Climate Action Through Entrepreneurship

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine. Hey, Evelyn. Hey, listeners. So this week on Practice Disrupted, we're exploring a little bit of architecture and with a climate action twist. And we're gonna bring on Patrick who is the cofounder of Cove tool. Janine, do you wanna go into a little bit about what Cove tool is?

B Yes. So Cove tool is an intuitive web app for Revit, ARCHICAD, Rhino, and SketchUp. It is a building design platform for intelligent performance that produces streamlined automated analysis to help architects, engineers, and contractors actors achieve energy, COVID occupancy, daylight glare, radiation water, and embodied carbon targets while reducing construction costs.

A That's a lot.

B It is a lot. And and also one of the interesting things I read on their website is that they're saying that they can help teams reduce analysis time by 66% per project by using this automated performance modeling. So I wanted to ask you, Evelyn, like, why did you wanna invite Patrick on.

A I wanted to invite Patrick on because both him and his cofounder, who actually happens to be his wife, I have a background in architecture. They came out of an architecture practice, and they have gone on this very entrepreneurship how Journey to launch this new tool. So I think, hopefully, we this episode has a little bit how For the technology people out there that are, thinking of developing their own tools. But hopefully, this episode also speaks to all of the on the young entrepreneurs out there who are, interested in potentially launching something new on their own. Janine, why don't you go ahead and read Patrick's HABBIO.

B Focusing on a crossover between architecture and technology, Patrick Chopson leads Covetool, a web based design software for buildings using machine learning and automation to drive decision making. He oversees product development and customer acquisitions as a cofounder. A graduate of Georgia Tech with his master's in high performance buildings, he is a licensed architect with over 16 years of experience in architecture, research, and mechanical engineering firms. Prior to COVTool, he cofounded a successful building performance consulting a firm called PatternRD. Multiple publications including Architect Magazine, TechCrunch, Site Selection, and ArcDaily and more have published his work.

A Alright. Let's cut to the interview.

C Sure. Yeah. So, I guess I'm one of the cofounders of how At COVE tool, I kinda follow more of the product side of things. Whereas, like, we have 2 other cofounders. We have Daniel, how Chopsin, who's actually my brother, and, of course, Sandy Pahudra, who's our CEO. She's also my wife

A as well. So it's a nice, like, how

C 3 person cofounding team, but, I guess a few years ago, Sandeep and I, we start our own consulting practice called Pattern R&D. So then we were doing, like, architecture. I'm a licensed architect, and Sandeep's, are both energy modelers. So we were doing a lot of, like, simulations and doing stuff with, how Like, you know, automating our simulations, then we realized that it would be a lot better if we could affect more buildings, if we could automate those things how together and actually make a piece of software. So then we talked to Daniel, my brother. We got him to leave his high paying job at, this really cool how software company that does financial software. And so he came over and helped us build, a platform.

B And how long were you practicing in traditional practice before you made this jump.

A Oh,

C yeah. I guess my 1st architecture job as an intern was, like, in 2000 how and then went to school becoming a mechanical engineer and also an architect at the same time. Ended up just finishing the architecture how degree. And then, I guess my Sandy and I, we met at Georgia Tech. I guess that would be, like, 2013. And so after we graduated, we went and worked how Perkins and WIL and their research labs. They have this really cool research lab that's like, this guy named John Hamaker. He's like a big proponent of practice driven research, and we worked with him how

B Oh, yeah.

A I know John.

C Yeah. Yeah.

B He's really cool guy.

C Yeah. And we just decided we'd go and then we'd start our own our own thing, for a how consulting group because in Georgia where there wasn't really any other green building consulting company that did the kind of stuff that need to

A be done.

B That's true. I was looking at that, you guys being based out of Atlanta. It's kind of a pretty special unique place to be for what you're doing.

C Yeah. I mean, like, there's there's not really a lot of folks that do that. And also, Georgia has not historically been a conservative place. So, I mean, we just went blue. So

A Mhmm.

C But, but people kind of valued, cost over sustainability, you might how So we that's how we ended up starting getting into this whole idea of cost optimization, which is was what kind of led into COVE tool, which is, how It stands for cost versus energy.

A Oh, I actually didn't know that. And when

C we first started doing it, people couldn't remember the name of our company. So they would say, like, tell me more about that COVE tool is what they would say.

A And we're like, okay.

C Well, I guess that's what we should call it. How

A I didn't realize it was kind of a a family endeavor, so that's pretty interesting. So you you guys obviously I think the decision to even start your own company is, like, a really interesting one to make. Have you always identified as entrepreneurs? Like, what you know, some people would see that, but they would hate to leave the safety of their job at a really big firm. Right. I guess, what was the mindset when you're like, we're we're gonna go out and do this?

C Well, it's like, you know, there's no really actually secure jobs really anymore. Like, even if you're at a big firm, they, you know, they staff up, and then if they don't get the project, then they have to cut, you know, 30 people from the team.

A So, you know,

C so, maybe it's better sometimes to how Like, chart your own course. But I think, for Sandeep and I, we were like, I think she was considering, you know, going back to India, how where she's from. And, and but then we were like, you know what? Maybe we should give, like, you know, this, like, you know, starting our own business a try before I do that and just see if we get anywhere how We feel like we got these cool ideas. And so we were just driving, you know, together. We're carpooling, you know, trying to be green. And, and she's like, you know what? Why don't we just start our own business? And, you know, we haven't been dating that long when we had this idea. So that was kind of scary too. But, but we just Decided to go ahead go for it, you know, and, you know, put our shingle out there and using, like, LinkedIn and different things like that to kind of build up awareness of what we were doing and then how Kind of doing a lot of networking, is what

B kinda got it off the ground. And how many years have you guys been, a

A company officially?

C Yeah. So Pattern, we started in 2015, and then we did that for a couple years, and then Cove tool was started in 2017.

A I see.

C So Yeah.

A That's not necessarily an easy year to start, even a consulting firm. So

C Yeah. It took a lot of work, but, Emory University, was one of the universities that recognized that what we were doing was significant. And so they they were among, how some of the clients, but also there is this, interesting enough, there's this engineering firm in Atlanta called Newcomb and Boyd. We knew people over there, and they were the ones who originally kind of like they were like, you know what? Why don't we just bring you guys in as consultants on one of our competitions? How We know you guys are new. You don't really have a track record, but we wanna show that we're innovative. And they were somewhat tangentially aware of what we had done, the how research lab at Perkins and Will. And so they're like, well, why don't you guys come over here and do a competition with us? So that's how most people found out about how COVE tool is through the competition for the Candida building over at Georgia Tech. Our team didn't win, but everybody found out about us and what we could through that competition in the Atlanta area.

C So they really you know, I I we'd have to say a lot of kudos to them for helping us get our consulting practice launched.

B How Yeah. That's awesome marketing. So you guys have been around 4 years, so that means you've kinda and I don't know if it's the same tech, but from my experience, like, there's kind of a threshold of, like, being a new business and then coming into a bit of maturity. So it sounds like you guys are kinda past that initial phase and into, like, actually running your company and having a product that you're selling. Have you seen a lot of transition and growth, you know, over that time with how you guys are how

C doing things? Yeah. I think, like, initially, no, it was just the 2 of us. So we built the consulting practice with architecture concurrently how Currently, because we needed revenue to keep us going, like, when we didn't have consulting projects because they take a long time to pay. So I did, like, 200 homes, in about 2 years. This is Oh, wow. So we had, like, a team of, like, 4 junior architects, and we were running how That and so that goes kind of little wheel that kept the big wheel of consulting kind of going. And then that really took off. And so I think, like, about how By the time that Pat that Cove tool is really starting to launch, we had we had been self funding the software development, through the consulting how Architecture.

C And so now we're like a team of, like, 25 people, and we raised our series a back in, I guess, I guess that was August of 2020.

A Congratulations. Yeah. I have, a few questions to hit on because, actually, I don't think a lot of architects would understand what series a is. But Now that you're at 25 people, do you miss those design days?

C I mean, it was kinda weird when I had to, like, leave behind my whole architecture practice and be like, Okay. Sorry, guys. It's all software. No more architecture. That felt strange, because, you know, you spend all those years going to school and building how firm from scratch is, like, really hard. Like, just launching that off the ground, and then they just kind of, like, hand all my projects off to other architects how that I knew. I'd be like, hey, guys. Here's 5 projects.

C Here's 10 projects. You know, like, everybody

B gets a project. That would be a

A good day to be your friend.

C How There's actually a firm here in Atlanta that started, and we gave them, like they had, like, 1 or 2 projects, and we gave them, like, 10 in, like, how One day. So they're still going strong. But, but yeah. I don't know. It's just yeah. I guess it's more like now I'm designing how how people design. So it's like I think about, like, the process, all the different things that we do, and then creating, like, a process how Driven research where it's like, okay. Here's exactly how this firm does it.

C Now let's look at how another firm does sustainability. Let's figure out, like, how those 2 things how together, how can we make a software that supports all those different workflows and ideologies. So I feel like more so now than ever, how I'm designing constantly because we're making, like, an interface that makes it so that anybody can understand how to do something how It's very, very challenging because it involves, like, graphics, but there's also, like, a spatial quality to making a website as how

B Mhmm. Definitely.

C Have to, like, think about, like, how graphics and shape of text and what kind of information are we how Like, it's all still a design problem on some level.

A Right. And I think well, I'm I'm glad actually that you said that because I feel how that so many people attribute architectural design to specifically to the built environment, and there's so many more applications of the design process that we learned and how, you're still designing for people, really. And I would I would say in so many more ways than than before, because you're not only designing for the users, but then, you know, the end users how of those users will feel the effects as well. What did you do to learn kind of the business skills that architecture and engineering school might not have given you? And

C how You tell our listeners a

A little bit about what series a funding or raising actually means, and I know it's, how It probably it it it probably wasn't, a short period in your life to get that series a funding, but, you know, to whatever extent you can kind of recap how

C Sure.

A Even emotions felt during that time. Yeah.

C Yeah. So we we raised it what they call a pre seed round first. How So that's, like, where you get, like, friends and family or, like, an angel investor. Somebody who, like, believes in the idea, but it's highly unlikely that it'll succeed. People how invest in as angels investors typically are, like, like, man, maybe there's a 1 in 100 chance it'll turn into something. And then we kinda made it how raise the seed round, which is like where you depend valuation kinda depends on your customer, the total addressable market, like how many how people could use it. And at the point we raised this seed, it wasn't immediately clear if it would succeed. But a seed round is like the investors are looking to make Something happened 1 out of 5 times, basically.

C And then the series a is, like, a really big deal because it's, like, only 4% of tech companies ever reach, how Series a. So it's, like, really hard to get to that point. So you have to be at least a1000000 in ARR, how Annual recurring revenue to be able to get to series a more more than likely.

B Wow. And it it's kinda special because you are in the AEC field, so so you're competing probably against tech companies that are thinking about it from a completely different angle and industry point of view. So in that regard, you're kind of in a unique batch of companies in and of itself. I feel like we should pause and also talk about what Covetul does and and the, like, you know, benefit that users can gain by using it.

C Sure. I mean, it's a web based platform that allows you to run automated simulations how Daylight and energy and glare and cost optimization, a bunch of other things, so water. So it allows you to kind of like do all your schematic level, how sustainability stuff that you might hire, consultants to do. So primarily, Cove tool competes against people, you know, maybe a consultant, or it's used by consultants. How One of

B the 2. And, historically, like, I know especially in the past decade, I know a lot of people who have specialized in sustainability for their careers in AEC, and they you know, I have many friends that work on the building scientist side of things, and they're constantly trying to, how Pull this data in. So I think the value that, if I understand correctly, is that this is automated, and it brings all of those data points together in one kind of concise platform that you can use to really adjust the design parameters of your building.

C Right. So, like, typically, most people, how Right. Like, only a specialist can do it. And so that's why we see very few projects are ever simulated. Because if you kinda do the math and back your way out, how Cost maybe 50 k to do a really good consulting project. And so you kind of think about what what projects out there have how to spend 50 k on something. And you want that to probably be about, like, 1% of the fee or 2% maybe maximum. So that means that how There's a very select number of projects.

C And if you're a firm and you're doing, like, 1 person can do, like, maximum 25 projects a year. So, how You know, human consultant is usually, like, 80 k to a 100 k. And so if you kind of, like, split that up between those projects, you kinda get an idea of how much how expensive it is to do. So most people just don't do simulations because it's too expensive or it takes too much time.

A Yeah. I think, I mean, the the other interesting there is you guys have figured out a way to, like, like, in increase your your value, right, and get paid We're not having to do the consulting gig. Because if you look at architect like traditional architectural services, You know, we can only be paid by the amount of time that we can commit to any one project. So you're always going without You know, the only option there is to raise your fees, right, to make more in the end because, it's time for money. So, yeah, I think it's super smart that you guys have found a way to kind of leverage leverage that in in a way that's scalable, and it actually allows you to have how More of that. Well, I realize you guys are still growing, but, like, you know, the hope is financial freedom, making money while you sleep. And I and I realize I I might be doing a stretch here, but I, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth as an entrepreneur either. But I think it's important to note that you really how to found a way to leverage your time and ultimately help more people do what you were doing before.

C Right. I mean, ultimately, my goal is to bend the curve on climate change. You know, buildings are 40% how carbon emissions. So the only way to do that is if every single project was energy modeled. And Sandeep and I and Daniel, we Just looked at it. We're like, there's no way that with consultants will ever be able to do that within you know, we gotta do that now rather than 50 years how future. So so the only way to do it would be if everyone could do it. So that was kinda like the starting thesis, and that's what kinda drives us forward each day.

C I'm not so much concerned how making money necessarily as much as having, like, a

B future for the planet. Yes. Scaling scaling the impalability. Yes.

A Sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

C No. No. But I'm just saying, like, that's kind of that's kind of, like, what's driving us more so than anything. So, like, we've taken pay cuts how in the when we first started just to make sure that the business survived. And, of course, now it's thriving. But, like, at one point, you know, you really had to make sure that, how You know, the dream lives.

B Yes. And, also, I mean, I think that the demand is growing. I mean, Adoption of using this in design projects is rapidly increasing. There's always been, existing number of practitioners how you really advocate for this, but what I'm seeing is sustainability metrics are pretty hard to, how Analyze. And so being able to make this more accessible for more designers allows more people to be integrating this into their buildings and hopefully, how Adopt it quicker and across, you know, the United States faster, and I know it's also showing up in design awards, how as a metric. You know, in order to even qualify, I think AIU Awards are starting to put it as a requirement that you our thinking about these kind of metrics. So you no longer have to be, I guess, a specialist to have a entry point into these kind of Data analytic conversations.

C Oh, yeah. And I think more so, like, from our standpoint, we're we we know that, like, the super sustainable firms how gonna do it. But, like, if you kind of think about the problem, like, okay. How do I get, like, somebody who's afraid of doing this? That's the kind of person that we really target and, like, how Marketing or how the interface works to make sure that it feels accessible. And one of the most important things is obviously, like, if people can get help how Mhmm. So, like, just in our tool, people can chat with, different experts on our team in real time. How And so that also kinda helps people overcome that fear on their 1st project. And if you teach someone to fish for themselves, they kinda tend to fish for themselves instead of having to Always have to rely on other people.

A Exactly. Yeah. So I wanted to circle back to a part of another question. I I tend to ask multipart questions, so sorry about that. But, you know, this whole idea of, like, now now you're about hiring a team, what does it take like, how How do you know if you're hiring the right people? You're not in the architecture space. Right? Now you're hiring people that you probably never knew you would how be working closely with on your company. Like, did you seek out mentors as you moved through this? How is that process for you?

C Yeah. I think, you know, the most important thing when you evaluate someone is, one, you can kind of, like, how see other successful people, like, on LinkedIn and what their qualifications are. So that's kind of like a thing. You can also talk to other entrepreneurs or your investors. You know, we have really good investors that have good advice sometimes. You know, occasionally, we disregard that advice. But, but some but I think the most important quality is, how Like, do they believe in something is also, like, really important for us. Like, do you believe in doing the right thing? Do you believe in caring about other people? And If those 2 things are true and they seem like, you know, you kinda wanna hire people that are nice, who so that they work well together because the business is run by people, You know, skill sets.

C So it's bet it's always better to hire people who are gonna be just good good individuals who use science and that drives their decision making. So we have 2 rules at Cove tool, basically. Do you you did you care about somebody when you did And then did you, you know, use science to come up with the answer for it? If the answer to those 2 questions is yes, then you're empowered to do whatever you wanna do. And so, like, when you start making it so that people on your team are working as colleagues rather than working for the man, As they say, it makes a lot different because it's more, like being on faculty at a university rather than, like, working for a corporation.

A How did you I wanna go back on that, because we talk about, right, the importance of Really being intentional about how you set up the culture of the organization you're building. And this is true of architecture firms. This is true of any Any business you're developing. So I I love those 2 kind of units of measurement. But how how did you guys begin to think about, like, Okay. Now we have a real business. How are we gonna build this culture?

C Yeah. I think it starts with the cofounder. So everyone has to if you're a cofounder, you tend to hire people that are, how of similar disposition to you. So, like, if you're, like, a really not nice person and you're unscrupulous, you hire people who are also unscrupulous how nice. Or if you care about the environment and then you're in an interview and you say, so what drives you? There's a question. Someone says, like, well, I just how money. And you're like, well, maybe this isn't, like, really the right place for you. You know, go somewhere where they drill oil wells or something like how But, like, if you if you really wanna, like, believe in something or have a vision, I think just having some kind of metric.

C So, like, if you wanna build a culture, you also need how Like, have a way of rating your candidates on a scale of 1 to 10 with, like, 5 or 6 different things that you really care about how So that you don't get carried away in the moment. Like, also helps with increasing diversity in your company if you, one, go out and recruit people how from places that maybe other people aren't looking for. So, for example, at Cove tool, what we really look for a lot of times is how The ability to go like, if we go and recruit more women or more minorities, those people are being passed over by someone else who's not being as conscientious about how what

A they're looking

C for even though they're more qualified sometimes.

B Right. Yeah. And I I think what I'm hearing is just how Putting understanding your values really clearly and and putting that at the center of perhaps the decision making process, how, and and that becomes your compass, which is really, I think, an important lesson that, a lot of entrepreneurs have how to learn along the way.

C Yeah. Like, over half of our software team is women.

B Oh, wow.

C And 51 how of our company is, women employees. And then we also try to keep, how recruiting. So you really have to, like, actually change how your your job postings are written. How Because if you write, like, we're like a bunch of bros and we, like, code and do all this stuff, and then, of course, you're only gonna get a bunch of bros who respond to bro things. And then you'll have a bro culture, which is not what you want. But if you want, like, a culture that everybody cares about each other And people are, like, understanding of, like, hey. I have a kid, and they're being crazy this morning. So it's like, well, why don't you just call, your Australian contacts this evening or something.

C You know, like, being flexible is also, like, a super important part of making sure that, like, how You're inclusive to all different kinds of people.

B Yeah. That's a really good point. Thank you for sharing that. I think a a lot of architecture firms are struggling. They they know they want to work on diversity, but they're not quite necessarily sure the appropriate way to go about it. And so those are I think there's some really good insight on ways to tackle it.

C Yeah. Like, if you go to historically black colleges and universities and you recruit there, first, that's, like, one thing because there's a lot of qualified people. Mhmm. Also, if you recruit, like I said, with, like, just a little bit more how Focus. There's actual scientific evidence for, like, how you write your job posting, like, how diverse your how It's not that hard to get a diverse company. You just have to, like, care about it and, like, actually implement it with the hiring process.

B Right. Yeah.

A But, like, how The percentages of women, I mean, even in tech I mean, it's not necessarily better in tech than it is in the architecture industry, so that's really how exciting that kind of that you've been able to put that assemble the team that you have.

C Georgia Tech has, like, a lot of amazing women how coders that come out of it. So we kind of have hired heavily from over there.

B Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And they have a really good architecture program 2.

C They do. They do indeed.

A How did your business switch at all even on the technology side being during the pandemic. And where what does return to work look like for you guys?

C How Oh, man. Yeah. So, actually, sales really picked up once the pandemic started because people had to switch to more digital tools and processes. How So it's like it's accelerated technology and architecture by about 10 years into the future. Like, before I had to travel to each city and do 5 to 6 presentations a how and then with the pandemic, everything's on Zoom. Makes it a lot easier to talk to folks. And now we're probably after post pandemic, maybe we'll go back how like 2 days in the office, 3 days in the office. I don't know.

C We'll see. But for now, we find that we just need, like, a once a month meeting, where people see each other in three d how To kind of, like, still maintain their sanity. But other than that, we're we're trying to be safe. I mean, we're in Georgia. It's not terribly good numbers down here right now.

B Yeah. And to the extent that you're able to I guess we're kinda curious about the r and d process, in in terms of, like, how It is very ambitious to say that you're gonna come up with a product to sell that's technology based and then actually implement it and then figure out how to get it Functional. How do you And then funded. And funded. I mean, that is, like, a huge ambitious goal. How What can you tell us about the r and d process that, you know, you're willing to share?

C Yeah. It's mostly comes down to breaking things into smaller pieces. Like, You can't, like, eat the whole elephant at once. You need to really, like, take it a little bit at a time. And so, you know, it's easy, I put that in air quotes to build something that's for a schematic level of design. And then what we do is we always just go back to and do iterations to kind of, like, Go and add another stage to the process. So go from schematic design to DD, and send DD to CDs, and then from CDs to construction documents, how and get all the way to through the process. Like, you can't build a tool that does the entire breadth of things that you need to do.

C All in one go. So we have to break it into how Smaller parts. And then you always have to focus on what is the biggest pain point for people, of whatever it is, the thing that you're making, and make sure that you, how solve that that weak link first.

A How do you gather that information? Is it mostly you mentioned that you have, you know, people that chat live with your customers. Is that, you know, how do you turn that information into this is the next how area, or this is what we need to fix in the product.

C For that, you know, just talking to your customer first, like, the people who are you're working with. So when we did a beta of our first how version of Cove tool that was just costing energy. Just sitting down with people and saying like, hey. Here's the thing we made. What do you think? You know? And then they're saying like, well, I don't like this. Oh, I don't like that. And it's like, well, why aren't you like that? And it's like, well, for this reason. You're like, well, I think we could get around it if we did this other thing.

C You know, you can kind of like how Negotiate with people who are using it and try to understand, like, does this work for Cooper Carry out of Atlanta, which is a firm that uses Code Tools. So we Sat down with them. They're like, well, the Cooper Carryway is we do it, like, with these different things in this order. And then we go to the next firm, hey. We're talking to Smithgill. And they're like, actually, we do this other thing, And we don't do that thing. And so then you're like, I guess I need to add a feature that incorporates that. And so you kind of like as you talk to more and more different firms, You start to create, like, a baseline for, like, what is the typical thing people are doing and how do we solve that.

C And if there is some person with some strange thing that they're doing, Can you say, like, we'll just use Grasshopper?

B We might not be the tool for you.

C Yeah. Exactly. How because you you wanna design stuff for peep for the maximum number of people, not for, like, a super niche group of people who are, like because then that's usually the folly of most architectural software. They build it for a really tiny TAM, total addressable market, and then they don't get funding and no one uses it. So Mhmm.

A How I love these acronyms that you're throwing in that most people in architecture firms probably would not know. But thank you for defining all of them. So

B I had a question from a friend who's a building scientist, and she wanted to know, do you have any ideas about how your platform might integrate designing for resilience or projecting performance with future clients. And she gave the example of really hot days, which I know you're probably experiencing in Georgia at some point.

C Yeah. So there's actually, like, a whole database, how for the whole world that has predictions for what your high wind events or how much damage you're gonna get in the future from climate change and things like that. How So you can't integrate that into the map. So we have, like, the three d map of where your building is and everything, all the context. But, how there's also, like you can do future weather predictions. Like, if you you can kinda like find an equivalent weather how your location. So for example, by 2050, Atlanta will have the same climate as Mobile, Alabama. How There's actually the database of what the translations are from one place

A to another.

C So that's something we're working on as right now.

B Interesting. That's really great. I did when I worked in San Francisco, I did sea level rise analysis for the Bay Area, and it was really shocking because, You know, one of the projects was, like, right there at the edge on Embarcadero.

C Oh, yeah.

B And the the anticipated sea level rise for a 50 year period in a 100 year period was just so much higher than what I think I could have imagined until I did the analysis and the numbers. So I think, yeah, the changes that we're anticipating are quite shocking once you really get into the data. Yeah.

C When you see those numbers in meters, it's easy to forget that that's 3 feet per meter. So so So if it's a 2 meter sea level rise, it's like 6 feet. That's like there's like one part of like, Miami is already experiencing, like, how recurring flooding from sea level rise. So it's already here.

B Yeah. It's already here. I know I keep taking us back to climate change, Evelyn, but, feel free to bring us back to entrepreneurship.

A No. That's fine. I think it's all kind of intertwined, especially given why you guys are are in it, for the for scalability and to make the planet greener. What how firms are you guys targeting in terms of is this for, like can the solo entrepreneur do this?

C Mhmm. Yeah. There's definitely, like, we have 1 package that's, like, for really, really small firms. And they also have, like, their own, like, collective training regime. So, like, sometimes we'll do, like, an AIA event how Where we'll get, like, for AI 2030 reporting. A lot of times, small firms think that they can't do it or like a single practitioner doesn't think they can do it. But if how They all get trained together and then get some free access as part of the you know, because we work with the AI sometimes to kind of, like, how do those training sessions. They'll give us a discount on on paying them for the training session, then, you know, the architects are getting there.

C They get it how free for a few weeks. And then that way, they can log their stuff at least, while they're kinda getting their training. So that's definitely important Because, that's how automation really helps, though, overcome that, is if I'm a sole practitioner. If I just, like, know where where my project is, What type of project is and then what the three d model is. You can get all the data, spit back how

B Did you guys, look at the code top 10 metrics that they've been pushing out? Has that been something that It's been helpful in terms of developing your platform.

C Yeah. So I guess when that first came out, I guess it was, like, 2018 maybe. How We were watching that closely, and we saw what those metrics were, and then we immediately incorporated that into the platform. So we put all the, how coat we went to the coat top 10 spreadsheet and just tried to pull out everything that we could easily simulate and do, like, the water calcs or how The walk scores, transcript byte score, you know, things like that. So all the things that are in that top 10 spreadsheet, we've how Actively integrating with Cove tool.

B Oh, that's great.

C We always try to support anything AI.

B Great. Yeah. What, from architecture, how did you take forward into what you're doing? Obviously, there's the building science part, but, like, in terms of running your business?

C I guess, like, from a going all the way back to architecture school, I was always interested in, like, the intersection of technology how in architecture and how those 2 things interact. And so I did, like, a Mars colony for

B my thesis.

A Oh,

C cool. 5 year undergrad. And And, so one of the things I took away from that was, the fact that this thing called the pattern language, which is like how Christopher Alexander is this idea that you can break down design to, like, components and then use those components to create rules that kinda guide the way you design. So kind of like that together, once I started actually practicing as an architect, I used those principles to do like either modern houses or historic preservation. That's kinda we did either one.

A Mhmm.

C But one of the things that I think is really interesting about the pattern language is that it's the basis for all how Modern coding methods is the actual Christopher Alexander, he wrote that book and a bunch of computer science guys read that and were like, So how So we don't have to write all of our code in one go. We can actually debate make it into little little pieces and then put those together to make more things. And so that ended up becoming what today is called the agile method of software development, where you can make different components, how together and do sprints and all the stuff, but all that kind of goes back ideologically

A to an architect.

B Oh, it does. Interesting. Yeah. I've heard, Actually, Evelyn, if you wanna dig into this here, I know she's been talking a lot about agile, and we use the term sprint also in some of our work. You know, from a technology standpoint, can you guys give us an example what that is like? And it's interesting to hear you say that you think it does relate how to architecture.

C Oh, a 100%. Like because I think, like, maybe when Christopher Alexander put his ideas together, how Computers were kinda like not really a thing. And so people didn't see how it could be applicable that you could have rules that could help you with design. That was how pretty much anathema to anybody in the postmodernist age. I think though as computing got more advanced, you know, People were looking at his book and which is, like, maybe the 1st hyperlinked book, you could say. And then they started thinking about how those code blocks work. How But, I guess, purely from, like, how we're we're thinking about software, like, we have a 1 week sprint process, and so we pull things into that sprint. So, basically, that's, like, all the team that get a list of tasks that are organized by priority, and then, like and how We also have, like, stories, which is, like, things that go for more than 1 week.

C And so then certain people are dedicated to certain stories. You know? There's how always somebody fixing bugs, but, you know, then you're able to kind of, like, evaluate a thing you bring it in. They code up. You know, I give them an interface from somebody from my team, and then they kinda marry those 2 things together. We do all the back and forth for the science. And then we have, like, a beta version internally, and that gets tested on what they call a staging server. We're, like, testing things before the The world sees it, and then once it's all tested, then you send it to production. So that's kind of maybe the process.

C I'm not sure how that all fits together in terms of your question.

A But how No. I mean, I think it's it's just like a way of there's so there's a lot of different definitions of of agile, and I think I how I approach it in my personal life, I approach it very differently than, say, you know, what happens in at work. But it it is these motion it is these Things that happen in short spurts to kind of get to the to the bigger outcome.

B So you guys are thinking about that probably in terms of, like, how to design crits and pet apps.

C Yeah. Yeah. So, like, even before we get to a full feature, we have everybody mock up how like walk through, like, how it's supposed to work. And so even from the research side, which we have architects and engineers working how In our research lab, we're always thinking about the research process the same way the software team is thinking how the coding process. So we also use sprints, in research. And then each person is kind of assigned certain, like, things that they have to be how for to get the all the way to implementation. So I don't I don't have to do everything.

B Yeah. No. And that's really important because I think we've all experienced working in an office where there are bottlenecks, and that becomes problematic in the, you know, grand scheme of things.

A Yeah. And I think it becomes even more important as and, Patrick, you can correct me. As, you know, a lot of software companies have how moved towards software as a service. Right? Because that means that you're shipping product on a more regular basis, you know, with how Anytime you essentially get an update is what what it means to ship products. So in that respect, like, the ability to do these agile how becomes that much more important to kind of keep up with customer need, and demand and make those changes that you said that you need to the tool based on what you know, the all the interviews that you've been doing.

C Right. Because because, like, you know, we can deploy we usually deploy 2 or 3 times a week to production. So, you know, like, if someone's like, hey. This thing's not working. Or, my, how You know, I had this problem where it's like, oh, this energy code needs to be switched from, you know, 2013 to 2016 or how We can actually, like, do that almost immediately. So people feel like, when they're using the software that, like, if they have a complaint or a need or something it kind of, like, gets resolved quickly. Mean means that people are feel like they're a part of the process of creating Cove tool as well. So if you're, like, how Using the software you're and you're chatting with us, like, that's going directly into the current sprint planning for the next 2 weeks.

C How So you ever really start to get really strong product market set really quick because, everyone's involved

A in shaping that.

B Do you have a vision for where you guys wanna be in the next 5 years? I mean, obviously, it's clear based on your values you want to how help people adopt it to save the environment. But beyond that and or maybe in parallel to it, what what what is the grand vision for the company.

C Yeah. I mean, like, I think ultimately, every entrepreneur, you you need to shoot for your being an IPO Company. So, currently, we're on track for for that, I hope. It looks pretty good so far and with no signs of slowing down, that's Sure. But I think the long term vision, involves, you know, just solving all the different connections of data translation problems that cause how not to do the, the right sustainable thing. So, for example, like, maybe if I'm a mechanical engineer and I can't, And I have to remodel my project to be able to calculate how much, insulation I need on my ductwork. And because it's too hard, then I don't do that. How great example of a design problem that we should solve as part of our platform and connect that weak link in the process and then move on to doing something else how Later.

C So just kinda keep connecting to the part that's causing the most heartache and also connect professions that have the most translation problems. How So it's like, for example, we're working with manufacturers to integrate their sales cycle into Cove tool so they can get information how from their customers, put their products on that person's project, quote them a price that's actually realistic in, like, how Less than a day, which is typically it's if you wanna switch to wood wood construction, for instance, and you wanna do wood panels and everything. The time it takes for someone to do a wood panel quote is perhaps too long. So then you end up just going with steel instead. So how Huge embodied carbon problem can't be solved because there's just not enough time with the current, like, 1 to 2 week period it takes to estimate A different structural system.

B That's really great to hear. I I love that because you really are tackling, you know, more systematic problems within the industry.

C Yeah. But Munster Fuller is kinda like I look up to him. But he always, like, looked at the world in a way that he's, like, he views the whole world as a design problem, where there's no boundaries between what the architect is doing and what The guy on Wall Street's doing or what the guy in construction's doing. What you know, he kinda likes took more systematic how views of the problems of the time. So I think that's like every if everybody started doing that, we'd be able to, like, see more connections and not just be so narrowly focused on our how One profession.

A Mhmm. I think there's a lot of interested architects out there who have ideas but are afraid of taking the next steps. So what words of advice or encouragement do you have for them?

C Yeah. I guess what I would say is, like, you miss a 100% of the shots that you never take. So, like, I think you just need to try and make it happen, how ultimately, because you don't I think a lot of people are holding on to, oh, I have this job. You know? But your employer could fire you at, like, anytime because, you know, how Some condition could happen. So it's like you only live one time, and you might as well, like, have fun doing the things that you do. And the how The worst case scenario is that you go out and become an entrepreneur and then, like, it takes you 1 extra year to get your your seat near the window if you have to come back to the firm. How You know, like, you know, there's there's kind of, like, some risk involved obviously in starting something, but, like, involves mostly just being able to use math To figure out, like, does this make sense? Like, go back to your fundamentals. Like, if someone did this thing and I charged them this x amount for it, how Would I be able to support this business? You know, there's some a lot of really good business books out there for, like, startups that kind of, like, help help you go through that math.

C It's also never a good idea to join like an accelerator. If you do have an idea and you're, like, severely short on, like, resources from a business and marketing, learning how Google AdWords work and all that. How So I would say, like, probably joining an accelerator is a good idea. But a lot of times, like, certain accelerators will bill themselves as, like, It's like, oh, if you come here, we'll make you a 100% successful, and they can make it seem magical. But it's not magical. It's just, like, do the unit economics work of the thing that you're how And can you are you persuasive enough to get in front of enough people? You know, there's like you may need to, like, pitch this thing to, like, a 100 people. Like, if you pitch it to someone the 1st time you show it off, they're like someone's like, oh, that's dumb. You can't just, like, fold and say, well, I guess I'll go back to the Revit how Crafting table.

C You know? Yeah. You kinda have to, like, you persevere. And especially, like, if you're not like a white guy, like, you're definitely gonna have how Persevere more. That's just part of it, like, unfortunately. So I True. So, like, if You get, like, 50 noes, know that there's 1 person out there who's gonna see what you see. But also, you know, you just kinda have to, like, how Keep pitching both the idea to investors if you do invest. But if someone really doesn't if no one believes in your idea and you've done the math and it looks like it works, then you how can also bootstrap it.

C So that's kinda like what we did. So we actually got people you know, friends and family. You can usually find how Somebody who's a coder that you know, and then, like, work together. Because people who are good software engineers, they're the people that they're kinda like contractors. How They make things. But, you know, if you're the creative person, they're looking for someone to team up with to be the next big thing. So a Lot of times you can get people, if you say, hey. I'll give you 50% in company.

C I'll be the other 50%. Let's do this. You know? That those are, Sometimes you just have to just make it happen. But usually, if you kinda leave behind the safety of your job how and go full force into something. That's the only way you'll be successful. If you kinda wanna do the side project, you're not ready, to be an entrepreneur.

A Yeah. I I I like the notion of just, like, pitching yourself multiple times. I feel like in architecture, we're actually told how To not not tell everyone what we're doing all the time, which is the exact opposite of what I was told you need to do in business school.

B Or not be front and center and be willing to jump up there and lay it out there on the line.

C Yeah. And sometimes, you know, like, as an architect, you're like, Well, if they didn't see it, then, you know, you're used to getting a lot of criticism as an architect. Also, you have to be aware as an architect when you're working with how engineers or people who are not architects that your level of pain for, like, criticism about how something appears is, how Like, 4000% higher than anyone else, so don't be too critical.

A See, that's that seems like that's that comment came from a lesson learned over time.

C Yeah. It's not gonna look like Facebook or, You know, an Apple product on the very first time you build something, it's gonna look pretty crappy. So, make sure it works first.

A So what I really appreciate about how Patrick's journey is that he is, what I would consider a younger entrepreneur in this space. How And I hope this story is an interesting story for, like, the mid career professionals and older, that there are young people out there that are building really unique and special things, and I also hope that our younger listeners realize that, you know, you don't need decades of work experience how To go out there and and build something either. But what Patrick had more than anything else, I think, was the entrepreneurial spirit to really see a problem and then ultimately find a way to build a business to solve it.

B How So when I listen to this story and I hear Patrick talk about his journey, what I'm hearing is just a really great purpose driven case study about how to take something that is a value to you and turn it into a business. When they were in school they knew that they were passionate about finding solutions to, climate action and climate change through large scale solutions. And while they were at principal, they they worked on the research team and and grew in their professional experience there and understanding how to do the work that they were trying to accomplish. But it's very cool to see them go out into the world and think about the specific barriers and gaps in the market that are preventing climate action from scaling at a larger reach and using their design skills and their entrepreneurial experience to find solutions and design around the specific barriers. Because once you break those barriers and obstacles down, it allows for wider adoption and reach of the solutions that you're trying to implement.

A How Yeah. It's interesting be to me because one of, you know, one of the biggest complaints that I hear come out of traditional practice how is that people don't value what we do enough. The the flip side is that people valued what Patrick and his team had to deliver, But they couldn't always afford it, so they found a way to continue to deliver upon that value, how But scale it in a way that actually more people can afford the analytics that he was doing himself. You know, previously, it would take a person much longer to do, and you'd also have to hire someone with 6 figures to do it.

B I think about the scalability of the education into the industry. You know, I think when lead became popular, that was something that a lot of firms we're hiring around. And so there there is, a group of talented leaders in our field who have studied and understand high performance design, but there's certainly that's not the skill set of every person practicing. And so what I see is a way that they're breaking down the barrier around education. And I think for people who don't understand how to do that research or do those, met to find those metrics. This tool, I think, using it is a way to learn it, like you said, and to bring it into smaller practices who would otherwise, probably not have access or information around how to do that kind of work.

A Yeah. And it's interesting at how Kind of the top of the conclusion, you mentioned this being a purpose driven practice. So for me, purpose driven practice is one thing how Because the value of what they are delivering is very purpose driven. In this case, they you know, like, enabling more architects how to design sustainably. But purpose driven, you'll find that those purpose driven companies are really also very purpose driven how and socially aware when it comes to how they build out their culture, the vision, and mission internally as well. So he has placed an incredible amount of trust on his employees, You know, and it's not a butts in seat type of thing. He's essentially they asked them 2 questions, right, which was really meaningful me to me. The you know, how In making that decision to do what you do, did you care about someone when you did this, and did you use science to find the answer? How And I think that just opened up a lot of doors for anyone at his organization to contribute how to the product and to the company, but it also gives them the ability to say, okay.

A It's it's okay to fail, which I think is also equally important.

B How and I think you mentioned this too, but they were really specific about hiring and specifically around diversity, which I know we've talked a lot about offline and on the show. This is a challenge that a lot of firms are facing. They know they wanna they wanna how to find a solution to the diversity challenge, and I think this is another example of how you can start to bridge those conversations in your firm, and be very proactive about pursuing it.

A Yeah. And he I mean, it's he just touched on the process. Right? Like, you have to go to where the talent is in places that you might not have gone to, so the historically black, how University and colleges. But also, you have to really analyze how you're even writing job descriptions to make sure that they're very inclusive or or not off putting how to the type of people that you would want to attract as well. So for me, making that intentional decision To bring in more diversity to the company means that you really have to look at all of your people processes how and analyze, like, where where are we creating unknown road bumps that might be hindering people from joining the how firm or from staying at the firm.

B So to just bring this full circle and come back to where we were hoping to go with this episode, I think this is a case study about aligning your values and your work and your company so that they're all moving forward together and using your business to create an impact. We're gonna include the links in the show notes so that you can go learn more about what they're doing.

A So thank you for listening, how And tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. How Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of arc. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

A And if you wanna take your career or practice to the next level, Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, And we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablmedia.com.

A We are also looking for sponsors who want to how with us in 2021 and beyond. If that's you, please contact me directly at evelyn@practiceofarchitecture.com.

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A Thanks for listening, and see you next