Architecture And: The Future of Workplace

A This episode is sponsored by Monograph and Arc IT. You'll hear more about them later on in the episode. I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain.

B We're collaborating on industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. So we are continuing our architecture and series and exploring the tech industry again. And before you roll your eyes at me, what I ultimately hope that our listeners get out of these conversations is is twofold.

A One, that the path for architects within technology is pretty limitless and doesn't stop with just UX. And I would argue that the path for architects within other industries are also pretty limitless, and there's greater opportunity out there if you explore. And 2, specifically with Kanoa and our next guest, Federico, that there are opportunities to rethink design within the built environment and how we have always done things.

C What I will say about our guest today, Federico, is that he has been name dropped on our podcast a few times, and he has made his way through different career pivot points where he went from architecture into net technology, kind of looking at both sides of those career paths and how they interact and merge. And he has taken what he's learned and shifted, away from being in what he describes as disrupting the industry to taking ownership of his projects to be a force of change in the work that he's creating. So we're excited to learn more about the work that he's doing now and some of his career steps forward into this point. So, Federico, welcome to the show. We're gonna pass it off to you to introduce yourself.

D Well, thank you to the both of you for having me. That's a pretty flattering introduction. I'm super happy to be here. The the short version of my introduction is I'm I'm Federico. I'm an architect by training. I am the founder and CEO of a company called Kanoa, which we'll sort of dive into, I'm sure, later on. It's funny. You guys describe my career as a sort of series of, like, pivots and shifts.

D I I see it quite linearly looking back, which maybe is part of the reason what makes me, makes, I think, my story a little bit different. But anyhoo, very happy to be here, and sort of dive into all of this with with the both of you.

C I think that the reason I see it as pivots is just that you seemed attracted towards career steps that were kinda outside the norm, maybe, for how a lot of architects were practicing 10 years ago. And I would say that you took risks within the steps that you took even if they were linear and aligned to the profession in some way. Maybe we should talk about a couple of those steps. So first, starting off at shop and then jumping into, your next, let's say, jump, not pivot.

D Yeah. So I started my, career at Shop Architects. I graduated in 2,004 from, Parsons with my master of architecture at the time. Corey and Bill, Sharpless were both professors, at Parsons. There was a wonderful community of of, what I would call sort of like early career practitioners, at at Parsons at the time, and I got to take a couple of their courses and then eventually sort of join join the company. So I started working with them. In my in my last year, throughout that last year, oddly enough, building a lot of their furniture in their office, and now I'm in I'm back in furniture again. So I started there and, you know, saw, from 2,004 through 2,008, at the at the first crash, 1st sort of big recession in in in my career that I've seen, there was this explosion of work, especially in New York, and and and Schaub really got to ride that wave.

D A lot of that was in in condo work and and and, high end residential, and then expanded into other things, of course, like institutional and even work with the city with the East River. So I got, you know, to to experience a lot of that early on. It was it was it was pretty amazing. And at the time, we we were talking a lot about, how, you know, and and I do credit, you know, shop and the partners there for a lot of this talk, but they they were really trying to figure out ways to to change a little bit the the business model. Arguably, they they probably didn't, to a degree. I think they they win a lot of business in the way that they they practice. But they, you know, they were trying to expand into development. They were trying to expand into construction, and one of the areas we're trying to expand into was was technology.

D In 2,008, as the crash was be beginning, if you will, a lot of a lot of business for a lot of architects started to go on hold. A lot of people, you know, just a lot of banks, obviously, where most of the money comes in for for development, where where, where effectively, you know, stopped in their tracks. And so, Dave, which I know you you've had on the podcast before, and Steve and myself who were inside, we we we decided, you know, we wanted to take the leap and and, and jump into, you know, pure technology consulting at the time. And so we we took it as an opportunity, we, you know, we used to say that, like, while their industry was sort of had been, like, super, awash with work and billable hours for a decade, they hadn't really made investments in in modernizing at all. And so we saw that as an opportunity for us to say, okay, while everybody is kinda like slamming the brakes and even going into reverse, can we just, you know, go full speed ahead as, like, this is about 3 person company? And so that was that was really our approach from day 1 is to say, can we help people? Can we help businesses, you know, in architecture, in design, you know, use technology better to be able to to to reinvent themselves, to be able to, you know, do better work, to be able to, you know, hire better talent, all of these kinds of things. And so we were obviously young and super excited, and we thought we were going to change the world. You know, but it it worked convincing enough people to give us small $10,000 contracts was was enough to get us out of the gate. And that's, you know, and that's how, how Case started.

D We, we didn't really see ourselves as, we got this all the time. You know, a lot of friends and people were they're like, oh, you're leaving design, you know, how could you leave shop and this and that. And we we always we we never saw it that way. We never saw it as leaving design. We saw it as leaving practice, which is different. And and it really was this sort of, like, handheld way or like structured way in which practice is is is, you know, culturally and legally meant to meant to function. And so for us, it was like, look, we we we even saw it, you know, with with high highly specialized consultants, like, acquisitions or lighting designers, or even the engineers, they felt freer than we did. And so we're like, well, we wanna do that.

D We wanna be able to sell other things, and do other kinda cool work. And so we we saw, actually, the removal of the term market side as as kind of a freeing public proposition, if you will.

A You know, most people, when they think about starting something new from an architecture firm, the I think the default is let's go start our own firm. Not like let's start this specialty service that is actually consulting to architecture firms, which are notoriously known for, like, not paying consultants. Where does that like, historically, where does that entrepreneurial spirit stem from for you?

D That's a really good question. I I don't know. I think that I think Dave and I always had this sort of itch. We had, we had, we, there was always something we were kind of plotting. Like, even internally at shop, we had, like, you know, this, like, design technology group. And, like, even though the company, you know, by when I started with small, but by the by the time we left, it was it was probably like just under a 100 people, which which for for shop at that time was, you know, enormous. They're not they're much bigger now. But, you know, even within that group, we were like, oh, let's start a technology group, and let's start this, and let's start that.

D There was always this this Dave was this this amazing person who was, like, you know, the first person to kinda drop everything and help people to, like, you know, workshop something, or, or troubleshoot some software, or teach people, or, or any of that. And so I think a lot of, a lot of the, I think the early, spirit of case was to, was to just try to like cast a wider net, if he will sort of be bigger in a way, talk to more people, get to work with more amazing people, you know, including shop. And so, I don't know. Maybe, maybe, maybe part of this credit is, is maybe to a degree of our upbringing, both Dave and I. I was born in Latin America. And so I immigrated into this country. Dave, Dave is, you know, heritage is, he's Cuban American. He's from South Miami.

D Maybe, maybe as sort of immigrants, we, we kind of always felt that, like, anything was possible. And so, like, part of our responsibility is to just kind of go out and get it. This sort of like staying in our lane thing was just, was not, was not our thing in a way.

C I kind of wonder, like, the fact that you both ended up at shop. Like, does a culture like shop and I know maybe we need to separate the culture that is at shop now versus at shop previously. But a culture like shop that is is trying to create innovation, like, does that attract people that think like that, or does it foster people who think like that? Or I don't know. It's kind of like chicken and the egg. What came first? Like, how did that, how did that produce people who wanted to go out and rethink the industry?

D It was a really exciting place to be at the time. You know, you looked around and every architect that was doing anything was like, this, this was the age of like the, the golden age, if you will, of this architect. It's kind of like fiddle or like fizzled away at this point. Right. And now it even has, you know, very sort of negative undertones. And at the time it was like you looked around and it was, it was all very much owned by the, you know, the boomer generation. And so you had a handful of American studios that were smaller, that were younger, that were trying to look at things, I think, in a little bit of a different way and very sort of founded on this idea that that one of their main differentiators was going to be technology, but also this idea that you didn't have to be, you didn't have to wait until you were like, well into your sixties to be, to, you know, to be successful. And so they were trying different things and you got to give them a lot of credit for that.

D You know, I think Greg and Bill and Corey, all 3 of them, in very different ways, you got to give them credit for, for trying lots of different things. And I think attracting a lot of talent that, you know, if you look at it now, even the people who are, you know, let's say, aside from the people who are still there, because they they still have many people there from from from when I was there. But they've spawned a lot of other companies as well. Right? Like, a lot of people that have left shopped over the years have have not gone on to do, all kinds of amazing things, including in design. So I I think I think it's a, like, a culturally significant moment for sure. And they were really talking about architecture in a, in a really different way. And I will give Corey a lot of this, this, this credit, probably above all, they, they always talked about architecture as a very valuable thing. Design is a very valuable thing.

D And never as this sort of like, you know, thing that has to happen that people shouldn't get paid for. And so they they valued what shop was doing out of the market. It was an expensive practice to work with. But but they they did value that. So, you know, it was refreshing for students to come in here or young people would come in and say, oh, wait, what we do is actually a valuable thing, which was not what you would hear even in school. Like, I remember, you know, how many professors had told me is, like, oh, you're gonna be an architect, you know, prepare to be poor. Like, well, I didn't make a lot of money by working at CHOP, but, the thinking, the possibility that design, could be reframed in a different way was was very much alive. They even started a couple of other companies.

D Right? They had, like, development group. They had a construction group. And so there was an entrepreneurial spirit within within that practice, at the time. I'm not sure if those things are still there or not. But, you know, I know that they have a startup now. So so it's I think it's I think it is it is definitely part of the of the the sort of genesis of all of this, if you will. Like, that that influence is real.

A I think a lot of people are interested in in SHOP DSAs for for a lot of different reasons. But I do remember, you know, being in school and and kind of feeling like like that was, like, one of the firms, like you said, younger leadership, forward thinking, like like, that was one of the firms I think that a lot of my peers were naturally drawn to or even just talked about or knew about because of the things that they were doing differently. I wanna dive a little bit back into so so, you know, the story is KACE obviously got bought by WeWork, and Dave ended up kind of on the people ops side of things, which led him to Teal. Where did your journey in WeWork kind of take you, and did it have any influence on where you've grown your new company?

D Of course. It it it certainly did. I when I joined, WeWork, I came on to be what at the time was called head of design, working really closely with, with Miguel McKelvey, who's, you know, one of the co founders of the company and the chief creative officer and the, and the creative team that, that he had set up. So wonderful group of, of, you know, designers who are, who had made something. I think that was like really special. And so my, my role really was to help them scale this, this really precious thing that they had put together. And so we had been helping them from the outside for quite a bit. We had been, you know, trying to, let's say, expose them to the way that retailers or hospitality companies worked, which was structured fundamentally different than a development company, which which is kind of the structure that they had internally.

D And so we said, look, if, you know, development is meant to move slow because these are big and expensive decisions, retail or hospitality, you know, rollout, methodology is meant to move fast. And so, you know, installing not just technology, but really a whole methodology of work internally and was a big part of that sort of initial effort. And so my role there is out of design was to help, you know, help take this thing, productize it, completely restructure and reframe the way in which we did work and, you know, and then grow into, what we needed to be to make this product better, to be able to build it faster, to be able to guarantee quality control across the globe, not just in a few cities in the US and to above all, you know, be able to cut costs drastically, because we were very much still living in the world of, you know, traditional, retrofits, which were very, very expensive, very sort of like, you know, unique from one building to the next, all of that, you know, which we, we have to figure out a way to build into our design framework as opposed to try to reject it. I think a lot of people, a lot of people try to kind of like, what I look, I like to always call design out, change. You're trying to like, make this perfect thing and the world is imperfect. So if you try to fight it, you'll, you will lose that fight. And so, you know, part of all of this was to create a product, that welcomed change, that expected it. You know? And as a result of that, that you're able to to adjust, able to accept the world in a very happy way as opposed to in a way that, like, you know, that that ends up requiring thousands of hours of meetings and coordination calls and little details and things that are that are all in the an effort to, to, to, to, in a way, just occlude reality.

D Like, like we don't need to do that. So we, we, we really try to build a product and and and really a team first that would be able to think that way and and to approach our product in a different way. And then and then, you know, and then, and, you know, scale. So, so of course opening buildings was the daily routine, if you will. But we're trying to do it with a, with a different thought process. And so there was a little bit of a reeducation. We went out there and got the best talent that we could. And I think that a lot of people who came through the system, I think, really accept really, like, appreciated it.

D And and you see it a lot now. There's a lot of wonderful people that have gone on to, you know, as they continue their careers, they're doing amazing things. And I think taking a lot of the ideas that we had at WeWork, and applying them in their specific fields or verticals or companies or whatever whatever that may be.

C I think we're interested to know because like you said, those first folks who, like, took that step away from traditional practice were kind of on the outside a little bit of the profession. And I think we're starting to see that change. But I'm curious, like, those early folks who step towards WeWork, like, what was it about them, or what was it about the culture of the company that really attracted them? What what are the themes that we could learn from in terms of, like, creating better cultures even within architecture?

D You have to you have to inspire people no matter what. Right? And so I think what, like, at the end of the day, you have to stand for something. Right? And, and I think where a lot of, you know, I can sort of go deep into what I think is wrong with architectural practice. But I'll say one thing. Architecture and consulting are not the same thing. And and I think that architects who have become consultants have become really great at not taking a position at anything ever. And that's just not inspiring. Right? It might be okay for business, but it's just not inspiring.

D And so I think talent is gonna go where talent wants to go, especially in today's job market. And they're what they're looking for is to be part of something that they believe in that's representative of their values, if you will. And I'm sure Dave talked a lot about this. And I think that we work fairly early on tapped into this idea that, like, you know, it's not something new that are that a lot of really great talent in architecture is a little bored. And so we, we just sort of tapped into that and said, hey, well, there's gonna be a lot of things here, but boredom is not one of them. So so come on over. And and I think they were excited. They were excited that, like, next to them was a, you know, mechanical engineer and across the table on the other side was a technologist and over on the other side was an an acoustician and over on the other side was a construction manager.

D Right? Like, they never worked in a place like that. They worked in a place where you walk in and, you know, out of a 198 people are architects. And so that's, that's not diverse. It's not in any way sort of like, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're learning a craft, which is great, but it, but you're not seeing other perspectives. And when you do get to see other perspective, this is why you, you know, I like to say, like, you walk, you walk down the office and it's a big old architecture day, and everybody's at meetings because it's actually kind of nice to go see what other people think. Like like, you wanna go talk to these consultants. I mean, you're paying them money, which is kind of an odd thing, but, like, at the end of the day, it's like, I I really do wonder what the structural engineer thinks about this and what the acquisition thinks about that because they see the world a little bit different than you. Wouldn't it be wonderful for you to be able to work with those people next to you all the time? And so cross functional teams were core to WeWork, and they are not core to the way that architecture is practiced.

D And so I think that that just that was a completely, like, a completely different culture than what people were used to. And so it was it was super dynamic. It was really diverse from the point of view of of expertise, and that was pretty amazing. And then once that word started getting out, right, then, you know, we we like to say at the beginning, it's like it's like, look, our our tactic initially because we when we started, or when, you know, when we came over for the first time, I would say that talent acquisition was hard. Right? Like, nobody really knew what WeWork was, or if they knew, they were like, what? Like, you're gonna go work for, like, this, like, owner? Like, this is like, you know, this was a time when going to work for like the client side was like, was was was sacrilegious. You couldn't do that. Like, you know, you're selling yourself up. And so we had to reposition that storyline.

D And I would always tell the story. I was like, there was a time when, like, if you were an amazing brand strategist, you would never go work at, like, you know, in house at a brand. You wanna work for 1 of the big five agencies. But then, like, you know, the Nikes of the world came through. And and, like, now you have, like, on the tech side, like, the Arabes of the world came through or the Figmas of the world come through. And, like, what ends up what ends up happening is that being on the client side or being at the agency, not only become comparable, but potentially in some brands, it actually even becomes better to be on the client side. And so, like, what's the client side of architecture? What's the client side of interiors? And we were became that. I mean, we just say, like, there was a there was a time when nobody knew Nike, and now every industrial designer and brand strategist wants to be at Nike, wants to have Nike on their resume.

D Right? And and so can we do that for workplace design? Can we do that, you know, like there was, you know, if you had WeWork on your resume, we we dreamed of a moment where, and obviously the ending was very different from what we expected, but we we we tried to visualize a time when everybody would want somebody in their workplace team that had WeWork on their resume. And so how do you make that happen? How do you design that culture? How do you design this idea? And and you, you know, you have to make, you have to sort of make this happen. And that includes giving people the room and the autonomy to be to be really, truly creative and to and to sort of come together and to say, like, no. No. Like, what you do is really valuable. What you do is going to, you know, change a lot of people's lives. And so you give them the room for it. You don't just say it's, like, okay to do this 20% of your time.

D Like, no. This isn't your core job. Now, you know, let's go do it, and let's go build this amazing product and just make it better and better and better. And so I think that all of those things together created this environment that all of a sudden, you know, became became quite an attractive thing to to do. We we were also, like, paying better. Like, let's just be super honest. Right? Like, our benefits were better and our pay was better than your typical firm, and we could afford to do that not only because we are, of course, VC funded, but because because in the scheme of things, the salaries of of of our team, you know, against a product that you're going to manage for 15 years was was nothing. And so, you know, this this idea of what, you know, what would get outsourced, what wouldn't get outsourced, and all of that, it it it just became completely obvious.

D It's like, look. Your product team has to be internal, and it makes complete sense because a few amazing product people can make a huge, huge impact. So yeah. So, look, all of those things together, you know, worked. And I think it's and we didn't invent it. Right? Like, Starbucks did it in its time, in its heyday, and Disney did it before, and McDonald's, and, like, a bunch of people, you know, hospitality companies that have this model. We were just, I think, the first to do it in workplace. A lot of people compared us to Regis, you know, with all due respect to Regis, like, their product is terrible.

D And so, like, you know, nobody wants to go work with Regis. So you bring all of those things together, and all of a sudden, I think you'd be you'd have the beginnings of of something that can be pretty special.

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C I think what I most appreciate about the WeWork as a case study is that there was an attempt to really address the problems and to design solutions instead of, like, ignore the problems and hope they go away. And so, like, I think everybody that I talked to that, has been on the show that spent time at WeWork talks a lot about, the different ways that those problems were addressed from a business model standpoint. And so I really appreciate you talking about breaking away the barriers that, most often occur within a, you know, a a typical team and firm structure. I think that cross team dynamic is really important as a as a concept. And if anywhere like, I hope that on this show, you feel totally empowered to talk about the flaws of the industry of architecture because we're all about it. And so, you know, feel free to lean further into that.

D I mean, look, I think that architectural practice with and I I have, like, 0 basis in terms of research to back this up, but this is what it feels like to me. And I left it fairly early in my career. So what I would say is that architectural practice that the the framework works great up to a certain scale. It's a framework that I think is good for small firms. I think at a certain scale, you become inevitably a click farm. Right? Like you're, you're hiring, you're, you're, you're sort of trying to acquire labor as cheaply as possible and repackage it and sell it for profit. And that, and that comes with some really, really difficult cultural problems. And, and, and you're trying to, and like, look at the end of the day, architects either sell compliance or they sell aspiration.

D And if you sell aspiration, like you have a tension there that, that cannot easily be resolved. Like you can't sell the aspiration of a better world through how we have an impact on our built environment while at the same time having a business model that depends on, you know, trying to squeeze out as much as you can from employees. And then, you know, and every architecture firm does this every 10 years or so. You, you know, you, you have, you, there's a lot of work, you hire a lot of people, then there's less work. And so you fire them. And then you have work and you have a lot of people and then there's less work and you hire them. And so I, you know, there's people out there like Phil Bernstein who have studied this and are probably much more eloquent at talking about it than I have. But, but the, the problem to me is not architecture in itself is the vehicle.

D The the business model of it is one model for it. It can't be the only one. Right? And so why can't we have other versions? Why can't we have other, other ways of practicing? And the reality and they said when you begin to sort of scratch on this, they do exist. There are other ways of being a designer out there in the spatial world. They're just not wrapped in this word architect. And so again, this is where, like, the freedom comes comes through. Like, there's amazing interior design firms that do all kinds of work, which traditionally could be considered architecture. But like, they don't use that word.

D And they they charge better. They they have a better ability to to collaborate and to hire different kinds of folks. They're, you know, not to say that interior designers is better as a whole, but like, it's, it's, they're definitely not bound in that, in that, in that sort of way. There's plenty of interior designers out there who are also terrible. But, but you begin to see now, and I think that hopefully what WeWork did was to make it okay to not work just, you know, to not just be at a firm. And then it's okay to go work at a at a on the on the client side. It's okay to go work at a product company. It's okay to do these things.

D Not only is it okay, it's actually probably more fun. And then you got to the point, you know, or even very quickly over the arts of time there where, like all of a sudden we started to get a ton of resumes, people from people that were just coming out of school. Because for them, you know, the FOMO of seeing all of their friends go into work at like, you know, Stripe and Slack or whatever, like, what am I going to do? Go work for like, you know, some 72 year old person who like, like, it just doesn't even understand the world as it is today in the 21st century. And so it just like the lack of connectivity there, or the lack of, of context in a lot of those companies and a lot of those firms was, was, was just so significant that you walked into them and it, it already felt, it already felt like dated. I mean, I would even, I won't say it publicly, but I would even go as far as to say that the even some of the younger generation that like still got caught up in that sort of 20th century model, you walk into those companies today and they still feel they do. Even though partnership isn't that, isn't that old. Right. And so, you know, I think it's, I think it's a scaling problem.

D I really do. You know, I think boutique firms do awesome work, but I think that, you know, as long as they treat their employees and their customers have like, well, like that's, that's totally fine. But I think that when you go into the tens and hundreds and even thousands of people, you have some real issues to have to try to work out because feeding that machine is not easy. And even with all of the best of intentions, it's a, you know, it's a hard thing to do. So either, you know, go into, so like you have to go into parallel fields, you gotta get into more strategy, you have to get into more technology. Like there are companies out there that do a really amazing work there and to sort of like expanding their work into, into, into other fields so that, so that the ebbs and flows of physical work, aren't the only things that define them. But there's many who aren't, I think at the core of it all, is it just mostly a lack of creativity? It's like you you've been handed this manual, right? Like professional manual of what you're supposed to do, and you don't even question it. You just kinda like go with it.

D Like, it's kinda crazy to me. Like, you just it's like, cool, but no. Like, why, why would we do this? I, this is probably why I, don't know. I would never probably get invited to anything that has to do with AIA, but like, I don't think that like the effort that the whole industry puts on tradition is well founded. I think actually is, is quite destructive. And I think that it requires a whole reconstruction. And I hope that it happens at some point, but I'm certainly not going to like wait around for it to happen myself. And I hope that people out there, don't either.

D Like the world is wonderful and there's plenty of amazing places to, to go do work, including within firms, but it's not the only way. Like, if you ever feel somehow or another you don't fit, you're right. You don't fit. So go somewhere else. It's not you. It's them. A 100%.

A It's interesting. I mean, this is obviously a conversation, and we could go this direction, for much longer. I I wanted I do wanna talk about Kanoa. But, you know, what's interesting to me is is that that tradition, I think, is somewhat is so tied to identity that what I feel a lot of architects even struggle with when they consider, do I stay in practice? Do I move away from practice? Is one the, you know, tenuous path that they'd walked just to get to where they are. So heavens forbid they ever step off that path. But also, like, this idea of if I'm not an architect, then who am I? I think is something that architects or people even with an architectural background kind of begin to struggle with.

D Yeah. Look. I I I get it, but it's but it's it's also a way of keeping people in line. Right? Like, why why couldn't you be the chief product officer somewhere? Right? Like, lawyers don't stop being lawyers because they're the chief legal officer at a company. Like, it's not even it's not even a thought. It's kinda crazy to me. Like, go be the chief product officer somewhere. Go go be chief creative officer somewhere.

D Go like, all of these roles and titles all exist. And and actually, they're becoming a lot lot more common. Chief architect. All of these things, are out there, and they and they exist for good reason. I do think that this has to do with with the I don't know. There's a, for me, it always felt a little bit Orwellian. Like, there's this idea that, like, if you kinda, like, step out of line, you you've been, you're now shunned by everybody. It's like, like, why? Like, I don't know.

D I I never finished passing my test, so I can't use that word. I'm a designer. But if you did and you're an architect, like, go do whatever you want. Like, it's it's to a degree, I think people people have been taught that if, you know, if you're not part of the pack, if you're not sort of following along, that in a way you're, you're kind of leaving that tradition. And that's why I think it's, it's, it's, it's actually quite disruptive. I think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think it's healthy. I think if anything, companies, the what I would love to see is a bunch of firms going out there and, like, severely increasing their diversity of different types of practitioners, and not just professionals in their mindset, but in in, like, different kinds of, of, of, of fields of, of design, of project management, of strategy, of branding, of all of these kinds of things. And I think that any company that looks at it that way or go the a route, right, and go with engineering, like, that's fine.

D Like but I think those companies probably have a, you know, a better like, we'll say we'll have a better culture. We'll see. I don't know. I don't have the like, I clearly don't have solutions. I also can't necessarily sort of put my finger on on the actual problem, other than, you know, from a business perspective, other than just saying that, like, making people feel bad is certainly not productive, and it's certainly not, like, healthy. It's like, you know, do what you need to do, support people the best you can. And if and if that means that they have to go elsewhere, then that means that they have to go elsewhere. I mean, how many how many conversations have we been on where, like, architects are complaining.

D It's like, oh, we take all this time to train them, and then they leave. Are you kidding me? Like, you build all of those hours. Like, they have made you money. Like, you don't own these these people. Like, it's it just do, you know, do what you need to, and they will do what they need to. Like, it's not it's not some some like, a lot of the language it's used is like really, really old school. And and what's worse is that you hear the other language even with younger practitioners because they had to pay their dues, so now they're making other people work. So the amount of gatekeeping in the industry is terrible.

D So I would say even more so than the than the actual sort of business vehicle, it's the culture. Like, the culture is is is quite toxic. And so they're gonna continue to have a brain drain for as long as that culture continues to be that way. Like, it doesn't sound fun to go work at any of these companies. It sounds prestigious, but not fun. And at some point, that's gonna come up, that's gonna come up to them. And and, you know, and I think it's already happening. The best talent coming out of school today, are they really going to, like, all of those names? Some are.

D Some still are. But they're probably also going, you know, to, like, the latest, like, housing startup or the latest, like, whatever startup. Like, why? Because their roommate is. And, like, if their roommate's getting, like, these things called options in a company, why can't I get options in a company? Like, what's this partnership thing that I have to I have to pay Intuit? Are you kidding me? But they're getting it for free, like, as compensation. Like, it it doesn't even, like, the even the methodology doesn't make sense. And so and so it's hard to compete with, you know, with that from a talent perspective today.

C I think you're hitting it spot on on so many different elements that we try to talk about on the show. But definitely, this talent angle, I think that you're a 100%. And it's so funny to me that some people are just, like, scratching their heads going, where where are all the architects? Where are all the designers that we need to be hiring right now? It's like, you kinda chase them away over the last 10 years. But I want to dive into how all of these things that we've talked about up until this point have gotten you to this next step that you're in in your career. And I love it when one of our guests comes on the show and they have passions and values that overlap around the themes that we love. So yours hit into technology and climate, and you've created a company, Kanoa. I'd love to know hear from your own words, like, what is the company? What's the vision for it? But also, how do you define your career now, now that you're in this different role? Like, are you a technologist? Are you a designer? Are you a climate activist? Like, what do you what do you see your role as?

D I'm not big on on labels. I do think that I, I consider myself a designer. I consider myself an environmentalist for sure. I'm not sort of going out there and, and like, I I like I'd I'd like to think that through our work, we can have an impact that I don't need to just go to, like, demonstrations all the time. I I think that the world needs to change through everyday action, not not just through these sort of, like, specific points, although that's important as well, but it's not my thing. We're a technology company that is trying to reinvent really the way that people design and shop for their offices and the way that they're managed. Right? Like I, I still fundamentally completely in love with the workplace problem because it's such a difficult one. And and so, you know, after leaving WeWork and taking some time and all this stuff, I said, what do I, what do I wanna do? And that complete messiness of humans and and and like, you know, our changing culture and need crashing into our existing cities and buildings just sounds completely wonderful to me, even though it's, it's like a super messy world.

D And so we're like, okay, well, let's build some technology that is like custom made specifically for this completely forgotten sector of the industry. You know, we we'd like to say internally that that, you know, those of us who are in, in commercial interiors and interior design, we've had to borrow technology from ground up construction forever. And it sucks all of it. It's just not good enough. I used to, you know, hog Revit everywhere with case as well, and we thought it was like the next great thing. And then before that it was like, you know, with shop, it it was CATIA, and then, you know, of course, Rhino. And like, look, I'll be the first one. Actually, people even at at at hate this for me, but like, I'll be the first one.

D I'll I'll adopt anything. Like, I I'm the first one to sign up for every technology everywhere. Like, I just love everything. And, and so that tinkering spirit is some is certainly one that we have when we had a case. I think we, we took that through with us at, at WeWork as well, but everything felt blunt. Everything felt too heavy, for the problem set that we had, that we were really trying to to work through with with with Kanoa and with the workplace. And it's the only reason why we ended up sort of with the with the product that we have, which is really just a really simple space planning tool with an embedded marketplace. It's it's all it is.

D Like, imagine if you, like, number 1, like, really, do we need, like, all of these buttons and all of these tool? Like, really, we don't. And so we'd like to say, you know, we just wanted to design an X ACTO knife in a world of, like, machetes and bazookas. All of those tools are great. They just do way too much. And 2, it's like, why can I buy a car on my phone? But I like, but getting a chair for like, you know, 10 people on my team is a 6 month ordeal. Being able to bring these sort of e commerce type solutions and workflows into, into these companies is a, is a, is a big part of it. And all of it being driven by the, by the simple fact that when you're operating space, not designing sort of big fancy new ones, but when you're operating space, the cycle of feedback, redesign, implement feedback, redesign, implement is really tight and it's really fast. And so the reason why we love, you know, FFNE and we love prefab and we love all these modular components and we think it's really the way to go is because it's fast, because it responds to the end user's needs.

D It's not something that is hypothetical about some future that's gonna be amazing. And I'm sure it will be amazing, but it will be wrong. And so I'd rather be right and nearsighted than wrong and farsighted. Right? Like, I'd rather I'd rather you know, you could walk into an amazing space that we're like, yeah, I wish we wouldn't have made that decision. How many times have we said that? Right? And so the reality is that all of them. Right? I I we had full teams that we work at some point when we're, like, really at mega growth that were knocking as much as much stuff down as they were putting up because the needs of of our customers, of our actual users were changing every day. And and even and now with hybrid, it's that's exponential. And so the whole concept behind Kanoa is that the needs of the workplace are such now that, design and deployments have to go hand in hand, and that we, we have to make these spaces much more, much more responsive than they used to be.

D And so, and so why can't every company just have like their own, store, virtual store, curated store that they go into and they buy all this stuff and they, they manage what they need to and all that stuff. Like, that's, that's really a vision. And we need to track all of it because also when you're done with it, we can't just throw it out either. Right? And so it has to be this sort of ongoing relationship, with with the cut between us and the customer, but really ultimate with the customer and their and their end users. So we want to be sort of tied together as, as closely as possible. It's a big vision from the perspective that we know that, you know, there's billions of square feet of this stuff out there in the world. Who knows what's gonna happen to a lot of it over the next 10 years? What we do know is that all of it is going to change. And so we're just beginning to scratch the surface on what that gigantic problem set.

D But I can tell you one thing, like hawking gypsum board is not gonna be one of them. Right? And that's you know, what a lot of architects end up doing. It's like you can't tie all of your fees to just how much, you know, of the stuff you sell out into the world. Like, this stuff is gonna end up in landfills. We know that all of this stuff is going to change. And so we see a world where, workplace behaves more like retail, behaves more like other parallel space types that are just much more flexible. Right? Like retail reconfigures almost seasonally sometimes. Right? Like Macy's does 5 reconfigurations a year and workplace doesn't, Really, it should.

D And why doesn't it? Because we continue designing and building the way that we used to. And so I I I think the product market fit of the way that the office was designed is now gone. And we are beginning to find, try to find what the new one may be. Nobody has the answer yet, but we know it's not what it used to be. And so what we tell customers, we have a gigantic opportunity to leap forward with hybrid towards something that is much lower carbon, much lighter on the planet, much more flexible, much higher degrees of, of, of engagement, because you're going to do it faster. You're going to get to iteration 6 or 7 by the time that the other way would have gotten you the 1st iteration. Right? And so feed and feedback and learning and all of these things that we talk about all the time become sort of crunched together. And so Kanoa sits right at that nexus of all of these things coming together.

D At the end of the day, our business model is really simple. We, you know, we sell stuff, we sell all of these objects and products, but we but we and, you know, we help you track them and all that stuff. But we wanna make it fun. We wanna, like, why can't I, why can't I have an amazing, you know, little design tool where I can just like right click and buy the stuff and, and, and, you know, and why can't somebody just magically fulfill those orders on the backside without me having to really worry too much about it. And so we do see a world we, I, we, we, this is the, probably our biggest kind of swing. And this is where, you know, you know, we'll see how, how this all goes, but we do see a world where this sort of separation between, you know, design and the end user and like all of these steps between like, you know, procurement and all these kinds of things just have to get so much tighter, so much tighter that the way in which we do them today just just simply won't work for a vast majority of the market. It'll continue to work for some of of it, for the like mega projects and all those kinds of things that, you know, architects sort of love to chase. That's great.

D But, but a vast proportion of the industry won't use that. Right? Like, you know, the average lease in the US is 75 100 square feet. It's not 75,000 or 7,000,000. It's 75100. Right? And so a lot of this work today happens sort of in the ether. I don't really know how, and you'll see, but it's it's it's, it's a problem we love. And it's, you know, a problem that today has been put front and center in the conversation at every company's boardroom. You know, we'd like to say like workplace teams are the sort of on between them and HR.

D They're the unsung heroes of, of the pandemic. Like they've all been thrust into such strategic decisions that, you know, without much help to be frank. And now all of this stuff, all of these decisions have to be made. And the, and the companies we love to work with are the ones that see their spaces as a fundamental, part of their strategy for talent acquisition and talent retention, and as, as a way, and, and, and from a brand perspective as the representation on to where does it fit into their ESG goals and where does it fit into like their, you know, their, their storyline with the planet and their impact on it. And so if your company doesn't sort of think about those things, then we're probably not right for you, but the ones that are the ones that are going in that direction, we all know what this problem is. We all know that it's difficult. And we all know that we need sort of different ways. You know, we we need to leap forward, and so we wanna work with those folks.

D So that's where we are, and and and that's what we're doing. And, yeah, and sort of unapologetically, you know, we love it. So

A You know, I the interesting thing is you talk about these over robust tools, you know, and and you being this X ACTO knife in in the tool set. But you're also putting into the hands of, you know, people. I I kind of laugh at all of the designs that I've gotten from people that have literally, like, office layouts, especially when I worked for a commercial brokerage that people laid out in Excel. So now and I don't know how they did that. I mean, good for them for figuring out how to, like, lay things out on Excel is beyond me. But now you're placing in the hand of these individuals a much more powerful tool. So what does Kanoa mean for for architects? Is it a threat? Is it an opportunity? What should the boutique practicing architect be thinking about Kanoa? Do I need to be following what you guys are doing and decide, am I gonna be a partner with those guys, or how are we gonna compete?

D I'll start with the the first part of that question, which or not really a question, but statements. We we fundamentally believe that that design should be much more inclusive than it is. I think this sort of, like again, this back to this sort of gatekeeping that, like, I have this knowledge and only I have it, and that's why you have to pay $650 an hour for it is the wrong way to look at our industry. We need to be much more open and inclusive and affordable. And so we do see Kanoa much more in the vein of something like a Squarespace or Webflow or these kinds of tools, which also in their own industries initially were feared. But now they're like, oh, yeah. You know, like, why can't I just make my own website? Like, do I really and so and so we're not there yet, of course, but a part of our mission and, and part of, and part of the genesis of all of this stuff is to say, we need to give more people access to, to changing their own immediate physical environments. And how do we do that safely? How do we do that, like, in a really fun way? And so our tools is just, you know, this drag and drop interface specifically for that.

D I think from, from that side, you know, we definitely want to engage a wider audience than just sort of experts. That said, the experts themselves, I would say, you know, we we we partner with designers. Mostly we partner with sort of, you know, workplace designers and interior designers, less so architects, although, you know, many architects actually do sort of workplace design, and we'd be happy to, to partner with them. We even have an affiliate program where we pay these people, or we bring them work. Right? Because not every one of our customers wants to use what sort of out of the box. They want something a little bit more like glove. They want something. And so we we have an affiliate program that, you know, where we bring these companies business as long as, as long as we have what I would say, a similar mindset when it comes to, to the world of sustainability and the types of vendors and suppliers that we want to use and those kinds of things.

D But other than that, you know, design what you will. So I'd say for for for for those companies, we are definitely a partner. We're definitely competitive with the mega firm, mostly because we believe that it's just not the right vehicle for this type of stuff. You'll just be able to, well, like, Cannella will just be cheaper and faster. And so if you, if you're out there sort of hawking like 18 months delivery projects and like, you know, traditional SD, DD, CD, programs, and then CA, and everything is like these, you know, gigantic fees. I think for a lot of customers in Workplace, that might still be okay, but I think culturally more 21st century type businesses just won't operate that way any longer. Because just the risk is too high. Like really, are you gonna are you ready to make decisions that are 3 years out today? No.

D Like people are happy to make 6 month decisions, maybe even 12 month decisions. But certainly not decisions about, you know, constructing something that we think will maybe last 7 to 10 years when we know it won't. When a company's office is is is, you know, which which is certainly the case with a lot of tech companies and and sort of knowledge workers, is such a significant part of their carbon footprint. You can't make those decisions anymore. You can't make a decision to, you know, to to, like, you know, the core and shell is one thing, but the interior is, like like, build a theater. Like, really, build a build, like, build nothing effectively. Just give me, you know, big, open, base of of room. Give me a ton of natural light and give me, know, healthy ceiling you know, floor to ceiling heights.

D That's really all that workplace wants. And then inside of that, we'll figure it out. And that, you know, and and I think traditionally just just don't necessarily know how to work into that mold if you're like the mega firm. I think I think smaller firms totally get it. So we love working with smaller firms who are younger. I would say if you started in the last 10 years and you're less than 20 people, you're probably our best partner, and we will and we will bring you work, you know, so reach out to us. If you're a couple thousand people, and you're a 100 years old, you know, maybe maybe look the other way for a while.

A You talked a lot about company culture and the the toxic culture that kind of is a part of architecture firms. And this is not Cannella is not the first company that you've built. So have you taken the same exacto knife approach to to how you wanna carve out the the company culture in Kanoa, or or what is your approach to creating company culture at this point?

D I think it all starts with having with taking a stance. I think Kanoa takes a big stance in the world. And so off the bat, it sort of attracts a kind of particular type of human, I think. If you have something like that to stand on, then everything else down stream from that is a little bit, call it easier, but it's it's simpler. I'd love to say that, you know, you know, we're we're tiny. And so company culture, especially in a fully remote world, which is the world we're living in today, you know, I'd say the experience is quite different from from what it was at KACE. Kanoa was started like 2 months, 2, 3 months before the pandemic hit widely. So like a lot of our decisions, you know, are very much sort of born out of the pandemic.

D Like, a lot of where we are today come out of this period. And so we consider ourselves fully a post pandemic type of company because we probably would have made quite very different decisions had this not happened, including, you know, who are who our customers are. At the beginning, our customers, our idea was to really go after a small business sector, and we ended up having to go completely pivot and to go up up market into enterprise because the small business world just completely went away when it came to office space. And so, you know, and that was effectively supplanted by work from home now, which is a whole other now industry that exists, to support that. But it's, you know, we're a little bit of an older company from from in terms of, like, demographics. Right? Like, I I would say that, like, you know, Case was a bunch of 20 some year olds. Kanoa is not that. Like, it's like a lot of us have worked together before, we've known each other for some time.

D So we're, we're a little bit later in our career. It's a very small company. We're only 10 people. Everyone comes with a high degree of experience today. And so we took a little bit of a different approach to typical startup. Although I think a lot of startup people love this idea of like, oh, you just want, you know, you want a lot of hustlers. You want a lot of people, like, you know, people that don't sleep and work weekends. We are not that at all.

D Like, we have super healthy benefits. We pay really well. We don't work on weekends. I don't work on weekends. You know, like, you know, it's a startup company for sure. And so like our growth objectives are significant, but we but we're trying to build something that lasts for a long time. And we're trying to, you know, build something that will still be there when our customers need us to be there 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now. And so our goal is to build something that is that is founded on healthy practices because we know that that's the only way that we're going to survive.

D And and we have the experience of WeWork, which was not founded on healthy practices, and that did not survive. Right? And so our only data point clearly shows us that you have to do it in a different way. Otherwise, it's not going to work. You might be able to get out of the gate. You might be able to, like, grow really fast. You might be able to do all these things. But if you don't sort of work towards some sort of, if you're not founded upon something that's really solid, then it's gonna be really hard for you to maintain that that that growth rate and that scalability. We are unapologetic about the fact that we want to be a very, very significant company.

D We want to, we are building what I would call like the 1st post pandemic design brand in America. We want to be something that in, like in this century is really representative and we're going after it like, full blown. And we're starting with the workplace because that's where, like, we love because we love that problem set. We're not gonna be a small company. We're certainly not boutique. We are, you know, we have aspirations and we have investments and we do have VC backing and all those kinds of things, but we but, you know, but we're we're trying to do it our way. We'll see if we make it or not, but I tell you this. Internally, we we basically have 2 outcomes.

D Either we're gonna be a giant, amazing, wonderful company, or we're gonna completely not exist. There's no in between because we're not here to shoot for the middle. We're gonna, you know, shoot for big. We're gonna shoot for awesome and amazing. And, and then we're going to be proud that we tried, even if it doesn't work. What we cannot do is walk away, and sort of like have this this itching feeling in the back of our mind that we didn't, you know, we didn't try to go after, like, the big pot. And we want to. If Florence Noah was starting her company today, she would have a software component.

D Why does every company that have anything to do with a workplace today feel like they're a 100 year old companies? Because most of them are. And so, you know, demographically speaking, we've we saw that there's a big opportunity here for us to to just represent different types of culture and demographic in the way that we do things.

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