Increasing Black Women in Architecture

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

C Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. Unfortunately, my Internet went out just before we hit record on this conversation. So I'm recording from an odd spot today and without my podcasting mic. Please pardon any drop in audio quality, but regardless, we have a really amazing guest with us today.

B This week on Practice Disrupted, we are bringing on Tiara Hughes, the founder of First 500. And even though we have only gotten to know each other recently, I have been absolutely overwhelmed with her support of our work on practice of architecture and especially practice disrupted. She is such an incredible cheerleader and so gracious and humble with her time. Yet as a black female architect in this profession, she has accomplished so much and I am so honored to have her in my life. I'm so honored to share with her our experiences of Drewry being Drewry University alumni together, and I'm so happy to have her on the podcast today.

C Tiara, welcome to the show, and thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and all of these different roles you're taking on in your leadership in life right now. And, of course, we wanna hear about your work at the First 500.

D Thank you so much, Janine and Evelyn, for having me. This is really exciting. Hello to all of the disruptors out there. My name is Tiara Hughes. I am a senior urban designer with Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, SOM, for their planning practice. So the biggest kind of reward and takeaway from that position is getting a chance to work with communities, that are very similar to the one I grew up in. So I get to travel all over the country and connect with communities and really kinda have this coauthorship around the designs and what we're producing for them. Secondly, I am a commissioner for the City of Chicago Landmarks Commission.

D There's 9 of us that serve on that board, and, ultimately, we are the deciders for the built legacy of Chicago. So it is not a small task, and I am the only black woman that serves on that board. And just to kind of add more icing on the cake, previously, before Obama became president, Michelle Obama actually sat on this board. So it is a huge deal to serve in this capacity, and I don't take it lightly. I am also an adjunct professor for a graduate level design studio, which is weaved in through like, in between kind of my work hours as an urban designer. It kinda all folds in together because it does create this kind of symbiotic relationship for the firm with the school and bringing in new talent. But we really are introducing students to more community oriented design, and how to solve real world problems. And then lastly, I am the founder of First 500, which is a global platform dedicated to elevating and celebrating black women architects and their contributions to the built environment.

D And I guess I'll tell you guys a little bit more about that as we continue. Thank you. Thanks again for having me.

C Okay. I just have to pause and say, wow. I mean, that is a lot of stuff. I'm so interested. What what drives you to be so engaged and involved in all of those leadership roles?

D Yeah. It's it's it's pulled from a lot of directions. I would say passion is kind of the key driver behind everything I do. For First 500, the the black women architects, right, and their contributions, they serve as such an inspiration to me and and young girls and black women who are interested in entering the field. You know, they have contributed and are the trailblazers that I look to, with everything that I do for First 500. We are also hoping to inspire, you know, those future generations and more black women to to come into the field. And then as far as my everyday work that I do, the communities that I serve really inspire me to. You know, like I said, they live in areas where a lot of our representation isn't seen in our industry.

D Right? And so I get to kind of stand in that truth and be the voice and be the representation that these communities are looking for and to really advocate on their behalf. And then for my personal experiences, I've really been sort of inspired by my students. You know? They are the future. Right? They're the next generation. They are the future leaders that are gonna kinda take take the torch and run with it and really shape kind of what our world becomes long after us. And so really is, a passion to cultivate that generation as well.

E So I I'm I'm kind of overwhelmed by everything you just said and all that you do. And as a person who gets told a lot that I do a lot, like, you do a lot. So so I'm gonna ask you a question that gets asked of me a lot, because I feel like you do so much more, at a broader scale to your community. How do you manage it all? How do you say no to things? Do you say no to things? And how do you really prioritize where you need to spend your time so you so you can still pay the bills at the end of the day while offering such tremendous support to to students, to the community, to black women architects?

D Yes. That's a great question. It does involve being extremely organized. I have my kind of my pad here right next to us. That really keeps me organized and keep my days pretty laid out for me. It also involves, prioritizing between each of the initiatives that I have going in my life. So, obviously, work takes up its 40 hours a week, at a minimum, usually more. And everything else kind of works its way around that.

D And then, also, throughout the day, if there are moments where there's intersections between things, like teaching, for instance, I am able to kind of weave weave multiple things together at once to, again, allow the time to overlap. So being very organized, to answer your question, and then organically finding those intersections between each of the kind of big buckets that I have going in my life.

C I'm kinda curious then how do you and if if you feel okay to share this, but what does your downtime look like? How do you recharge?

D Yeah. So usually, my mornings start with yoga. And that's like the calm before the storm. Right? And then it's with with a cup of tea and, like, diving deep into the news, like, finding out what's happening around us and what's happening in the world. Right? So that's typically my free time on a daily routine wise. And then when I'm traveling, you know, I am sightseeing. I'm connecting with people and really finding more intersections with the work that I do and whatever environment that I'm

E in. You know, a lot of firms right now have obviously EDI initiatives. And I think, you know, any any practitioner who runs a firm would be like, we would love to have somebody like Tiara in our firm. So what are things that other firms could do to set a person, maybe even another young black woman architect up for success and practice, but also kind of give them the freedom to have the platforms

D that's a great question. I think number 1 is trust. You really have to kind of foster her growth, provide her with those resources, and then trust her. You know, trust that she's going to, drive that impact that the firm is craving. And then I also think general more generally speaking, an equitable approach to resources and providing support is critical. Right? I think I think most firms take the approach of one one size shoe fits all, and that's really just not the way of life today. You know? I'm not gonna have the same needs as the coworker sitting next to me. And it's very messy.

D It's very muddy. And so firms really don't like to drive in that direction, but that's really where we're gonna have to go if we want to have every employee feel supported. And, most importantly, employees like myself who are doing the hard work and in addition to the projects that they're contributing to. And if I can also say too, I would like to see more focus on empowering our future black voices in those pipelines. I think, obviously, black folks are underrepresented. We make up 2 a half percent of all licensed architects. And so if we if we wanna see that number change, it is gonna require firms to really pay close attention to what the needs are. And and there's also that moment of someone may not know what they need.

D Right? So start somewhere. Right? Just have the conversation, and I think you can learn a lot from that and provide them on the right track accordingly.

C I was I'm glad you brought that up because I was gonna ask, you know, for some firms, they're still early in this process. I mean, you know, as much as we would hope that firms have made progress, the reality is there's definitely firms that are just starting. And, you know, you're saying to listen and to really understand specifically what the needs are. I'm wondering if if there are any specific ideas that you could recommend to someone who's listening that wants to build these conversations in their firm, but maybe at that early stage? Like, what what would be the best way to start?

D Well, I think take a temperature of the room. Right? See if your black employees are even interested in kind of being at the forefront of these discussions. Not everyone is, and that's okay. But and if they're not, then finding those critical voices in the industry that are comfortable enough to come into the firm and have that discussion with you And pay them for coming into your firm and having that discussion because their time is valuable, and they are helping you set your trajectory in the right direction. So they deserve to be compensated for their services. And, also, if I could drop a quick plug for NOMA. NOMA has a a group. It's called the president circle, and firms essentially sign on as sponsors and supporters of NOMA.

D But in return, depending on your level of sponsorship, you get a certain number of DEI training hours with that sponsorship. So you can certainly go that route as well. And NOMA has folks I I serve on the national board, so I know this, but they have entities that they've worked with that are have proven track records of working with companies to to facilitate those discussions and to evaluate yourselves. So that's a that's a good starting point as well if the firms really have no idea where to go.

E Thank you for that. I think we'll be sure to find that specific website on Noma National and drop it into our show links as well. So be sure to visit us on the website to get the links to the president's circle. I want to dive a little bit deeper into first 500. So the interesting thing for me about First 500 is this is something that that you created. I mean, not not to say that your contribution so what to as a teacher, as a commissioner is is any less, but those are entities that, like, you have signed on to be a part of versus something that you you you kind of created yourself. Tell me about its creation.

D Yes. Thank you, Evelyn. I oh, if I can start by saying I never learned about or met a black woman architect in academia. And I was in Springfield, Missouri, which Evelyn is very familiar. It's one of the largest cities in Missouri, and the minority pop population, which Evelyn and I both belong to, the minorities as a whole make up about 8% of that city. Right? And so coming from a place like St. Louis and then going there, it was culture shock. And immediately upon graduation, immediately, I couldn't get my diploma and book it fast enough for Chicago.

D But I relocated to a very, you know, just fast growing diverse city that I thought would open up those opportunities for me to connect with black women architects and learn the ropes from them. And that proved to be very difficult. You know? I was just searching. I felt like I was going in circles trying to find, you know, where where, you know, where their stories all resonate. Where do they all exist? Where is the centralized location? Who's telling their stories? Like, these were all questions that were going through my mind. And so I would find 1, and I would say, where are the rest of you? And she would say, oh, well, you know, I don't know. I I met her at this conference, and maybe you can try her, and it was just a mess. Right? And so then I did some more digging on my own, and I learned that black women made up at the time less than 1%, and there were not yet 500 living in the US.

D And so hence the name First 500, you know, that was sort of our marker. Right? And a quick way for people to wrap their heads around the figure and the shocking statistics that existed. Right? And so that's when I founded First 500 in 2018, and it really started as just the research initiative. You know, like, it was the first 500 project, and it was just doing the research and raising awareness. And then it eventually became a lecturer that traveled around the country. And, yeah, it's it it took off, but that's I think that's the the the foundation for for how it was created and why.

C What have you learned about yourself in pursuing that research and really leaning into that body of work that you wanted to understand better?

D I think earlier, you know, I mentioned black women, right, being kind of a a motivator for me. Something else that is a key kind of driver in my life is my grandfather. He was sort of the the father figure I had in my life growing up who raised me, and he got really sick when I was in college. And I felt like quitting. I wanted to go home. I was like, I need to be by your side. And he said, no. I promise I'll be there with you at the finish line.

D And that promise kept me going. Right? It got me over the finish line to finish college with honors to make him proud. And he wasn't there physically at the end because he was too sick to travel, but he was there virtually. Right? And and so upon graduation, we were back in Saint Louis. We had a conversation, our last conversation, And he said, now I need you to make me a promise. And he said, now I need you to make me a promise. And, literally, I would have given him the shirt off my back. Like, whatever.

D Like, tell me to jump off a bridge. I will go jump. Like, it was it was that sort of relationship that we had and the bond and just having someone who loves you unconditionally and and just has really kind of stood by your side through the test of time. I'm talking being homeless in college and this being the only person that traveled to the bank every month to send me funds for food. Right? Like, it was through and through. So whatever he said at this moment, I was going to do. And he said, now I need you to make me a promise. And I was like, yeah.

D I perked up and, you know, what's going on? And he and he's like he started with, I'm not always gonna be here with you physically. And I started bawling. I'm like, what are you what are you talking about? We just been like, no. No. I'm not ready for this conversation. And he said, but, you know, I need you to promise me that you're gonna live your life to the fullest. I need you to promise me that you're gonna travel like we said we would, like we were set out to do. You're gonna go live your dreams.

D You're gonna mentor young black girls, hence, First 500. You're going to be your full self in this world as if I'm right here next to you. And so that really is the impetus of everything. Everything, the passion, First 500, everything you see about me and how I'm contributing to our built environment and our industry. Right? Because I made that promise. And every day I wake up, I'm living that promise. So I've learned, and my mom tells me this as very, very often that he would be proud, and that I am living in that truth of keeping my promise. And I've also learned that anytime I step into a room and black women, black girls, anyone, people in general are saying that they feel an energy or they feel a light from me, I know that that's me keeping that promise.

D You know? So so those are things that I've learned about myself along the way, and those, you know, kind of keep me going as well in addition to the community and the black women and the black girls.

B I mean, that is so powerful, and thank you for sharing that. I mean, I've got tears in

C my eyes just listening to that. It's beautiful. You are living a legacy of out of love and respect for your grandfather, and that's really powerful. I mean, that just touched me very deeply. And I know that when you feel that responsibility to lift others up, other people in the world need that person in their life. And so, yeah, definitely, I can visualize you walking into a room and being that source of sharing that love and respect that you have for your grandfather with other women who need that level of support and being that shining star for them?

D And I never ever at you know, I I I can give you a quick example. One of my mentees, her school posted a job description for SOM late. Like, the deadline was posted late. So she applied late or tried to and couldn't, right, because the deadline closed. And I made the phone calls. I did what I needed to do, and now she has a full time internship with SOM in the summer. She's a black woman. She'll be in our New York office, and she's like, I have to treat you to dinner.

D I have to thank you. And I asked for nothing in return. Right? Because I have that. I had someone who was so selfless and showed me, like, unconditional love. Right? That I have that in my spirit and my soul, and I don't need it from anyone else. You know? I appreciate it. You know? And I just want her to do really well in the internship, and that's how she repays me. Right? So I'm sorry.

D I didn't mean for it to get emotional. Evelyn, I see you.

E I know. Well, Janine and I are very emotional people. Yeah. This podcast sometimes does does us in. So yeah.

C It was beautiful. I'm I'm so appreciative that you shared it.

D Thank you. Thank you for allowing the space for me to share.

E It's been so incredible to see you and to hear the the variety of different ways that you lift up people. I imagine that there's also been a progression of first 500 since its initial inception to reach more people, to give more voice to other black women architects. You know, you and I have talked about this. Like, this is this is not a one woman show, and you can I can just feel how selfless you are in in giving back to the community? So how how has the platform evolved, and where is it at now?

D Yes. So we are still at the root of our mission. It's it's all about black women in architecture, elevating, celebrating them, also encouraging us to infinitely increase our representation. So beyond that, we've expanded, into 3 pillars. The first one, you've heard about through and through since the beginning, which is raising awareness. I still travel all over. I just got back from Dallas doing a first five hundred lecture for a women's brunch, for the DFW NOMA chapter. Can shout out to them.

D So that's happening. And since the world is opening up, I'm back sort of doing that boots on the ground, raising awareness. But since then, we've expanded to 2 additional pillars, the first being resourcing her road map. So, actually, on our website, if you click under resources, there's chronologically a list of resources that support our youth. So babies, children, you know, we they love YouTube videos. Right? Like, stuff that's for them through to licensed professionals and what networks they should be plugged into and everything in between. So our students, like design competitions, scholarships, fellowships, right, and everything that we can think of that's specifically tailored to her. So if there's a DEI scholarship, for instance, as opposed to a young professional architecture scholarship.

D So the scholarship's being specifically targeted to, a black woman. Right? And kind of narrowing her resource pool down in that sense. And then the 3rd pillar being building a strong community, and this really stems from the profiles that's there. It's solely volunteer based, which is great because I think what we've learned through the research is whenever we're not authoring our own stories, details get missed, things get missaid, or there's just false information out there. Right? And so we are really enabling her to use her voice and tell her story the way she wants it to be heard. And you may have a profile that's really like, I'm passionate about construction administration. You may have another profile that says, I'm proud to be a mom. Right? And that's okay.

D Like, either perception is okay and how we should remember them. Right? And so building a community in that sense of empowering her authorship, but also in the connectivity and organically building a network. Right? So each of the profiles have links to websites as they chose to put them or links to their social accounts. And so if student a comes on to the profiles and they're strolling through and they say, oh my gosh. Emani Dixon is in Chicago, and I really want to reach out to her. They can click on Imani Dixon's profile. She may have a website listed, but she has her socials too. Right? So they can go and find Emani on Instagram, follow her, DM her, or find her on LinkedIn.

D You know, connect with her there and then direct message her on LinkedIn. And, you know, it's it's sort of that organic system in that way. So, it helps them kind of get more following and more visitors to their work as well indirectly. But all in all, building that strong community, and there's definitely more to come on that pillar in the works.

E Yeah. You and I talked about that. That pillar has actually gone outside of the US. Right? So it's begun to gain, like, global traction.

D Yes. So we have 4 countries represented so far, which is really exciting, and it's it's organically growing. So as much as I want, like, you know, all the countries, all the black women architects, that's not gonna happen today or tomorrow. But I have been excited to just watch it grow slowly and organically and the outpour from black women on being excited about this space.

C So when you are invited to speak with firms or, like, you just went to Dallas Fort Worth, what types of conversations are they asking you to speak to? Like, are there key themes that you typically are trying to address in your your outreach?

D Well, I think it depends on the audience. Like, this one in particular was a women's brunch, so the talk was very much tailored to black women, but also women, and having just raw candid conversations about that. But if, like, a Gensler invites me, for instance, which I've been to several Gensler locations, it's a different talk. It's more of a call to action to this audience because I know that I'm gonna be speaking to a mostly majority crowd, and it's not gonna be the same as speaking to a majority black crowd, for instance. So I'm tailoring it in that sense. And I just wanna do a quick plug for the talk too because it's evolved since the pandemic, so I highly recommend folks reach out and book us, to come to their companies and organizations for a talk.

C Yeah. We'll put a link in the show notes so that you can find your way over and make that connection. I'm glad you're talking about the customization of that. And I'm curious in, in firms where the conversation is multi generational, many different races, many different perspectives, and probably a little bit of hierarchy from, you know, the industry's history. Are there key questions that those audiences tend to ask that might be pertinent for listeners to understand?

D I think one question that I get is, you know, how do I recharge or how do I, like, keep going in the face of so much adversity at times? And that's a great question. And I think everyone I encourage everyone to, reflect on that question for themselves, especially if you're an an activist or into advocacy work in our industry. For me, it really is like like NOMA conferences, for instance, like, just being in that space for a week of kind of blocking out the rest of the world, being around other black architects, not even just black, minority architects, you know, who have been othered in our industry for so long. Also, retreating to travel. It's another thing that's very helpful, for getting that recharge, but I do encourage people to figure out what that is for them and to to really find that space and use it as often as they need to because mental health is real. It is something that I pay close attention to for myself. So I I encourage us all to do that.

E Take a step back just to the pillars, you know, and kind of where where is the pipeline most broken? Where do we need to do the most work right now? I see so many either AIA local components or so many people want to build that initial pipeline. But in my my head, I'm thinking, you know, if it's a bumpy road once they get here, like, which end should we be fixing first?

D Your inclination is correct. I think exposure early on is still key because what do they say? You miss a 100% of the shots you don't take. Right? So if there's kids that just aren't learning about architecture, then we're we're missing a 100% of them. Right? Unless at some point along the way, they, by happenstance, get introduced to it like I did. Right? So that's always gonna be key, and I think there is a lot of people galvanizing around that right now, Evelyn, to your point. But, however, the most critical space that I'm finding is the young professionals post graduation, in graduation as well as post graduation. About 5% 5 to 6% of our schools have black students, yet 2 2 a half percent of licensed architects are black. Right? So we're losing 2 a half to 3% some you know, somewhere in that pool along the way.

D Right? And so how are we focusing in on that audience? How are we capturing them and making sure we're not losing them? Right? We are getting them across the finish line of licensure. So I think there is this kind of criticalness with that particular group. Because once you commit to it, we should all be their biggest cheerleaders and making sure they have the resources they need to get to the finish line and to be active contributors to our industry because, obviously, they have an interest in it. That's why they chose it for profession.

C We've had several practitioners reach out to us that they listen to the show. They're active in a studio environment. They're working full time. What's one thing that they could do right now or in the next month or in the next few months that would make an impact? Is it is it volunteering and going out to meet with students that are in k 12 or getting plugged in with the existing programs that are out there already? What does that look like?

D Yeah. So I I have to drop another plug for NOMA. NOMA has something called the project pipeline, which is it's younger. It's for middle school kids and some of the larger chapters high schoolers as well. ACE mentorship is for high school students. Those are pretty solid as far as active contributors to our younger crowds. But but in addition to that, just roll up your sleeves and see how you can volunteer at university. And furthermore, get to know the students and learn what their needs are.

D A great friend of mine, which is really kind of she's influencing kind of where we're driving First 500 whenever we do start our campaigns and how we're gonna be using our funds. You know, there's act there's a lot of scholarships out there. Scholarships are very specific to tuition. Right? What about her books? What about her room and board? What about all the additional architecture fees that come with supplies and building models and, you know, travel when the studios have to go to different locations? Those are the things that we need to plug into as well to make sure that she has what she needs. I'm gonna say they have what they need because this is for all minority students, not just her at this point, but make sure they have what they need. So finding those unconventional ways to plug into the gaps that exist right now.

E Since this is such a small population of our profession, right, and to really move the needle on that, it's not only gonna take members of that population, but allies supporting that population. So you gave some, like, very broader tangible things that we can do maybe outside of the organization itself. But is there anything that we can do to support the work that you're doing specifically with First 500?

D Absolutely. Thank you for asking. Follow our socials. We have everything. So Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever your preference is. We recently launched our interview series on Instagram where we're doing these live interviews with both black women architects and allied professionals every 1st and third Tuesday. So I highly recommend you check that out and tune in. And we've also began our profile spotlights for, students.

D Like, we want to recognize their work and what she's doing in academia as well. So definitely check that out. I would also say book First 500, book a talk for your company or organization, and keep an eye out for our fundraising campaign that's gonna launch this year. And then lastly, spread the word. Spread the word. And on that second one, whatever you guys are spending, the proceeds will go toward our furthering our mission, which is, again, elevating and celebrating black women architects and raising awareness about their distinctions. So we are supporting their paths to licensure all along the way once we organize ourselves and get that going. But spread the word.

D Spread the word, especially to black women architects so we can get their profiles and to our younger audiences as well so that she can be aware and see folks in the industry that look like her and who and who are successful.

C I wanna come back to you as a role model and a leader. You know, at the top of the episode, you were talking about the work that you're doing at SOM and and your ability as a senior urban designer to go into communities and really think about these design challenges and opportunities. I'd love to hear from your point of view, what what is that role for you? What does your work look like? And how are you received when you're in those communities and projects?

D That's a great question. You know, it's it's not the same for any single project. I'll start with that. But if I can zoom in and kinda give you an example of one of the recent big wins of a project. We have a project that's, in Nashville. It's in a community, again, very similar to where I've grown up. The north part of Nashville is underinvested. And we all know if we don't, Nashville is a booming city.

D Right? Like, it is busting at the seams. Every time I visit, I see cranes everywhere no matter what time of year it is. It's not like Chicago where winter, there's no cranes, and then summer, there's cranes everywhere. It's cranes all year round every time I visit. And working with the community, sort of my role on the project has been really an engagement strategist. Right? Like, I am kind of setting the programming for how we're gonna address the community. Also, what sort of forums are we setting up to empower their voices, to allow them to speak about their needs, what they wanna see out of a design, and I'm facilitating all of that when I'm there. I'm also the sort of main contact for the community and from the the leadership of that community, which in Nashville, they have districts and then they have council people.

D So the councilwoman of that district, I'm her direct contact, and it really has been such a rewarding process. And I would say this because and and I would leave you with this one kind of memory, and that's one of the first kind of in person workshops that we have with the community. You know, we were we were at it. I mean, we were deep into the trenches. It had been about 3 hours. You know? I am, you know, drinking water at this point, because I'm parched. And one of the community members, I'm taking questions at this point, and he says, Tiara, this is great. He was like, and and I hear your excitement, and you're getting me excited, but why are you excited about this project? And I was so taken aback by that and also so excited by that question because I got to really reflect on a community in St.

D Louis and the inner city that I grew up in and how when I go back home to St. Louis, the the community I was raised in is no longer there. It is now flattened to baseball fields for all private high school and how emotional I got visiting that site in college and seeing that my childhood home was no longer there. And I said, that's the reason why I'm excited because we get to preserve your community. We also get to bring great amenities and things that I wish we had when I was growing up to right here to your backyard for you to use and you to kinda have ownership over. And, you know, his response to my answer was just his whole face, his whole demeanor lit up, and he's like, well, I'm excited now. And so that is why I do what I do and how I contribute to these projects. And like I said, it's different for every project.

D Some projects that might be designing, some projects that might be doing more management work, but really the engagement piece is the piece that I'm most passionate about.

C Was your undergrad in architecture?

D Yes. Mhmm.

C Yes. And then how did you make that jump into urban design? Because that's interesting too.

D Yeah. I actually started working in Chicago. I was a contract worker at HOK for a while, and then I went to a smaller firm because that was an experience. I went to a smaller firm where I was also doing architecture, and then SLM was the reason I made the leap to urban design. I interviewed with a partner. My first meeting with him outside of industry events, he said, so are you interested in urban design? And I said, Doug, what is urban design? And people are mortified when they hear that because they're like, you went to an interview and asked that. Yes. I did.

D I wanted to know what what my future trajectory was gonna be and what I'm signing on to. Right? And Doug's response was, I'm so glad you asked. Let me tell you. You know? And he was just so it's like you you felt the energy and the passion pouring out of him about urban design, and that's what really roped me in. Hearing it through his lens, but also the projects that we get to work on, you know, and the communities that we get to work with. All of that is really what kind of tied me in. And I've always been a big picture thinker and visionary person, even with my work in school, so it all kind of worked together. I think, also, in addition to finding your passion, like, don't give up.

D That's and this that's so cliche, but my mantra that I live by is if there is no well to drink from, dig until you create 1. There are so many spaces that I've stepped into as the only or the first or, you know, just unheard of kind of moments. You know, creating the equity action committee for a firm like SOM and really guiding their equity practice has was unheard of. Like, it's it's something that never been done before. And so don't be afraid to step into those truths even if it's uncomfortable and even if it's never been done before because you're creating the space because there is a gap. So never give up. If there's no well to drink from, dig until you create 1. And the last thing I'd say to my younger folks that are listening is if one door closes, 3 will open.

D You know? Keep speaking. Keep showing up. Keep allowing yourself to explore and challenging us. Right? I think that's another thing. When you step into a space, you don't have to conform. You can always challenge what that norm is. And so I really, really encourage our younger folks to do that.

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