Techniques for Effective People Management

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners.

A So this episode is a skills based episode. We're looking, there are

B a few episodes throughout the season where we're looking specifically how business skills and how individuals can improve from within an organization. This one is focusing on people management. I first learned about our guest when I participated in a workshop that was hosted by the general assembly called how to be an effective manager. And Forum impressed me with her coaching abilities and her specific tactics and, basically, strategies that she presented, not only on the roles and responsibilities of a manager, but also, like, common areas where new managers often struggle.

A So the questions that we're going to be asking and addressing are, you know, how do I go from managing to leading? How and what is really effective management, especially in the changing climate with a hybrid workplace. How

B and what's unique about Forum's point of view and her coaching is her emphasis on helping new and mid level managers. And this is often a group who is overlooked and has a lack of support around them, especially when they're moving through their career. There aren't a lot of training options available for mid level managers in an AEC firm. And so we wanted to invite her on because She's actually talking about how to coach, and her business is leveraging technology to make coaching more accessible, scalable, tangible, and results driven in an effort to support a wider audience of growing leaders.

A So I'm gonna go ahead with her bio. After starting her career in consulting, Forum left everything she knew to cofound an innovative coaching company. She helps her clients accelerate their success how by leveraging her consulting background of driving results through data while combining her strengths of empathy and individuality. How Forum has been featured in publications like CNBC, The Chicago Tribune, and Inc, where she shares her vision of making coaching accessible to people of all age groups and socioeconomic statuses. Forum is an adjunct faculty member at Northwestern University and has a master's in learning and organizational change with her coaching certification in organizational and leadership coaching from Northwestern University. She is a mother, a wife, and a passionate individual who's driven to empower those around her. She recently had another child how And join us right before leaving on maternity leave.

B And Amelavita, her company, is an innovative career leadership life and health coaching company centered around the understanding that you can and should love your life. AmlaVita uses a proprietary blend of online e coaching modules with 1 on 1 virtual sessions with your personally matched coach how to help its members create meaningful, measurable change in their lives.

A Let's cut to the interview.

C I am the chief coaching officer and co hunger of Amelavita. A little bit about me personally before I go into what Amelavita is. I am I was born and raised in India. Moved here, to the US when I was 9. It was a pretty interesting transition. We didn't know English, and we moved in with my family who cousins we had never met before And just try to figure out, like, how to assimilate in the American culture and learn the language and, you know, really drastic how Shift in that, but it was I I mentioned this because it really carries with me and also how I show up as a coach, but also the trajectory that I've been on, how some of those values get informed within Amelavita and the culture that we have. You know? So fast forward, I, you know, started my Career in consulting. I was in healthcare consulting and realized that I wanted to do a little bit more, but didn't know what it was.

C You know, that that age old question, What do I wanna do with my life? And I didn't know how to answer that. So the first thing that I did was figure out how do I grow myself beyond just working. And I found my this program at Northwestern how Called learning an organizational change, and I thought it was fascinating, especially the way that it played into the consulting realm. So I started doing my master's part time, And the first thing that they did and their philosophy was if you wanna be a changed leader, you need to be a leader yourself, which means you need to know who you are. How Therefore, we're gonna give you a leadership coach, and that was my 1st ever entry and exposure to coaching. And the 1st hour in, I still remember Of my 1st coaching session, I was like, oh my god. I cannot believe that there's so many things I still don't know about myself. How How do I have this many blind spots? How is it that 1 person was able to just help me figure out or understand that there was a better way to do something? How And I've been in so many training sessions before, but this was just drastic in how powerful it was.

C And so I started getting really intrigued in the coaching realm, and I how to do more research and found out that there was also a coaching program at Northwestern. So I also then started doing my coaching certification in organizational leadership coaching. Fast forward to all of that, I finished my coaching certification, and I realized that I wanted to do coaching, not consulting. Very big differences, but also a lot of overlaps. And so when I made the had that realization of I wanna do coaching, I didn't know what that looked like. I just knew that I wanted to practice it somehow. And at that time, you know, when the universe wants to tell you something, they really wanna tell you something. At that time, I got introduced to my now business partner, Nicole, how Who had gotten also from a consulting background.

C She got promoted. And as part of a promotion benefit, she received a leadership coach. And she didn't believe in coaching at all either. And after she got coaching, she's like, woah. This is actually pretty cool. And so her thought was, how do we build a coaching industry or business around making coaching a little bit more, I'm gonna say consulting rigor, With more accessibility and more innovative, given that the coaching industry has not been disrupted for decades. And here I am thinking, how do I just coach? So Nicole's like, I wanna build a coaching business. I'm like, well, I just wanna coach.

C And so we started Amolavita. How AmlaVita, what it stands for is love life. Our whole intent is you should be able to love what you're doing because we came from that background of we were burned out consultants. We didn't know what next was, but we also didn't wanna sacrifice money. You know, it's like I don't wanna sacrifice money to do something I love, And we had that or mentality. It's make money or enjoy your life, but not the and, which is you can do something you're passionate about and make money And make sure that you're enjoying what you're doing. So we named our company Amelavita with the sense of we wanna make coaching more accessible. We wanna infuse results and process into coaching, and we wanna be able to make coaching more innovative, k a leverage technology.

C So So that's how we started about 5 years back.

B Wow. So yeah. And I think you are doing something pretty unique with your, how Coaching practice, it seems pretty unique that you're able to bring on so many different coaches and you offer different services to different, Like, you do individual. You also do corporate. You have, like, a it feels like you have a team around you that's able to offer a lot of diverse types of coaching for different settings, which is unique to me.

C Yeah. Very astute of you to point that out, Jane. You know, our when we how We kind of stumbled upon this idea of what we call a coach's platform. You know, at first, when we started Amoebita, we just thought We just wanted to be, you know, the coaching company where the name the reputation was there, and I'm gonna use the word I'm gonna use the analogy of, like, Costco. I'm obsessed with Costco because I know that if I ever need something, something doesn't work, I can rely on them to have the high quality. And if it doesn't work out, they have that high customer satisfaction. And so when Nicole and I started AmlaVita, we thought, how do we be a company where If you have a coaching need, you know you can go there for reliable, certified, high quality coaching, that your goals are gonna be met and you're gonna be treated with so much care and attention because ultimately that's what matters. I mean, in coaching, we talk about so many vulnerable things that are personal how us no matter what it is that you're talking about.

C And, you know, as we were starting to grow, we just started to realize that there was so much interest in coaches who wanted to be part of this mission and who wanted to be part of a team. And so we opened that up and we because we started looking at the industry, and it's either you're a solopreneur, which means you're a one stop you're you're the you're the business owner, marketing, finance, legal, and the coach Mhmm. Or you're this big Consulting coaching firm where you do a little bit of consulting, a little bit of coaching, and what we found was the solopreneurs where how They could be across any and every industry. The bigger companies like your Korn Ferry, they were specific how certain types of organizations who had a lot of access to resources. Mhmm. They were usually how Because of financial resources targeted for organizations like who had, you know, senior executives and how with a lot of money to spend, but then it's like there was nothing in the middle. And if you look at there was a sliver of organizations like ours how Where if you did wanna have different types of coaches, they were all contractors, but not within the firm. So we are like, okay, there has to be a better way where our clients can have consistent experience no matter who you get coached by.

C But our coaches also have to feel like they're part of something together. So we built this coaches platform where when our coaches are working with AmoVida, they work exclusively with AmoVida. They define their own hours and stuff, but they work exclusively with us. And every coach has their own niche and specialty. To your point, you said we do, You know, we have career coaching. We have life coaching. We have health and wellness coaching. Then we do coaching, leadership coaching on the individual side.

C Plus with organizations. We do workshops. We work with higher ed programs. We need to be able to make sure that we have the right fit how for the right type of individual or goal. But at the same time, everyone should go to Amla Vida and have a consistent experience, how should have a consistent process, should know that I'm gonna get results, and that's kind of how we started our what we're how Call, like, our coaches platform where our coaches work exclusively with us.

B So the first time I learned about what you're doing was through a workshop that you are offering through the general assembly on being an effective manager. And the specific thing that stood out to me that I thought was extremely how Poignant of you to recognize is that this idea that leadership skills are not typically being taught to mid level managers, how And, there there's more of an emphasis on training senior leadership and supporting, resources around those, how Like that core executive team or the core management team. So I wanted to ask you to expand on that idea and and how you found that niche and then also how you figured out how to start teaching in that space.

C Great question, Janine. So, this kind of goes back a little bit of history in coaching space. So coaching is usually 1 on 1 like this. So you set up a time with a client, you have a 1 on 1 conversation. So it does take a lot. It's it's time constrained. In addition to that, it's also very historically how expensive, especially if you're going with, you know, like a highly qualified trained coach. It becomes very expensive.

C Usually, the senior executive team is the smallest team, and then it's like a pyramid, and then it just gets more and more individuals, which means you cannot afford how Typically, to have 1 on 1 conversations at all levels, hence, why it's typically been reserved for executives. Harvard Business Review did this, research, and they called it the 12 year gap, or at least we call it the 12 year gap trap. But, essentially, in that research, what they found is you typically get promoted to become a people manager where you're responsible how individual's career trajectory at the age of 30. At the age of 42 is when you get your 1st formal training, how such as in coaching. That's 12 years of you just winging it. That's 12 years of a lot of habits being formed. That's 12 years of Especially if you think about being a manager for the 1st time, one, your whole identity is shook in because you're like, wait, I used to be so good at what I used to do, which is why you made me a manager, And now I have to redefine who I am. Now I need to also figure out how to manage other people while being successful in my role.

C Also figure out how to influence and keep my boss happy and all that stuff that happens, which can put you in this swirl and not make you productive because you don't necessarily have the right tools. And when people think, well, we're gonna do new management trainings, it's like, okay, so how to run an effective meeting? That could those are tactical things that can only get you so much. How The complexity of being a people manager is people. Everyone is different. And to be able to understand how to manage, You can do that when you know yourself, which is the biggest disconnecting gap. You can learn to coach others when you get coached, which means you have to understand your tendencies. What are your blind spots? What do you do, and what do you need to know? And so kind of going into this 12 year gap how Concept. We thought well, typically, before all of these habits are already how being formed, and you say, well, this is how I've been doing it.

C It's not that people can't change later, they absolutely can. It's just a little bit harder. Also, when they need it the most, it's not there. So our intent is how do you go from being that individual contributor and or the mindset of, okay, I've I've gotten the basics, the foundations how To now I can take myself to the next level. So from manager to leader. And we think about that shift from manager to leader, how You think about the comp individual components, skills that basically coaches use, like how do I actively listen to what you're saying and not saying? How do I ask you questions to help you identify the problem and the solution rather than me just telling you what to do? How do I empower you and delegate more effectively so that you're learning, but at the same time, I'm challenging you to get outside of your comfort zone. How do I understand what motivates you? Maybe the mental models you have and why you do what you do. And these are the skills that are typically not how taught because, one, you can't just Google it.

C Also, you know, these are the things that are individual to the person. You know, Janine, what how The way that you approach feedback and conflict is probably very different than the way Evelyn approaches it. And so understanding, well, what's your relationship to that? How what's holding you back? How do you now tailor that to the context around you? That's the type of coaching that we wanna get to. Now The question is, well, how do you how do you bring the cost down? What does that look like? And the answer to that the short answer to that with us is That's really where our technology comes in. Our intent is to be able to integrate what we call them e coaching technology, which mimics a coaching conversation. And so our intent is to be able to have you do a lot of those self guided reflection before you meet with your coach, how To give you frameworks before you meet with your coach when we've identified now that there is about 13 skills or so that we realize that most people at that mid level management Title don't have. Mhmm. Like active listening, deep questioning, how to have coaching conversations, understanding mindsets, mental models, etcetera.

C How What will happen is we assign these modules to you. You go through these frameworks, and now you come up with some at least a foundational understanding. How You've done a lot of reflection. That information also goes to your coach so that when you meet with your coach, it's not how Saying, so, Janine, so let's talk about let me explain to you the basics of feedback. But rather, you would have reflected and said, You know, I find feedback I realize now from this these reflections and learning the framework that I find feedback really challenging with a peer, especially those who tend to get defensive, and that's when I just shut down. Okay. Now, Janine, we're gonna use an hour of our conversation to dig into that. How That's how we can have less coaching conversations, but they're a lot more effective.

C And now your time for execution is a lot shorter because you've done a lot of the prep work.

B That's a great point. So really understanding the individual perspective, and rather than coming in and teaching the overall big picture of ideas, how narrowing in on what specific people need, and that's really the the gift within coaching is trying to really tap into individual communication and understanding around specific issues.

C Exactly. I mean, think about like, just take sports coaches. They look at they watch the sports players on the field, and they're constantly looking at what are you doing well, where where might be the misstep, how or what are the patterns that I'm I'm able to observe because I'm not in the boots on the ground. And then the coach effectively has their coaching how with individual players, and then they can look at things collectively. But it's always understanding, well, what do you what are you doing well? Where do you need to pivot? And that's what a lot of that's what coaching is and coaching does is that to be able to understand what's working for you, where are your blind spots, how can I hold up a mirror for you to be able to learn that and then improve?

A So you talked about a lot about the 12 years that the 12 year trap, Which is an interesting like, now I have to go look that up. But I also know that Amelavita kind of adopted specific wording around that. And you mentioned a few of the skills that mid level managers you find are often missing, communication being a big one because everybody is different. Are there other skills that mid level managers tend how need additional support around, or is it truly just so variable from person to person?

C Yeah. That's a really great question. I think the big thing, if I can take a step back, is understanding from the mid level perspective, how do I go from managing to leading slash coaching. And we adapted you know, we have a model called RISE, how Which is what we use to, you you know, to say, this is when you should manage, and we define what management is. That's when you're tactically telling someone what to do how Or you're teaching somebody what to do, whereas coaching, the philosophy of coaching or leading is I'm not gonna give you a fish, I'm gonna how Show you how to get a fish. Right? Because that way, you're self sustaining. That way, you can be an owner of your problem and the solution, and there's no dependency on me. That's how you elevate yourself.

C How And so the first thing that we notice that becomes a really big moment, especially for mid level managers, is how When do I need to manage, and when do I need to coach? And that's where we use the acronym RISE. There's a right or wrong answer, you should manage, meaning You're not gonna coach someone and say, what do you think? And then say, wrong. Right? Especially because the one that how frustrates the other person. Mhmm. If there's a right or wrong, coaching means that sometimes there isn't. There's so many paths that you can go. So how You wanna manage or tell them when there's a right or wrong. No need to coach there.

C The I in RIE stands for inexperienced. How Coaching philosophy says you have to have basic knowledge and understanding. I can't ask somebody who how is new to the organization to say, well, what do you think about how we should approach this website design when they have zero background? How That's the time to teach. Once you've done the teaching and they have the foundational skill, then you can go on to the coaching component. The s is for specific. How Is there a specific strategy or situation? This is typically true, especially when you have big initiatives or you're in a compliant industry where it's like there's this is what has to happen. The how it happens maybe can be the coaching conversation, but sometimes you do need to specify this is what we're working towards. And the e is for essential.

C If something is urgent, you don't have time to coach. You're not gonna coach someone outside of a burning building and say, well, how do you think we should exit? You're gonna say get out, and then you'll have the coaching debrief after. And so what we find is when you're a new time manager, which how When you're a first time manager, because you're just learning the basics, what you have appetite for are things like, how do I run an effective meeting? How What do I do in my 1 on ones? You know? And those are those are her very hard skills, but I'm calling them basic in that. How Those are the things that you need to before you can even get to that next level of management or leadership, which are these coach like abilities.

A How So you did something very interesting there that I actually haven't heard a lot of coaches do. You are essentially how Telling the mid level managers and grouping coaching and leadership into 1. Can you talk a little bit about that if you understand where I'm going? Because most, I don't think most coaches would combine those 2 words in a similar way as you have.

C Yeah. There's a lot of taboo in that. Sometimes when people think coach, people are like, oh, You know, it's like this woo woo hippie dippy thing. And what we are honestly, my philosophy is leader as coach. What is my job as a coach? And this is our my point of view and my take, Amla Vida's point of view and take. My job as a coach is to make sure that how Whatever goals you have, you're successful in achieving your goals in your way. That you learn the skills to be self sustaining, how that you are able to go through a change. Think about the best leaders we have.

C Are they the ones who are forcing that on you, or are they helping and enabling you to help go through whatever change that you wanted to go through, whether it's small or big, Whatever goals you have. And what I find is the best type of leadership Actually integrates, I would say, the core coaching skills, which is why I interchangeably say leadership and coaching. How The core coaching skills are active listening. Are you listening to what someone is saying and not saying? How Or are you just taking things from surface level? What what someone is you know, it's like, oh, yeah. Okay. Great. I'm glad you agree. How Oh, Janine, you said you were stressed out.

C Well, that sucks. Rather, listening to, oh, Evelyn, wow, you have 2 kids at home. That must be really hard and managing all this other stuff. How are you handling it? Now I'm pulling more out. The next component to that is questioning. The best questions are those that get you to think. I was listening to that, or watching that, Bill Gates documentary on Netflix. And one of the things that, you know, he people were saying is that the thing that he does, he doesn't have to be a subject matter expert.

C How You don't have to be a subject matter expert to be a good leader or coach. What Bill Gates does really well is he asks good questions, which make you how Pause and say, maybe there's a different way to think about it, a k a maybe there's a different problem I need to solve. And the hardest thing is to figure out what problem statement am I solving for. Albert Einstein said, give me 60 minutes, and I'm gonna spend 55 of them on the problem first how because a solution is easy, and that's what a coach does. And that's where, I think, where good effective leadership is.

A How do you teach people? Because I would say we have a lot of stubborn people in the industry. I don't know if it's how specific to the industry. It's just the industry I know. Right? That, like, it's my way or the highway. This is the way we've always done things, and that's usually coming down from leadership. Let alone, like, being hammered into you, like, from day 1 As as an intern, like, how how do you make those individuals more more pliable or or open to listening to what you have to say?

C How Well, here's the thing. Unless you're coaching ready and you're you want to change, I can't force you to change. How So that's that's step number 1. I think the other thing is being able to experiment and try because we have And this is with anything. This we resist change constantly. I mean, my my whole master's was in change management, which is the, you know, the how The re there's a reason why there's a master's behind it is because it's so hard for us to change. And the reason why we can is hard for us to change is because it's how Helped us get through what we have so far. So therefore, we can justify, well, why would I change if things have been working so far? I'm okay with this.

C I don't know what it's going to look like if I do change, so why would I then even take that risk? So when someone says how Or is, like, well, this is the way it's been. Do it as I am telling you. The first thing is being open to knowing, are you okay to experiment? How If you think of something as an experimentation, you're a lot more likely to say, okay. I'm willing to try. The other part is we don't need to do drastic things. It's small things at a time. Think about something that has very low consequences or Is there maybe a low profile task or project or initiative that you can do controlled experiments with? Now, The next part of that would be asking yourself, am I proposing things because it's a process, or is it a preference? Meaning, is it my preference or is this actually a process? A process that's going to change the outcome of the deliverable. How A process that a client would like, a process that helps us with efficiency, or is it because I just like to look at things in a 12 font, you know, times new roman with certain colors, so therefore, this is what I'm dictating.

C So first, recognize preference versus process. Once you do, then experiment. Maybe it's, I'm gonna take that low hanging fruit, the thing that doesn't have as much consequences, right, And just give a very broad, here's what needs here's what the end goal looks like. This is what the vision is. You figure out how it's gonna be and just see what happens. I can't tell you how many times I have this conversation in in coaching conversations. And every time the client ends a call, he's like, gosh. You know, I I don't know about this.

C This seems scary. But that's part of the accountability, and it's like, well, I want you to how Try it. And just do pick 1 thing, and I want you to commit to me that you're gonna do it one time this week, and they do. How And they either verify their assumptions or they break their assumptions. And that's step number 1 to learning and change. You don't know until you try. And when what typically happens is client will come back, and she or he will say, okay. Not the way I would have liked it, but I actually learned something in how they're thinking.

C I learned that maybe they don't they aren't thinking strategically as I am, how Or, they had a much better way than I did, and that makes my life easier now how Because I can trust that they can have more and more added responsibility.

B I think that hits into one of the things I brought up During your workshop, I asked you about micromanagers. There were a lot of really great things, by the way, in your workshop, and this is just one of the ideas that we discussed, but it is a frequent thing in our industry. There are chronic micromanagers or people who have to work for chronic micromanagers. So I'm wondering similar to where you were heading in that last question if there are any words of advice you could share about how to Either step out of those issues or learn to deal with someone who has those issues better.

C Well, the first thing I would wanna know is what the reason why someone micromanages, well, several reasons, how is understanding why that is. So, for example, I get into micromanagement mode when I feel like I don't have the communication I need. Somebody else might get into the micromanagement mode when they feel like they are not able to have that control that they're looking for, a k a, well, what does control look like for you? How What do you need from me to be able to step out of it? So to go down to the root cause, the first how is to define what does micromanagement mean to you as an individual. If I'm working with 3 different direct reports, I have how Sally, I have Tom, and I have Desiree. With Sally, Tom, and Desiree, I check-in with them 2 times a day. One time in the morning, one time in the afternoon. And I say, hey, Sally. How's it going? What do you need from me? Hey, Tom.

C How's it going? What do you need from me? Desiree, how's it going? What do you need from me? And I do that again in the afternoon. And now Sally is saying to me or Sally's thinking, how I don't understand why Forum is always checking in on me. What Tom might be thinking is, Why is forum like, why is she never there? She only checks in with me 2 times a day. And what Desiree's thinking is, this is great. This is exactly what I need. How And here's what I'm thinking. I'm such a good manager. I'm always available to my to my direct reports.

C My actions are the same. I follow-up with every single one of them two times. I have 4 different reactions. My reaction is different, maybe most aligned with Desiree. How Tom and Sally hate my guts in that one thinks I'm not there enough, and the other one thinks I'm micromanaging. It's because we have different definitions of what support looks like. How So step number 1 is define it. So we get so caught up in using words and don't realize that the words have different meanings to us.

C So define what the action or the behavior is. What Sally might say to me is, form, when you come to check-in with me 2 times a day, how it feels like to me that you don't trust what I'm working on. What do you need from me in order for you to know what I'm working on at all times. Now there's a conversation or potentially an uncomfortable one, but those are the conversations we need to have in the workplace.

A I think that's really poignant.

B It is.

A I'm interested in your perspective as a lot of how Teams are working remotely now, and unfortunately, especially with the situation in the US, we'll probably continue to do so for the majority of the year. How have those type of skills changed now that most of the communication is happening via Zoom. And, especially, I feel like the importance of the written being able to to to type and write how Has become elevated. I'd love to get your opinion on that now, you know, with all of these virtual channels that we're communicating through.

C How Yeah. I think the big one is being able to understand communication preferences for your teams, especially as a manager, and then to do that as a team. How For example, we use Slack at our workplace. And Slack is great, but at the same time, I'm in meetings all day. So if you're still waiting for me to respond to you on Slack, you're not gonna hear from me until I move the day. In addition to that, how I would prefer that we don't just keep Slacking or emailing back and forth. If you have something, just call me and make it 1 minute, you know, and we'll get that problem solved. So that's my preference, though, but that's not everyone else's preference.

C So it's kind of like a negotiation slash a compromise of, well, what do you need to, one, feel connected how To make sure that you have support, whatever support looks like for you. Now you have to define that. Right? Define what connected means, define what support means, how and come up with, well, here's what I would prefer. This is what you would prefer. Now what do we mutually agree on? The other thing that we've done a lot of workshops around this now, especially with global teams, people on different regions, time zones, and also with What we're noticing and the feedback that we're getting is more and more teams are feeling disconnected from a camaraderie, from patients. Everything just feels so transactional. I'm in my own bubble now, so therefore, my fuse is a lot shorter. It's so important to be able to mimic your culture.

C And when I say mimic your culture, I'm not saying to take the same exact things and literally translate it verbatim in the virtual space, but to define the essence of, well, as a team, what do we stand for? What's important to us? What are our nonnegotiables? Now how do we recreate that virtually? And you do have to get creative, but that's a shared problem statement that everyone can have an input on and to make sure that you don't lose sight of that. Just because you're virtual doesn't mean you don't have culture. You absolutely have culture. You just have to figure out what that looks like now in a virtual environment.

B That's a really good point. I know a lot of companies that I've spoken with are also grappling with that that same question, so I know they'll relate. Are there certain skills that you think, individual managers could consider in in their own work to Help elevate and improve some of that miscommunication that's happening specific to project deadlines, like how The project manager who feels underwater in some ways, they feel like they have the responsibility of the office, the responsibility of their team, the responsibility of the deliverables. And perhaps the question is really around Allowing themself more space to figure out what their team needs. That might feel overwhelming for some people to take a step back and just how Allow more space in order to bring clarity around some of

C this communication piece. I think the first thing as a as a manager, One, we feel like we bear the burden of the financial responsibilities of the organization. We feel the burden of the growth and development of our team. We feel the burden of making sure we're managing our clients and the projects and the deliverables. Therefore, I'm it's it's the last person that then gets prioritizes myself or the project manager themselves. The first thing I would challenge with is, why is it only your responsibility? We're all owners how in making sure that the organization is successful. We're all owners in making sure the client is successful, how and making sure the team is successful. We all play different roles in how that happens, but we all are owners in making that happen.

C So to feel like you bear the responsibility to not only own the problem, but to solve the problem is where I would challenge the thinking right away. I might even go about suggesting bring that up as a to the team and say, okay. You know, one of the things that we all how Collectively you need to think about, and it's 1 problem statement at a time. How do we all make sure that we're all getting what we need from one another how And can still effectively perform, but also take care of ourselves knowing that we may have little kids at home or that we need to have better boundaries. Some of the workshops that we do is on that. You know, we facilitate the conversation because sometimes managers don't know how to have that conversation of, how do I communicate for what I need? Because I don't want to let someone else down. I don't want someone to feel like I'm disappointing them. Well, 1, you're making an assumption that you might be a disappointing someone.

C You 2 have to know it and name it, how And then you can decide whether or not that's appropriate for the organization. But without knowing it and naming it, you're just you you're you're nowhere. How And so step number 1 is know it and name it. Then decide, well, what does that mean for us as an organization or as a team? What are my nonnegotiables? What are my boundaries? What do I need to perform? What does self care look like? How can I set the expectations that, hey, you know, because I have how Kids, lunchtime, I have to be like, I have to physically step away, which means what you will notice is I will not be available from 12 to 1, let's say? Now that you've provided context to that, if others didn't know that, they might be making assumptions like, Evelyn, why are you all of a sudden how Away from your computer, and I don't see that little green sign next to your name for a few hours. Are you not working? What's happening. Are you disconnected? Are you disengaged? And people start to make assumptions. When we make assumptions, we make even more assumptions, how And they become so magnified that you're so far off from the truth. So the intent is to over communicate how And let people know what it is that you're doing, when you're doing it, and to be part of something together, to share and solve problems together.

C How Ultimately, the manager is gonna have the final say. But now people feel like they also share the responsibility. How I

A think that's an important distinction from an example you gave earlier where, like, as somebody new to the organization, they might not have the experience to x, how But at the same time, they are a team member, and I think everyone how From per the person from the interns, from the person that it's their 1st day of work, I think everyone starting, and it's a good reminder to middle managers, how has feels that they have a responsibility towards raising the bar or raising the output of how the organization as a whole. And I feel like sometimes middle managers forget that, or I'm not a millennial, so I'm gonna say, you know, the millennials are x, y, and z, and they're not listening to me. But I think it's a good reminder that how Everyone kind of wants to participate. I would even say go as so far as to say the millennials really wanna participate, so give them a reason to show up every day.

C How Exactly. People want ownership. People want ownership if they feel like something is theirs no matter what that is. You know, could we just go back to your school days, like, in middle school, when you own something or you felt like you were this was your sole responsibility, how Didn't matter what it was, but then you took so much pride in it because it had your name stamped on it, and you did it. And there was that sense of pride, and that's what people feel when they feel a shared ownership.

A And I think what is really important to what you're saying too is you've essentially given a case study of how to give people that ownership. I think how Most individuals in architecture hear that, or most middle managers, and they say, well, you know, they don't have any financial responsibility. Like, they they aren't a part of this, so so thank you for kind of sharing that case example.

B That that's what really stood out to me in your workshop was Watching you model how to give feedback, and you've done it already twice in 2 examples on this, how Quick recording. I wanted to give you a chance. If there's anything that you wanna share about some of the work that your company is doing or ways that people could how Sit in on a workshop you're offering. Please let us know because I think that they would find value in that.

C Yeah. No. Thank you. Thank you for how Sharing that feedback as well. I think, the kind of going to address that point, we get so caught up in frameworks how And concepts that it's hard to say, okay, but tactically what does that mean? Tactically what does that mean? And that tactic is step number 1 in having the foundation. The next part is, what does it mean for me? That's where the coaching comes in. What does this mean for me? How Something that works for me doesn't mean it's gonna work for you. So you have to personalize it in your context and what you already have working with you.

C In terms of, you know, kind of what does that look like now as you're listening to this? If I am interested in exploring coaching in any way, how The first step is to get curious. Figure out whether or not you're coaching ready. That's my first task. How What I mean by coaching ready is, are you in a place of learning? Are you in a place of wanting to get uncomfortable, to challenge yourself, to go from how Good to great. You know, this is coaching is not something that you do because you want to get coached out of the organization. How Coaching is something you do to upscale yourself, to get yourself to the next level, and that means whether it's investing how Out of your own pocket or getting your organization to invest in your growth. I will say you will be surprised how many organizations how Should you go to them and say, you know, I really want I've had thought about that there's a way for me to get better performance for myself and my team, and I wanna invest in leadership coaching. How Most organizations are very receptive to that, especially for professional development budget.

C So have that conversation, how Make a case study for yourself and partner yourself with a coach. You know, do your research. The biggest thing for coaching is making sure that you feel like there's a right how Fit. The coach that you wanna work with, you should feel comfortable because you're not gonna be having a lot of conversations with them, sometimes uncomfortable ones. It'll get vulnerable and personal as well. And so do your due diligence. Now when you're thinking about what do I look for in a coach, We have a lot of articles on that. You know, how do you even decide especially if the coaching space is new to you, what do you look for? What are the things that you wanna be well informed by? How And then also what is the process.

C And to break that down, there's a few things. Number 1, make sure that whether it's a solopreneur or a company, You're going with an organization that has certified coaches. Coaching is a very unregulated industry, which means tomorrow, you can call yourself a coach and no one will stop you. So going with a certified coach means that they've gone through a coach training program. They have hours. They have experience. You have to meet certain criteria. That's just like basic, bare minimum.

C Then the next part is, well, what type of process do you use? Do you even have a process? Whereas some coaches will be like, work with me and we'll get you there. Well, how are you gonna get me there? What is that gonna look like? Do you have technology that you use? What frameworks do you leverage. Am I gonna be working with 1 person or am I gonna have a whole coaching team behind me? At Amelavita, our thing is you're how You're gonna have different things that you're gonna wanna work on as you go through your coaching journey, and 1 coach can't fix everything for you. That's why we have so many different mentors how that we seek out so many, you know, different you don't go it's not there's usually no one stop shop. So you wanna find a a place, hopefully, that has providers that work with you. You get a whole coaching team with a main lead coach. So those are a few things to think about. Our website is alvcoaching.com.

C So you can just hop on there to check us out and, You know, schedule a free call to be able to explore if coaching is right for you.

B If a architecture studio decided to bring you in for a workshop, would you be open to something something like that.

C Absolutely. Our big thing will be understanding what does success look like, who what's who's our audience, and what's that big pain point that we wanna solve for.

A So one of the most or one of the greatest takeaways that I got out of the conversation with Forum is this how Notion of the 12 year trap and that we really shouldn't wait 12 years to begin to develop our leaders. In fact, I feel how Like that should be an ongoing thing that happens out of school. There's so many different qualities of leaders and leadership that needs to show up how along every step of the process of learning to become a better architect, that it really should be ingrained if I were to put it into the process, like, how as an intern or even as, you know, as early as day 1 of your orientation. That's just me, though.

B No. I completely agree. You know, I think We play so much and I've talked a lot about this through my own work, but we place so much emphasis on the technical skills and learning how to become an architect that often these soft skills and the people management skills take a back seat. And so I think that's really why I wanted to bring Forum on because in my own career, I watched people who were stepping into management and leadership roles not having the support they needed to learn how to lead teams, but they are completely technically competent. They just how maybe need a little bit more guidance on some of these soft skills.

A Yeah. And it's interesting to me that communication continually comes up how as something that architecture individuals that people in our profession need to continue to work on. I think it's Really not just communication, but it's also being empathetic to those on the receiving end. How She gave that great example of kind of checking in with people on regular basis. But you also need to understand how they are receiving those check ins. Right? To really make sure that communication is effective. So it's not purely just about how Sending information, but it's the timing of the information. It's how it's received.

A And it's actually I would say it's more about continuous development how of how you work with one another and how you talk to one another and how you make sure everyone is actually getting things done.

B How Forum brought up a really important leadership idea that there's a difference between management and leadership, and so those skill sets how are different, and something that I see from new managers is they're often trying to project this idea of leadership that they think, how which sometimes is actually management. There's a difference. And so I think, Forum opened up a really great framework that we can talk about in our debrief of deciding when it's appropriate to manage versus lead or in in her case, she's explaining the idea of coaching in terms of leadership. So that idea was RISE, and I thought we could just, you know, quickly reflect on that.

A Yeah. So if I, you know, if I think about the r in RISE, the right or wrong answers. I think there's absolutely a time that you need to just tell people what you want so they can actually meet your expectations. I think how Too often, we believe there's a learning that is to happen by kind of hoping people guess what I want, and it's just how It's much faster when you're direct.

B That's right. And so sometimes, like, if we think about, I don't know, specifications is a good example. Like, there are right and wrong answers. But I think there's sometimes in design problems, there's abstract solutions and, different paths things can take. And so those are the those are the opportunities to have a dialogue, a two way dialogue, and not just, decide that there there's an absolute answer to a equation. In in terms of the eye, we talked about experience, and this is a very important one because I know that anyone who's ever worked right out of school in an architect's office how is familiar with this thing that happens where you get thrown in the deep end. And, basically, the architects are looking to you, wanting you to swim, and seeing what you can how much you can, you know, like, swim on your own. But it's actually better to do a little bit of onboarding first before you throw people completely in the deep end.

B So this talks about experience. If the person doesn't have enough background, then you have to start with teaching. You can't just how to push them out into the water. They have to have enough information from you before you can allow them the space and the freedom to for them to feel comfortable to do it on their own. So once they've had enough experience, then you let them swim on their own. Then you can coach them versus how to manage them.

A Right. And s specifically focuses on specific. I didn't mean to use the word specific twice. If there are processes with a very specific way of doing things, and the firm has kind of weighed the pros and cons about how why that should be done, then you just kind of have to manage people through that. This is the way we do it. This is why we do it. I think alternatively, if you're gonna say, But if you find there is an a way to do it quicker, faster, differently, that leads to how a new outcome that might be better, then then that's an opportunity to coach. For me, a great example of that is there are so many how younger individuals that are so much better at infographics than I am, that I might throw an idea out.

A How And then I just might leave it to them as to, like like, think of several different ways to interpret this. So it's It's more of a coaching opportunity rather than kind of a managing opportunity.

B And the last part of RISE e is essential. And so if something's urgent and you don't have time to coach, then you're, of course, gonna manage first. And Forum gave the example of if the building's on fire, you're not gonna coach them on how to get out of the building. You're just gonna say, get out of the building. And so then you wanna make sure and I think this is where Sometimes architects miss an opportunity. It's it's after the emergency's over that you actually go into a coaching conversation. And so having that Debrief is very important, and I think when you don't have it, that's where there's a huge missed opportunity in in a really great relationship between a manager and a a staff team member.

A And I think there's one also important aspect of essential that if you are assigning anyone a task how And it is, like, a part of this essential work stream. They should be able to run with it right away. If you don't have time to manage how Then then also, I think it's just like maybe you need to consider, 1, taking it on yourself if it's going to be one of those things where, like, I could just could've done it better if I did it myself or to just, you know, bringing bringing on a team member that you know can can how Manage through that immediacy. There just will be inevitably with any type of how The work we do. There will be those moments where you just need the right people at the right time to get things done and get get things over the finish

B and that gets into a whole staffing conversation, which is not putting people who are not experienced at the right levels on the task that you need urgently. Yes. But so this whole conversation got me thinking about micromanagement, which I asked how for I'm about in the interview, and I actually asked her about it in the workshop also. But her feedback to me on this a topic really reframe my own assumptions about micromanagement. I've felt micromanaged at different points in my career, and how It it was interesting because I always thought micromanagement was purely an issue of control, and being architects, we all have control issues. So, But what she really helped me see is that it's an issue of communication preference also. So, you know, we have different needs around control and communication. And the thing to practice is communicating what level of information you need or even managing up and saying, hey, you know, this is what I can do for you to help ease your worry about what you need in terms of delivery or communication.

B It's it's sitting on this whole rabbit hole, Evelyn and I ended up finding a great podcast micromanaging. If anyone's interested in that topic further, I'll link it in the show notes, but it just talks about some research that Harvard Business Review did around micromanaging.

A Yeah. I think there's a whole perspective that I have been talking to relative to the hybrid practice too and managing for, like, time in seats versus building a trust and managing how Managing expectations and under like, truly understanding that the that individual has what they need to get What you need done. Right? It's more about trust. And I almost think there is this misplaced lack of confidence how In managers, we place so much of the fault of our lower level employees and our interns, and the how fact that what they are doing is because that they don't have the experience, that they, you know, that they aren't asking the right questions, how that they aren't they are misrepresenting themselves, you know, in terms of their ability versus what they're able to do. I think it's also how I think we have to take more responsibilities as managers that some of that how they're performing and that we actually might Be enabling them to perform at a lower level because of how we're how we are or are not setting up those individuals for success. And We can really only do that if we learn actually how to be a better manager.

B And I wanna come back to this idea around how managers who feel underwater. And I know it's not just mid level managers. It's across the board. Owners even feel stressed out, and that stress gets transferred for down to different team members. But particularly on the mid level manager role, they are trying to learn and they're trying to rise and step into this leadership potential. And there's a process that mid level managers need to go through, which is learning how to communicate for what how they need, and it's really about practicing it. And I find that coaching is a way to build that skill because it allows you the space you need to question your own assumptions, look for the gaps within your own skill set, and try new ideas out in a supported way. From my own coaching experience, what I found is that you get more and more comfortable with change and looking for variation, in your own assumptions and the way things could be.

B And the more you practice trying things differently than you would intuitively think to do. You learn that there's a lot of different ways to solve the same problem.

A How Yeah. And then the final thing that I wanna point out related to Amelavita, and I think this is true of any coaching mentor how Leadership. Growing your own abilities is is gonna be very hard, and they have acknowledged this. One size doesn't fit all. Right? They have how kind of a stable of coaches to help you with a variety of different aspects in your life. I just had an interesting how Back and forth conversation on actually, this has happened several time in just the social social groups that I'm in about, like, how Individuals wanting to find mentor mentors or or coaches. And I I think there's an acknowledgement that as you move how Through time, you're going to need need different type of mentors and different type of coaches, so acknowledge that. The coach that you need right out of school and the mentor you need to write out of school is still gonna look very different, even just a few years into the profession, and that's okay.

A But As you grow, I think the the the people and that you need to hold you up will continue to change and evolve as well. And on that note, thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

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A And if you wanna take your career or practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, and we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

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A let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing from. Thanks for listening, and see you next