Designing with Purpose: Pascale Sablan on Advocacy, Joy, and Justice

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted, a podcast where we find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. I'm your host, Evelyn Lee, an architect who spans tech as an angel investor, startup advisor, and founder of Practice of Architecture. Whether you're a seasoned architect or just starting in the field, this podcast is your gateway to think differently about the role architects play within our global community.

B Hello disruptors. Welcome to this week's episode of Practice Disrupted. Today's guest is a visionary leader who's redefining what it means to be an architect, an advocate, and a change maker. Pascal Sablan is a CEO of Adagi Associates New York Studio where she leads operations, projects and community engagement efforts. She's the 315th living African American woman architect licensed in the United States and the youngest African American to be elevated to the AIA College of Fellows. She's also a past president of the National Organization of minority architects. In 2021, she was honored with the AIA Whitney M. Young Jr.

B Award recognizing her powerful leadership and commitment to justice throughout through design. Pascal is the founder of beyond the Built Environment, a nonprofit that's elevated over 1100 women and BIPOC designers through exhibitions, children's books, and even augmented reality tools. Her new book, Greatness Diverse Designers of Architecture, is a love letter to the contribution of those long overlooked in our field. Today's conversation dives deep into the power of purpose, the responsibility of leadership, and how advocacy, design and joy can and should coexist. This episode is both a masterclass in impact and a celebration of what's possible when you lead with intention. Let's dive in.

A Hi Pascal. Welcome to the show.

D Hello, Madam President. How are you? Thank you for.

C Well, you're your Madam President too. Madam Pass. You'll always be a Madam President. In my heart, you're always Madam President.

D Yes, that's going to be our new greeting moving forward. Hi, Madam President.

C This has been in the making for a while. I think you have had conflicts. I have had conflicts. Imagine that we've both had conflicts. So thank you for finding time to join us in your busy schedule.

D No, thank you so much for making time. And I honestly believe everything happens when and how they need to. So I think this was our moment. So I'm excited for it. I'm all present.

C This was our moment. A lot of people know you first and foremost for I would say beyond the Built. Is that a good place? A good starting point?

D That's interesting. I actually thought most people knew me from noma and then maybe introduced more to me through beyond the Built Environment, but I'm happy to wear whatever hats at any sequence that you offer it.

C Well, I feel that I first got to know you. Maybe it was pre NOMA presidency because I saw all of the things that you were doing with beyond the Built before you went into NOMA leadership. So maybe, maybe that was like a personal take on that. But let's start with it nonetheless. So it has evolved over time. Do you want to talk very briefly about for maybe anyone who hasn't had a chance to stop by or convene beyond the Built Exhibition? A little bit about it and where it's headed now and how other people can take part.

D Oh, amazing. So beyond the Built Environment is an organization that I started back in 2017 and more recently a few years ago, we were able to make it a nonprofit of New York. So really proud about that. The organizations founded to elevate the work and identity of women and people of color and I found with all the advocacy work that I was doing, we really kept tackling the hard issues, going deep and diving into the history of what the challenges are and being strategic and working as community to make a more just and amazing world. But it felt very heavy. We were always handling such the sad and frustrated parts of seeking justice. And I thought, well, while we're doing this part, can we also celebrate what we've accomplished so far at the same time, in the same strides, with the same breath? And so we have three major programs as part of beyond the Built Environment. The first, most popular and most known is the say It Loud exhibitions, which I say is a traveling activation because every time we have a say It Loud exhibition, the women and people of color of that location specifically is who's elevated and celebrated and is featured.

D This does a few things. A it allows us to continue to cultivate really incredible local talent. It also makes the community very, very hyper aware of all this diverse talent and how they've contributed to their Built environment. Also makes a direct connection for contemporary, currently practicing design professionals to young and aspiring ones so that we don't keep fantasizing and idolizing those who've done great things but are long gone. So when we think about that. And then lastly, it's about giving people the opportunity to smell the flowers while they can really enjoy them. And so that's what say It Loud Exhibitions has done. And through that we've actually curated over 51 exhibitions and have elevated over 1,140 diverse designers globally in that work.

C Is there any geography or location that you would love to see that exhibition go to next.

D Okay, so the say Aloud exhibitions have actually had the amazing opportunity to be invited to cover almost 80% of the US and 10% of the world. And so really, I would love, love, love to make more international connections and to get more countries involved and kind of featuring their work. We are gaining really great ground on it. And even in places where we've had a say It Loud already, really happy to revisit, to kind of expand it, and we kind of coined those say it louder ha ha ha. And that really allows us to create more boards, more information, more content, and actually put them in more spaces. The second program that we have as an organization is the Learn Out Loud children's Pop up book. So this is the idea of kind of taking the content that we're learning from the say Aloud exhibitions through all this work and actually making them, synthesizing them in books where kids can enjoy them. See beautiful caricatures and illustrations of these artists, architects, designers, and then see 3D pop ups of their work.

D And hidden within the art is the words I can too. And the kids have to, once they find it, say it out Loud. I can too change the world. I can too be a designer, a planner, I can too be a president with a podcast. All these things are kind of helping, kind of activate it. And my idea and intention is that it would be kind of, again, location specific. So it could be a Learn Out Loud New York, a Learn Out Loud California, Learn Out Loud South Africa. Like really have fun with it and continue to elevate the work there.

D And then lastly, I would say the See Out Loud augmented reality app and camp. So this you'll kind of tell that I'm a boy mom. We have an app where we play games, we go around, and as we're outside, it encourages us to walk, but it also tells us where characters can be found. And we try to collect them, feed them foods and all that fun stuff. So I thought, what happens if we create something similar again, leveraging the content from all the say It Loud exhibitions where when you're outside, it tells you when you're getting close to a project designed by a woman or person of color. When you get closer, you get to see their headshots and their names. And then when you're right up on the project, you get a marching ant about the profile and silhouette of the project and you're able to draw, create art and take a snapshot and see it on the building at one to one scale. And so that one, that program initiative is actually geared towards preteens to get them excited and empowered to decide and design their built environment while getting to know and advocate, kind of getting more outside and more activated in that space.

D Again, it's about really shortening the gap between who we aspire and who we're proud of to our direct engagement with them. And trying to do that not just in the professional realm, but really think about how to do that with small kids, how to do that with preteens and teens who are most likely to have a device. And then how do we do that for students and professionals? So these are the three main programs that beyond the built environment, are stewarding. And then I guess the cherry on top, if you will, is Greatness Diverse Designers of Architecture, which is the book that we just published. It was released on February 2, 2025.

C I have a copy, but I still need to get an autographed copy.

D Yes, please bring it. I'll bring my Sharpie with me next week when we're in Boston, so I will be sure to sign them. But the Greatness Diverse Designers of Architecture book is four chapters. Residential, cultural, institutional and urban planning. Each chapter starts with an essay from me that talks about how that particular typology can harm and its responsibility to heal. And then I curated 10 projects per chapter that healed through architecture and design. And those projects are designed and delivered by again, women and people of color. This book is really powerful and important to me.

D It took five years to make happen. We are really pushing it for not just being successful here domestically, but again internationally and globally. Again, continuing to elevate the work and identity at a gigantic and obnoxious scale as much as we can is all part of the work.

C So first of all, I had never actually, and this is, this is my fault, but I had not heard of Learn out loud or See out loud. So I'm happy to learn of those two things. If anyone wants to get involved with anything of the three initiatives, is it on the website, how do they get in touch with you?

D Yes. So we have a series of programs and initiatives. Those are the high level ones, but we have a website called Beyondthebuilt.com so that talks about each of the initiatives and some of the new ones or other ones goodies that are up in there as well. For the augmented reality app that's been in a funding phase for a little bit. It's a quite investment to kind of adopt it, but we've been able to find our app developers and we got our first round of grant funding and so we're trying to move that forward and continue that aspect and business model. And then for the children's pop up book that actually is curated from all the exhibitions and we've actually been working with getting a publishing deal to make that move forward as well. So those are less known because they haven't kind of grasp a lot. But if you have ideas or are inspired by anything I said, please do not be shy.

D Please check out the website. Please Follow us on IG and on LinkedIn beyond the built and beyond the Built environment and feel free to email us@beyondthebuiltmail.com to be able to kind of connect and let us know what your thoughts are. We're always happy to engage and expand and explore.

C I want you to dig a little bit into greatness with me because I feel like the designer. You mentioned that it took five years to create, but I also feel like it's the time and the care and your own authenticity coming forward. But the fact that you want this book published at the quality demanded by the people within it. So can you tell us a little bit about that story? Because I don't feel like people kind of appreciate the time and effort that you put into even the printed quality of what that book is.

D No. Thank you Madam President. I appreciate that you see it. So the book took five years, but only really I already had the content right. All the say aloud exhibitions were happening. So it wasn't about the curation process or the design process that actually only took a year. The biggest part of this process was negotiating the deal. And there was a few things that I wanted.

D Many books that I have that celebrate women and people of color are self published. And so I really wanted a publisher to ensure global distribution. In terms of the content, then I had a few requirements. The first is just like with architecture and design, it's not about the end product only, it's also about the process. So I wanted everyone who touched the book to be a woman or person of color. So from the copy editor to the publisher to the manager to the publicist to the graphic designer, all of the people I wanted to again glorify and amplify and provide opportunities for women and people of color in that aspect as well. So that was a really big thing. I got a lot of pushback.

D You know, one of the big pushbacks that I received was to make a paywall with the other niches that I have with my great diverse designers library. That's a repository of everyone we've ever featured, which is online and for free. And I had to say, I'm sorry, that goes against the mission of making this information as accessible as possible. I also got pushback to remove all white women from my book. And I said to them, no, because even though our issues are different, it's yielding similar results and issues in terms of pay equity, justice in the profession. And so no white women need to be in my book. I'm not taking them out. So that killed a few deals as well.

D And so that allowed me to really be intentional and specific about it. And then when it came to the design of the book, I could not have a book celebrating diversity that was exactly the same format. Every spread, have the headshots in the same spot in the same cubes for the pictures. So really exploring ways of allowing the identities of the different designers coming through in the spreads while still feeling a sense of understanding of how to get information in the hierarchy of the pages. I also wanted it to be as bright and as colorful and as obnoxious as the exhibitions are. So we really played with colors across the board. We wanted to make it a nice coffee table book. At first May iteration had began with it being a textbook, but really making it expand in terms of the reach of audience that would enjoy it.

D Really diving into that one of the headshots of those who are featured to be good and noticeable. And there's also a section just on that person, just on them, then their role on the project, what the project's about, and then how that project has healed. And I thought it was really important that we're balancing both elevating their work and who they are at their core as part of that effort. And really making sure that the project, the book itself, is something that people are really proud of. And then two last things I promise is I wanted the greatness to be gilded in gold, right? To show the prestige and the level of caliber of the work that's curated into the project. I printed out every single profile from my great diverse designers library and pinned them up on the wall. And that's how I began the curation process. So every person who had ever submitted by the time we started that book, which was about 886, if I'm not mistaken, was reviewed and considered and taken a look at as it relates to that.

D And then lastly, the title Greatness. So when I thought about the words great architects and I run an Internet search, the results that come in rarely include women and almost impossibly include people of color. And so When I asked the search engine kind of groups like, why does it say this? And they said, well, it's because there's not enough content that lists you. All is great. And that's why I named my digital virtual library Great Diverse Designers Library, which everybody's bio begins with. The great, the great interior designer, the great architect, the great landscape. Like I just put the great. But also that's why it was required for me that the word greatness be in the book title.

C Building up that SEO.

D That's right. And it's working, it's starting to work.

C And we actually need more of that, especially as we take all of that information in and build it into these large language models. So that's the only way that we begin to level the playing field. Even on the Internet. Will there ever be a greatness follow up?

D Absolutely. That's a great question. So when the book first began, I had it like a bazillion pages, a dozen chapters. And my book agent said, pascal, you're moving with a scarcity mindset as if this is the one and only book that will ever happen. You have to think with the mindset of abundance that this is just the beginning. And so when I taped up all those pictures all over the wall, I realized that I actually had nine different topics or sections or typologies represented across. And so I selected two really popular and two not so popular chapters or groups and that's what created the first one. And so yes, I do have another five typologies in the pocket waiting and continuing to build.

D And I really, I really want to have a robust interior section in the next round. That's the one chapter that I know will happen in the next greatness book. But there's other, like, there's other typologies that can be explored in that way. So yes, there's a plan to have a second greatness and it would have similar structure but different typologies and explore different essence of ideas of those explorations that we talked about, the historic context and contributions of those typologies and how they can heal through those projects. So as we continue to have more and more say aloud exhibitions, the opportunity to be potentially featured in a book is still an omnipresent opportunity. And the kids book. So you might not make it to greatness, you know, my diverse designers book, but you could make it to learn out loud children's pop up book.

C So you know, or the project see out loud. So many opportunities to continue to share the work just beyond say it Loud. So I have a question that I've never talked to you about. How did you get into all of this? Where does your advocacy drive come from?

D I will say my purpose really was formed while I was in architecture school. And, you know, when you first start school, the professors say, look to your left, look to your right. This program's so hard. Not everybody's going to graduate. But in one particular class, a professor asked me and another student to stand and said, these two will never become architects because they're black and because they're women. And I was shocked that a professor who didn't know my name, know my capacity in the first or second week of school, could make such a strong proclamation. I was surprised that in a classroom of 60 or so students, there was only two of us that were black women. And also the sheer silence of our peers and the acceptance of that as fact.

D So as a very competitive person and a person who knew since she was 11 that she wanted to be an architect, that was a tough moment for me. And when I sat down, the classmate to my left, Simon C. I'll never forget it, said, prove him wrong. Well, he said it in a very colorful way, but, you know, trying to respect the audience here, he said, you know, don't let that stop you. Prove him wrong.

E Right.

D And as a competitive person, that's the phrase I needed to hear in that moment to activate. But it also helped me see something bigger because I'm from a Caribbean town in an area called Cambria Heights, Queens, where it is of color. And then I went to an all girl Catholic preparatory high school where I was told I was going to change the world because I was a woman. So to come into college and to told that I was inadequate for two things that I had, let's say, taken for granted as a norm was very surprising to me. It also made me understand how rare I was in these spaces, especially in the design space. So I knew when I showed up, I was representing more than Pascal. I was representing my gender, my race, curly hair, people, all of us. So I needed to make sure that I showed up and showed out with each opportunity, that my performance couldn't be and should never be the reason why opportunities were taken away and maybe the root of why things were multiplied.

D And I thank that moment because it definitely gave me a sense of purpose and it made me see what I was pursuing. To be bigger than me, right? And so that gave me a sense of responsibility for the level of care that I approached. Everything from school, classworks, projects, how I Presented myself, how I talked to people I knew I was representing more. But where I really got into advocacy, where the advocacy like took flight, is when I joined noma, the New York chapter, specifically Nicoba noma. And there I was tapped to be on the board as the corresponding secretary and the recording secretary. So I love to type and I love to talk, and it was great to hear and almost feel like a fly on the wall that was taking notes. But I learned so much of the intentionality around the oppression that was happening in architecture. I think I was not oblivious to it because I saw the results of it, but I didn't understand the DNA of how it was manifesting.

D And so through Nicoba and the work that we were doing, I was able to see, ah, these are the agents that are resisting change and these are the agents that are actually pushing it. And here's a whole community of people who are fighting for this. And so the first round of it was just volunteering, volunteering for Project Pipeline Camps, volunteering to help organize networking events, volunteering to just be there and be another voice, another ticket that shows up and makes a project or an effort successful. And then that's when I also kind of got inspired and said, wow, these are really deep, heavy conversations. When are we celebrating us? And that's what birthed the beyond the built environment. And I will say the support organization that helps amplify making say It Loud a success, and I'm going to be audacious and call it a success, is having partnerships with local NOMA chapters and local AIA chapters. Those are almost always my partners in developing and creating these incredible exhibitions that celebrating people and really giving them the shine that they deserve.

C And the AIA celebrated all of that work that you were doing with the Whitney Young Jr. In 2021. What was that moment like for you to receive that recognition from the organization?

D I appreciate the question. So for me, the reason why being honored with the 2021 AIA Whitney M. Young Jr. Award was important because I had applied because at the time, the firm that I was working for did not appreciate my advocacy. And they kept saying that there was no value in the company. And so I thought if I could get some level of recognition to show the importance of the work and now allow for me to get way more support to have these exhibitions to get people to help fund and sponsor, to get people to even submit for them was not easy. It is still not very easy. And so that was what I was seeking.

D But when I was putting the package together and thinking about my 35 words of impact and thinking about all the realms and places that I've been pushing my advocacy forward, I saw how actually comprehensive and singular my mission has been. It wasn't like a collage of different things. Everything that I ever poured into was always working towards the same mission. And so. And to be elevated at that stance and be recognized at this prestigious honor for recognizing others, like what I ultimately got this award for was for celebrating other people was so affirming, I cannot tell you. And then to know that it also triggered a level of position for me, it elevated me to the College of Fellows, which made me the youngest African American to ever receive that honor in all of AIA history.

C I think you were the youngest at the time ever to receive fellowship.

D So what I heard from the archivists, who is very amazing, by the way, she's great. She is on it. I love her. She said that back in the 1800s or late, late 1800s, there was a chapter that when AI was growing, their. Their membership model was Fellows. And so part of their requirements of becoming part of the AIA is that their members automatically was also fellows. And when they did that, there was some 20 year olds who came in in that. So anyway, so in this century, I am the youngest ever.

D But I respected the archivist for having that nuance and telling me that story there. That's why I was able to receive that honor and reach Fellowship, which again also continued to push doors open to allow the mission and the projects and the exhibitions to just flourish. And I think more recently, I was looking at my submission back in 2021, and at the time I had elevated almost just under 500 people. And to now be at almost 1200 people is to show you the power of support, that power of the appreciation and the shine really does make a big difference in terms of propelling the mission forward.

C So the big question is, did you get support from your firm after all of that?

D Oddly enough, I ended up taking an offer at RJ Associates maybe a week before the award was announced. And I remember getting a call asking me if I wanted to join and, you know, that office. And they asked me, like, what would make it a dream job for me. And I said, honestly, to be able to be an architect activist, like during the day so that I didn't have to do it at night and on weekends. And they said, done. And then I was like, oh, well, you know, I'm also the president of the elect of noma. And so they're like, by the way.

C My Calendar is full. Yeah.

D That's why we're reaching out, because that means you understand the importance of advocacy and giving back and being a good leader in the industry. Yeah. We're very aware that you're going to be president of noma. We're so proud of you. And that was something that I didn't get that support. I was actually in trouble for being president elect of NOMA at my previous company. So it actually was irrelevant because I was able to take that into a space where it was already appreciated. And I.

D And I say this all the time, and I think you are one of the people who would actually geek out with me about this. I did not bring advocacy to IJ Associates. It was already part of their DNA. And the way that I can say that is because when you typed in your timesheets day one, there was a. There's a few categories that are always in the system.

C Oh, no, no. You told me this. I heard this tell the podcast.

D Yes, yes. So in the timesheets, there's a few categories that are always, like, in the system. And one of them is advocacy. Advocacy was embedded part of the timesheets as part of your work. And so I knew I had found home when I saw that infrastructurally, not just the conversation, not just the marketing material, not just what's on the website, but fundamentally, it's prioritized and built within the system. That is a credit to David Ajay and the entire leadership team that had ever contributed to that and all those who participated. But I did not bring advocacy to Ajay Associates. It just allowed me to flourish in that part of my identity as a leader in the company.

D And I'm so, so grateful for it.

C I remember you telling me that timesheet story, and it was like, it's very cool because, one, I don't know, I can't think of any other firm that actually has that, like, ingrained within the DNA. You have since moved up in title and position adage, and you are the CEO of their New York studio office. What has that been like for you?

D Oh, my goodness. Well, I will say, when I got the call, I was so excited and happy, and I thanked David, and the first thing he said to me was, no, you don't thank me. You've earned this. That level of support and that level of affirmation was really powerful and important to take on such a leadership role, to know that this wasn't a gift, this wasn't a favor. It was like, no. Through the way that I had been showing up through the way that I had been doing my work, through the way that I had been engaging with my peers, clients, community, that. That was recognized. And this was the result of my efforts.

E Right?

D And so having a leader, a boss, tell you that with a straight face and make sure that I heard it felt really important. And that actually sustained me through a lot of the pushback I then received shortly after, right. Where people were challenging me being promoted to CEO, even though I am well qualified for, between my education and my experience and my expertise, you know, pushback, saying that I'm a DEI hire, like, all those things were very hard for me to understand, but I was already given the armor to allow a lot of that to shed in that way. And although people were very used to me, seeing me in leadership and seeing me in certain spaces, having me have that title was uncomfortable for a lot of people. And it allowed me to really navigate and understand and see again, some of those. Some of those infrastructure things that are in place that, like, hold us back.

E Right?

D And the rarity of me and my identity in this position is something that I don't take for granted in that same sense of responsibility that I felt in school, in that classroom when I knew I wanted to be an architect, wanted to be a great one. I feel here in this CEO position, and I want to do an amazing job, and I want to build a healthy office, and I want my staff to feel empowered. I want my clients to feel seen, and they want their culture and identity manifested to the built environment and everything that I had been pounding podiums and demanding through public speaking and documenting, in books and in exhibitions, I'm able to put in place and to be the example, be the test case, this is the most awesomest responsibility that I take incredibly seriously. And it's important to me that that identity is something that I hold not just during certain hours of the day, but it's allowed to proliferate through. Through my entire existence and being.

C That's not your only identity marker, though, because you're also a mom. How do you do it all?

D You know, I'm not going to lie to you. My son is like the best child ever. He is so. He's such a good kid. And from people like when he was a baby, being on planes with him, people like, you had a baby with you this whole time, like, he's just.

C I mean, you used to take him to NOMA board meetings.

D Board meetings. He's not used to, girl, he's still in NOMA board meetings.

C I was like, I could not take my children.

D Yeah, I mean, I, I promise you. We had this one board meeting with NCARB where we came in as a speaking guest to kind of participate. And it was a time where Xavier didn't have school. So I brought him with me and I had him in the back, you know, on the table with all the other staff members. And throughout this multi hour meeting, I saw him take out his schoolbook, I saw him do his homework, I saw him put on his headphones. I watched him do some of his iPad learning. Then when it was my turn to present, I saw him like take it off and just like watch me present like this. And then when I was done, he gave me like the thumbs up and then kind of went back to his stuff and, and you know, I watched staff members go to him like, are you okay? And he's like, I'm good.

E Right?

D And just people were absolutely blown away after four and a half hours that my, my, my child, who is, you know, at the time, I think six or seven sat through there. So I will say part of the reason why I'm able to do all that I, that I do is because I have the best support system. And that's rooted in Xavier.

E Right?

D He sees the work and I need him to see it so he understands a little bit more about who his mom is. But then also I have an incredible family who helps support me watching Xavier and helping me balance as I move around the world. But also I prioritize self care. And so what I mean by that is, and I still can't remember if this is something that I made up in my head or something that happened. But to stay with me, I distinctly remember an image of Xavier drawing of the family. Him in the middle, holding his dad's hand with one hand, holding my hand with the other, and my laptop in my other hand. And so I realized that even though I was present in the space or in the home, I was always attached to my machine. And that was part of that request when I said, can I just be an architect activist during the day so that I didn't have to do it at night and on my weekends, that was part of that grounding there.

D But so when I leave work, like once I'm at office, I'm focused, but once I go, once I get home, it is, it is his time. We do all the games, we play with all the read the books, we read the dinosaur, we do all the things, and we are both in bed at the Same time by 9:30, we are gone to the world. We are sleeping. But I wake up at 4:35 in the morning every day and that's after I get my full eight hours of sleep. It's glorious. And while he's still sleeping, that's when I pull out my computer and that's when I do my advocacy work where I know I'm not taking away from his time. But before I open that computer, I pray, I work out, I journal, I try to center my day on me first. And my alarm clock that's actually set in my phone is not actually to wake me up, but actually to tell me when it's time to get Xavier up for school.

E Right?

D And so I say all that to say it will only be sustainable for the long term, because this fight is a long term fight is if we don't deplete ourselves in trying to reach it.

E Right?

D So finding ways of braiding, taking care of oneself in the everyday is my number one advice for anyone who's doing advocacy or going above and beyond the work. Because being an architect is already very heavy and very demanding. Being a CEO and is demanding. Being a president is demanding. And so you cannot run on empty, eat, you know, terrible foods, deprive yourself of sleep, and think that you'll be able to be on the grind for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, 60 years, 100 years.

E Right?

D So that's something that I would say is how I try to air quote, do it all. But also I have a team. It's not just on me. I've learned to not only delegate, but it's beyond delegate. It's. I've been able to identify superpowers of people and be humble enough to say, can you help me? And be clear enough about what kind of help I need and trust and collaborate with them for them to show up in those ways. So a lot of the stuff that you see me doing, I'm representing one voice in a group of people who are also moving this forward.

C And I think being clear about what you need, I think is equally important because it took me a while to not say, just stand there and be like, I need help. I think you'll find that plenty of people are willing to help you, but you know, they also have to manage their time and their own well being and their busy schedules. So if you can be clear about.

D What you need, I mean, just to say I need help is huge.

C It is, I don't want to diminish that at all. But it took me a while to kind of learn how to be so clear about that help?

D Well, that's why I said it's not necessarily delegation, because it's not like, okay, I need to do three forms, you do one, I do one and we'll see who does the last one. It's more. So like, here's my dream, right? My dream is to have 10 exhibitions a year, right? So I need help with that so that to you might say, oh, I know how I can help. I can help by featuring you on my podcast that could also say, hey, I'm rich, I can pay for all the exhibitions for you. So you sharing what your dreams are, what you're trying to accomplish, what are your priorities allows people to hear in themselves what activates their passions, their capabilities and what they have in abundance. And offer that when they offer it, give them the autonomy to do it.

E Right?

D That's what I mean. Not to micromanage, not to say, you send this email and I'll do this over here, but just give up a lot of that work. And people are brilliant. People are brilliant. And you're like, ooh, I would have never thought about it this way, right? And so I said that before, like, I want 10 exhibitions a year. And somebody said, oh, I think we could do an exhibition in Nebraska where we use a shipping container. And I was like, woo, tell me more. And they were able to get the shipping container, they were able to get sponsorship for all the materials and supplies and they were able to have this most incredible, say it loud container that has been traveled to like six different locations around Nebraska, from parks to school campuses to parking lots.

D And it wouldn't have worked if I said, oh, hey, all I need from you is to get me funding or all I need from you is this. I just said that I wanted more exhibitions. And so whenever somebody said, well, I have the capacity to help in the next three months make an exhibition happen in my neighborhood, in my community, I think my community would flourish in that. Then we had fun kind of co creating something magical. Shout outs to RDG Nebraska for having that brilliant idea. I take no credit for it, but I'm such a big fan of their brilliance there. So I think the way of A identifying that you are not to do it all by yourself, B, having the courage to say I need help and not feel shame in saying that. And then C, kind of figuring out what it is that you need and that need can be aspirational and then allowing people to kind of step forward in those ways.

C So my follow up question to that is, I Feel like as you grow in leadership too, right? What you do and who you tell your aspirations and your wishes to, one, you have more opportunity to do that. But two, I think you. Some leaders find themselves stepping away from some of the work that they love to do. The firm reference would be like, I really like designing, but if you're a firm leader, then you're the one like bringing in. And you have a lot of employees, they find themselves doing less of the design because they have other responsibilities. Is there anything that you miss as you've kind of grown in leadership?

D No, I don't think so because I've been able to prioritize the time and be very clear about what is within my scope and what isn't, so that I have that ability. You know, in our. At our office, David is the one and only singular designer. He's always been. He's the person who designs every project out of the all three studios. And so my role as designer is not there. But in terms of community engagement and talking about like project development and looking at details and making sure things don't go to construction, those are things that I still get to participate in. Maybe not every like day to day and be the one to move it forward.

D But I'm in most client meetings. I'm in the channels with my teams. I'm looking at the decks. I'm offering my advice and stewarding some leadership there. And that's really, really helpful to kind of articulate. And then in terms of who I get to ask for opportunities for help with is my mentorship. So mentoring. I have like nine to 10 mentors.

D I collect mentors like Pokemon cards. I don't play around because if I identify superpower that you have, then I'm like, oh, I would love to know how you do that. I want to be able to pick your brain. I nurture that relationship not just for a submission here or a particular job opportunity there. I invest in people. And I think ultimately that's what my tombstone was saying, is that Pascal invests in people. I care truly fundamentally and deeply about people, whether that person is my staff in the office, if it's the potential client, if it's a person who just attended one of community engagement events for one of our projects, whether it be somebody that I feature in, say it loud or learn out loud or say it loud like I care about people. And so that's why.

D That's the root of it. And so that's why I don't miss anything. Because my day is filled with me Being able to still pour into people.

C So here's another question, and I'm going to phrase it two ways. You can decide which way you want to take it. What most frustrates you about the industry, or what do you see as the greatest opportunity within the industry?

D I think the greatest opportunity in the industry right now is that we're stepping into uncharted and challenged territory.

E Right.

D There's a lot of unknowns. Everything feels shaky and unbalanced. But there's some core principles that we know that holds true no matter what the storm is coming through. So this really gives us an incentive to ideate, to innovate, and to pivot and to do things in a way that's even more seen.

E Right.

D Like, I think, although this time has been very challenging, and I've gotten a lot more headwinds as it relates to advocacy than I ever had before, it has also made it incredibly, abundantly clear who is for my mission and who isn't.

E Right.

D And it's also challenging me to put aside the templates, the spreadsheets, and the processes and strategies that I've had before that's worked in the past, and it's pushing me to grow and develop new strategies, new templates, new spreadsheets.

E Right.

D And so I think looking at our profession is essentially a profession of problem solvers. We have an awesome opportunity here where there's a very big problem. You know, where it's sustainability, it's advocacy, it's design that heals and protects and all that. All these things are still very needed, and we have the opportunity to show up in that way. And so the thing that everyone needs to understand is that we all have a role, an active role, not a passive role, but an active role, and in designing and establishing the future that we want for everyone. But it's a long game. This is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And in that, there might be moments where you need to pass the baton.

D And they're just some races that is your sweet spot and you gliding through, and you're the world record runner. And some of these are just like, you're holding back the team. And so, like, who do you pass it to? Who has that energy, the time, the expertise to kind of run it through? And so I think those are really important opportunities that we could be seeking here. And thinking about it as we, like, think forward in the next five years and what that means at 20, 30.

C And beyond, you're such a joyous and confident person. You're like, you're one of those people that I really love to be around, because I feel like I build off of your energy. Do you ever have moments of self doubt? And if you do, how do you manage your way through this?

D I do. And you know, I'm sure people are familiar with the term imposter syndrome, definitely is part of it. But that's why I guess I went back to that moment where David said, no, this is not a moment for me to. For you to say, thank you, you've earned this. And that kind of pouring in is the things that starts to chip away at those, like, negative thoughts in that space. I also, through time, challenged my self identity. Right there was during, during, like building my family. I wanted my kids to feel beautiful and amazing.

D And so I thought about what is beauty to me. And I have a head of curly hair that sometimes is more Diana Ross, sometimes is more curly. Like it does what it wants to do on any given day. And how can I tell my kids or a kid, you know, to love themselves if I'm spending hours upon hours every week changing how I look to be, air quote, more professional.

E Right.

D And so investing in getting to know my hair naturally, it was a very big deal. And I had to make a commitment and say no matter what the event, the thing that's happening, no heat can come on my head. I have to do my best to feel beautiful just as I am naturally. So that was a very big one. The next was my name. I used to appreciate my name because it was so rare. People didn't know how to identify either the gender or the ethnicity when they heard it. And it wasn't through watching a TV show where they challenged that that I realized that how can I love my name? Because I thought it was, you know, would go through so many devices when it is actually like literally the representation of your history and your legacy.

D So that allowed me to change my bio. So that was the day that my bio changed to, say, Pascal Sublan, 315th living African American Woman Architecture. If there is anything in that sentence you don't like, you ain't got to keep reading. We ain't got to meet. And I know that that is a privilege of being seasoned in the industry and so on and so forth. But it's also a really important distinction that I show people that you can go to the White House with your hair in a fro. You can be on stage talking to 16,000 people with curly hair and talk about Haitian language and culture. This is all very important.

D And to show up to board meetings with your baby.

E Right?

D These are. And I know I can't call him a baby anymore, but hence here we are still calling my 9 year old a baby.

C I call mine. Mine are still babies. They're going to. One's going to be taller than me soon. But yeah, he's still baby, you know.

D I know, but I say all that to say what pushes against that kind of self doubt is so many people coming up to me and saying, while you bringing X meant this to me, while you wearing your hair like this meant so much to me, you saying that in your bio means so much to me. I realized that my, the things that I was challenged within, the things that I was pushing through was again representing a community way bigger than myself.

C So you mentioned about collecting mentors and I feel like, and I imagine you have a lot of people even DMing you on Instagram or DMing you on LinkedIn. Hey, Pascal, can you be my mentor? What is the best way to go around finding a mentor if you were to give advice to another professional on how to make those connections? Because I, I personally struggle with that a little bit because it is easier for me to mentor somebody that I'm excited about. Not, not to say, you know, that you have an interpersonal connection with. But I have personally always struggled with these dating mentorship connections. Right. Because it is kind of like dating and you know, I just feel like the mentors that I have lasted over the long term are the ones that I call great friends. Maybe you look at mentorship a little bit differently than me, but I always feel it's hard when you just kind of smash two people together and say like your mentor, your mentee go, yeah.

D I think that's because in every experience you're both irregardless of the person's title, rank or age. In every instance, you're both, you are both present as both a mentee and a mentor at all period of time. And so the first set of advice is don't try to idolize any particular person and don't think that one person has all the characteristics that you ever would want in a mentor or in you.

E Right.

D You're trying to create the best version of yourself and so you know the parts of you that you want to amplify. So when I look for my mentor, I'm looking for somebody who's actually excited, selling in an aspect of their life that I think I need to build up or could be better at or would want to be a strong pillar of my identity. And when I reach out it's less of like, hey, can you be my mentor and I'll take you to lunch or take you to dinner? Like, I know you know how to eat. You don't need me to be there to help you eat. But it's more so like, how can we have conversations where you get something out of it too, where it's symbiotic and so how can we build relationship? And like, what does your cadence of engagement look like? And I also am very respectful of that mentor mentee dynamic. And so although people might, a lot of people might ask me to be their mentor, that's a very big request for me, especially because I don't want you to feel non important.

E Right.

D So with my calendar, my schedule, my travel, I want you to feel. So I say, like, okay, I'm down to be a mentor, but it is your responsibility to get on my calendar.

E Right.

D Like, it is like, you have to follow up. Like, I cannot chase you. Do not tell me, like, oh, I emailed you, I never heard from you, so I stopped being your mentee. That's not how it works. You got to like, hey, it's been two weeks.

C That's fair. Yep.

D Tell me where we are. And then also I've also provided space in my calendar to mentor.

E Right.

D And so what I mean by that is that I have an open office times but from 9 to 9:30, Tuesday through Thursdays, where people who DM me, people who are on LinkedIn and says, hey, Pastor, I'd love to, to chat and talk. They are able to schedule a time and we talk about whatever it is that they want to talk about, where they are in school, what they want to plan for the future job, whatever I can and however I can. Because even if I can't be the solution to the thing, my network is so vast that I'm like, I know exactly who you need to connect with. Oh, I know about this program that the AIA is doing or I know that the NCARBIT has this funding and like, so I'm able to offer feedback that also helps. So again, a lot of people seek mentorship when it's looking for jobs or looking for an award or so on and so forth. But honestly, it's a consistent thing. I will be honest and say I just got a new mentor two months ago and that mentor specifically was about leading an organization, like leading a business, a Fortune 500 company. And I was like, I want to think at that scale.

D I want to be able to lead at that scale. I want my network to Excel, expand at that scale. Teach me.

E Right?

D And so we figured out what our cadence are. And he actually is more structured, right? I'm not as structured as he is. Like, he's like, oh, no, here's your homework. The next time we meet, finish this book. You know, like, watch this, this lecture. We're going to have a conversation about it. And so this is really important. And I will say, my mentee, Sarah Jane Mortimer, she is incredible.

D But she's showed up consistently, kept us, like, connected. But she'll always say, like, hey, when we meet, like, what do you need help with? And I'm like, no, I'm just working on a say aloud. She's like, okay, I can help. And I was like, no, I'm almost done. She's like, delegate, Pascal, how can I help you?

E Right?

D And so. So sometimes we're on the phone or on a zoom together while we're both working on something together, and we're just talking and talking about life and hearing what are some challenges she's experiencing and giving advice on how to navigate and then vice versa. She also gives me insight to a different generation, a different mindset, and different.

C A different language. I feel like I need to learn a whole new language.

D Correct. So that's why I said, being a mentor doesn't mean you're only sitting in the position of mentor the whole time. There's definitely exchanges that happen throughout the entire relationship.

C No, that's amazing. And I think I can definitely. Well, maybe not this year, but next year. I like how you kind of set aside that time to allow that space to have those conversations, and it means the world.

D Like, honestly, I talk for 30 minutes with them and they're like, oh, my God, this was so insightful. You kind of take for granted the number of people, you know, the programs you know about, and it's actually able to support people. And, you know, I tell them, like, listen, I'm here cheering you on. Like, keep me posted. Let me know if you need anything else. Schedule another one if you need. Like, this is. This is what I can do.

D And it's something that I'm really, you know, again, proud that my office allows me to do that. That gives me that flexibility, and I leverage it.

C So since we're on the topic of mentorship and mentees, what is a piece of advice that you find yourself giving often to either young architects or emerging professionals or those new graduates just coming out of school? What do you share with them often?

D Share with them. So usually when I'm speaking to students I say to them, a, get a LinkedIn profile. I was like, this is so important to get one of those. And then B, that their classmates are their professional colleagues, that they have to use their time in school to build their network and their reputation. And the way they show up for class and the way they show up for projects is their reputation in professionally. And so. And also to understand that architecture and design and construction is a collaborative profession. It's not singular.

D So this is an important opportunity to work as a team, to leverage each other's skill sets and to grow, not to be hiding, oh, here's what my project is. You don't get to see it, just like, to share, to offer advice, and to build together. That shining light on somebody else doesn't take anything away from yourself, but that when you graduate and you each kind of get positioned in a different project office location, and then, you know, a few years later, y' all getting elevated and promoted. Y' all are getting promoted together, right? And so you're like, oh, man. A lot of my business development colleagues are people that I went to school with. And the way I carried myself in college, people like, oh, yeah, in my job where I get paid, I stake my reputation on tapping in Pascal because I know she's going to show up and show out when she, like, is a part of something. And then the next thing that I say, young emerging professionals, is that you are already in the position to mentor. You do not need to wait till you're.

D You're. You're retired and you've done all the things for you to start. Okay, now that's time to give back. Every step you're taking in your career, you are in a position and poised to mentor the person right behind you, because your lived experience is actually probably more relevant than talking to somebody who graduated many, many, many moons ago. Even the acronyms change, right? My IDP is your axp. Like, all of it is different. And so knowing that at every stage, you have a responsibility to mentor and to pull the next person behind you forward with you is really important. So I would say those are the main feedbacks that I tend to give.

D I also often, often refer to them to organizations that have prioritized some of the things that they're struggling with or passionate about and say, get involved. Like, part of this is get involved. Show up, you know, build your community. And then I would say lastly, especially for those who are working in offices, getting promoted isn't about the work you do at your computer. It's about your network. It's about the visibility and the reputation that you do so being and attending AIA events of your local chapter, going and volunteering at your local no More chapter. These are where you build your professional career and actually your reputation that gives you visibility that then actually truly propels you in your promotions in the workplace.

A Hi Disruptors. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of Practice Disrupted. If you like the content for today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining me, our speakers, and other disruptors in our community@practiceofarchitecture.com community. Our social media handle is practiceofarch. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.