Architecture, And: MBA

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hello, Evelyn. Hello, disruptors.

A In prior conversations, we have both been asked about the value of a MBA paired with an architecture education, partly because we both have MBAs. So we wanted to dedicate an episode to explore this topic further to not only answer any questions people may have about what a business education is or is not, and to also discuss who is best suited to pursue this type of education.

B Everyone who's included on this episode represents a different phase of having secured an MBA. And to start, I thought we could go through, Evelyn, your and my experience on where we're at. So for me, I'm 4 years post graduation after earning my MBA from Mills College in Oakland, and my MBA was really an opportunity to explore this underlying passion that I had for business. I came out of architecture school and I was wanting to step into business. And so finally, I did it later on in my career, and I used my business classes to think about the framework of business applied to architecture. And, ultimately, my MBA was the pathway that launched me towards starting my consulting business. So I ended up earning a concentration in social entrepreneurship, which is a class that I actually took twice, once during my 1st semester, as a credit, and then later, I took it in my last semester as an audit.

A I didn't know that.

B Yeah. This was where I wrote my, business plan for Apostrophe Consulting. I basically I went to school, like, part time in the evenings while I was working full time in San Francisco for architects during the day. And most weeks, I would, like I'd wake up at 5 AM to finish homework or project work before the workday would even start. I would listen to audio recordings of myself, reading study materials, like, on my commute on BART trying to, like, fit in time to study, and I would, you know, work on homework during my lunch breaks. All that to say, I just vividly remember taking the bus between San Francisco and Oakland and often arriving on campus pretty exhausted from a full day of work. But my classes at Mills were like this great escape in the evenings to a world where I joined conversations with like minded peers, and we would have really interesting conversations about solving complex societal problems through business. And that's where I learned how to expand my vocabulary and my capacity to think about problem solving beyond, like, the ARCHI speak, and to really look at the broader context of the way business could robustly, like, expand the way that you can think about problem solving.

A Yeah. My story was so different than yours. And the story I tell in presentations, which makes, like, my career a really nice linear path, and then there's kind you know you know another person in the profession who knew at a very young age that they wanted to be an architect. I had no idea what that fully entailed, but it was something I knew I wanted to be when I was, you know, from 4th grade on. And ultimately, when I became very close to getting my licensure and becoming an architect, I had become completely disillusioned by the profession. So I spent the majority of my time in firms working with school districts, universities and cities and never fully got to engage the end users, in the planning process of our buildings, which is really frustrating to me. And in California, if you are doing schools, you have to deal with the DSA or the Department of the State Architect, which is another layer of bureaucracy, for better or worse. And contractors are awarded projects based on the lowest bid.

A So at least that's how it was done at the time. So on one job site that I was running CA on, there was literally secondary trailer set up by the contractor that had individuals combing through our drawings looking for mistakes so that they could change order their way to a profit. And I was just so frustrated and, you know, there's gotta be a better way out there. I had become completely burnt out by the AIA because at by then, I had been involved in leadership long enough that conversations were taking place on a rotational basis. Like, it could literally say, like, we had the same conversation, you know, 5 to 10 years ago, and we haven't moved the needle since that original conversation. So I was feeling really lost. But I also happened to be in my later twenties. I was single and I was unattached.

A And I thought, like, why not? Let's take a break, go back to school, and use that time and that degree to kind of leverage a plan to a new career. Like, I felt like that was my path forward. And then while I was getting my MBA, I specifically, like, shut down like, people knew I was an architect because they have this thing at, UCLA. It's, like, literally a Facebook that comes out and you, like, has, like, your past job or your, like, profession. It's a it's a physical face. Facebook, where you can flip through your your classmates. So people knew I was an architect, but I specific like, I stayed away from any green building club, from any, like, urban urban social capital kind of, VC investments in the city type of thing. And I just, like, I shut down, like, connecting with, like, any folks that were interested in the built environment, and I really tried to throw myself in in multiple different directions to see what I was most passionate about.

A And, ultimately, it made me realize that I missed pieces of architecture and that I missed I especially missed the people that I got to work with in the profession and ultimately found my way back. But I also transferred programs from UCLA Anderson to the Presidio Graduate School. I added a degree a degree, so I got my MBA and my MPA. There's a whole another conversation we can have about that, and I came out with a boatload of debt. So, is it for everyone? I think that's a part of what we'll be discussing today in our group conversation, where Janine and I will be joined by the following 2 leaders in the architecture space who have also pursued MBAs.

B First up, we have Cori White who joined us in season 1 on episode 14 where we were talking about training the next generation of leaders and her work on, some of the leadership development programs that have come out of the AIA. Cori White is an architect and associate at DLR Group. She's also an MBA candidate at the UIUC College of Business. She is a Forte Fellow, which is a leadership honor that she was granted to help her with her studies. And she is also an at large member for the AIA Strategic Council, where she's serving a term from 2020 to 2021, followed by the incoming role of AI strategic council moderator in 2022.

A Keith Caddo is an architect and MBA. He's worked on a variety of project types, including small and large custom homes, k 12, and higher education. He's interested in how business innovations can expand the market for architecture and how our communities can grow stronger by unleashing hidden potential. While in school, he was fortunate to participate and then lead the AIAS freedom by design program that delivered projects that serve seniors and houseless individuals. Keith is currently participating in the great resignation and exploring possibilities aligned with his values. Let's cut to the conversation.

C Hi. I'm I live in Chicago, Illinois. I am working as an architect and education planner at DLR Group here, and I just started my 2nd year of the MBA program at the University of Illinois, which is actually an online MBA program.

D My name is Keith Kato. I'm in Honolulu, Hawaii. Currently, I'm, participating in the great resignation, but I've worked on a variety of project types from small and large residential construction, k to 12 projects, and higher education projects. I pursued a dual degree for my, masters. I got an MBA and a MArch at the same time.

C So I guess I should should roll back a little bit. I finished up undergrad at the University of Illinois in architecture in 2,011, and that was about the last cycle of, the end of a recession. And so at that time, I decided to go straight into grad school for a master's in architecture. But what I didn't realize at that time was that I hadn't really studied anything else. So I really had no idea what sort of career path I wanted, when I was going into grad school. And while I was pretty, I would say, overall happy with the education I got while pursuing my master in architecture and dual degree with master in urban and regional planning, I felt there was sort of a a missing piece of all of that. And so ever since I had finished up that first round of grad school, I sort of knew there would probably be a second chapter of going back to school at some point in my future. At the time, I had no idea that it was gonna be business, so I did not take any business classes.

C I didn't think I had any interest in it. But then as I started working and got into my career and realized what I was truly passionate about within the field of architecture, I realized that there was a great alignment with a master's of business administration. And so really about 3 years ago, I would say, is when I started looking into that possibility, but I didn't actually, jump in until the pandemic hit because I was sitting at home with time on my hands. A lot of MBA programs waived all of their application fees and all of their testing requirements and all of that. So I was like, well, this is a really low risk situation, so I'm just gonna go for it. And I ended up applying, to the University of Illinois' online IMBA program and was accepted and then was able to start pretty much, within the next few months because they have a rolling admissions talk. So, there was really no gap in between the time I decided to actually do it and between the time that I got to start actually taking the classes, which is great.

B Yeah. I do remember that you got going really fast from the time that we heard that you got admitted until your first your first class. You were, like, had I feel like you had an orientation class, like, in pretty early on immediately. Yes.

A Did you not have to take the GMAC then?

C No. I didn't. I studied I studied for it for a while, but then decided that that was just not gonna, that I after the Ares, I cannot do another test. And so it I guess it was the perfect storm of the pandemic waiving a lot of the requirements. And I will say University of Illinois has a waiver. If you have enough work experience, you don't have to take the GMAT for their program.

B I toured 5 schools in the Bay Area. And, basically, the school I picked didn't have the GMAT. And I was like, alright. This is cool. I'm I'm down with this. But, Keith, your story is really unique because you were actually in architecture school, and you found a program that had this dual option. And you were the 1st student to do it. Right?

D So they had a there's a there's a program in the the university that allowed for a custom dual degree. So I've I broke out and said, I'm gonna go figure out how to do this dual degree. The plan when I originally kinda went to undergrad is to to go somewhere else for grad school. A lot of factors kind of compounded to make me decide to stay at stay at UNM, and this was kind of like, well, if I'm gonna be here, and I'm kind of already got the got the the hang of things, know the school, you know, know the the the lay of the land. I was like, I think I can have another another major. So I went out. The obvious one was MBA. I was kind of sick of hearing, professors and and and visiting practitioners say, you know, there's no money in architecture.

D And that just always kind of floored me, like, how is this possible? This is the single most expensive asset most people or businesses ever going to invest in, and and the designers, you know, have this have this meme, this trope in their mind that there's no money in architecture.

B So did you find that after going through your MBA program, you had more hope for architects making money or no?

D I think I realized a lot of it is industry dynamic, but at the end at the same time, I think there's a, a huge management component. Every almost every creation story of a firm, the the principles will admit no idea what I was doing. I just started a I started Affirm and figured it out along the way. I feel like there's a opportunity to maybe go in with knowing a little bit more than that.

C Yeah. I would agree. I think that's been one of the biggest 's for me is like, I heard that continuously. I've been at small firms, I've been at large firms, I've been working with people that are like, I just had no idea how to manage anything. I just came into this knowing how to design. And the piece that was like, oh, there is actually something to business and leadership and management. Like, there are principles, There's research. There's applied theory.

C There's this whole world which is very synonymous with what we learned in architecture school that backs up all of these practices and principles and roots them in actual work that has been done rather than just sort of winging it.

B So you guys both decided this was for you and you wanted to pursue this education. So let's maybe shift into the dynamics between what your perception of an MBA was versus what the reality was. Because I think this is like this mysterious thing. People are always asking me, should I go get an MBA? People know it's an interesting education, but let's talk about the difference between what people think versus what it is.

C I think my biggest fear and maybe what held me back from doing it sooner was the, like, the financial and accounting classes. Right? I had never in economics. I've never taken any of those in my architectural educational journey, and I was really fearful that I would not be able to do them even though I had completed different structural courses and a variety of other, higher math courses, but for some reason, that was very elusive to me. What I have realized is that an MBA is really there to give you general knowledge about a whole variety of topics, not to make you an accountant or a financial adviser or an investment adviser, but really to give you the knowledge to have a conversation with the people who are experts at that. So, my perception is that it's really more approachable than I think it gets made out to be, whether that's in, Forbes articles or on different websites or blogs or the fear of the GMAT even. Right? Like, I think that's can be a big roadblock for a lot of people is, you're testing a lot of math skills that you've not used in a really long time if you've been practicing architecture. And so, you know, for me, I didn't have to take the GMAT, so that was a hurdle I sort of stepped around. But then the classes themselves that scared me the most have really been fairly accessible and approachable.

C And the professors themselves have said, we know you're not going like you're not going on to be an accountant or do really high level microeconomic, studies or research. But this is just to give you the tools to have those conversations and sort of have a broader knowledge base related to that. So that's been refreshing to to realize that my perception very much differed from the reality.

A When I went and got my MBA, it was like because I was older for my class, right, I think the average class at UCLA where I was a full time student, well, I I actually went between 2 schools, right? At UCLA, I was older. At the Presidio, I was kind of even younger or average because there are more people who have invested a lot more time in their careers before they jumped into the Presidio, was just, you know, it's the the notion of the architect held true, the whole, oh, you're an architect, And people try to bring me in on, like, certain things. Only in my headspace at the time, I was specifically, I think maybe unlike anyone here. I, like, specifically shut down anything related to architecture, building, real estate. Like, I just I didn't wanna for me, it was a time of exploration. It wasn't like, I wasn't doing architectural school at the same time. It was I was, like, burnt out on the AIA. I was burnt out on the profession.

A So so it was just funny because everyone's like, oh, you're an architect. Let's pull you back into this. And I was really struggling to, like, find a new identity, like, in my late twenties, figuring out what was my next my next steps after the MBA program.

C That really resonates with me, and I experienced that in my, first round of grad school, as I like to call it, when I was doing urban planning simultaneously. And I I tried to go into those classes, like, not as an architect, but everybody put me in into that box. And then but then I would, like, go back to the architecture ones. And then they'd be like, oh, but you're in planning now. And I'm like, no, it's like you can, these identities are not like separated. But I've also found that in the, MBA program, and I'm at a bit of a different stage, I think, than you, Evelyn. I sort of went through my burnout resist all architecture phase a few years ago. And I, at the time, felt like an MBA was really gonna be my ticket out of here.

C And I was like, I'm gonna this is gonna open doors, but I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. And then when I sort of reframed, like, my relationship to the architecture profession and realized, like, wow. There's really actually more I can do here, and I have all this knowledge base by which I can build upon that. I'm now seeing it as this for me, it's real I'm really at a stage where I'm very open to staying in the profession of architecture and bettering it with this new knowledge base. Had I not, sort of gone through that previous burnout phase, I don't know that I would be doing it in this order. Like, I think it would have been a totally different scenario for me. So I think it is really interesting to think about, like, how one goes to school or gets this education and how they relate it to the architecture background at the time. I don't know.

C This is posing an interesting thought question for me.

B I was definitely I'm gonna go and then, Keith, I'm gonna pass it to you. But I was definitely going through an identity shift when I decided to go for my MBA. I was finding that what I thought the profession of architecture was was not aligning with what I thought it was going to be, and there was something missing. And so maybe like the way Keith was describing in some ways, I went in search of those answers in the business education because I knew I knew from a very early age that I wanted to be an entrepreneur, like, very young. Like, when I was when I played make believe as a kid, like, I knew I was gonna be a business owner one day. But as an adult, when I went into my architecture program, I knew immediately I wanted a business education. And when I was like, okay. Well, the things I'm looking for aren't here.

B I'm gonna go get this MBA and maybe the education will have answers that I can bring back to help make this profession better. And that's pretty much what I have done with it. So I I used it as like a a tool to add to what I already knew and expand and find solutions in the profession through the through what I was learning.

D Was there a period when you came back after your MBA, Janine, but you hadn't started Apostrophe Consulting yet?

B Yeah. Sort of. I mean, Apostrophe Consulting started out of the recession, so that was I did it wasn't named that, but it was 10 years ago when I was I knew that I started I was starting to do this consulting work. It wasn't I didn't have a name for what the business was or what I was doing, and then it evolved. But when I got done with my education, like, my final presentation in my strategy class was Apostrophe Consulting. It was talking about how I was gonna deliver this consulting service. But when I graduated, I wasn't practicing full time with my business. I had to kind of there were a few years before I was ready to launch, and I was trying to apply what I was learning into the architecture studios that I was working for with mixed results, and I was struggling through that process.

B That was very hard because I felt like the way I saw the world was not the way the world was for the architects that I was working with, and I almost felt like I was speaking another language and trying to convince them.

D Yeah. I feel like that's where I'm at right now, and figuring out what, what to do. I'm I'm enjoying the the breathing room I've allowed myself to have, but I think the architecture engineering construction industry is is one of the slowest to adopt changes and innovations in in general. And I think changing the the firms and businesses, I don't know if that necessarily that's not something a lot of people are trying to do as long as the bills the bills are getting paid. It's almost like there's this birth and death cycle, and then new ideas come, new ways of managing come. Or it just, you know, grows and grows and grows into something like an ecom, or there's, you know, there's no, there's no way then not to embrace like management practices when you're a firm that size.

B And you're like really at the point where you're trying to figure out that where that MBA is gonna connect in your career, if I'm correct, Keith. Like, you're kind of in that discovery phase of saying, I've got this great education. How do I apply it? Yeah.

A I think that's where I was when I graduated. I I was at a point where I actually had started to reengage in the AIA again because I I miss the I miss the people. I mean, honestly, because I was so engaged before, I was like, there's this piece of extended family that I'm that I'm missing, and there's an opportunity to help those individuals. But I was I graduated in 20 2012. Right? Things were just beginning to pick up. I wanted I wasn't clear if I wanted to come back to the building industry, and I began I was like, well, now I have this extra credential. So that means that I felt like it was, like, an open door to, like, now I should be able to apply to all of these other positions. And what I what I struggle with there was, people didn't know how to take the previous work my previous work experience and how it translated, and I still didn't, you know, I still didn't necessarily have the language set to, like, to help them clearly understand what that was too.

A Right? I was actually applying to all these PMO positions, which are, like, project management positions, and they're like, well, you don't have any project management experience. And I was like, well, if you I I don't know, if you, like, don't count, like, being the lead architect on a remodel of a major, like, high school project management where you're, like, working with a ton of consulting and managing towards a schedule and on budget, like, yeah, I guess you could say I don't have project management experience. So I've always struggled, you know, so people and I don't know where I'm necessarily going with this. I guess people have always told me with my architecture degree, 1, you can do so many things. And then I went and got my MBA, and now they're like, oh, now you can do so many more things. But really, like, getting taking those next steps have been were incredibly hard for for me, and it was more about, like, figuring out personally what it is that is exactly what it is that I want to do and then, like, pushing myself in those directions rather than than trying to I guess, it was it was more of a push than a pull. I don't know how else to describe it.

C Yeah. I think that one of the things that I've noticed too is very much like someone graduating out of architecture. The same holds for people graduating with MBAs. Right? Like, if you wanna do a certain type of consulting work or if you want to go do like, focus in a certain area, there's a hierarchy of how you enter into those career paths that's pretty set. And a lot of times, it is started with someone at a young age who maybe has some sort of 4 year degree where they went off and worked it.

A And it doesn't matter if you have an MBA, ultimately.

C Right. Right. Exactly. But then a lot of times, there's incentivization to go back from, like, a major company and get your MBAs that you can make more money and go up to a senior management level. But really, like, it's just a check on the box. And so, like, their companies are paying for it. Therefore, it's it's, the education has become very expensive and can be cost prohibitive to people who are truly looking for a change in what they're doing professionally. And so, like, I've had a hard time when I was starting to look, I had a hard time with that because I was like, I'm not at an age where I can just go be a consultant who's traveling 3 weeks out of my month to to sort of change job tracks or find a new career path.

C And so that really forced me to think about, like, what do you wanna do with this? Why are you doing it? And what do you hope it helps you get on the other side? A lot of those, I don't know if I've fully answered yet, but I've at least come to terms with the fact that I'm I'm not trying to restart a full career. I guess I'm trying to build, like you said, Evelyn, with what you have from your previous. But it is tricky because not everybody understands what what it is that we have from our architecture experience.

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B Maybe we can shift into shining a light on what it is from the MBA experience that perhaps the architects don't understand about our training. So let's let's dive into this question about what you guys found valuable from the education. So, Corey, what were some of the things that you really have been enjoying about your your MBA program?

C This is a great question. I am a lifelong learner. If I do any of those, like, strength finders or personality tests, the number one trait I get is learner. And I think that holds really true. But so I've just really enjoyed learning anything and everything. But I think the things that I've found most interesting are really those that are based in the research of different business principles or leadership principles that are tested and hold sort of tried and true throughout the history of all businesses. Right? There are some things, concepts that, I've seen in practice that I didn't even realize was, a business principle. And it was like such an moment when I was

A like, oh. Could actually put a name around these things.

C Yeah. Exactly. Or organizational management. I think, one of the things that I learned sort of organically from volunteerism and specifically the AIA is that, like, so much goes into managing just an organization of people with different needs and different desires and, like, a common goal. And so but there's, like, there's research and there are principles around how to do that or change management as one example of a concept that, like, there are whole classes. There are whole degrees. There are whole businesses built around the idea of change management. And, like, that was really mind blowing to me, as silly and simple as it sounds, but it just kind of opened my eyes to beyond the walls of what I was used to.

C And so I think just sort of seeing how small, a single entity is within this wide world of research and history of different industries has been really interesting.

B How about you, Keith?

D Sim similar to what Corey said, but but also, I mean, just realizing that it's not just the the building that we're designing. We're designing the the business, and just like the building has context, all business has context. So I think, you know, in my professional experience, there isn't necessarily a focus on, like, why are we doing what we're doing? What market are we, like, trying to serve? Or what market do we want to serve? And what are the steps we can go to get there? So, for instance, I think for me, I'm passionate about kind of expanding the market of architecture and trying to get more people, exposed to architecture, interested in architecture, or even just being able to afford it, whether whether it's, like, you know, full service full services or something kind of in between. But if you're not thinking of how to develop a business, or how to to grow a business, or how, like, what needs the change on the back end for us to be able to serve a different market or evolve our firm to, you know, go into a a different market? I guess thinking of the business as a as a design in and of itself and where you wanna go. There's so many facets of and trade offs with with any design project. I think it holds true for a a business as well. And then having the the the foundational knowledge or at least the the know where to look for more information on on that on those fronts.

B That really resonates with me because what I found in my classwork is that the thinking is not different than an architecture education. It's just that you're learning to apply the problem solving skills to a different set of variables. So instead of thinking about we're putting it towards a building and all these systems that come together, the systems and the business application, it's around the frameworks of business. So financial management, people management, project management. There's operational management. There's so many, you know, aspects of that. And then what I find really exciting is the strategy work. And that's like for me, it's like it's the same thing as being an architect.

B You're solving a puzzle. It the puzzle is just a different thing than a building.

D But if you're not aware you're even making a, you know, a puzzle, it's hard it's hard to know where the the the pieces will go.

A For me, it was all of that, but it was also, like, the the little things that you think every school would teach you. But but I was also just, like, wanting the the need I guess it was the little traits that actually make people who come out of business school think a little bit more entrepreneurially. Right? Like, I never heard of an informational interview until I went to business school, and I use them all the time to just get my foot in the door in the places, like, and talk to people that I would otherwise never even think about me, like, reaching out to. But for me, it wasn't it was a it was a collective of the business systems, but it was also, like, how how do I start, like, thinking about how everything is an is an opportunity for where I could also move my career forward in a new direction, which is not something that I inherently ever thought about, like, having just come out of architecture school. And maybe that was because I was, like, focused on what do I need to do to get licensed, and I wasn't thinking about the bigger picture. But there but there there was definitely different ways of, like, thinking about I'm always thinking about the opportunity now, and that was not something that I had, like, just coming out of architecture school.

C Yeah. I agree with you. I actually just finished a course on entrepreneurship. And I think before I took that, I would always have these ideas pop up of, like, oh, what if this were a thing? Or what if this were a service? Or what if we did x, y, or z? And now it's like, oh, I have a framework to, like, actually take one of those ideas and see it through. Like, even if it's not a great idea, I at least know that there's steps if I did wanna pursue that. And that's become really exciting. And even though I am I really love my role and my job that I have right now, I'm seeing opportunity within my current, like, structure of things to improve upon and be like, oh, I could give my manager a proposal of how we change x, y, or z process and how it'll trickle down and with the tools we need to do that. And I think before, I just sort of saw it as a problem that maybe I didn't have the answer to, but now it's like, oh, I see it as a problem, and here's a solution that might work.

C And I that has become really exciting for me and just sort of tackling the day to day challenges of working in the architectural profession.

B Do you guys wanna share maybe your favorite class from your MBA education?

D Mine was definitely, organizational behavior and diversity and strategic planning. So kind of like the the nitty gritty and the the super meta.

C Yes. Mine were really similar. I will say I'm only a year in, so I have quite a few classes to, to still take. But mine by far has been the course on leadership and teams. It sounds very generic. It covered a whole bunch of topics, but it was really about, like, fundamental behavioral concepts and theories and how that applies to our administrative work of putting together teams, putting together an organizational structure, how people make decisions, how they handle conflict, and what are the social structures in place that impact our work. And I happen to be taking it, in the fall of 2020. So we were obviously, as a society, talking a lot about all of that as well.

C And I had a wonderful professor who held office hours and just, like, let us ask any questions about social structures in general and then how that translates to the workplace. Because I think for the first time, a lot of us were seeing that impact the work. Usually a topic that is separate from business or workplace was becoming really integral to everything that we did in business. And so that was a pretty interesting collision of time and class work that I I personally got a lot out of and, I think will influence, you know, sort of how I direct my career path moving forward.

B One question that your answer just reminded me of is that the way classwork is done and the homework assignments are done in a business education is quite different than the studio environment in in architecture. Has that process changed the way you guys approach problem solving in any any application, in practice, or just like in your life, like, at all? Has that had any influence?

C Yeah. I would say that, from day 1, we were very aware that every class is going to be team based. So you have a team from the start, and you go all the way through, and you're gonna have multiple assignments. And if people don't show up, too bad. Figure it out. Whereas in architecture school, I felt for the most part, it was very individual. And you were having to sort of see the whole thing through, which was very opposite to how practice works. Right? Like, 1st day of practice, you're on a team.

C You're making decisions with other people. And so I do think that that is a practical application of business school that's really helpful because you go through this. Your grade is relying upon a group of other people, but you learn in a pretty safe environment how to manage conflict team responsibility, agreements in advance so that you don't get to a place where the day before the final, you have no project because nobody else picked up the Slack. So I think that that has been, a challenge, but a really good opportunity to strengthen just how I approach teamwork in

D general. Absolutely. Yeah. Teamwork is is huge for a a a business education. I mean, I think it should be bigger in an architecture education. As you've said, Corey, that is how practice typically works. Whether it's you're a sole proprietor or, you know, of a huge firm, you're gonna be working with a range of people.

B So what ways do you guys think that an MBA supports or furthers a career in architecture? And maybe we should start with you, Evelyn, because you're the one furthest out, and we can work backwards. So you, me, then I think it's Keith, and then Corey who's in our process right now.

A This is a hard one for me to answer because and I think that, you know, both Corey and Keith said it, business school is not gonna be your answer to everything. Right? And I'm finding myself in a position right now where, like, I've actually pursued and paid for a business coach on top of everything because what he's offering specifically is very different than what I got in in business school and even more entrepreneurial, arguably. And and I haven't made it back to the profession in a way I think that Janine and Corey have, you know, and Keith is finding his own way right now. I I mean, I think I don't know. This is a hard one because I don't encourage everyone to get get their MBA either.

B That's fair. I I would say there's definitely a type of person that would do really well in a in a business education. For me, it definitely gave me a lot more confidence on financial management. Like, I had to take a lot of quantitative classes that I didn't wanna take and econ classes. And while they weren't my favorite, like, I definitely know how to read financial statements and do things that I previously didn't understand how to do. But for me, I think the value it adds is learning how to problem solve on different problems other than just the details. Like, I feel like the the you start to look at problems in a lot of different applications and understand that things that you previously felt like were just circumstances become opportunities to apply thinking to solving them.

A Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. But I feel like most I feel like most of the architects that are asking me, do you wanna go get your MBA? And maybe it's because of where my career path has taken me because they're looking for they were looking for a different career path, right, outside architecture, For me, it was for all the reasons why Corey and Keith said all of their classes they liked and that you just said, Janine, it was really it's really about the like, creating the structures and frameworks because I am an operational geek on that side of things and, like, an organizational management, like but that's where that's where, like, the design of those systems is where I thrive. So, you know, if you're if you're, like, a designer and you're just, like, looking to transition, like, I don't know if that would be the right fit for somebody who's just like, I'm just, and and you don't necessarily need to go get your MBA to start your own business.

C No. I I think that's spot on, Evelyn. And I'll just, like, give a brief synopsis of how my program works because I've I've mentioned a few times that it's online. And that was a recent switch that the University of Illinois made deliberately before the pandemic. So they realized there was an opportunity to democratize business education and bring it more globally and have a cohort of students that is more globally so that everyone can benefit from those relationships and that networking. And so my program pairs online learning through Coursera with live lectures and assignments and tests and all of your typical, school things that we're used to. And so all of the the online learning piece is done asynchronously. So I can do it at any time from anywhere.

C I can download it before I go on a flight. I can, you know, do it anywhere. I can connect to Wi Fi. But anybody can do those. You don't have to go back and spend the money to get an MBA in order to to watch those courses or subscribe to them. I think they're relatively affordable, and anybody could take a basic financial, accounting course that's, you know, 4 weeks long and have the knowledge they need to put in place a structure for starting a firm or even knowing what a balance sheet and an income statement is. Right? Like, something as basic as that. There's a lot of online education.

C And so I do think the what the knowledge you're trying to gain is a really important question to clarify before you pursue, additional education or particularly an MBA. Because it is really operational, and even the accounting and finance classes that I've taken that I was really terrified of, I kinda geek out on them because that's just how my mind works. So if that's not you, then it could be really painful.

D I think if you're thinking about an MBA, you might be a a prospect for an MBA. I think, know, in architecture school, there's a there's a lot of intuitive artistic people, and the idea of a structures class, let alone a whole MBA, is just the, you know, the worst possible thing. I'm personally kind of a a right down the middle, maybe a little bit more towards the analytical depending on the the time of day or more artistic depending on the time of day. And, I mean, I got into architecture because I wanna make an impact. You know, we're we're taught we can change the world in architecture school, but we're given practice management as our only foundational class. I think if you're wanting to make an impact and not get sort of stuck in the morass of a a poorly managed firm or project or or just sort of wasting your time. It feels like you're wasting your time sometimes when you're in a in a bad situation, and there doesn't seem to be any insight or any chance to improve the operations of the firm. It's like you should be designing, improving, you know, increasing your market, anything.

D I feel like it's a it's a way to kind of enable a bigger bigger change central in your career and in in the world at large.

B I think you're right, Keith. I think that, this business education has been missing from the industry for a long time, and one practice pro prac class doesn't really equip people with enough information on the ways that they should be thinking about business and, architecture. I think, you know, there's so much emphasis on the design education that when people finally come into an ownership leadership opportunity and practice, they are perhaps missing some of the tools in order that they need to make that effective. And it's, it's not their fault. It's just the way the industry structures the education and the practice experience. But having the business education got me closer to those tools or much earlier in my career than any of my IDP or interning hours did. So, I guess the last question that I really wanna just address is, like, you know, you guys have already kinda touched on it, but, like, for people out there who are saying, is it MBA the right step for me? What advice can you give to them either about making that decision or playing or perhaps it's just advice that you wish you had heard?

C I think, like you are applying to architecture school, any MBA program is open to answering your questions, meeting with you. Obviously, we're probably still in somewhat of a virtual environment right now. But, like, when I was starting to think about it, I was going to MBA luncheons. I was, like, I was attending classes. Like, there are so many avenues that you can sort of test it out before you really make that decision to see if it's something that you like, to see if going back to school is a big commitment. It's a big you have to really reconfigure how you're going to balance if you're doing it while working or with your family responsibilities. And so by testing it through, attending a class or talking to current students, I think, is a really good way that's really easily accessible through any MBA program's websites to get a taste of what that might be like. And the second thing that I would think about, is even if you're not sure if you're ready to apply, take a stab at writing the essay.

C And if you feel like something comes to you, it might be the right move. If you are totally stuck and literally have no idea what you would say, I would wait on it and maybe do some more research, some more reflections, some more thinking. Because for me, that was a big moment, when I thought I was just ready to go back. And really, it was just a, sort of a shift of other things in my life that I was really needing. I thought that's what I wanted, but I sat down and was like, I have no idea why I want this. But then by the time that I had sort of figured out those other things and they had fallen into place, and then I sat down, it was like, in, you know, a matter of minutes, the essay was sort of pouring out of, like, how I thought that would be influential to my future career dreams and goals. And so that was pretty telling for me that it was the right moment to pursue it. So those would be my two tips.

A Just to piggyback off of what Corey is saying. Like, every MBA program wants to know that the students they bring in are just gonna, like they know what they wanna do with their edu that education after they leave. So you actually I don't know a program that doesn't kind of ask that question as one of their essays. So you absolutely have to be ready to answer that question.

C And they can tell when you're making it up or just, like, giving them some half thought answer because you just wanna go to school. Like, they're these are professionals who, see a lot of applications come through. So they can tell if you need it or not.

D And I think for an MBA, there's not necessarily an imperative to get it sooner or, like, as, you know, as whenever you're thinking about. You know, maybe if you're you're unsure, you can wait and and reflect on that more. It's not a grueling major like architecture school. People of of all all ages were in my MBA program versus, you know, architecture skews a lot a lot younger. So it's something you can, you know, wait to do as well.

B Before we get into our closing thoughts today, we wanted to share some info that we recently learned from the team at Arc IT.

A Our friends at Arc IT are helping architecture firms with their technology solutions, including fighting back against ransomware and cybersecurity attacks. They recently told us about 1 San Francisco based design firm they help who had 3 ransomware attacks in a span of 6 months. Their latest hit took their generic IT provider over 7 days to recover the data.

B Yikes. Imagine not having access to your project data for over 7 days. For a midsized firm of 40 people, that's a lot of people not having the ability to do work on their projects.

A Originally, the IT provider tried to recover all of their files at once. This took them a very long time and resulted in multiple errors and restarts. Once Art IT took over, they were able to come up with a precise recovery strategy by asking a simple question. What projects are the most critical projects your team is working on now? The team at ARC IT started the process of recovering these files and had the midsize firm up and running within 4 hours. After that, Arc IT was able to slowly recover the rest of their files.

B Because of ARC IT's strategic approach to cybersecurity and IT in general, this award winning design firm has not experienced any major security threats or downtime events since. Arc IT has been their trusted partner for over 3 years.

A ARC IT is offering a free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment to help you determine how secure your business is. During the assessment, Arc IT will help you identify your top three highest risk areas in your business.

B Speaking of risks, Arc IT is also sharing some helpful tips with practice disrupted listeners that you can implement tomorrow to ensure your business is secure from cybersecurity threats. Their latest tip is to enable 2 factor authentication for every business related service and personal services that store sensitive or credit card information, including Netflix. Tune in next week to hear the next tip from Arc IT. To take your security solutions further, contact arcit@www.getarkit.com slash pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions for your design firm. Janine, if you were to do the program all

A over again, would you do it while working full time, or would you take time off?

B I wish I had had the option to take time off because I think I would have really enjoyed being able go to school full time. I just unfortunately, I couldn't afford to do both in the Bay Area. So I was splitting my time, which made it a lot harder, and I was basically burnt out by the time I graduated. I mean, I took out the loans.

A That's how I did it. At the time, I wasn't in the Bay Area, though. I was in LA, which is a little bit more livable, but not necessarily a lot more livable. I had moved from living by myself and picked up I I started living my cousin had recently relocated to LA from the East Coast. So we were living together. We had, like I was now what I felt like was an adult with a roommate so I can manage rent, attending school full time.

B I always wondered what made you choose Anderson and then how you ended up up at Presidio as a transfer.

A I talked a little bit about it in, I think, the conversation, but, originally, I I didn't know why I was pursuing my MBA. So I literally, like, applied to all of the top schools, visited a few. I had this nostalgia, this weird nostalgia around UCLA because my parents met there. They had this evolving MBA program. Like I if you ask me now, I probably, there was not necessarily a rhyme or reason specifically why I picked Anderson. I, at the time, I was living in the Bay Area. I missed I missed LA, and my time at SCI Arc there. I wasn't interested even though I applied to a lot of e schools schools.

A Like, I just, like, I don't know. I was in my late twenties and I was just like, I don't need to do the New York thing. So I ended up at Anderson. And then what I found out was and and I blame the AREs for this, but my ability to take tests had gotten so much worse, like, standardized test taking throughout my adult life. It got like, I was starting to have panic attacks. And I was dealing with some family stuff my 1st year in business school. And frankly, Anderson's core classes so much was dependent upon like 1 or 2 tests that if you had a, you know, below the if you were below the bell curve, because a lot of the classes were graded on the bell curve, you were failing essentially. And I couldn't make it through the tests.

A And I also realized that I was getting taught by a lot of professors that had done incredible things at very a very young age, but they weren't, they were, they went to school, got their PhDs and they were now teaching me. And I felt there's got to be something going on in the real world that I could be bringing together with my education. Like, there's there's all of this stuff about social entrepreneurship that I was hearing about, but I wasn't being taught at Anderson. So I ultimately ended up transferring to the Presidio Graduate School. It was a really late transfer. So one of the ways I was able to actually get in the program was by picking up the dual degree. Because I literally applied to the Presidio. I think I was accepted.

A And then then I started class all within, like, 6 weeks. And it it it was partly because I was part of the inaugural MPA MPA degree. So that was also kind of happenstance. But I was actually really glad that I picked up the MPA because for me, like how I the the qualitative side of everything that I do with my work at Slack now, Salesforce, really comes from a lot of the courses that I learned in my MPA, which is a master's in public administration, but really quantifying qualitative data. And then my MBA is much more analytical, so I felt there was, like, a nice pairing there. Anyways, that was a really long answer to your question.

B Well, it's just interesting because I guess, like, for our listeners, like, UCLA has a completely different vibe than Presidio or, like, Mills. And I think that that's important to talk about is that MBA programs are all different, and that was definitely something that I realized by touring all these different business schools that they have different cultures. They have different emphasis. It's very similar to the way architecture schools are and that based on, you know, the culture of the school and the professors that are teaching there, it can really influence a different vibe. So for me, I really was not interested in going to a a big public institution or a major prominent institution. I was looking for something a little bit more intimate, and I feel like I got really lucky because Mills what was unique about it to me that made me wanna go there is its emphasis on elevating women into leadership roles. And they had had a lot of success, particularly with a partnership that they had had with AT and T about getting women into, young leadership roles within, you know, their first couple years out of the MBA program. So that was compelling, and then they also had a curriculum that was exclusively designed around social responsibility and so how to integrate the ethics of business into business strategy.

B So that was very cool. And then I think later after I'd been there for a while, I realized that Mills attracts, I think, people who are from underrepresented communities. And and the more the longer I was there, the more I saw that. And, you know, it's taken me, like, my whole life to realize, like, I am someone who I'm I'm part of the 1st generation of women in my family to go to college, and I'm, like, the first person in my family to study and practice architecture. But more importantly, I'm, like, the first woman in my family to earn a professional degree or to, earn a master's degree. And so, I found Mills to be a really great community for me because, you know, my educational journey was kind of unique and something that I needed more support, and I needed a community of people that I was working with and not competing against, which some business schools are very competitive.

A Was that community because you were in, like, the equivalent of what most schools deemed the executive MBA, right, where all of the classes were offered nights and weekends. At UCLA, there was, like, this huge divide between the full time students and the FEMBA. And if you ask me what the f stands for right now, I wouldn't be able to tell you. But but there's definitely a different and more competitive feeling with those that were attending full time versus those that were, like, in the workforce and picking up classes in the evening?

B Kind of. I mean, we, you know, we also had a policy group and so more so I saw a split between we had the MPPs is what we called them, and then we also had a group of management students that were coming from an education background. So I felt like the business students really stuck together, and then we kind of got to know the policy and the education folks. I guess there was definitely a working cohort of people who were going to school in the evenings, but there was also a group that were, you know, just full time students. And so but I just felt like our community was very collaborative.

A Yeah. I mean, so the interesting thing with me when I made the move to the Presidio is I literally decided to start all over again. So the curriculum was so different that nothing I did at UCLA was going to transfer over to the Presidio. So what was supposed to be like this 2 year journey turned into 4 with me because I decided to pick up the extra degree and I had to start over after my 1st year. I still have some really great friendships that I maintained coming out of UCLA. And and and I found my husband there. So, so I I don't look back at my time at Anderson either as kind of like this wasted year.

B What classes were some of your favorites or, you know, what which one stood out to you?

A Yeah. I UCLA, I really loved negotiations. It was it was one of the electives I got to take, and I think I talked a little bit about it in the conversation. But at at Presidio, there was actually several classes that I liked. So there all of the work was project based. So there is this one there is this one. And the thing is, I can remember the projects. I can't even remember, like, the class necessarily associated with them, but I remember the projects.

A So, in one project, and I think it was, Econ, actually, where we got to work with Lagunitas, the beer company. He's based out of Petaluma. And they needed to find a way to deal with their wastewater because beer produces a ton of wastewater and their production and their popularity was growing so much that they were hitting limits when it came to getting rid of that. So we, like I think it was literally looking at the economics of like, what could we do with that wastewater? What are partnerships that they could create? What are what, you know, ultimately, we sent it back into this generator's system where it created, like, on-site energy as it was cleaning the wastewater. So so that was a really fun project. And then we had this products and services class where you had to deliver you had to create a product and services from scratch. And we ultimately looked at vertical farming in food deserts or in urban areas where just the access to fresh produce was, was really not realistic. And we looked at like, like literally the idea of repositioning all of these derelict storefronts.

A If you're thinking about like the block busters of the world that were going away and the malls that had become increasingly emptied and, you know, turning them into, like, urban, hydroponic farms. And now that I think about it, there's there's a company called Plant Organics that does exactly that in in Oakland. So so but those were the type of projects that we got to work on. But, what about you? What did you really like about or what was your favorite classes at Mills?

B I definitely had a really great negotiations teacher that I loved. We did it. That actually was a summer audit, I think, or a summer course. So it was compressed, but she did such a great job with teaching us, like, real practice based negotiations. Like, we had assignments, we had to practice with our peers, and we were constantly rotating to practice on different people, and they all had different strengths and, you know, human traits that make negotiations really hard, like if they're more risk averse or less or, collaborative. So I found that really cool and very useful in the real world. And then, of course, I loved my strategy class. That was something I had to wait till the very end to take.

B And, I had an amazing professor, Darcel, who taught us everything she knew about strategic planning, and so we went through this whole deep dive curriculum with her and then ultimately had to write a strategic plan and present it at the end of the semester. But definitely, I remember I think the coursework with peers is such a big part of business school, and working on projects together vividly stands out. Like, the IT project that I did with, couple of my peers where we actually took on, Open Architecture Collaborative as a client and helped them do a technology assessment, needs assessment to figure out, like, what the chapters

A Is that your closer connection with them?

B Yeah. Well, I mean, Garrett and I were friends, and he was at the time, he was launching the Open Architecture Collaborative. And then so I was like, hey. You know, I'm doing classwork. Can we use you as a client? He was like, yeah.

A Absolutely.

B So I helped him with the the needs assessment, and then I also helped him with the business plan early on. Of course, it's evolved, but it was cool to be in on the early part of that that nonprofit. But I guess so that makes me think about, like, you know, a part of our conversation, Evelyn, you were like, I wouldn't recommend a business education to everyone. So who would you recommend it to and, like, where do you think it's most useful in conjunction with an architecture education?

A I mean, don't get me wrong. I, like, I I just think it's because I entered business calls so haphazardly to figure out my path forward. Like, I I I entered it with, like, not knowing my end game in in sites. But I feel like the people that are going to really excel at the curriculum in business school are more the individuals that tend to geek out operationally than than those that are design minded. And I would say, like, for all of those creators out there that are really looking to, like, launch, like, have an idea for a specific product and service. Like it's products and services was one class that I had in business school. But even as I look at what I'm trying to do with of architecture, you know, I've taken on a business coach who specializes in kind of online delivery, and growing and growing an audience. And none of that stuff is what you're going to learn in business school.

A So I just wanted to be realistic about, like, what you actually learn and the type of people who kind of really get excited about that versus there's there's other ways to build a business that doesn't necessarily involve business school.

B That's true. I mean, I know a lot of architects who didn't go to business school and they run some of the largest firms in the country. So you don't necessarily need a business education to be savvy on business. However, I do think, going through the education, it really opened my eyes to an additional layer of thinking that I think you could gain over time, but getting such deep immersion into it really, you know, got me there a lot faster

A know, if I'm a person that's kinda deciding, do I do I pursue my MBA, or do I not pursue my MBA, Kinda introspectively, what are the questions that you have them ask back of themselves about their path forward to to help them with that decision making process?

B That's a really good question and an important one for anyone considering, investing this type of money in an education. First of all, I think you said it in the interview, but that's to get really clear about why you want it. I think also touring a lot of schools is really important because you wanna find a school that aligns with what you're trying to get out of the program. Because if you don't have that alignment, I think you're gonna be, you know, maybe spinning your wheels a little bit trying to figure that part out. Whereas if you go in knowing it, you're gonna get a lot more out of the program. And then 3rd, I just think if you inherently have an interest in business, like, if you get excited about the mechanics of business and the, creative thinking around business strategy or, you know, finance or operations or whatever it is, then I think it's worth investigating. If you're somebody who just wants an MBA because you think an MBA sounds cool, I wouldn't recommend it. I think it has to be deeper than that.

B But you know what's funny, Evelyn, is even though you you said you didn't have a plan, like, the MBA is really well suited for your brain. Like, it it actually is probably very much where you needed to go because that's exactly how you think naturally.

A I think I was a little bit lucky though in that in that regard. But I mean, there's some there's definitely some classes I like like, I barely made it through, like, accounting. I had no no interest that I had absolutely no interest in.

B Would you do it again?

A I would do it. I mean, I would there is I'm one of those people who who I'm grateful for. I am happy where I've landed in my life, and I'm grateful for whatever whatever path that got me to here. But I guess what I would say is that my MBA did not get my job in tech. And I actually when I graduated in 2012, right, on the up, it was it was really hard, not only to it was still kind of hard to find a job in architecture, but also anywhere for that matter. And and there was really like, there was this mindset that there that I was just like, you know, I would have been better off the last 4 years getting real world experience somewhere else. And it would have been a much easier transition architecture. By the way, I appended this is 3, 6 letters after my name if you include the dual masters.

A And all of a sudden, trying to help people people outside of the profession still, 1, understand what architects do, but 2, how to leverage the MBA and the MPA on top of that. So so it didn't open all the doors. Similar in the way that architects when you graduate from an architecture degree that says you can you can go do anything with your architecture degree. No, because most people don't understand what architects do, But it didn't the MBA and the MPA in and of itself didn't like suddenly, like have doors flying open either. So just just know that, like, just know that on the other end.

B That's true. I mean, like, I think if I was gonna get a return on my investment, like the most profitable direction would be to leave architecture. But I think I'm really thinking about this as a slow burn that the investment will be recouped over the long run to speak in business terms. And the longer I can stay in the game. And I and in many ways, I feel like my work is to educate, and I think that's why I get so excited about this podcast because I feel like we are here to educate our audience and our listeners to expand the way they're thinking. And so, you know, I feel like we're putting down the foundation for that work as the industry continues to change. And, hopefully, in the long run, we'll be well positioned to be leaders in that area. So as

A you mentioned that, Janine, we are nearing the end of our 3rd season and already planning for season 4 after the new year's. So if there are any topics out there that our listeners would like us to cover in the next season, please reach out to us, via social through the website at practiceofarchitecture.com. Or if you're on our newsletter, sign up and hit reply. We send a newsletter out every Friday. But let us know what you would like to hear more about. And and if you are actually learning anything from these episodes, we we don't know unless we hear from our listeners, and we are super appreciative of those days when we do hear from you. So on that note, thank you for listening and tune in next week. Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph.

A Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

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