New Service Lines - Building a Multidisciplinary Practice

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Today, we are talking to Christina Cho and Ming Thompson of Atelier Cho Thompson.

B If you're not familiar with the work of Christina and Ming, I first recommend that before you even start listening to this episode. You open your web browser and go take a look at their beautiful website. It's worth browsing their projects, before you get started listening because it is just incredible to see the breadth of work and some of the really unique projects that how they are working on. And they are both extremely talented designers. In in addition, they're visionary entrepreneurs who represent a new generation of firm leaders.

A Yes. I'm I'm super excited because they stem out of generation x, how Similar to myself, they are 2 amazing Asian American women. They are both mothers of 2.

B How They are educators and firm owners of all things considered a small bicoastal firm doing a lot more than just architecture. In developing this episode, we started with the question, what types of new service lines are firms designing? And this led us to think of inviting Atelier Joe Thompson to the show because we knew that they would make for a really great case study in a few different ways. We're gonna be asking Christina and Ming a lot about their business structure, how they are diversifying their offering, and how they thought about the creation of their business. And so as you mentioned, Evelyn, as co owners, they're collaboratively building this business from 2 different parts of the United States, which in its own right, that's pretty, you know, unique in terms of an architectural practice. I've heard of, you know, different companies having leadership at different offices. It's probably much more rare to have 2 co owners that are on opposite coastlines. So from that single idea, they're a very innovative company, and you can see that they're willing to do things differently. And I'm hoping there are gonna be a lot of really great interesting ideas that Christina and Ming can share with us during the interview about business creation and being entrepreneurs.

B How So, Evelyn, I wanted to first ask you how you learned about Atelier Joe Thompson.

A Yeah. I first met these 2 when they had newly transitioned how working together at a firm to creating their own firm. We were connected through the Equity by Design initiative or what was initially called the missing 32%, work body of work that was rolling out of AIA San Francisco. So why don't I go ahead and read a little bit about the firm, and then we'll jump to the bios before we get into the interview. How Atelier T. Thompson is a multidisciplinary design and concept firm with offices in San Francisco and New Haven. They are engaged in the art of architecture, interiors, graphics, brand strategy, furniture, installations, and exhibitions. How their expertise and passions transcend the conventional boundaries between the disciplines, resulting in a richness born of the cross pollination of ideas and strategies from across the spectrum of design.

A This integrated design approach produces holistic environments how which all elements are deeply related to each other and to the heart of a

B central concept. Christina Cho Yu is cofounder of Atelier Cho Thompson. She leads the San Francisco office and is a licensed engineer and architect in California. Christina received a BS and MS in civil and structural structural engineering and construction management from Stanford and her MArch from the Harvard GSD. She started her professional life as a structural engineer at internationally renowned ARUP, working on projects like the California Academy of Sciences, labs, universities, bridges, and more. She's worked in LA, New York, San Francisco, Seoul, and Shanghai at firms like SHOP Architects, Nerian Hu, and Bolen Swinski Jackson. She's an she's an adjunct professor at the California College of Arts, most recently teaching an advanced urban studio on the Post Retail City, which has led to involvement in SPUR, which if you don't know, is a San Francisco based nonprofit working on the urban environment, and their working group for reopening the ground floor in a COVID era.

A Ming Thompson is our 2nd cofounder of how Atelier Cho Thompson leading the New Haven office. Ming was a recipient of the AIA Young Architect Award in 2020. She received her education at Yale College and at the Harvard GSD. Ming has taught at the California College of the Arts and has served on design juries across the US. How Ming is cochair of the AIA Connecticut Women in Architecture Committee and writes and speaks frequently on the topic of equity in architecture. How She is a 1st year adviser at Yale and serves on the board of the Yale China Association. Let's how to the interview. It would be great to learn how you guys decided to leave your full time jobs and jump in to this new endeavor full time.

C Ming and I were at BCJ, which is an amazing firm. We've learned so much, and we are also looking for ways to work with them actually currently. Habit. And we were working on projects like the Apple Stores, like the flagship Apple Stores internationally. I was also working on the Square headquarters, really exciting projects. And then we did Ming and I worked together on a parking day design, and I feel like that really sparked, this whole idea of starting our own company because we were not only designing the furniture pieces on the street, But we were working with different vendors. We were kinda creating an event. You know? We we got how Two food trucks to come.

C We did marketing for it. We created the sandwich board for it. We just kind of how did this whole, like, three sixty approach to designing that day and had such a blast and realized that we worked so well together. And It it's got us to thinking that there were all these side interests that we had. Like, Ming used to have a graphic design firm. She worked in museums and even thought that she might how work in museums full time, but ended up going to architecture school. And, I too really loved exhibit design. And so we just had all these other interests that we'd kind of been pursuing maybe as hobbies or wishing that maybe we could how Do them again, and then we were like, you know, we live in Silicon Valley.

C There are a lot of fledgling companies that how not only need architecture services, but probably need graphics and strategy and branding. What if we Offered that full suite of services. I feel like that would really take off and work here. And then we can also start doing some of the things that we how like to do that we've been having to relegate to the hobby category of our lives. And so we just kinda went for it, and how It actually worked.

A And I don't know, Ming, if you wanna tag on to that at all or just how even tell our listeners what parking day is for those who are outside of San Francisco and might not be

D as familiar. Sure. Parking day is a a project to take over parking spaces for one day to give them back to the use of the community. So people set up Mini golf courses are like, sleeping pods or things on the street that show kind of inventive use of space. So for Christina and I, we came up with this, packable set of furniture and created a whole event with food trucks and neighbors and sort of how programmed out the whole day, and it was a it was a great way for us to find out how we love to think about space holistically, not just from how the design of architecture, but from the graphics and all the other elements that went into that day.

B Can you paint a picture for us about what that initial 1st year looked like for you. Sure.

D I think, you know, one important part of being an entrepreneur is you have to have a how Good helping of a naive hope, and that propels you forward through a lot of things in life. And so I think we went into this Knowing that we had a dream for ourselves and a vision, and we did something that encourage all young architects thinking about starting their own firm to do, which is how treat it very formally. So don't go into this in a haphazard way, but get a lawyer, get an accountant, set up a real business, how to get insurance, do all the things that are required to build a real company that will last in the long run. So I think For us, it was, the 1st year was very up and down. I think we we had projects at the beginning that didn't go all the way through, but those projects help us get out on our own how on our own feet. We also at that in our 1st year, both of us were pregnant. And, You know, I think we're really lucky to come of age in this time. I've talked to women of other generations about discrimination, about bias that they faced, and I think of course, we see that to some extent in parts of our careers.

D But in general, I think especially being in San Francisco, a very progressive place, that we we embrace who we who we are, and we presented ourselves to the world as as who we are. I do remember there were times when how We would mention to another female architect, oh, you know, we have we're both pregnant. We're gonna have kids, and we have to get right back to work right after right after the birth. How And I remember 1 woman saying, yeah. Right. That's never gonna happen. But we did it, and we did it 4 times altogether. And now now we both have 2 kids.

D And, You know, I think being women, we have you know, as women who've been through pregnancy and been through having young children. We're lucky that we have, great partners who help share in the child care, and That's one piece of advice I always give young young women is, like, actually, one of the best things you can do for your career is choose the right life partner Because you need someone who will share equally in all the complexities of modern life, having 2 careers and having kids. And I think we've been lucky to have clients who hire us because we are progressive and because we are young, because we're a new generation of architectural thinkers, and, we, like a lot of women, have to roll the microaggressions that we might face on construction sites. But in the long run, I I think we bring professionalism and bring, confidence and bring design expertise to our work, and that's what how That's what really, defines who we are to the people that we interact with. Not not as much that we're women, but that we're professional and hardworking architects.

A I realized we fully jumped into how you guys met and and just starting up the firm, but we actually haven't really talked about Atelier, Cho Thompson, and how The services you guys offer, Christina, you began to touch on that. Do you guys wanna talk about what's the different type of projects that you guys are working on in the beginning and how that's transformed over time and any pivots you might have taken and where you've landed now.

D Sure. Christina mentioned that coming off of parking day that we are really excited about all the different things that we got to touch as part of design work. And so When we launched the firm, we had this vision of a holistic design practice where, first, we are concept driven. So by having a concept, We have a kind of touchstone for the project that everything comes back to. And then we are a firm that does architecture, interior design, graphic design and strategy. And so all of those different disciplines come back to that central concept and help support it. So I feel like we've been very fortunate that we've, worked with clients and projects where we've gotten to really enact that vision that we set out for ourselves. So, for example, one of our clients in New Haven is a, great local restaurant owner, And we got to work with him on the architecture, the interiors, the graphics, and kind of the strategy for launching the vision of his company.

D And When you get to do all those things, not only is it better for the client because they have a kind of one stop shop where they can work with 1 design vision one design team on all of these things, but it's also really exciting for us because we get to make sure all those things work together rather than having a jarring graphic identity that doesn't go with the architecture, and it allows us you know, as architects, the exciting thing is that we get to be generalists in a really good way, and we get to really embed ourselves in this restaurant project, for example, and learn a lot about the way he cooks, about his vision for ingredients, about his relationship with farms, and really build that all into the design vision for the, how for the company.

A I think a lot of people would hear just the the different multidisciplinary services that you listed, how Meng and think that you guys are are a lot larger than you are. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the size of Toto Thompson, and how you're able to manage this diversity of services.

C Yeah. Currently, we are 8 full time staff and 2 interns, but we also have this program called Design Brigade. And Ming, how many Yale students are in that?

D Fifteen students and then, like, 20 professional advisers, I think.

C So and then like last summer, we had 5 interns. So we kind of start at 8 and balloon up depending on how many interns we have. And we actually do have a lot of interns because Ming in particular is very involved at Yale, And then, sometimes we have CCA interns too because of my involvement here. So we are a multidisciplinary firm, as Ming mentioned. I think what's different about us compared to maybe some other multidisciplinary firms that are larger is that we hire multidisciplinary people. We're not big enough to have a graphics group. We finally gotten to a point we have someone who is trained as a graphic designer, But, you know, everybody that we hire has an interest in more than what they were formally trained to do or have an interest or expertise in what they're formally trained to do. And so I think the difference in the way that clients will then interact with us or the experience that they'll get in working with us is that, you know, they don't start by having, someone do their branding and then get handed off to a different person at the firm and then handed off to another person at the firm to do interiors.

C So you kind of have the seamless experience where you know that the same person that you explained your, business strategy 2 will will be working on your ultimate space, and I think that definitely kind of, sets us apart.

B So you guys are now 7 years old as a business and you offer so architecture and interior strategy and graphics house and furniture and installations. Can you give us a couple of examples of different variations of how you've offered those services to different clients?

D Sure. There's a wonderful project led on our West Coast, office, for a venture capital firm. Christina leads this project, so I'll just brag about her. That has been a beautiful execution of an integration between all of those things. So we were there when the how Clients help started to name their company, and we came up with the logo and a graphic identity. As they moved into a couple different temporary office spaces. We help set up those office spaces in a very light touch way. And then when they were ready to grow into their large full office, We led the architecture and interiors for that, and we integrated the graphic design into the space through signage and different elements.

D We created custom furniture for lots of different parts of the project and, custom lighting, custom installations, And created a really unique kind of space. It's a an office that draws inspiration from homes, from libraries, from gardens, from coffee bars, and draws different typology, together and to create a very dynamic kind of office. And I don't think it could be nearly as interesting if We had only done one part of that work, so that was one where we really got to work, on a lot of different scales. And there are others where we, how In a smaller way, in in in fewer disciplines do similarly kind of cohesive work. We're we're doing this very long term project with the San Francisco Unified School District to reimagine cafeterias in 90 different schools across the district, And the budgets are super low. I mean, as you guys know, public school cafeterias can be really tough places to be for kids and can If we can make them better places to be, kids will eat. They'll be able to learn better because their blood sugar is up. They're having better social experiences.

D But how The district doesn't have money to spend 1,000,000 of dollars renovating every cafeteria, so we do a very light touch, project there where we how Come up with new furniture. We come up with new wall graphics that illustrate different aspects of the school's culture, and we come up with simple things like paint changes that how really make a big impact. So that's a case where we have architects and, interior designers and graphic designers working together to come up with holistic visions. That doesn't mean that we're building out a full space, but bringing that expertise to make really incisive and impactful change, in these public how cafeterias.

B You know, actually, it's funny. I think that my marketing coordinator that I heard worked on your cafeteria project, Lucy Peterson. She was one of the graphic design students at CCA. She showed me that in her portfolio.

D Oh, yeah. We, we're have this really great connection to CCA through Christina, and then we have several alumni from is part of our staff, and we've had a really great time interacting with them through internships and through coursework To have them have input in some of the graphics. Yeah. They did some really good work. Very impressive.

B Yeah. She's really talented. I guess What I'm really curious about, you know, because you guys have worked in BCJ, obviously, that would be more towards that traditional model of, architecture as a service, and then I think you guys now have this experience of running the business with diverse, services you can offer your clients. So what have you learned by diversifying your offering? Has it creating serve new service lines, how does that help you as a business, when you compare it to maybe more of a traditional model of architecture and how services are sold.

D How Normal architecture is a pretty bad business model. I think any architect will tell you. They're frequently, you know, not able to bill for all the hours they do, and I've heard I I always thought this was a small architect firm problem, but I was talking to a founder of one of the biggest American architecture firms, and he said exactly the same thing that, You know, 50 years into his practice, they still have that same problem. So, I mean, for us, it's a it's first, you know, a great way for us to enact our creative vision, but second, I think it's a better business model. You know? We're all going through a very strange time in architecture right now, and I think how Having our graphics work be part of our portfolio means that we're going to be able to weather these uncertain times more nimbly. And I think having a very diverse portfolio means that as times change and as, for example, commercial office work is disappearing, that we're more, experienced and able to take on work from other typologies, other disciplines, and things that how might not be traditional pure architecture.

B You guys even have a shop on your website where you sell some of some different products. Do you wanna tell us a little bit more about what you're doing with that?

A And it's it's not only on their website, they actually have a full brick and mortar store. I I feel like that's a whole another entrepreneurial pursuit altogether, but I'm I'm sure that you guys think it's it's all a part of kinda everything else that you're doing too.

D So in both of our offices, we're on the ground floor of the city, and that was a really important thing for us. You know, in New Haven, there's all these fantastic architecture firms, but they're usually on the 2nd floor, and they're kind of invisible to people. So we've always been really interested in engaging with the places that we are with our communities. And when we went to look for an office in New Haven, we looked for a storefront office. And a lot of time storefront offices mean that there's, like, old renderings fading in the window out front or, like, old old broken models out there, but We set up the store for a few reasons. I think first was that we've been designing products all the way through. Like I mentioned, these these fabulous tables, like this how Office, chairs, artwork installations. We're always making things for projects, and so we've had a long term vision of wanting to really develop those how Projects, and that sort of led to us talking about a store.

D And so why not have a store where you could also sell great, beautiful products made by other designers in the US and abroad. And so in our store right now, we sell amazing paper cuts by, ex architect in San Francisco. We sell these pencils that we love from Japan. We sell, locally made paintings in New Haven. And the storefront, It's a store, but it's also a way to get people in the door to to learn about and talk about design. So, you know, it's it's it's supposed to be kind of like a jewel box on the street. There's not a lot in New Haven of kind of, like, progressive design that's being sold in stores. And for I mean, I I still believe in in person retail and that seeing things in real life, smelling the soaps, Touching the pillow has a meaning and having a way to get people in the door, then we often engage them and talk about design.

D So we've met new friends, new clients, new neighbors that way. And we have events in the office. When when the office is normally open, we have events like craft night where we have kids' activities. We've also been planning, like, a speaker series that we wanted to have about design and its intersections with other parts of the city, and the store is kind of a gateway to that. It, like, is the you know, it's the boundary between the street and the office, and it's kind of a permeable boundary where people can come in and how Engage with us and learn more about design. So it's interesting. I know it seems like it's kind of out of it's it's a totally different business model, but for us, it kind of felt like a natural outgrowth of of all the things we're already doing.

B And I wanna talk about 1 more case study from your firm that I think how A lot of people in architecture know your work, but they may not know that you guys did it, which is the equity by design graphics. You guys helped with, coming up with the, graphics to support the data from the research project that was done around equity and architecture. And they were beautiful graphics. I mean, seriously. So, how did you guys get involved with that, and, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

D Sure. We in San Francisco, that project really started as something called the missing 32% project, which meant that women and men were graduating at about equal rates from graduate school from from architecture school, but years later, only 18% of licensed architects were women. So with that in mind, locally in San Francisco, this effort started to how find out what's going on and what can we do about it. And, you know, if you don't have metrics, you can't find out what the problem is and then you can't find out what the solution is. So Beginning with metrics, this project sort of has grown into something that the AIA nationally is invested in And has grown into a very large survey that's been done every 2 years. And at the time, we worked with Rosa Shang at BCJ who really led this effort And others on that group, who have been our friends and our colleagues. So we've been kind of part of the group from the beginning, supporting them in lots of different ways, We've been lucky to be their graphics partner on the survey and really getting to be part of the group that's seeing that how Data collection grow and look not just at women and men, but intersectional issues, race, looking at not just, you know, 2 genders, but all genders, and seeing how people can create actionable items. And I think, you know, all the work that AI is doing now with the equitable practice guidelines.

D Those things are all part of the ecosystem that's creating real change in the profession, and so we've been really Lucky to be part of one of that, one aspect of that change.

A When you guys started talking about how You came together. You were both in Silicon Valley. Was it always the intention that you guys would be splitting coasts? And, you know, and how do you guys work between the 2 coasts the way you do.

C No. It was definitely not our intention that we would split. Although, like, both of us are really close to our families, so I kinda knew that how Ming probably would move back east. I mean, the real reason was also that her, husband got a he's a professor at Yale now. But how We didn't even think for a moment when she moved away that we would ever split. Like, it's close to impossible to find I mean, we we always say that finding a business partner is like marriage. Who you partner yourself up was that important, And so I didn't even think for a moment that we would split, and we've made it work through, you know, all of the great technology that's available to us today. And I think unlike other firms where, you know, they they are a bicoastal firm, but they kind of have their own projects and don't really communicate with each other.

C We how Really I mean, we're just not that big for one thing, but we really work very closely together all day long on projects. For example, right now, we're working on a large project, a school project in Houston, and there are there's 1 person from my company, my firm working on it and 33 of them over there, and we are just, on Gchat, how Zoom all the time, sharing Pinterest boards, using Asana, Google Docs. Like, all of these things really how Allow us to be, kinda operate as one firm. And so we were doing that even before the pandemic, and so the we've really had a very seamless transition during this time.

A Do you guys have an idea of how of what's next. What do you see for the future of

C the firm going forward? Yeah. I think that a lot of our strategy work is actually Coming into play a lot in during this pandemic because it's an unprecedented time, and business as usual how does not work anymore. And so we've we we have a lot of clients coming to us because they know that we're agile thinkers. I actually just read this article That felt validating for us. I I shared it with Ming, and I was like, you know, this article is talking about how the future is about the importance of smart generalists how You can make these connections between industries, these cross disciplinary con connections, and from that, be inspired to enact change or, how And I think that really hits the nail on the head for who we are. You know, we work in a lot of different how Industries and typologies. And during this time, we have, someone come to us wanting to reimagine the now defunct bankrupt department stores. Reimagine that space, and how can that be a catalyst for suburban malls.

C We started the design brigade program to reimagine nursing homes how and learning environments or how to reimagine learning outdoors when we can't go to school. And so I I see our strategy work really taking off. And even if they lead to architecture projects, clients come to us because we know that how we're able to think outside of the box when it comes to those types of typologies.

B There's been this whole debate. I'm sure you guys are aware. There are a lot architects that want to be generalists, but there there is another perspective that the generalist kinda is going away because of, Like, if you take, for example, some of the larger public projects to go after that kind of work, you have to have so many projects to be able to compete. However, the how The way

A you guys are talking about

B generalist is really interesting to me because I don't know that I would have thought of you guys as generalist because I think you guys kinda fit within this whole other, like, dimension of you're kinda your own your own type of architectural our practice, which is pretty amazing. So I was curious, like, can you speak more to the idea of the generalist and why you guys identify with that so much?

D I I mean, I think, like, as Christina alluded that space has changed. Like, homes my home now is also my workplace. It's also my child care center. So there are collisions between all these different typologies that are happening, not because of the pandemic, but just because of life in general really changing. I think in an example of the office that we talked about earlier, nobody wants an office that looks like an old office anymore. How People work in different ways, in different places, and they wanted to bring all of that experience and liveliness into their office. So I think we we're a smaller firm, so I think it does help that we're working on projects that are on the smaller side where we get to blend different typologies together. We are going after, like, a larger academic project right now.

D We're actually teaming with a a much more experienced architect. Because you're right. There are some projects where they won't give you the project unless you've done the project 10 times before. So how is a young firm supposed to compete when that's the criteria? But I think we're saying that we can bring something special because we've worked on maybe we haven't done this specific typology before, but this typology should be influenced by all these other types of work how happening out in the world that we get to be a part of.

C I I also don't wanna discredit people who have deep expertise in things. I mean, I got it. Both of us have master's degrees. I have 2 master's degrees, 1 in structural engineering, and I even have a license. So it's not like, I'm advocating for dabbling in a whole bunch of things and not really being good at them, but I do see the value how and diversifying and being able to connect dots between domains that aren't necessarily seen as related to each other.

A How Tying into that then, and I I know you guys have deep roots in the education system where you are, but how do you recruit how for your firm then and how you know, is there something different in the process that helps you identify kind of how a multidisciplinary or more generalist individual who can really get excited about a lot of things and carry the projects through on many different levels.

D Hiring is very important for what we do. We hope that when someone joins our team, they're here for the long haul, and they become part of this, you know, family of crazy, dynamic, creative thinkers. And we hire of course, we're looking for skills and Revit capabilities and all those things. But, really, more than that, you need to hire for a kind of person who is kind, nimble, thoughtful, good at listening, interested in the world in a very broad way. I feel like when I look back on my life, the people who've been kind of the most intense architects who only care about architecture in a very narrow way, how Those people really suffer a lot in the field because there's a lot of our day to day lives that is very dynamic and very how diverse and the things that it touches. Like, you need to be interested in the history of your city and interior design and architecture and, like, social change, and Our conversations are wide, and and through our work, we're touching a lot of ideas about the future and what the future looks like for education, what the future looks like for for offices, for homes. So we need people that are inspired and excited about these things. So I think we're looking for people with the kind of personalities and outlook that will suit our team well.

D And then, of course, we want people who are, you know, great designers and excited about design. How

A Looking back at all everything I'm doing, and I'm like, I don't think I would be high on the list as a hire to to Cho Thompson. There's definitely better designers out there than me. You've mentioned that you have such an entrepreneurial background. It would be interesting how To know, you know, what are what are some of the biggest takeaways that you wish you knew for all the younger how architects or are those looking to start their own practice. You know, what are some of the biggest things that you wish you knew before you jumped into this?

D How Architects in school learn a very limited vision of what architecture is. I don't think school needs to teach you everything, but I really appreciated my professional practice courses, my real estate development courses. So I do think it's important if you're still in school to look not just in your architecture curriculum, but in other departments or skills that you might need for 1 for if you wanna be a developer, if you wanna be you own your own boutique architecture firm, thinking about what the skill set to collect while you can is. You know, I think it's lucky Christina and I really enjoy spreadsheets, and we really enjoy, project management. Because a lot of what we do I think I made a how chart once that was, like, you know, I spend, like, 40% of my time just sending emails, and, like, 20% do I get to design. And the bigger our firm grows, how The more we have to delegate design out through the staff, and we have to take on more managerial and more logistical tasks. So I think that's an important thing to note, if you're thinking about going on the path, having your own firm, that it's not all, you know, sitting in alone, drawing on trace paper. There's a lot of project management skills that you have to have.

D The great thing about architecture is it's a long career. I feel like in other how there's age bias, or there's a sense you you're only really good when you're in your thirties. But I think in architecture, you get better and better as you go, and how great architects can be in their are in their eighties, and so I think it's exciting to think that we have a long path ahead of us, and we're gonna be learning more and developing more expertise as we go.

C How Yeah. Actually, Ming, your last comment made me think of when I was at the Monterey Design Conference. All the emerging architect winners were well over 40, I think. How And they were like, I'm emerging? I've been doing this for, like, 25 years. But, yeah, actually that excites me. How because, you know, like, we can just keep learning and learning and learning and keep doing this. Another thing that came to mind Is that you don't need to feel like you need to stay in your lane, and you never know you never know unless you try. So I think that's what's helped us grow our reach, our our our suite of services, because We did more or less start as a traditional architecture firm with the ambition of wanting to expand those services, and We just asked if we could do the graphics, or we had personal projects that we could show to how Convince them to let us take on more scope.

C And I feel like it is a trend, with our projects that we the scope does creep. We we are able to take on more scope on an ad service basis, that is, because we just Jump in there and start engaging in conversations beyond our assigned scope. And that I think that relates to what Ming was saying, how Being someone who can engage in these different diverse conversations kinda starts convincing clients that you can take on more. And using personal projects or maybe even pro bono projects where they might be more willing to give you more scope because it's on a pro bono basis. How Building your portfolio in that way to leverage and and be able to convince clients to have you take on graphics or branding or strategy.

A I think that's really important, though, especially within architecture practice and an architectural culture. I talk to a lot of people who are like, oh, I can't pursue that job because I don't have enough experience, or I've only been at the firm Not even a year. What do I have to offer? I don't I don't have a a voice. I think we often forget that, You know, even if we're fresh out of college, we kind of have a lifetime of experience and abilities that we can begin to talk about and and tell people how about our capabilities and kind of and create our own seat at the table, rather than being you know, waiting for the time when I have when I have all the credentials I need and all the skills I need. So I think that's a really important point, especially especially within this profession.

B You know, Evelyn and I are just really at the beginning of our own entrepreneurial journey, and we're starting to really dive into that. And so it was exciting to think about coming onto this call with 4 women who are all going through this process of figuring out what entrepreneurship and architecture looks like. So I'm interested if you guys can share any words of wisdom for new or aspiring entrepreneurs before we close the conversation.

D I guess Christina Christina's last point was really good, I think she said, about you don't know until you try. I would also say that You should proceed forward with confidence and with hope, but also with some knowledge. And so I think You need to kind of leap into things with a great sense of, like, naive hope, as I mentioned earlier, but I think you also need to do your homework And make sure that you know what you're doing in terms of starting a business. You know what your goals are. I think it's very important to have a mission before you start. I know how Some architects who started their firms not really sure why they're starting their own firm, and years later kind of look back and say, well, where am I going? Like, where how do I steer the ship if I don't know what the goal is. So I think having a mission is very important. And I think knowing that there are resources out there and people that want to help you as you set up your own firm.

D Architects love to talk about their own careers and tell you their stories, and so I think it's great to reach out to people whose careers inspire you and see if you can learn from them, and then really tap into the resources in your community to help you to help you launch your launch your own project.

C Yeah. I guess I also wanted to say how Entrepreneurship is not for the faint hearted. Like, I I actually have heard some people wanna do it because they're like, I'm gonna have A baby. I think I'll start my own company just because they think it might be easier. I mean, I suppose it's easier in some respects and that how You kind of are steering your own boat now, or you might have a more flexible schedule, but We certainly don't work less hours. We just work at them when we want to or not always when we want to. You know, there's a lot of late nights, especially right now. We have limited childcare, so I'll be sending a lot of emails at 2 AM.

C But, Aside from that, I think as Ming touched upon, Ming and I started this company with a business model. We had typed up a how multipage document about where we saw ourselves in a couple years, 5 years, 10 years, and I was elated to see that we had actually hit some of those goals that we had set for ourselves early on. We also have a profit and loss model that we how a spreadsheet that we keep updated, constantly looking forward 3 to 6 months and making sure we're still okay. So there's a lot of that less glamorous stuff going on behind the scenes for sure.

B Well, Evelyn, I think that was a really meaningful episode for both of us to be able to bring on 2 female founders and talk about entrepreneurship and the process of creating a business and all the things that how to go behind the scenes in terms of thinking about business creation.

A Yeah. It was it was interesting to hear their back how Stories. Right? Like, they both seem to come from very entrepreneurial families, so it was interesting to see that that also how has driven them in their adult life too. I I would say that my how My parents were hard workers. I wouldn't necessarily label them as entrepreneurs.

B Oh, actually, my dad is an entrepreneur, and he I don't know if I've ever told you that. He has, been a big for why I've been so interested in going down that path.

A No. Actually, I didn't know that. Mhmm.

B And I also think, They they talked about having a good life partner in the episode. That seemed like a really, poignant part of the discussion just thinking about, you know, not only our family, but our you know, the people that we choose to create a family with become a really integral real part of this process

A of trying to become an entrepreneur. And I I don't want to isolate any of our how non female listeners, but I also just, you know, being being women, being in this, profession, how Trying to do something new and something different. Like, I would not be able to engage in the AIA in the practice of architecture how in anything outside of my career or as wholeheartedly in my career itself how If it weren't for the support of my husband, Ryan, so I'm incredibly thankful for that and how Glad I had the foresight to make that decision, but I don't it was not on my, like, checklist of things a life partner how needed to have, actually, if I think about it.

B Yeah. I think I I realized now after being married, like, how important that is on the, qualifications list for a potential partner. But it it actually does, matter a lot, and it really makes a difference in the process how trying to, like, as you say, be very intentional about carving out this path for yourself and your career in a very ambitious way. I mean, I I think that it it really does matter. So one of the things that I wanted to follow up with you on is this idea of multi multidisciplinary firms. Because I know we've had a lot of discussion offline about this, and I thought our listeners would benefit by hearing you talk more about what does it mean to be multidisciplinary.

A How Right. And I'm I'm gonna be fair here. You know, a lot of people have a different notion of what it means to be multidisciplinary. I personally how openly admit. I roll my eyes a little bit when a firm says they're multidisciplinary and they say, how We do schools. We do health care. We're in hospitality. We do commercial build outs.

A For me, you're essentially offering the same services in different verticals. So my definition of multidisciplinary how And what I think actually makes for a much stronger firm if their multidisciplinary stack is a little bit different. But they're how Actually providing different services to the same client or different services to different clients. How But it's the notion that you could actually provide a greater suite of services to the same client, which means how That, you know, it's not you're not just doing the architecture. When we all talk about architects wanting to be that number one how Consultant, that that our clients pick up as thought leaders to talk through business ideas, strategies. And I think it's really having the breadth of services and realizing that architects do much more than how Designing a building after you've raised the money for capital funds. So all the time I hear people say, I wanna be the trusted adviser how my client. I wanna be the 1st person that they pick up the phone with when they have any type of problem, not just a building problem.

A And by diversifying your services, by showing value in other ways, how Then you actually become that trusted adviser, and it's much easier for your client to make those transitions. So for me, multidisciplinary how really boils down to a variety of different services offer service offerings, not necessarily a variety of different market protocols.

B Right. And I think, for example, with Christina and Ming, first of all, what stands out is that they both have backgrounds in other fields. So that that was really powerful and realizing that that may have informed their decision to diversify their our portfolio offering. And I know Ming is really talented in graphic design. And so you can see when you look at the website that the graphics piece really does show up. So I think that's a really clear example of how, you know, they offer the architectural piece, but they Also offer the graphic design piece. So when I was talking to our friend Jen who works there, what she was saying is she really likes working there because They will take a project that's, you know, as large as a building and then go down in scale to something that's, really small and everything in between. And it really allows for that flexibility to design different elements at a variety of scales.

B Absolutely.

A You know? And multidisciplinary how doesn't necessarily mean strategy services, whereas which is where I tend to fall. Right? And there will be those people that argue that I am no longer an architect. So you can absolutely have, like, a a stratification of services that how Still very strongly hold true to design. I would say that Cho Thompson does both strategy and design very well. How The other interesting thing, and, you know, and Jen, as a part of their firm, is an attribute to this, is that they hire multidisciplinary staff. Right? That that their staff tend to do a lot of creative things outside of their work. You know, Jen happens to sew her own clothes. So I think their ability to be agile and to provide all of those services how Stems from the diversity of backgrounds of the people that they bring on and and the people that They have joined their firm.

B So let's talk about this idea. They actually have a shop for their business. They have it's a part of their businesses. They'll sell really cool products on their online business. So, you know, we've talked in previous episodes about the idea of having a brick and mortar paired with the business to kind of welcome clients and or people off the how to treat to learn more about your services. What are your thoughts on

A that idea? They've been really intentional about how they've set up how They're brick and mortar. Right? They've decided that it should be on the 1st floor, and there's definitely the firms in Oakland that you walk by, how You know, and you just see old, actually, blueprints up in the window or just old plans. But they're they're inviting the community into to their design studio, into their design space. You know, the pre COVID and and post COVID, the plan is to have events there, to really curate an entire conversation, a neighborhood community conversation around the design community. And I I think when you talk about kind of a very passive way about elevating not only what you're passionate about, but how But networking and integrating the firm into the community fabric, I think they've taken it to, another level, but they've been very conscientious about how they've gone about and done that.

B And I guess, you know, the number one thing that I I found really valuable about this episode was that they were talking about this idea that, business as usual does not work anymore. And for me, that's really powerful. I think that is the reality of where we're at right now with, so much change in 2020. How We knew Evelyn in 2019 and before when we were talking about growing this business that, how practices are changing. I mean, it's been a huge theme in our podcast, but I think 2020 has proven that really, how truly we have to rethink the way we're doing things to work in a new era of the way the world's gonna work going forward. Yeah.

A It's I've so I've seen a lot of firms struggle during this time, and rightfully so, I think It's an unusual time. We are in the midst of a global pandemic. I'm in Northern California where we how Actually, to be honest, the smoke has been so bad here that we've started wearing masks in the house. I've been taking Ibuprofen to save off headaches. So I I feel for all those who've actually been evacuated during these fires right now. I definitely my me and my family have definitely not how borne the brunt of it. But the interesting thing trying to get back to our topic back on topic here with Joe Thompson is that, you know, I've I've heard firms say, you know, what do we need to do during this time to survive? You know? And they've They've diversified their services to offer to give their clients something, to offer during this time. I've heard firms, even large firms, really struggle with, you know, what do we do with interns, how do we continue to grow the future of the profession at a time like this.

A And I feel like they've leveraged their connections, especially with Yale, with Ming more so than ever right now. They're engaged with the school community more more than ever. They actually brought on multiple how Interns and for all intents and purposes, we are talking about a small firm that is bicoastal how That is making it work during this time, and I I I feel like there's still those stories out there. And, by the way, their core how Business also is not necessarily high end residential because I I do feel that that market, oddly enough, hasn't suffered as much as other markets. So I feel like they're they're operating in what is usually a diff a difficult market. They, they've expanded their services to remain relevant to client. They've done it at a scale which can be replicable to the other smaller entrepreneurs out there. So there is a way to make it work through all of this.

A You just have to position yourself how the right way, and you have to not not look at business as usual. Right? What is what is the new way of doing business? Mhmm. And

B I think our Closing thought for this episode is to figure out what talents you have in house and pivot towards, testing those ideas and seeing if how it can work for you.

A Yeah. This is this is something that I've been you know, everybody has been asking, how do we innovate around now. And I think, you know, architects and people with architectural training have an incredible how Creative spirit. And now more so than any other time is a great opportunity to, how Unlock some of the hidden talents that your staff may not or haven't had an opportunity to share with the office and see if there is an opportunity, to create something new out of it. Thanks for listening, and we will see you all next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice disruptive.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network.

A How You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. If you enjoy the show I want to hear more content like this. You can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us how know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening, and see you next