Organizational Design, Process, and Innovation

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Welcome back how to practice disruptive. Janine, I'm gonna let you take the lead on this episode a little bit more because you are working directly with, how the firm and actually our our next guest. Why don't you tell us what made you so excited to have them as a client and a little bit about what you hope our listeners can learn from them.

B I'm really excited today because I've asked Kieran Timberlake to join us on the show, and, specifically, I asked Andrew Cronin, who's a principal there, to help me dive a little bit deeper into some of my research that I've been doing on the topic of mentorship. So I first met Andrew earlier this year and was able to collaborate with him in his office on their mentorship our program. They basically launched a mentorship program, about a year and a half ago, and we were looking at how we could elevate what they were already doing. And when he asked me to join them, it really was a big honor, and I wanted to I really wanted to give them my best work, so it challenged me to think about how could I present mentorship in a fresh way, and so I started thinking about what new models of mentorship look like in our industry beyond just the historic model of a one to one relationship, and Given that they're a very forward thinking firm, I wanted to also create something for them that was very aligned with who they are as a studio. I ended up designing a 2 day workshop for them that allowed us space to start thinking and talking about the mentorship experience there, looking at the mentor experience and the mentee experience, and together we kind of approached it like it was a design conversation.

A How KT is well known for their publications. Probably most recognized is Refabricating Architecture. They argued for reevaluating and updating the basic design and construction methods of the industry. They also won the AIA firm award in 2015 and have been leaders in the green building design movement, including winning COTE top Penn Awards and have a widely published portfolio of projects. 2 of the most notable ones are the US Embassy in London, which is a lead platinum project completed in 2017 that has a beautiful exterior envelope designed to play an important role in the energy performance of the building how and the cellophane house that sat adjacent to MoMA in New York for a while, and it was a prototype of sorts looking at integrated assemblies, how Prefabrication and emerging technology and building envelope design. What can you tell us, Janine, in working with them how that others may not know about the firm.

B Well, in my consulting work, I get to see the internal operations of firms, and I get to see how firms think about designing their teams, the way their processes are working, and overall how the studio culture comes together. Her, and I found their attention to these issues pretty impressive because they definitely are putting emphasis behind how these organizational systems work within the firm's operations. And I found that extremely fascinating because I don't know that there are a lot of firms that do that as intentionally as Karen Timberlake does. And they use design thinking how to really dive deep and thoughtfully into the consideration of the administrative and procedural side that supports the development of these really iconic amazing projects that they end up creating. So, essentially, they're thinking about how the firm's operation support and product of the built environment, including how the teams operate, how projects are developed, even down to how they mentor their staff, and ultimately, that how supports the exceptional outcomes they're able to achieve. And I hope Andrew will be able to share more about that today as well as help me talk more about the mentorship element that I've been working on. So I guess, Evelyn, I'll hand it over to you to read his bio. How Andrew Conan takes

A a holistic approach to design practice. As a principal at Cairn Timberlake, he remains deeply connected to digital design, prototyping, how and systems integration and engages project teams across the office by coleading Kieran Timberlake's BIM practices group how and works to spread lessons across the firm through Kieran Timberlake's regular weekly knowledge sharing forums. Andrew supports KT's pursuit how of the 2030 challenge and his role in the beyond 2030 working group and leads KT's internal mentorship program. He is also a jury critic and adjunct how Faculty member at the Antoinette Westfall College of Media Arts and Design at Drexel University. Let's cut to the interview.

B Give us a little bit more about your background, maybe some of the projects you're doing, and and your role at KT.

C Sure. Yeah. I'm, how Principal at Kieran Timberlake. We're an architecture firm, in Philadelphia, but we do a lot more than architectural projects. How My role is on the architectural side, and I have been working, largely with university clients, although we're in an office that, really how itself on not having a particular focus for any really 1 individual on the architecture side. So I have worked with a number of different kinds of clients and project types, from student residential to, a religious institution, addition, renovation here in Philly. One of the things that we also are really known for is sort of off-site fabrication, and I've worked, on one particular house in Northern California that was how Built off-site in San Jose and shipped up into the woods in Mendocino County. That was a real joy and treat to work on.

C And, a a number of other smaller projects how in and around the office, both kind of internally to the firm and, smaller studies and things for other clients.

A I didn't realize that you have had such, how an extended tenure at KT, so I'm excited to explore that a little bit more. But I also wanted you know, for those how A lot of architects, when they look at the work of KT, I think it's very they're very familiar with the architecture work, and you alluded to KT doing more and architecture. So can you just tell our listeners a little bit more about what that MORE is?

C So the the MORE is, how It it's an integrated practice that has you know, we you've described it as the sort of 3 legs of the stool. There's the there's the architectural side, but then we also have a communications group and a research group how group that are both really integrated into the practice. And most folks know probably more about or have heard about the research group, which is a It's a series of individuals. It it flexes in size, but it's, you know, between sort of 12 to 15 folks at the moment. How They represent a variety of different backgrounds, not all of them necessarily architectural related, and approach design problems and thinking through a different lens that really actually helps shape the rest of the the way the rest of us approach design problems too. How So the research group, it's identifiable as a core group of folks, but actually in practice, they're completely integrated into the rest of the functions of the office. So how There are members of the research group that flowed in and out of project teams, and they're often working on a lot of the same things that the architecture team is working on. Although they're providing some really deep insight into how you would go about a particular workflow that really shapes and helps the team be more effective in the time that they spend on asking questions and trying to find answers.

C And then the communications group, it's stitched into the teams as well, but also works how to broadcast out a message from KT to the larger community and focuses on publications, the website, reaching out to find opportunities for new projects, but also for new speaking engagements and and sometimes educational opportunities for other folks. How So there's a really broad lens, that we use, and I think the one of the nice things is that when we talk about projects, how Kieran Trumbullake, there's no distinction in project between, something that their RG is working on exclusively or the communications group or the architecture group. How All of the projects are projects, and I think they often are staffed by people from all of those areas so that it's a a really how Broad, interdisciplinary workflow.

B That's a good point. And maybe you might wanna mention, like, the the way that the teams Haparate is a little bit different than a traditional architectural practice might structure a team.

C It's true, how In in a few different ways, I guess. I sort of mentioned earlier that we like we don't like to have anyone, in too tight of a role. Particularly on the architectural side, it's actually most common that if you're coming off of one type of project, you're not going right on to the another project of that same type. How And and that's intentional as a way of keeping people on their toes and thinking with fresh eyes about each type of project and possibility how So that instead of repeating the same thing that you did on the last project and refining it, it's more of a process of sort of somebody new with a new set of eyes coming in, how Gathering up all of the things that we've done before to understand kind of the background information, but then interrogating that in a way that's different from how you would do it if you were doing the same project over again. And that that tends to be a really fruitful way of working. And our the way that we staff teams, how It varies quite a bit by the size of the project, but there are 2 partners that are involved in every team, which is something that is maybe a little bit unique to how other firms might work. At KT, it's really intentionally mixed so that 2 partners work together. But at any one time, each partner is working with a series of other partners, and how There's no sort of, clan structure to how the the the tree works, and every everybody can be plugged in or out from any any point in the tree how and and move around to a different group.

C You know, working styles and management styles are very different, and it gives people an exposure to lots of different types of folks. And how In some ways, that can be testing if you like to work in a particular style and then you have to adapt yourself to another team structure or management style. But at the same time, that also keeps you nimble and agile and growing as a person and being flexible, which is really important part of architecture in general.

A That's really interesting. I I think a lot of people actually leave firms because they sometimes get pigeonholed into working on 1 project how type or under one principle, and there's just not a direct there's just, like, a a conflict in personalities how sometimes and not the opportunity to even do a lateral movement and affirm to gain different types of experiences.

C How I mean, we'll find that they're often people, especially people who are coming into the office and have only been there for 1 project or or how Not even a whole project. Really need exposure to lots of different voices and styles in order to feel comfortable, like, they can actually, operate in the office and how feel like they're grounded in a way that, they're actually part of KT and not just certain someone who works there comes in to punch the clock. How So we found that that's been a really productive and fruitful way to manage teams. It does mean that you're kind of how Always on, you know, I sort of describe it as always every time I start something, feeling like a complete imbecile because I how forgotten everything. I feel like I've forgotten everything that I knew from all the my past, experience and work, and you have to look at it with fresh eyes every time. How To some people, that's really invigorating, and to others, it can be really kind of draining and challenging. So there is a bit of self selection that happens, and I won't say that nobody ever gets vision hold because, how It does happen, but we make a real concerted effort to make sure that if somebody has been in a role for, you know, a year working with the same person how and kind of in the same type of role that there's a real effort to get that person to do something completely different. And it's not always possible given project circumstances, but It is something that we track and try to really keep moving.

A I wanna, allow Janine, because she's really excited, to dig deeper into the the mentorship how program and leadership development. But I also wanted to acknowledge that Karen Timberlake, was named one of the most innovative companies in 2020 by Fast company. I I believe that's not the 1st time you've made that list either. So if you could tell us a little bit more about Why you think that is, how you guys work on innovation within your company, and even a little bit more about the the products that have come out, from from a technology side.

C Sure. Well, you know, underpinning the whole, how office is this idea of plan, do, monitor, learn cycle that we talk about a lot with all of our projects. So how You start by making a plan about what you would like it to do. You execute that plan, and then you evaluate it to see whether it's doing what you wanted how to do or if it's achieving all the goals that you need to achieve. And if it isn't, then you make some, adjustments and you do the same thing again. And you can do that cycle within projects as you're going with simulation, but you can also do that over a much longer timeline and from project project and capturing the information that you thought you were addressing, evaluating whether you did, and then rolling that forward into future work. And how That has been just the way KT works, and operates on pretty much every level. It influences everything.

C How the way the business office runs. It influences the way that, we go after projects from the beginnings, like what types of clients we're looking to join up with and to go for. It also it has to do with sort of the types of work that we'll we'll we'll see an opportunity that that arise on that came out of a project, But there wasn't an immediate next step for that, really in interesting thing, and so it turns into its own projects at that point and then becomes something that can, how We can dedicate time and resources to developing further. And I think a lot of the things like Tali and Roast, the soft on the software side of the office have been products where we recognize that there's a a need for something that doesn't exist. We've developed a version of it to work how internally for something that we're doing. But then we can also see that with a few tweaks, it could easily become something on its own, that that has its own value and can help how The entire community of architects bring up the quality of work. And, actually, in the case of Roast, it's not just architecture. It could really, really be applied to how broadly to anything.

C Roast, for those that don't know, is is monitoring and and management. Well, we use it mostly to, so if If, you followed Karen Timberlake's, trajectory over the past few years, our office in in, Northern Liberties was an old bottling plant. How And when we moved in, we ran a test on ourselves, where we we tried to live in Philadelphia with no air conditioning how and only using passive strategies and sailing the thermal ship, if you will, through the really, like, really hot and humid summers how Because it's a strategy that we often recommend to clients, particularly if we're working in California, where the climate is benign enough that you can really pull this off, how We took the challenge on ourselves and said, well, if we can do it in Philadelphia, then you can do it pretty much any climate zone if you can get through the summer. How Hot, humid, sticky in Philadelphia. Doesn't really cool off at night. And so we made a plan to to pursue this. And then how As a way of tracking how we were doing, so there's a hardware side to this of of equipment and sensors and monitoring, but then there was also a software side on people side of man of how people are doing and to the are they adjusting what you're wearing? Are you feeling comfortable at your desk? Is how's the airflow? How's the air quality? How's the temperature, what's the sound like around you. And after several different iterations, that turned into, like, a really robust survey tool how that had ways of tagging, responses to different geographic locations on plans, linking it to different people and users, and how allowed us to really kind of develop a map of the office about where there are zones that are working well and where there are zones that aren't and also kind of align folks who had different preferences how with different zones depending on you know, like, in the winter, this spot over here is really warm because that's where the duct flows under the floor from below.

C How And these people are always cold no matter where they sit, so we can maybe arrange the team so that more folks from that group are sitting over in the warm zone how other teams can be in other sections. So that just like that little exercise on ourselves made us understand how how There wasn't a real tool that you could use to track spatial location, temperature, and comfort feedback over time in a way that was, like, how Good for post occupancy survey, essentially. And so the this Roast tool came out of that and and is now available as a how A product anybody can use, but it is something that you know, it's one of the things that, like, if you if you take a step back and think for a second about how The thing I'm doing right now is interesting and helpful to this project. Is there also use utility to this beyond what I'm doing? And usually, there's a point in every project where we we do that. We how kinda, like, pause for a second and think, is this worth taking to the next step? Should this become its own thing? And I think that's that fundamental how Act is one of the reasons that I think we'd find opportunities like this at KT to, you know, branch out from typical product deliverables how and, have more innovative approaches to a couple things.

A Yeah. I think it's it's surprising how such a small Question, like, inserted into a process kinda spurs along that that innovation.

C Yeah. It's really just about taking the time, how Being a little self reflective and taking a minute to think about it. But just taking the the time to think about it also will influence the way that you approach the problem, I think.

A Yeah. That's really interesting to me that this has really all been codified into the project process. I think when a lot of firms talk about Their desire to be more innovative, especially in the recent years pre COVID, you know, they were running they had so much in the pipeline. They were running so fast. We're just like we're just trying to do what we can right now with the staff we have, and they don't create that space. And purely by creating that space, I think, is really unique to your process. But the fact that it's how so codified and that you use that knowledge across the firm is really interesting to me.

C Yeah. I think you have to commit to it. And that's one way that's the way that we found that works for how is to build it into the process so that you're forced to commit to doing it every phase change.

B Yeah. I agree with Evelyn. I think Most of the time, I've seen architects be very reactionary. Like and they they're prone to looking at, you know, emergencies and putting out fires and that kind of mentality of reacting. But what I saw when I started working with Karen Timberlake is that you guys our planners. And so you're looking out, you know, like, you're driving a car, you're looking way down the road trying to go where you want to go intentionally. And I would like you to kind of share maybe from the perspective of the firm and probably the founders especially, what the value is in being, intentional to slow down enough to plan and look ahead.

C How So I think you you can plan quite a bit, but you also have to remain, nimble to the changes and bumps in the road as you go. So how So I think we try to do both things. And one of the things that is useful to slowing down and is that that it it allows other voices that how would otherwise just be swept away to actually be there and, have a chance to articulate how a point that you might not have fully appreciated ever before in your career, but it is actually really important on this project. How And if you're just blazing ahead, you can always say you want to be innovative, but you really actually need to slow it down to figure out what are the things that you're doing that are actually worth how Pursuing further and what are the where is the real value in in in, the solutions you're coming up with. So I think that that's always been, how A a model that's come out of the firm. You know, James and Steve work in different ways, but I think it's the combination of their 2 design personalities how that results in a process where there is a lot of value in kind of looking ahead to figure out what some ideas might be, how Coming up with some strategies that are they're more sort of process strategies for how you would go about designing something in a certain way how And then following those paths for a little while to come to what the solutions the resultant solutions would be. Then you have a conversation about, are these working? Are they are are there steps along the way that are really interesting, but maybe the immediate result of that one thing is not great yet? How It's never a process where there's a, someone has a preconceived notion of what the end result will look like, and we try to figure out how to make it look that way as easily as quickly as possible. There's this interplay back and forth, and the way that we approach design is more about how Developing approaches, evaluating the merits of each approach along the way, and then adjusting, combining, hybridizing to find, eventually what turns out to be a consensus design concept for a for a project.

C I mean, I think we just take this idea of what is design and extend it to a lot of different realms and ways of approaching. So We're designing the process as much as we're designing the building as much as we're designing the staircase.

A It's it's act you know, design thinking applied to The firm, which is really interesting because I hear a lot of architects talk about, oh, you know, the business the business world is how all abuzz about design thinking, but rarely ever are they themselves applying it to their own business model. So that's That's really interesting.

C And it it helps so we've also the partnership has expanded in in the past few years. So how 2015, I think there were a series of new partners came on board, all from within the firm. So there there are folks that have have worked through this process all the way through. But I think when you approach a problem in this manner, it allows, lots of voices to come in to to work. And then it also how It allows you to kind of to have a leadership structure that is really based more on making sure that we're asking the right questions and getting to the right answers as how opposed to saying, I like that one. It's more that we've come to the process, and everybody together has asked all these questions. They've all been evaluated. How Yes.

C People need to make decisions at some point if there's things that are equal. But at that point, you're not making a decision just based on what it looks like. You're making a decision with all of this other underlying information that's come along with the process.

A And I think that's also a really great way to give. It sounds like you're giving individuals at all levels of the firm an opportunity to participate and have a voice.

C Yeah. How When this is really tick clicking along well, everybody will look at the end result and say, I had a part in that. Like, the I can see my little a piece of this, even though this wasn't my idea to begin with. It's actually really hard to track back. Like, you get to the end, and you're like, whose idea was this? Because it isn't any 1 person's idea. How It's a combination of different things, and usually, everybody has some little piece of it, and you can look at something and say see that something that you carried through the whole process. How And, you know, this is another concept that we talk about a lot, which is it's a difference between stewardship and ownership of design, and the we see ourselves as stewards of this process. And there is no 1 person that owns the design in the end.

C It's it's been carried along by everybody equally.

A Yeah. And I know Janine's dying to ask more questions, but I I think it's really important that you even give interns, in your example, the agency how To contribute at that level. Right? I was just talking to one of my colleagues who talked about his experiences and why he left architecture, and it always goes how Back to I was doing bathroom details for the last year. So so the fact that you not only have given the intern something, an an interesting piece of the work, but a voice in the process is incredibly unique to me.

C Yeah. You know, I don't know that architects ever get away from having to do bathroom details or door schedules, but I think it depends on how you, look at it and whether you see that as the only thing that you're ever gonna do or you understand that there's lots of parts to a project and that everybody has to contribute on different levels. And, you know, how I think, most of our teams try to lead by example in this way so that it's not like the same person gets stuck with, the couple things that, you know, are kind of how The drudgery parts of got just getting it done and documented, and we share that responsibility amongst the team on on multiple levels too. So it's not it's not like it's, You know, all the bathroom details get done by 1 person, and no one else looks at it. Actually, partners care quite a bit about bathroom details too so that we will actually have pin up design reviews about bathroom details just to look at how different things are laying out. And some of them, of course, you don't have to review every kind of, like, standard mounting height, but how It is important to get, like, the feeling of the space regardless of which space you're talking about in concert with the rest of the design of space of the building so that it all kind of fits, like, as it's 1 vocabulary that's being used. So even something as mundane as that gets, pinned up on the wall or shared up in this case, shared via Teams meeting and marked up and discussed, with how

B That's a really good point. I think it's all in how you look at the assignment that you're given. You have an opportunity to learn from it even if it maybe at first doesn't seem like something you're interested in doing. There's an opportunity to how think about what you can get out of it. And I guess from here, I I just wanna pivot into this story because I think it's a really compelling one, Andrew, about your journey. And it starts a little bit with I guess it was back in 2018 that KT promoted you to principal, how and there was a group that were selected to go through that cohort of being elevated into leadership, and I think that started this conversation for you starting to move into talking about mentorship at the firm. So I wanted to give you a chance to talk about the process of that promotion, and then also your involvement with creating the mentorship program at KT.

C Sure. The timing of those 2 things did definitely align. So how Up until 2015, Karen Timberlake had been growing and I think got up around 80 folks or so, I think I said at one point. How There wasn't necessarily a, a number that we were trying to get to or grow to, but the partners, I think, really wanted to be able to be at a scale where we could take on several different large projects at the same time, but we didn't wanna be so large that partners were out of the loop of all the projects that were going on. So what happened is we grew organically for a little bit to try to figure out what the right level was. And I think at one point, we're up to around a 130, which, started to feel like it was just a different ballgame for the type of office that it was. How And it was right around that time that the 2018 leadership structure change happened. And the 2018 was a year when there was kind of a really, how thoughtful approach to reorganization of how the office was going to work.

C And it had grown, you know, from a really small firm how and using kind of small firm principles for how you manage and grow people within the office and promote folks. How And then as it got to be over a100, we started to realize that, you know, you needed some more structure around some of these things in order to how Create an environment that everybody felt like they were, they knew the rules of the road and could engage in the office. It's much easier to do that in a small firm when you can just how Sort of talk to the partners whenever you want about if there's some confusion about something, you just, you know, hey. How's it going? Can I ask you this question? And it's not so hard. How When you're, an office of a 130 and the partners are all over the world doing different things and often not together in the same place, it's really challenging to to do that. So there was a real desire at that point to create another layer of structure. So there's always been some there's been partners and then there's been some other how group that's been part of the management team. So for a while, it was, there was an associates group, the and the structures have evolved in with each of the strategic plans.

C How In 2018, it turned into the the principles, which was an idea that had existed at KT previously but hadn't in the past 5 years or so, how Well, it was sort of reinstituted as a thing. So there were partners and principals and associates that were the folks that were kind of representing the leadership structure. How The idea being that partners were pairing up together with a principal to work on a project, and then the principal would have several different projects, how they're overseeing. And then on each team, there would be an associate that is sort of the main contact person for that team. They're the day to day, everything how That and they stay with that project from kind of beginning to end with the principals also staying with it, but sort of at a at a different level of how to check-in and and, kinda oversight and then partners also staying with it, but again, just less time. And so this model, it was a way to address how how how to run the firm at a larger scale. And that was the management structure of it, but then there was also clear ideas about how research folks plug into that structure and how communications team also overlays. And in a diagram sense, it was super clear, and people could really see how how We we would work and how we want how teams would wanna operate.

C Now architecture doesn't always follow these neat patterns of, like, You're always doing a building of this size with this client group, and they have this, construction manager who operates in this way. And inevitably, you end up with, like, All kinds of hybrid versions of that depending on the project scale and and, schedule is a big driver. How The complexity of the client group is a huge driver and how many different layers there are on the client side. So our shifts to this partner principal associate, how Structure was mainly a way to kind of, give large clients an a clear chart about who folks should how pair up with on our team to figure out, the the right communication strategies. And I think that that ended up in the abstract working well, how But it just felt to a lot of people, like, the partners were very busy and didn't really have time for their small questions about how do I get I I feel uncomfortable in this situation. I'm not quite sure what I should do. How So as a way of breaking down some of that, mentorship before 2018, it it existed in name. It was more like a Sherpa program for when people start at the office, and you get somebody who's been at the office who's sort of at a similar level to you maybe a maybe a couple couple years on in their career, but not very far on, and that has been at the office for a little bit longer so that they have some knowledge of how The workings of KT and where to go to look for this thing, and here's how this copier works.

C And if you real if you really wanna know how to do waterproofing details, you have to go talk to these 2 how people over here or if you need this other thing, you know, go down. It's down in this area. And then that person was, kind of a contact, how And they would introduce the folk the per the new person around the office, maybe connect them with, like, the softball team or the soccer team or how some other extracurricular thing or get them set up with the ARE study group if they were in the midst of pursuing, licensure. And and it it it was it was effective in that way, and I think we would occasionally have gatherings where all of the people who were paired up with their mentor at the time would get together for a happy hour every so often. What it did really well was get people on the ground, established at KT when they arrived, But it did not really address anything about sort of as you grow at KT, moving into new roles and stepping into new responsibilities, how to provide support for folks in that case. And many people are able to just navigate their way to get their questions answered, But not everybody feels that way, and especially in architecture where a lot of times there's a real desire to feel like how You have to act like you know it, the fake it till you make it strategy, which is a a it is an approach. Right? So it's not like it's a bad approach, but It's one that not everybody is comfortable with, and it is kind of it can be detrimental if you're faking it in a way that is problematic or not inclusive. How So the evolution of the mentorship program, we saw it was it was going on.

C We formed a little committee about mentorship, how And I was part of it with a few other folks. And we took a little, step back to say, what should mentorship look like in a firm of this size? Well, what's going on out there in the, the rest of the world, and we did our own little background research and, literature search for, you know, how, corporate mentorship programs are have been described and are working in various other locations. And then we undertook a process to figure out what would a KT mentorship program really look like. And to do that, We started by, a series of interviews where we took a cross sectional swath of the office, and I think we had identified how 40 different folks that we wanted to talk to, and we set up what were scheduled as, I think, half hour interviews, and not one of them finished how in under 90 minutes. By the time we were Scott started talking, people were really interested in just wanting to relay their experiences, and I think we were we were trying to ask to start conversations and then listen to what people had to say. So we were recognizing that, you know, as the firm was growing, there were a number of folks who were feeling uncomfortable with, being able to connect to its firm leadership. And we wanted to figure out how to break those barriers down, but we didn't wanna just force something on folks. And so it had to be how something that that emerged kinda organically from the needs of the office.

C We didn't end up interviewing 40 people. I think we ended up with, about 18 Interviews, that were that covered a really wide range of folks who had been at KT for a long time, who had been there, for several years and are kind of in the middle of their career, and folks who had just arrived. And we were asking all kinds of questions about, like, what did you expect and how your how are your expectations how Established before you arrived at KT, what were you looking at from the or who are you talking to, and how did you form your opinion of what you thought it would be like before you got here? Did it match? How Did the actual did the result when you got here, did it match what you thought it was going to? And then as you were if you were someone who'd been at the office longer, you know, how have you been able to get advice and support as you've moved up in your career or moved along in your career at the office. So we we recorded all of this stuff in narrative form, and there started to be a lot of convergence on some topics. And so So what we did was formed up a survey that was based on all of these responses, and it asked folks to, the whole office to go through and how reacts to questions that we had put together, rank things in different orders in order to figure out, were the things that we were hearing how just representative of a couple people who we happen to interview, or were they broadly held ideas that the rest of the office felt like were also really important? So rolled all that stuff into an inter into a, a survey and aggregated all the results from the whole office, how And that was a that became sort of the foundational document that we used with the partner group to establish the mentorship program. And so what we came to understand was that there was there are a couple missing levels. So professional development as a larger topic how was something that we hadn't really addressed, yet, and that was a topic that many folks were interested in pursuing further how and getting more support and feedback about their own trajectories professionally at KT and and, you know, sometimes beyond KT if if there was something that how they wanted to do that, you know, which wasn't you weren't gonna find the opportunity. We feel like that there's many different roads available to you at KT, and a lot of it comes down to how Having conversations with the right folks to figure out how to head down the one that's best for you and everybody else.

C And how The mentorship program became this completely voluntary thing where people from the firm who would like to have a mentor how So you can talk about professional level questions, put together a list of folks who they thought would be good for them, how And we use that list I use that list to, develop a pool of mentors and then balanced out amongst the group how to try to manage the time commitment for everybody that if you identified a person that you thought would be a good fit for you, how I would sit down or spend a few minutes talking to that person to figure out how much time they had and what different topics they were interested in mentoring folks on how and kind of created this little network diagram of here's a group of people that are interested in talking about getting into teaching, and architecture. Here's how Some of the folks that are are really interested in management style and techniques as you grow in your career and how to deal with how Different tactics that come up on teams and as you're stepping into a new role and and understanding how to to, operate effectively as a actively as a a manager in the middle of a structure, and other folks who are, you know, just wanting to have conversations about getting to know the partners a little bit better and just on a personal level. So we took all of this, and, there was a an an initial launch of this program. And, we had this big kind of, it was a funny how day in March where there's, like, a big launch party where everyone got the notice at the same time, about, like, who they'd been paired up with. And And as I said, it's a it's totally voluntary. So the you're not no one's required to participate, and that we felt was a really important how thing too because while it's we wanted to make sure that everybody had at least 1 person that they could talk to on this level, many folks in the office how didn't feel comfortable tapping 1 person, and they would they especially if it is someone who'd been around at the office for a while, how Already had a a really strong network of ventures that they went to for different kinds of advice on different topics, and we didn't wanna break any of that. So how So we wanted to make sure that this that we were only trying to reinforce mentorship, culture that already existed and make it a little more obvious to folks that maybe felt like it, how They didn't quite know how to get into it and support the those sort of relationships without undermining things that had already how been established and we're working well in the 1st place. So, it it was a little bit of a fine dance balancing act to make sure that we had the right level of structure with the right level of, openness and flexibility.

C And I don't think we're quite there how Yeah. Even there's always a little bit of adapting that needs to happen, and it's really kind of a sliding scale for different people and depending on who you are and how much structure, makes sense for you. So we're still working to get that balance.

B I wanna give you a chance to share a little bit about the roundtables that you've been hosting as part of the mentorship program at KT. I think I think that that's actually a really interesting model that a lot of firms could learn from. So can you share maybe, how that works and who's usually involved in those conversations.

C Sure. The roundtable talks how are, where the mentor group gets together to talk as a body of folks about issues that are coming up. And it's not specifically about any individual, but it's more about general issues and approach and strategies and ways of engaging, different topics. And when you when you have a office mentorship program like this, it's really important that how clear about sort of the rules of engagement and what people can expect and both from the mentee side but also from the mentor side how and whether the mentor is responsible only to the the person they're mentoring, which is how it should be and we think it is. But there's always this because it's a a a sponsored program, there's always this little tension about, like, does the mentor need to represent the issues of the firm in how conversations with the with the person, with the mentee, or, is that not part of it at all? And that question, while easy to answer how And the abstract that well, obviously, you just you're representing the issues of the mentee. Often is there's some gray zones where it's it's not so clear, like, how to advise somebody in certain situations. So what we do is we use these roundtable meetings to kind of, daylight those topics and how figure out, like, how should you engage in this kind of conversation? Is it something that you should offer some advice in, or you Can you just listen to the the issue at that point, and are there any, steps that you as a mentor can take to how Alleviate some issue or to involve yourself in the in the resolution of something that's going on that needs to be resolved. And for the most part, The fundamental theory behind our program is that the mentor is there to help the mentee and help the mentee how solve their own problems and saw and make their own path as much as possible.

C Now that doesn't always work, how But I think the and I think some of the roundtable discussions are ways that we can identify topics that don't always fit so cleanly in that. But the ones that usually do how are you know, who is the ment the mentor responsible to, and is there a role in evaluating performance that's overlaid in this relationship, or is this really just specific to the mentee's professional development, not about their performance on the job at all? You know, the while the roundtable discussions are mainly focused along topics that have come up for the mentors, we also try to we do one every so often with, just mentees too. So I'll check-in every so often just to make sure that there aren't global issues with the program that need to be resolved at a a sort of program level and that if there are things coming up that are issues that are arising in an individual level or maybe a small group level, how that we can have a broader conversation about, you know, how to do things differently or shift focus or, you know, one of the topics that comes up a lot is whether how The mentor should be an advocate for the mentee, and there's a really there's a there's a line there that needs to be established on some level. Not that you would never be an advocate or always should be an advocate, but that there's a there's a line where At KT, we've come down more on the side of the mentor's job is to help the mentee advocate for themselves how and not to advocate on behalf of the of the mentee. 90% of the time, that works perfectly well, and I and it's and it's more about helping people understand how Steps they can take themselves, actions they can do to to further their own career without having someone intervene to do something, on their behalf.

B I think that's a really important skill set, and I think it's very insightful that you guys picked up on that being something that you need to teach younger professionals how to do. I I would certainly think that in some firms I've seen that it's not something that, there's awareness about, that it's the skill that particularly, like, if you're out of school, like, you don't know how to do in those 1st couple years. So it's good that you guys are showing them the way. I wanted to ask you, so now you've been in this role of running the mentorship program for over a year. What aspects from doing that and learning about mentorship at a deeper level are important in terms of running a design studio?

C The aspects that are important are that, not that everybody is a precious snowflake, but everybody reacts differently to advice. How And one of the things that's been really good, that's come out of this program is that the mentors have been gaining as much insight as the mentees how in terms of when you when you're in the role of mentor, you kind of need to put yourself into somebody else's shoes to see the problem through their eyes and listen to it as they're saying it. And that is a good step to force people to do how Because it's all too easy when you're managing a project to be focused on deliverables and getting stuff out the door and how Easily to sweep a lot of that other stuff away. It's just like, oh, that's unnecessary baggage to deal with. Whatever. Just get the work done. It'll be fine. And it has been one of the things that has helped everybody feel like more of a part of the team generally and part of the office generally, both from the side of men mentees feeling like they're being heard, how Mentors having to hear in a different way and listen and then understanding that you can't do this you can't you there's not a one size fits all strategy to these things.

C And looking, around more broadly allows better techniques and styles management styles to come out. How And it also, you know, provides for a lot of variety, which is which is another thing that's really important, I think, in a design culture is that you need to have a you need to have a supportive environment. I I mean, speaking from myself only. Right? Like, if I'm working on I need to feel comfortable and and supported to really how Go out on a limb. If I'm feeling that I'm being judged on everything I'm doing and and, like, if I make a wrong suggestion, people are gonna, like, laugh at me or how Show me the door right away for throwing something out there from way out of left field. I'm gonna not be so likely to come up with ideas like that. I'm gonna try to, like, how Stay on the pretty straight and narrow path. And I think that's one of the things that's kind of antithetical to the KT design approach is that how You should be informed, and you should be suggesting things that and, pursuing roads that are reasonable to pursue.

C How But the idea of, like, what is reasonable is really pretty broad. And so we ought to be able to use this structure to support people in a way to feel how Engaged and to feel like their ideas, even if they're kinda crazy at first, will have some support and that they are part of this team like everybody else. And If you're not feeling that way, then it's really difficult to innovate.

B That's a good point. So we have the opportunity to get to know each other because I came in and started helping you look at this mentorship program and explore how it was functioning and then even ways that it might be elevated. And the thing that I got out of it was just really it was fun because you guys were so willing to think about how could mentorship be different than the way that we're viewing it, and what are other firms doing. It really allowed for this conversation of exploring new models of mentorship in practice. And I think we had some fun conversations about thinking about, you know, the traditional one to 1 mentorship relationship, but also thinking about the changing nature of practice and how that might be influencing how mentorship is shifting. You know, you're hiring people at KT, you're managing projects, and you're keeping an eye on the studio culture and the health of your employees through the mentorship program. So I wanted to ask, How do you think those dynamics of practice shifting are influencing how mentorship is shifting?

C This is a really good question, and it's also a bit TBD in the current climate. So this work from home mode has really opened up a lot of different ways for mentorship to be really effective that I think how It's forced, which has opened up, you know, a couple ideas for things that maybe we could use on a regular day to day basis how when we are actually working back in the office. So one of the things that's been interesting has been how That so we had our our mentorship program was set up as, there was a recommendation that you go out to lunch a couple times a year as a minimum how and then check-in a few other times, over the course of the months that are not aligned with the the annual review process at the firm. How So depending on who you are and, like, the type of thing you're working through and maybe you have some ideas about a career that you need a little bit of time to think through and meet on, how Some of the meetings were happening, like, every other week, or maybe even once a week if there was something that someone needed some more feedback on on a a shorter interval. But this work from home mode has kind of created the situation where there's been it's it's pretty easy. So our office transitioned to, Microsoft Teams, how teams, pretty much March early part of March. We'd already been using a lot of these tools, to help support projects that were construction sites traveling for, reading to be out of the office for several days during the week or even just remote how access from design teams that are out of the office just for presentations here or there around the world. So we already had, like we had a little bit of infrastructure in place for this, but really had to ramp it way up how for the whole work from home environment.

C And but thankfully, I think everybody was had some familiarity, how are ready from just the way that we generally work. And it was really a fairly seamless transition from working at the office to working at home, Except for this whole, like, personal interaction, ability to have, like, the 5 minute conversation on the side of a meeting, coming or going from something, Meeting at the coffee pot. Like, that kind of stuff doesn't happen. So what has become the one of the ways mentors and mentorship has been utilized is to kind of how Fill in a lot of those other things. So I think people are still having longer term, big picture conversations. But at the moment, there's a real need to kind of how Support folks through difficult times in in the immediate, and it's not necessarily like you're gonna have a brilliant solution for them. It's really just how We need to chat for a few minutes just to feel, like, connection. So a lot of these, I mean, like, quick check ins have been occurring more and more frequently.

C And so instead of spending, like, an hour over lunch talking around an issue, you've been, like, connecting for 15 minutes in between things or squeezing it in. Maybe it's maybe it's still lunchtime and you're just checking in for a little bit. Maybe it's, you know, a a virtual beer after work, for an hour while you talk about nothing. We've also tried to expand the firm role in this too so that there are lots of other opportunities for people to connect, albeit virtually, how with the office. And but I think the, evolving practice and shifting modes of work have really if you look at it from a perspective of, how We're forced into this, so you wouldn't we didn't necessarily choose it. But I think being forced into a new situation, how It encourages innovation in a lot of ways, and it and there have been some really good parts that have come out of just the way that we're organized and working through meetings now. How Don't believe me. I would much rather be back in the office having short conversations.

C But there are some efficiencies to having this kind of virtual check ins that you can compress the the time, but still have a equal impact in sort of a person's day or week about how So they feel that they're being heard and being connected back to the office.

B Yeah. I I'm I'm really glad you shared that. And I guess maybe to just, come back to your point about COVID nineteen and mentorship kinda hitting each other in this moment. Are there, you know, lessons that you've learned while trying to manage a team remotely or mentor your staff remotely that you could share with our listeners?

C Yeah. Managing teams remotely is, it's fairly exhausting, and I think there's just no way around it. How It's really important to maintain, even for short amounts of time, face to face contact. So how We try to have, all the teams get together for just quick check-in meetings at least once a day. This is these are sorta, like, how teams that are on that are have work ongoing. So you could, in a sense, sort of, like, maybe meet twice a week and be okay with keeping work going, but it's, we found that it works a lot better to keep people engaged just to, like, you know, plug in a time at 9:30 every morning to sit for even if you don't use a half hour, even ready to work. How Those those little just like morning check-in sessions are really important to just get the day started on the right foot, because it's so easy right now to kinda, like, drift off and how work way too long and work, kind of inefficiently all during the day because there's lots of other things you could. How You're you're no longer in the office, so, you know, you can take care of all these other little things that you don't usually have a tie time to take care of.

C But, it's really important to just how Kind of make that, it it doesn't need to be a rigid schedule, but you have to have some infrastructure there, some kind of structured time how of checking in so that you can actually be productive during the day. And I've actually found that as long as I start right, like, you Start the morning right, and you can get off on the right foot. It's actually, it can be really productive. What's really tricky is is, like, the how team management and personal kinda connections. So what we found is that the teams that had formed before work from home, how We're able to really easily kinda transition into the virtual world and still check-in with quick video calls are working that way pretty well. How What's really challenging is spooling up a team, for us anyway because we don't this is not how we would normally start a project, but spooling up a new team of folks that maybe haven't worked together or how maybe haven't worked together recently, and trying to get the sort of a working styles and timing and and all that interaction together and and clicking how has been a lot harder in the remote world. So I think what we're what we're doing now is teams that are, in design or in earlier phases how are there's time carved out for those people to meet in the office just to sit down together and go over a few things and get to know working styles if you don't know that person that well. How So it's a balance of sort of 2 techniques of the quick check ins, but then also taking some time, if you can, how to meet in the office or meet someplace at a social distance to be able to read spaces a little bit easier how

B When it's digital. So I think we've, talked about some really exciting things that our listeners are gonna be really interested in from innovation to firm culture to strategic planning and mentorship and even the concept of flexibility in a moment of change. I wanted to give you a chance to close, with any advice that you have to either people who are how Coming up in the field, young professionals or people already in practice that are navigating their way through this field right now. If they're in pursuit of becoming a successful architect are there any words of advice that you would share with them right now?

C Hang tight, I think, is is an important one. How This is a really challenging time and especially if you're entering the field or early on. Keep in mind that it won't always be like this and that how There are better days ahead. And I was really impressed with, you know, I had listened to your 1st podcast episode, how And, both you and Evelyn have really interesting stories about alternate paths that have been prompted by different circumstances. And how This is a case where you might end up having some of the, circumstances like that that would be important for people to understand what other what other opportunities are out there besides just working at a firm. So keep your eyes open. Understand that the current circumstances how are not gonna continue forever. They will continue for a while, and we don't know quite how long, but keep it in perspective of the overall larger trajectory.

C How And look around for other I think design thinking and design ideas are, really transferable to other areas how in a way that, you know, hasn't really fully been explored, and I think your podcast is doing that in a way that's extremely effective.

B So, Evelyn, this is the first time that you've heard some of the information that Andrew shared today on the podcast. So what what did you think? I'm interested to know your take on what stood out for you on this interview.

A Yeah. It was interesting to hear. So when I was going through undergrad, Karen Timberlake is one of those firms that were really up and coming at the time, how And it's great to have seen them evolve over the years. Their research practice is heavily published and documented. So for me, it was particularly interesting to learn more about the way they're applying design thinking to firm processes and operations.

B How Yeah. I think they're a really great example of a firm that's taking, design thinking and applying it to the operational side of the firm in addition to thinking about just the project design. So you heard Andrew talk a little bit about, in the interview, their process is really directly tied to their culture as a studio. They have a model called that they identify as plan, do, monitor, learn, and it's like a cycle that they use with an emphasis around design, innovation, and invention.

A Yeah. And what I really actually love about the model is that the fact that they admit They are a firm that have a lot of built in processes, and I don't there's nothing wrong with built in processes. If anything, I think that more firms should how build in more processes for added efficiencies. But what they do, more importantly, is that they can how Constantly prototype against those processes to bring continuous improvement to the way they design and deliver their buildings. It was also really unique For me to hear about how they invite the entire firm to critique a project through various different milestones and that they make a distinct effort to encourage how everyone to have a voice in that critique, even interns. Not dissimilar from my 1st day at Slack Where they said, you know, everyone has life experience that you bring to the table that is new, different, and unique, so contribute from day 1. So I I how Feel like that's an attitude that a lot more architecture firms should adopt. One thing that I would love to see more architecture firms actually do that I find tech does really well is to also do postmortem in addition to, you you know, these milestone critiques, but also do a postmortem on a project after it's completed.

A This happens all the time in Silicon Valley. It even happened with our sales teams, like, after an interview. They asked questions about what worked well, where it resonated with potential how customers, what didn't resonate, how would we change things differently the next time around. And they actually go so far sometimes as to track and log it. So then they can actively say, you know, remember, that didn't work this time around with a very similar company. So how So you never have that, oh, let's try this approach again and then realize after it failed the 2nd time that it, how that it didn't work the 1st time either. So it kind of active like, actually having a log of this postpartum so you can historically look back

C and see improvement over time, I think, is really important. Yeah.

A And I don't you how over time, I think, is really important.

B Yeah. And I don't, you know, I don't know if they do that. I'm assuming they probably do have a process that integrates postmortem in some capacity, especially knowing that they're very heavily involved with the coat and, basically, like energy performance, so they're doing systems like that. But It would be interesting to ask them, what their their process is around postmortem. And another thing I've I've learned in working with them is that they're ISO certified for research, management, and the delivery of architectural services. So, basically, this is a really well known certification process in Europe, but less familiar in the United States. So KT is definitely one of the few firms that's doing this, and We looked up what this meant to give our listeners an official an official definition, and, essentially, ISO certification certifies that a management system, manufacturing process, service, or documentation process has all the requirements for standardization and quality assurance. How to abbreviate, it's it's about mapping processes, and KT takes that very seriously and thinks very intentionally about the processes of everything that they do, and an intentional effort to set standards within the firm and define a given level of quality.

B They are also continuously evaluating those processes to look for improvement, and Andrew gives the example of when they start a new project that they sometimes ask the question, what do they wanna learn this time? And allow the team time to brainstorm and think about opportunities. By defining a process that is flexible through continuous improvement, it It ultimately helps them think through what they wanna do, when they wanna do it, and ultimately improves the overall design, quality assurance and quality control, and I think it allows them to dive deeper into these research elements that they're very interested in in in terms of systems and sustainable design and basically building these really cool buildings.

A Yeah. But I think even more, you know, and more important for me, from a from a business operations people development standpoint, this is something that they've how even applied to their mentorship program. Right? It wasn't let's go out and template another firm get a template from another firm's mentorship program and see if how Drop it into Kimber KieranTimberlake and see if it works for us. They really took the time to examine Very intentionally, what their employees need to get out of the mentorship program and how mentorship is, like, very much a two way street. Jin, you mentioned that you have been helping them, take a closer look at their program and really playing a big role how and the evaluation the reevaluation now of their mentorship program. Can you tell us a little bit about the approach you used and how that's kind of how Help them with this continuous improvement process when applied to mentorship.

B Yes. I was Very excited to start working with them about their mentorship program. They essentially had a program that they had designed and I came in and knowing that they're very Focused on, evaluating and being very intentional about considering things. My goal was to how to create a space for them to have these conversations. So I essentially designed a 2 day workshop for them that was focused on learning and and looking at the user experience of the program in order to pull information forward. So we talked a lot about the mentor experience and the mentee experience and trying to understand each other's perspectives on those different conversations. And I really believe that these opportunities where we can bring staff together and have open dialogue to understand what's really working in a firm and what's not is critical for any firm to be doing. And so, it was great that we did this because we had 2 very awesome days of thinking about what mentorship looks like within the culture of KT.

B So I shared a lot of my research that I've been doing and gathering about what other notable firms in the industry had been doing around mentorship. And what was shocking to me is that there are firms out there, even really well known ones, that how don't have mentorship programs, which seems honestly, I really don't understand why any firm would not have a mentorship program of some version. And and then from there, it you know, based on different firm sizes and types of firms that have different types of design studios, how mentorship programs range really widely, so people approach it in a lot of different ways. But what stands out to me with KT is that, Like you said, there was this active and intentional thinking about how to continuously improve what they were doing, and how I think that's so critical for any design firm to be thinking about right now, especially with so much change going on. You have to think about all of these different people in your studio and the experience that they're having, and mentorship is a communication tool and a vehicle for helping them understand and learn how to work within the firm and learn how to be a great architect. So investing those type of conversations, going deeper is a great use of time to benefit the future of the firm.

A I agree. And one of the biggest takeaways for me was how critically but also thoughtfully Karen Timberlake looks at how they manage their firm, how Even being super specific to ensure that all of their staff had the ability to rotate across multiple project types so they are not how Pigeonholed into 1 vertical. I often find that when I talk to especially younger architects, how You know, they they are hesitant to join firms because they feel like they're making a decision to sign up for a specific vertical for the rest of their career, And and they're doing so at the beginning of their career, and then I talk to mid career architects who are actually looking at, how have an interest in switching, to a different vertical, but they feel like they have so much deep experience in one vertical that they don't actually know how to make that how That switch. So that was another interesting thing that I think Kieran Terlik did very thoughtfully. In many ways, what they are doing is taking all of their research work that they are so well known for and published for and applying it with the same rigorous way, to the practice and, you know, the the way they do everything that they do. So so not just design, you know, how they bring the younger professionals along, how they continuously critique Their the design or even the process by which they critique their designs throughout the firm.

B Yeah. I agree, Evelyn. And so I guess to come back to our final takeaways, I think in this episode, our listeners can think about prototyping, the validity of the design team in terms of flexibility. Evelyn, you mentioned postmortems on projects, and I think it's really about looking critically and using design thinking to evaluate your entire practice.

A And on that note, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, how A podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice disrupted.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature her of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. If you enjoy the show and want to hear more content like this, you can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening, how and see you

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