Architecture, And: Technology

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hey, Evelyn. Hey, disruptors. Today's guest was a speaker at Monographs Conference Section Cut in 2021. I was so impressed with his research into learning and teaching cultures that I wanted to invite him on the show to have a follow-up conversation so we can dive a little deeper. We're also going to be discussing his career from architecture into tech and his current role as a chief technology officer.

A Speaking of SectionCut, SectionCut is back on for March 8 through 10, 2022. Registration is free. We will drop that link in our show notes. And, Janine, you and I will both be there.

B That's right. And we wanna give a shout out to Monograph who's hosting this great conference, and we were so energized by the event last year that we wanna encourage you all to sign up. If you're interested in transforming the practice of architecture or making positive change in your firm, this is the event for you. Come join a lot of people who are interested in those same things by going to sectioncut.com to hear from a dynamic lineup of speakers.

A Now for our guests, Leivo Li is CTO at Catalyst DI where he's working to design solutions to seamlessly integrate the construction supply chain. Lee Bo is going to explain what that means and what it means to build a data driven culture.

B Our technology and culture episodes are some of our most downloaded episodes in the series. So I know this is gonna be a great conversation that bridges those two themes. We'll be illustrating the importance of culture and practice operations, specifically, Libo's research into organizational systems that support learning. So let's jump into it. Libo, why

A don't you kick off this discussion by introducing yourself to our listeners, who you are, and why you're passionate about architecture and technology?

C Thank you, Evelyn. Thank you all so much for for inviting me. I'm Libo, and I think, you know, it's it's a little bit of a weird path that I got here, but I think connecting the dots. In retrospect, after everything makes sense is, you know, my uncle was an architect when I was growing up in China. I think a lot of my early interest, started there with, you know, some of the presence he brought me, some of the ways that he kind of influenced, the way I thought whenever, I was able to visit him over the holidays. And, when I moved to the US, and moved to Queens, I remember kind of in the early days of quote, unquote, the Internet, right, when everyone had AOL CDs. And I figured out how to, like, install AOL on Skype, and then my neighbors figured out that I knew that. So they asked me to install for them.

C And, you know, that first, video chat, and I just saw, like, the wife just crying, seeing her parents, and it was just a really, magical moment where you really saw, like, technology, even in its most basic form, can can really help people and really make a huge difference. And then, you know, I just kinda screwed around for a while until, luckily, I got into Rice, went to architecture school where I think I really honed in on that passion for architecture. And I think as you guys know and talk about a lot, working in architecture is a lot less romantic than learning architecture. So I think that's what drew me to, kinda crossover to tech at WeWork, but also kinda continue down that path because I think, you know, with tech organizations, you kinda get a much better sense of how an organization needs to iterate and improve to to kinda survive in in the modern ecosystem.

B You know, we've had other ex WeWorkers on, but I think you're one of the few that currently serves in the role of CTO. So we're excited because you you're gonna offer a unique perspective from that angle, from jumping from architecture and then applying it into that type of position. I think the question on our our minds is, how does an architecture education prepare someone for a career in technology? And then what is it from those skills that you're actually applying and taking into this role?

C So so that's a tough one. Again, kinda kinda think that's in retrospect and really still trying to figure out exactly, like, what what makes this transition successful. But I think I was really lucky to to be at Rice in a in a quite quite a special time. We had a new dean. It was an, you know, a really big ideas pool of kind of transitioning ideas. So a lot of old school and new school in terms of, finding each other. And, you know, I was super dumb, didn't take advantage of it. But I think being exposed to that broad spectrum of ideas was really important.

C Being able to work with, kind of these professors who have these really, I guess, formula perspectives kind of chisel at your stuff day after day, studio after studio and seeing how their process of idea refinement, really works. And I think that's now my current, I guess, big thing is that design education kind of really builds an intuition for gaming out, a lot of these scenarios, especially, I think, where I am now, in a management position where a lot of the parameters aren't that well defined, in most cases ambiguous to really be able to kind of intuit and pattern match across all of these decision making points that I encounter.

A You kind of alluded to it, but I'd like you to describe to our listeners what a CTO actually does only because so many people approach me having moved from arc architecture tech to technology, but I'm literally in in the Roos organization. And everyone wants to go into UX. Right? Like, that is, like, the move to make from architecture with the design backgrounds, specifically. So can we talk a little bit about actually what a CTO does and the skills that your architecture training brings to to that role?

C Tough, tough questions. I think, you know, defining the CTO role is is also, I guess, not that clean up a proposition, I think it definitely changes during the different life stages of a company, but also as depending on I guess, what the other skill sets of the executive team looks like. I think I catalyst my my role is broadly overall kind of bringing the technical insights into the overall company vision, overall company strategy from a from a broad perspective, but kind of operationally, I'm in charge of kind of both product and engineering, making sure that, you know, we build a a cohesive working ecosystem that would lead to a cohesive product. I think the the one quote I always beat to death is that was it the the systems that build systems, like, build system that look like a a a reflection of the structures of that system. So I think in in tech, it's in my position, it's very much the same way. It's like, it's not so much as what the technology is, but how to build a team to build the technology in the right way to to think comprehensively and to really make sure that our product is good and our technology is too organic. Good.

A And then, I guess, the second part of that is, you know, having that background in architecture, what do you take from that background beyond the fact that Catalyst is directly related to the construction industry? Do you use some of those skills, maybe problem solving or in in your role as a CTO?

C I think one of the big ones is, the ability to think in different time scales. Also, kind of the the ability to dive into new topics and kind of surface, kind of conceptual patterns in those topics. I find in my job, a lot of what I do is kind of pattern match, like, what's appropriate for us today, what's appropriate for us in the midterm, what's appropriate for long term, and how do we then build continuity across all of those operational patterns to get there. So I think the 2 things from architecture that have really honed honed me in on that are are those 2.

B Yeah. I think maybe we should dive into talking about what Catalyst DI is and what you guys are trying to solve. And then we'll I'd love to go back and talk about technology as a disruptive driver for change.

C Absolutely. So we're we're still working on this, so definitely a feedback welcome. At Catalyst, we're we're really all about arming folks with, like, the right tools and the right workflows to build repeatability and efficiency, in construction programs. As you guys probably know, right, like, the majority consensus in industry is thinking about construction projects at 0 to 1 endeavors, you always kind of start over, deliver, start over deliver, but really, especially in these large construction programs, there's a lot of repeatability and a lot of scale efficiencies that that you can achieve. So our thesis is that what it really takes is reducing friction and integrating supply chain signals across kind of decision making touch points all across that life cycle. So planning, design, execution. If everyone's making decisions on better data, we we get a better end product as a as a as an aggregate. So we we think there's a big barrier because it's just so hard for know, companies to prioritize their their construction components.

C So by, creating, low friction tools and a, you know, repeatable workflow, we can then guide the industry overall towards this future of repeatable parts and and, you know, more, deeper interproject analysis through, these repeatable components.

A Who are your primary clients then? Are you looking at owners? Are you looking at, you know, larger general contractors?

C At at our stage right now, we're looking primarily at, large owners. They're the ones who have the most value from a repeatable scaled approach to, construction programs. And they're also the ones that can really drive the most change because they're they're kind of the most upstream from a lot of these changes. So I think by servicing these decision making, what we call action intelligence to decision makers at at the top level, it starts to spin that wheel that, can move the industry.

B Yeah. That reminds me when we talk to Brian who's at Boston Dynamics. He's he's trying to implement technology, on the construction site. And, yeah, to implement this level of change, it takes going to the big fish, to the, you know, the GC world, the the owners, the developers who have the money to support the technology. I know you guys are trying to figure out how this how to implement this into real projects. So have you guys had success in terms of adapting it with different projects or clients?

C So so what we like to say is, everything we do, you can do today, it just is a huge pain to do it manually. So that's a lot of kind of what we're currently doing in house is manually doing this analysis, doing this work, doing this data collection data organization on behalf of our customers and servicing these insights. What we're doing is, you know, understanding this wide diversity of sort of data access patterns that customers need to then translate into more automation, more facilitated workflows through our software ecosystem.

B Mhmm. So, basically, what I'm hearing is, like, you guys are kind of aggregating the research around this that and I see this in my work too that there are the themes that show up across projects and project types and organizations that repeat. And so I'm seeing it more as, like, the data and is helping you guys inform the research on how you're designing the product and the and the tools. Do you wanna come back to this question? I I think about how much technology has changed everything, and I think there's some people that see it as disruptive. I think some people embrace it, but I definitely think it has been a driver of change in the architecture industry. So I'm curious your thoughts on that.

C It's tough. It's definitely hard to point to, I think, any any one thing, but, you know, it's technology is just changing everything up, up and downstream from from where we are. I think that, you know, perhaps feeds into, you know, part of part of our approach that's much more focused on data, rather than any sort of particular, I guess, horizontal, because we kind of see technology creating a big reshuffle in in how the industry is organized, how that shakes out. No one knows, but I think everyone knows that it's coming. I guess no no real answer for you there, but a lot of, I'm worried and I'm thinking about it.

A So a follow-up for me to that question then is as an as an architect, as a practitioner hearing about Catalyst DI, like, what what should I understand about what Catalyst DI might do for my practice, or at least should I should be aware about in terms of of the shift that it might create, especially as you're positioning to go after owners?

C Absolutely. That's a great question. I think, you know, maybe beyond beyond just just architects, like, I think everyone who who is an information user in in construction should kind of ask, like, what information am I communicating upstream, and what information am I communicating downstream? And how does that affect the decisions at work that happened before and after me? I think from an architect perspective, there there's a lot of frustrations, in terms of information reconciliation between architects and owners, architects and partners. And if we kind of, you know, dig into each of those situations, we often find that there is some sort of mechanism that's not working to build agreement between those two parties on exactly what is happening. So that's a big part of what we're trying to help is that create those mechanisms for this better, more detailed, higher fidelity agreement between parties. So I

B feel like we're gonna take a pretty hard jump off of the technology conversation into our cultural piece. So just in preparing our listeners. But when I heard you speak at Section Cut, you were really talking more about organizational systems, which leads into communication structures and learning cultures. So maybe you can help us make the leap into that conversation. What pulled you from technology into that conversation? And then I'd love to hear maybe just your intro on that research.

C So so I wouldn't really call it research. Definitely not not as rigorous as you know, real researchers. I hope they don't take offense to that. I think for me, it's it's almost the same thing. I think for us building technology in a way, without really great patterns out there to directly follow. It does take a really adaptive and a really sensitive learning culture to to kinda get there. One thing that, the CEO and I talk a lot about is, like, we we don't know what we don't know, and the best way to combat that is to get really good at knowing what you don't know and then trying to close those gaps.

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C I guess the major idea is everyone should learn to code. But the supporting idea is that I've been, you know, in my pretty short career across a lot of different organizations. And I think the ones that I feel most attracted to and the one that I feel is the most productive are, you know, these very adaptive organizations since ones that can sort of morph and shift and continue to survive in a changing ecosystem, but really critically self question their own process and their own ways of collaboration as they're doing it.

A I feel like Janine and I have been talking about the need for architecture firms to be more adaptive systems. What enabled you to create this mindset, this drive, you know, for continual adaptation? And what and why do you think architects tend to get stuck in this rut of, we we've always done it that way, so that's the way we're going to continue to do that. Alternatively, the question could be, how can how can we shift the mindset of the architects to think more about the need for adaptive systems?

C That's super tough. I mean, any any question was, I guess, like, changing culture and changing mindsets, I guess, never, for me never has like a, like a truly direct answer. I think, in my experience, a lot of it is kind of thinking from a sort of evolutionary perspective, like everything is kind of in a constant cycle of change. History has sort of shown us that doing the same thing over and over again, there is an eventual endpoint where something else will will come. And I think it's it's about the sensitivity and the recognition of when that happens. A lot of times, it feels like it's a lot further than than it seems for for a lot of folks in in architecture, because just the the timescales are are so long for for a lot of what we do, and so much of it has been preserved for so long. But I think when I went into architecture, that inflection point seemed to me a lot closer than than what a lot of other people felt, which prompted me to make the change in the adaptation, maybe perhaps that perspective isn't isn't shared, and that's why there's not as much of a of a fear of not surviving into the next world in in our industry.

A I do think, at least in the Bay Area, you know, that where there's a extreme competition for talent, that there are there are local firms in the that firms with the local AIA comp components are saying, you know, we are no longer competing just with other architecture firms. We are competing against all of these technology firms. So I'm hoping, if anything, that pushes some architects to kind of rethink their offerings and how they're doing things to to re attract the the talent back to traditional practice.

C Totally. And, also, like, you know, as as I've gone through these companies, there's a lot of people really interested in in architecture. Like, why can't architecture firms attract talent from other industries?

A Absolutely. I don't think they would know what to do with them right now. Absolutely.

C Right. That's that's part of the problem. I think, you know, we like our teacher firms kind of like put horse blinders on and try to narrow them themselves, more and more when, you know, there's just probably a lot to be gained from opening up a little bit and learning from, other industries and other people.

B Yeah. I think that's a fair point. You know, I think the rigorous nature of our education, like, limits, you know, how we view people coming into the industry. Like, oh, you haven't you haven't gotten a special degree and you haven't suffered through studio. So, what do you know about being an architect? But I agree. I think there's a lot to be learned by broadening our our collaboration with other thought leaders out there. You know, we'll link the presentation that you did at SectionCut in the show notes, but what I found really interesting about your perspective is, you know, you were talking about data, and you just said it that you saw that the technology piece and the cultural piece, like, were 1 in the same. And I and I saw you diagramming visually these elements of organizational frameworks and systems that are, essentially, people.

B I mean, it can be data. It can be people, But it's about the connection that you saw between these different networks coming together and how different variations of that structure can result in different learning cultures. So I'm curious. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about the learning cultures that you see supporting growth and and positive contributions towards creating, be it a product in technology or a building that you're building on a construction site?

C So I think if I remember the the graphic correctly, it's like a series of dots with like lines between them. Right? And I think my whole point was that with that diagram is like most, organizations that are really frustrating to to work in, look like it's a bunch of scattered dots, and they're all have, like, 1 or 2 connections, but directly to each other. So any, you know, point to point interaction, it usually is like a long game of telephone, right? You get a ton of email chains, you get, you know, 9 people in the same meeting being like, oh, well, why are we invited this meeting? Okay. This person called it what's going on. What should we do? One that, especially enabled with technology that could look much better is one where these individual bubbles are connected to, functional systems that are these central sources of truth for whatever, action they're performing. And these functional systems talk to each other in very protocol ways that sort of enforce the best practice structures of the business. What this should do is, take all those, point to point connections that weren't contributing to person to person kinda get to know, like, you know, mentorship, learning from each other and really portion that time for those interactions and, really reduce the amount of effort it takes to do, you know, your everyday task tracking, what's going on in the business and relegate those to the plethora of really good business systems that, you know, exist today.

B Yeah. I mean, when I saw that presentation, I really saw your architectural training coming to life in the way you were talking because I think we go through this rigorous process of learning about diagramming and seeing these patterns. And what I saw you do is take that same approach, which most people who are trying to become architects would apply towards programmatic constraints to think about a building, but you took it and applied it to systems thinking in operations and in terms of idea development for technology. And so that's how I saw your training showing up. And, yeah, maybe other people do that too. I don't know. Maybe it's a part of technology culture to do that, but I I found it really inspiring, and I think a lot of people really enjoyed your talk. I think what you had to offer was really interesting and compelling and made me pause to really think about those systems and, as you're defining it, parallels to technology, culture and technology not being dissimilar.

C Maybe maybe on that diagram point, I think that's a that's a really good connection. Definitely, thinking through diagram was one of the things that Rice architecture really pound into my head. And it holds true in in the ways that we talk about, you know, user access patterns, like UX flows, even like, you know, architecture diagrams, it's all just like bubbles and lines. And if you just can think in bubbles and lines and put different things in those bubbles, like it all works. So

A Yeah. No. I was so, you know, Catalyst dot ai is a relatively young organization, and you're obviously on the executive leadership team. So, you know, how are you taking those thoughts and learnings to to the development of of the culture of Catalyst? And can you tell us, especially in this hybrid world, you know, it I believe you're a highly distributed team too. So how are you managing building that culture in in a very distributed way?

C Way? I think we're we're managing is this best way to put it. We think we're doing a adequate job, but, we're we're not doing the the best job. We know we know we can. We're a fairly distributed team. So we're remote first. There's people on both sides of the country actually work Eastern hours on the West Coast, which is super fun. But part of being remote, I think, is having really good communication systems and good communication practice, something that we repeatedly try to work on and try to ingrain our culture. How do you communicate asynchronously? How do you communicate clearly? How do you get people aligned at the right levels, to make sure everyone's pointing the same direction? How do you make sure that when effort is being spent, especially at this early stage when, you know, every hour of everyone's time, you know, really matters.

C How do you make sure that people, you know, feel like they're spending time on things that they're passionate about that bring value to the company that ultimately isn't something that both from a organization from an executive standpoint, we're like, why are you doing that? But also from the person's standpoint, it's like, well, I thought this was what brought value to the company, or you made me do this. Right? So a lot of those things are are things we're just, you know, working through on a case by case basis mostly, but, you know, our North Star is, in a way clear to us, right, what good look like looks like is clear to us, and we're just trying to get there. There's no there's no magic bullet. But I think there's just a lot of different techniques and frameworks and ways of talking about things that help in in different situations.

B It's interesting to hear you say that. I was doing this talk with AIA Colorado yesterday and their leaders that are coming into the organization we were talking about. What does it take to be a leader in 2022 when the rules are all different. And I think what you're talking about is exactly what it takes, like, knowing what your north star is, knowing, like, the direction of the change that you're trying to work towards. And it's it's normal you don't have a road map right now. Most people don't for what's going on. And then but knowing your mission and your vision and the direction you're trying to move, you you build the road map towards that direction. So thank you for illustrating that.

B I wanna ask about cultural frameworks because I think this was a key point that you were talking about for building adaptive organizations. So what themes contrast in organizations that are adaptive versus stagnant?

C So cultural frameworks on the first one, the one that has really resonated with us recently is, like, is the Netflix culture. No rules rules. It's a great book. Definitely recommend the read. It's it's pretty hardcore, but it drives at some some really, hard truths on, you know, how hard it is to build an organization that's continuously innovative, that's continuously resilient against, you know, such dramatic market changes and market forces. So I think for me, the difference between an adaptive and a segment organization is going back to kind of that that North Star is, is understanding where that North Star is and how it responds to the world changing. I think adaptive organizations will always see a point in the future where they're like, okay. Like, that's that's us thriving in the future.

C We need to get to thrive in the future. Whereas, like, a stagnant organization will will kind of look at what they're doing. And they'll be like, you know, this is this is good enough. And this will be good enough for the next, you know, 10 to 20 years. So why why fix what ain't broke? And I think, you know, as people working in organizations, it's very easy to tell, when your organization is one way or the other.

A Do you practice radical candor then, like Netflix? Because I feel like that's part of, like, the most hardcore. And also, I think it's it's really tough. I mean, maybe people coming from the architecture world is used to, like, those type of critiques.

C You try to do that. That's that's one of the principles we're trying to strive toward. But no, absolutely right. Architecture school does help you deal with that. Right? Like, no other training really slogs you through loving your idea for 6 months and then having so much shit all over it over and over again. Right. But I think at the same time, right. It's, it's really important for, for a company, especially, early stage startup to, to be brutally, brutally honest with each other and really understand truthfully, the distance between you right now where you need to be.

C On the executive team, we have a spreadsheet that's like, you can't you can't build a successful startup line to yourself. And it's just us lifting out all the deficiencies kind of we we need to overcome and and, the gaps we need to close to, you know, be the the right leadership team to to be respectful of this opportunity and be respectful to to our team.

A I mean, I guess, like, the the follow-up question there is because because you jumped in, and thank you for jumping in, is I think radical candor is necessary, but it's also, like, really hard. It's all about having tough conversations. So, you know, some startups tend to hire people with a certain level of experience to really get going really fast. But how how do you kind of warm up and prepare people that are not used to being in that environment to that like, for that radical candor and that transparency?

C That's a tough one. When you figure it out, Because that's that's definitely been been a growing pain, I think, as as a part of, especially, you know, a startup in in construction dealing with such a such a specialized, vertical is that there is a growing pain for our company to, you know, get into what, you know, startups would expect as startup culture, how we close that gap. We're still working on it. But it's it's a, it's a conscious thing that we're constantly tackling. So I think it goes back to that culture building point where we have a North star and, you know, we're just whacking at it any way we can.

B It's nice to hear that you guys are assessing for the gaps. And I think a lot of people who get stuck, they struggle with confronting their limitations or even their failures. But it is, I think, refreshing to hear that you guys are taking a really honest look at those areas that you perceive as deficiencies, whether they are or they aren't. I don't know. It just makes me think about, like, the flexibility, you know, when I think about startup culture and, like, the way that I perceive that people need to lead in this, like, uncertain world, flexibility, adaptability, hard, difficult conversations. You know, one of the things that I think people are really struggling with right now is overwhelm with all this change. And I'm curious, you know, this is kind of a question for both of you because you both work at technology focused companies, which would infuse a culture being comfortable with change and adaption. So with so much change happening and so many variables, like, how do you guys deal with the feelings of overwhelm that come up, or how do you keep pace with the change that's coming forward from so much technology changing?

A I think it's back to how you build the culture. Right? One of the first things that I remember my hiring manager at Slack asking me about was just my ability to deal with ambiguity, and how do you work through that ambiguity, and being okay with it. And if you think about it, architects actually work through a lot of ambiguity in project development. Right? Like, the the owners give them kind of what they want. But, like, architects, in a way, they kind of have to investigate further. Like, okay. Is the owner telling me what they need versus what they want? And, usually, people are telling you what they want. Right? And then there's, like, so many other parameters that you actually have to figure out and and work through and then hope that when you present those scenarios to the owners that you've kind of hit it on its head.

A So so for me, it's it wasn't anything new. But for whatever reason, I feel like the architecture world, we take all this creativity in our projects, and we have such a hard time applying that to business systems and business operations. Yet, like, we are we are operating through that ambiguity all the time. We are operating with, like, a quarter of the information that we need to get to the end products. Okay? So how do you kind of take that mindset and apply it to to practice? And I think what technology firms do well is, like, they just acknowledge that they're constantly operating in ambiguity. You know? Whether you're new to the industry or whether you've been in this industry for, like, 30 years, for multiple decades, you know, they're always looking out. They're they're never settling because they know if they settle, they're gonna lose out to their competitor. So so the there's that constant push to continue to adapt the practice as well.

C I think the the point you made about operating on on partial information, I think I think that's huge. You know, the way the way I look at it is, like, you're you're always maybe in having the same partial understanding, but the pie is getting bigger. And you'll, you know, keep leveraging, you know, more sophisticated tools, but, you know, your view of the bigger pies might might always stay the same, and you might always need to operate in that mode. And I think another thing that architecture really teaches us, is, you know, how you learn and learn fast dealing with new situations, new new typologies, new customers, new information, new locales, right, it does force you to build that skill. And for me, that's a big part of dealing with with a pace of change is I think a lot of well, I don't wanna say a lot of folks, but sometimes people get into operating at velocity. And for whatever reason, they they kind of just get get stuck on that. And it gets overwhelming because the world is, you know, moving faster, and you're just moving at the same speed, it's gonna only gonna get worse and worse. I think a lot of, especially in tech, I think a lot of the books that get floated around, the articles get floated around, I'm really encouraging you to look at accelerating your ability to operate kind of in this world, whether that's, you know, learning new technologies, learning new techniques, or like even building fundamentals, like being able to read faster, or, like, typing faster.

C All of these things kind of contribute to how you can accelerate your ability to deal with this growing information ecosystem.

A It also, for me, goes back to the business plan and the business model. Right? If if we bill out on an hourly basis, like, what is the incentive in our industry to accelerate any of that?

C Yeah. I think, you know, at a at a point when everything thing is changing, like, being, I guess, attached to that business model seems kinda silly, you know, but should be more firms trying something new.

A Janine and I are sitting here nodding our heads, of course.

B We we totally agree. You know, I just it's so helpful to get different perspectives on this because I I'm constantly trying to figure out, like, what's the argument on how to change this behavior, and I think it's a lot of different things. So it's nice it's nice to hear your perspective on this. We're starting this thing that we with the new season that, we wanna ask our guests, for one main idea or lesson on change that you think is needed in the practice of architecture that you wanna pass forward. And this would go for architects, emerging professionals, and industry disruptors who are listening. So what what idea is that for you?

C So my go to is always learn to code, but I came up with a better one for you guys. I think, reflecting on, I guess, my experience in the architecture culture is that there there seems to be, like, a threshold beyond which architects aren't willing to go past. I think, an indicator of that is for me is, like, how many architects wanna go into UX? Like, there's so much crazy shit you can do in tech. Like, why are you so stuck on doing UX? Right? Like and that for me is like, what what is putting that barrier in front of you where when you step out, you can only step out into that kind of contained territory. And I really encourage everyone to kind of like lean much deeper into going down that rabbit hole and learning something. We live probably in the best time in terms of information availability, and just how many people are trying all sorts of silly things to get you to learn something. And And we're just sitting here refusing to learn. So I mean, that would be my my one thing.

B I'm also curious, because I'm sure there's somebody out there listening who would love to go into tech, and they might be sitting in an architecture firm right now going, I have no idea how to make this jump. So what's your advice to them? And if they have aspirations to become a CTO, what would you recommend?

C It's definitely, think about putting in the work. So a lot of things don't come easy. And while you're working on it, the answer might not readily present itself. Like, I guess, a lot of what I was thinking is, like, you know, a lot of things connect in retrospect, but while you're doing it, and while you're in the thick of it, you never know how things are gonna turn out. So be prepared to go down a lot of roads that might not have very nice things at the end of it. But that learning experience is ultimately I think what what builds a comfort of what your role at what your identity in tech could be. I think a lot of architects that that we've architecture deal with kind of a an identity crisis almost where, you know, they've attached so much of their personal identity to that that finding kind of another label is is a need next step, but, really, it's just a part of that journey. And I think more people can let themselves be on that journey rather than, you know, trying to be at the end of it too quickly,

A the better.

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B Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast.

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B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablemedia.com.

A Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.