Building a Digital Marketing Strategy

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hi, Janine.

B Hey, listeners. Hey, Evelyn.

A How So this week, we are talking to the content whisperer. Given, Janine, that this falls into your directly into what you used to do at Affirm, Why did you feel it was important that we bring Danielle on?

B Well, you know, I first got to see Danielle present at the SM PS annual meeting, which is the marketing, for professional services group. We had a conference in San Diego, and I sat in on a workshop she did on search engine optimization or SEO, which is really important for how people find information about your company on the Internet. And over the last couple years, especially with, now going through COVID and the pandemic, our reliance on the Internet has how Skyrocketed. So SEO is just one example of digital marketing, and I thought that maybe we could have a pretty in-depth conversation about what digital marketing is, why it's important, how firms can start to think about it, and and the really the value add for what you would use it for.

A Great. So here's Danielle's bio. Known for her reliability and humor, Danielle Gray is a content marketing strategist With over 9 years of industry experience composing proposals, writing content, running email campaigns, and generating leads online. How Along with developing proposals, she helped her former design build firm grow website visits by 88% and contributed over a100 and 50,000,000 in revenue from leads generated from the website in just 3 years. Now Danielle is the owner of DG Marketing Company, a professional services marketing firm committed to contributing and creating genuine, humanized marketing that listens and solves instead of tells and sells. How She also speaks around the country about content generation and the importance of digital marketing and social media, specifically relating to the AEC industry. Let's cut to the interview.

C I am actually from Atlanta, Georgia and went to school in Jacksonville, how Jacksonville University in Jacksonville, Florida. So I am not, good with anything cold. So that's how I I hate cold weather, but I I do it anyway, but I do not really have a great jacket for it. How But I'm a former basketball player, so there's definitely that athlete, competitive nature, doing your very best kinda energy. And, You know, I think an interesting part of my story is that my dad is actually a speaker. So I think a lot of this has to do with a little bit of genes and good luck I am able to give that kind of energy. And then my mom's actually a psychologist, so she knows how to listen. So the listening I got from her, The able the ability to speak about it, I think, I get from my father.

C So long story short, I think those 2, Thoughts of listening and speaking that that is marketing to me. So it's really understanding your audience is the psychology and then how Being able to create a message content wise to give it to the world is is awesome. So that's that's what I do. I call myself a mark marketing nerd, how Somewhat of a content snob, but, overall, just a grateful human being and trying to make the world a better place, really.

B And, Danielle, you're also the content whisperer, which you'll I think our listeners will hear a little bit about that as we go on, but how That's actually where I first met you was at an S&PS annual meeting in San Diego. You were giving this great workshop on how Digital marketing. And I think maybe that's the best place to start is to just, like, let's hit the core of it. How The big idea I think you and I both, coming from marketing backgrounds, see that marketing in the industry is changing, and you have gone on, like, a US tour talking about that at all the different marketing how s and p s, chapters around the country. So can you give us, like, the highlights? Like, how do you see architects? And I know you work with engineers and contractors sometimes too, but how do you see the industry falling behind on marketing?

C Well, I think, it's how It's really just breaking out of this thought that certain marketing is only for certain types of businesses. The big thing about what I how I started with as a content whisperer was that I was doing the social media in my firm because I was the youngest. Right? And I realized I was going to Twitter and LinkedIn and had nothing to say. And that was the moment that I realized that how Social media is simply just a megaphone. You have to have content behind it. So that's when I really started to figure out how you how You get cert certain, personality types to give you the content that you need to create it. And, from there, that's really where I how started with teaching people how to get content from those minds because a lot of times, like, oh, I don't know anything. It's like, yes.

C You do. There's the right questions how in a way to not talk about marketing that is traditional to them, you know, figuring out the different language. And then from there, crafting content for the scanning eye. So all of these pieces, I think, help overall to circle back to your question, which is, how I think we're slow to move, just because we are sometimes thinking that certain things don't apply. So blogs for a while was like, oh, we don't need how do that. That's crazy. Well, look at where we are right now. We are in a place where people aren't even able to go to the conferences how or the networking events or all those things that they were traditionally able to do.

C And the only way to really contact in a big way is is through content. So I think people are how to pick up that as they go. But I think it's just you know, we've always done it this way energy. And, luckily, how I think as marketers and and from different industries coming into, the industry as well will be helpful to them. Like, no. We can apply this. There's a story here. How

B So what's unique about your career is the story you shared at the conference. You were able to convince your company to do some digital marketing early Leon, and you found an immediate ROI on getting more interaction with the brand and more eyes on some of the content that you were developing. So now that you've kinda grown your career, and I think you've expanded some of the things you're looking at, what opportunities do you see for architects and engineers and contractors related to marketing?

C How I think there's an ability for this industry to really show its personality. I think that there's a place where I think, traditionally, you see the proposals. Everything's very, I don't know how to it's just it doesn't have, how Sometimes it doesn't have much life to it. The designs may, but the proposals or the marketing, is almost like, hey. Let me tell you exactly what we do, and how We do this and we do that, when we can really start to tell stories. I think that's where the opportunity is. And with every project, there's always a story. So really thinking through okay.

C This is a really cool moment. Instead of saying this had this many bedrooms and blah blah blah and how Early and on time and all those things. What happened? Why did they need this facility? What, you know, what was the energy behind it? How did it affect community overall. So I think that there's tons of opportunity. We just don't always think about it because we think we have to be in this fake box of marketing, within our industry to be, robotic, you know, almost with our marketing, which I think, how If you really think about it, we're all people, in the back end. So, that's probably the most important part is remembering that you were talking to people. How They're not machines on the other end, and and there

A are you. Danielle, what do you say to people in the industry that is just like, I don't have time for this?

C Mhmm.

A I often hear, like, that's the biggest like, you want me to produce all of this content? What what is your your best response for that.

C Well, the truth is is that it's true, especially with the way it's set up. A lot of marketers are tasked to do proposals. They're tasked to do I mean, so many things, within these, firms, especially the smaller how Firm. I was one of 3, in the corporate marketing position, and we were I think at the time, it was, like, 7 or $800,000,000 a year. So how It's not enough people. So I would say I completely empathize with it. However, I think the content marketing how is, one of our best vehicles to, for lead generation right now and getting people to know who you are and who who your firm is. I mean, we're literally on the computer all day.

C Like, we were on the computer all day before, but we're really on the computer all day now, you know, working, but also having meetings. And, you know, I think it's really important for firms to be able to show up in these new environments, which is on the computer how Through LinkedIn and all those other places. So I would say, you don't always have time for it, but it is necessary in the long run to really how Create a funnel, of new clients and and new new opportunities overall.

B Maybe you can talk about some of the value that you've seen from perhaps any of your clients that have actually invested time into doing this type of marketing. Where where do they get a return?

C Hearn. That's so funny you say that. Literally, one of my clients I went to their office, and we did a content generation workshop. And that was not with marketers. It was actually with the industry experts and the leadership within the company. And, we were going through personas. How We were going through what they really need. I mean, like, some really, really deep diving work.

C You know, basically, what it is is who's your audience? How What are their motivations, concerns, all those things? But, also, what are their problems? Like, what are they what are keeping them up at night? And that's what we start addressing. And also, what are your dreams and aspirations? So really understanding that so that you can craft things that really speak to that audience. So we did that whole workshop with both of their, groups, and she calls me no more than a week ago. Right? And she said, I just wanna say that we are still using all of the information now. Especially, I don't think we would have made it through the pandemic and And through all of that, had we not been very clear about who we're trying to pursue, what kind of content they need to see, how all those things. So and she even said, I would love to do a presentation with you. I was like, that would be awesome. I think SMBS will be completely down for it.

C I mean, she really went through and showed how they were doing content meetings internally and how that really helped them. So I would love to know more even from her because I just she just called me. So I think these things take how In my experience, doing a lot of the deep dive work, being consistent on social media, it's about how Maybe a year, 2 years down the line, we start getting actual work from it. So, you know, it's not a fast cure all thing, But it does make the future look a little bit brighter, and it it really helps overall just how backlog in general. I mean, you really just think about the sales cycle. When a business developer meets someone, do you expect them to how To get a job the next day? No. You you know, those relationships take time. And through online, you don't have a actual person.

C So how It takes a little time, but, I mean, I would say 2 years turnaround. Think about your sales cycle. How fast are you able to do a facility? How Well, think about it. I mean, it's about that same amount, and we're willing to invest that with our business developers. We should invest that in marketing in content marketing as well.

A How I think that's an important piece to point out. I think social media, especially, and even website is so immediate

C Mhmm.

A That people actually don't spend enough time on it because, they're, like, not seeing the immediate return, and then it really quickly falls off. So this is how This is actually a long game we're playing. It's not like even though it's like this 1 Instagram post or this 1 blog post that you've repurposed a zillion different ways. Like, you're really it's it's the long game.

C Absolutely. And you have to just go in there understanding that. I've had one of, how Our project managers, he printed out a case study to a a presentation he had, and they were like, oh my gosh. This is us. So there's so many different ways. You know, you can have a case study on online, but your internal team can use it too, your seller doers, and how They can share it. There's so many different ways this can work, and that's why I really advocate for making sure we have something, a presence how online. Because if you don't have a presence online now, it's it's as if you don't exist.

B I I agree. And I wanted to also ask you about the search engine optimization piece because I know there was a period of time, and I don't know if you're still involved in this, but you were really researching, like, how how Google Analytics worked and how to take some of that content and really make sure that you're looking at the data associated with that.

C I think what was cool was that I tested my my theories. Sometimes as marketers, we're just like, yeah. That's it. How Like, I'm gonna put that into the world, and and it's gonna do what it does. But what what I was doing and and referring to in that in that presentation was how Really looking at our analytics of our website and realizing that we were getting a lot of clicks on this one specific service that we never talked about. And that's when I brought it to the business development team saying, hey. I think we should probably focus a little bit more on this, or how These are the type of clients that are coming to to download this kind of case study. Maybe we need to be looking into that.

C So it's like how Testing and also making sure that you are putting out what what your audience is going to receive. I think that it's it's just really important how where where you where you are, how it's going, tracking your way through, seeing what gets likes, what gets shares, and try to recreate that if how It's working. You know? Don't recreate the wheel. You know what I mean? But I think that as far as SEO is concerned, how I always am in a middle ground. I believe in quality, SEO. I think that sometimes people will figure out some word or phrase and just Put it in there. I'm like, what is this even saying? All I feel like I'm just being marketed to and there's keywords in here. So, you know, I think it's how Understanding and going through Google keywords and seeing what which ones are have good competition.

C You don't want the hard competition. You can't how compete, you know, really looking at what those are. And, also, something else I'd tell people. Ask people that are outside of your industry how they would describe you how Because we would be so specific with our search. Yeah. We would get that high. But what are your clients gonna search when they realize they need an architect? And so thinking out all those different ways and testing it and using it, but always maintaining the quality. Because once someone feels like they're being sold how They're out of there.

C That's how I feel as a person too. And so I say, listen and solve, not tell themselves. Just listen to the people and figure out how you how solve their problems without giving too much away, and you you may have a loyal client for life.

B How That's a really good point. I've had a couple pain points along those lines of just, I think sometimes As marketers, we end up getting crutched on the photography, especially with our architect clients, because they view that as the most important thing. They see it as a photo of their final product to showcase, like, what they designed. And how I also see we get stuck on this proposal cycle too, and then it can become, like, There's no time to ever do this kinda innovative thinking with building out the website, building out the social media strategy, or creating content that supports that, like through blogs or videos or any of these. I mean, there's so many. Evelyn and I talk all the time about how many how many innovative ways if you look at marketing beyond AEC, there's some really innovative things going on there with digital marketing and trying to find ways to bring those ideas back into our industry to stand out apart from the competition. But getting stuck on doing it the same way as we've always done it and proposals, like, as a just reactionary process is like I think it's a it has some value, but it also has some problems that are gonna, like, limit people's ability to do what they really wanna achieve.

C I completely agree. I think, sometimes I think we do too much hand holding in this industry. Like, oh, history. Like, oh, you know, my my clients won't understand it, yet they go to order Uber Eats and use all the other things, and they receive those same Emails and and things. So it's not like they can't. They definitely definitely can. So there there's a couple of things that I've done that how Help me through that. Do it so I started doing lunch and learns.

C So now mind you, when I'm in this firm, I am, how At that point, about 23, 24, nobody want to you know, they want to hear me talk about social media, maybe. They trusted it, and that was about it. But I had it really going down this content, wave. And when I broke off and and started my own company, I found myself doing this how Really cool presentation that got a 100% success rate every time I explained it. Simply talking about the decision making process how to upper management and talking to them about what that looks like. Let's say, you know, it's almost like 96 how Percent of people have already made their decision by the time they get to evaluate options or or or making, making their decision. So how You have defined problem, gather data, evaluate options, and, make a decision. Before, how Gather data included the vendor.

C Right? I'm gonna call you, ask you some questions, but now that's not the case. Now people are getting all their information in that gather data phase how on this computer and and going through and talking to people and that sort of thing. So that those are the kind of conversations I like to have with how Upper management that has nothing to do with marketing. Right? And when I was able to speak intelligently about that and why this is so important, It turned out that they were they were willing to make a position for me because they realized how much time this took, because there's no way there's no way to do this while also doing proposals nonstop. The it's just not humanly possible. And I think that how Giving that very clear, even hourly breakdown of what that takes versus, you know, doing proposals and giving real life examples like, how Look, bro. This is not, you know, this is not gonna happen. There's no the proposals would take 35 hours of my week.

C How I can't create a whole digital strategy that's gonna help and and be beneficial in in my good use of my time, within that time frame. So that was my way of kinda talking through the the leadership and really just helping them how Understand why this is so important.

A Is there a specific channel that works better for how different types of firms. Like, I rarely see like, I and and if you have any opinion actually on Pinterest, I would actually how be interested.

C That's interesting. I didn't think about Pinterest for for arch because I'm use I'm usually dealing within engineering and and contractors, so I'm like, how You don't need you don't need that. Architecture, however, is very visual. So I would I would say that that's definitely definitely, how Something of interest. But what I always say when when anybody thinks about, you know, the different social media outlets, it's going back to who's your audience. Like, I'm being honest about it. Who is your audience, and would they be here? Don't waste your time on something that your audience just isn't gonna be. But we also have to think about there's decision makers because people are like, oh, decision makers aren't gonna do this.

C But keep in mind that the influencers how just as important as the decision makers. A great example is that I was tasked with finding our website, vendor, at least a top 4 or 5 how to bring to my decision makers. So as an influencer, I have a lot of power in who even comes to the table. So thinking about, okay, who are the influencers? Are they, you know, Mid 30 some things. Where are they at? And are they in sync with where like, if I'm on Facebook, am I looking up things that have to do with work? How Probably not. But I also tell people, with recruiting, that's a completely different story. If you wanna be on Instagram And you wanna recruit, you know, college college athletes, college kids and and those kind of things, and that's how That's how you do that. It's all about who your audience is in creating that.

C I mean, and a great example is Twitter. LinkedIn is easy. That's like a given. But linked or, Twitter, I actually found to be really great of relationship building, with different publishers, different, publications overall how Because it is so back and forth, and it's very hard to get through to somebody who has thousands of emails to go through. It's a little bit easier to go through their DM, how And send them blogs and stuff that way. So, you know, there's so many different ways to go about it, but knowing your audience is probably the most important part.

A And then for the complete newbie out there,

C how

A do I understand where my audience is?

C So how Here's what I do, and this is probably weird, but I don't mind. I I will happily accept it, is I look, and I I do this too with some of, the project managers and the people that directly work with who our clients are. I'll find some pictures of what I think they look like. How Like, let's just you know, so, about this type of person, you look at the personas. And I think as people, we have a good gut reaction of what Maybe what they would be. So that you can also, take this from the web analytics of your website. You can see if how The the comparison of men to women. You can see the age ranges.

C You can see the interest. So you can pull together what this how person would look like him, and it's a call. All of marketing is the guest. You know? It's like, well, I think for the most part, The CEO of CEO Hospitals are probably not gonna be, you know, wherever. I don't know. But let's think of and it it is how Completely, like, putting people in boxes, but that's that's how you gotta do marketing anyway. You know? So that's what I would say. Start with some analytics, give you some insight, how And then really ask the people around you.

C Who are these people? You know? What do they do? What do they like? Are they happy? Are they trying to move fast? Because you have also how A lot of personal insights when it comes to types of job titles, procurement is a different kinda energy than, you know, say, an architect. How So it just really depends.

A So we've talked about it a lot from the firm level. I think a lot of individuals are how Questioning right now, do I need to build a personal brand strategy? So, you know, even for our middle managers who how probably don't have as much voice as they want in Affirm or even from the new college graduate who's really looking to get themselves out in the world. How What is your advice to those individuals?

C What I would say is personal branding is probably the reason why I am still going how The the way that I'm going. I randomly thought and branded myself as the content whisperer. It's how Followed me, and I'm grateful for it. And it it is who I am. I think personal branding, no matter who you are, whatever industry that you're in, I think, you are your brand when you walk in. You know? You're your brand when you speak. I think that, you know, it doesn't have to be so, you know, logos and, you know, all those things that we think about branding, but it is important. I I want as a client, let's say, how I wanna work with this specific middle manager that is great because I love working with him or her.

C And that that brand will probably go with wherever they go. You know? So we're talking about business developers or or something like that. How Hey. I'm moving from this from this firm. They probably go with you. So I think that those the personal branding, you have to do it. How And what what I heard someone is like, if you don't if you don't brand yourself, someone else will. And, you know, it's kinda like you might as well have control over it.

B I wanted to give you a chance to talk about some of the workshops that you've been doing, and one that really stood out to me recently was, I think the title was, essentially, They're Not Reading What You're Writing. And I love that title. Can you give us a brief synopsis of what that workshop's all about?

C Yeah. Sure. So that is easily probably one of the most popular right now, And, and it really came from a really strange place. So, let's start with it's called nobody's reading that, how Crafting content for the scanning eye. I think that as people, we think that people are just gonna read everything they were gonna do and all that stuff or, You know, read through our long captions, and the truth is probably not. You know? And that's okay. It's it's not it doesn't make you any less of a person. It just means that how Think about yourself.

C Are you reading everybody's captions? Probably not. So, you know, that that's where it started. I how kept on saying that to myself scrolling through Instagram. Like, nobody's reading, like, nobody's reading that. Like, why would they so it turned into how The way we craft content overall, like using white space, using bold, captions and, you know, text treatments and how you get to your point. Because the goal is not how necessarily like, oh, nobody's ever gonna read it. No. What you your goal is to give them give you more time than the 8 seconds how that I think is shorter, that you have.

C So if I'm going through your blog or case study or even your proposal, because in that Presentation. It's mostly about proposals. What do what are the highlights that I need to see as this CFO, procurement, project manager. What are those things? And they need to have a visual aspect to them. So that's really what we go and dive deep into. What are the how been things that people, are looking for, what are CEOs, different types of things, and figuring out, how Okay. If if important to them, we need to make sure there's this big stat that we understand, that hospitals are going through x y z. How They understand me.

C That's important to see, and that may be a big block of text or something like that. So that's really how What we dig dig into is giving you more time at the table, because people are scanning, and you don't have any control over it. So what can you do about it, how Instead of complaining. You know? So, depth through all text blocks, please. I I hate it. No.

A I mean, that's really interesting because, you know, I left traditional practice a while ago, and I believe that everything is a design problem. So you talk about white space and even how it shows up, in a news feed, like, everything you're putting out there is reflective of your design aesthetic. So I think, you know, just Reminding all of our listeners to kind of keep that in mind.

B I know you do a lot of speaking with marketers. What do you think the big discoveries they're gaining through, some of the workshops you're offering? How Because and I'll drop a hint. This is where I'm going with this. I want to help get you more in front of architects Yeah. So that they can hear what you're talking about because I think They are our decision makers, and you have so much great insight to share with our profession. And so Evelyn and I are gonna how figure out how to either get you in the AIA door or come work with us at POA.

C Yes. No. Thank you so much. So, as far as takeaways, I think there's a lot of moments that that come. Some are actual, have to do with the content. A lot of it has to do with energy. I'm gonna be completely honest with you. I think that sometimes that refreshing energetic energy when you're talking about something that you're passionate about Comes across.

C And I think that, a lot of times, marketers are finding like, wow. I lost that. You know, people came up to me crying about certain things, when I was just speaking about passion and how we ignite it. So that that's one of the big takeaways is I can have more fun with this than I thought. And I think that that is one of the the best things that I think people take away. As far as content wise, I think they are realizing, one of the best compliments that I continually get is, I know how to apply this. How You you brought up the problem, and now I have tools to actually do it. That doesn't feel overwhelming.

C And because I was a proposal person how and trying to do it all at the same time, I have insight into I know this is not realistic in the time slot, but I think that them knowing that I understand them opens up a, you know, a space where people are just more open how And, you know, understanding to to the fact that we can do more and and a community effort to do how

B That's true. There's, like, a level of trust. I think Mhmm. I think it's fair to say a lot of marketers feel like they're not understood how stood within their companies.

C Absolutely. And

B so probably I mean, I I I certainly felt it when I went to the SMPS workshop as a marketer. Like, being in that community, it gives you a space where you feel like you're with peers who understand the challenges that you're going through. And I do think while architects try to understand those challenges for marketers, it is very specific to the role that they're playing at that moment. What do you think firm leaders or owners need to understand to better support their marketing teams?

C How So I think, I think understanding the process, is probably one of the most important things. How I had a, a CMO that came on as I was, kinda growing up in in my former organization, how And, he listened. I and and also as a marketer, I didn't come from a place of Negativity or being mad or anything like that. Just speaking like, okay. This is what I wanna do. This is where I think we can go. How I think creating a space to listen to that. I also think that it's important for owners to hear, how Not just from their particular people, but from people like me maybe.

C That sometimes you need to get outside of, you know, how Hearing John complain about the same things over and over again, but when you hear it over here talking about the same, it was Oh, I remember having several, you know, CEOs, c suite people jump in, and they're like, well, okay. I guess this is a bigger problem. I guess I do need to higher. I guess I do I didn't realize that it was taking so much time. And then there's, you know, that respect level that we, you know, as marketers, just aren't always given, especially when you go into these spaces of architects and engineers. Like, there's there's a a an an arrogance. It's how It's cool, but there that's there, and that's sometimes hard to, get in touch with because I believe, wholeheartedly that marketing is an art. I think also owners need to probably see if the people that they're having do the marketing are the right fit.

C Because I see a lot of times that, you know, they they may pass it off to someone that has no experience in marketing and wonder why how You know, marketing is not that important. Well, get someone that cares. You know? I think that's important too. So The the biggest thing probably overall is listening and understanding how the world is changing and how you adapt to it. If we know that how We got time before there's big conferences and things like that. We need to figure out a different way to get our content across. We need to figure out a way that's not how Overwhelming, and you're calling these people every day. Let's add them to a email list.

C Let's send them content that way. Let's, how You know, create this article that for just some special people. Those things and that exclusivity, those things feel really, really good. How And, you know, I think owners should really take note that there's more that we can do than just feel like, you know, the burden is all on them. You create a a a awesome campaign digital campaign. It does the work for you. The emails will be sent automatically. You know, it just makes things how Easier.

C So I think just being open to that, you can get a a lot done with having a machine work, than just a business developer.

A How I think that's a big thing to note too that we haven't even begun to touch on. Like, so much of this can be batched how and automated, including entire email campaigns. I see you I see you nodding. It's funny because, you know, in running practice of architecture, Sure. I'm just learning things like this is my top of funnel market. This is my mid of funnel market. And I feel like as business owners how And entrepreneurs, architects should actually know about a little bit more about these terms and and what it means to bring somebody from top of funnel through and and convert how Middle of the funnel. But, what are some other things that, like, architects and entrepreneurs should be aware about how that they that they might not know in this space at all.

C So, I would say a big piece is how Understanding audience. It's so, so important to to know who you're selling to and who you're who you're trying to Essentially move to work with with you. Still doing some real research and understanding personas and how deep they can go, I think that's really important. I think, Google Analytics is also very important even from a very general standpoint, Knowing how many views you're getting, what what's the most popular, what what are the, what page is getting the most time on the site, all of those things I think how should be able to find fairly easily because they can sometimes answer questions or better, which is what I did, use it as proof, that what I was saying was not fluffy. It actually had a meaning. Hey. Look at this. The last year, how This service got more.

C That's not a marketing fluff judgment. That is that is what's happening. So how Using especially for marketers and, you know, people that are trying to make a point. You know, data is is everything, proving. I had so many screenshots on my computer. I really should just eventually throw them out, but, you know, proof is everything.

B That's true because you can't make your emotional reaction. Like, you know, I've gotta protect this education portfolio. You can show, like, where the leads are coming from.

C Yes. How And and that's so important for marketers too is that, and a lot of times, I remember I was getting water one day, and it was, like, probably how 6 months later, he's like, oh, thanks for helping us with that, putting that new project up on the website. We just got a how Somebody called us about we just got a job. Isn't that crazy? And I'm like, yeah. Uh-huh. Something you should help me. You know? So we don't always know, but when I can, I always screenshot emails, to just how Later proof? You never know what those screenshots lead up to. And, literally, there was some that was over that 2 year how SPAN started with an email, turned into an actual I think it was, like, a a good $20,000,000 project.

C So how To me, that was a good use of time, to make that that profile, to do those case studies, to do that email. How It turned into money. So I think that those are the little things that people need to hear too, which is the proof. And I I definitely have how can talk through a lot of that proof, happily during presentations and things. I got so many good stories.

B You also mentioned campaigns. Can you briefly touch on the power of campaigns?

C So campaigns, when done right let me let me back up to that. What is it? The the marketing rule of 7. Right? The marketing rule of 7 says you have to see something at least 7 times how even notice it. We're constantly scanning. We're on TV watching commercials. But it now because it's so much, it takes 7 times for us to even notice it. So it's important for campaigns because that allows you to hit those 7 times. So you have the campaign on social media.

C You have a email sending out. You have maybe your business developer calling and saying, hey. I'll forward you this case study that has to do with the campaign. The point is is to get to that 7 all the way through, and that's when you really start building building loyalty. And ultimately And hopefully, that slows down our proposal generation because we could just have repeat customers, and that would be great. So, you know, it it all how ties into it. But like like we said and Evelyn said before, it is the long play. It it's completely being how thoughtful about what you're putting out into the world and letting it be and let it return back to you, and I believe that with a lot of things.

A How I I think a lot of firm owners are asking. I mean, obviously, we're stuck in a pandemic right now, and as you've kind of how Talked to you. There's a lot of reason why we should be doing this type of marketing now or why we should have had it in place, now that we are stuck where we are. But as we emerge from the pandemic, you know, does how we market continue to evolve. What is what is post pandemic marketing look like to you? Is it any different? Where should we be focused.

C I think what we've I guess, the silver lining, it's been how Crazy. It's been horrible for a lot of different families. But the silver lining is I think that everyone's worlds have emerged, their work life, their home life, and I don't think you can just jump out of that after this. There, how I think that AEC, the future AEC and and mind you, that whole industry, we it was illegal to market initially. How Right? So it just took it took a while for us to even start, so that's why we're so behind. Anyway,

A I'm glad you're making an cues for them. But

C Yeah. Right. I I try. And this is this is how we I win them over. Right? Oh, yeah. You're right. But now

B not your fault.

A It's not your fault.

C But I do think that there's a, a human approach that I hope comes with with the future of AEC and the the future of, Marketing in general. I have found so much, success by just being myself, You know, by telling the real stories and and letting that show through. I think too many firms how are only putting their logos. Let's put people out there. Let's talk about the contributors of these blogs, not just, you know, this was x, y, z company. I I that's what I hope to see, and people start connecting with those humans, not just the logos. And I think that that will create better project, how Probably even better concepts, as we as we come together. So that's what I'm hoping for in the future and and overall people believing that I was been talking about content marketing for the last or at least in this in this space, last 3 years straight.

C How So it's kind of fun getting to a point where, like, I didn't say I told you so, but here we are. And I'm I'm I'm happy, that I think people are really starting to tune in and pay attention.

B So this episode was meant to look at digital marketing and all the ways that shows up in a marketing marketing strategy from content development to different methods of digitization of marketing, such as search engine optimization and more, and Danielle shared a lot of different ideas with us that I think we can kinda dive into some of the highlights.

A Right. I think one of the things that she really expressed that I feel architecture firms actually do not do enough of how is to have personality. I mean, she even said that there's an opportunity for architecture firms to bring greater personality how to their marketing strategy. And if I look and I comb through even some of my my more favorite architect firms websites, I'm going there because of the beautiful imagery, which is very different than actually building a personality that how kind of represents who the firm is and what it would be like to to work with them.

B That's a good point. I think how voice is becoming a more and more important element of marketing. And to make a few points on why, it's it's really because, You know, when when you're an architect, you're designing something customized for someone to use, and It's not just about this beautiful finished product that we create. Yes. Of course, we're all aspiring to create those gorgeous details and get that killer photography that we can win a design award or share and it and it looks stunning in the photography. But In reality, when you're hiring an architect, you're hiring people. You're hiring a team. And so bringing in that element of trying to understand like, if I'm gonna spend all this money, I wanna know what it's gonna be like to work with this company.

B What do they stand for? What do they believe in? What other people like. Am I gonna am I gonna be able to put up with this project architect in a year when we how move past the honeymoon phase, and and trying to communicate those ideas to really talk about your voice and what you care about and what's meaningful is what makes a really compelling marketing strategy.

A Right. And I actually never truly understood the value of voice or fully understood the value of voice until I got to Slack. How There is a whole workshop. There's this whole 2 2 hour workshop that any employee can take on the Slack voice how and how we're integrating it through everything we do. So we'll post this link down at the bottom of, our show notes. But one of the how Fun things to do at Slack actually is to look through our release notes. So when you think about when your computer updates how or your phone updates or any software you have on your phone updates, and it says, fix x, y, and z bug. Slack interjects their voice how into their release notes.

A So on January 8, 2021, for instance, bug fixes. We tweak some things too small to notice or too difficult to explain. How We'll return you to your regular, more interesting types of release next time, we hope. Just an added twist of personality how That kind of is reflective of what I feel like it is to work at Slack. We're very personable how individuals, and and that's how we want our product to be perceived as well. So there there are definitely other how companies that are out there, where their voice comes through in every single thing that they are delivering to the public, whether it's on Twitter or Instagram.

B How Right. And to your point, marketing and digital marketing is really multifaceted. And so sometimes that can be a little overwhelming for, people to think about, like, okay. Well, how do I how do I build out a marketing strategy? And, really, you know, as Danielle put it, it is a it's a long game. You're you build content over time. It doesn't all start at once. You identify a few platforms that you wanna start investing in, whether it's, you know, creating a website that has a little bit more functionality to it and personality or starting to step into your social media strategy. How people are testing new platforms like YouTube.

B And, in fact, podcasting is a form of marketing, but how Digital strategy is quite broad. And as Danielle was talking about content, You know, I I often think about it even in our own work, Evelyn. Like, content strategy is really about putting 1 brick down at time, and over time, you create a wall, you know, of work. So it's it's a process. It's building multiple layers of information around communicating the value of your identity and brand.

A Right. And I think there is a more altruistic way to come across with content marketing than your typical proposal how or your sales pitch and well, it can actually be integrated into proposals. Danielle has this phrase, listen and solve, not tell and sell. And if you look at all of the marketers out there and outside of even the architecture profession, what people are trying to do right now how tell a story or tell a narrative of how they're helping other people solve their problems, and then the result is that how People will come to me to help them solve those similar problems. So I think there's so many different ways to how Take a project and really deconstruct all of the challenges and the outcomes that came out of that project and the unique how Problem solving and solutions that either the project drove or that you as the architect drove when it comes to helping the client think bigger. Like, those are really interesting stories to begin to tell that says a whole lot more than just the end result.

B Yeah. And please don't tell me it was on time and on budget. I know that's a very favorite thing to include in a proposal, but, like, Go deeper. Tell me more. Tell me what was so unique about this project, how you overcame the challenges. I think Working with architects on marketing, there's so much more opportunity to dive further into telling the story of the work how that architects are doing every day. And another nugget that I pulled from our conversation with Danielle that I loved was how She talked about going into her firm that she was helping to build a content strategy and starting by looking at the decision making process of the clients that they wanted to attract and kinda working backwards. Like, where are they gonna go for information? And if you've ever met someone for the 1st time, where do you go? You go to the Internet, and you go look them up on the Internet.

B You might find their LinkedIn page. You might find their website. Or perhaps you're considering hiring someone, and you You just wanna find out a little bit more about their background and where they worked, and so you land on their firm page. If you think about that in the context of who's hiring architects. I mean, Evelyn, you do hiring with architects all the time, and I'm sure that when you're reviewing these proposals and going through the interview process. You're pulling up information off the Internet, whatever is landing on your search page, To better understand who are these players, what kinds of projects have they worked on, where are these projects. So you think of digital strategy as really informing the decisions that clients are making in the hiring process. And so thinking about digital strategy and the reason it's so important to invest in it is because people are gonna go find that information whether you build it out or not.

B So you better be investing in what information is being put out there on the Internet so that they're getting the best information you can how to provide.

A Right. Danielle said, you know, if you don't brand yourself, someone else will. I don't think she's actually the originator of that quote. I could we could probably go look that up. But You're right. For me, it was interesting because just in hearing you say that, the website actually becomes so much more important than it ever has because In my in my instance, it's not necessarily the first stop. Right? I we will send out an RFP how through various different means. I will look through the proposal, and we are very specific about including questions about the project, not to get architects to do extra work, but to actually get architects to send something other than their standard marketing proposal, so we can we can understand how they're working a little bit more.

A Like, it's it is very apparent if it's a cut and paste how Marketing proposal for us. And then my 2nd stop is always the website. You know, how are they you know, They say they're a team player, but then I go to the website and all I see is partners on the about us page. They have no language on there how about the community of the firm. So in that way, the website almost becomes even more important Because it's like the 2nd tie. It's like where I go to see if their marketing is being true to what they're putting out there or to see if their firm is being true to what they're putting out in the marketing materials. And, yeah, it it needs to be consistent.

B Yeah. Well, it needs to back it up to your point. You know, you can start to find holes in, you know, how people are communicating about themselves. It's very easy to write things that, you know, you want your client to believe about you. But I think the beauty of content marketing and strategy and a lot of what our how our different communications experts are trying to do with firms is to push those conversations further so that they're really truly meaningful and they have depth. And in this world that we're living in, it's a completely digitally engaged world. How people are sophisticated to find that information, and they see through, things that kinda aren't valid or true. So I think there's just so much potential.

B And while we're at the beginning of this kind of work, it's gonna be exponentially more important as we continue forward into the next decade. There are

A so many more studies being done on the value of storytelling. And if you think about, like, what story you have to tell besides how The pretty buildings you build. I think so much more could be devoted even to the process page or to the case study of an individual project. You know, to whatever extent the client allows you to speak about them. You know, if you're a high end residential architect, tell us a little bit more about the family how the individuals that you were designing for. Why did you do things differently in this project and the way you approached their project, than you had on any other how matter. You know, how often do you do you bring individuals along with you to do all the material selection? Like, what how What is that process like for your potential future clients? And then, you know, if you you do schools or hospitals or higher ed, you know, there's I think there's so much how that you could share about your stakeholder engagement process, how you get more of a bring more of a community voice into the decisions that you're making, how you have taken your research and your expertise and applied that to allow for greater daylighting into patient rooms how or into the classroom and why that is more effective. I understand, like, these are things that we know and we live and we breathe, But we're marketing to people who don't live and breathe this every day.

A So telling all of those little details, I think, even if you think it's too much, how Somebody who's looking for the right client at the right time will find something in that information. And I think the other great thing Danielle said is how She's a content marketer, and she's repackaging things all the time. So if you have this really long case story, that means that you might have how Ten x, 20 x different types of materials that come out of that one longer case study.

B Yeah. Absolutely. There's a lot of opportunity, and I just wanna clarify for a lot of people who are thinking about what kind of content they can build out. There's no magical equation for how to do this. Like, it's really simple. You don't have to think very hard about it. Like, in your everyday job as an architect or, designer. You're doing really interesting things.

B You just don't see it because you're so close to it. But if you if you how Talk to somebody about it. If you write down ideas about what you're doing on a day to day basis, you know, you get these little nuggets of things that are super interesting. Housing. I remember one day, I walked into my office and 2 members from our team were sitting at the front conference table, and they were looking at color samples in the front window of our storefront, and it just made for this beautiful moment of, like, oh my gosh. This is like, working in an architecture firm. They're, like, comparing all these color samples and deciding what's the best one. Is this yellow better than this yellow? And It was just a small poetic moment of, like, the beauty of architecture, and you have to share that with your clients.

B Draw them into the process. How Make them feel like you're offering something truly unique to them and only something that you can give.

A How Right. And, you know, on our side, I I was used I used to do marketing strategy at MK Think, which was how odd because we essentially would respond to RFPs saying, we think you wrote the RFP wrong, and here's how we would approach it. The business development process was a lot longer. I would say I don't know. Almost 9 out of 10 times, we got invited to the interview because they were interested how in our approach because we said we would have done this differently. Here's how. That didn't translate to the job, but that how meant that the next time they were getting ready for a project, they knew to call us in earlier. So in particular, the the business development strategy was how Longer because of that, but but that was how we positioned ourself differently by telling a really unique story and even go how So far as to say we we didn't necessarily say they were wrong straight up, but we just said, we think you would get more value out of it if you approached it this way.

B Which is really what a client's looking for. They're looking for you to tell them how to maximize their dollar, how to get the best project, to get it above what anyone else can give them.

A Janine, I I think you and I Could go on and on talking about this topic and the importance of this topic. I think, you know, the biggest takeaway is how That every single architecture firm out there has a unique voice, and it can be an incredibly powerful if you know how to leverage it correct. So take a look at your marketing and try to figure out what it's saying about your firm to others how and see if it's headed in the right direction. Thanks for listening, and tune in next week. Thanks for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Visit us at practice of architecture.com to find out more about future episodes how

C and the changing nature of practice.

B We have several ways you can get involved with our growing community. Find us on social media at practice of ARC. You can also become a member of the POA lab or join us on Patreon.

A And if you wanna take your career practice to the next level, how Janine and I also consult, provide workshops, and speak regularly on this research, and we would love an opportunity to collaborate with you.

B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting g ablmedia.com.

A We are also looking for sponsors who want to partner with us in 2021 and beyond. If that's you, how Please contact me directly at evelyn@practiceofarchitecture.com.

B If you like the research we're doing here, please help us out by leaving a rating or you on Apple. We appreciate you subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

A Don't forget to share with your friends, how And feel free to let us know what other topics or speakers you are interested in hearing from. Thanks for listening, and see you next