Talent Development in Practice

A This episode of practice disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operations solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Before we get started, I wanna make sure we take a moment to talk about section cut. We both participated in Monograph's very first virtual conference, and it's worth mentioning that over 1,000 people were registered to attend, including representatives from major architecture firms.

A Yeah. So we to be fair, we love the individuals over at SectionCut. They've been good friends and supporters of the podcast. But what I really loved about the conference is I felt surrounded by my people, the people in the architecture profession that kind of geek out on operations and how you treat your employees, really actually wanting to put your employees first, and also kind of the data around how do we do things more efficiently and be more productive. So as a presenter, I was, a little bit drained by the end of the day. But as a participant, I also ended the day with this, I wouldn't say good energy because I was drained, but a lot of a lot of positive emotional feelings going forward from the event.

B There were so many great sessions that I attended, and it gave me hope about the future of the practice. And, really, I think monograph, kudos because you guys just raised the bar for how the industry should be doing conferences. And all of the sessions are gonna be uploaded to YouTube. So if you weren't able to participate or you wanna go back and listen to something again from the conference, be sure to go to YouTube, check out monograph's page, and watch some of the videos. But I wanna talk specifically about your session, Evelyn, with, Elaine and Michelle from Snohetta because that was one of my favorite sessions, and you did that along with Chris from Monograph. So Elaine, who's a partner and the managing director of Snohetta, said something to the effect that architects get into this work to do the work they love, not to run a business. But at some point, I guess, know how to recognize that there was a need to prioritize running the business in order to be able to do the work they love better. And so I wanted to follow-up on that and see what your takeaway was from that session because I just I loved it and it was great.

A Yeah. And the interesting thing is we didn't even really dig super deep on operations because frankly, there just wasn't enough time. But I remember seeing Craig Dikers, I don't know I don't know how many years ago at MDC. This is when Snowheader was a lot smaller. Sorry. MDC is the Monterey Design Conference. And even then, pre the 10 years that I think Elaine alluded to where they, like, created more structure around people, they had this idea of a lunch table where everyone sits down and eats lunch together, which there's actually a few other Southern California firms that I know of that does this, so it's not necessarily specific to them. But in addition, they had this notion of addressing the equity and pay across their firm very early.

A So they really look at, like, what are their partners getting paid versus what are the newest people getting paid, And they try to minimize what that gap is. And I'm sure they're they're effectively doing that even as the firm grows in popularity and continues to take on on more clients and and grows geographically. So, anyways, I think we, like, literally just hit the tip of the iceberg. I would love to bring them back onto the podcast to go a little bit deeper. So if our audience members would love that follow-up, you know, reach out to us. Let us know on social media. But I I think we're going to be definitely reaching out, to Monograph to make that connection for us. And just as a general follow-up, again, thank you to all of the now 30 employees over at Monograph, and especially to their founders for being such an amazing partner for us.

B Okay. Time to jump to today's episode. And this one's something really special for me because I've invited a close friend to join us. Amy Parincchio is a principal at ZGF Architects in Portland, but I know her as Amy. She's the former West Quad director of the AIAS. We both started our careers together in the AIAS. And for those who don't know, the American Institute of Architecture Students is one of the largest student run nonprofits in the country. It's not to be confused as a subset of the AIA, but it's actually an independent, organization that works closely with the AIA and connects all of the architecture programs in the US by advocating on behalf of students who are studying architecture.

A Yeah. I've always been really impressed by the AIS leadership. I think if I'm ever concern like, we've talked about this. I'm generally a pessimist by nature. But if I'm ever, like, needing a pick me up, I kind of look towards the AIAS and what they're doing, and then I'm like, wow. The the future looks like a lot brighter for us. Being on the national board of directors, we have an AIAS representative there, and I've made some great friends from my duties on the AIA national board and and meeting those individuals. So, you know, Andrew Caruso and Anthony Finke being kind of a duo that comes out of that.

A So I just think it's an amazing leadership pipeline development center. It does it by being a great organization. It it does it unintentionally. Like, I like, there's no necessarily goal that I know of, for the AIAS to develop this leadership pipeline, but a lot of great individuals have come out of the organization.

B Definitely. And I think it's a great place for people who are early in their career that just gravitate towards leadership naturally. I think that's typically a lot of the leaders that come out of it. That's what I see. They just they have that curiosity early on, and then they can go explore it in AIS. And so that's actually what happened with me and Amy. We were both directors when we started out in our roles there. We were elected by our peers from architecture programs in our regions.

B We joined a cohort of 5 women who represented the 4 US regions at the time on the board, plus our national vice president, Deanna Moore, who's one of my dear friends. So I can say from experience being on a board of directors that's mostly women with 1 male president at the time, JW Blanchard, is a completely different cultural experience than being on a board of directors that's mostly men. And, actually, Brad Grant, who was on our board at the time and teaches at Howard, was one of the board members who commented on that in his outgoing comments from the board. He spoke about the compassion he saw in the group, and I think it was generally just a different leadership style.

A I think this really actually gets carried on through the National Associates Committee and the Young Architects Forum. So they just had their selection process for, their leadership teams too. But if you are an emerging professional and you are interested in getting more engaged, there are these other groups kind of coming off of the AIAS that has that same type of mentality. And and I can also name kind of lifelong friendships that I built from the leadership in those cohorts. And I'm even though I'm no longer a young architect by definition of what the AIA considers a long a young architect, I'm I def I'm still very much kind of involved in at least knowing what that group is is doing and how they're contributing to their profession.

B And it's worth mentioning that after AIS, Amy went on to serve on the National Architectural Accrediting Board, on the board of directors or NAAB, which is the governing body that oversees accreditation requirements in architecture programs across the US. And since launching her career, she joined ZGF and has been on a path of growth through the organization, including working towards project architect and now principal. But I'm gonna segue to Evelyn who will give you the full bio.

A Amy Parentchio, AIA NCARB, is a principal at ZGF Architects and licensed architect in Portland, Oregon. Dedicated to the professional growth and development of the design staff at ZGF, Amy oversees the staffing and recruiting efforts for a group of a 130 designers and architects and works at the intersection of people and practice. Amy previously held director positions on the National AIAS and NIAB boards and various committees and task forces for NCARB. She is passionate about teaching and growing the next generation of architects and has been a course instructor at the University of Oregon since 2017 and adjunct professor for the Global Track Program at the University of Hawaii and Tongji University. Let's cut to the interview.

B Welcome, Amy. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today. We have been friends for a long time, and I know all these amazing things about you. And I'm just excited that our listeners are gonna get a chance to meet you and learn about your career.

C Janine, it's so great to be here. I, I'm I'm glad to be talking about staff development. But for for those of you that don't know me, my name is Amy Perentiu. I'm a principal at NCGF Architects based out of our Portland office. And I I started out my career kind of on that traditional path for architecture. I went to architecture school for my undergrad at Washington State University, and then I moved to the University of Oregon for my master's degree. And and while I was in school, I was really drawn to architecture for that kind of creative problem solving. I started in school as a physics major, so I really loved the idea of, like, that kind of logical thinking and and really kind of trying to understand the world through problems.

C But it wasn't at that point in my career, wasn't as create using that kind of, like, physical creative brain that I have as well. And so architecture really kind of paired both of them. I think, you know, when I was in school, there was a moment where we were, preparing for kind of the, AIS forum, which is the national conference for architecture students in the US. And there was a call that was, that went out for people to run for the national board, and this is where I met Janine. I kinda made a a last minute decision in studio class one night when we were preparing for our our midterms to run, for West quad director. And and that decision, even though it was kind of made on a whim, kind of changed the trajectory of my career in a big way. So I I, was luckily, elected to the national board. That national board role really was my first exposure to professional development outside of kind of the traditional rounds that you might expect, And and that kind of helped shaped kind of why why I'm passionate about kind of helping others in their careers and helping others get kind of this this opportunity to kind of grow and develop in in different ways and and has allowed me the opportunity to really kind of dive into things that I'm I'm excited about.

C Mentorship is one of them and really kind of helping others. I think, you know, being on on that national board allowed me to kind of take a a a bigger kind of viewpoint of the profession and people. So after, I'd say about 8 or 8 years of my career, I I transitioned into this role. The the ZGF partners asked me to step in and really kind of, do something different. I was kind of on track and and doing more of kind of the project architects kind of stuff, more of the technical kind of side of architecture and and always had a passion for the people side. I was pushing on different initiatives within our firm or or different things. I was involved with recruiting, very early on in my career at ZGS, so that was kind of just a natural transition. And I'm really excited to be doing what I'm doing and talking about that here today.

B Yeah. I I vividly remember the first time I met you. We were we were candidates for AIS, and we had flown in knowing that we were gonna be running these campaigns. And I walk into this boardroom in Wisconsin, and you were the you were the first person I saw. And we sat down next to each other kind of knowing that we were heading into this campaign experience. And we were in school still, and I just it's such a important memory for me because it was the beginning of, like, this long leadership experience that both of you and I have been on, you know, my path through AIA and your path has taken you, through the NAB as well as into ZGF's leadership. So it's it's cool for me to look back and see how far we've come as women leading in this space. So maybe the next place we go is to dive deeper into this role at ZGF.

B So as you mentioned, you were an architect at ZGF, and you moved into a role that better aligns with your passions. So let's start by talking about what is your role, and then maybe we can talk about why you love it and what you do in this position.

C Yeah. So in my role, I bridge kind of practice operations, people, and firm culture all in kind of the kind of the the stuff that I do. It it's it's a wide kind of variety. I feel like I need to kind of preface this, but ZGF is really a place where you can kind of chart your own course. And and because of that, a lot of these kind of specialty roles like the one that I play don't come with a title. But you might be able to maybe call me kind of like a staffing and recruiting manager, but I feel like that doesn't even encompass kind of like all of the things that I do. So I'm not considered HR or or people and culture is what we call it in our firm, but I work really closely with them. And I can talk a little bit more as we get into our conversation about kind of like the the reasons why I think it's important for someone with a background in architecture to do staff development in an architecture firm.

C It doesn't mean that that's the solution for all architecture firms, but it's definitely something that makes this role at DGF really successful. So in this role, I'd say what I do in this position, I I would, I guess, another kind of precursor to this is, like, I I should start by talking about, like, you know, staff resourcing and talent management is a really complex and fluid task at DGF. Our firm doesn't have studios. And as a large firm, that that that lack of kind of, like, structure serves us very well. Our staff work across different project typologies, different roles, and our office boundaries, and that helps us really stay nimble. In my role in particular, I really, assess, like, employee skill sets, professional goals, and align them kind of with project expectations or project assignments to balance our firm wide and our office wide kind of staff utilization. So that's one piece of it. And then I in the recruiting role and outreach role, I do all of the recruiting and outreach for for my group internships as part of that.

C So I'm setting kind of the course for someone's experience no matter kind of how short or or long in in duration, and and that includes the onboarding process and really getting staff kind of up to speed and and ready to contribute in in big ways really quickly. In addition to all of that, I I manage our our performance review process for our group, and and quite a few other kind of strategic initiatives and management tasks that go beyond the kind of those those, main two kind of buckets. You ask why I love it. I I feel like I could talk for hours about why I love doing this. It's for a couple of reasons. I think, you know, I I get to be in a place where my actions can have a really big impact both on the success for our individual staff, but also the outcome of our projects. I think the the second piece is is a little less, clear if you if you think about that kind of, like, impact. But if if people are happy, then, like, our our projects are happy and successful.

C I I from a very early point in my career, I've learned that, like, helping people grow and succeed in their careers brings me a lot of joy, which is something you might not hear from everyone. But I feel so happy when someone talks about kind of what they've learned from a project assignment that I helped create for them or how it helped them kind of achieve their goal a goal of theirs. And I kind of feed off that passion, that our staff have for the work. So being able to be kind of in the middle of all that is just it's it's a dream job. There's a lot of hard stuff that comes with it, but it for the most part, that's, like, that's why I love it. On the the other side, like, the effort of staffing in a really large firm without studios is a big creative problem to be solved. So, you know, when I when I talked about coming into architecture, I still get to, like, do what I came to architecture for, but with different parameters. Right? So instead of, like, working on kind of waterproofing details or working with consultants to kind of figure out kind of the MEP systems of a building, the kind of the harder the hard concrete, like, facts of architecture.

C I'm now dealing kind of more with the squishy and ever changing desires that people have for their own careers and pairing those with the needs of our projects and our teams. So oftentimes, like, these types of problems don't have easy answers. I mean, architecture doesn't have easy answers in in in designing a building either. But I feel like, especially with the people side of things, there's not enough clarity when sometimes, but with with answers or or or staffing assignments. And so it takes a little, I'd say optimism or determination and and even even sometimes luck to solve those. And I think you could say that I kinda like a challenge. So that's, that's another reason why I like doing what I do.

A You you do a lot, I think, in your role. You cover a lot around you were recently promoted to principal at ZGF. I was wondering, it sounds like you created this role for yourself. Did you in fact create the role for yourself? If not, that's okay. But how do you see your own career development progressing in this role being a principal at such a young age too?

C Yeah. Good question, Evelyn. This role did exist, prior to me stepping into it, though I think that I've I've definitely made it my own over the past 3 years. I I mean, each each person comes to their work based off of their own experience and their own skill set and their own desires for their careers. And so I've definitely kind of changed things to make it easier for me to interact with staff or to manage this this big design problem. So it definitely looks like a different role than it did when I walked into it 3 years ago, but it did exist. I work with a group of people who do similar things in each of our offices, and each of those roles look different depending on the individual in that role and the needs of the office too. I'm fully and full time in this role.

C Right? So I've I've taken a step off the path of traditional practice of architecture. But some of my colleagues in other offices who have a smaller group of people to manage their groups and also practice either as a project manager or as a project architect, So it looks slightly differently. In terms of the promotion to principal, on a personal level, like, I I feel like, it it affirms kind of the the things that I've been pushing for, like or or pushing towards them at ZGF have are are being received, I guess. But I I feel like I've always been able to do that. ZGF is is a place that really that really celebrates leadership at all levels, not just the principal level. It's it, and and it it really kind of allows people to kind of take take their own paths in a in a take charge of their own paths in a really nice way. Acknowledgment that leadership happens at all levels really helps people kind of take ownership of of their the path that the firm is taking it to. So, you know, being titled or principal is is wonderful, but I feel like I've already had that kind of, like, that ability to kind of shape the direct direction of the firm in a really positive way prior to being promoted.

C I I think, you know, this is it's wonderful to be a principal, but it's also wonderful to to work at a firm that acknowledges that in any level of of your career and has the receptivity to to or the ability to kind of be receptive to people's ideas about how how how to make things better. And there's almost an expectation that if if if someone has an idea that they need to share it, and there's always kind of a a yes and kinda culture or ask for forgiveness and not permission kind of culture that happens, as well. So for me, I guess, looking forward, I'm just excited to continue the work and continue kind of pushing on things. I feel like the the I mean, anyone in staff development probably could say, like, the work is never done. But there's things that I I'm really excited about that we're right right in the middle of a, you know, strategic initiatives about changing our kind of university outreach, especially when it comes to kind of the overall kind of, like, justice, equity, and inclusion, and diversity kind of, efforts that we're kind of working on. That's always been part of our kind of ethos as a firm, but we've really kinda dove, dove in into a couple different things, especially on the recruiting front recently that we're really excited about. So seeing those through is is something that I'm really passionate about.

B Well, I think that the promotion really models exactly the purpose of what the talent development work is doing. Like, in your own career, I've I've seen you progress, and it just seems to me like they've empowered you. Like, when you were working as a project architect, they empowered you. And now as you've stepped into this role, they've empowered you to take it on and make it your own and recognize you with a promotion. One of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation with you is that in working with smaller to medium sized firms, I often see that this talent development and professional development piece takes a back seat to project work. You know, busy studio leaders don't have time to really think through the mechanics of what it takes. And, like, to your point, how complicated it is to staff people in a way where they feel heard and seen and that they're getting something out of their experience in addition to giving. So I wanted to give you a moment to talk about why it's important for architecture firms to manage talent and professional development.

C Yeah. Great question, Janine. It is an investment. Right? And I think the the short answer is, like, people are our greatest resource and people are the ones that are are doing the work. And so happy I I think, like, you know, peep there's probably a quote out there that says, like, happy people are successful people or whatever. But that kind of, like, bleeds into kind of, like, happy people and people who are growing and passionate about their work, like, leads to project success and then, inevitably, client happiness. So I think, you know, focusing and really kind of honing in on on making sure that, like, we're developing our staff and allowing them to grow and and take ownership of of their work makes them happy. It makes their clients happy.

C It it results in better work, and outcomes for our projects. I think people in this role, it it it can look different for for any firm. I I even within our CGF offices. Right? We approach this differently. I think I talked about this already. But we pro we approach this role differently, kind of depending on our office size and and and who's in this role. So it it doesn't have to be a full time investment for 1 person. Person.

C It can be, you know, one individual kind of as, as needed. It's a group effort too. I I really wanna acknowledge, like, that I work with an incredible group of people across our firm to get this job done. And so it's it it relies on more than just one person, I think. And and that helps in, you know, providing different vantage viewpoints on on different problems that come up. And it it allows us to be, as a firm with multiple offices, much more nimble in being able to kind of share staff across office boundaries and really kind of give projects what they need, but also allow staff to kind of, like, connect with colleagues in other offices and and share ideas beyond just kind of a a a location, which is has been really wonderful this past year in particular because of COVID.

A Do you mind if we dive a little bit deeper into this notion? Because because, like, for everything that Janine mentioned and the fact that ZGF, you know, you're doing this full time as a small and medium sized firm owner who who doesn't have a lot of time and kinda wants to get into this but doesn't know where to start. I mean, you're covering everything from not only just like project resourcing, but onboarding, hiring. So what are what are some best practice tidbits? And you can take a little bit to think about this. Or, like, what are what are 2 or 3 things that you can say to maybe principles of, like, smaller firms, good good places to start? You know? Should we be doing a 3 60 employee review process? Like, where are some nuggets where you think that they could really make positive change honing in on those areas first?

C I think staff development starts with staff, and so hearing what they need is really important. A lot of times, like, it's it can it can feel very top down. And so understanding that, like, you know, like, what you might think as a principal of a firm is best for your people may not necessarily be the best thing that the people are are needing. And so it I think it should really start from kind of like a an employee listening session or conversations that you have with individuals to understand what they are needing in their careers in order to help them. I think listening is just it's so critical in so many facets. But especially as a leader, I think it allows you to really get input on kind of where they're kinda set growth and and chart kind of a a course forward. So that's probably step 1. I I think I I'm a fan of employee reviews, but I feel like, you know, an annual review process isn't isn't a cadence that's helpful.

C Like, it it really needs to be a culture of constant feedback. And so it while we have kind of a formal, you know, review process within our firm, there's much more of a culture of of giving feedback in a really timely manner. And so employee growth happens on a daily basis. So it doesn't have to be this big thing that, you know, that that's implemented that requires a lot of time to manage. It can be, you know, just small changes on project teams and and how we kind of coach staff and and and advocate for them in in their future growth. So I'd say those are probably the 2 things that come to mind right off

A And those are 2 great things.

B So in our planning conversations, you know, we had a lot of dialogue about communication and empathy as key values of your leadership style. And I I kinda heard it in how you answered this last question. So I wanted to ask you to share more about why this has become important to you and how you've integrated both of these values into your work.

C It's weird putting titles to things, but, like, I I'm it's so inherent to kind of what I do. But communication and empathy, like, I think sum it up fairly well. Like, in this role, I really need to understand what people need and want. And in order to do that, you have to listen. And you have to listen from a point where where you have to be open to kind of where someone's coming from. And you can learn a lot from what someone says and be and and and then then be able to respond in a way that they need. I think, you know, the empathy piece comes in where you you need to meet people where they are and and not where you you think they need to be. And and that's a big piece of kind of that listening.

C Every moment is different than the moment before, and it's shaped by moments before. And so it it that's kind of like my my yoga thinking. Right? But every conversation is different from any conversation before, and people are coming to it differently. Like, whether or not they ate something that upset their stomach and that's causing them to come to the conversation and then not be present or it really depends. It's weird putting kind of words to kind of a a leadership style that I know so inherently to myself, but I do think that communication and empathy are kind of like the the the bedrock kind of words that I would use for for my in my leadership style. In in any role that you're dealing with people, it's really important to understand what people, like, need and want, and and listening is a huge part of this. I think that, like, in order to understand where someone's coming from, you have to listen first. You can't come with preconceived notions of where they're showing up from.

C And the empathy piece comes in to really kind of, like, you know, like, you have to meet them where they're at and and where they're where they come from is is very different depending on the day, the time, what conversations they had before. It's helpful to kind of listen, ask questions, get really curious. I think curiosity is is really important, and it helps to have kind of a starting point for whatever whatever conversation that you're you're needing to have. For me in the in the staffing role, understanding what someone wants to do with their career is is is the big piece. Right? And and that way, I can then open kinda help open doors and place them on projects that then kind of allows them to grow, into that space. But you can't know where someone wants to go or grow to unless you ask the question and and really kinda dive deep and and really understand kind of where that that drive comes from too and and and then be able to kind of respond accordingly. On the other side, the more kind of like a tangible side, like, if a PM, comes up to me and says they need help on their project with an additional staff person, getting clear from them on on what's needed so I can match the right person to the role is also very critical in the staffing piece of my role in particular. But in any in any situation, whether it's you're trying to get something from someone, like and, you know, whether I'm trying to maneuver, like, a a person onto a project, you have to listen first so you can kinda speak speak that person's language and speak to what they're really wanting.

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A With everything that happened in the world, I think your two values becomes a greater asset. Right? Empathy and communication. Can you talk about how to help others create that space? Because I feel like there's leaders out there that just do their leadership style, make it really hard for people to communicate to them. So if they are, like, trying to actively change, you know, is there anything that they can do to help shape this space, maybe even in sharing their own experiences that then allows people to kind of open up and and make that communication be more of a two way street? So then they can actually in turn be more empathetic. But I feel like if your employees aren't willing to communicate, then it's really hard to kind of take take things to the next level and actually be supportive of what they need.

C Yeah. I think you talked I mean, you you kinda hit on one where it's like you you have to kind of be open to vulnerability in in conversations. And and part of being open to vulnerability is is sharing about your own personal experience. I think there's a fine line between, like, oversharing your personal experience in any conversation and taking over that conversation to then not or or taking up too much space in that conversation so that that person the other person doesn't, have have the the feeling of of of having that space. And and I think that that's where I see some leaders kind of like, you know, like in in in taking up too much space, there's there's not enough for someone else to kind of, like, fill in where they they they feel feel like they need to.

A My follow on to that is I think communication has become more important as we're using tools like Teams and Slack and Google to kinda communicate with Teams asynchronously. Is there other changes that this pandemic has brought on to your role in terms of how you're approaching professional development? I hear a lot of people, for instance, say people can't learn if they're not all in person. So how is UGF approaching this as as as we eventually emerge in spite of the delta variant?

C Right now, in this virtual world, CGF is still working mostly from home. We have a couple soft openings in our offices, in in the jurisdictions where we're allowed to open. Right now, like, everything has to be scheduled. So any interaction that happens is a scheduled interaction, which puts more pressure on it, but it also means that there's less time for the the people who are typically sitting in the mentor roles to have to give to the the people who may may need it in in terms of kind of, like, if if they're always in meetings, then then it's the mentorship or the the the, communication with an individual is also kind of a scheduled call instead of that kind of informality that happens when you're just in an office setting. I think that we've tried to mitigate that through different means, but I think that it in any in any digital realm, there's still kind of that that need, and it really places the onus both on the individual being mentored to to kind of reach out and and and engage in a process almost more so than if it was in person. And also the mentor to be really mindful about kind of, like, checking in and making sure that there's there's time for that informality or that there's scheduled time, on the calendars to be able to kind of to to talk with people.

B I feel like a big part of this and why it's so deeply inherent to who you are is because you found this in your own experience trying to navigate your career. So I wanna come back to this really great quote that you shared with me when we were preparing, and it's and you said, how I found my voice and learned the art of holding space for others. So I wanna give you a chance to talk about this because this made me pause and think that your personal journey has a lot of influence on what makes you so passionate in helping others.

C So I was first introduced to professional development on my time with the AIS board. I think that that really kind of helped me understand that, like, I can learn and grow in activities that are not just, like, the pure act of, like, designing a building or working in the firm. And and I think that a lot of professional development can happen outside of the workplace. So I think when I said that quote, I was probably talking about, like, yoga teacher training. And, like, there's so many different, like, ways people can kind of, like, fill in the gaps of of their growth beyond just kind of the the the the traditional ones that you might get within a certain profession. For me, yoga teacher training, was one it came out of an interest of mine in practicing yoga and just wanting to kinda deepen my own personal practice. But, also, I knew that I struggled, and I still struggle with this, in in talking and getting words out of my mouth in a very clear and direct way. And so the act of teaching for me was, like, this this practice of, you know, getting it up in front of a room.

C Yes. It was more of a kind of, like, I knew what I was gonna say and and practiced those words, but it was a way for me to kind of, almost, like, confront those inner kind of the inner dialogue of, like, oh, I said that wrong or, like, oh, I'm not sure if that sounded right. Because when, you know, after every class, I would kinda go, like, oh, that didn't feel right. Or, like, oh, I said like, 10000 times. Like, and and just that process of kind of, like, noticing, and it was it be teaching became my practice for a while, which is, like, just really special. But that then allowed me to feel much more confident in kind of talking and getting words out of my mouth and not feeling like it it allowed me to quiet that inner voice a little bit more. So that's part of kind of finding my voice. And then holding space for people is really important in yoga class.

C Yoga class is not just a physical practice. It may be if you're going to a gym and don't have a teacher that's trained that way. But for me, yoga is very much a spiritual practice. And it and and as a teacher, holding space for people to kind of go through their own journey on their mat is very important. And so I think that that has taught me to kinda hold space for people in other other realms besides just just the the the practice of yoga. I see, you know, other colleagues of mine doing really interesting things as professional development as well. Like, I have a an employee who took on a a poetry fellowship mainly so he could kind of really develop of of talking about design, but talking about design and using words in a really beautiful way. And it's really helped him in in conversations with clients and and really describing the things that are in his head and getting them out, of his mouth as well.

C Another person that I know in our firm, has done, you know, improv classes, which has really helped her kinda think on her feet, especially when it comes to kind of the interviews, that we have for going after projects. So a lot of things, it doesn't have to be just a yoga, yoga teacher training or whatever, but whatever whatever brings people, like, joy, I always kinda say, like, go go dive into that because it then affects their careers in a a really positive way. There's always something you can be learning, and it doesn't have to be just, like, just something that's a direct one to one kind of application to what you're working on it. So for me, you know, professional development is much bigger than just it's it's like personal and professional development all in this in the kind of in the same in the same go.

B Honestly, like, after our experience with AIS, when I went and worked for firms, I was always really confused by the people that just sat at their desk and didn't want to pursue extracurricular things, like, through AIA or AIS. I I got so much out of it to your point that it's always been a necessity paired with whatever career pursuits I'm doing. I just couldn't imagine not having it in my life. I'm really glad you brought up yoga. I know that's been a huge inspiration in your life. And I also wanted to mention, you have pursued sewing in the past year, and you have an incredible Instagram page where you share your beautiful work that you're doing on the side that I'm I know is related to your architecture, but probably also an independent exercise from architecture on purpose. Do you wanna share anything about that work?

C Sure. Yeah. So I've I grew up sewing. I think, you know, during the pandemic, especially when kind of the world shut down, like, people were kinda grabbing on to different hobbies or things to keep themselves busy. For me, I was looking for ways to kind of give back. I think everyone kind of I I don't know about you guys. But for me, like, I went through a period where I was just kinda feeling down a little bit, and and the way I feel better is knowing that I'm making a difference in helping people. So I got on my sewing machine.

C I I sewed a bunch of masks like everyone else who had sewing machines at the time, and that just continued to be my kind of passion and my obsession over the course of the last year and a half in terms of, like, a a good creative outlet. Like, this role, like, it it still is this creative problem solving that I get

A to do on a daily basis,

C but it's less of the physical kind of, like it's less visual creative than it is, like, mental creative. And so sewing for me is this this way for me to be able to kind of, like like, see the the fruits of my labor happen very quickly, and and be able to kind of go, like, oh, I I made something. And and this this idea turned into something, and that's what I, you know, I used to love about architectures walking into a building that I I helped work on and be like, wow. This came from our heads. Like, this is so cool. And so sewing for me in terms of sewing garments and and my own clothes has been that way for me. It's, like, just such a a dream. The Instagram thing was a way for me to connect with people outside of kind of my my normal path.

C And in in a year where I felt very isolated and disconnected from people, it was a way for me to connect with people who had shared interests. And and it's been such a great opportunity for me to get to know individuals outside of architecture who are really passionate about creating their own wardrobes, whether it be for sustainability reasons or for just a creative passion like like I am I'm pursuing it as well. So that's been really fun and exciting as well.

A I don't mean to intentionally put words into Jeanine's mouth, but she obviously is a very strong supporter of mentorship. You know, how how does that kinda manifest itself at ZGF, or what nuggets can you give to others about mentoring and letting people grow both within their firm, but also giving them the space and the time even when we have a ton of project work to grow outside of of the firm itself too.

C Yeah. So I'd I'd say, like, mentorship goes hand in hand with, like, coaching and advocacy. Right? Like, an individual needs kind of, like, all 3 of those to really succeed. And and and it's up to the individual to kind of, like, define what they're really looking for, whether it's, like, someone who can kind of, like, help them kinda grow in their career, and an advocate can definitely kind of help them get there. I think, you know, coaching conversations are really critical and that's where, you know, when we talk about feedback. And coaching is definitely something that, like, that we talk about a lot in our firm in terms of, like, making sure that people kind of are are are continuing to grow. CGS culture is very individualistic, I would say, as a as a company. And and at our firm, it's kind of like what you you get what you put into it and it can't just be curated or or put into a kind of a policy or a program.

C We do have the formal kind of like mentorship programs that most other firms do, but it it really relies on the firm to make sure that it's not just kind of a check the boxes type of exercise. So for individuals who are looking for mentorship, it's it's really up to them to kind of, like, put in the time and and and and that's what they'll get out of it. I'd say, you know, each each of those things, the the coaching, the advocacy, the mentorship, all of those kind of require, I'd say, a handful of things to make them successful. It's trust. It's consistency. It's it's kind of that mutually beneficial relationship between the 2 parties that are involved and and also the engagement piece, which I've I just talked about. And trust is really important because of, you know, mentorship requires that kind of level of vulnerability. In order to be mentored or doing the mentoring, you have to kinda drop your guard a little and and get to know someone, and and and that that's where kind of space comes in.

C In order to kind of allow for that that vulnerability to happen, you need to provide the space, the safe space for people to talk about kind of their weaknesses and and then that's where the growth really can happen is is that acknowledgment of, okay, here's where I'm at and this is, like, this is all on the table. I'd say consistency is huge because oftentimes, like, that if if mentorship's relegated to more of that kind of check the box exercise, it can be really kind of more of a transitory kind of exercise. And so with consistency and more time, you really get kind of this opportunity to kind of get to know someone, and and the the potency of of that kind of mentorship relationship can really be much more kind of fruitful with time. Right? Like, I'd say, like, having a mentor for just, like, like, a month or 2 is not not a mentor relationship. It's much more of kinda, like, here's what I need and you're gonna give it to me versus, like, developing and really kind of investing in someone. And that goes into kind of like the mutually beneficial relationships. Right? Mentorship relationships should feel like a mentor coming into it should feel like they're getting something out of it as much as the mentee is. I I love talking with some of, like, our our firm leaders about their mentor mentee relationships, and oftentimes, they say they learn more from their mentees than they do from their their formal mentors that they've had in their careers.

C And I just I love that because it it really kinda speaks to, like, you know, both people bringing something to that that that relationship or that table. So I'd say to people who are being mentored, like, ask yourself what you're bringing to the table and and ask your mentor what they need. Ask them kind of get curious. It goes back to that listening. Right? So it's not just, like, it's not just a one way kind of street. It's it's it's listening to what the other person wants and and mentors as well. Right? That that obviously goes without saying. But the mentee the mentee piece, I think, is something that, like, that people don't often think about.

C I think the engagement piece, like, you just have to do more than than just show up. It has to be an active relationship, and you have to put in the time.

B So from your experience in talent development and working with staff and firm leaders, what do you want people to know about talent development and its role in shaping the profession?

C I think, people are our greatest resources, and and when you develop and and really spend time investing in people and and getting them to be very passionate about kind of what they're doing, it pays dividends to the projects and and the work that is produced. No matter what field, I would say talent development spans beyond just architecture, but really investing in people and giving them the space to kind of explore and grow is really critical to the the growth of the firm itself. So that's probably what I would want someone to know. And the fact that we're always hiring and looking for good people at ZGF.

B So this episode gets me so excited because it dips into many of the topics I get fired up about, and I'm gonna do my best to focus to 4 main points that I wanna cover in our recap. To start off, I wanna talk about the give and take of what it means to be a leader. Relationships are a transaction of giving and receiving. So if you show up to a relationship, be it a professional or personal relationship with a mindset of only receiving, you're neglecting the entire other side of the conversation. Inversely, if you show up to a relationship only giving, those people tend to feel burnt out and at times resentful. So a healthy relationship is really built on a balance of both give and take. And if you're frustrated because someone's not approaching something in the same way that you are, it's likely because you're not taking into account their point of view. And what you need to think about is what are their wants, what motivates them, what are their needs, and how are they thinking, especially what life experiences inform how they approach problem solving.

A I think that's really important. And, you know, at least for all the firm leaders out there, there's an ability to create that mentality in those relationships. But as a young architect or an emerging professional or someone who is, in many instances, trying to manage up, do you have any tips on kind of building in that empathy and helping their manager create that that empathy?

B Yeah. I mean, I think it starts with being aware. I mean, I know even in our relationship, we have had to figure out where we where the barriers are so we can get past them. And, usually, that's like, okay. We're not in alignment on this. Why? And I and, usually, instead of, like, coming at those points of obstruction with a mindset to force the other person to do what you want, I think a healthier way to approach it is to figure out what the barrier is so you can help them move past it. And that, I think, is what you and I have tried to do with each other is when we don't agree, understand why. And then that way, we can actually do something about it.

B And then I feel like we are able to move forward together.

A I think there's another and this is something that I've been exploring more recently with the the necessity with the move to hybrid practice and how we how we emerge out of the pandemic to really focus on rebuilding team norms. Right? So I so I think that might also be a good place for somebody who is being managed to start. Right? Saying, you know, a lot of firms are only talking about how many days of the week they're going to be out of the office. And for me, if that's the only thing you're talking about, you're missing out on 95% of the conversation. But I I think this is an opportunity for the younger people in the firm to talk about, okay, what does that really mean for team norms, and how can I be a part of building that so I, you know, so I don't necessarily just have to go along with leadership? But I've felt like I've been an inclusive part of this process, and they're really considering everyone's point of view when looking at how we're going to be working going forward.

B And this ties into a fundamental shift that we're seeing, which is a move away from this more assertive and hierarchical style of leadership and towards one of more compassion and empathy. And compassion and empathy takes time, and so that's why people don't wanna do it. They don't wanna lead like that because it's time consuming, and it takes courage and vulnerability to lead like that. It's much easier to just force someone to move forward with the way that you want them to go than it is to slow down and take a hands on approach of sorting things out. And there's a and I wanna be clear. There's a time and place for both styles of leadership, but I think an assertive hierarchical leadership style is not the best approach when it comes to managing internal teams of people who work for you, and neither is being completely passive or noncommunicative. Talent development requires a willingness of transparency and sharing in conversation, building your courage, being vulnerable, and to Amy's point, leading with communication and empathy.

A Right. And I've actually talked to a few leaders that, you know, wish that the people they were managing would tell them more information. And I think part of it, and you you said this kind of in your first point, is really, you know, the leaders have to give some vulnerability in order to get some role like, to create the the safe space where people feel that they can kind of report out about being vulnerable to. So we've had so many conversations. I'm not sure if I mentioned this on the podcast before and if I did, you know, it might be worth repeating, but there is a manager at Slack that always opens her meetings with, this is what it's like to be me today. And she might say, you know, I there's a lot of stuff on my plate, so I might ask you guys something that I've already asked you, in the past. So, you know, it it but it talks to it talks about why why she might be asking things that she has or of the team that she has already asked of the team just because she's balancing so much on her plate. But also, you know, she can just say it's a good time to say the nanny's out or even say, say, you know, I'm distracted because it's my daughter's 4th birthday and I'm preparing for the party.

A But that type of vulnerability and creating that space and then that allows other team members to kind of respond to that question and have that dialogue there.

B Yeah. I think that's a really good point is to just, like, frame someone's point of view and current state of mind because I think we make a lot of assumptions when we don't do that. And when we don't communicate, it leaves too much open space for people to assume the wrong impression about someone. Like, oh, maybe, my manager is ignoring me because they don't care. When that's not the case, the case might be that they feel so overloaded. They don't have time to respond. And so I think this is like, this plays into the argument about soft skills and why it's so important. And I think it just hasn't been prioritized, in our industry.

B And, historically, from a leadership standpoint, I think it hasn't been prioritized. This is a new thing, I think, in terms of the way we're evolving as leaders. But I wanna make the argument to the architects listening that it's of equal importance to the technical competencies that you're developing and being tested on. It's hard work to make time for practicing the soft skills and working on them. But if you neglect them, I've seen from real world experience and and some very bad examples of leadership, up close that no matter how much you grow in your career, even if you advance to being, like, the leader of the firm, if you don't have soft skills, you're you're not adequately prepared to execute the responsibilities of leading or running a studio full of people.

A I mean, there's a lot of studies that has tied emotional intelligence to productivity and revenue, you know, better profitability. I actually can't recall them off the top of my head, but, Janine, if we could drop the Architect Magazine article that I wrote on emotional intelligence for architects in the show notes, that would be amazing.

B And the last point that I really wanna make on this topic is about our conversations on diversity because I think, for me, the thing that I was hearing in

C this conversation as Amy was talking

B is it hits on this conversation as Amy was talking is it hits on this nexus of why you hear women and BIPOC and marginalized communities feel so unheard. You know, let's just be frank. When you have privilege, you have blind spots to the barriers that some other people might be experiencing in their life. I went through this in my own life, and I am a woman, and I'm not of color, and I I've had challenges. And it's a process of experiencing those challenges that's allowed me to see the challenges that others face, And I think that a lack of willingness to admit blind spots or be open to understanding the possibility that you have blind spots is really where the problem exists for me. I think there's a noted difference between leaders who can accept that they miss something and they can grow from it and the leaders who resist and reject the process of learning and growing later in their career. Because the truth is when you experience life's invisible barriers, you just start to see how everybody's life experiences are different.

A Rios in their presentation, that section cut is a good example of a firm that does this, is that to to help individuals understand their blind spots, they really created a more diverse they made an effort to bring people of all levels of the firm into the leadership discussions. Right. So that brings a perspective that, one, somebody else might not be thinking of. But, 2, I think it helps the more people you bring into that leadership conversation, just even if it's more partners in the conversation, provides us extra point of views. And you don't have to necessarily directly acknowledge those blind spots because then somebody else may be covering for you, if that makes sense. But I feel like firms that have gone to this kind of co CEO model, and Gensler has done it too, but I really saw it play out in the section cut keynote. Like, you you just see the dynamics of the push and pull and how much more broadly the leadership is is is coming at their decision making process because it's because it's coming from multiple different perspectives, right, rather than a singular one.

B I think you're right. And I think leaders who are willing to continue growing and and a willingness even when they're in a leadership level position to work on their own professional development is so important. I mean, because it's so easy to get busy and set aside your own professional development and growth when you're focused on running an office or making sure your projects are delivered on time or even just making sure that the details are installed correctly. If you can make space and keep yourself inspired and keep growing, it makes you into a more effective leader and manager in the long run.

A Absolutely. I think that's a good place to end. So thank you for listening, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

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