Architecture, Identity, & Culture

A This episode of practice disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operations solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hi listeners. Hi, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, listeners. So since relocating back to the southeast, I've been reconnecting with friends and learning all about the amazing things they've been up to while I was gone in California. And on today's episode, I've invited one of those friends on the show. Vershae Height is amplifying change here in the state of North Carolina as both a project architect and through her volunteer work. This week is also

A a little bit of change in, I think, sound quality for both of us. Janine is recording from her new home, so congrats on that milestone. I actually, trucked all of my podcast equipment into the office because I was supporting the Slack Salesforce integration there. So so sound might be a little bit funky this week, so bear with us, please. That being said, why don't you talk a little bit more about Roshae, Janine?

B Roshae has been actively involved in coordinating say it loud North Carolina, a joint effort hosted by Beyond the Built Environment, NC NOMA, and AIA North Carolina. She's part of an active team of volunteers who helped ensure North Carolina created the largest say it loud exhibition to date with over a 140 submissions from minority architects across the state. Both in reconnecting with Vershae and participating in this multiphase program, I've been learning about her career and her passion for this industry. She's a rising designer in the southeast, and it's important to share and amplify her story.

A For me, this conversation reminded me of the enthusiasm that emerging professionals bring into firms and our industry. Vershae continues to carry that enthusiasm in our conversation, with her today, you know, having gotten licensed and having worked under several luminaries, in the southeast. So Vershae has really followed her interest in architecture, identity, and culture through her master's program and ultimately landed on projects that align with her vision for architecture.

B Richey Hite, a licensed architect and associate at Vines Architecture received her BArch from UNC Charlotte and MArch from University of Westminster. Coupled with experience from the Freeline Group and Perkins and Will, her portfolio is characterized by cultural historic renovations, libraries, and university work. The deep rooted meanings in her work are extensions of crafted, honest stories, a result of her sensitivity to diverse social cultural landscapes and an investigative design process. She is also chair emeritus of the AIA Triangle Design Awards, co chair of AIA Triangle Women in Architecture Task Force, a studio professor at North Carolina State University, the AIA liaison and board member for the NC chapter of the National Organization of Minority Architects and serves on the Raleigh Historic Development Commission.

A Let's cut to the interview.

B Alright. Welcome, Rishae. I'm so excited to have you on the show. You are a long time friend. I actually started architecture school with you. And so

C That's right.

B Yeah. We go way back. And at one point, we actually were driving down from our hometown to school in North Carolina, together in my car from high school. So we are long time friends.

C It's true. And it's so wonderful to reconnect with you, Janine, and to meet you, Evelyn. Thank you so much for having me.

B Yeah. Absolutely. We're glad to have you here, and I feel like your story is a really important one. And I'm excited for our audience to get the chance to meet you and learn more about your story. We always start by asking our guests to say a little bit about themselves just to get warmed up. So why don't you tell tell them who you are?

C Sure. Sure. And, actually, I'm gonna try something a little bit different if you bear with me. As you can imagine, like, over the course of 2020 and all that's gone on with the pandemic, you know, I've, you know, read some books, watched some Netflix, and really kind of doing a lot of deep dives into, like, my cultural interests and things like that. And that said, I watched this Netflix documentary called In Our Mother's Gardens that was very inspiring and very touching. It's a series of African American women kind of sharing the stories of their their mothers and their maternal lineage. And so I don't know. There's there's someone who was interviewed that says, quote, because of who she is, I am who I am, the good and the bad.

C And that we have to, call the names of the people that have brought us to this point. And so I always thought if I ever get the chance, I'm gonna give this a try. So I'm gonna try it if that's okay. So I my name is Vershae. I am the daughter of Beta Michelle, who is the daughter of Pansy Blanche, who is the daughter of Jamie Elizabeth. So that's me. So on to the regular stuff. I'm a graduate, as Germaine mentioned, of UNC Charlotte.

C We were classmates together, in studio together and all that good stuff. And I also am a graduate of University of Westminster. So I got my Bachelor of Architecture, from UNC Charlotte and graduated during the recession in 2009. But, well, it's a little tough getting a job right now. So surely this thing will be over in a year. So I will go overseas and get a master's degree real quick and come back and everything will be fixed. So anyway, I, went to the University of Westminster and the reason I did that is because they have this wonderful program called a Master of Architecture, Cultural Identity, Globalization. And I actually tried to find something similar to that here, in the US, but it I was gonna have to cobble it together.

C And they already had it as a separate, a sort of program of study. So I did that. And I had full plans of kind of staying over there. But before I left, I met this fantastic guy who ended up coming over to London and proposing to me. And he is now of course, my husband will be celebrating 9 years of marriage in September and also an architect, actually.

A Oh, yeah.

C That's nice. Jason. Yep. Yep. So that's kind of what brought me back, to the US instead of kind of staying overseas. So I am a licensed architect. I've been practicing kind of, I I say in Raleigh, but really out of Raleigh. For the past almost 10 years, I've had the fortune of working on a number of projects in and outside of the state, and I also am a mom.

C I have a 3 and a half year old son who is always requesting, various types of Lego architecture for me to build him. Like, I think this weekend was a train station or something, and he promptly admires and then demolishes all of them. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

B Yeah. Your intro, thank you for sharing that with us. It actually gave me goosebumps hearing you say that because, wow. A powerful pause to think about where we come from, and I know cultural identity is something that's been important to you and your and your life and your career. So I thought a good place we could start was to actually talk about the fact that you worked on the National Museum of African American History and Culture, which is based in DC on the National Mall. Maybe we can start and kick this conversation off by asking you to share what it meant for you to work on that project.

C My gosh. Yeah. I was trying to think of, you know, a word, you know, to sky that. And the one that I landed on that I still don't think does it all of the justice is just incredible. So I was really, really fortunate, that, you know, a professor that I had at UNC Charlotte had a personal connection with Phil Freelon. And I had the opportunity to meet and sit and talk with Phil, actually, before I went off to graduate school. And as I mentioned, kind of doing a program that had a focus on cultural identity and globalization at its core. I ended up all of my projects were characterized in that way.

C So when it came time to do the thesis, and mind you, I, everyone in my class was from a different country as well. So it's just this really incredible experience that I could probably talk about for this whole time, but I'm not gonna do that. But, I I came to do my thesis and I did a deeper dive into African American identity and architecture and trying to explore, you know, what, what it would mean if if there were an ark African American architecture that existed, what would that look like? And that actually kind of went into more of, like, well, what would a process for that be like? So it wasn't just kind of stamping, you know, a visual idea on an entire identity. You know? So, anyway, I did all of that wonderful stuff. It poured my my heart and soul into it. I actually don't even know if it's okay to say this, but I did. It was such an emotional experience for me that I remember finishing kind of my the last piece of my model after not sleeping very much and all those things and just breaking down in tears. Right.

C Just because I knew that it was just something that I just was so fortunate to be able to explore and unpack. So then when I finished, it was like, well, I guess, you know, like you study something great in school, but you need to get a job. And And so I was kind of ready to, for better or worse, and maybe for worse to say, you know, I need a job. It's a recession. I'll just I will work at a firm, just kind of whatever opportunity presents itself. And so I was really fortunate that the opportunity that presented itself was not only, you know, through Phil Freelon at the Freelon Group, but also I came in at a time when they were working, hard and heavy on construction documents, and they needed hands. And so regardless of, you know, my intern sort of level experience learning my way through Revit, they were like, you're on this project. And so I just remember just kind of being, like, every single line that I drew just feeling so like, oh, my God, this is so powerful.

C This is incredible. This is amazing. This is challenging and demanding. You know, says needs design excellence and construction documents and all the things I was trying to learn so quickly in order to just, you know, I don't know, to to do my small part, right, in in helping this building be a success. So, yeah, it was it was fantastic. And I learned so, so much, through that process. And we had a fantastic team that I learned so, so much from. And fantastic to the point where I got to make mistakes.

C Right? So at one point, I accidentally copied the corona, which is the whole exterior skin of the building in the model 16 times. And, you know, someone came by my desk and was like, hey. Why is it getting bogged out? And I was like, oops. And they were like, well, we should have had it locked down anyway. It's fine. So so anyway, just, that kind of thing. Just being surrounded by some really wonderful people, and and really learning through the fire in that way. But the project's amazing.

C My husband and I, because of working on it, got to go and walk with one of the lead project architects during CA, Todd Case, in the building before it opened, you know, standing in the places that we can't get into now and seeing the the miraculous view even from the roof and checking out sustainability features and all of that. It was truly it was truly a dream, and I just feel so humbled and and lucky and fortunate and blessed in all of those things to have been a part of it.

B I wanted to ask you about the 2%, and I wanted to spend some time talking about what the 2% is. So in 20 I think it was 2019, there were approximately 300 women, black women, that were licensed as architects in the United States. And now in 2021, we're up to 532, including you, Vershae. So you are in a pretty specific club, and I wanted you to explain to our audience why it's important that we increase the number of black women in practice. I think it's pretty obvious, but I'll let you explain from your own words. And then maybe you can tell us a little bit more about the work that's happening to increase that number.

C Yeah. Sure. When I was going into architecture school, I didn't really think about the statistics of it all. I just knew I wanted to kind of be an architect. And so I remember though the first time I heard it, which was at our commencement ceremony, at UNC Charlotte. And, Janine, you may remember this too, but Betsy was got up. And she, said, said, I'm gonna get on my soapbox. And she pulled out an actual soapbox and stood on it, which I thought was really crazy, but at the same time, really amazing and tone setting.

C And that's when she mentioned the statistic of the 0.2% of all licensed architects in the US were black women. And, you know, sitting there at 17 years old, all of a sudden, you know, I'm looking kind of beside me. And, you know, knowing that I'm kind of I think it was 1 of 2, actually, in our undergraduate semester at that time at that time. And saying, man, like, that that's quite a weight to carry, but also just being determined to make it. And I I mean, I had no idea really. I mean, I was first, obviously, like, architect in my family, and, you know, I didn't have any one that I knew that had practiced or anything at that point. And so I just knew that I I was gonna do it, and I was gonna I didn't know what impact my person being licensed would have on shifting that needle, But I knew that if I could finish it and if I could achieve it, I would I would have done my part. I think that to me was something that that constantly kinda drove me even through licensure.

C And then, of course, as I met, you know, mentors and things, Dina and Terry and others, it was just kind of like, I want to kind of be a part of this group and and help to contribute and continue and extend that legacy. But I definitely think the profession, I think it needs more diversity in general. And I will say as a black woman, I feel like reflecting on it, it was a little bit lonely. Not that you always need someone who looks exactly like you or has exactly your experiences in order to succeed. Right? Like, Janine and I, great friends, you know, and I have really enjoyed having, you know, her support and cheering her on through the amazing thing that she's done in her career. Likewise for you. Thank you. But I do think that, you know, there are certainly because of the the history of the profession and the fact that it is male dominated.

C And, you know, when you go into an office where not only do people not look at like you, but, you know, in school, you have at least sort of, you know, your age and, like, you're out of high school, and you've got, like, that sort of time in life even in common. And when you go into the workforce, you know, you may come in as with one other person, and everybody else is maybe from a a different generation or a few years ahead of you or whatever. And so that brings in and of itself a whole set of just a whole different mentality, a whole set of different lived experiences. And it can be really easy to feel like I don't fit here. I can't connect with anyone. You know, the water cooler chat where they're talking about a movie that you've never heard of, that everybody else has. You know, things like that. And and just having, you know, someone else to be like, yeah, never heard of that one either.

C And okay. Good. You know? It's just, I think, something that even though it sounds minor, is profoundly impactful. It's just making sure that as, you know, diverse thinkers continue to infiltrate the profession, that it's also, like, a comfortable space for them to to not just be different and to to be an example of what difference is on a pedestal, but just to kind of, you know, to exist and to work and to kind of become, right, to become architects.

A I just wanna add in here. You know, there's been an interesting vocabulary change that I wish more people would use, like from this idea of culture fit to culture add. Right? So when you talk about creating this safe space, for me, it's about, you know, creating the space for everyone to have to have that voice, to not be afraid to say like, I don't know what you guys are talking about or not be afraid to like throw out a different reference that maybe no one gets, but then it becomes a learning opportunity. And that's kind of equally important when it comes to creating kind of equitable workplaces where everyone feels comfortable.

C Absolutely. Absolutely.

B I I wanna add this shared thought that I had over the weekend because I was thinking a lot about this leading up to this discussion. But, I mean, Vershae, I I feel like it's not that white men can't be mentors, That I I've definitely had white male mentors who've been amazing. What's happening, and I can only say this from the standpoint of being a woman in practice, but there's so few women in practice that in my life, like, sometimes I'll get paired with a woman just because she's a woman to be my mentor, but she has no understanding of who I am as a person. And I think until I found Evelyn, like, I felt really misunderstood. And it was like night and day getting matched with Evelyn because I was like, okay. I finally have someone that understands how I think about the world. And so, like, it's just really it's been a significant thing for me to help me with my confidence. And so I

A I've been really beaten up by women in my career.

B I have too because I don't fit what they want me to be sometimes. And and then they wanna bend me to be what they think I need to be in practice. But, Evelyn, you're the first mentor who's never, like, said that I can't just be this person that thinks differently. And I'm like, great. Thanks. Don't change me.

A I love it. And by the way, folks, Janine and I have never had the formal, we are mentoring, mentoring, menting each other conversation. Like, I don't think that actually happened. Like, I feel like a lot of young grads like want to name it, but rarely ever does it truly get named

B that really. I mean, it's been very, like, organic to your point, Roche. And I and so I guess it just got me thinking, like, for women of color, it's even harder because there's even fewer women out there to to be the right combination of person that's gonna understand you. And I even heard this one woman say, like, she was just looking to understand, like, how to show up in the world as a woman of color. And, like, that to me is so powerful because it's like you're you're when you're young and you're trying to grow up in your career, you're looking forward to senior leaders to see what you're trying to work towards in your own career. And I think we've talked a lot about it already, just like identity and confidence and understanding how to navigate really hard conversations. But I can imagine that being true. I don't know if it is, but I can imagine that being true as you think about increasing the number of, women of color in practice.

C Yes. I completely agree. So while I I don't think I could say I had the experience of, being in a kind of work environment where it was sort of combative more or, like, where I felt the women were maybe trying to where it was working against me. And I I would also say I think it's because I believe the numbers are always sort of tilted in in favor of the of the guys anyway with the practices that I've been at, including now. Right? So, you know, it's almost like, you know, I I have been mentored by men, and I've been mentored greatly, particularly, in the architectural detailing side of things by by white men. And I will say, Dennis Freeland and Ken Hansen are they are incredible. Ken Hansen, I know, kind of preferred to be, you know, just in the drawings at his desk. But I feel like when I worked with them, not only was it this sort it wasn't like a dictatorial, like, you do this or let me drop these red lines off at your desk and kind of walk away.

C But they really wanted me to get it, And they really, you know, wanted me to understand what was informing the decisions that they were making. And they they were just invested in teaching me to become a better architect. Architect. And they saw this sort of just, like, raw enthusiasm that I had for everything that I was doing. And they thought it was so refreshing to see someone, like, get excited. Like, I was sketching on this detail, like, all night, but look what I did, you know. And to bring that kind of energy to it, you know, regardless of kind of what I I looked like was incredible. So, yes, I agree completely.

C It's almost like, you know, there is this thing where you, you know, you you dig around and you and you say, you kind of I don't now because of social media and all that's going on, I think, and I feel like when I say social media like that, I really just try to make myself, like, sound super old, but Yeah. I see. Because it's such a shame. But, you know, it's definitely more of a thing than it was even when we were kinda coming through.

A Are are you a Jerry Asher?

C Yes. Yes. I am.

A That's what that's what Janine

B said that the other day.

C Yes.

B Sorry.

C Yes. I and I I am comfortable stating for the record that I just got into Instagram this year. I think it was, like, February. And I'm still trying to figure out, do I wanna connect it to Facebook? It just I I I just don't even know. I'm I'm just trying. I'm trying. So I think in this, you know, current age where you can literally find out everything about someone and say like, online and say, I wanna make them a mentor. I wanna make them this.

C And there are certain of these, like, hidden gems that you work with in your office too, and you have to, you know I think when you find or you realize someone is really invested in helping you understand, and it's not you you know, I certainly didn't have the same conversations with Ken and Dennis, but I have with Terry, you know, about things that were going on. But they were really, really invested in making sure that, like, when I was on a project or, you know, I I was gonna operate as, like, a project architect that I was good. You know? And I was good at doing that. And so I just soaked it in. And then, you know, when you bring your personality to it, you know, it all kind of starts just like they're commenting on drawings and you have a few jokes here and there, and then you find out, you know, somebody's a a swing dancer, and I was a ballerina. And you start to all of a sudden build these connections and relationships that are really unexpected. And you're like, but this is this old white guy. So I I just think there's there's wonderful opportunities, which is why I say, you know, the mentorship and finding is a is a process.

C And to just kinda let it evolve and happen, because you can be instrumental in it, but there's also many opportunities where those that you wouldn't even expect certainly can become your biggest advocates. And I know Terry, my mentor, she has a similar story. She was at a firm. It's all kind of white male led firm. She was there for a very long time, and they were all just so excited about her and her energy and ended up being great mentors to her pushing her forward and wanting to promote and put her out there.

B Exactly. Lift people up. Don't push them down.

C Yes. Lift them up. Lift them up. Yes. Such a powerful thing to do. Right? Something that I don't know. The egoism that's in this profession, it always blows my mind. I'm sorry.

C Am I on a soapbox now? I think I'm on my soapbox now. But, Not not here. You're among friends. But the egoism, kind of in practice really blows my mind. And, you know, I think it starts with school and us all kind of clawing and competing against each other. Right? But and when you realize the number of people that it takes to make a project happen and to make it happen well. Right? To design it well. Like, all of the things.

C Like, you need other people in order to get this thing done, especially at a level of excellence that, you know, has been required at all the firms I work at. And so when you can lift people up and, like, celebrate people throughout the process and along the way and don't have to be the one that says, well, that was my idea. I designed that and lay claim to all of these things, but really, like, lift each other up. It I just think that you get so much further. And I think when you as a when as a profession, we can begin to have that be a part of the culture, then I think it certainly will naturally become much more accommodating for, again, more diverse voices that don't feel like they're coming into something where they're like, I've gotta be prepared to fight. You know?

B That's right. So That's totally right, Rishay. I love it. I don't wanna do it about face, but I really feel like we should address this. And, you know, people have their preconceived I lived in California for 10 years. People have their preconceived notions about the southeast. And, you know, if you feel comfortable, I thought we could just dive into this a little bit because we both grew up in the south. We know what it means to live here.

B So I wanted you to share what your experience was like being raised as a black woman in the South.

C Yeah. Sure. I can talk a little bit about that. So and, you know, Janine and I are from Richmond. So I guess also kinda depending on who you talk to, Richmond is or isn't the South. Yep. So it's kinda it's really interesting. It's a sort of, like, in between space.

C And then, you know, we don't have a deep southern accents or anything. And so a lot of times, you find people you meet people, and they're trying to piss you. Well, you sound like you're from here or from there. But anyway, being from Richmond, Virginia, I mean, you know, personally, I had a wonderful childhood. And actually, I feel again very fortunate that, you know, as a black woman, I can kind of tell tell the story. And as an African American woman, you know, I have 2 grandparents that both had graduate level education. Wow. I didn't know that.

C Yeah. So I I know a lot of people, and it's wonderful that they have the story of being that, you know, the sort of 1st generation college student. But my my grandparents were actually their 1st generation college students for me. And so that mean that meant that there was a sort of legacy of teaching also within our family because they were both, kind of teachers and teaching specific things. And then I think, you know, and maybe this is also a more southern trade, but my father, is an automotive technician and actually has his degree in automotive technology, studied it, and and taught the technicians that actually go out and kind of work in the shops throughout the country, worked for GM for a really long time. He also has taught, at technical colleges and taught students. So what that meant is, a long story short, is that I spent a lot of my of my childhood in a garage, but a garage that was attached to a classroom. So being around a kind of, like, technical making, put pulling things apart, kind of messy environment.

C And then also those ideas directly, like, translated into what at the time was, like, the projector slide, markers and that teaching environment. Mhmm. So, anyway, I just had a I had a really good support system in my parents my grandparents. And so the idea that I would, you know, go off to college and do something was not foreign. It's something that I always had. But I will say as far as, you know, the kind of, like, polarized black white of the South, you definitely felt it growing up, and I felt it in school. But, you know, you don't you also don't realize the things that you just accept as truth because of your lived experience until you kind of get away from them and then you can start to interrogate them. Right? And so I, you know, I remember kind of growing up when my parents, like, we my family would, like, go to a certain restaurant and you're looking to say, are there any other, like, black families here? You know, just try to make yourself not feel so singled out.

C Right? Not all the time, but there was certainly just that sort of, initial, thinking that happens when you enter into those spaces. But it was really, interestingly enough when I went to get my master's degree. So even I was like 1 of 2 at UNC Charlotte and all of that, had some great friends experiences, all of that, when I went and got my master's degree. And I think I mentioned to you guys that, you know, everybody was from a different country. And so we had this opportunity to basically create a thesis that explored whatever in the world, wherever in the world that we wanted to. And each one of us chose to tackle our home country in an issue that was deeply, deeply personal to us. And so anyway, like I mentioned, I did a thesis on, you know, a process of making African American architecture. So I was bringing forth these things to my professor, I remember, who was not black.

C And so just kind of like talking with him about, you know, because being black and and this and that, you know, I'm trying to unpack this. And he was just like, actually, I think you need more research. And I was like, what? Excuse me? I didn't tell you. You know? Like, I'm here. I'm this. This is what I'm telling you. You should just, like, accept that. But what ended up happening was that he was just like, there's a lot of assumptions, I think, that are underlying here that you're making about your own identity.

C Wow. And what I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what I'm saying is, can you explain those to me so that I can understand? And then I realized I had never really taken time to unpack and understand that space. And so I actually, you know, had to I did a lot of unpacking and unearthing, literally being very removed overseas and having to define and explain African American identity from my perspective to, you know, a group of people that have it. So it it was empowering because it gave me actually a chance to, again, unpack some of those lived experiences in the South of being so kind of being a little singled out and all of that. It gave me an opportunity to reengage, with my grandfather through grandparents love to tell stories, but you can, like, ask for the ones that you want. So I started asking for the ones that I wanted. And that year I found out, you know, my grandfather, when he was pursuing his master's degree, he wasn't allowed to pursue it at university universities in the south because he was a a person of color. So we had to go to Pennsylvania State University to get that master's degree, and it meant that he was separated from my grandmother with the 2 young kids, one of them being my dad for a while.

C And just thinking about, you know, and then hearing the stories of the visits, right, to come visit and even to visit family deeper in the south and the certain hotels you could stay in and the certain restaurants that you could go to that were safe. And just realizing the the the issue that, you know, people had with the black body in space. Right? And so as I just was doing, again, all of this, like, deep, deep unpacking, it just made me, excited, and it made me realize, you know, I had to redefine I had the power to kind of redefine what my blackness was and how I wanted to characterize that. I ended up calling the thesis project confrontations in gray because you've probably heard we're not a monolithic monolith. But I also realized this sort of polarized environment that I'd grown up navigating Mhmm. Was actually kind of false. Right? It's not great. You know? I mean, it's not that it those things weren't real.

C We were really actually the only black family in that restaurant. Right?

B Right.

C But the system that kind of, you know, dictates how people move through space, who goes places versus who doesn't, who hangs out over here versus who hangs out over there, was all built on something that somebody made up. It didn't have to be the truth that I accepted and that I could find voice and interrogate that and interrogate that and talk. And, you know, I dedicated my my work to my grandfather actually through this, but also knowing with my young son and still being in the south, being further south, right, in North Carolina, but in a way that I will kind of, you know, nurture and teach him about, you know, how he can define his own identity, his own personhood, and how he has the ability to presence himself in these spaces and and what that means and that there's power there.

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B ZHA designer, Marco Margherta says that the benefit of using Twinmotion for the designers are the simplicity of the interface, the playfulness with which you can articulate your scenes, and not having to worry about all the technical aspects that real time usually brings, like light maps, PBR workflows, and other technical details.

A Marco also loves Twinmotion Cloud, which lets any member of the team access a project from their web browser without a single download or installation. The project manager can access the model, review it, and immediately give you feedback anytime from anywhere, says Marco.

B To download your exclusive free trial, head to twinmotion.link/disrupted. That's twinmotion.link/disrupted. One of the reasons that I really wanted to have this conversation was after sitting in on your session with Victor Vines from Vines Architecture, he and you were working side by side. It was really clear you guys have a really great collaborative relationship as you touched on in your mentorship relationship. So I wanted to make sure that we pause and talk about some of the culturally rich and significant projects you've done there, which include, the Motown Museum, which is a renovation in addition. Can you tell us a little bit more about your projects and and why they're important? Because I heard some really compelling stuff in that presentation about your point of view about lifting up community and engaging them.

C Yeah. Absolutely. So Perkins and Will. I actually did, worked on the Motown Museum when I was with Perkins and Will. That was before my time with Vines. And I'll talk about what I learned through that, and then I can talk a little bit about what I would do with Vines. But that project was so much fun, To be kind of charged with, doing a project that spoke to the kind of sound, the aesthetic, the identity of something like Motown was just incredible. And of course, my parents were super excited.

C But it it really did kind of teach me on the day to day to really have fun with the project. And I think when we talk about the development of architectural design, I don't know if I've any heard people use the word fun. You know? And and that probably speaks to what I'm talking about, how we collaborate, you know, how the the joy in in working and getting everybody around the table. There's so much opportunity for fun while we're creating these, like, wonderful, creative expressions in the built environment. So I'll just give this quick example because I think if you kind of go online and you look at Botan Museum, there's wonderful video about like, this shows the rendering and, the idea that the museum is supposed to look like albums on a shelf and things like that. So and that was also very fun to work on and build models for. And, you know, when you're ordering samples and you're like, no, I need, you know, bright yellow and neon green for the same project. You know, it's just very, very cool.

C But, I will say so for that project, we used to start, some of the the meetings with each person kinda taking a a turn to kinda share a Motown memory and their, like, favorite Motown song. And so I decided, that I was gonna, you know, talk about kinda Frosty the Snowman, with, for the Jackson 5. And so, anyway, I just described how, you know, I heard Frosty the Snowman, like the regular one Frosty the Snowman, growing up. And, you know, I just did. It was okay. And I by the way, I love Christmas. I'm a huge Christmas person. So Christmas music, I start listening to it in September.

C It's crazy. You know, my husband hates it, but it's okay. And so anyway, I talked about that. And then, like, I remember because my dad played the Motown Christmas all the time growing up. And so I remember when I first heard Michael Jackson come on and say, oh, Frosty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

C And I was like, this guy gets the like, he feels.

A Showing up.

C Like, the pain of, like, losing Frosty the Snowman, you know? And so anyway. But the the idea that I got to kind of, like, share that, and that's the the that sets the tone and the climate for kind of how we started our design meetings. It was so much fun. So I still try to look for those moments, like, in projects that I do now. And I would say with Vines Architecture, we do not start every project meeting by singing even though it would be nice. Right? Maybe we'll try it for the next job. But, with Vines, I really have gotten an opportunity to become a project leader for some of our cultural work. And so I I love that right now what I'm working on is 3 projects that represent the legacies of 3 women in the community and the environment.

C And so I've got, a building, Hammock Beach, State Park, that is honoring the legacy of Gertrude Hurst, who was, born a slave, I believe. And, you know, through her marriage to John Lewis Hurst and their relationship with William Sharp, who is a white neurosurgeon out of New York. And they met on this property, at Hammock's Beach. And it has this long wonderful story about this relationship between a white man and a black man and his family, and had their bonding, and, like, how, they ended up being caretakers of the land and just really broke a lot of, like, social norms of the time, kind of in the 19 forties. Right? Splitting up through the fifties, and then how that land was deeded to the the Black Teachers Association here in North Carolina and all of that. So it's just a wonderful, wonderful story to be able to tell through this project. And then at the Emily Kaye Center, for anybody who's a Duke Duke fan, you know, coach Kaye. And, you know, another part of his story is the center that he started and and named in honor of his mother that supports, you know, students in the Durham area, students of color that would be kind of first generation college students kind of into and through college.

C So working on, an addition and renovation expansion for for that. And then, of course, the Henrietta Lacks building for Johns Hopkins University, which will be starting, here in the next month or so, which her story, of course, you can there's a movie about it, so I won't go into that. But just really, really incredible as a as a woman in practice and as a woman of color in practice to be able to not only, talk about the significance of these women, but to really support that, through the work that Victor is, you know, kinda allowing me to lead.

B Mhmm. Yeah. That makes sense. And I was really I mean, what was interesting is, like, I've been a part of a lot of firms that focus on civic design, and and civic design comes with this community engagement process. And so I've talked about community outreach extensively through, you know, the marketing side of all of these firms. But when I heard you talk about it and Victor talk about it, it is a different community engagement process because you're specifically focused on a different community altogether. You really have, a specific community that you're trying to lift up through your architecture, and that's what I liked about your story and what you guys had to share. Because I feel like you aren't coming into the community as outsiders.

B You the community are your people. They're they're a part of, like, the environment that you're trying to lift up in the world. And so it's just it's a really, beautiful story about why that's important and why, you know, I don't know, outside voices that come in and try to do this kind of work might not be the best suited architects to do it. You know? It's it's the people that really understand what the lived experiences, that can come in and understand how to have those conversations in a way that the community will receive it best.

C Yeah. Oh, and I would say too, you know, to that effect, you know, it's also it certainly helps, right, to say, you know, I'm an African American. We're doing this for an African American community. But, you know, at the same time, it's not a monolithic community. And I think, you know, our practice is very diverse. And so, you know, having kind of allies that know when to ask the right questions, and really are genuine and wanting to understand and also uplift, even though it's not something that's a direct reflection of their personhood, is a really powerful thing as well. So I think that's why we're able to be and Vines, of course, has been successful at this before me, but that's why we're able to kind of be successful as a practice because, you know, we we've always taken the perspective that community engagement and involvement is not a one size fit all. There's so many different, facets to community, and so you just have to be committed to understanding.

C You have to take the time to do your research, to understand, to ask questions, to get it wrong, to admit when you've gotten it wrong. You know, kind of going back to humility and things like that in architecture. But, yeah, it really does kind of, you know, help with all that. And I would also say one thing I've learned through all this because even, you know, projects like the Emily Kay Center and projects like, the Hearst Hall that we're doing out at the beach. You know, sometimes the goal is just to to have something that works. Right? So, for the Gertrude e Hurst Hall, you know, it's just they need to use it as an event space. It'll be an asset to the park. They wanna have, you know, teach kids about different ecologies in the park and things like that through the building.

C And that's all great. And so, you know, we did some digging, and we were unearthing the greater narrative historically about this. And so we kinda took on the charge of how do we make all of these themes kinda work together? This very important ecological theme work together with this very important historic theme. But at the same time, not every building is a museum. Right? So how do we infuse the narrative and infuse the history in obvious ways, in less obvious ways, and, you know, still have it be a successful functioning living project to the community. And in those ways, I think it's profoundly, you know, even more fun. Right? Museums are great. They're so fun.

C Don't get me wrong. That's how I started. But, you know, having these projects again that, you know, this is the center. And when you think what has what just has to be is, you know, a room with 4 walls, and that's all you need is that flexibility to function. When you start to layer in thoughtfully some of these other moments and unearth some of these things, you know, people leave with something greater than they would have expected. I I know we certainly do, and that ends up being a lot of the inspiration for just kind of putting that extra, you know, umph into, you know, the design and our approach to it.

B Mhmm. Yeah. And I don't know that I totally nailed it on my commentary on that, but I definitely I don't know. I'm struggling to find the right words, but I think that I just walked away so inspired by, that that session watching you and Victor side by side. It just it was really clear to me, like, how you guys have this really cool relationship, which is nice to see, and it shows up in your work, which is even better. Let's circle back to this other question that I haven't asked yet. So the I think the thing that's been interesting for me to watch coming back to Raleigh and really reconnecting with you at this later point in our careers is watching you lead all this change. Like, I can tell through all of your experiences that we've talked about so far, you are taking everything you've learned and you're applying it into your leadership.

B As at the firm level, you're doing it. And as a project architect and designer, you're doing it, but you're also doing it in your volunteer work. So I think we should take a moment to talk about the work you just recently did on say it loud, what that is, why that's important. And, also, you have a side business that you're running that that echoes the same theme in your life. So, tell us about the leadership that you're sharing with the world.

C Yeah. Sure. You know, say it loud has been amazing. So I know we have talked about, how we elevate each other. Right? And so I I really enjoy that. Just really I feel like I've had this wonderful group of people and mentors that have invested in me. And so I want to just like shout from the rooftops who they are. If they're willing, they can become resources to other people because I would love to see people have the same sort of support and encouragement that I've had.

C And I try to do that for others as well. So, Stay It Loud was certainly that for me. I did submit, as part of, Pascal Sablan's call, for Say It Loud Now, which was, you know, that kind of mid 2020 call to say let's get out here as designers and make our voices known. And so that was a good experience, and and it was interesting too because, you know, I'm like, oh, I'll just put this out there, you know, and it'll just live on the Internet somewhere. No big deal. And what I found is that people reaching out saying, oh, we'd love to talk to you, or we'd love to get to know you, or can you help provide your voice and your feedback on this or on that? And so it kind of starts to open up this community, even beyond those that I was already in touch with. And, you know, given the sort of work from home, like, digital space that we're all in, I'm like, I can't be the only one that kind of needs this. And when I looked at her great designers library, that she's tracking through the beyond the builds website to see in North Carolina that it was only Phil, Zena, and now me, I was like, well, this is just all wrong.

B Yeah, we're missing a lot of people here.

C I'm missing that sound of wonderful designers, right? So I think there was a sort of, you know, perfect kind of not necessarily a storm and a negative connotation, but the sort of perfect coincidence because that happened. And then I really started to get connected with some of our local, NCNOMA leaders. And in doing that, I had actually been involved with the AIA almost, probably since the 1st or second year of my of practice, just trying to network and get to know people and things like that. I had recently because NC NoMa's chapter, was a little bit dormant at the professional level, and so they started picking back up. So, anyway, I started attending a couple of their board meetings, just to kinda see. I had a lot on my plate, but just to kinda see where I could help and what they needed. And what was wonderful about the leadership there, and that is, you know, Calvato Cooper, who's president, and Zakiyah Wiggins, who's vice president. It weren't just like, okay, we need a secretary.

C You wanna do that? It was like, look, we are just trying to support practitioners of color. What do you have that you're willing to give us? And I was like, well, I have a lot of experience working with AIA, so let's do something with that. And so through that, I think I was able to really help them facilitate developing an MOU, between AIA North Carolina and NC NOMA at a local level. And then the first event that we kinda collaborated on together through that was say it loud. And, again, just kind of bringing that up to the forefront. I know, Pascal had posted something on LinkedIn that was like, Harvey be Harvey Gantz in North Carolina. There's certainly more. North Carolina, here's the challenge.

C Do I say it loud? And so I contacted Zakiyah and then Joe Commaville, who is, who we work with at AA North Carolina. And I was like, I think we have been challenged, and we need to make this happen. So it's just really wonderful to go through the whole it's now been an 8 month process of just kind of making that happen. And also figuring out strategically ways that we can extend the life and the presence of that virtual website by having these programs. So we had talked to our BIPOC Fellows in North Carolina. And shameless plug, all of these are on our ncnomah.net website. So please check it out. It's a huge list.

C We've talked to BIPOC women in architecture who are doing architecture and something else and being and all of these wonderful things. We've talked to BIPOC students in the state. We're gonna do virtual building tours coming up, and then we're gonna, you know, roll the, the physical exhibit out, hopefully, in 4 to 5 cities across North Carolina beginning of 2022. So we're just really about elevating, you know. The rising tide lifts all ships. Right? And that's certainly what I've tried, you know, what I'm passionate about doing. And and I think at the end of the day, between that and I'm also, teaching at NC State now too, which is a lot of fun. And then also commissioner, for the Raleigh Historic Development Commission and different things like that.

C And and I get a question like, why do you do so much? And I think for me, it's it's all kinda goes back to response to, like, absence and being present. And so, 1, you know, being in a position where your identity or who you are is always referred to as missing when you know you're here. You know? And it's it may not be a 100 of you. Right? Or now there's 5:32. But, certainly, you know, when you're in your office kind of by yourself, may not be a 100 of you. But knowing that, hey. I am here and I have a voice and I'm, you know, here to say these things and offer what that means and offer my perspective on that to start to make a change. So someone can see me and say, I saw you, and that's when I knew that I could do it too.

C You know? So it's it's largely kind of a response to that. So doing my part, to elevate, but then also encourage, the next generation. And and I'll be honest with you. I have I have many people. I was even randomly at, Moore Square Park with my husband and my son and then my cousin. We're out hanging out on the lawn. And there was a young black girl who came up to us. She was doing a photography project at Duke.

C And she was like, I'm trying to capture black culture. And, you know, my husband had his Jordans on, and it just all went from there. And so, anyway, she took pictures of us, and then she was, like got to talking to her. And she was like, yeah. You know, I really wanna be an architect, but I don't know any and I and I don't know how. And so I was like, actually, I'm an architect. My husband's an architect too. And so I was supposed to be this moment, this very light, kinda great.

C That's awesome. But she just literally stopped in her tracks and was like, can I have your contact information? Because I just I have never met a black woman architect before. I've never seen one. You know? Can can can we connect? And it's just that moment where you're just like, wow, I still need to be out here. We still have so much work to do. I'm so thrilled that I could connect with her and stay connected with her. But at the same time, it was profoundly sad in a way too because you realize the disparity that's there. And so that's why I think things like say it loud, you know, just who's out there, make yourself known, make yourself available for leadership, for mentorship.

C You know, there there's a whole, again, generations of wonderful, talented young voices, diverse voices coming up behind us. And we just they just need to know that we're here, you know? So

A A lot of change has been instigated in painful but also in new ways. Over this last year, it's given us a chance to find new hope. So what would your hope for the future of the practice of architecture be?

C So I have so many hopes, for this profession, and I think the main thing is, you know, between that time when I was 17, kinda sitting in commencement to now is just maintaining that kind of freshness and that hope as I've moved throughout practice in my career and as sort of the realities of things have set in. What I'm inspired by is just the all of the discussions that are happening amongst, you know, future practitioners, students that are ready to come into this profession, and they're ready to shake things up. They're ready to tackle the big issues, ready to tackle climate change. They're ready to talk about equity and pay. You know, they're ready to talk about doing 0 carbon design and holding, you know, us as those who are already in practice and holding even clients accountable for that. And, you know, certainly, you learn what you do coming into the profession, but there's power in that. And so I just hope to see, as a profession that literally touches every aspect of what the physical aspects of what people do. That sort of sensitivity and responsibility to our fellow human, to our fellow person, and not the fellow person that looks like us or the fellow person that we grew up with, but just as human beings, the rights that we have.

C I look forward to seeing some of those themes or those themes come through really, really strongly to a point where, you know, I may have to, like, go back school and relearn some stuff because it it just transformed before my eyes. But along the way, certainly seeing, the needle shift kind of internally, I have listened to a number of podcasts where people are doing so many amazing things on the sort of periphery of practice. They have they feel like they have to step outside of the office in order to really do what to make a change or to really have an impact. And there are so many architecture firms that employ so many architects. And so having, you know, seeing an environment, an office environment, that's not the exception to the rule, but that's the norm where, you know, you're working through what's been set up and changing that so that, you know, you are that that change is happening, that you work to address those issues. Like, that is how you define what it means to be an architect and not like, this is what architects should be doing or not doing, so I had to go outside of that to come back. You know? Basically disrupt practice or transform it, you know? Kind of, you know, let it let it break and and put it back together. I have been watching another documentary, Amend, that's about reconstruction in the United States, And there is so much, power and vulnerability and the idea that you can, you know this thing that you've created for this many years that you can't unpack it, you can break it, you can, like, discard its foundation, which if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

C Right? And you can put it back together. So it's pretty lofty, I guess. It's not as specific, you know, more black women, more way more people of color, you know. But I think even more in that in having more people of color, more diversity, more issues like that being addressed, it's really the diverse thinkers, the diverse voices, like those outside of the box that are gonna, you know, really have the transformative impact on this. And I want to work with all of them.

B So during the interview, we talked about the 2%, which is now at 4%. 532 licensed female black architects against the backdrop of a 121,000 licensed architects in the US. I just wanna let that statistics sit for just a minute. To put this further into context, Vershae is the 11th African American woman to obtain an architecture license in the state of North Carolina. 11th.

A These stats remind us of Pascal Sablond's work, including her efforts with, obviously, Say It Loud as the founder, and the most recent Whitney Young award recipient. But But just to remind everyone, Pascal is the 315th black female architect to receive licensure in the

B US. At the opening panel discussion for Say It Loud North Carolina, Pascal was invited to interview Harvey Gantt, Marshall Purnell, Kevin Montgomery, Alicia Revato, Daryl Williams, and Anna Wu. Our listeners might recognize a few of those names, but if not, this is a heavy lineup of firsts. And by first, I'll give the example of Harvey Gantt, who grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, where he was active in the civil rights movement early on. In 1963, following a lengthy court case aimed at breaking down color barriers in the state's educational institution, Harvey became Clemson University's first black student. He graduated 3rd in his class, later going on to attend MIT. After many other firsts, he also became Charlotte's first black mayor.

A This panel was a significant moment to bring so many leaders from the southeast together to share their stories on what it means to be first. How they explored and thought about their identity as they became architects and later fellows, and how they have led each change through their projects.

B When I think about Vershae's story, I see someone who's leading in the present moment and continuing the legacy that these architects started, and she's continuing to advance conversations on culture into practice. I think about her going to London early in her journey in search of knowing more about her own identity and how to explore culture in the context of architecture. I was really

A moved by Vershae's positive outlook on the profession despite everything that she probably has gone to to get to where she is. I don't know if the moment on our podcast was, you know, how she presents herself to the public. But for me, as somebody who has consistently identified as a pessimist when it comes to where the future of is headed. Vershae had a mindset that I wish that I could embrace more about the future of the profession, what it means to practice of the profession, what the profession means to community, and and the value of of architect's role

B in all of that. So definitely, Vershae, I think, has always been an optimist and who she is and what I've known of her. I think she has looked at the industry a bit differently than you and I in terms of pursuing her career in architecture and finding a way to widen the tent rather than going outside of architecture in order to pursue what she's passionate about. She's found a way through her education and finding the right mentors and the right projects to work on where she's actually integrated what she loves with the practice of architecture.

A She also talked about this notion of breaking things and putting it back together and how the results of doing so can bring us to a beautiful new place. For me, it's reflective of her mindset and how she approaches things. I usually say, well, I've been known to say architects are 3 recessions away from being extinct. But maybe we are a broken system that needs to be broken down a few more. But that doesn't mean that what we find on the other side of this, how we emerge out of this pandemic, how we are able to position ourselves to sit at the right tables, to raise our our voice and contribute to the conversations that we've always wanted to. There's there's still that opportunity, and and the outcome of that can be truly beautiful. And it could kind of redefine what traditional practice is rather than going away from traditional practice.

B Definitely. I 100% agree. And the last thing that I really wanna leave our listeners with is to encourage you to go check out Vershae's company, Beyond Black Apparel, where she's continuing to explore parallel to her project and volunteer work, this idea of identity. And I'll leave you with a quote from Vershae. As an African American licensed architect, I am often assigned labels before I even have an opportunity to speak them. I wanted to create this line of products to challenge assumptions about my identity, my associations, and my profession. My hope is that these messages will inspire people to ask questions about architecture and the wearer's role in it while giving them the opportunity to engage in a deeper conversation and understanding of the role of diverse designers in the built environment. In other words, less labels, more truth.

A Thank you for joining, and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

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