Season 2 Launch

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Welcome to episode 21, how The 1st episode from season 2 of Practice Disrupted. It's January 2021, and we are leaving 2020 behind and transitioning into a new year and a new season. Today, we invited Wanda Lau, who is an editor at Architect Magazine, how To join us as a moderator in an interview about what's ahead for season 2. I've known Wanda for a while, and a couple years ago, she invited me to become a more regular contributor Architect Magazine and has been a host on a number of their podcasts at Architect Chats. So I'm super excited to bring her on. How In this interview, we hope to sum up our goals and ideas of what we are planning to do in this next season.

B As Evelyn mentioned, Wanda Lau is an editor, writer, and a podcaster at Architect Magazine. We are delighted she joined us to kick off season 2. How Wanda covers technology practice and op eds at Architect Magazine, the journal of the American Institute of Architects. Based in Washington, DC, she is an award winning editor and writer who has covered everything from building codes to firm culture. She's also a host and producer of the Architect podcast network. Prior to joining Architect, she worked for a decade in the AEC industry as an owner's representative, engineer, and communications director, but not all at once. She is part of our architecture and community, and we're excited to bring her on the show.

A Let's cut to the conversation.

C I don't have any notion that 2021 is gonna be any different immediately from 2020, just the way it's going. It's just how That's just a mess. Continuation. Yes. The new page of the calendar does not mean anything.

A No. It's interesting. I think so this this episode is how on January 21st, but, we're recording on January 8th just for perspective for everyone. So what happened this Wednesday, oddly enough, I think, hit me that much harder emotionally because we all may have this idea that things are gonna turn over in the new year. Right? How There's new goals, new resolutions. Everyone's that's when gym memberships get active again. Everyone's Kind of doing this big reset, and I guess I was secretly hoping in the back of the mind that we did a reset at the country already. But, how Yes.

A Here we are in 2021. And yesterday, we were 7 days in, and I noted this in the newsletter. But for our listeners, I was like, No. Everyone's like, I I I had the free pass the 7 day free pass on 2021, and I wanna return it. I'm done already.

C Yeah. It's hard to it's Hard to stay away from the news right now. It's just so appalling, but expected at the same time. It's just just an attack on American democracy and everything it stands for. I just I live within 2 miles of congress. So I Oh, no. Right there.

B Wow. That must have been scary.

C The the district how was in a lockdown, with the weather curfew. Right. And there are definitely groups of how Unmasked men walking through my neighborhood on their way to probably the hill. But, yeah, it's it's hard to Put it into words, the feeling of seeing your hometown just being ravaged and trashed by people who don't respect American ideals, the real American ideals. So it's hard to say.

B That's really tough. I'm I'm sure that was hard. And Evelyn and I, because of our extensive work with AIA. We've been to that building many times over the years to participate in governance days with the AIA. And so, having been in those buildings, It was hard to see even and just I feel like it's an extension of a part of my home. You know? Feeling very proud of being involved in government at all through the AIA. It just felt like a violation even for me, and I I don't live in DC anymore.

C You don't have to live in DC to just feel completely just broken.

B So I know a lot of people are trying to recover from that right now and, you know, to your point, Evelyn had aspirations that 2021 was gonna, you know, be the year to rebound.

A And then conversely, I've also been how having conversations with my colleagues that all all of my younger colleagues without children are aware of just like, how This vacation isn't long enough. Like, I could have used another week, and all of my colleagues with children are, like, thank god they are back to how School and I have help back at home. So, like, it was bittersweet because I was happy to get back to work this week and and have help at home. Him. It's just been an interesting week.

C Yes. Here in DC, DC public schools never went back full time in person, so, you know, how We have the privilege of being able to hire help. Some people are still just you know, their kids are working alongside them on the dining room table. And that's how it's been for that's March Last year or so. Yeah. But, yeah, echo with the sentiments. It's nice to have some structure back in this in the children children's lives. So so, Evelyn, Janine, you guys completed 20 episodes in your season one.

C That was your 1st season for podcasting, which was really impressive. Are there any grand takeaways from that season? I know you went over some of them with Demetrius last year, but I guess after this kind of break how some time away from the podcast. What are you guys thinking?

A Well, I don't wanna speak on Janine's behalf. But I was surprised we got through 20 episodes. And then we were like, okay, we're gonna commit how 40 this year. And there's a part of us that are like, how are we gonna find the 40 right people to fit in the podcast to fill that time? How And, you know, what do we wanna talk about and what do we wanna say? But I think I'm personally trying to approach my my word for this year is how Agility in all of its forms. So I'm personally trying to take things in stride a little bit more, how And, you know, from the feedback we got on the podcast, so many people loved the variety of the episodes that we were offering, So I think if we can continue to offer that variety going forward, but really stay true to the notion that, how You know, what it means to practice architecture can be more broadly defined and that the how Profession can learn so much more by looking outside of what we traditionally do and and learn from that. I I think how I think that's kind of where we land, and then I'm not so worried about filling the 40 slots. I don't know

B about you, Janine. I'm not worried about how either. I know there's so many people out there that have ideas to share on this topic. For me, I heard feedback from friends that, how You know, these are issues that a lot of people have had on the side inside their firms either, like, when they go out to lunch or, you know, some how From cultures, they're open and they are talking about it. So I know that it's not new. It's kinda like just bringing it into one how Bigger conversation where everyone who has thought about these things can come together and kind of problem solve around it, and that's what I find how Really exciting about what we're doing.

C Find that to be true too. In my coverage at architect, I focus a lot on architect and designers, not so much architecture projects that people know my coverage. So things that you guys talk about here such as actual professional practice, which what it means to run a business, what it means to have values and a strong firm culture that actually walks the walk. And I think I think you guys have done a great job With the diversity of guests you've had in terms of their expertise and their backgrounds and how they touch upon architecture in some unique way besides their excellent design work.

B We really appreciate that. Thank you, Wanda.

C You're welcome. 40 is ambitious, though. It is.

A Courtney is This is coming from somebody else who had her own podcast already.

C I mean, it's still going. We are slowing the pace of it just because it takes time and staffing to do it. And as you guys know, and you guys both also how full time jobs.

B It does. I would I mean, I think we talked about this a little bit, but I think the amount of time that goes into this I mean, I know voices from the future of the profession was one that everybody really liked. And if you only knew how many hours went into that, I mean, it was a huge effort that how that group, from Demetrius who edited it to the contributing speakers who wrote their stories. Evelyn and I had many planning conversations and worked extensively with the moderators to try and think through how to how Have those conversations in a in a positive way that really made an impact. So those episodes take a really long time to create, and they definitely are a labor of love because we're coming from a place of trying to ask people to tell very personal stories about a common theme around challenges that they face. And so, you know, we feel really lucky that we got 2 really great episodes out of that that that can hopefully educate people on how to think differently about things that maybe they don't have access to the information that they would need in order to change their mindset. And then beyond that, like, the interviews themselves, Evelyn and I spend a lot of time trying to think about questions that we wanna ask that are gonna hit into the topics that we know need to be discussed. So it takes a lot of our time, and we learned a lot, I think, last year.

B And so we're hoping gosh. I feel like I just walked off the field of a football game. I feel like I'm giving this, like, post game summary, but we learned a lot, and we're gonna try and, fold it into this season. How I do feel like at the

A at one point, we actually became more efficient, but I feel like it's one of those things that you, like if if you dropped off, it's gonna take a little bit how of time to regain its efficiency. That's right. That makes sense. Mhmm.

C There are strong analogies how With architectural work in terms of how much thought goes into a design detail. Like, just the smallest minutiae of a detail can take hours and hours of iterations. And, Yeah. Podcasting is a labor of love for sure. Definitely. Do do any of your personal goals for this year. Do you think that will have an impact on the kind of guests that you're looking for?

A I wanna I wanna stretch a little bit more. I wanna stretch myself a little bit more how when it comes to design and all of the things that can be designed in the world, you know, businesses, operations, processes, how we market ourselves, how we do business development. Those are all things that we can redesign, how we approach those. So I'm I'm gonna try to make an effort, I feel, this year to reach out a little bit more to my business school network and see what other outside expertise we can bring in and learn from, and really just when it comes to learning how to how create a business out of the practice of architecture itself. Like, I I need to learn from these people. Right? Because that how The business model around the practice of architecture is unlike any other business model that you find in traditional practice. So Janine and I have been really talking about how do we make this doable for us so we can continue to do the podcast and sustain it and, put food on the table and do the things we want to in life. So yeah.

B Yeah. I agree. And, similarly, I'm thinking very entrepreneurial about things, both because I run my own small business, and Evelyn and I are working together to build up the practice of architecture and the podcast. So how A lot of my personal goals are related to trying to get better at being an entrepreneur, and Last year was a learning year. I put a lot of time into figuring out small little parts of the equation. And this year, I'm really hoping that that how Turns into more efficiency and more momentum for me in terms of running my business and running all these things that I'm trying to do. How Beyond that, I think, and I'm sure a lot of people feel this way, 2020 was so hard and that it it felt like how things came to a standstill and sometimes I felt like I wasn't moving or I was running on marbles. You know? Like, I think there was just this grand feeling of loss of control for everyone and trying to navigate, like, how to build a new normal.

B And I know people are tired of these words, but it's true. Like, these are feelings that people had. And so I am really determined how to reclaim as much stability within reason that I can within my own life. I don't wanna be afraid, and I don't wanna be not taking action in order to, you know, get through this. But I I wanna be safe, but I I I have to move forward. And so I guess that's a abstract way to say that I'm just trying to how Find My Footing.

C I think using yourself as a case study for the podcast as someone who's just trying to build a small business is a Excellent story, especially for people who have been impacted by the pandemic and the recession that came with it just because how Employment is higher than, obviously, the past few years. But, yeah, there's a lot of people who are underemployed right now or unemployed how We're looking to perhaps this is a good time for them to start and fulfill the niche or avoid in that industry that no one has provided yet. So I think using yourself as a case study, a great a testament to exactly what this podcast is titled. And Evelyn and your B School contacts, I mean, who how many architects is gonna have B School contacts? So I've been looking to other industries and seeing how they're how Kind of treading water or even pivoting or even excelling in this time would be very interesting, particularly as how firms perhaps look for additional streams of revenue or hiring people with a diverse backgrounds and experiences. I think that'd be very interesting.

A I'm gonna get Janine to use her b school connections too.

C Oh, too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Janine. Yes. Your b school context is fine.

B Yeah. No worries. We are collaborating and and we're having a lot of fun doing it. So I think it's been what's nice is Evelyn and I have so many commonalities in terms of how we how think about things, and and that's been fun. So we I think we push each other. And then and then in other ways, we balance each other out.

C We noticed more of an interest In business practices and what general other what companies and other industries would typically do to run a successful business. Have you seen architects more interested in and open to hearing from what, larger companies, Fortune 500 companies would do in applying that to their own models? How Or do you still do you still find architects kinda separate from this notion of being a business?

A Janine can battle me on this one. I think it's a generational thing. I feel like the older generation believes in a unique way that what we do is really special, So it's hard to make comparisons to any other organizations and say, like and learn lessons from there because how because we're different. We're unique. Every every single building we deliver is a prototype and something that has come out of our creativity. So how do you how do you even, like, begin to build processes within the firm around that, let alone learn from outside organizations. I feel like the younger generations are eager how to really make a go at it, and they're questioning, like, all the different ways that we can do it, and they're looking for how I think they're inspired by some of, like, the larger organizations that are actually mission driven, and and they're happy to to draw how And take ideas from there. Yeah.

B I don't think I'll battle you on that. I because I definitely think it's a generational thing too. And I I think, what I've seen a lot of is particularly on the medium to small firms, like, any firm that is how Individuals who started Affirm because they love architecture and they came together to practice design, they're thinking about creating something really unique. They don't want to be I've heard numerous architects say this. They just don't wanna be a corporation. And so there's this misconception, I think, that thinking about business takes them away from design. And in some ways, maybe that's true. I know there are metrics out there that rank architecture firms based on design, business, house and sustainability, for example, but I don't think that one cancels the other out.

B I think one can elevate the other and that those things have to work together. And that's all Evelyn and I are saying is, like, just because you're focused on business doesn't mean you're gonna create an overt culture, that is corporate in nature. It just means that you're you're trying to put processes and ideas down that are gonna elevate the design work that you're doing. And so I think there's some really great firms out there who have figured out that balance. Like, Karen Timberlake, We had them on last season. They were a great example. I think there are others, and we're hoping to invite them on this year. But really just a willingness to be innovative between business and design.

C Yes. Architect magazines, Architect 50 is a ranking that ranks the firms based on design, business, and environment. And also we're looking at adding an equity mesh metric as well. And they're not mutually exclusive, and 1 person doesn't have to do all of them. You know? It's just how It's just a matter of hiring the right people to kinda meet the goals and be able to articulate that. What should be the goals for these particular streams? So, so Evelyn, you're expanding a lot of your work on the practice of architecture, and I understand you have a new playbook out. Can you talk more about it?

A Yeah. So we released it at the end of the last year, and we're only gonna continue to grow it this year. But we found that all firms, no matter what size you are, are really how Questioning how do you what's it gonna look like after we emerge out of COVID? What does the new workplace how look like, what does a new firm look like, how much flexibility do we give our people. This is not true of just architecture firms. It's it's what we are asking at Slack, you know, to where I work. It's what Salesforce is asking. How It's what Google and Facebook and Twitter and all the big tech firms are trying to figure out. I I mean, I don't know of any business that isn't asking this question.

A How The reality of it, though, is that I think the majority of organizations will try to be a hybrid mix. So they will ultimately try to keep the flexibility or allow for greater flexibility, which means that at any given time, Your entire teams unless you set up an intentional meeting for your entire team to be in the office at one time at any given time, you're how You know, the team's probably not gonna be all physically present. So what does that what does that mean? And if you think about how If you look at the 3 different models of practice, 1 being everyone in the office, 2 being all remote, and 3 being a mix of the 2, how The hybrid practice is the most difficult one to undertake because of that. Because you have you could have a physical team, but you always have to act if how 1 person isn't there, and how do you make sure that they get all of the information that they need? So we've developed, how You know, this is this is key and core to the work that I'm actually doing at Slack right now and all the questions that we're asking around, how What does it mean for meetings? If we have 3 people in San Francisco and 2 people in New York, how Do we all still jump on our individual computers so we have an equity a more equitable online meeting experience how Versus before when we weren't all remote, you know, those 3 people in San Francisco would be sitting around a conference room table, how Or it might be 5 people in San Francisco and that 1 remote person, and that 1 remote person just felt you know, it's it's hard to see all the 5 how People on the other side of the screen. It's hard to it's hard to interject. You know? And that's just kind of one example of how you have to rethink everything you're doing to be inclusive within a hybrid practice. Yeah. So that's how That's kind of, I feel like, where we're focusing our or where I'm focusing the practice of architecture.

A There's so many subtopics that fall off of that. Right? Like, you have to build a culture that's values driven to support this practice model. You have to relook at all of your operations and processes from the ground up and rebuild them, how Including how you hire people, how you onboard people, how you mentor people, with intention. You know, some of the biggest complaints architecture firms I hear her saying, like, everything you learn from that gets picked up from overhearing conversations that are happening in the in the office, you're not hearing anymore, how You know, my argument would be I I in the majority of architecture offices that I walk into, a lot of the how People that are doing CDs have their headphones on to focus in an open office environment. So So how much of that ambient noise are they really are you really learning from? And and, how do we rethink how we mentor how The future of the profession. So, like, I I feel there's just so much content there that really played to everything that we how talking about in season 1 that can go into season 2, but also build, like, a body of work for the practice of architecture in general.

B I agree. And you're right, Evelyn. I think that culture piece for me is so important. I having worked in architecture firms, like, I think that that's the piece that you have to figure out. If you wanna be a thriving office and especially in a time when maybe your entire team is still at home and hasn't seen each other since March of 2020 in person. Culture is a metric that you have to be investing in and thinking about, and, largely, it's been neglected. And I think Some firms have attempted and they're working on things that they wanna do around those conversations, but I think there's so much more potential there that is being ignored or overlooked because it hasn't been historically a part of our industry. It's always been an external thing to the firm, and only perhaps you know, I I know that small firms are able to build have that really nice culture, culture, and large firms are able to offer programs that enhance culture.

B But, overwhelmingly, when it comes down to it, like, if You're working on a deadline. Culture becomes a neglected part of this industry, and that's what we're talking about. You know, it's not the happy hour after work or the morning office meeting. It's, like, the culture of the firm when things are really hard, and, like, how do you navigate all that? I know there's a lot of different people out there doing good things, and that's what we hope to dive into and understand and and understand how to have conversations around culture that elevate the people in the office. I'm really passionate about making sure that millennial and Gen z designers who decide they wanna become architects how Make it to become architects, and don't leave this industry. I mean, that's why I am doing what I'm doing because I've seen too many people walk away from this industry Because they feel undervalued, they don't feel listened to, they don't have a way to how Move up fast enough, and that's unfortunate because this industry is it has so much to give, and I really how want to see that next generation of talent become exactly who they're meant to be in terms of leading the firms of the future that we need.

C I how I think the design profession can definitely benefit from in the emerging generations just because they're just they're more open to ideas that we need how more commonly in design such as their attention to sustainability, to ensuring accessibility, equity, working in communities that who need it more than potentially high paying typical clients that turn to architecture. So I think that's critical. And I like your point that when you guys are talking about culture, you're not talking about, like, virtual happy hours, like, aft on every Friday, which can be fun, but it's probably people are tired of that by now. It's more just the culture of understanding that people need to be flexible in their work hours, especially right now in terms of if they have children or if they have maybe night school, if they have other jobs to support them or their families or the caregiving their own parent how us providing caregiving for their own parents. You know, it also needs to support a culture of mentorship for bringing up the newer and, emerging professionals. Just giving grace to people at this time is very I think what people really value right now in terms of culture. Yeah. Not so much just, like, company merch Yeah.

C So and, Evelyn, are you and are you guys and, Janine, are you guys sourcing these ideas from your own work at Slack, or are you how Finding other firms that are practicing. I know there are some small firms, like you said, who have always been completely virtual, and and, you know, maybe those models are a starting point. But how where are you getting these ideas and the case studies?

A For for a starting point, I've been sourcing a lot of, a lot of how What I've been learning at Slack through other virtually or remote first companies as a starting point, and then I think we're gonna more actively seek out other case studies. So we do, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here, but, so we're working with Leah and another partner to come back and start a course on how you wanna build a virtual practice. Should you want to build an entirely virtual practice, how But I feel like as we find more of those firms that have done the these type of things, this would be a great opportunity, and we would be happy how to highlight them, in a variety a variety of different ways.

B A lot of my research comes from decade a decade of conversations with people that work in firms all over the country. I have been lucky because I have a very a sense of network that I gained through my time with AIS and AIA, so I feel very tapped into what it what's what's happening across the country. And I think the rest of it is through a lot of my research that I do external to the industry, like, you know, my training in business school and then a lot of my stuff that I read that's business management related.

A How I've always had this, and I've talked to Janine about this. I don't know if this is gonna be the year that this gets filled out. Probably not. We have a lot on our plates. But, how Pre, like, Glassdoor, I had there was this person that released it released this. It was meant how To be like Glassdoor, but it was called Inside Arc. I don't know if one day you're nodding. I don't know if you remember that it was out in the world, but what happened is how What happened on with Yelp, essentially, the first time that everyone kind of complained about architecture firms, and the founder got a lot of threats, about from from firm principles.

A So it didn't it didn't ever evolve into something like Glassdoor, But I feel like there is a greater need to either find a way to get architecture firms to to to participate and, like, this the transparency how like, what happens within our firms, you know, for them to be exposed a little bit more. I like, how Technology firms are encouraging their people to go to Glassdoor and make comments. I was at an architecture firm where how We were determined that for every negative comment that went up, we thought the principal was logging on how Using 3 different emails to post 3 positive comments, which is kind of beside the point because he actually never made changes how to the firm. He just, tried to overpower negative comments with positive comments. But I think there's an opportunity there to, like, how How do you create that environment? We've also talked about, a lot of architecture firms don't do, how Like, yearly employee engagement surveys. So is there an opportunity for a third party to kind of step in and and gather all that data, you know, and ask a consistent handful of questions across all firms as they gather that data I think that's an opportunity to to understand more about how culture is being evolved or not evolved in architecture firms. How Those are all, like, on the, I don't know, maybe the 5 year road map. And if somebody gets there sooner, I'm all for them getting there sooner.

A Just We would

B love to partner with you. Evelyn, should we talk about what we're doing this year? Sure. We're really excited this year because I think one of the big goals is to build a community of like minds, people that are thinking outside the box innovatively. They're interested in business or growing their skills from a business standpoint even if they're still practicing inside a firm, but we are we're thinking about how to create a lot of really great resources that support those people so that those conversations are happening in a concentrated way where they can grow.

C Is that in conjunction with how The playbook is a separate forum or platform.

A So I think I mean, honestly, we're looking at starting a membership program. You know, so when we talk about growing a community, we wanna be really intentional. We talk about intentionality all the time, so we wanna be really intentional about The people in that community and make sure that it's a vibrant community, so, so when people are showing up and giving their time to it and, how You know, and paying into it. They're they're getting they're getting true value out of it, and there's plenty of other forums out there that talk about entrepreneur and traditional practice, that talk about path to licensure, that talk about details and codes. I think that's the 1st time I've ever said details and codes on practice disrupted, so, obviously, that's kinda, like, not where we're going to be focused. But, you know, it's going to be playing on helping these people develop pieces of the the hybrid, practice how So the culture piece, the mentoring p the people piece, helping them understand what tools are out there to to move them forward. I think we're going to give them access or we're gonna give them greater access to our podcast guests so that we've we've had a few we've actually prerecorded a few episodes how in December where we've already asked those guests if they'd be willing to come back and do an ask me anything with the community. So that means that, how Our listeners will get a chance to engage with the people that we're bringing on the podcast, and we're actually looking how at being more active about hosting our own webinars.

A And I don't we're making a conscientious effort to to increase how The variety of different ways people can engage with practice of architecture and the opportunity to learn from how Not only from us, from other experts and from, like, others in the community as well.

B Yeah. Like minded people coming together To talk about shared issues.

C And are you targeting a certain people with certain levels of experience or people across all levels of experience? How just some other kind of mindset.

A Yeah. I think it's more of a mindset thing for me because I think there's there's so how I have said this numerous times. You know, Slack believes that if you are whether you're an intern or whether you're how Showing up as our chief marketing officer. You have the ability to contribute something to the organization from day 1. I I mean, I think that's how true of of anyone in architecture. Right? They they bring a unique, different perspective, and I I I am totally of being the manager. That's just like, come on, like, new associate. Like, I just hired you, and I just need you to do this.

A How But I've taken a step back at those points too and been like, if they need me to explain why I want them to do it a certain way and they how Challenge that, and we come out doing it a different way that's either quicker, better, or faster than we both learned from that.

B How I'm really interested in, leaders who are either trying to grow as managers or how Young business leaders or they're at that, like, growth point. I think that's what I'd like, you know, personally, is to work with people who are in the process of growing and still trying to figure it out and get better at those skills. I think the mindset is somebody who's open to growth and wants how to look at new ways to do things.

A So, Janine, I would do a yes and to that with the caveat that, Like, for instance, we've lined up, like, a a Forbes 30 under 30, so, you can be any age and still be in that.

B Yeah. I don't think it's age specific. I think it's really about mindset, for sure.

C So you mentioned you've already conducted some interviews for your season 2. How What else are you planning to pursue?

A We had a great conversation actually this morning. It's been a long morning of recording, talking about the importance of knowledge management and and capturing knowledge and, what that looks like. How I've brought in some people from Slack. Slack announced a future forum last year that they're going really deep on kinda what is the future of work how look like, and they're approaching it from a 3 tiered perspective. It's people, process, and place. So they have actually somewhat of a more academic research how Outcomes of of some of the survey questions that they're doing and and how organizations are designing new ways to work together going forward. We're looking at bringing in some younger entrepreneurs that have gotten VC funding how to launch products that support the architecture industry. We're also looking at I'm also trying to chase down a few individuals, Who have, you know, launched products given their architecture background, but the product might not be at all related how necessarily to the practice of doing architecture.

B Initially, trying to pull in a couple contacts that I know are gonna hit into those business skills that we've talked about, like practice issues. So we've got someone who's operations focused. We've got someone who has marketing digital marketing background. I've also I'm trying to get this other person that has, a really good perspective on, people management skills and coming from outside of the industry. So I hope I hopefully hopefully, she'll say yes. And then, we also are gonna continue. Like, the voices, series is gonna continue. I think we are looking at ways to keep that, fresh, and I'm talking to a couple of different people about potentially organizing the next one on that.

A So, Yeah. And we can actually get more specific about that, because I think I feel like, Janine, you got really excited, but we are looking at doing one voices of the future from a handful of how that just graduated during the pandemic and what

C they're facing. Oh, yeah. Time.

B I know, actually. And And so we do have some people that are interested in doing that for individuals that graduated in 2020 into that climate. And Evelyn had the great idea of, like, thinking about that in context to the last recession because I know there's a lot of parallels that this isn't this is not a I mean, yes, this pandemic was crazy, but that dread of being a graduate into a market that doesn't have jobs is not unique. It's it's happened before. It's recessions are cyclical, and we know that there's people who my age that graduated in the last recession that are they figured out how to come through, and and I think, hopefully, we can provide anybody who's finding themselves in the 2020 graduation market in 2021 and adjacent years, a little bit of hope behind that.

A How And then we were also looking at and, Wanda, you've alluded to this a few times, but those individuals that are, wearing multiple hats both at home and at how by being caregivers, and especially, like, kind of mid career women in the profession and what that looks like.

B We have a lot of things we wanna cover, but we see them all connected through a practice perspective.

C Mhmm. No. I totally I totally dig practice coverage in in all the formats it takes. You know? And I I Janine, you mentioned you're seeing a lot of people who are trained architects leaving the profession, which does offer a lot. But do you also see, like, a benefit of our train people who are trained in design architecture to going into other industries?

B Oh, absolutely. I I see it as positive, and I think a big thing that we talked about last year, was that we wanted to how Shine a light on that because I don't know why it's like this, I guess, just cultural issues again, but a lot of times when those people leave, they stigma. Are no longer part of our industry unless they're, like, adjacent enough that it benefits the firm in some way. Like, I don't know.

A How We do have a way, like, if you aren't following the licensure path and if you didn't get on this path, and and this is true of how How you know, what I would like to see change in the AIA is how do we capture all of the people that went how that have an architecture background and have a love for architecture, but found a different career trajectory. Like, I feel like they are they could be our biggest advocates, how But but we tend to isolate them, in a very negative way, and and not include them in the profession anymore.

B How Yeah. I remember early on, Evelyn and I both were like, okay. We gotta stop using the word alt alt alternative careers because, like, It just feels so condescending, you know, to put an other label on it. You know? It to us, we how We wanna show value in it. Like, we brought on Rebecca who was probably the most unique voice from the Architecture Anne series. She works at Lucasfilms. And after her interview and listening to it, I watched Mandalorian season 2, which she worked on, and I barely was listening to the story. I was like

A Except for, like, at the final when Luke revealed himself. Africa. Yeah.

C Then I was just Spoilers. Spoilers.

B Then I was just, like, looking at the renderings, but, mostly, I was looking

C favorite part of the I how I

A love seeing the at

C the end. Yeah. Sorry. Go on.

B Oh, no. I just was like I was like studying the architecture. Like, I never thought to study the architecture in that show until I had that conversation with her, and and then I followed up with her. And I was like, oh my gosh. Now I wanna know which which how Sets did you work on, and, so we've been emailing about that. But, you know, it's just really cool. I think there's there is architecture in these other career paths. You just have to look for it.

C I I know Evelyn used to say that I'm probably quoting you background to yourself. Right. I used to say architecture is, like, 3 recessions away from being, like, extinct. Yes. Do you think that's even more true now given that a lot of tech companies are kinda moving into the space too? Kinda I'm thinking like.

A How I mean, I think we have to keep an eye on it. Right? Like, the the amount of funding the amount of funding going into the how Construction technology, real estate technology, is is actually it's, like, pretty astronomical how quickly that's grown. How I would hold that traditional practice since maybe it's now is now 2 recessions away from being extinct because we find ourselves in the middle of another one. How It's not necessarily an evolve or die situation, but at the same time, it kind of how is. I think we just need to be aware of everything else that's happening around us. So, you know, SoftBank bailed Ketera out, and I just know that there's gonna be a lot of architecture people out there saying, you know, told you so. This isn't going to work. And I think how To take that approach is just kind of dismissive of of the opportunity that that still exists in that space.

C Yeah. I think there are a lot of interesting models of architecture coming forward that straddle how Tech and design. And it's not a bad thing either. Again, they're very, compatible. But, you know, I'm looking at, how Like, Generate is another company that's doing a lot of great modular architecture and use it really capitalizing and leveraging technology to create almost bespoke design just but how Much faster than, you know, traditional design routes. So I think borrowing those ideas across tech and, design is it can be very lucrative and promising.

A Yeah. Absolutely.

C And without compromising design at all. That was so much interesting stuff. Well, I'm excited. I so If you guys are going to do 40 podcasts in this season, almost 1 per week recording, you probably batched some of them, but that's still a lot.

B Well, we're gonna we're gonna be in a sprint through to, May, and then we'll take a little bit of a break over summer, and then we'll come back and do our 2nd sprint. So we'll do 20 and then a break and then 20.

C Good luck with everything.

A But we're gonna bring you back, Wanda. How

C Yes. I'd love to come back anytime. Thank you for asking me to be on. It's such an honor.

A Hopefully, that was an interesting point of view into some how of the conversations that we're having behind the scenes. We will be inviting Wanda back as a guest speaker later this season to talk about getting published how and the importance of writing to build knowledge leadership.

B I also wanna clarify one point that I realized is potentially confusing from the interview. At one point, I stated, I wanna keep people in the profession so they can become architects and don't leave. And how Almost immediately after, I stated that I see value in people pursuing careers outside of the industry.

A That's So confusing, Janine.

B I know. Some people might find those 2 ideas at odds and, and some, you know, might understand where I'm coming from, but how Perhaps that's a conversation for another time. The main point is that people are walking away from our industry, and we're losing people. We don't have the time or the depth of resources on our bench to lose more talent from this industry. We need to find ways to keep them engaged and connected.

A I absolutely agree with that. I think, Janine, you and I and I've been very honest on the podcast previously about how how isolated I felt when I was deciding whether or not to step away from the traditional path. And this was even true when I how Remain so close and actively engaged within the AIA network. Ultimately, that is one of the reasons why I wanted to launch a new community, the POA Lab, how To bring together anyone who defines architecture or architecture practice more broadly and to have a place to explore new ideas, how Whether that's a different approach to culture and business development in a more traditional form or ideas on launching a brand new product how pursuing a new career altogether.

B So you're officially launching the POA lab this year in 2021?

A Yes. So, actually, by the time this episode airs, we will have already opened up the doors to the POA lab.

B And maybe we should pause and explain why it's called a lab.

A Yeah. You know, and I think you and I talked about how Calling it an accelerator. We talked about calling it an incubator. Those two terms are very heavy and deep in the technology field. For us or for me, you know, I define lab as an opportunity for experimentation, research, how to put out challenges and begin to meet those challenges. It really is, perhaps, if anything, an introductory step how To being an incubator and an accelerator, but it's really a place for conversations and to grow community through new ideas.

B Yeah. And we've heard from different people who've been listening to the podcast that are excited about sharing their ideas and and joining a like minded group of people who are talking about these things. So maybe we should talk about what if anyone decides they wanna come join this community, what are they gonna get?

A I think we've said community, like, 5,000 times already, but anyone who joins will obviously get access to every other person that is a part of the community. We're also going to be hosting behind the scenes AMAs or Ask Me Anything conversations with podcast guests that we have brought on our shows. So it's an opportunity for you to ask your questions directly with our guests. We will be hosting a number of amazing peer to peer networking events, and you get extra time with us and the growing POA team. The other thing you're going to get is free access to our monthly webinar series and a growing library of on demand resources, as well as free access to the CEU offerings how that we are beginning to put forward following our podcast episodes, as well as access to the playbooks that we started to develop at the end of the last year, including our hybrid practice playbook and SWAT playbook, and more playbooks forthcoming.

B So clearly a lot of interesting things to Happen2. And the next question I think we need to address is what makes this community unique because there's certainly a lot of different communities out there.

A Yeah. And I think, Janine, you and I actually participate in pretty actively in some of those communities. So there are a lot of communities out there, how stand alone and on Facebook, including the new Clubhouse app, which as an Android user, I'm really struggling trying to be a part of right now. How But I feel like a lot of those communities really specifically address being a woman architects, are looking at path to licensure, what it's like being a young architect in a more traditional firm. There's architects that have all shifted to technology. There's how Communities that talk about sole practitioners, you know, and the basis of what it takes to run a business. How We are really interested in having conversations that move careers and the practice forward in a unique way. So It could be anything from how do you do business development differently, to how do you develop your culture more intentionally, how to what are the many different career paths that architecture can really take, and how how do I take steps to follow those different paths?

B Yeah. And I'm also really interested in all the folks that are interested in having deep dive conversations on entrepreneurship. And they know we're talking about having that group as well. So how how does this look and, like, what how do people participate?

A Yeah. So actually, when this episode airs, we'll have opened a application process. And the reason why we're doing an application process is twofold. We really want to make sure that we bring together individuals that are truly forward thinking and talking about evolving how their careers and evolving the practice of architecture. 2, we are trying to grow the community how intentionally, and I think you'll be hearing a lot about intentionality over this year. But rather than letting anyone register and become a part part of the community at any time. We will be accepting a limited number of individuals on a rolling basis how Each month to make sure that it remains active and that people really stay engaged.

B For those who are considering this, we're looking forward to meeting you and having additional conversations in the months to come. And if you've been listening, we really appreciate you too, and we're glad that you're hanging on and joining us for the upcoming season. So I know we've covered a lot in this 1st episode, but, clearly, we're excited. We have a lot to offer, And we're growing a lot of different resources for our listeners. So any way that you wanna get involved, we're trying to give you something that you can tap into to get more information about the topics that we're discussing and, of course, give you a place to engage more with our guests.

A And with one another. I think bringing our listeners how are equally important for us. And on that note, tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice of architecture dot how to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us Han.

A And if you wanna take your career or practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, And we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by by visiting gablmedia.com.

A We are also looking for sponsors who want to partner with us in 2021 and beyond. If that's you, how Please contact me directly at evelyn@practiceofarchitecture.com.

B If you like the research we're doing here, please help us out by leaving a rating or review on Apple. We appreciate you subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

A Don't forget to share with your friends, how And feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you're interested in hearing from. Thanks for listening, and see you next