authors are paying it forward is really reaffirming that it is important to be out and open so that others can see you, that you can in some ways shine your own light so that other people feel brave enough to shine theirs.

C Echo everything Ace just said. I mean, I think that's something personally for me, I feel very strongly about, you know, I'm a trans woman, but I am white. I am fairly successful. I'm in a stable relationship and life situation. And so I have a lot of privilege in that kind of smaller community. And so I feel a responsibility to do what I can to be vocal for those who can't. And I try to be vocal. I mean, anytime somebody wants to talk about trans architects or LGBTQ architects, I feel it's important to stand there and speak up so that we can be visible for the next generation and so that they can, as Ace said, kind of shine their light eventually.

C And I think it's a really important part of the mission of out in architecture.

D I want to add something there because I think it's about paying it forward, of course, but it's also about paying a debt and paying it backward if you. That doesn't actually make sense. But I am so often reminded of how many people had to come before me had to exist in name and assortment of fears and challenges and hesitations, et cetera, for me to stand on a stage in front of however many hundreds of professional architecture rooted folks, very likely with like my child in my arms and all of myself talking about my queerness, talking about my blackness, talking about my womanhood and talking about how those things are embedded in the way that I choose to practice. Like there are so many people had to come before me in order for this to even be able to happen. And for that reason, amongst others, I'm also therefore hella determined to pay it forward, to pave the space, to take up the space that that be possible for so many more after us. Right. And so it's like this. It's both.

D And, and I think we are. We're always thinking of that when we say pay it forward, but I don't think that we often get to articulate that truth as well. So I would, I would want to add that to the conversation as well.

E Yeah, I mean, I love that and I think, yeah, you just kind of even look at the last 10 years and trajectory of where the world is and evolves and cycles that for better and even, especially for worse, continue to repeat. And I think both the recognition of where we keep going and aspiring for where future generations will continue to go, but also where we've been. I think the two can't ever not be in tandem and especially in like a moment like today. So I love that you added that, Jadi, and that it is, it is a. Yes. And both in paying it forward, but also in recognizing who has been here so we can also be here. I do want to jump around, Jadi, because I think that this kind of gets to something actually that for me, even like in. In professional practice has actually really recently come up and I was excited to ask you and just be able to even get your insights in this.

E But I think as architects and designers, I'm curious to hear how you have both embodied and seen identities and intersectionalities brought into the rooms that we or that even yourself enter. Because I think I recently got asked this question and I work a lot in corporate architecture and corporate work, which very much so not only has a stigma, but I think can do impactful things, but also can be a barrier at times. And I think have even had some colleagues recently that say, well, I don't know how my identity gets brought into work. So I think in knowing both in paying it forward and almost inviting in so that way others can continue to invite themselves In. I'm curious how you, Jade, have seen, you know, your identities and intersectionalities brought into the rooms and the spaces that we enter in and. And are also a part of designing and shaping

D such a beautiful and complicated question.

E You know, I think

D the beginning to the answer to that question is like, when some of the rooms, some of the spaces that we're in as designers are able to just acknowledge our humanity at all. Right. Like, before we get into the depths and the layers of identities and who I am and how I'm different or how we're the same or what have you. Like, our environments have, over time, been so sterile and been so, like, I am the professional, I am the sole genius. This is about changing the world and altering this. And, like, we just lose sight of

B the people, because who hasn't read the Fountainhead?

D Exactly, exactly. And so I think, like, when we're able to just see each other as people in the room and be like, hey. Hi, baby. Speaking of seeing people, I have a very unhappy four year old with me here whose allergies are just tearing him down. And there's no level of comforting that's gonna happen here. He was asleep and he was like, nope, that nap is over now. And now I want French fries and your ice cream coffee and you to hold me. And I want you to take the headphones off.

D And I also want to go back to sleep, but I can't. So that's the conversation that we're in, in this house right now. But yes, I think still the point of, like, the fact that we're even able to ask each other, how was your weekend? How are you doing today? How are you coming into this meeting? Have you eaten? How's your family? You know, just like, hey, person has really, for me, then made the space and time that allows the more nuanced, deeper conversations of how our collective identities can and should and quite honestly, have always informed how we practice and how we design and how we craft space together. And so that's been one important thing. Like, anytime I'm in a space or visiting another team or collaborating with another firm, if they don't offer me anything to eat, if they don't offer me anything to drink, I'm good. Like, we don't need to be here because we're up at a bad start, you know?

B Yeah, that's not community building.

D Not at all. So that's been one way. But then I think also, you know, other ways have been just asking questions about. Not necessarily. It's not the question of so that when you said Sarah, like, you've had people that say, you know, I don't even know how my identity plays into this. Yes, honey, that's because it's been crafted around your identity, most likely. So you've not, You've not, you've not had to ask that question because it's been embedded, it's been assumed, it's been inherent. You would know how your identity did or did not play into any of this.

D If you were ever in a space where your identity was not seen seen, where you're at, where your presence, where your needs were not met, where you know, your layers were not allowed to unfold, you would know how your identity does or does not play in. And so I think being able to engage in these conversations of design around, like I was saying before, not necessarily like, oh, well, what's wrong? But like, what could we be simply doing better? What could we challenge? What could we change? How could we welcome in more? How could we invite more? How could we be more innovative? How could we be more accessible? How can we be more warm and more transformative? That for me, again, has then brought in the conversations and the opportunities to bring in my intersectionality and to bring in my layered identity around my queerness, around my blackness, around my womanhood into how I then practice and very intentional about, you know, the ways in which I embed those experiences into the design themselves. But it really starts with the humanity, like, hey, person, I choose to want to see you.

B That is so true. And in so many ways, I think, like, even this instance, like, is very indicative of that. And I say that both as, like, cisgender male, but then also black and Hispanic and just recognize that there are some identities that you just have to come with that cannot be hidden. And then there are other things that are just part of the everyday life and experience that are can't be predicted for Jadi, case in point with her child. And I think it's. It's so. It reminds me so much of this current push back around, back to office that's happening for so many organizations. And I bring it up because, of course, we're affected by that as architects, whoever is working in some of these corporate offices, but also because these are our clients, these are people who are for better or worse right now.

B A lot of them are really just focused on the bottom dollar and the bottom line, and they're not thinking about that humanity truly as much as they even were a year ago, let alone 20 years ago. And so it is so important I think in some ways to, yeah, to acknowledge that even on a day to day level, let alone through our book, which I think is such an important piece of that, is really identifying and acknowledging that experience. I will say there are definitely a number of stories in the book, Volume two, where that's happening a lot. You are seeing a lot of people that are discussing their experiences working in different offices and how they were either shunned or hidden or had to like, hide part of their identities in order to conform because of concerns around what their clients would think.

C Johnny, I love the way you put it with, you know, high person and seeing the humanity. And that's such a. I think it's such a wonderful way to think about it. Kind of going back to the idea of privilege. For a lot of my career, I was perceived as a straight white man. And so, you know, bringing your identity doesn't enter into it because everything is cultivated around that. And, you know, when I. When I came out, one of the first times I spoke at all publicly, there was a discussion about how people came out in the office.

C And some people, you know, told people individually or whatever. Someone made an offhanded joke like, well, it's not like I sent an email to the office to say, here's who I am, but I actually did that. When I came out to my office, I sent like 500 emails to clients, contractors and everything. And so, like almost every night you become. I was very visible and you have to exist in that space. And so, you know, trying to use my experiences of knowing what it was like before and knowing what it's like after and knowing that, that's just one tiny part. You know, when we get into intersectionality, you know, my experience is going to be very different than Jadis versus ace. And so you just have to be cognizant of that, and we all have to be aware of that.

C Like, your experience is great, but it's not somebody else's. And so the more we can all see each other as just people and see them as full people, I think it helps. It'll help society and it helps architecture and it helps just interpersonal relationships. And I think it's really important. So I really love the way you put that. Johnny.

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E I think we. We just forget it sometimes. I don't know. And whether that's, you know, some combination of culture or it's just society or just forgetting what a simple hey, how are you doing? Can be. And just a. And I think, I mean, you know, corporate or work or work environments in the United States may be even more apt to do that, to just, like, slow down. And I love that, like, have you had some water or coffee today? Like, hey, let's share a meal. How many of us share meals as project teams and with our clients and.

E And beyond, just like, oh, here's the business structure that we have to do. But who are you as a person when, you know, we're not sitting here looking at a space? And I think the ability for that to then unlock, like, all right, well, how do I bring myself more into this space when we are actually working on it together? I think that can be both forgotten, but also immeasurably important and impactful. So I want to kind of ask, and maybe this is less specific to kind of designing space, but kind of go a little bit back to out in architecture and crafting kind of Volume two. And I know again, Jetty, this was something that really resonated with me when our first kind of conversation with Volume one and about inviting others in and kind of inviting people in to sit on your porch with you. And I think this ties a little bit to, you know, well, how does that get influenced when we're, you know, talking about designing spaces? But I think one thing that you had said in your recording was specific to the importance of sharing stories in general. So maybe I think just for all three of you and whomever wants to go first, but just asking, why is it important to you to ask others to share their stories?

D I will start off while I have the space. The toddler is in the restroom, so I might be able to get through this without my headphones being so snatched out. But, yeah, I mean, it's. The obvious thing I'll start with is, like, we all know the power of stories. The music we listen to, the movies we watch, the thing we share during dinner, during drinks with our friends. It's all stories. And we know the power of that. And we know that it is the opportunity to truly sit with and learn and listen and mourn and laugh and do all the things with other people.

D It's through stories. But I think being able to invite Someone to tell their story is such a generous act of love and labor, right? To be like, hey, I see you. I hear you. I honor you. And I want to make sure that as many other folks as possible have an opportunity to do the same. Will you tell your story? And I think for me personally, first of all, and we should keep this in recording. The number of people I reached out to that did not get back to me, I am hurt. I'm like, do you understand what an opportunity this is? Like, get your ass on this phone.

D Y' all could cut that out. I'm sorry. But I was like, what are we doing here? Jump at it, boo. Like, get to me. Okay? But for the folks who did feel like they had the capacity and had the willingness and had the space to be part of this volume, I will send out the text messages for the next volume, but for those that contributed to this one, you know, I think the other beautiful part about this opportunity to invite someone to tell their story is I know for a fact that I learned things about at least two people that I'm close to that I otherwise would have never learned. We probably could have had God knows how many conversations, trips, work opportunities, dinners and drinks and etc. And some of what they're offering here just would not have come. Come out this way.

D Like, it's the. It's the invitation to be part of this collective that I think really teased out this relatability, this vulnerability, this honesty in folks. And I think that's really where the magic is, right? Like, that's where the. The opportunity to go deeper on the ICU is. And so I think being able to invite or encourage folks to tell their stories is a. Is a gesture of love, Honestly.

B I agree with that. And I'm going to jump in on this one because I will say. Say one of my contributors, because we. The way that we operated in this version is we were shepherds. We had a couple of different authors that we were then editors for before the whole book came together. Had so many similar experiences to myself that, like, I know him kind of in community. He also lives here in Seattle. But I had no idea that we shared so many, like, similar experiences.

B And it was one of those instances where I'm like, wow, I feel so much closer to this person than I ever thought that I could have. And it was just by them sharing their story. I will also say something that I think is so important about this volume, and ideally the volumes after, is that we've made it more international. We have a number of authors coming from Canada, we also have a few other authors who either live in South America or have origins in Latin America as a whole. And I think in that way, we're also branching out and really establishing, like, that inclusivity of our community, which is, like, it's not just monolingual, it is truly multilingual. The LGBTQIA community is not just us in the US and even within architecture like that, there are so many other great aspects and other people doing great work and building community in so many places. And.

C Yeah.

B That we truly are not alone in this.

C I want to take this in just a slightly different way. And, Ace, you kind of touched on it, because I can't really add anything to what you guys already said, because I agree wholeheartedly. But one of the experiences that I thought was really profound in the idea of inviting people to share their stories, because just generally, yes, inviting them to be able to put themselves out there was incredible. But what happened after we had gotten the first rounds of individuals who had agreed to share their stories and put themselves out there, we kind of had a synopsis of, you know, who they were and what they wanted to talk about. And it was shaping up to be very interesting, is that the group was very intentional about what stories we were missing. And so we tried to identify, like, who are communities that we don't have, we aren't seeing. And that was where kind of some of that international line came, was part of that discussion. Well, that's really interesting.

C Is there any more that we can find? And so then trying to have people look through who people they could have connections with who were part of communities that we didn't have as much representation for. And so, again, just trying to use this as an ability to not just share everybody's stories, because everybody's story is unique and is beneficial, and there's a place for everyone's story. But finding those people who weren't represented yet and allowing them to be there, too, was really important.

E Yeah, I love that. I think, and I know that, like, all of us have had this conversation in the past, and even, like Beau, we had this conversation in volume one, but I remember there was a lot of, I think, both responsibility, but also even, like, personal challenge of the responsibility when it comes to having the opportunity to share somebody else's story and, you know, whose story is being represented and shared and ensuring as much as possible that it is genuinely and truly represented the way that they are representing it and not the way that, like, us, as the six original co editors were going to be representing it. And I mean, I think that's something that is often lost in our culture and society. And one thing that I have loved and deeply appreciated in seeing this evolve is that it is really like, like not only, you know, for our communities, but it's also by our communities and that there's just been so much intentionality around that. And I mean, I remember in volume one we made mistakes and I loved and appreciated people coming forward and saying, hey, this is not the way that we want to go about this. And I. We took like a full four month stop to say we need to reevaluate. Like our community is saying, this doesn't align.

E And I think just kind of that responsibility of recognizing whose story is being shared, how is it being shared. And I think just the accountability and the responsibility of not just sharing stories in general, but really ensuring that there is the space for people to fill it up the way that they're going to fill it up in the shape and the form and the fluidity that they really choose for it to be. And I know that that, that altered for me, like the way that I worked and thought. And it was something that easily, like four years ago, I could have run away from and said, no, we have one goal in mind and that's the only thing that matters. And I think just like the personal recognition and growth and like the gratitude that I have that somebody had the courage to say, I don't really know you, but I'm going to say, this doesn't work. And to be like, all right, let's figure out and understand how are we going to create something that does.

B Yeah. And I want to jump in here specifically because I want to say, if you're out there listening to this, it doesn't matter what your identity is. This is a universal thing that you should get out of this whole conversation, which is as a designer, as an architect, one of the main things that you will be challenged to do is to interpret your client's ideas, wishes, wants, basically that author and then needing to be that editor as an architect, as a designer, and saying, is this what you want? Do you want something like this and that feedback, yes or no, like that is so critical to the work that we do. And I think in many ways, even though this medium is different because it is mostly writing, there are some images and I'm really excited to show some of those in volume two. It is something where, like, yes to your. I've had the same experience as you, Sarah, of okay, am I Following this story of this author correctly, if we show it this way. Is this correct? And having to go through that back and forth to make sure that at the end of the day, we are telling their stories in a way that they feel like they still have ownership over.

E So I think you kind of teased this a bit ago, Ace. Do you all think there will be a Volume three or four or infinity?

B Oh, we're definitely doing a volume three. We had too many people submit for volume two, so we already have a list of people for volume three. I'm also going to give it a little shade because there is definitely an author that I really wanted to be in volume two. And unfortunately, their story was not at a point where they felt comfortable telling it. And I respect that. But also, damn, it's going to be such a good story when it gets out there. So get excited for volume three. Volume two hasn't even been released.

B This feels like Beyonce. We're already ready for volume for Act 3.

D I love that.

E Well, that's awesome. Well, I think kind of looking ahead and knowing that volume two is coming, but we have this wonderful moment now where there are more stories than could actually be printed in a single book, which we knew that organic. We know that innately, but I think to actually know, like, no. There is so much opportunity for what's to come. I'm curious just to hear from all three of you, like, you know, what outcomes or impacts can you imagine for queer designers and when queer designers continue to share their stories celebrating all of who they are?

C That's a tough question. Yeah, I mean, outcomes, I agree. I think we'll have more volumes. I mean, yes, there's more stories and I think. But I think it's also. It's still necessary. Right? Like, we may maybe at some point we get to a point where it's, it's. It's not necessary because our voices are so integrated into the profession that we've arrived.

C If there is such a thing as arrived, I don't know. But we're certainly not there. We're not there now. I mean, we are. We still don't even really know how many queer architects there are or non binary architects or, you know, so until we can get to a point where we can see how we fit into the community as a whole, there's still a lot more to do. And I think, I think continuing the mission that you guys started with the first volume and continuing with volume two, then on to volume three, just keeps adding more fuel to the ability for us to Be seen as part of the community and say, like, look, we are not just a couple of us, there's several of us. We need to figure out how we fit together and recognize that we are part of this community.

B I think to add on to that, what I now think of is this in itself out in architecture has become a practice. It's become a continual learning process and a continual growing thing. I don't know if there's necessarily a goal as much as we are just doing this daily practice in a way of being able to express ourselves, to be more inclusive and to reach out to other people. I would say one of the other things that is coming to mind for me is this idea now of not just coming out, but staying out and so not retreating, of saying that we have stuck our stick in the ground and we're not moving, we're not retreating from there, and we just slowly continue to push ourselves forward in terms of visibility inclusivity, both within our profession as well as outside of it. And one of my hopes for Volume two is that it reaches a lot of people who don't feel represented or aren't even necessarily aware that the community like this exists. That I know that there are so many people, whether they're in extremely rural, small communities, only have tangential connections to other queer and trans folks that books like this are so important for them to be able to get access to because it helps them know that they're not alone. And so I think that AD&Architecture1, as a community, as we are here now, it will continue to grow and to build and to develop. And I hope that it only continues to reach more people who need it most.

D Yeah, I would echo that and say that I. My hope for moments like this, the volumes, the process leading up to creating the volume, the process of the outreach and all of that, is that it's liberating for whoever needs that level of liberation, that visibility, that invitation, that touch of love. You know, I think politically we're not even going to go there. But, like, there are so many reasons in our societies to not to be quiet, to be invisible, to stay inside, to stay down, to just bury your head and push through and do the work. And I think this compilation is a reason to shout, is a reason to dance, is a reason to celebrate, is a reason to say no. Actually, we will have a conversation with this. There will be dialogue, there will be acknowledgement, there will be visibility, and in doing so, there will be the invitation for someone else who is currently sitting quietly on their porch alone in their own silence to say, actually, I can invite someone in. I can do this and I should do this.

D This will be liberating for me. And I just, I have so much hope and belief for those types of opportunities for that level of catalyst, especially through the form of a book. Because you can pick up a book on your own, right? Like you can read a book in privacy if you need to as a starting place, right. You don't have to go to the pride parade, you don't have to go to the panel discussion, you don't have to comment on in the sections of the social medias. You can just read the book and be galvanized and empowered from that. And it can be a seed to spark a something else and something else. Or if you are curious and don't feel like you have a way into the complexities of our communities, you don't know who you can ask. You don't want to come off as ignorant or offensive or what have you.

D You could read a book and we've put it in the book, in first person narratives, like we've shared our own stories. This is a source. This is the resource, right? Like, you're welcome, you know, primary source. Exactly, exactly. And so, yeah, I think it's a beautiful tool, right? It's a complicated, powerful, beautiful to it.

E I love that H. I'm like getting chills and I don't know. There's just like, for me personally, I'm thankful to all three of you because I think this is just a wonderful opportunity to see an evolution of four years and like, what can happen in four years. But I think also to know and like, yeah, the. The power of a book as both something that galvanizes and connects, but also can be so individual when it needs to be individual. Oof.

D And I love that.

E I love that. Just because it's in the trail of thought what y' all were sharing. But it just, the. The quote that came to mind was from one of my favorite poets, Mary Oliver, who said, joy is not made to be a crumb, right? So that joy amplifies and it comes back to what you were saying about like, shining your light allows others to shine their light. And. And Mary Oliver being, you know, this amazing lesbian poet who was also so, like, rooted in observation of nature and how that can reveal deeper things in us and how this just reminds me of how the queer community is a part of nature. Like, we're so diverse and we are in every corner of the world and it's just beautiful and When I think about queer space, too. And I wrote about this in my story in volume one was about, like, sometimes I think queer space is what humanity and architecture doesn't touch.

E It's all that interstitial space. It's that idea of, like, we create. We create queer space from just how we navigate through the world, and. And that's about how we bring ourselves into those rooms. So, yeah, really beautiful conversation.

C Everyone agreed.

B And, yeah, the only one last thing I wanted to add, because this came up after Jadi's comment, is I now feel so empowered after having this conversation, because what it's made me realize is this is why they ban books, because they have so much power. And so now here we are saying we don't just have one volume, we have two volumes. This is how much power we have.

E And we're not stopping there, man. Well, this has been, I don't know, sometimes just so much appreciation of space. Kind of shared with you all and this. Your willingness to say yes to this volume two endeavor. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Well, to close this out, I think I just want to ask kind of everybody, any. Any kind of final or parting thoughts that you just want to be able to share with those listening or those that are about to pick up volume two. Just kind of anything off the top of your head that you just would love to share with anybody who's joining us?

B I'll go first and say, if you haven't already picked up volume one, get that. Also get volume two. And if you are LGBTQIA identifying, it doesn't matter what language you speak, reach out for volume three.

C Yeah, I'd say enjoy. Share that. Maybe even if you aren't lgbtqia, share your story, because everybody's story is important, and there's certainly a place for everyone's story in the world.

D Maybe with or without the balloon sound, I would add this level of encouragement that no one can tell the story that you can tell. Someone can tell something similar. Someone can tell something that is aligned. Someone can say that they, you know, relate to an aspect of what you might have to share. But genuinely, no one can tell the story that you have to tell. So come tell it. Come tell it however you want to, whatever format, whatever language, whatever medium, tell the story because somebody needs to hear it is what I would offer.

E Amazing. Well, to Evelyn and to practice disrupted. Thank you for the opportunity to join and all of us directly and tangibly share in this conversation and our stories. And for everyone listening, certainly hope that this is encouragement for you to bring your voice. And as you're comfortable and feel safe, there are many, I am sure, who are excited to join you on your front porch whenever you are ready to welcome us in. So thank you all and we will catch you in San Diego if you're there, or in volume two, wherever you may pick it up from.

A Hi Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.

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