Building a Social Audience

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is supported by Monograph, the cloud based practice operations solution built for architects by architects.

B And Twinmotion, the simple real time rendering solution to create high quality imagery, client presentations, and interactive experiences that help communicate your design ideas fast.

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing. Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hi, listeners. Hi, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Today's guest has a growing social media platform on Instagram. She's the creator behind the account To Scale and has organized an audience of architecture students and emerging professionals. Together, they're sharing ideas and lessons learned in

A their professional development in the field.

B So, Evelyn, I wanna start by asking professional development in the field. So, Evelyn, I wanna start by asking you, how did you discover To Scale and why was this interesting to you? Why did you wanna bring Sona on the

A show? So I I'm actually not an avid social media poster. I think you and I continuously talk about the both of us needing to get better at that, especially when it comes to the promotion of this podcast and practice of architecture. But I do use social media a lot for inspiration to see what other people are putting out there and as kind of a knowledge resource to find like minded people in in the profession. And I stumbled across Asana, who was just putting out really great content that I wish I had coming out as an emerging professional. And it led me to this whole network of actually young creators that are in the UK specifically that are that are I don't know. That's that are giving me hope for the future of the profession, what it means to lift each other up, lift one another up, and also what it means to share knowledge, create new ideas, pivot, experiment. This group of individuals is just giving me new hope. Sana is like a great example.

A I've learned so much from her from a productivity standpoint. So anyways, I use social media for learning and for researching to a lot more degree, which I think is not a unique not it's not a non unique way. I just don't think when people are flipping through their social media channels, they necessarily think of it that way. Others might be searching for pretty pictures. I'm searching for people putting out unique ideas on productivity, business management, learning and development, all the things that kind of we talk about at practice of architecture.

B Sana is a content creator and a part 1 architectural assistant based in London. Since graduating from the University of Greenwich, she founded 2scale, an architectural blog and platform for students and young designers. Since beginning her content creating journey, Sona has led a team to self publish an architectural magazine and curated a digital conference for students. She's also recently taught a cohort based course to help architecture students build skills during the summer.

A Great. Let's get to the interview. Sona, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and to scale and also where you're working currently?

C Sure so, hi everyone my name is Sona. I'm 23 years old and I studied architecture and I completed my in 2019 after which I set up to scale which is a blog and a platform and it was initially as a kind of side project which allowed me to develop my skills further whilst job hunting and so that process went on for about a year and basically as soon as I had made the decision to go back to university I received a job offer. So now I work at Carlos and Adams. They're a medium sized practice based just outside of London and they specialize in care homes and assisted living and basically in the care sector specifically. And so I work there as a part one architectural assistant, which is kind of like the most junior level position you can get.

B And to scale has been quite successful. So maybe tell us just a little bit about how where you're at with your growth and what you're doing with that?

C Yep. So To Scale essentially started off as a blog. It then kind of transformed into more of an online community and platform for other architecture students. So the initial goal was to essentially provide students who are in university with resources and tutorials and articles on all the like small stuff that you usually don't really learn about. So right now we are on Instagram that's kind of like our main platform as well as the blog. So Instagram we have just over 7,000 followers and a great sort of very, you know, heart likes a very great community in essence because there are people who kind of reach out and they sort of engage consistently. So that's what I really love about Instagram. And then on our blog, we kind of we've just hit over a 100000 views, which is amazing.

C And it's kind of like a great milestone, especially sort of at a time where I was kind of getting a bit eerie about all the statistics and all this kind of thing, and I was thinking, the views are dropping. I'm not really sure if I should keep going and that kind of stuff. So it's going really well, I would say.

B It definitely is. I mean, that's one of the things that Evelyn has been telling me about you is just that the growth of your social media is really impressive, especially in the AEC industry. I think you've done a great job at attracting an audience who, like, really wanna know and engage with the content that you're creating.

C Yeah. So

A as a follow-up to that, most people that I know because I've talked to a lot of people about, like, the necessity or what writing can do for you. Just don't, you know, come out of uni and decide, I want to start a blog. So can you can we dig a little bit deeper into why you wanted to do that and kind of what what drove that initially?

C Yeah. For sure. So I think I had always had this idea of starting a blog. I started like, a bunch of blogs when I was in school and in university as well, and they never really stuck because they were on all kinds of different topics. You know? It was sort of like I did one about fashion, I did one about makeup, I did one about just generally journaling my experience through university, and it didn't really work out because there wasn't kind of like that driving force behind it. So I really wanted my sort of summer after graduating from uni to be as productive as possible and getting, you know, doing something with that time because I knew a job wasn't going to come so easily. And so I think writing in essence has always kind of been a passion of mine. I really liked studying English at school and that sort of thing and so I knew, I mean, I knew I had that interest and so starting a blog especially where I could kind of create valuable resources that was helping students and kind of giving them the tools to actually create their own stuff, but without having to kind of do it out of the blue or kind of, you know, not have that sort of support system.

C Because I found that in my time at university, my tutors were absolutely amazing, and they were there to kind of support you go above and beyond. And I didn't see that with other people in my year and other students. And so I thought if I could sort of take what I've learned and put it online, then at least I can help a couple of different people as well.

B Yeah. We're curious to know how specifically your process of working on this and developing this content has helped you build your own expertise and your brand over time.

C Yeah. So before I started the blog, I kind of already had in mind the fact that I wanted to prepare in advance as much as possible. And so we launched the blog officially in September of 2019, but throughout that whole summer I was working on the brand, I was working on the social media, putting together at least 10 blog posts before we had even published anything And so I knew I kind of had a sort of backing to sort of lean lean on and that kind of thing. And so I think in terms of creating a social media brand it all came together quite quickly I would say, but I also learn a lot on the way, so I think that's that's the best part about it.

B Yeah. I I mean, we do very similar things with our work. We were basically starting out similar to you, like, just kinda exploring an interest area, and it's grown over time. I'm curious. Has your perspective changed as you've created more and more content?

C Yeah. Definitely. I mean, because initially, it was kind of just stuff that I knew or I was good at. So for example, I did a couple of articles on how do you deal with tutors, how do you deal with rejection and again leaning on experiences that I had in university. And over time I kind of saw myself developing other avenues of social media and that takes a whole lot of work as well and you kind of learn all these different skills And within that, there was sort of a niche of, you know, productivity and how do you manage your time well and that sort of thing. And that came up a lot. And I often get asked, how do I manage to post so much on social media every single day, that kind of thing. And so I started looking that as a kind of advantage and a sort of strong suit of mine.

C And so I've leaned into that a bit more as well. And I think going forward, which I'm sure we'll talk about, I've also begun to realize that maybe that's where I need to sort of start heading. And so this whole aspect of how do you sort of build healthier habits, especially for students in architecture, is something that I really want to, carry forward.

A Even though I think your primary audience is actually students, I think there's a lot that even tenured professionals can learn about what you're doing and kind of the tools that you are using. Right? I think you I heard heard of Figma, but you were the first one to kind of truly introduced me to Figma as a tool. Yeah. For for our listeners out there, I I I just think, you know, the way that you have built your brand has been so so great. And you you alluded to some of the challenges that you had along the way. Can you kind of enlighten us to to what those challenges are and and what people can look out for as they're beginning to build their own online presence. And this goes for firms too. Right? Not just individuals.

C Before I answer your question, learning about Figma actually came to me from another content creator. His name is Gabriel Chek. He runs Art Club Book. So Figma has been fantastic. It's been, like, one of the best finds along with Notion and so yeah so going back to the the question in terms of struggles I think they've mostly been personal struggles like how do I you know manage time working a full time job which I started September last year So there was quite a shift in, you know, managing my time and where do I put my effort in and how do I sort of keep things going in a sense. The same thing's happening now as I'm sort of coming to an end of that 1 year sort of placement, and so now I'm gonna be moving into university. And so I think most of the time I have had, you know, bouts of sort of burnout and, you know, periods where I felt like I just can't think of anything creatively. And so I think dealing with that is very very difficult but I've also found that it's actually very useful to document that journey and that side of things online as well as much as you would you know celebrating achievements like you know hitting sort of 10,000 followers or whatever it is.

C And actually being that kind of honest with yourself and with your audience really helps because it also relieves this pressure because you kind of think I think generally people sort of think that if they don't sort of keep churning out content and keep creating, their audience is gonna leave, they're gonna lose followers, they're gonna lose viewers, and that sort of thing, which is fair. And I think everyone sort of had that insecurity, but it's really important that you kind of kind of build in public and, you know, show your weaknesses in public as well so that you can kind of grow from that and sort of turn it around and, you know, eventually you'll get back on track. I I feel like and I think with the blog especially, it's something that I've never really sort of thought about giving up or thought about, you know, stopping. So there's also that kind of driving force and mindset behind it as well.

B I do wanna come back to this point that you made about you do produce quite a bit of content, and that's something that Evelyn and I have talked about and we've been really impressed with because I think it has set this really great model in the industry of, like, level of engagement that an audience is looking for. And, honestly, like, that is that is so hard to do when you're creating content to go at that pace. And so I'm can you tell us a little bit more about how you how you set that pace for yourself or what inspires that pace or how do you keep up with that pace? Because the burnout's real.

C Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I think falling into Instagram was a bit of a a surprise to me as well. I wasn't expecting to kind of be creating content on Instagram, you could say. It was very much focused directly at, you know, writing blog posts, promoting blog posts, doing the SEO, and that sort of thing initially. And then I found that kind of I was posting constantly, every single day, and it was mostly because at that time, I wasn't really doing much. As in, you know, I was unemployed.

C I kind of was just working on the blog, but I had stuff sort of on the back burner, so I didn't really have to do anything in the moment. And so I was kind of documenting myself, you know, learning new skills, looking up new products, learning how to kind of create content and that kind of thing. So that's how that came about and how I've stuck to it. I feel like I definitely have taken breaks when I've needed it and that has been really, really good as well. So I think the the most important thing here is to make sure that it doesn't feel like work because especially when you're building a brand and if it's kind of like and if you view it as a company, I guess, which most people do, you kind of feel like social media is a sort of tool. And so you treat it as part of the business and you treat it as part of, you know, I have to do this in order to promote this or market this and then get sales from it or clients or customers or whatever. But I see it more as a sort of a task or an action that I enjoy. Because also, like you said, it's it's really great to kind of grow on Instagram especially because some people might see it as a one way street where it's just you posting content and your audience is kind of consuming it, But people really don't sort of utilize the tools within Instagram, which is polls and the DMs and messages as well, because I interact with a lot of people, you know, not in public.

C And so, that's also a really cool part of it because you get to kind of meet new people and even other creators as well. I've collaborated with so many just by kind of sending hi, DM and that kind of thing.

A Yeah. I think that's that's a really good point that I I never even thought about was the knowledge that Instagram, like, platforms like this can actually be very much a two way street even though, you know, you have your feed and you're posting things out there. I don't think I've seen a lot of I don't know if either of you would like to prove me wrong, but I don't think I've actually seen a lot of Instagram feeds run by architecture firms that kind of engage in those tools in a meaningful way that could actually grow business.

B Yeah. I think it it's kinda hit or miss. I mean, I don't know, Sana, what you think, but the tendency, like, when I've worked for firms is to lean on the photography a lot and so trying to push the high quality images out to their regular posts. And I think stories came along, you know, within the last, what, 2 years, year and a half. So that's, like, been experimental for a lot of firms, and they've been trying to figure it out. But I I can't really think about, too many firms that are using it quite as successfully as I think, Sona, you've kind of figured it out.

C Yeah. I think maybe part of that is the fact that because they sort of represent a company at the end of the day and they're a practice and they kind of have to keep this image up, which is completely fair and I think while going on that journey the people behind those practices get lost. So for example if you look as compared to I guess maybe like Foster Architects and then you look at Norman Foster or you look at other sort of very prominent architects you can say their personal accounts are much more engaging and they have much more followers than their sort of practice accounts and that's because people want to see the people. They wanna see the real sort of day to day things, you know, even if it's something as simple as, like, sketches and the behind behind, the scenes kind of drawings and that kind of stuff. Because a pretty picture is essentially what Instagram used to be, but it's not anymore. But yeah. So I think stories is definitely a really sort of key tool and I think most people kind of utilize it or view it as something that you can automate and schedule like you would with your normal feed. But I find that that really doesn't work at all.

B So you don't schedule things?

C Not for my stories. No. For for my general feed, yes.

A What's interesting to me is that I totally agree with you that that architects tend to separate their firm identity from their individual identity. And I mean, this is not necessarily a new revelation, but, like but then we do the way we talk about business is so closely related to like, we are we always say we're a relationship business. So if we're a relationship business, then I guess, you know, my my argument is then why shouldn't we be showing more of the people that make up the firm and more of, you know, what it's like to work with us. So you just talked to us a little bit about the change in Instagram and it being all about the photos and not being all about the stories. How do you tend to stay on top of all that things? I think the latest switch, right, is that Instagram is officially positioning itself more as a a a video, service too. And, you know, how how do you adapt? Because I'm Janine and I constantly talk about doing more video on our practice of architecture feeds, but you will see that that has not occurred. Also because I think we have a little bit of impostor syndrome. But but how do you kind of continue to evolve that as the platforms evolve?

C Yeah. No. Me too. I definitely have that impostor syndrome as well. It probably took me I would say most of the past year just to be able to kind of get on camera and speak to people, but I think yeah with Instagram sort of evolving in that sense, I've also kind of been a bit eerie about how do I move forward? Do I need to start sort of pushing reels? Do I need to start making video content? And if that is the case, what video content could I possibly create? And then I kind of sit down and kind of think about my sort of content pillars. What what are the things that I do wanna be producing, and sort of giving value to people with. And I think video isn't really a part of that for me. And so I actually did a couple of polls on this, on my stories a few times asking people, you know, whether there's actually something that they would want to see through video.

C My sort of mindset is the fact that there are so many amazing sort of architectural representation channels or, you know, visualization even with software SketchUp, Revit, all those kind of tutorial channels out there already. There's already people making this amazing content and I feel like I don't really have that passion to do anything, you know, software based or make tutorials in that kind of sense. And so I think the content I'm creating to do with, you know, advice articles or productivity, that can be done through text or or sort of visuals. It doesn't really need video at the moment. I might say this and then I might completely change in about a few months time but but I feel like yeah. I feel like since that since all that content is already out there, I don't have anything unique to add to it, and so, therefore, I don't feel like it's worth me putting in the effort and learning the skills of video editing and you know filming stuff because I'm probably not going to be happy with it if that makes sense. And so, yeah, since Instagram is sort of adapting, I'm kind of looking to do just a bit of like refresh in the sense that looking at how I can, sort of freshen up the content a little bit and maybe just rethink about how or what exactly I wanna be producing, if that makes sense.

B Your comments make me kinda reflect on some of the stuff that we're going through, like, in the process of creating. Like, I feel so close to the content that sometimes it's hard to see it. And so I'm constantly asking myself, is this good? What can we be doing better? Are we heading in a logical direction that makes sense to our audience? I I'm just kinda curious about your process, like, to your point on refreshing it and making sure it's really resonating. Like, it's such a hard question because once you're really in the weeds on creating this stuff, I think you get really close to the details and it's hard to zoom back out sometimes. Mhmm. And I'm just curious, like, about the process for creating these graphics coming with the concept. It's probably very time consuming, I would imagine. How do you, you know, how do you know that you're on the right course?

C Yeah. That's a that's a really good point. I think, so 2 things with me, I kind of say yes to everything and so if someone has an idea or if I have an idea I sort of jump at it immediately and so that's actually how sort of Madcon came about that's how 2 scale studio has come about. It's just come from a random thought I've had and then I've just run just run with it. But yeah, that kind of tends to lead to a lot of me you know over committing to things or kind of putting myself in a situation where I've got too much on my plate which I hate having and so I've told myself that this year was kind of supposed to be me just you know solely focusing on the blog maybe doing a little of updating on the website and so obviously that hasn't sort of turned up but but it's fine. I think also the second thing was that in terms of coming up with content ideas for example I had so many things on a backlog and so I had sort of about 2 or 3 months worth of content already scheduled away. And I thought at the time that that was great. It means I'm prepared, it means I don't have to do anything in the moment, I can focus on other stuff, I can do other projects but then I started to realize that as these blog posts were coming out or as these Instagram posts were coming out I wasn't really relating to them and I was really kind of pushing for guest posts as well, but I keep finding that many architecture students really want to write about stuff like sustainability or they want to do sort of like history and theory sort of topics, which doesn't quite fit the tone of the blog.

C And so it was really difficult to kind of keep going with that, but again I didn't want to say no to anyone. And so now I've kind of find found myself in a situation where I'm really sort of sitting down and picking out exactly the kind of content I wanna be creating. So I've sort of deleted everything that I had on the backlog. I just started from scratch. And so I find that, you know, just taking that time to sit down and clarify and reset is also equally as important. So for the past month, we haven't been publishing any blog posts, and I'm really sort of passionate about having content that is timely, especially for architecture students. So for example, during the end of the year, you would we would sort of push out content that's more related to how do you sort of tie up your portfolio, how do you manage time during deadlines, And that kind of stuff that's actually valuable in the moment that is still, you know, evergreen, and it can be used time and time again over the years. But, yeah, just kind of asking myself what's the content that I would want to see if I was in that situation.

C So that's probably the way I'm going about it right now.

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A Yeah. So you alluded to Madcon and a few things that you have going on to scale. So do you wanna tell our audience a little bit about what what that is? And then also, you know, has other has other opportunities come along for you professionally or present itself professionally that you don't think otherwise wouldn't have if it weren't for to scale?

C Yep. So in terms of so if you look at the timeline so far with to scale, it's been almost 2 years. In our 1st year I created a digital and physical community magazine that was our first edition. I'd never done anything like that before along with about sort of 18 other people from around the world. We ended up putting together this magazine. It was supposed to be digital and then I thought let's just try and go for a physical version. And we ended up blowing up the Kickstarter campaign, and it did really, really well. And so that was a really nice sort of big project in terms of how the brand was going apart from the blog posts and other content.

C And then in about I think September last year, I sort of again had this crazy idea. Because what I do from time to time is give a shout out to all the new creators that I'm seeing on Instagram and people that I'm interacting with. And so I did this on one night and then I realized actually wouldn't it be great if we all collaborated together. And so out of that Mad Con was born and I was part of the Mad Collective at the time which is collective of about 5 different content creators again from around the world and so we were doing monthly symposiums and then I put forward this idea that why don't we actually do a virtual convention specifically for architecture students. And so we had about 30 different creators join us and help out with various events over a 3 day period. And so that went fantastically as well. But, again, it was at a point where I kind of realized that I have too much on my plate. And so again another big project and then most recently, in May, I kind of had this idea that I wanted since I was going back to university I really wanted to have some kind of time where I could build my skills or just get a sort of refresher how to you know settle back into studying architecture and I've realized that most graduates or most people in a similar situation to mine might also be looking to do the same thing.

C You know maybe it's kind of like how do you position yourself as a professional after graduating or how do you network people, how do you kind of build those skills or build your portfolio and CV and so on. And so out of that, To Scale Studio was born, which is a live cohort course. So the emphasis is on the fact that it's a live course, meaning that you can take it together with other people and other students. And so it gives you this kind of aspect of not only community, but accountability as well. So it's kind of like a proven model that's worked for loads of other people and it kind of emphasizes the fact that you actually end up completing the courses because you're doing it with other people rather than just a standard online course. So again, in total that brings it to about 3 major projects, I would say, over the course of just 2 years. So I think that's been super super fun and I think that's the part that I really enjoyed is just kind of pushing myself outside of my comfort zone and trying new things and learning new skills as well such as you know how do you put together a magazine or the printing sort of logistics behind it all and with Madcon, you know, event planning and that kind of stuff as well. What was the second part to your question?

A I guess the second part was, has anything come to light for you personally or professionally that you don't think would have happened if it weren't for to scale?

C So I like to think that over the sort of year that I had looking for a job, I gave about 10 different interviews and so by about the 7th or 8th interview I started putting to scale on my CV as well and in my portfolio and and saying that in my interviews, I was working on this side project and the position that I'm currently at, they were conveniently going through a sort of rebrand. And so they were looking to expand their social media presence onto Instagram and LinkedIn as well. And so since those were sort of my main platforms, you could say they were really keen to get me on. So they haven't explicitly told me that this is the reason they hired me but I like to think it is. It kind of gives me that sort of extra edge. You could say that I have experience with you know social media marketing and creating graphics and knowing what kind of things audiences like to see. So that's sort of like a professional thing but I would say more so personally I've been able to kind of connect with so many amazing individuals. People like Steven Drew from Architecture Social.

C He's amazing and just seeing him on that journey of creating this online community as well has been fantastic. And all these sort of different younger creators as well, which is funny to say because I always find myself in situations where I'm probably the youngest person on a zoom call or something. And so, yeah, just connecting with people, I think, is is probably one of the sort of highlights that's come through sort of building this online brand.

B Okay. I need your input on this because Evelyn and I also go back and forth on this all the time. There's so many social media platforms. I know we've talked a lot about Instagram, but how did you select what your platforms were that you use, and which ones do you think might be the new cool social media sites in the next coming years?

C So I like to say that I've tried everything except for TikTok. I'm I'm never gonna get on TikTok. Me either. But but, yeah, no. I I have tried most things. There were sort of a few phases where I tried getting on Pinterest and looking into that kind of stuff. I tried the whole Twitter thing. Those kind of stuff hasn't really worked out because I've kind of realized that that's not where my audience is at.

C I think majority of the architect students are mainly on Instagram either to sort of look at other creators or get inspired or showcase their work So that's why I've stuck with Instagram I think. And I have also delved into creating content on LinkedIn and that's more of like a personal thing rather than through the brand itself. So that's been, really cool to kind of engage with other people in the industry as well. I think, in terms of what's gonna stick around, I mean I even gave Clubhouse a try and then I got really bored with it pretty quickly. So, yeah that wasn't amazing but then luckily we actually have a discord server so they've also come out with a similar feature called stages. So I've been utilizing that and actually hosting discussions for my exclusive community through that and I found that more successful because it's not like anyone from any industry can drop in, it's you know that there's Architecture students on there and so that's kind of been really cool to experiment with as well. But I think for me definitely I'm gonna be pushing content on Instagram despite the fact that they've said they're changing their sort of outreach and that kind of thing because I feel like architecture students will also stick to this social media platform and I know that carousels or you know even like long caption type posts still work. I think my sort of maybe USP in a sense is the fact that I'm engaging on stories the most And so they know that, you know, if they have a question, they can come DM me if there's, you know, anything that I'm learning.

C So I'm learning about how to use Procreate. I'm sort of updating my portfolio, and I'm, you know, guiding them through that process as well as I'm doing it. So not only do they get to learn from me, I get learn from them as well. So it's kind of, again, that two way street, which is fantastic. So I'm probably never gonna let go of that.

A You you said you were headed back to uni, which means that you're gonna have to be managing your time differently again. So can you tell us about your plans for it to scale in the kind of the near immediate future?

C Yeah. Sure. So I think over the past year, having a 9 to 5 full time job, that's been a completely new experience for me as well and so it's been actually quite difficult but I think I've handled it pretty okay. I mean I'm a bit sort of like I need to have 2 months of worth of content scheduled otherwise I'm falling behind, but obviously that's not falling behind. So I think again having

A I would say that's definitely not falling behind.

C Yeah so again having that again change in a bit of schedule, I think maybe going back to university, you might think that I guess time is a bit more flexible because you're working at your own pace and you're working on your own project rather than sticking to someone else's time, but I feel like I really want to give all my effort into studying my masters and so I'm hoping that I can pare back the content. So I'm gonna be posting instead of weekly, it's gonna be biweekly. I've also let go of a few projects that were sort of hanging behind and, you know, I wanted to work on, but I didn't have the time and it wasn't a priority. And so I kept telling myself that I would I would but I'm letting go of that now too. Cutting myself off so I think it's just yeah again just being a bit realistic with myself about what's on my plate at the moment because I know it's probably gonna be quite tough to settle back into university life and you know studying masters especially is such a new thing, so I think it's yeah, I'm I'm hoping that I can kind of stick to this idea of keeping things simple for the time being.

B I honestly think that if you track some of your experience going through your master's program, that will be such valuable content that will be meaningful to your audience. They'll be curious to know what your experience is like. One question we have is that you have created so much great content for students that has inspired them to help them figure out their careers. But what advice, if you had to distill it down, what would you what would you advise for new grads entering the profession?

C I would say build your skills as much as possible. And by skills, I know people immediately start thinking of software skills because and that's completely fair because loads of architecture practices require you to have skills in a certain software, and that's often where I sort of lost to another sort of applicant or whatever because I didn't have those software skills, but I feel like software is something that you can easily learn over a short period of time because there is already so much content out there. You know, you don't necessarily have to take a course for it, you don't necessarily have to go to classes or anything like that. It's very much also the fact that architecture is such a self taught profession too because you're constantly learning new things along the way and so for anyone graduating now I usually just say work on your soft skills and that kind of stuff is you know how do you stay organized, how do you schedule your time well, how do you make sure you're not pulling any all nighters which I hate, things like that because I feel like that's so much more valuable because when I was in university especially I would see people you know slaving away throughout the night in studios while I was coming in fresh faced you know delivering my my projects and then going back home just to have a normal day whereas these people were kind of you know submitting their projects and then going home to kind of sleep for a week and I find that that that kind of behavior has become so normalized but it's so unhealthy and people don't realize that until they're kind of out of that space. So definitely working on skills like that I think is really valuable and I think that this sort of summer period is especially helpful in doing that because you don't necessarily have any impending deadlines or, you know, pressure on yourself to work to a certain stage or anything like that.

A You mentioned at the top of, the conversation that you've kind of taken this pivot into productivity, and you just kind of alluded to it again. What are the tools you're using now? And I just wanna, you know, for for anyone out there who has tried to figure things out, I find it very hard for one tool to kind of fit all. So I guess what is your technology stack when it comes to productivity?

C So I've tried a bunch of different things actually. I had this whole sort of revelation back in March of 2020 where I found Notion, but I'm not saying that Notion is kind of like this glove that fits everything. It's basically been a digital version of a workspace you can imagine, you know, you can write notes in there, you can manage projects. So while I was doing projects like Madcon and Scale Studio as well, it's been really great especially because you can publicly share stuff, you can collaborate. And so that was kind of my planning hub, you could say. But there's so many other great tools out there and I think they don't also have to be expensive either because I feel like many people think that for productivity, you know, you have to get this amazing, you know, $500 desk or something like that which is a bit over the top in my opinion. But in terms of the other tools I use, so I think we Figma, for example, for creating, creating posts and content. It's really great because as an alternative to I think most people use Illustrator and Photoshop.

C It's really great because you can have all your posts in kind of one area and it's sort of that Miro board esque interface where everything's kind of in front of you at all times and so you don't necessarily have to create new projects each time. You can kind of pull things from different aspects. Though combined with Notion, I also use Todoist as my main, like, task management app. It's a really simple thing. It's I don't think you have to either be too complicated about it and have these, like, hundreds of systems. I usually tell people that as long as you've got some kind of priority level, whether that's on a notepad or anything, it's completely fine as long as you know which takes priority and that way you're kind of doing the tasks that need to be done rather than the ones that you want to do. So I think those those 3 are my main sort of digital tools that I use at the moment. Again, free, free resources like Discord or Google Drive, Docs, and that kind of stuff is also really helpful.

B I think to close out the conversation, maybe you can share what is your hope for the future of the profession?

C I hope that, the younger generation of architects are able to, you know, move forward in their careers without having to sacrifice things like their time, their life, their personal life. Because I find that again, like I said before, there's a lot of sort of normalized unhealthy behavior that you know starts from university actually and it carries forward throughout people's careers. And I've seen that and I've heard that from, you know senior architects and that sort of thing and they kind of all just kind of say yeah but that's how architecture is and it's kind of like it doesn't need to be honestly and you know you don't need to be slaving away for hours on end just to get that first in your degree or anything. So I think I'm I'm hopeful that by kind of showing people that it can be done, People start adopting that kind of method and kind of you know saying no to you know working late or that kind of thing. If you're pressured into it, of course, if you prefer working like that then that's totally fine but you know not having to feel like you're being kind of peer pressured into this kind of thing or or something like that. That that's what I would hope.

B I hadn't actually seen Sona's Instagram page until you pointed it out to me. So leading up to this interview, I've been observing it and studying it and trying to understand what approach is she taking that's a different way to look at doing Instagram? And I would say it's really graphics focused. You know, she's doing a lot of content that is translating ideas into readable content.

A Yeah. And I would argue that I feel like architects need to do a little bit more about what they're like to work with, about who they are as a firm, and that's necessarily not all graphic space. It was really interesting to me because people like Sona are leveraging social media as a relationship building tool. And, you know, I listened to I listened to all the older firm leaders talk about how architecture is based on relationships. Right? So especially in today's day and age, when we are in a pandemic still, where we are, you know, now we're having to mask up again. How do we turn to these online platforms to really begin to build relationships? And I think it's one thing to post beautiful pictures out of there, but then really what is the value that you are offering potential clients if all you're posting is a picture of the work you do? I think it's much more interesting to not only post a picture, but talk about understanding the thought process around how you work, and what you are like as an individual or even as a company to work with. To kind of intrigue people. If I'm a potential client and I like a certain aesthetic of a firm, but I can't decide which firm's aesthetic I like better, then it really comes down to who do I wanna work with.

B I have to admit because I spent a lot of time working with architects in an architecture studio setting doing marketing, I have this bias. Maybe it's even unconscious towards photography. It seems like we were always talking about project photography, and I think I just tend to think about Instagram as a photography based forum. So generating custom graphics for me on Instagram is a whole new route to take. I mean, I've done stills, promotional stills, which is what we're doing on the practice of architecture page. But I don't think I would have really taken it as far as what is doing in her multi page approach, and it even shows up kinda in her stories. It's more it's more about what she's saying rather than the images. But I think that it really resonates with our audience, which is getting me kinda thinking about, well, what are Gen z emerging leaders thinking about? Something that stood out to me at the top of the episode is this idea that you presented about how you think about using social media.

B You said that you use it to find new ideas and research, and that really got me thinking after we recorded the intro about my own thoughts and preferences on social media. Like, how am I using it? What do I wanna get out of it? And then also, like, what ways have I seen others use it? So I narrowed it down to 4 themes, and did kind of an informal straw poll with my audience who is composed of a lot of architects to see where they stood on this issue. So number 1, I was thinking of it as Instagram as a digital portfolio to share creative content. That seems to be the one that I see the most with architects, especially architecture firms. Number 2 is a digital photo album for personal memories. Number 3 is this idea that you presented And number 4, I thought about the community aspect and Instagram is a place to communicate and have community. I'm sure there are others, but to me, this seemed to capture a lot of the primary uses I've seen, and it seemed that there were varied responses. But, definitely, the number one personal use was as a digital photo album for memories.

B And then I also had, like, a lot of what I call lurkers. So I don't know where they stand, but they just like to to browse and cruise Instagram stories. For me, especially during COVID, I think my Instagram account has largely been a way to communicate with my friends who are spread out over the country and, you know, I even have some international friends. So for me, it's definitely, way to communicate and have community. But when I think about architecture firms, I still think of them as trending towards this idea of the portfolio and Instagram as a project, photography space. There's definitely firms like Olson Kundig is 1. Werner Walker is another that I follow. They're very heavy on the, photo aspect of Instagram.

B The way that you should be thinking about your Instagram strategy is really varied based on the needs of the users and your audience. I also thought about like, when I was doing marketing for architects at at LMS, I was really trying to push us further than the portfolio. We actually were able to develop 4 themes that were different subjects that we could get content on at any given time. So there's, you know, there's always projects, but I really started pushing for people based photos or content that responded to the social values of the firm, which for them, it's definitely about social impact and climate action. And then we would post social events, and sometimes these were tied to projects. So, like, a great example, an easy one that any architect can, if they remember to do it, is groundbreakings. We actually got in one shot the mayor of San Francisco breaking ground with a shovel on a really important affordable housing site. So just coming up with themes that really resonate with the the spirit and the culture of the firm is a powerful way to even go beyond project photography in the way that you're communicating.

B And the reason that you would wanna do that is because it captures the culture of the people who design the projects, not just the projects themselves, and essentially translate, like, what matters most to these designers and architects. And it's a reflection of the values and the heartbeat of the firm.

A I think this is even more important as we're in this great resignation period too. Right? Because if you think about potential candidates looking for your firm and and if and if you're in a firm right now that is, like, dying for talent, but you don't have anything out there that tells you about what it's like to work at your firm, your firm's the values, the culture that, you know, just has the firm leadership up there. So they don't even know who, like, who who are their peers. I think it's just a missed opportunity. So both from, a a candidate employee selection standpoint, but also from the client standpoint. What's been really interesting to me is the amount of people that I've talked, been talking to lately that met over social and then created like a real online or real offline, friendship out of it. I think you even talked about how in our last podcast about how you met Laura on social. Right? And then you finally kinda met in person.

A But it's just it just goes to show you that real relationships can be built on these platforms in meaningful ways and that we shouldn't be leveraging them more as a relationship builder rather than, as you said, kind of pure portfolio.

B Let's talk about what tool Sana is using because there are a lot of options out there you can explore. You know, when I first started doing social media, I was using Photoshop, and now there are products like Canva, Adobe Spark, Descript, and more. And, I guess, she said she's using Figma.

A Yeah. And I wanna preface actually, it's funny because I wanna preface this by saying, I think you and I both want to do more with the practice of architecture social sites. So if somebody is listening to this and then goes on to our our Instagram page, I would say, that that is not where we want our Instagram page to be and that this still is a learning process for you and I both. Right?

B Well, it's funny because I think it's enough, but I think you want more. And I I I certainly think we can keep growing it. But given time constraints, I just don't have the bandwidth to create the amount of content that I think you're looking for. I also realized through this conversation that maybe I'm a little bit of a geriatric millennial. When I was once really on top of my game in social media, I think there's definitely new talent coming up behind me that have a new idea about what social media is and should be. And Sana is an example of someone who's looking at it from a new angle and experimenting, which I know you're always excited about people who are experimenting. And I think that we can always be learning new strategies and testing new ideas. I'm frankly trying to figure out who our audience is and what's important to them.

B To me, like, that should be the driver of how we develop content.

A Yeah. If I'm learn if I've learned anything from business coaches outside of architecture, it's it's kind of in the back of the mind is what, like, what value are you delivering to your audience? Like, if everything I'm putting out there, somebody can walk away and say, like, that's an interesting take away. How can I either how can I use that to change the way I think? Or how can I use that to do things differently? Then for me, then I'm creating momentum. Right? Then we're driving change. Then we're creating really real value. I want to deliver greater value. So, yeah, I I think there's a ton of tools out there. I you know, Adobe Spark is trying to make it a lot easier for you to be able to post across multiple platforms in a very visual way.

A Right? Figma is really interesting and free in terms of organizing graphic material and prototyping things out. And it's it's used it's used, by in tech a lot. So if you know, I think we have a lot of UX, UI, hopeful wannabe designers out there. Figma is a great place to mock that all up and to create an app and show how it would work. But also, Sana uses it differently. She mocks up her entire social media spread in Figma and then, just, like, copies it and pastes it into Instagram.

B So immediately after we got off this interview, Sana gave us a demo of what she's been using and how she's using it. And it was really cool to see her process. She's using Figma as a drawing board to brainstorm her ideas. And when she kinda has them developed, she she then zooms in and clips them off the drawing board into the content for Instagram.

A Yeah. And then it's easily, like, templated too. Right? And the great thing about all of these programs now is that if you actually have brand colors, you can have those directly in all the programs and fonts and your logos. At least you have that level of consistency across all your marketing material, which, usually if you're a big firm and have a marketing coordinator is very easy to do. But if you're a smaller and medium sized firm, unless it's the same person posting every single time, you'll see like a lot of discrepancy across things. So anyways, it just makes it easier to keep brand consistency, to create templates. And, you know, she Sona also talks about so we both use Todoist. I think she was the one that actually got me interested in in Notion as a productivity tool.

A Like I said, I've learned a lot from her.

B I think that's the thing I noticed most about Sona is she's producing and she has produced quite a bit of content, which is time consuming. And so kudos Sana for being, I mean, mainly inspired to generate all of those ideas and then taking the time to document them in a way that's transferable and shareable with her community?

A Yeah. So go check out To Scale. It started off obviously as a blog, but she is on Instagram. We will put the links in our program notes. And thank you so much for tuning in this week, and we will see you next Thursday. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

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