Finding Your Voice as a Leader

A This episode of Practice Disrupted is brought to you by Monograph, Arc IT, and NCARB. You'll hear more about them later in the show.

B I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

A Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

B Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

B Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Welcome back to another episode of Practice Disrupted. Today, we're not bringing on a guest. We're actually gonna have a conversation between Evelyn and myself. You know, over the series of seasons, we've had different variations of conversations. But today, we thought that it would be really important as we've crossed our 70th episode to reflect, talk a little bit about the leadership between both of us and our careers so that you would get to know us and why we're doing this work and what motivates and drives our passion for leading these conversations on disruption and where we see our role as leaders in this industry.

A Right. And one of the interesting things, you you know, you and I always talk about finding each other through the AIA, so I think we have a common connection there. And you and I have also talked about just our overall general career paths. But I think what we haven't really touched upon is how our engagement and our involvement in what is considered, you know, a volunteer leadership positions have kind of influenced our own career trajectories and where we've landed.

B Yeah. I I'm interested to have this conversation because I feel like I'm in this really interesting moment in my career where I'm finally feeling very connected to my voice as a leader in my career, not just in my volunteer service. And, I'm excited to kinda reflect on this because I feel like all of the work that I've been doing over the past 10 years has been helping me kinda get to this moment. And so I think there's a lot we can talk about about leadership in architecture and just the role that an interest in leadership plays in career development.

A And what I find really interesting about you, Janine, is that I I almost feel that your leadership career started much earlier than mine ever did in my career because you were engaged at AIAS at the national level. It's funny to me because I think back upon kind of how I be got began to get involved in AIAS, and it was I think it was my sophomore year. And I sat in a meeting at AIAS, and the the people came back and they said, you know, they would they had this amazing opportunity to connect with other students at AIAS Grassroots over the summer, and, oh my god, the school paid for the trip. And I was like, oh, well, how do I I want I I just missed out on an opportunity. How do I how do I do that? And then that year was my first AIAS forum that I went to. But, you know, I I was I was never gonna be one of those people that ran for a national position. And I was so envious of people that had found their voice already and felt that they could stand up on that stage and and give speeches. And, you know, how did you get involved so early in your career? Like, what drove you? And did somebody tap you on the shoulder, or was it something in your upbringing that said, like, I wanna do this this now as, you know, as a student or new graduate coming out of school?

B Wow. It's really nice to be asked that. I haven't thought about this in a while, so this is really, making me think. What I've been able to reflect on as an adult is to look back and see that my undergraduate experience at UNC Charlotte had such a huge impact on how I view the way that communities and architecture should function. So everybody in the program, at least when I was there, was very collaborative and very supportive and really there was such a great community behind the studio and the studio culture at the school. And I had really great mentors within the program that inspired me to step into my work with AIS. So Ashley Clark was actually the person that interviewed me to get into the school of architecture. She gave me the tour.

B I had

A no idea.

B Yeah. Like, Ashley and I go so far back. She was one of the first people I met, and, you know, she was an early leader of AIS at the school, And then later, Deanna Moore, who was, my predecessor in terms of going from UNC Charlotte onto the national board of directors, You know, she kinda led the way, and I think I always had leadership skills, and I was struggling in the studio environment to figure out you know, I think we talk a lot about finding your fit in a career in architecture, and for me, I was never gonna be the person who was sitting at the studio desk tediously refining their design. That was just not where my interest was, but AIS was the thing that lit me up. Like, I I loved being pulled into these programs where I was able to work with the students and develop content and and programs that got people excited about the bigger picture ideas of becoming an architect. Like, early in my career, we were doing, I was very involved with the mentorship program. I had another really great mentor, Georgia Cameron, who was, like,

A my professional contact outside

B of school in the AIA. So long like, voice and I found something that really called to me in terms of making me feel like I was my best self and excited about the work I was doing through AIS. And when I started going to these that there that there was, like, a greater community to architecture beyond just sitting in my studio environment. And I felt like running for national office was an opportunity for myself to step further into my capabilities as a leader to really push myself to grow, basically. I just I wanted to grow that skill, and I I thought this was the best way to do it. So maybe another thing you don't know is that when I ran for national president, actually like, I almost didn't do it. I came really close because it wasn't a great studio semester for me. I was really struggling.

B I was in my 5th year, and I just almost didn't run for president. And, that would have radically changed my life if I hadn't. But I ended up running off the floor because I got to the event, and I was like, if I don't do this, I will regret not doing this. And so, like, I made this big dramatic campaign off the floor, and I won. And it and it completely changed my life, honestly. It threw me into this world that I didn't know existed, and I learned so many amazing leadership skills, just from that experience alone.

A What is interesting to me, though, is that you found your voice so incredibly early in the profession, and I feel like it took me much longer to to find that community that you identified with so early on.

B Yeah. But it was hard because what ended up happening that really surprised me was once I was done with AIS and I went back into the profession, that community disappeared. I mean, when when I started working in firms, that community element was really missing and I kept trying to find it. And, honestly, like, if you talk to anybody that I worked with in my past jobs, like, I was constantly trying to cultivate that same supportive environment that that I felt was lacking in the firms that I worked for.

A Yeah. And that that juxtaposition is also interesting to me because and we talked about this. So literally, we're we're recording this after we got off a call with Andrew. But I, you know, we I feel like our secret the secrecy in our profession and and we're just talking secrecy in practice. Like, it it I feel like it's inadvertently isolated people from one another in a way that prevents that community from being built.

B So while I had a leadership voice early in my career and and AIS made me stronger, I think practicing actually took a lot of my confidence away. And one of the things that I've been working on personally is rebuilding that confidence now in the second part of my career that's led up to me running my own business and doing the podcast. It I actually had to rebuild my confidence and refind my voice as a leader just because I, you know, there's just a lot of things that happen, which I think it's hard to talk about, but it I think that isolation, I think, is the core idea, like, that summarizes it is just feeling super isolated, not feeling like there were other people like me in the profession, not feeling like I actually fit in the profession, and trying to decide, like, how to move forward with my career. So, you know, that's what makes having this relationship that I have with you to be able to have these conversations so meaningful because I finally feel like I found someone that understands me and knows how to help me. Like, very specifically, like, take a lot of the same experiences that, uniquely, you and I have only had because of our love and our dedication to being involved with the AIA. You know, you're helping me grow now into this, like, seasoned professional that I need to be in my career and and and with my business. So I guess, you know, I know that's a lot about me. I feel like we need to pause and talk about you for a bit and see when was it.

B So if you didn't come into this at jury, I don't even know if it was that, Psy Arc. What where was the point where you were like, okay. I'm going to become active.

A So I didn't really find any engagement. You know, I didn't really thoroughly engage in school. But when I, started at a firm, I knew I needed a mentor. So I went to my local component my local component, AIA Orange County at the time. You know, is there a way for me to find a mentor for IDP? And then very quickly, you know, I found out I had somebody contact me out of the blue 2 months later and said, AIA California has these elections every year, and they are looking for someone who, who can represent all of the associates in Southern California. Somewhere along that line, and I don't know when it happened, I was introduced to John Kerry and Cassius Peeler, and they were doing an interesting thing for those of you who graduated in the early 2000 when I did. They had started this newsletter called Arc Voices, and they were they were making a lot of statements about how architecture profession, how the licensure process needs to evolve. And I was really interested in that because I was because I was just starting on that journey.

A And that relationship with John kind of got solidified because he was engaged in AIA California. So as soon as I made that step to state, I was just like, oh, this is the guy that is doing the newsletter. And he very quickly kind of pulled me in, and that's when I began to find my leadership community. So it was kind of, AIA California, but it was also, like, ArcVoices and the community that John and Cassius was creating over there of these advocates within the profession. And I was kind of seeing it was interesting because I was seeing this grassroots movement right in front of me. And I don't think if I if I hadn't seen it being built right in front of me, I wouldn't have thought like, oh, that is something that I could ever do.

B Yeah. And I and I those two leaders, John and Cassius, are very, like, driven people that are thinking I think about practice differently in general, and I've always seen them kind of as outside the box of architecture thinkers.

A Yeah. And I think they've both settled into their careers in different ways right now. And they're not, I would say, they're not heavy on the advocacy scene specifically on the licensure track. They're doing things their own way. But it was through AIA California and Art Voices that I got to learn know John better. And then, Paul Welch, who was the executive director for so long at AIA California, He's the one that, as soon as I ran for associate director, kinda pulled me along. He he pulled me along to every everything. I was the shy girl, and I still am the shy girl, that if you put me in a room of strangers, I, like, stand in the corner and wait very politely for someone to, like, come up and say hi.

A And if doesn't if somebody doesn't come up and, like, have a conversation with me, like, within 10, 15 minutes, I'm also okay slipping out the back door and kind of going away. But Paul kind of very in his own gentle way forcefully pushed me on to these committees, you know, helped me engage with these professionals. He put me on the Monterey Design Conference It's where I met Larry Scarpa for the first time. But without other people pushing me along, I would not have engaged as early as I did. I definitely did not engage as early as you did.

B Yeah. Well, you know, and interesting. So Paul is affectionately referred to as, like, the godfather of the AIA. He's like I don't know. He's just been such a consistent leader in in the AIA community that, mean, I can't think of a more impressive I mean, there's maybe a few, but, like, such an impressive mentor to, you know, pull you into thinking about, you know, using your voice and showing up and participating actively in these conversations in in a bold way. Like, he is he is such a kind person and such a major player in terms of, like, the AIA, especially California. Yeah. So he also played a really pivotal role in helping the AIA stay afloat during those years.

B And it's interesting because I found my way to Paul too after I had landed in California, and lost my job due to the recession. Paul helped me. Like, he he pulled me up to work for him, at AI California for a little bit to and that was one of my early consulting gigs was just going up there and working with AI California for a few months and helping Nikki out with a bunch of stuff. But I felt like I was directly mentored by Paul and Nikki also. Like, they they wanted to make sure that I didn't, you know, have to, you know, pick a different job because there were no jobs in architecture at that time. And so they were trying to help me stay in the industry.

A I feel like you found your way back to a a sort of community. So when did when did that happen for you?

B Well, I think, you know, the entire time that I was trying to figure out how how to start my career I mean, like, a major part of my story is just, like, the struggle that I had to face in terms of being a recent grad at a time when the recession had basically eliminated any any entry level jobs. So, like, the one job that I had found, which prompted me to move to California, like, basically disappeared because of the recession that caught up to California. And, you know, to be fair, I don't know that I was, like, really invested in, you know, entry level architecture work after coming off of AIS. But, also, the impact of the recession just made it impossible to get a job. I, like, sent out so many resumes. I mean, I, like, have a ridiculous number of applications that I sent out during that period of time, and it required me to get in very scrappy and to fight to stay in this profession. I mean, it would have been so easy to walk away from this industry. You know, my partner who basically has a master's of architecture, he he also got laid off during that time, and he ended up working at the Gap with a master's of architecture degree because that's like and he didn't even tell them that he had a master's in architecture because he needed a job so bad, and, like, he was working at he was going into the Gap at 4 AM to set up the visual display because that's what you could get as a job in related to architecture at the time.

B Like, there just weren't jobs for emerging professionals. And so now those people are in their mid-30s. And I always say, like, if you have people in your office that are you know, that mid career stage, you should thank them because they had to work their asses off to stay in this industry. They either went abroad or they got really scrappy and figured out how to stay in the game, but it would have been so easy to walk away. And so the way I navigated it was I worked as a consultant with Paul and Nikki for a few months, and I was taking the train up from Oakland to Sacramento. At one point, I actually I volunteered with Architecture for Humanity, and I was going into the office with them for a while really hoping I was gonna get a job there, but that didn't pan out. And then I I, like, even had a job offer that I thought I was gonna go work for this firm in San Francisco, and then they called me, and they were like, oh, no. The job isn't there anymore.

B I guess, like, the project had gotten pulled, so everything was super, like, difficult. Like, I remember being on, like, unemployment and trying to go to the grocery store to buy groceries, and I didn't have enough money to buy groceries. Like, it was just it was such a struggle in my life. And it's hard to summarize how hard that hit me. So finally, I got, an opportunity to go work with Sylvia Kwan at Quan Henney and Dennis Henmy hired me to come start doing marketing work. And I think marketing is and getting hired into that role is what saved me from having to give up on architecture. You know, it allowed me to come in on the administrative side and work for firms and still be in the profession. But on the back end, you know, like, I had my professional thing that was going on, but on the back end, like, the AIA stuff, like, I stayed in that because I knew that that community was really important to my career development.

B And if I could stay in the AIA and continue doing those different leadership things, that would balance out this, like, difficult time I was navigating professionally.

A Yeah. I guess I didn't realize the struggle you went through in your earlier career. I I think you and I met at a time when I had just rolled off the national board as chair, right, of the NIC? And I feel like everybody's like, oh, you need to meet the incoming president, Janine, and I think you are getting some of the same fee feedback. So so you and I had, like, a touch point at that point in our lives that we didn't we didn't really truly have a relationship at that point.

B I mean, you're making a great point. I feel like I kinda glossed over the stage where I was going back and forth to board meetings with the AIA. So, like, that I think that, like, really grounds where you and I have so much in common is the years that we went through sitting on the board when the AI board of directors was, what, like, 50 people?

A Mhmm.

B And and being in those meetings and really understanding the history of the AI in terms of, like, how it's evolved, where it comes from, how people used to make decisions versus the way they do now?

A Right. I think, you know, what was really interesting to me is somewhere between me running for chair of the NIC and back then, it was a 3 year term. So natural the natural progression is, again, I didn't have to stand up and give a speech in front of, like, I don't know, 200 students or how many people you had to. I just had to give a speech to a group of 20 people saying why I wanna be chair of the NAC. And the natural progression of that, I feel, pushed me along because you serve on the board and then you serve on the executive committee of the board. But that was but I landed there by natural transition, I guess, is what I'm trying to say rather than saying I wanna be on the national board. This is gonna happen. What is interesting to me is even even my short career at that point from, like, 2,000 2 when I graduated from undergrad to 2,007, I saw these reoccurring themes happening at AIA National, and I kept thinking to myself, well, why are we why are we always complaining about x y why are we always complaining about the work we've given away? Why are we always stuck in this this cycle where we hire fast, fire fast, and, like, that's that's what we have to do to maintain our our business.

A And I began the involvement in the AIA, and my interest and passion there became not not to discredit any of the firms that I'm working at, became more interesting to me than kind of the technical details of what I was drawing in the firms. And I just I didn't know why in my short career span, we were having the same conversations that I had even just 3 years prior. Like, why hadn't we move the needle? What is interesting for me is in my young architecture career, I feel like I was pulled along through leadership. Other people saw something in me that I did not see in myself. So I ran for associate director of Southern California. And then Paul sat me down, and he said, what's next for you? He's like, we have this regional associate director position. And as a regional associate director, you also serve on the National Associates Committee. So there is a connection between National and California.

A And then I got more involved there, and then somebody there asked me, well, are you going to run for chair? But it was never something that I planned on doing. It was something that I feel like I was pulled along to do or that somebody had to keep tapping me on the shoulder and reminding me, what is next in your your career. Like, what is the next step you're gonna take in this organization? I've never really looked at myself as a leader. I've more so looked at myself as somebody who has a broader view on the profession and has just always kept asking questions about why we do things a certain way we do and hope that there are other people out there that feel the same way that I do and are willing to ask the same questions. So we can stop this stop this cycle of hearing the same conversation over and over again, but never moving the profession forward.

B Yeah. I think one of the things that I've noticed about you the more I've gotten to know you is, like, that you're you're not afraid to ask the really tough questions. Like, you're not afraid to go against the grain in terms of, like, asking a group of people to rethink, like, why they're doing something and if it's really the best strategy on how to do it. And so one of the ways I've seen that show up is definitely in AI conversations. And I know that that's something that takes whether you see yourself as a leader or not, I think it takes a lot of, I think it takes a lot of guts to be able to be willing to be that person in the room. And so I think that people actually do respect you for that, that you're willing to go outside of what the group is saying to challenge the status quo.

A Thank you. I would say that I blame my dad for that. Now that I think about that, that inherited attitude was inherited from my my father. And it's the one of the things that I, like, find I would say equally most annoying about him sometimes in spite of my love for him. I I guess I always just felt like somebody needed to ask why. We we have so much to talk about. Every new leadership group that kind of comes to National, we have these shared struggles that are, endemic to the profession, and we have no problem talking about kind of those struggles and being in it and sharing that. But rarely ever ever do I hear a conversation saying, you know, well, what are we gonna do about it? I think when we talk about what we're gonna do about it, we talk about holistically, about we as architects are community builders.

A I think our solutions are driven purely through our projects. That, you know like, when we talk about doing something, we talk about changing the world. We talk about changing the community. And I guess I'm just kind of focused on, well, what is our profession going to do so we can stay around long enough to change the world and change our communities?

B One of the things that I think that we've benefited from being in in those conversations is just that I I think we think about things broadly, like how it's gonna impact the industry, how it's gonna impact, like, architects as a whole or, you know, a large geographic region. Whereas I think sometimes I notice that the reason I'm the outlier in some of my studio environments is I'm thinking about things at a macro level, the broadest viewpoint versus where I think when you get down to the studio level and you're practicing architecture, you're thinking about it. How does it impact my project, my immediate community, this, you know, block in my neighborhood and the people around it or, you know, how is this detail gonna impact the overall design of this building? And so and that, to me, I think is like a more focused point of view. But because I spent so much time in these rooms where we were talking about the global impact, I often am thinking about things in a in really big ways that I think overwhelms some of my colleagues sometimes. But I think it's a skill that, like, we've worked on, and it's and it's hard to explain what those environments of sitting in those board meetings is like when you have, an agenda item that comes forward and then, like, a room of 60 people debate it, and then, you know, we work towards consensus to vote on it. All of that is something that I can't explain in terms of trying to, you know, culturally translate it to people who haven't experienced that. And I and I frank frankly get, you know, really upset when people complain about AI because they don't one of the things I don't think people understand is that it's an organization made up of people, and I think about, you know, just to make the AI Leadership Institute happen, how many volunteers were involved in that? How many hours we spent designing and and coming up with the concept and asking people to spend their time to show up and participate. And all the labor that went into it, all of the resources, and then we had such a small amount of the budget of the AIA to and we grew it exponentially, but it came through proving that we could do it on a shoestring budget.

B And so, like, when I multiply that, just having gone through that experience, it took 5 years to develop this, like, really robust leadership program. And then I watch people complain about what the AIA isn't doing, and I'm like, you don't understand. It's like it's 80,000 members and we're all moving in different directions, and we're trying to build consensus where we can see it. And I feel like it's it takes so much effort to get things done, and it takes people showing up and really caring to get it done.

A Yeah. But I think what is interesting, though, is, like, you really led the chart. So the it was it was so wonderful, I think, to see the Leadership Institute come together. And and what I don't think what people realize is in the AIA to get anything done, you it's a community of people. It's it's we call it a committee, but it is a community of people. And, frankly, we work asynchronously and hybrid across multiple time zones. And with specifically with the Leadership Institute, you are having you were already doing this, like, physical and virtual mechanism for having a a conference. Right? And now that I think about it, I was just like, why aren't we having more conferences like that within that format? But I I was really excited to kinda see the evolution of, like, connecting various different physical communities more broadly on the same day where everybody comes together and and talks about leadership.

A And, you know, your interest in in the profession, I think, has always been geared towards leadership and giving voice to those earlier in the in the profession and ensuring that we we lift them up and that everybody has a pathway forward. You know, whereas mine has been mostly focused on, like, operation operations policies like, process and policies. Like, that's that's my spiel. Like, how do we keep how do we keep the business alive?

B Yeah. But you also I mean, like, another common thing that we have is that, you know, I worked on Leadership Institute, and you worked on Practice Innovation Lab, which, I guess, is about

A Right. And Right. And that that was an evolution. Again, that was I took something. So every 5 years, the Young Architects Forum is given a budget from AIA National to have a symposium that is supposed to inform their strategic plan for the next 5 years. And it just so happened that I was chair that year, and I literally had to sit down my my advisory committee and say, I have an idea. And I had to ask my vice chair, Larry Favroni. I was like, Larry, are you gonna be able to take whatever comes out of this and create a strategic plan around it? Because we're not gonna use this time to create a strategic plan.

A It was at an era where, you know, I had, at that point in my career, come out of my MBA and my MPA learning. I had all of these big ideas about how architects could essentially expand their services, but expand their services to remain relevant. But the key point of this too, though, is if you expand your services and get in earlier or remain later in the process, then that connection with your client offers you the opportunity to build more buildings in the end. So I'm not saying expand your services to not do architecture. I guess I'm saying expand your services to enable you to do the architecture that you wanna do because you keep the business alive. So the Practice Innovation Lab was how do we stop this economic cycle of there's always a time when our clients are building, and there's always a time when our clients aren't building, and what do we do when our clients aren't building.

B I see that. And I and I think my interest similarly on Leadership Institute was really the output of my MBA and a desire to create something that would help people move their through their careers and not have to struggle, like, as much as I did. But also, like, to, you know, the yeah. That, like, cyclical, cycle of the the recession that, you know, we inevitably are gonna hit. I wanna help people be prepared because what I watched happen in my own career was nobody cared. Like, I mean, people cared, but, like, everybody was fighting for their own businesses and their own things that were stressing them out at that moment. And I just felt like it didn't matter if I stayed in or not. That, like, at that point, nobody was tapping me on the shoulder and saying, hey, Janine.

B Are you gonna stay in the profession? Are you gonna get a job? Are you gonna, you know, get licensed? It just was like, yeah, this is normal, and good luck. I just don't understand that. I think people who spend the money that they do to get an education in architecture and then are asked to do the rigorous training and then the testing to become licensed architects deserve better. And there's a part of me that, you know, really respects that process, and there's a part of me that really resents that process because it's in a barrier to some of my career advancement. And I think that I just want to transform the profession to make it so that people don't leave or they don't feel like they have to leave or that they don't have options or that they're not supported or when they get into practice that they're not, ignored because they're in this interning phase where it's perceived that they don't add value to the firm. Like, I wanna see a profession where we treat people with respect and dignity and help them further in their careers through mentorship and the appropriate levels of support and celebrating their wins. And and I also wanna see architects become leaders on the end of that trajectory. Like, I want people to grow into the best possible version of themselves.

A That's really admirable.

B I feel like I'm, like, very optimistic, and then a lot of my frustration just comes from the realities of, like, constraints in the world and, like, the the realities that we have to navigate.

A Yeah. I mean, one of the good things that I've seen is because I'm I'm generally a pessimist on the profession. I think just because just because I've seen the conversations happen over and over again, and I constantly and I will and I will gladly keep asking the question, then what are we gonna do about it? But one of the great things about engaging with you and engaging in this podcast is that we have been able to bring on guests that are doing things differently, that are thinking about things differently, that are treating their people right. And as we think about you know, this is airing towards the end of season 4. As we think about those people that we're inviting to season 5, you know, you and I have always talked about the practitioners that are doing it right. And for all of the practitioners that I I really wish leaned into protecting the health, safety, and welfare of their people and kind of the drivers behind what happened at SHOP and we know are inherent in the profession, there is a silver lining. There are firms out there that are thinking forward, that are doing interesting things, that are offering the same unlimited PTO benefits that tech companies are offering, and they're making good money doing that and they're paying their people well and they're moving things forward. So I'm grateful to kind of the voices that we've been able to to to find through this process, searching for for the firms that we can kinda really lift up and say these firms are doing it right.

B Yeah. And, likewise, I think we started with a hope for investigating and researching this need for change, and now we're at a point where I think it's clear to us and some of our listeners some of the themes that we've been hoping to convey, around technology and cultural shifts and diversity, equity, inclusion, and transformation in practice models. I mean, there's so many themes that we talk about on the show, but I think that, the show has allowed us to demonstrate all those ideas kind of in a in a body of work where we're able to interview thought leaders, but also kinda sprinkle in some of the ideas that we have supporting that.

A Yeah. No. And and to that end, you know, people say there's not enough architects in the world. I would say that if we really open our minds to everything that all of our architecture students and graduates are doing out in the world, that the field has gotten a lot bigger and that our expertise has gotten a lot wider. We just need to figure out a way to embrace kind of everyone that has taken both the traditional path and the nontraditional path and ask the question, how do we help each other along the way? For me, it's never been, like, me being a quote, unquote leader. I guess it's me being me being this the annoying sticky wheel just kind of constantly asking, you know, what are we gonna do about it? I think we have a voice of here is our position on climate change. It could be much larger. We have a voice on here's our position on EDI, and we're beginning to build a voice around, the social economics and both the harm and the potential that architecture can create within communities to bridge equity gaps.

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B Tune in next week to hear the next tip from Arc IT. To take your security solutions further, contact Arc IT at www.getarkit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or speak to them about custom solutions for your design firm. Hi, disruptors. Janine here. If you're like me and have a lot of ideas about how to improve the profession of architecture, well, I've got good news for you. Here's your chance. NCARB wants to hear from you. Their ongoing analysis of practice study is your opportunity to shape the future of architecture.

B Share your experiences and insights from working in architecture and tell NCARB what you wish they would do better. Your feedback will help guide changes to the national experience and examination programs for architects and impact what being a licensed architect could look like. Whether you're an architect or you work with architects, Incarb wants to hear from you. Make sure your voice is heard. Contribute to the analysis of practice study today. Open a new browser tab and sign up atincarb dotorg/a0p. That's incarb.org/a0p. You know, you've watched the evolution of AIA over the past 20 years, so you know where it comes from.

B And I'm wondering, like, how has being involved in those conversations helped get us to this point, or how has that informed the way that AI is thinking about some of those conversations now?

A The one thing that AI is working on right now is that very particular people, I think, are pulled through that leadership track the way that I was pulled through. So that means that you have to be amongst a certain group of individuals to be pulled through. So in terms of bringing diversity of thought, we are definitely looking at how do we change and enhance the leadership pipeline to have more of these conversations at a broader level. The other thing that the AIA is doing, and I just came off of, I was visiting as a board I was visiting a board member, and the board was looking at, like, what what are the next topics that we we should tackle? And I was kind of happy that I was sitting in the back of the room. And one of the one of the big topics that they think is interesting is beyond the 2 big ones in our strategic plan being sustained, like, climate action and diversity and inclusion, being beyond beyond architecture. I think we've always talked there's always been this conversation of we are the American Institutes of Architects. We all know in the profession the path that it takes to be able to call yourself an architect. But we have always skirted around with There are so many people that we work with at building.

A We've talked a lot on this season about how the building is not a product of 1 individual. So how do we build an even bigger, more impactful community around every body that touches the built environment, but also those architects, not unlike people on our show that have gone off and done other things, that are still very much retain a love for the profession and the people within this industry. So so how do we build that broader community? What does what does beyond buildings look like? The narrative, again, is not we should never like, architects shouldn't be doing buildings. It's it's by having those bigger conversations, we will find more clients who understand that we are what we are doing on a broader level and to know that we are big thinkers that say, like, I need to bring that person in to design my next building. So so for me, the conversation about going beyond buildings actually enables architects to build more of the buildings that we want to build.

B Right. Because it's not that we're diverting our attention away from that. It's just that we're trying to create, solutions to the barriers that prevent us from being able to expand really great design or really great solutions at a bigger impact.

A Right. Absolutely. I mean, we always talk about how design is good for business, but then, you know, and this is kinda where I open with suction cut. Design is good for business, and we are designers. Yeah. We are horrible business people. So if if our clients are like, how are you managing? Our clients might be amazed by our design, but if all they see is that we are good at at design, that's all they will ever come to us for. But we talk about being these incredible problem solvers, so let's show them what we can do.

A Let's show them the other problems that we can solve. Let's show them that we think more broadly and we have bigger conversations so we can be that knowledge leader. Like, we we always I don't know how many times I've had a a leader a practice leader come to me and say, like, I wanna be that first person that my client picks up the phone for if they have a problem. But if all you're solving for is the client's building and that's all they know you're able to solve for, You're never going to be that person that gets called for any time they're not solving for a building.

B So I'm I can't help but wonder, you know, I know, like, we've talked about how we started in AIA. We've talked about some of our service and both of us working on different large scale initiatives. What would you say about navigating your own career development and finding your own fit in this industry as a parallel piece to also navigating your leadership in the AIA? Like, how do you see where you are today? Because you're in a unique role. I think a lot of people recognize that you're you're in this kind of they're like, how did she land there, and what does she do, and how does that relate to architecture? So how have you navigated that journey?

A So how I landed in this journey is, you know, I ultimately was after I came out of school, I worked in an architecture firm, a medium sized architecture firm that had a strategy group. Right? So most people think, oh, the only people that have the only ability to have a strategy group is at the big firms. Right? Because they think strategy, and they think you carry a lot of overhead. But that strategy group, I would say, you know, that we were cost competitive. We weren't as expensive as, like, the Deloitte and Touche's and the Baines and the big consulting firms out there. But the work that we were doing around real estate planning enable us to charge consultant rates that are higher on an hour by hour basis than typical architecture fees. So for me, that was such an amazing sounding board saying, like, here is the work that we're doing. It's in the realm of the built environments, and we are getting ahead of the game.

A We are helping our clients craft the RFPs rather than being the responders to the RFPs. And then I naturally rolled into, like, what it what does that look like from we we were essentially you know, in every instance, no matter who our client was, we were building out what is the what is the experience for their users? What is the what is our client's customer experience? And that rolled into what is the employee experience, which is essentially what I'm focused on at Slack. So it is process policy and operations and writing RFPs to find the architects. But but so much of that so much of that experience around the building, I think, is how do you inform the behaviors that you designed for. Right? I've talked to another a number of architects that they designed these great buildings. They never had the opportunity to be a part of the change management that needs to happen in the culture of an organization to use the building for what it's designed for. Because the building was designed for this great vision from this great leader. But somewhere along the way, all of the cultural and change management that, like, enables the people to do that, like, didn't happen.

B Right. Because the architect finishes the building, and they walk away because it's not they're not paid to do that.

A Right? And then this organization leader is, like, we wanna be more innovative, and we wanna be more collaborative. And you dump people who have had these, like, 1 on 1 to 1 desk assignments. And you say, like, here, this was modeled after Stanford Design School, or this was modeled after the Harvard Business School. Like, we know people are thinking and working this way. But the culture of the company is, like, if I leave my desk, I'm seen as not getting work done, so none of those spaces get used. So all great intentions, all great design, and a lot of occupants complaining that the new building doesn't support how they work at all. Right? So I'm here to help kind of bridge that gap and make sure the overall employee experience is one that it really is great for the employee.

B So can you think of a project that that shows up in in your portfolio?

A Yeah. So one of my favorite projects at MK Think was that we were invited to work with the Sonoma Sonoma County Library system, and they had a strategic plan. And the strategic plan said, you should be creating more programs around x, y, z. And they're like, okay. How do we do that within the walls that we already have built? Because we don't have the budget to create these new libraries. It was a lot of interesting research. It was looking at the demographics of each of the neighborhoods within the system and deciding, you know, this this neighborhood has a lot of English as second language learners. And, simultaneously, they have a lot of very large young families.

A So the program, so when you look at the the programs recommended in the strategic plan, that should be your focus. Like, let's move all of our language books there, and let's create more space in the building for children and family programming versus you know, at Sonoma. So you also have this other group of community, which is mostly retired individuals. Right? So, literally, the exercise is let's look at all of the resources of the library. Let's move them to the neighborhoods that make the most sense given on the demographics of that neighborhood, and how do we change the library into the community's hub? Because if you think about a lot of communities, community centers don't necessarily exist. So how does a library become the community hub, and how do you activate these spaces in new ways? And it was within the existing confines of the building because they literally just have money to, like, patch, pair, and and replace kind of on these buildings. Rarely ever do they have an opportunity to build new. And it's how do we make those how do we make those core and shell buildings so much more accessible and meaningful to the local community? Because because they've been there so long and it's changed over time.

A How do we think differently about how we use those spaces? So I think that the evolution of the workplace and no one has an answer on this. Right? I think everybody is trying to figure out what's next. But the evolution is kind of what is the workplace what is the office building? And now this new ecosystem of a work from anywhere world. Joanne Loy from Monograph. You know, Monograph has a remote culture. So she was she was I I was like, are you on vacation, or are you working? Because she was, like, showing me all of these. I I was looking at her Instagram picture and seeing, like, all of these pictures of her on a on a boat, on an island. But that's the new ecosystem of where work can get done.

A Right? It's not just the home. It's not just the coffee shops. It's not just the office. It's like a it's it's it's anywhere and everywhere. So in that new ecosystem, what does the office become? And before, everyone would come into the office, and we would pay a lot of money to fly people to hotels, to destinations, to have these quote, unquote off sites. So we're now focused on, well, what if what if everything becomes on sites? The office then becomes the place where community does get together in person. And what do we do? We were at 1 to 1 desking pre pandemic. So what do we do with all of these seas of desks, and how even as a large technology company, Slack, let alone Salesforce, doesn't have the ability to go in, full sell, clear out all of their furniture, and build something new for their people to come back to.

A So how do we take what is already there and best position it for different use and different, here here it is again, like the change in behaviors that are gonna happen when people come back to the office. And how how do we help them use the office differently because they're not coming in on an everyday basis? So those are the type of questions I'll be looking at answering.

B Well, I had the opportunity to watch you go through this evolution at Slack. So when we we finally there was a moment in San Francisco when we came together, and we were like, you know, we we know we're interested in the same things. We know we wanna work together. We gotta figure out how

A to work together. And this

B was, like, before the podcast was even really an idea. We were talking about just generally, like, how to collaborate. We started meeting, and and so I came to Slack. And at that point, you were still kinda new. And so there was, like, this moment where it was about Slack had generated this new building and had these amazing different workplace environments that I had you know, it was just like an it was, you know, exactly what you imagine when you think about tech companies, like just beautiful spaces, coffee bars, really cool co working spaces, and then these really awesome stations that you could go hot desk at or if you wanted to I guess that you could have your assigned seat, whatever. Then when the pandemic hit, I heard you, like, talking about, like, how how Slack was gonna handle the internal, seating arrangements. Like, that was, like, a whole phase that you guys went through with developing protocols and stuff. Meanwhile, you're still thinking about, like, new projects that are gonna be built for Slack and what happens to those, in different locations.

B And then now I think that the we're on the back end of the pandemic. It's like, okay. We're coming through and we're we're reenvisioning, like, what is the what is the new workplace environment look like? Because it's not what it was before. Yeah.

A And I think a lot of companies I I mean, it's no it's not a secret to say, you know, they a lot of conferences are talking about the evolution of the workplace, and this is really about hospitality. Like, if you think about if the office is a place that everyone comes together on an irregular basis, like once a quarter or twice a year, you know, rather than fly to an off-site, that's where it's coming together. Like, what is that experience? What is that experience for the for, in this case, a person that has never been to the office? So how do you reimagine that experience? How do you help managers think about meeting design differently? I think so many managers and this is true in architecture. You know? Like, the way that people are are taught is through their predecessors. So unless you, like, reach beyond that, like, you do the what they did. And in many instances, you become as you grow through your managerial career, you become this talking head at the front of the room. Right? And as your group gets larger, it becomes a lot harder to interact, and make sure when you bring 25, 50 people together, that everybody has for 2 to 3 days, that everybody has an opportunity to speak, to share their point opinion, to be a part of the strategic discussion. So how do you design we're talking about helping managers through meeting design, to help them design meetings, design all of these stakeholder engagements, actually, the architects are so good at doing at the community level.

A Like, those are the type of engagements that these teams that come together kind of need to have. Right? They need to bond, but they also need to have strategic conversations about what they're gonna do in between this time together and the next time together. So there's there's a whole opportunity for how do you design an engaging meeting that makes people so excited. You know? It's the office has not become this everyday amenity that you show up for. It it needs to be this destination that, like, I can't wait for the next 4 months when we get to go back to the office, or I can't wait for the next 6 months when we get to go back to the office. Like, that's that's the feeling that I want our employees to have now whenever they leave the office having after having such a great event. I've definitely already had talked to employees that said, we came together, and we had a meeting that could have happened on Zoom. You know? Why did I fly? Why did all of us fly together to do something that we could have accomplished on Zoom? So we need to we need to help people realize, like, actually how to use spaces differently, how to have engaging conversations.

A And and that's again, it goes I think it's full circle to kind of what you're teaching even through apostrophe about giving everyone a a voice, and and listening and then acting strategically on that. So so, yeah, I you know, you, shared recently kind of on section cut findings of a client engagement. You you were very transparent in saying how hard that was kind of for for you to be so open about that. I would love for you to kinda talk a little bit more about even your growth by working with other clients and the type of work that you hope to continue to do more of.

B It has been really hard to talk about Apostrophe and, like, all the amazing growth that I've had. I mean, because I think it's it's so personal, like, for me, this journey of getting to this point of running my own business. First of all, I wasn't a kid who was like, I'm always gonna be an architect. I was the kid who was always planning on being an entrepreneur, but I didn't know what that path would be to get there. And so when I started working in firms and especially after coming off of AIS, I don't think that my employer saw me the way I saw myself. Like, I was like, no one day I'm gonna run the company. You don't understand. Like like, if I work here, like, I'm on I'm on a leadership trajectory, and you just need to understand how to maximize my leadership potential because it's there.

B You just need to tap into it. But I felt like I really struggled between the combination of the linear path that is outlined with trying to become a licensed architect and just the general constraints of a firm, like a dynamic of a of a firm with, you know, what where you can be promoted at certain stages in your career and how people view you because of your age or, you know, what they perceive to be where you're at in your development. And I was like I I continued to struggle because I was like, you you're not you're not looking at the right skill set for me. You're you're judging me against how well I can use Revit or how many marketing proposals I can produce for you and win work. But we you haven't figured out is that, like, I'm a natural born leader. And if you position me that way in your firm, I'm gonna help your firm grow. I'm gonna help your team succeed. You know? And so, like, it was it was a struggle to land in that right role for myself.

B So I bounced around trying to recover from the recession and also trying to find the right fit in terms of my role. I think the closest I came to it was LMS when they had me in a marketing manager role, and they had such a great studio environment that allowed me to tap into that amazing, you know, community. If we go back to what I was talking about at the beginning of the episode where community was really my desired relationship with the studios that I engaged in, You know, being able to work with all of their different individual leaders and trying to help them maximize their leadership potential and bringing the studio together around different cross generational and cross team conversations was really fun for me. Like, I really thrived there. But knowing from the point when I went and invested in my MBA that I was gonna wanna run a business, I finally decided to go out on my own and set up my own consulting business to work with architects on translating some of the skills that I had to basically develop through, you know, my MBA, my time with the AIA, and working in all these firms into something that I could do on a reoccurring basis with different firms. And so that's been exploratory as I've, you know, fully invested in running Apostrophe. But I where I found my strength, and I think you're alluding to this through the case study you mentioned, is that, you know, I I had this opportunity to come in and work with a firm on mentorship, and it has resulted in this, like, series of working on a communication development program with them. You know, I've worked with a lot of different firms across the country, and I think what I love is being able to go back to that high level perspective and say, looking at the industry as a whole or looking across these different firms, like, these are the themes that are happening.

B It's not this is happening in an isolated experience in your studio. It's that this is happening across all of the studios or across, you know, architecture firms as a whole. Like, this is the same struggle that they experience. And so I've been enjoying being able to help people develop their leadership skills to foster conversations within the studio that really celebrate that community idea, helping people with the mentorship piece, helping firm owners feel more confident about being business leaders and thinking through the different elements that they have to navigate in that new role that's not just about being the architect that builds the building, but being the architect that builds the firm or builds their team. So I I finally feel like I'm in the right role for myself, and it took a really long time to get here. And it's really meaningful to me personally. So it's it's yeah. That's what makes it hard to talk about.

A But I think and I hope that you would also sell celebrate that too. Your clients were kind of pushing you in the end to share your work because they have seen the benefits of everything that you've done for them. You put literally out into the world, I think last week, a conversation about the struggle of a solo entrepreneur and kind of winning and and being able to, like, high five yourself. While it's very personal to you, like, I've seen your growth over time, and you are, you are finding very sturdy legs, I think, and a position on where on a gap that's really missing in firms, and and a lot more people are seeing that.

B What's been shocking to me is how isolated the entrepreneur journey is. Like, in the same way I felt isolated in the studio, I still feel isolated as an entrepreneur. And so it's hard for me to, reach outside of myself sometimes and bring people in because I'm just trying to navigate so many day to day ups and downs. I realized recently that I need to tell people what's going on with me in this journey because they, they don't know. They don't understand where I came from. They, like, they don't even really know the full story of my leadership. Like, I think even my AIA friends, they saw me work on the leadership institute. They know that I put my heart into things.

B I don't know that they're really aware of, like, the struggle that was happening behind the scene so much. Mhmm. And I wanna share in the victories of what's happening with my firm because I really see that and I call it firm, but, you know, my consulting practice is really about lifting this industry up and pushing it forward. And so I feel like if I can share that victory and and my own successes in that realm, it might help people recognize the opportunity that they have in their own firms to create change.

A Well, for me, this has been a a really great conversation. And despite having worked with you so closely over the last 2 years, I learned so much more about about your journey. So if we go back to the closing question, we've been asking all of our guests, you know, what is the one main idea or lesson on change needed in the practice of architecture that you'd like to pass forward to all of our listeners, be it architects, emerging professionals, and in the industry disruptors' listening, what would your kind of biggest takeaway be?

B I think after working in studios for so long, I would I really radically want to disrupt studio culture in a professional setting, and I think that's the mission of my firm. I don't like the way architecture studio in professional settings operates. I think we don't communicate enough. We don't talk to each other. We don't talk about the hard things enough. We're not vulnerable, and I wanna see architects be more compassionate in those settings to lift other people up. We're not in competition with each other. We're collaborating to build amazing things that are insanely complex.

B And the more that we can create supportive environments where we emphasize helping architects become leaders and just support each other through mentorship and career growth, I think, we're going to create a better profession.

A You

B know, we're gonna create better work in the long run. Likewise, I I feel like I need to flip this question back to you and and see what your answer is.

A I don't think my answer is necessarily gonna be profound. Like, I hope what listeners got out of listening to this conversation is that there's many path like, different paths people take to to leadership. I think there's people that naturally step into it, and then there's people that are reluctantly pulled along for the ride until they believe that they have found their own journey and voice in the profession and have the courage to then speak up about it. And the other the other thing that I would like our listeners to leave with is that you are never alone in this profession. I think we've both talked about throughout moments in our careers where we felt very isolated and we felt very alone. And oddly enough, the only thing we just we we just didn't talk enough about it because I think we would have found each other. I think we would have found that kinship a lot sooner. But, again, it's just it's just like one of those things that you don't you don't really talk about in architecture.

A You you don't talk about any ideas that you have from stepping away from the traditional path. You don't talk about, oh, this happened on my project, and I think we can do it better this way. I don't think our profession naturally invites those conversations, but just know that if you're having those conversations with yourself in isolation, there's a community and there's a group out there that is also thinking the same way. And, you know, at the very least, you know, Janine and I are here for you, but there is a bigger community out there. And I and and I and I know this is, like, not one thing. This is not three things. I I think, you know, for those individuals that are that fall firmly in traditional practice and are kind of like, why are these 2 girls called, like, having a podcast called Practice Disrupted? That everything that we are doing and everything that a lot of people like ourselves are doing is for the love of the profession. We may have left practice, but we still have a very deep love of you know, for me, not only the built environment, but the people that are part of building and creating that and designing that.

B Yeah. And I this podcast has given me so much. It's I love working on the show with you. I think it has been a place for me to redevelop my confidence and really tap into my voice and to give permission to have these conversations. Like, the more that I have these conversations, the more I've been like, okay. There's nothing to be afraid of in having these conversations. I think over the seasons, I've grown to feel more confident to say the things that I would've otherwise not said, And it's because I think, now I realize, like, how many people are out there that have experienced similar things or asking themselves the same questions. And so my hope is that this is a business of architecture podcast about rethinking the status quo and looking at the world in a different way.

B And we're just exploring all the ways that can happen with a hope that we can really transform this profession.

A Thank you to NCARB for their support of this podcast episode. Visitncarb.org/a0p. That's ncarb.org/a0p, and contribute to the analysis of practice survey today.

B Thank you to Arc IT for their support of this episode. Don't forget to visit get arcit.com/pd to set up your free 15 minute cybersecurity assessment or custom solutions for your design firm.

A Thank you again to our podcast partner, Monograph. Learn how Monograph can help you take control of your firm's financial health. Follow the link in our show notes or visit practice of architecture.com backslash monograph so that Monograph knows that you heard about them from us.

B Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes and others in our community at practice of architecture.com/podcast.

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B This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablmedia.com.

A Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.