Ask Me Anything, Season Finale

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

C Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Hey, everyone. How So this is our last episode for our 1st season. So we are going to be running things just a little bit differently. We are calling this episode an AMA our ask me anything, where we receive questions through our newsletter and social media channels from our listeners to respond to.

B So rather than us asking questions to a guest, you guys are gonna actually ask us questions. And we've invited a very special guest onto the show today, Demetrius Lynch, who is the backbone of the show. He edits every episode of Practice Disrupted. He's also a cohost on the show Spaces podcast and is a cofounder and the chief creative officer of Gable Media who is the producer of our show. He has played a huge part in ensuring that every episode of the podcast has come together on time and sounded really great, so we thought of him as the most appropriate person to invite on and ask questions today.

C Great. Let's jump the interview.

D So glad to join you guys. Good to be on mic with you. You are at the final episode of season 1. How Are you guys excited? Are you sad? What's how do you feel about wrapping up season 1 right now?

B You know, it's surreal for me because When we started the beginning of the show, it was towards the front of the pandemic, and so we were going into it Just trying to continue on in our effort to keep coming up with new content and ideas to share with with the industry, and it ended up expanding in from, initial I think we said 12 episodes to 20, and then Now we're at the end, and it's it's been the thing that I've been using to help me get through the pandemic. So each week, having something to how Creatively think about and work on has helped a lot in terms of just keeping me going as things have been uncertain, and so it is kind of a, surreal moment to be at the finale.

C Yeah. Actually, I literally sent over Janine a screenshot today of all of Kind of the images from the Practice of Architecture website of of all the episodes that we've done this 1st season, and I Literally said can't can't wait to round this out with our final episode this afternoon. And I think it's it's how It's exciting to look at that body of work. There's definitely with anything you do, it's all the emotions. How Janine and I tested our friendship at times. We, it's been addressing, how managing through all of the different personalities of the speakers that we bring on. And there's times when how we

E felt that we were way ahead and

C doing good. And then there's times where, like, we're, like, we need to get stuff to Demetrius now because we're behind. To edit and record it. And we're Running behind, and we're feeling, not super healthy right now, but we need to get it in anyways. So I don't know. I think it's the ups and downs and the roller coasters, that comes with doing anything anything new. But it is nice to kind of look back at that body of work and see, like, I I accomplished this how In addition to everything else during the the pandemic. And and, you know, the smallest emails, by the way, from the listeners just mean how so much to us.

C The smallest little comments. I saw a comment on the Entre Archetype Facebook group where somebody else was asking for for podcasts how from specifically from women, you know, and and for me to not have to post, practice disrupted on there was just a really nice

E how Reaffirmation that what we're doing is meaningful to people.

B Yeah. I agree. And I I just wanna add that on our last how recording, for episode 19. The we got to the end, and I was just asking Evelyn, like, how do you feel? You know? And I think we both how read. We feel really proud because the spaadia work is something that we have been intuitively working on through our own studies and work and research and conversations on the side, and to actually bring it together to collaborators thinking about these things and trying to dig into it. It has been Really rewarding to see the outcome of all of that hard work, so it's it's a meaningful creation for both of us.

D Yeah. How And one of the things you mentioned, Janine, the switch from 12 to 20 episodes was how Interesting on my end too because we we just had this curveball come in, and I was like, how Oh, we decided we actually kinda like this, and we're gonna ramp it up. We have more ideas, so we're gonna go to 20, mid season. So that was pretty, how That was a curve ball that we were able to adjust and and get that extend. I don't even know if that was really picked up on the audience side kinda what

E that is.

C How I wanna blame Mark for that one just because he's not here, I think. But, you know, Mark who is how the cofounders of Gable. I I think he was saying that he was he was talking about 20 episode seasons, and then Janine and I were like, wait. Weren't we only going to 12? How Oh, if they wanna do 20, okay, let's do 20. So yeah. I yeah. I blame Mark for for for the curve ball that you received.

B How Yeah. Thanks for running with it.

C You did a good job. Yeah. Always blame the person that's not in the room. Just kidding.

D How So you you you kinda gave in given a little bit of the insight already, but can you guys speak a little bit how specific to the podcast experience and how you've enjoyed doing architecture or doing, how Marketing is very different from putting a podcast together. Can you talk a little bit specific about how you guys have felt putting That together and the the details that go into putting that podcast together?

B It's a lot more work than I thought it would ever be. So For anyone who says, I wanna start a podcast one day, just know it is a ton of work.

C And we only do half the work Because Demetrius is the one that's editing us and actually making us sound a lot better than our recordings tend to come out, how Especially those ones where Janine's recording after midnight to accommodate my my motherhood schedule on the on the West Coast. I was a complete newbie to podcasts, so so it's just it's just been an interesting process. But with everything, I think there's just, how Like, there's there's this creative energy around it. And I don't know. I I told Mark from the beginning, how many years ago that I was interested in doing a podcast, and I didn't want I didn't really ever wanna do it alone. And I I felt I didn't have enough Knowledge to go in and and do it. So just Demetrius to have you has been incredible, but it's also been interesting to find my way through it. So I think it's a a tribute to, you know, you don't really know what skills you have until you apply yourself.

C And then often that you find you have more in your toolbox than you actually realize. So I think that was a kind of a big lesson for me to just sometimes you just have to jump in, and get going.

B I told Mark this, I think, when he interviewed us, but I really love podcasts. I always how Listen to them when I was doing work for long hours, and I also listen to them when I wanna take a walk Because I'm an extrovert, I just really enjoy, like, the benefit of being able to turn on a podcast and feel like you're listening in on a conversation with people and, like, It almost feels like you're in the room, you know, being part of that conversation. So I knew I wanted to do a podcast at some point. It was how I'd written down when I still lived in California, and it's so surprising to me in in a, like, how Wow. That dream came true kinda way to be doing it, and I love

C it so much. Dimitrios is

E fulfilling dreams.

B Yeah. No. I really love it, and I I just really appreciate that, Mark and Dimitris, you guys have given us, you know, a chance to to share our voices on your network, and it means a lot. And I like the work. I feel like I'm in the flow of, like, doing something that I'm good at and that I enjoy, and that's a nice change of pace considering I struggled with finding that for a long time.

C I think there's, like, there's the whole design problem attribute to it too, though. Right? Because I think we're all designers, and it's it's never how I don't know how many times I've just told Janine after she record like, rerecorded, and she's like, I have no idea what I've said. And I was like, it's gonna come out. One, we're giving it over to Demidrius, so it's gonna come out fine. But literally, it it does always, I think, come out fine. But absolutely, there's like how This is the last episode, and Janine and I are already thinking about how we can tweak the presence of the episodes on the website. We want how To make it more accessible to a larger community, so we need to put the transcripts up there. So I don't know.

C Even though this is the last episode of how Season 1, I still feel like it's very much a work

B in progress. And I will say I just wanna acknowledge the Evelyn, you mentioned this how too. Like, the creative part of it is emotional. And so there have been moments where Evelyn and I are, like, really heads down focused, and there have been moments where we've you know, there've been a few tears, like, in in what we're saying because we feel so passionate about it and to, like, how Go through that creative process where you just leave it all out there and hope for the best is it's how to go through. I told my friends in San Francisco, I was laughing because one friend always she was like, gosh. Like, she was joking because I always have something to say, basically. And I told her, I was like, after doing the podcast, like, man, I feel like I've said it all. I don't even know what to say anymore because I just have been talking for A whole 4 months about all the things that I've been thinking about for 10 years, and it's been it's been really fun to bring it into the world.

D Evelyn, you mentioned, that evolution of a podcast. Mine, for instance, I would say I probably do about 4 to 5 how different types of episodes within, because I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I want it to be for, you know, somewhat of a long run. How But it's a constant evolution of figuring out kind of what works, what's what what do people, enjoy as well as what do you enjoy. So it's kind of a a process of figuring it out and tweaking things here and there. So you guys have have done a great job with it. Have you, how One, has there been any surprises along the way that you just just came out of nowhere, and you're like, I did not expect that at all. And also how One of the things that I noticed was my why changed from the beginning to where I am now. Has that also happened in this process of your evolution?

C How I think my why has changed in the sense that talking helps work through ideas. How So is in a way, it's like all of this talking has helped crystallize some concepts that I might not have Otherwise had a thorough opinion about yet. Like, one of the ones we mentioned in the last episode was just how that the entrepreneur mindset for the individual career. Like, I've always talked about, you know, our architects are are very passionate individuals. So it's really hard for us to kind of approach our career from, like, a business standpoint. But I but I think in the end, it actually helps us how Grow faster if we don't tie as much emotion to it, to necessarily to the the work the clients that we're how we're doing, and we we think about what we need to learn, and what we need to develop and grow. So it's been interesting to me how Saying all these things out loud has helped crystallize that. I think the the why has been interesting too.

C Right? Because I I I was just like, this is just another platform to tell our story, but I think it's also equally a place for others to tell theirs.

D How Do you think you're finding out more by also listening to

E others too?

C Yeah. I mean, I'm also learning. I'm learning so much. Right? And that's, I think, also informing my ideas. The main one has always remained. Right? It's called practice disrupted. I think we need to expand services. But how how we do that and, you know, how we change the culture of our firm, how we change business processes, they've, in a very good way, kind of, oh, brought in my viewpoint to a lot of different ways of going about it, because I only had lived life experience up into that.

C And so so that's been helpful. So I think, you know, the why has also been you know, this isn't just a platform for me. This is a platform for for others as well. And how Our guests have been, like, honestly, very thankful for us to give them that platform. So that that has been equally as meaningful to me.

D How Would you say that that's been the surprise is how much the engagement with others has evolved your thinking?

C Yeah. And these are people that we've been friends with, most of them, for a while. Right? I I just don't think we've, like And and on this side, we always talked about these things, but I don't think we've it's that focused conversation that really, you know, helped us dig down how Deeper into what they were saying. I think that, it was interesting just, like, how much the deeper conversation, like, expanded my view on how The architects could be and do and and influence so much so much more.

D No. That makes sense. How Janine.

B Well, I think that the why definitely changed. At the beginning, this was coming from a place of frustration. I think that came through in some of the things that I had to say throughout the season and, you know, I I kept sometimes I'd listen to it, and I'd roll my eyes like, I'm saying that again. You know? Like, how When I had this experience, and I think now what I feel is, like, I'm finally, For the first time in my career since I've been getting paid to do work, stepping into work that I feel like how I wanna do and I meant to do, and I I really appreciate that because I'm sorry I'm crying, but it's just it's just been missing for a long time, and so it feels it feels really good to have that in my life because I've wanted it for a long time. So thanks. And I guess the surprise is that, this work means so much to me because how I feel like I've been seeing the gap for a long time, and I think the surprise is that it's like this how This process is like a charrette in and of itself. Like, when Evelyn and I come together and we have these really deep conversations, how we work through things and we, like, figure it out together using our our minds and our training. And when we bring our guests on, it's like they help us explore this subject deeper, and it's, I don't know.

B It's just really powerful. It's like a body of work that feels like it needed to be explored, and doing it together with a group of professionals feels really rewarding.

D Yeah. How It's and just so that you guys know, as I'm editing, I feel a lot of that frustration that you mentioned, how And I think, you know, getting emotional now is such a good thing because, like you said, you hit this point where you how You're doing what you feel like you're supposed to be doing. And then listening to all of your episodes, I get fired up personally how for some of the conversations that you guys are having, because I was thinking the same way that you guys thought coming into this to creating this podcast, a lot of the conversations that you're having. I know myself and a lot of other people all had the same conversations within our own firms that we you know, working for someone else and, like, how see these problems, and we're like, why can't you just make these changes? So a lot of that conversation is happening on the, you know, mid level and lower of you know, these there are certain things that need to happen to improve the work environment and how Potentially, which would feed into a better practice as a whole, and it's just a matter of stepping outside of how the old way and taking a little bit of a risk to explore other opportunities and to try to improve your business. How And as a younger to mid level person, you see it and you you don't have that fear of risk. How So you're just like, just do it. Just do it. And being able to voice that and hopefully to start to Get those conversations a little bit higher, I think, will be beneficial for the industry as a whole.

D So I'm glad you guys decided to start to do this, And, it's been interesting to see the evolution from my side of your conversations, how you guys deliver your points and your ideas. So it's just been a amazing experience from from my side just to see you kind of navigate this whole process. How So let's jump to a listener question, because I know some listeners wanna hear the responses to what they had to ask. How So let's start with this first one. What changes required by COVID nineteen will become permanent, how And how will they impact the profession, good and bad.

C I I well, I mean, I'm I'm hoping.

E How I don't know.

C I think I need to start viewing the profession as glass half, half full rather than glass half empty. There's there's things that I hope stay afterwards. Right? But, I've been in the profession long enough to see how things how Tend to bounce back even the great recession. Right? And we resumed as as things were how Before. But my, I mean, my biggest hope, especially as we enter how Being generation x and not even necessarily millennial, but especially as I'm entering a a place in my life where I'm I have 2 young children, but I'm also, in the not so back of mind, I'm also thinking about the caregiving aspect of my my 2 parents, who are aging, that

E how The 9 to 5

C business day kind of disappears that it's really bit a lot more about you perform forming when how You perform your best and and getting in the hours you need to complete the task, but not necessarily counting the cumulative hours too. How so I would I would hope that this kind of idea of flexible work schedule continues. That would be my biggest hope how for for COVID nineteen and the architecture community going forward. I also think there's a a greater understanding of the tools that it takes how necessitate remote work. Like, it took a big incident, right, for everyone to begin to explore these tools. But, you know, is there a way to continue to explore those 2 tools on a basis, because things evolve and change so much just so that we can continue to keep up with the curve. I would love for us to stay ahead of the curve, but, again, that's my my glass half half empty perspective on the profession. How So a lot

B of the stuff that I talk about in this season, you know, it's based on my own opinion, but it is definitely backed by, As you said, Demetrius, shared opinions that, like, just I don't think other people, health settings, what they're thinking, when they disagree. And so when I say things and I generalize things, what I mean is that, You know, I've worked with other people that are my age and younger, and they feel these things. It's not like a imaginary thing that I'm making up. So the one that I know is on a lot of people's minds that sit in offices all over the architecture community is the remote work piece. You know, for how For a very long time since, the age of digital technology has started going in the direction it has, how people want to be able to have more flexibility and work from home. And architects were largely really resisting this, except in a couple of instances where firms had the resources and the money available to support it, and this has prompted firms to not be able to hide behind that excuse how of not doing it anymore. So I I really am hopeful that firm owners don't revert back to 5 day a week because I don't think people want it. And how For the culture of the firm, I think it's not a healthy thing.

B I think to Evelyn's point, there's there's flexibility, but in more so, it's about, giving options for some remote work to allow for more flexibility, more, individual preference because, you know, not everybody wants the same thing, and that's a big takeaway from our show.

D Yeah. Fully agree with that. How On that same note, this this next question, which gets personal for you guys, Janine, I'll start with you. How Can you describe what your work from home and or your recording setup is like?

B Interesting. Well, for those who know me, they know I moved from California to North Carolina last year right before for the pandemic, and part of that was to have more resources in my housing situation. I went through kind of a hard time out there with housing. So now I have a room that's my office, my for my business, and I have I've invested in some really nice recording equipment that I love, and I it's basically a mic that's on my desk, and I can move it. And sometimes I've actually recorded it, you know, in other locations, like when I went to my parents' house. So I can take it with me. I had an arm at At one point, but now I just have it sitting on my desk because it's a little bit easier to move.

D Evelyn.

C Yeah. So, well, right now, I'm sitting on the bedroom how floor in the back for this corner of the house, because we're recording during the day. So anytime that happens, I have to tell everyone in the house to be quiet because it was a house that was built in the sixties, and, you know, you can hear everything in the house. I think when we just started too, I was like, there's a lot of lawn maintenance going on in my neighborhood because I could hear everything. But, during the day when we're recording, we're here. I'm here. How My husband and I share an office. It's a den.

C It's adjacent to the kitchen, and it doesn't have a door on it. So usually, him and I are trading off between the master bedroom how When it comes to taking conference calls, if we need to. And then if I do any recording in our, quote, unquote, office slash done, it's, After the entire house has gone to sleep, which means it's super, super late for Janine.

B Well, that's the great thing about running your own business.

C So, yeah, I'm grateful for her ongoing flexibility there. But, yeah, right now, floor of the master bedroom sitting on 2 pillows.

B Yeah. That one always cracks me up, how When she records and she's on a pillow on the floor.

E And then, Janine, I don't think

D you mentioned it. This is, you're in a just like a second Room of your your place.

B Yeah. It's a spare room, and, usually, my big obstacle is my dog who likes how to bark, and it is very insistent on 4 o'clock walks and, does not like it now that we've been home for so long that how We spend a lot of time in front of a computer not paying him attention, so it's a constant negotiation of, you know, how he's feeling and the things that I need to get done.

D Yeah. Okay. Now sort of in the same vein, how As far as offices go, there was this big trend of the open office that sort of was stimulated by the big tech firms, and, how Everybody wanted to create this cool working environment. So with that came this this whole new culture of how you set up your office how Your company office. Do you guys think, you know, after going through all the conversations you had, in particular with in reference to culture how And considering COVID, do you think the office will change and culture will change moving forward?

B Yes. Definitely. I have a lot of opinions about this. Houses, and I have to say I'm not a fan, and I hope that trend goes away because when you don't how control over your space, and you have to sit next to someone or you, are put in an environment that, has how Too much background noise or it's too quiet or whatever. It's it can sometimes be really disruptive to your workflow. I remember at one point, I had a I had a principal that just was really opposed to people wearing headphones, and he just thought it was Kind of, like, disrespectful, I think. And what I don't think he realized is that it was so distracting to sit in a room that had no noise or had too much noise or if the person next to me happened to be yelling about something, like, how To that I had to go buy fancy headphones just to block all that out. And so to come back to a spatial conversation, I think, Yeah.

B I do think it's gonna change. I think, well, obviously, we can't sit near each other quite like we used to how Until things get resolved, so it's gonna change the way we design. I think with the increased remote flexibility, it's gonna change the way people want to work, and I think, just open office should should be rethought anyway because it doesn't work for everyone. And the most important thing I wanna say is that I think you framed it earlier as mimicking tech companies and the culture that they have with open offices and ping pong tables. Well, in architecture firms, we got open office, but we didn't get any ping pong tables. So I just wanna make the point that, like, you can't hide behind this phony baloney culture stuff anymore. Like, remote practice, how Trying to bring your team together over the Internet, like, you can't hide behind false culture anymore. So you're gonna have to how figure that part out, and I hope that people do because it's really important to the long term investment in the firm.

B How

C Yeah. I mean, so I have you know, I'm I'm investigating this daily kind of even in the work that I'm doing at Slack. How But it's, you know, it's the whole move between this is my office to this is our like, this is my office with my desk to this is our office how where we come to collaborate and work together. I think I actually like the the open office. I I feel like I'm one of those people that come to work to socialize, and then I actually go home to do the work. Inevitably, maybe that's what's made me, like, such a night owl, how inherently because I don't get as much done during the day as I need to. It's just interesting to me, because there's how This and I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but I I recently talked to a firm principal who's and and most by the way, I feel how Architecture firm principals are worried about that mentor mentee relationship that is lost that comes with remote working. But we we recently talked about, like, how You don't really have access to the principal, you know, as somebody who's just drafting.

C You know, and this one would argue that, Like, oh, well, you're not gonna pick up the on the ambient conversations, and, and that's where a lot of the learning happens. And I was like, no. I actually think a lot of, Like, people have headsets on in the studio, so I don't know how much ambient learning is going on through everyone's noise canceling headphones. So how There's gonna have to be, like, a a purse a perspective shift. And then Anne and Steph talked about this in their conversation, but there's going to Have to be more intentionality with how you show up and when you show up together and what you do at that time. I think even even the culture of the AIA board, anytime I have to sit through a presentation, I'm kind of like, why didn't I get this how Prerecorded and advanced. So when we come together, we can actually have a discussion rather than taking my time to sit through a presentation that I could have how Easily watched in the background while doing some work, but, like, digesting it. But, anyways, there just has to be different intentionality about how you show up, how and when you allow people to digest the information that they need to digest, and then what it what it means when you bring people to how together.

C And those times, I think, is an interesting flip. Right? Like, now I enjoy, in the middle of the day, going and giving my son and daughter Hugs and kisses. So I feel like even though I'm at work, I'm getting to spend a lot more time with my my family. Whereas before, I spent so much how my day and my week in the office, so I was less intentional about my interactions with my coworkers. But I feel like now, we just have to there's a specific agenda that you're always driving through. So in a way, it boosts productivity on, like, the 1 to 1 and the the team level. If every time you come together, it has to be for a special intention and meeting, and you you have to have outcomes at the end of that.

D How Yeah. So, Evelyn, you talked a little bit about one of the things that you enjoy about being, working from home, being able to how Hang out with your kids in the middle of the day. One of the questions that came in was, how Could you advise how can moms easily embrace the responsibility of being an architect? How And, Janine, you can also jump in with your dog.

B Furry parents.

C How This is actually a really hard question. Jadine's like, Evelyn, you should speak to this. And I'm like, I actually this is like

B it's really hard. How Well, I think it's like because you're living it. Like, you can't see what I see, and it's just your reality. That's the that's the how part for me is, like, I'm watching it going, wow.

C Maybe you should talk to this because you've seen my evolution of being like I mean, you've known me before

E Yeah.

C Before I had a fiance, let alone before I had 2 kids.

B I know. How Well, so if if anyone knows Evelyn, then they know that she's a very focused person. She works really hard, and she's really, focused on achieving really hard goals in her career. Like, she has never hesitated on trying to go forward in in, like, advancing her professional growth. Yeah. I mean, I just think you're a determined person, and so, like, your career is basically has been, like, your highest priority, which I get because that is that's the same thing for me. And then at some point, you got pregnant and you You had these 2 amazing kids, and it was amazing to come and see you with these babies and how much it changed you. I think it made you have to pull back on that professional front in order to make space for them, and and you love them so much.

B It's amazing to watch, like, how much you're nurturing them and caring for them, and, I watch you balance how like, one example is just us doing the recordings. You're so sweet with them. They'll come in, and they'll say, you know, McKinley will ask, like, a question and she'll and you'll say, oh, we can't do that right now. Mommy's recording. And you're just very patient with them, and how It's sweet, and and they're watching you work, and, they're part of your life. And so I when I see you balancing things, it's just like how your whole world is is that altogether at the same time. There's no separation. And the other example I wanna mention, which It's too bad it didn't get recorded was when Jeff asked us to come do the professional practice class at Ball State.

B Kenley joined us us and was, like, sitting on Evelyn during this, like, Zoom call, which was really hilarious. And, so we're, you know, Zooming into this classroom in in Indiana, and I just think it's cool. Like, the that's a new barrier to break down for other women how To see in that classroom and for me to see a mom who's a professional, hardworking person integrating her how children into her work in a way that's not separating, but together is actually really powerful, and I think how more women would benefit by being able to see that. And it's not an easy balancing act at all, but you you do a very good job trying to accomplish everything. So there's different types there's different type of mothers out there too. Right? I've seen a lot of women how Leave the profession

C to care for their children. I've seen a lot of women try to split their time Where, you know, they they drop their kids off at at day care and go to work and come back. I think I I've always been a workaholic. You know, I I have sat in women's groups that talk about, like, oh, I wish we had 6 month how Maternity leave, and 6 month maternity leave would kill me. Like, 3 months killed like, I studied to get my real estate exam how License. My real my realtor license while on maternity leave. So I had, like, something to do. So I think, First of all, like, that's the type of mom I like, I will never be as nurturing as my nanny, but that's why we hire a nanny.

C I also, Even though I'm in tech, you know, not all my coworkers have decided to hire a nanny, but that's something that my husband and I have how to do. Like, my ability to continue to grow my career and stay on that path even though the majority of my salary goes how To my nanny is because we've decided to commit so much of what we I bring to the table financially to her. But that's not always right for how For every mother. There's definitely some mothers that would prefer to be a part of their children's lives, especially in year 1 to 5. And and I love my children, how And I love getting hugs in the middle of the day, but I don't but I don't need to spend 247 with them. And and and video calls are amazing when you're on the road. And I feel like what I bring to the table of motherhood is endemic of, like how So my mom got a master's in computer science after she had me at night school. And she my dad traveled a lot how he worked at Los Alamos National Lab, and he's actually coming out here a lot to Lawrence Laboratory.

C So I remember long nights, Like, when I was, like, 5 or 6 where I had vending machine meals because I would be out in, like, the student lounge of the local community college while my mom is finishing her master of science, but essentially, it's like a master in computer science degree After hours. So that's that's kind of the role model that I have, and I and I feel like so much of me is so much of what I do how is is similar to kind of how my mom raised me.

D So let me ask you this to sort of pull more. How Can you talk a little bit about your mental state in the transition from when you had a child? How Like, where was your head space in bringing a child into your situation that you already had going?

C I was it's freaking I was scared. I was even more scared with my second. How I remember sitting there 8 months pregnant saying, like, we can barely handle 1. How on earth are we gonna handle 2? Like, we figured out a routine for me to go on the road with 1. Like, I can't imagine my husband with a newborn and, like, how A year and a half old because they're 22 months apart. So I guess, like, you know, a newborn and a 2 year old and dealing with that on his own. How Thank goodness for husbands and part like, supportive partners too in all of this. One mental state that definitely changes, I thought how I understood mothers as a nonmother.

C I don't think you can really fully understand what it's like to be torn emotionally by your kids how Until you have, like, those kids in your life, you do tend to prioritize things, and you do decide, like, how In order to get sleep at night, you're like you just you just can't stay up till all hours. I used to have a very scheduled life. Like, how Right. Like, it was really I would play in 3 to 4 soccer leagues a week. They were on my calendar. This is my work how This is my soccer time. This is when I go out with friends. And what motherhood has done, and maybe this has actually helped me how Accommodate the pandemic more.

C It's like I block out time, but if things get shifted around, It doesn't freak me out anymore. It used to freak me out. So I feel like I'm I'm more able to go with the flow of things if I need to how Just because I'm so used to having my kids interrupt the flow of things now.

B Yeah. I would agree because she's always she's very flexible, I would say, and You're always telling me, like, that that has been an outcome of you raising kids because, like, I will get really type a on this sometimes, and Evelyn will have to remind me, like, to pull it back. I mean, it comes from the architecture. It comes from, like, the desire to have something perfect, and, Evelyn will remind me that, You know, it's okay.

D Was there any sort of conversation to yourself how or to your kids of how to be able to to manage both? Did you have to tell yourself, like, you talked about, you know, how Being more flexible. Was there also a conversation with your kids of, you know, setting boundaries and stuff?

E How I

C don't know. I mean, I I don't well, my son I think my son and my daughter are really intuitive, thankfully, so they know. You know, it's funny, like, how quickly I don't know. My my daughter keeps turning various different things into computers around the house, and she's, like, sitting there. And, like, I'm working. This is my 3 year old. But she she knows, like so if I after I finish recording and I come out of the bedroom, like, the nanny has told Didi Candice She has a name. We love her.

C She is a part of our family. She will have told the kids, like, you know, mommy is recording. And then the first thing I'd how They'll say to me, like, when I see them after I open the door, we'll be like, yay. Are you done recording? So they they know. They use they know when we go how the office that we're not supposed to go in the office. So it's it's more like I mean, they're 5 and 3 now, so it's more about just setting. Like, Okay. When I cross this threshold of this room, like, you unless you absolutely need something, and inevitably, they'll come in sometimes, like, how Just don't come in.

C So it can't really be emotional boundaries for them because they just they just don't understand. So it's like Whatever physical boundaries we could set in place.

D Those are some good tips, I think. Hopefully, I think that would answer the listener's question.

C How But what yeah. I mean, our office doesn't have a door. So I definitely there are people that have benefited from having offices with a door. So how I

B think that, Evelyn, you do a really good job explaining to them, like, what's going on, which I noticed. Like, you'd pause, and you'll how Just explain it to them, which is really good helpful rather than, like, shooing them away, which I know some parents do and can happen when you get frustrated, but how you'll stop, and you'll explain it, which is good.

D So let's jump to this question to change the topic. How How do I sell my architecture background to get interviews with consulting positions, and are there companies how you are familiar with that have architects in upper management that value my unique academic background.

C I can take the well, this can go so many different levels. Right? So there's there's consulting firms, And consulting, one for me is a hard one because consult there's so many different types of consulting out there. So it really depends on when how The type of consulting you wanna do. And what I learned about the big consulting, the McKinseys, the Deloitte's, the BCGs of the world, how is that you have to understand their interview and onboarding process. You are you're more likely to get through that process independent of your background hound if you know how to do case interviews. And there are a whole bunch of books that you can go get on case interviews if you want to go work for a big consulting firm. And then there's, like, the IDOs and the frogs of the world. And those people how hire for diversity and background.

C So first of all, if you're in a company at more of more than, like, I don't know, even 20 how People. The partners weren't making the decisions about who is on my team. You're looking at middle managements doing most of the hiring. Right. So independent of architectural leadership, I I think you are really trying to appeal to the actual hiring managers, And and sell your skills there. And then I think if they don't have an architecture background, you need to have the language how To communicate your value to them and quantify it in ways that they will understand it. And then I think it's just dependent upon how How insightful that hiring manager is. And if you are looking to get into a place that you're constantly fighting with a hiring manager saying this is how This is my value.

C Then if you are able to get hired, you're gonna continue to be fighting with your manager about this is my value. So I don't know if that's a place that you wanna you wanna end up. I think it's if you're interested in going to consulting, it has to be an intuitive match between, how Like, what value you can bring and what value that they inherently see you have or you're able to explain to them that you have and they they realize.

B Yeah. I can say I do know people I know young designers who have transitioned into, well, I'll say one. I know 1 young designer who has transitioned into one of the big consulting firms, and he came at it through a design angle, and so that's how he's found his footing in that world, but I agree with Evelyn. To go into that world, the thing you have to do is practice case studies and learn how to do those so that you can go in and show them that you have the skills they're looking for. So it's a rigorous process. You can't just, like, skip that part. But if you're looking for other types of consulting, there's a huge wide range of options out there, and they, like, for example, a really good friend of Evelyn and I is Susanna, White, who who came out of the AIA and ended up going to work for, McKinley Advisors, which is a nonprofit consulting firm. And so she is a partner, and she's FAIA, and she's really good at what she does.

B And so how she's found that path forward, but it's not a short term game. It's like a long term game. You've gotta figure out what is it that you wanna consult on, where's your niche, how do you get enough experience and perspective on that topic in order to how to start consulting on it. Even in starting my own business as a consultant, I mean, it's taken me some time to, like, really find my voice in that. And so, you know, it it's just something that you you have to understand yourself, and you're selling yourself as a consultant in your knowledge, and so it's kinda how you package in and present that body of work or that knowledge.

D So as I asked the question and as you guys started how Talking about it. There is a disconnect in my brain, and I assume there may be some in some of the listeners. How How would you define what a consulting firm is? Like, what does that mean? And then how How does architecture play a role in

C a consulting firm? Oh, that's interesting. Wow. Defining consulting. I think defining consulting is like a web This is one where if I were, how Like, if we are on a YouTube channel, you would see me googling away, like, what is a consulting firm? I think so so most consultants, You're helping an individual or an organization, like, raise their value proposition, improve processes, how Understand new areas of business that they can grow into. So it's essentially I don't know. How Coaches out there will probably disagree with me, but I feel like it's coaching, for an organization in a way. Right. Like, it's helping you get Janine's, like, squinting at me, so I know she disagrees with me.

C But I I feel like consulting is helping you how Do you think better differently? Having a a third party come in and kind of audit, like, what what you're doing and how and where there are potential improvements. And then there's, like, some consultants that stay around for implementation, but some consultants just kind of hand over the strategy and leave.

D So that would so that would apply to consulting for any company. It's just a matter of you trying to navigate, what architectural background is applicable to contribute? Yeah.

C So I guess in the AEC industry, when you talk about consultants, you're talking usually about your vendor consultants, so your MEP, your structural. How Right. So I think there are definitely consultants that are complementary to you. But I think when Janine and I or at least when I inherently how Define consulting, it's more about people that are, helping you lift up your business. How It's more on the management consulting side. And then to answer your 2nd part of the question, where I've always thought architects could differentiate themselves how is that we are, 1, a a lot of what we're taught around design thinking, I think we actually we actually need to switch how And we talk need to talk about the value of systems and how we're systems thinkers. Because I think that actually has more play in the business world, and frankly, it hasn't been as overused how as design thinking, but it's this notion that there's a lot of different things coming together in a three d space how that you need to solve for. So when we talk about being these incredible problem solvers, it's because we are looking at all of the various different inputs that are coming in to create a solution.

C And and that's a that's a systems problem. And I think that's the type of, Like, that's where we excel. And then also where we excel is actually implementation. Because like I said, even even the big firms, they joke. Right. I had a friend that worked for Mackenzie for years. You know, they create this strategy, and they don't necessarily help as much with implementation. There's even been a few times where, MK Think came in on the back end of somebody else's strategy and then helped them implement the consulting strategy.

C So how So architects, I think, where we thrive too is that we we actually can deliver upon the strategy, and we have a history of doing that how with every single building that we've built as as just kind of it being a prototype. So and and finding your way through through those things. Right? How Because every building is a prototype, we have processes, but, it doesn't mean that the output in the end is always going to be the same. And I think that's a, how Like, a different value prop that we bring too.

D Yeah. Jenny?

B Consultants are thought leaders, problem solvers. They're how What you're buying is their thinking and their knowledge and their experience. So when you hire a consultant to help you with your business, they're coming in to help you look at a problem, and it can be any problem in the organization. Action. There's a lot of different types of consultants. Coaching is a different thing. I guess I'm sprinting at you because some consultants coach, not all consultants coach. How coaching is definitely more of, like, a active about a person or people or teams kind of how Dynamic, and I think I guess I think of consulting a little bit more broadly.

B And I my work has been researching all these different consulting firms that do business management consulting in AEC, and there's quite a few of them, but not as many as you'd think. I mean, it's mostly people who are doing it, on an individual basis. There's a few practices of groups of people, and most of them are working with a lot of the different leadership teams out there that are running these different firms.

C Most of them are ex Prints, notables, and partners on a 2nd career track.

D Yeah. That's true too. So so it sounds like your not goal, but how What you urge people to consider is breaking yourself of the limitations of only being able to solve spatial literal hard spatial problems and think more of you are a person that can take in a lot of input, Analyze it and deliver and output a solution to whatever that problem is and not necessarily it doesn't necessarily just have to be a building.

B Yeah. I think that's a really good observation. I think you probably said it better than I could've said it myself.

C Okay. Yeah. You should just erase everything we how You just, like, respond to, like, your own question with that with that very shortened response. Yes.

D How So we are coming up to the end. Do you have ideas about this upcoming season?

B I do. Well, season 1 was a labor of love. Like, I remember when we started talking about this, it was a process of just kinda, like, mapping out exactly all the conversations that I knew we needed to hit on and then trying to design design around, like, what what questions were we trying to answer and explore and then trying to align the right speakers with each of those different topics so we could touch on different things. So I spent a lot of time trying to come up with that, and and we started some really good series this season 2 that I'm really proud of. I think the voices from the future of the profession is a favorite, and the architecture and is something that I think we're how starting to figure out, and I know those will continue on next season. And so what I'm imagining is we're gonna take what we learned in season 1 after we have a little bit of time to process it and build on those conversations, in a in a continuation to keep going with this work.

C Yeah. I think I mean, I just have a list of people that I'm building. Some people that actually have reached out to us and said, I have a recommendation as somebody who would be great on the show to offering a different perspective After Rebecca mentioned how she was or she hadn't made heard of this group that was building on Mars, I saw a LinkedIn update date how from one of my contacts, and he is now working with a group that is designing, designing for architecture on Mars. I'm like, I need to bring him on practice how disrupted. So some of it will be thought out. You know, the ones that are the most thought out, I feel like are the how the voices of the future of the profession. We're definitely looking at what outside experts can we bring in outside of architecture where we can learn from them. And then I I mean, I ultimately and there's def there's definitely a few practices that we've identified that how that are doing things a little bit differently that we'd like to highlight.

C So I think it's it's gonna be more of, I think, what everyone loves. And then for some how Some very obvious reason, remote work with Leah was a had a big spike in listening to. So we're we're also how Looking at the data and trying to figure out, like, what are the most listened to episodes and where can we go deeper? How

D Yeah. Do you guys have a personal favorite topic that you guys enjoyed yourselves that you wanna dig more into?

C How Now and maybe that's that's the flip for me. Like, back if we go to back to one of your original questions, like, I've. How This is really actually a learning experience for me too. So rather than go, like, more narrow or get too how Excited. I think I'm more excited about, like, continuing to broaden my perspective on on what it means to disrupt the practice of architecture how And, really, where where are all the opportunities and values that we can bring to the profession so that we can kind of how share and up leveling design and architecture.

D So it sounds like investigating and amplifying how Rather than Yeah. Sort of crafting your own path in in the show?

C I think so.

D How So that means for the listeners, if you know anybody, or heard anything, saw a cool article, make sure to pass those along, how And then they could do the hard work for you and find those people

E and

D and ask ask the questions of how they got to where they are and where they're going, with whatever they're doing.

B Yeah. I I feel like we're building a body of research that hasn't been done yet, and I how Would ask our listeners to definitely send those recommendations, and and I can't underexpress how important it is when we hear back from you guys. You know, we sit in isolation most of the time when we're recording this, you know, just talking into Mike, and We do our best to to bring ideas forward, but when we hear back from you guys, it really helps. It makes it clear that, like, we're going down the right path on things and or something's resonating. And I'll just you know, to the question, I just wanna say that I think my favorite episodes how are the ones where I feel like we really connected with the speakers, and they they you know, I really particularly liked a couple times Evelyn brought guests on that I didn't know. And so it was really fun having those conversations, diving deep, and building an unexpected the connection with someone around something that we both really felt passionately about. Like, I remember that happened with Dave, Fano, and then Moe, I think, was a good one. I knew Christina, and Ming, but, like, I didn't know them that well, and so just I just really love those moments of connection.

B They were very special, and then we had some really good friends come on that we do know very well. And so one that I loved was our reunion with Anthony and Andrew.

D Yeah. So I love the Practice Disrupted podcasts. I think you guys are having some amazing conversations. You are a free r and d team the way that I see it. So Anybody that's listening is getting a lot of information that they don't have to do as much investigation on their end, that how You guys are doing it for him. So, you guys are providing an amazing resource, in my opinion. So thank you so much for what you guys do. Really good stuff, and I'm looking forward to season 2 to see what what you guys have, what you uncover.

C Well, that's a wrap how On season 1.

B Is there still a pandemic going on?

C Yeah. Let's not talk about that. So there is something, Janeen, that I think you wanted how to encourage our listeners to do.

B So when this episode airs, it'll be right before the election. So hopefully, you've either already gone to the polls or you are sending in your ballot by mail or you're gonna head there soon. But anyway, please go vote.

C How Yes. Plus, I think all the cool kids are saying to go and get the vote out. So I feel like we would have a little bit of FOMO if we just didn't say go out and go vote.

B Yes. At least I didn't say rock the boat,

C but you just did. Okay. So we are taking a brief break during November December. Much needed. But we will be back in 2021 with season 2 and more brand new content.

E How So be sure

C you subscribe to the show or stay subscribed to get updates when the new episodes air.

B You can also follow us on social media at practice of art on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

C We are also discussing the launch of a brand new online a community in November where like minds who are interested in redefining what it means to practice architecture can come together. To get yourself on the wait list, Make sure you subscribe at our newsletter at practice of architecture.com.

B In the meantime, we're also taking on a few new clients for those of you who are interested in potentially working directly with Evelyn and I. You can reach out to either of us at either evelyn@practiceofarchitecture.com or Janene, which is spelled jenen@practiceofarchitecture.com.

C Finally, and we did this a little bit at the top of the show, but how We wanted to send out a huge thanks to Gable Media, both Mark and Demetrius, who without their incredible support and their work behind the scenes. This podcast would have not been possible this year. And we also want to Thank them for taking a huge chance on 2 female entrepreneurs in this space.

B Yeah. Absolutely. And you can check out their podcasts, which are Entree Architect and Spaces podcast.

C Until then, stay safe, and we look forward to bringing you new content in the new year. How See you in 2021.

A Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice disrupted.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice. This show is part of the Gable Media Podcast Network. You can learn more about other podcasts in our community by visiting gablmedia.com. How If you enjoy the show and want

C to hear more content like this,

A you can help us by leaving a rating, review, and subscribing on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget to share with your friends, and how feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you're interested in hearing about. Thanks for listening.