Leading on Climate Action for a Positive Future

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, In thinking about the many layers of disruption in our world, climate change is one of the biggest disruptions of our time. Organizations like the USGBC, International Living Future Institute, and the AIA are all working to advance policies and programs that place architects at the forefront of designing solutions through climate activism.

B We've invited Kira Gold and Lindsey Baker to join us on our episode dedicated to climate. Keira and Lindsey cohost the Design the Future podcast, a show that features women who are living, learning, and leading towards a sustainable future.

A For more than 30 years, Keurig Gold has been a communicator, catalyst, and connector working from multiple perspectives. As a writer and member of the design media, on staff at and as a consultant to firms, and as a volunteer leader at AIA and beyond, she has led the redefinition of design excellence as inclusive of climate action, health, and equity, and emphasize that human and leadership diversity is crucial to advancing all those goals. She's also a senior fellow with Architecture 2030 and was named as honorary member of the AIA in 2022.

B As CEO of the International Living Future Institute, Lindsay Baker is the organization's chief strategist, charged with delivering on its mission to lead the transformation toward a civilization that is socially just, culturally rich, and ecologically restorative. She is a climate entrepreneur experiencing and launching and growing innovative businesses and has previously worked with Google's green team and WeWork. She also previously cofounded a smart building startup called Comfy, which grew over 5 years to 75 employees and a global portfolio of clients.

A Like us, these women teamed up to launch a podcast during a pandemic in an effort to foster change on a topic that they care deeply about. We're thrilled to interview them today and invite them to the show because we know that they're doing great work, and we're excited to share all of their great ideas with you. So welcome to the show, Kira and Lindsay.

C Thanks so much for having us. Yay.

D Yeah. Thanks for having us, you guys.

A Absolutely. We typically just check-in at this point and see if either of our guests would like to share anything else that we may have missed in the introduction. So if there's anything that you wanna add about where you're at currently in your work or your emphasis, let us know.

D I would say only that it is such an exciting time to be working in climate action in the built environment community. There's just a lot happening. And so maybe this is a message to people who are thinking about getting more involved in that side of things, but it's, there's just so much enthusiasm, optimism, and energy happening in that part of the the community right now. So maybe just that.

C Yep. I agree with Karen.

B Lindsay's nodding her I was gonna say Lindsay's just nodding her head in agreement. I didn't know she had any more thing else to add.

C Oh, so much more, but we'll get into it, I'm sure.

B So let's start off by asking just a big general question, if we will. What is the state of our global climate, and can either of you paint the picture of where things stand and where they are heading?

C Yeah. Well, I can start. Hopefully, folks know a little bit that we are not exactly winning the fight against climate change right now. You know, it's been an incredible set of decades in our global community of people trying to get their head around what it even means for the climate to change. And it feels to me like, you know, people are starting to realize with wildfires and hurricanes and, you know, even sea level rise actually being visible in our lives now, that it is a real threat, and it is really going to change the way of life for everyone on the planet and has changed the way of life for many already and and has ended the lives for many already, people, animals, plants, all the things. So it's a serious, serious threat, to, everything about our planet. And in terms of sort of where it sits today, I guess in one way, you could say, well, how are we dealing with it? Are we dealing with it well? Are we getting on it? And the answer is, generally speaking, no. We've started to make a little bit of progress again, you know, with the UN and the, intergovernmental panel on climate change coming together every year with the conference of parties, COP, you know, COP events, COP 25, COP 26, that kind of thing, people do get together and set goals.

C Lots of companies have set goals around trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, etcetera, things that we can do to really slow the progress of climate change. But, for example, in the building industry, it's worth saying that if you look at the global building industry as a whole, we have not reduced the overall greenhouse gas, emissions of the building industry, yet. We've slowed down the emissions, somewhat, and we have made the global building industry more efficient. So in other words, we have more space than we ever have before in the world, but we have an increased energy consumption per square foot per square meter as much as, you know, as we used to. So buildings are getting more efficient, efficient, but because we're building a lot more buildings, the the overall amount of greenhouse gases, carbon emissions, in other words, that we put out into the world as a building industry, is still going up. And if you are curious about all those numbers, there are there are UN reports. There's one that the UN Environment Programme puts out every year. It's called the Global Status Report on buildings, and it tells you, are we turning the tide? And we are not.

C So, you know, it's just one way of saying, yeah. This is still a big challenge. We're all still figuring it out. The building industry is no exception. You know, many industries are still increasing, carbon emissions. The world is still increasing carbon emissions every day, and, and it has dire consequences. But that said, it doesn't have to be that way. There's no reason why we have to be destroying our climate the way that we are.

C There's lots of solutions. They're picking up momentum, and it's an exciting time to to help to move the needle.

A I think that that's a key point, Lindsay, in that it doesn't have to be this way and that I think the intention of this conversation was really about opening up a dialogue about the possible solutions and the bridge between climate and architecture. And so I'm very excited to hear from Kira who is, you know, sort of the historian of a lot of the work that's been done behind the scenes with many of the architects involved with the AIA in terms of climate. So, Kiara, can you frame the context of the major starts and barriers that architects have faced in advancing mainstream conversations on climate and practice?

D Sure. I'd be happy to. Janine, that's a really interesting way to put that question. I think the biggest barrier in this profession is really our own mindset, which has a lot to do with the client service construct in which we exist. This leads a lot of architects to say things. And I I just, honestly, I still can't believe how many times I hear this still in 2022, that their clients aren't asking for this and that that is the reason that they don't, design more climate responsive projects, just as a straight up thing. And I I I dispute this respectfully. I believe that all clients want value and that it's every architect's responsibility to help the clients understand what value in this moment in time and going forward is.

D And so a project that is not climate responsive is not a responsible building to be creating. It is not a good value to that client. And I'm I'm being very glib and broad about this, but I do really believe that it's true whether it's a institutional project where they already think about projects as having a long lifespan, or even a commercial project where they don't necessarily think of those long lifespans. There are still multiple risks and threats ahead that relate to climate. And so it's not just energy efficiency, although that's quite important, but there's so many issues that should be assessed and should be a part of the conversation and should be what the architects are coming to the table with, and it should not be in a separate little silo. These are the sustainability solutions over here and they're going to cost X, Y, and Z, and they're separate from this design solution that I'm providing you over here. That's just a ridiculous, bifurcation of those issues. And we need to move past that.

D We're, we're way, way beyond that. And many architects see that and they it's in the same way that we wouldn't consider, trying to separate out other issues, social issues, or other things. It should be all connected. A quality quality design should be addressing those issues and bringing value to the table.

C And if I could just add one thing because I'm not an architect by background and and, I mean, not even close to an architect. I'm not very creative at all. And so I wanna just say as well that I think architects have a really uniquely important role to play in the fight, for climate action because architects are really good compared to most people at thinking about how to solve these big complex decisions, envisioning what it looks like 10 years down the road, drawing that out literally or figuratively for other people, and then getting us there. That's what you all do. It's what you've been trained to do. And when you have other conversations with other types of folks, other types of brains, they're not always that good at this stuff. And I do think that's one reason why when you look at green building movement more holistically or the whole community of people that came together around sustainability in our modern era anyway, a lot of the people that started those conversations were architects. It's not a coincidence.

C Right? It's not because somehow architects make all the important sustainability decisions for a building. Let's be honest, they don't. But they do have a really specific talent and skill in starting conversations, framing them, helping people to get out of sort of the status quo, and changing our conceptions about what's possible.

D I totally agree. And, you know, it it's interesting too that firms there are some examples of firms that have found a new way to operate and function in the context of this profession, even though there's that client service model that I was referencing. I was going to give a few examples, but there are, I hate to call out only a few, but there are firms that have done it and have figured, I mean, they have disrupted their practice basically to reshape around these issues and not just climate, but all of the issues that climate touches because, of course, climate action as a whole is really includes social issues and others, and it has to touch all those all those things. So, I mean, I do think, I guess I can at least name a couple, but, you know, one example would be Mass Design Group, which is this year's, firm award winner, and they have complete, they have a completely different model that doesn't even look, you know, it's, it's a very unusual model. There are others that are like less extreme examples. But they are figuring out ways and having the conversations with their clients about, you know, about value and about what, what they're really, you know well, to your point, Lindsay, bringing that systems thinking to it and and just and not separating it out, I think is important.

B I think it's nice, Lindsay, to have somebody from outside of the profession kind of remind us of what skills we bring to the table, and we aren't like, those muscles that we aren't necessarily flexing in this conversation. And then, Kira, your counterpoint to it, and it's something that Janine and I discuss on the show all the time, is that we we tend to get in our own way. Right? So how do we get out of our way, like, own way? You know, so the next next question then I really have to ask is, what factors do you believe have actually tipped the conversation going forward, you know, in spite of ourselves?

C Yeah. I mean, one of the good, I guess, the pieces of good news is that, like, at this point in the way that we build buildings, architects, don't really have as much of a choice to engage with climate as they used to. It's becoming more required for in lots of ways. The biggest change, I think, that if you're not tuned into already, you should be is financial markets. It's the fact that increasingly, whether it's the SEC making suggestions, there's a sort of a potential new requirement for publicly traded companies to report on their climate risk. So that's a financial market mechanism. But just increasing attention and care that banks and other sort of asset holding organizations are putting to the question of what an asset's impact is on the environment or what exposures it has around climate risk. All that stuff that goes into financial markets definitely impacts the business of building buildings and will have increasing sort of specificity.

C You know, it used to be, like, that if a bank cared about environmental stuff, they would just wanna see that a company had a maybe a sustainability report, like an annual sustainability report that they put on their website. But I'm now hearing from folks that are involved in these financial markets that they wanna know, what is the embodied carbon amount in the buildings that you built. They want to see that in your spreadsheets when you are essentially being considered for their portfolio. So it's really starting to get into the levels of detail that I respect, you know, and ultimately that we've been aiming for. I should say this is all part of an elaborate plan of ours to make it exposed. That we we want to value real estate based on how, good it is for the environment, how healthy it is for people to be in it. You know, not just location, in other words. Not just whether it has a marble floor or, you know, whether it has, you know, fancy exterior lighting, but, like, is it a safe place to be in, and is it doing a reasonable job of being a a global citizen? So those are big external pressures that I think are are are serious and are having an effect on on the profession now as far as I can tell.

D I agree. And I think it's, it's a huge, I mean, to your point, we have been sort of waiting for some of that. And I still think that when the insurance industry tips, that one will be a much faster and it will be immediately impactful across a lot of sectors. But we're seeing, you know, ESG is so important, and what that looks like in terms of how that's, you know, again, if, if designers and architects can help their clients deliver on their ESG goals and, and protect their properties from ever being Brown assets. That's gonna, that has tremendous value. I mean, that is, that will translate very quickly. And so we are not, this is, you know, we've really moved a long way since 20 years ago when that whole notion, it was just, there was too long of a pipeline between those two things. We weren't really getting there.

C Yeah. You know, one last, I would say, thing that's tipping the conversation forward is I think we've built enough resources and sort of patterns and capabilities within the field of architecture now for people to to do sort of climate sensitive design work. And, you know, especially with groups like Mass Design Group but many others that have proven that it's not somehow counter to the other goals that architects, have in terms of their work. I think it's becoming a question of why not. Like, why wouldn't you care about the future of the planet while you're doing your work? It it used to be a little bit like, oh, this is an added thing to think about. And I think it's maybe partially generational, but I think it's really shifting and to not a question of of why, but a question of why not.

A You know, I wanna go into a multipart questions, so bear with me. But you both find yourself often in rooms with a lot of the leaders in the architecture industry who've been in these conversations for a very long time. I mean, that's how I bet I met both of you. So there's there are people who have been in this fight, and I call it a fight, for a long time, and they know what the science is behind this work. I think one of the greatest things that I learned about sustainability when I was coming through practice versus school was the difference between generalized sustainability goals that were first emerging when I left undergrad, related to the USGBC and lead credentialing versus architects that are designing, you know, on the forefront of what that is, which is net zero design and just a full embodiment of total integration of climate design, really thinking about nature and how it works with the building. So I guess I see this disconnect in practice right now, and I think that was part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation for the firms that are new. And they're kinda on the beginning of this journey towards green design. There is a quite the large learning curve, and I think a lot of people are coming up against this with the new design awards requirements, especially through the AIA.

A So I'm wondering where should they be investing their time and energy to get going?

D Yeah. This one is is close to my heart, because and I I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but they I really do think that there are lots of tools and things that are important about delivering projects in this realm. But the most important thing is is to really understand the opportunities within each project and and not to separate it from the design process. And I think, you know, so sometimes before you get to like energy modeling and things like that, you what you really want to look at is just the design process itself. So and any firm could could take their own design process and look at the intervention points that would relate to a variety of sustainability issues: water, energy, daylight, views, all a whole host of well-being things, a whole variety of them. One of the easy ways to do that, and I am going to sound like an AIA promotion here, but I do think that the AIA framework for design excellence is a really helpful, very loose, framework that any firm of any scale can use on any project. And you would, you only use what fits to it and it gives you just some kind of directional feelers to get in there and figure out where you can do certain kinds of interventions. And the greatest thing about that too is it really, it, it is a reminder that it is fully integrated with design.

D It is not a separate thing. I mean, it is, we're not talking about adding solar panels to a building. That is not what this is about. Right? And that whole era of green bling and all that stuff is hopefully far, far in our past at this point. I think case studies can really help. And again, of course, because I'm affiliated with a committee on the environment at AIA, I think the top ten case studies that we've been assembling for 26 years now, are very helpful. They cover a range of project types and scales because it's always good to get into the nuts and bolts about how people did certain things. And there's a section in there that's really about lessons learned and things that didn't work, which I think is, can be really useful too.

D And I think one thing that I would really urge all practices to seriously consider is the importance and the value of reuse. I mean, we really, that is the big shift that we need to make, in terms of just when, as we begin to think in terms of total carbon and, you know, including embodied carbon and everything, we really need to think much more carefully about reuse as a part of our palette, part of what we're doing. And that's can be especially hard for some small firms that are coming out of school and want to do the the sculptural new work and all of that stuff that I know students and and emerging professionals are most tend to be most enamored with, but there are some amazing reuse projects happening all over the place. So there's a lot to look at.

C So I also wanna highlight this thing you were saying, Janine, about, like, the difference between what was created to sort of define some of the basic like, so I I should have said I I was at the US Green Building Council when LEED was kinda first coming out, and we we were really trying to give people kind of the easy button. You know? Like, that is that was the idea, and I think in some ways, it backfired a bit because people were like, well, this is a dumb easy button. Look at how dumb this is. You know? And now it's like, oh, you know, this is kinda dumb. But we we try like, it wasn't that we it wasn't ever that dumb. We just thought we wouldn't be able to get anybody interested in doing this this really thoughtful, deep work if it wasn't easy to start with. And so that's kind of I I I think, unfortunately, that's where you lose a lot of architects is that now it somehow has gotten that reputation for being kind of dumb. But, I mean, think about the work that, like, Francis Carey Carey Architecture is doing now of in terms of the the depth of consideration that they put into not just the question of the materials that they use in the buildings, but the labor and the craftsmanship that is created as a local economy when they bring, vernacular building materials to their projects and try to create that.

C And I know, you know, Mass Design Group is doing the same thing. Right? It's about it's about communities. It's about fabrication. It's about new fabrication techniques. It's about local economy and local materials that are natural, that come from the earth, and that are nontoxic by nature, etcetera. Like, all that stuff, It's all really fascinating and really complicated and ultimately really heartwarming work. The when you get into, like, the the edge of it, as you were saying, Janine. Like, that cutting edge stuff that we do is not a checklist at all.

C And so if you're feeling a little bit like, oh, this is not inspiring, this checklist, maybe just put the checklist aside and start asking yourself bigger questions about your community, about your own health, about your children's health, and see what you might be able to do with that.

A Yeah. I just wanna clarify. I don't I don't think that lead was necessarily not enough. I think it at least started the conversation in a way that, previously, like, when you go back in the history of these conversations, there was a limitation to the traction that was being able to happen. I think lead created a system that people could wrap their head around, and then what we saw was wide adoption. But I also feel like it became a checklist and something that people could cram through their marketing and be like, yeah. We do lead. Yeah.

A We're green. And I think now having worked for a firm that really puts sustainability at the forefront and of what they do, like, it's like there's such a difference when your design starts with this question. It's it's a completely different building. And so I think the disconnect in my mind is really about where this shows up in your value system when you start talking about design.

C Yeah. And I agree too. I mean, I will say, like, I I love everything that has come out of those early years of of working on LEED in the US Green Building Council and the community that it that it brought up. I think we I think we still did a really great service to the industry, but it is I mean, yeah, I think I I I still have those moments sometimes when people are like, ah, it's a checklist, And I'm like, man.

D You know what's funny about that is I have always been a little I'm like, it's not a replacement for design. Yes. It's a checklist of some things that you should remember, like, not to leave out of the mix. Like, I I don't I don't know that I I think that's a weird, insult. Like, if the the people that say that are insulting that whole system and doing it and trying to sort of distance themselves. I don't I don't mess around with that. It's just a dumb checklist. Right? Yeah.

D But you still want your project to do all those things. That's why the list exists. Right? Like, I'm like, okay. I don't know. I think it's a little odd. Yeah.

B I wanna bring us back to so I know, Kira, you said you're being a broken record throughout all of this conversation. But what's interesting to me is I've been talking to a lot of members. There's definitely some middle managers who are like, you know, I'm I'm deaf I'm interested in getting more involved and, you know, bringing this value system into the firm. And then they go to the website, the AIA website, and they're like, okay. Do I join the 2030 commitment? Do I create a sustainability action plan, which involves first reading this 50 page document on how to create a sustainability action plan? Do I sign the architecture and design materials pledge? Do I take one of the 3 AIAU certificate adoption, like, series? You know? And and, frankly, you just pushed all of that down and said, no. You just actually need to start thinking more holistically about how you integrate this into your design.

D Well, so I would say yes to all those things. But I do think that for the person that's working on a project, the framework is the easy, is the easy path in. I mean, that's for people that are like, it's too complicated. I don't know how to bring all this into my project. I can't do all that web research, you know, like water. I can't figure that out. No, you can just, it is, you can do this. Like that is doable.

D You're right. There's, there's so much more. But my hope is that whatever the pathway in, if the framework is the pathway in, then all those other things, they would also want to do them. Because I think, I mean, I think the commitment is important and it has moved a lot of firms. It has helped a lot of firms shift organizationally just to do that sustainability action plan and then, and, and figure out how to reorganize their project teams so that they can actually, you know, operate in that way.

B Yeah. And I'm not saying that any of that is less important. I I'm just saying that it's very easy for somebody to get overwhelmed with everything that is out there and know where to start.

C For sure. Yeah. I wanna say one thing about that that I think is important to remember. I talk to students about this a lot when I teach. It's okay for it to be overwhelming. Like, there like, water systems are really complicated. Energy systems, how does a solar panel work? How do we heat and cool buildings in the most efficient way? So I think actually in some ways, again, it comes back to this question, like, is it easy or is it hard to get involved in sort of climate work in architecture? I actually think it's okay for us to say it's hard because you have to learn some stuff. It's a it's a profession in and of itself.

C People get PhDs in it. So it is important for us to try to make sure people know how to sort of navigate and and start to get involved. But the cool thing about opening that particular door is that it's a lifelong practice of learning about all sorts of fascinating aspects of buildings. I don't think I'm ever gonna get to the point where I understand every little bit of it. And and so, you know, you can make a profession out of that. You can distinguish yourself as an architect that has more of these technical skills or understandings of how how buildings can have a positive impact on the environment. But you know what I mean, Evelyn? It's like, yeah, it's confusing in some ways because there's a lot there.

D For sure. And I didn't mean to suggest that the the framework is, you know, it isn't a dumbing down exercise. It's there are little entry points. To your point, Lindsay, that's another funny thing. So architects are involved with a lot of things that are complicated and overwhelming. How about codes? I mean, you know what I mean? Like, that's not exactly unfamiliar territory for architects, right? So it's, yes, there's a huge knowledge base. There are lots of, and you'll get a chance if you dig in, you'll, you'll, there'll be people you can consult with about all the different areas and and all that. So, yes, it's overwhelming, but, like, in a good way.

D It's a big topic. It's a really rich topic and it intersects and dovetails with design. That's where I think the framework is helpful to get people to understand it in the context of how they actually deliver design.

A I think there's a really strong community around it and you all have been producing great resources too. So, yes, those initial steps are probably gonna be challenging, but I think once you get into it, like, you'll discover there's so much content and there's so many friendly people out there that would welcome you into the conversation and show you exactly where the resources are.

B Yeah. Absolutely. I mean but I just think, you know and, Janine, you and I run up against this all the time. You know, right now, if I talk to a firm principal with how much they have in the pipeline and, like, the state of the great resignation or reimagination, however you wanna provide it. The only thing that's top of mind right now is, like, how do I get more talent in the door? And I think all of us in our various different ways are pulling threads for the firms to try to get them to think more broadly about culture and values and retaining talent and professional development. And here's sustainability, and, oh, yeah, the greatest software. It's all a bit of a fight for attention and just, like, trying to figure out, not in a dumb down way, but, you know, how do we elevate this this critical need, but also clear kind of the headspace that I feel like firm leaders need to have in order to truly engage in this work.

C Yeah. I mean, my thoughts about that actually are probably in a different direction than you might, than you might be imagining I would go, but my work these days is actually to try to make it, mandatory that firm leaders think about it. You know? In other words, we're trying to change codes and standards and the laws of the land so that it isn't an option. And that's the case for all industries. Right? I mean, if when you think about corporate leaders around the world, just people who run companies, normal small businesses, whatever they are, as you said, like, a lot of folks are just trying to get by, and I think that's one of the things that the environmental movement hasn't done very well in the past 20 years. We had a very neoliberal construct on things, just to kind of throw a political term out there. The idea that if we made it cheap enough and, a differentiator and an employee attractor to care about sustainability that, everybody would do it. Right? And so we've been in the green building industry really focused on the idea, like, okay.

C Well, we're gonna just make it so easy and so fun and so cool that people will do it voluntarily. But as you're saying, it doesn't necessarily mean that it gets done. It doesn't necessarily mean that it gets to the highest, you know, priority list, and yet our the future of our species depends on it. So my my ankle these days is like, okay, we tried to make it cheap. We tried to make it fun. I think we succeeded, and also it's still not working, so we're just gonna have to require it now. But the good news is that thing we're gonna require by law is cheap and fun. So I hope everybody gets on board and just does the thing now.

C You know? Like, it's it I mean, I we and we are past that point. I mean, especially in terms of energy generation. Like, when we actually talk about, you know, the climate stuff, it is going to be required that buildings are electric and not burning natural gas. It is already cheaper to develop new wind and solar generation than it is to develop new fossil fuels. So like this this stuff is it it is basically like the horse has left the barn as they say. It is it is cheaper. It is easier. So now we're just gonna say you have to do it, and I think that will help because I think you're right.

C It's just, it's too hard to make this somehow something that everybody needs to prioritize on their own.

D Yeah, and I do think that it helps with the hiring stuff too. I think that mission driven firms do attract a certain, I mean, I don't have any numbers on it, but there, there are certain people that are looking for that. They, they, they want to do their work. They want to work in this field, but they would like to do it at a place that they think is, you know, speaking to a little bit broader point and purpose. And I think that, you know, that's, that's always gonna be a segment of the community. It's not the whole thing, but it's part of it.

A So, Lindsay, I wanna come back to you've mentioned your current work experience. Having worked with so many organizations, we're interested to know what makes you really inspired about this work and drives you to keep going. And, also, I mean, you're still attached to the building industry clearly. So I'm curious. You know, tell us more about that and if you've seen progress during the span of your career.

C Yeah. I I've seen a lot of progress. I mean, it's sort of like we were talking about that, like, when lead first came out, we were just trying to get people to understand the basic concepts. I mean, that was in a time this was 20 years ago that if you ask someone what a green building was or what it meant to think about sustainability or climate, they would give you, like, 15 very different answers. And that was and so we've come a very long way. People have a much better sense of how to take this seriously, and I love that. I guess from my perspective, yeah, I've recently been coming to terms with the fact that it's kind of a funny thing to be in an industry when you're not actually like I'm an environmentalist. I started off my career as an environmentalist and that's what my training is, you know, reading like politics and economics and, you know, I mean, agriculture, whatever.

C Like, that's what we learn in school, and it is very different from what an architect learns about, in school. But I love hanging out in the building industry for a few reasons. One is what I mentioned, which is that it's a really creative community. It's a really cool community to be a part of just in terms of the way like, having lots of friends that are architects is fun. I'm not sure if you all experience that, but it is. They're really delightful. They generally dress well, you know? Even if it's just black that's fine, you know, but, like, it is. It's a really cool community of people.

C I think that's also like for some reason I sometimes I go to these very interesting places that are very, like, reductive of what society really needs, and like we need food, we need water, and we need shelter. And there's not a whole lot more that human beings need to to get to get by, like we need culture. I definitely believe that, but it's really nice to be in the community of people who provide shelter for others. It's a really inspiring group And and I think that's the other thing, you know, it's the other thing that makes me think about the importance of our community as it relates to the climate fight is that, you know, a lot of industries are just kind of extractive and consumptive. You know, it's just wingdings that people make and sell to each other. But, like, people need a roof over their head, and people need a way to stay safe, and people are increasingly going to need places to stay safe as the climate changes, and we have more significant weather events that are gonna make it harder for people to survive. So, like, we've got a really important job to do. And it's just it's more complex.

C It's more interesting to me. I think that's one of the main reasons I've always been drawn to buildings as a solution in climate is that it's not just about the question of how a building reduces its carbon footprint, which is, you know, the case, right, if you think about a car or a leg, I don't know, lots of other things. It's kind of just about trying to reduce its negative impact. But for us the work we get to do is much more inspiring than that. It's about how do we reconnect people to environments that make them healthy? How do we restore health? How do we restore community? How do we get people to interact more with each other? All that stuff is part of the challenge that the industry has that makes it much more fun than just like a how do we how do we produce like deodorant that doesn't, you know, emit carbon or something like that. Like, this is cool. This is the coolest climate solution work I can think of because at the end of the day the impact you have on people's lives is so profound. So so yeah that's a little bit about I guess why I like it and why I come back to this community because yeah I've had these, you know, wanderings that can't tell you how many different jobs people threw at me that were sustainability executive jobs when I, left WeWork.

C And I just decided I wanted to be with my people, and it was these people that do this work of of shelter and of thinking about the way that we can shelter each other in in in a in a way that is restorative for for all of us and for the planet. I mean and, you know, I would say that about the larger design industry. Like, you know, you were saying, Janine, If you're interested in doing climate work and you're in the design world now, if you're an architect and you're trying to get into this world, I find this community of folks that do climate work or, you know, sustainability work in buildings to be just some of some of the best. I mean, you know, I would also say it's more heavily, diverse in terms of gender. It's more it's probably more diverse in many ways as a subset of the architecture community. It's a really thoughtful group of people. It's a group of people who are generally very politically aware, you know, all that stuff. It's a it's a cool community be to be a part of.

A They're really smart too, and I also think they act with urgency, which is the other thing I've noticed is, like, they're action driven, proactive people because they have a great sense of urgency. Yeah.

B You have talked a lot of about advocacy and policy. There's been arguments that, you know, who's kind of going to move the needle first on this? Is it going to be the public sector? Is it going to be the private sector? What major advocacy efforts in either of those sectors should firm owners be paying attention to? And I I just you know, and I I wanna layer on top of this, and I can't remember the gentleman's name. But, you know, there was just recently made a huge donation to Stanford University even to start a brand new climate school. Are Are those things moving the needle as well?

C Advocacy plays a huge role. Right? Like I've been saying, I mean, we're we're changing the laws right now. And, and I wanna be clear. I think one of the things that's important to note here when it comes to codes, if you've read the New York Times articles recently about the way that essentially the oil and gas industry is trying to influence, building codes in our country, like, read those articles. Check that out. It's important. You need to be aware of it. I think everyone has a responsibility to be aware of the role that oil the oil and gas industry is trying to play in your job right now.

C They they do care, and they are putting money towards it. And so we have a responsibility to care and use our voices and put our resources behind what we want the rules and regulations to be around our profession. There was a great podcast a few months ago that senator Sheldon White house did with some friends of mine who are involved in climate work, And they asked essentially, you know, what's going on with climate legislation and how can the building industry help with, like, you know, the fight against climate change. And senator White house said you need to get your professional associations, your trade associations, the folks that are involved in Washington DC politics to show up and support climate legislation. And he basically put it in this way that just was very straightforward. He was like, look, whether or not you know or care, you have people in Washington who are saying things on your behalf about federal policies on all sorts of different things, climate included. And so if you care about climate change and you care about your children's health, then you should know that there is a person representing your profession right now speaking for you. And you if you haven't told them what you would like for them to say on your behalf, you might consider doing that because right now and he was saying I think this is not true of the AIA.

C I think AIA has done a great job, but not every trade association and professional association that represents folks in the building industry is doing nearly as well as the AIA is doing in talking about climate and working on these issues. And so it's it was just this great reminder, like, you might not be aware of it, but someone is telling your congresspeople what you think. So care about that, you know?

B No. I just wanted to interject there because I think in one state, and I was talking to a a case executive, like, they haven't adopted the most recent code because the homeowners building association, right, is essentially saying this is a play by architects to get more money to implement sustainable solutions.

C And no one shows up after that to say, hey, that's not true. You know, like, often Right. That's sort of what happens. Right? And so, yeah, it's not just Washington DC. It's at the state level and it's at the local level. So I I mean that's just one good way of say of like of articulating this point that like you may choose to not get involved in politics, but that means that someone else is doing it for you and telling politicians what you think. And if it's not correct, then that's on you. You gotta you gotta show up and tell people, tell your associations, tell your local governments directly what you think.

C And we're trying to make that easy for folks. We are, as a nonprofit community, as professional associations, we do try to make it easy for you to use your voice. But, just to be clear, it is your voice whether or not you choose to to show up and and and use it.

D It is important locally. And I I know that it is very hard to make time to, you know, plug into local politics as an architect. That is, I mean, pretty tough to find those hours in the way the hour of the week looks. But it is important for firms to try to find a way that someone in their, in their team can plug in a little bit and understand what are the built environment performance standards that are being adopted at the local or state level? And what is that? What are the implications? That's part of getting, that's part of the education process that would be just the same as you would do around other code things. Right? You still that's still part of the responsibility of the architect to deliver on those things. But in this case, being involved with it ahead of time helps put you at the table when it when the decisions are being made so that you can make sure that A, that they're intelligent decisions that are that are smart for your clients and for the profession, but also just to be a part of that dialogue instead of subject to it later. I mean, we really have to insert ourselves there. And I think, I agree, it's hard to fit into this profession, but we have to find a way.

C Well, and I think it's it's also like, think about it as an individual. Like maybe that's the like we all try to take a couple of hours every year or every other year to vote, because we see it as our civic responsibility. And that's all we're really asking for here when we talk about a firm level of involvement in these kinds of issues. Like, just see it as your civic responsibility because it is. It's the same thing. It's just a question of whether you're existing as a citizen and an individual or within the, you know, within the hat that you wear as a business.

A So given your focus on raising the voice of women in green design in particular, I wanna hear your thoughts on the impact of this growing community of female leaders.

D Well, I can start on that because, so I wrote a book in now it's so long ago, came out 15 years ago, called Women in Green Voices of Sustainable Design. I wrote it with Lance Hosey and, we wrote that because we were seeing this, that this, this, the sustainable design movement was far more gender diverse than design and, and really AEC and real estate generally. There were tons and tons of women at all levels, and it was otherwise more diverse as well. So we just wanted to explore that question. And I think that that, you know, it really opened an exciting conversation, that has continued in many ways. And I think it's really honestly about more than gender. I think it's about the range of perspectives from every angle. We need all the voices, all the viewpoints, from every angle.

D We need all the voices, all the viewpoints, and we need to come at them with a real range, even of leadership and, work styles to, to get at them in the way that is going to be required to really crack this, you know, the climate challenge that we're facing.

C Yeah. And and I'll just say, I I you know, when we started the podcast and we decided to focus on women, it wasn't again, it was sort of not about gender entirely, but what I have found anyway in my career is that because I'm in the business of transforming the industry of changing systems, typically, what you see is that people who are most enthusiastic about changing systems are the ones that it isn't working for as much. And those folks spend more time trying to think about what a better future could look like. And so for us, that tends to be women and people of color who are in these positions of not being able to do the work the way they wanna do it. So I think that's kind of what's led us to the kinds of conversations that we have on our podcast, and it's still proven to be true. Like, I'm I'm ready for us to interview a broader diversity of folks anytime. We're just like, we have such festivity. We have such a long list of women still that we wanna talk to about all of the interesting work they're doing to try to change the industry.

C The yeah. I just I never get tired of of that of of that line of inquiry, and, and it just feels fruitful every time, every conversation.

B And we mentioned the name of the podcast at the top of the show. It's Design the Future.

C Design the Future. Yeah.

B And we'll be sure to include it in our show notes. So if anyone needs a link there. A question that we get asked often, and one that actually we enjoy is since since Lindsay and Kira, you both mentioned the podcast, is what what have you learned by doing the podcast? Or, alternatively, what's one of your most favorite stories that has come out of doing the podcast?

D Well, one of the things my sort of, and we're, we're at our sort of 2 year mark right now, which is pretty amazing. And we didn't, we did actually start it before the pandemic set in, but we didn't start broadcasting until we were in pandemic mode. So it feels like, it feels like it started with the pandemic. It'll always have that as part of its origin story, I suppose. It's just been so enlightening and inspiring to connect with people that are really being intentional about resilience, adaptation, regeneration, all these things that are really the next things for this whole movement. It has been such a gift in that way. That's not really a specific story. It's just my feeling about having been engaged in that.

D And I'm just, you know, it what a gift. What a gift. That's really it. Yeah.

C And I mean, I do. I also feel like it's been a gift. I mean, there were some dark days there, you know, where, like, I didn't see anybody other than my partner for, like, a couple weeks, but I would get to have this one little conversation every week, with a different wonderful person. So there's that. You know, the other thing I think that I've learned that has been really important for me is that I think, you know, all of our guests have been amazing, and many of them, I would say, part of what has made them amazing is that they have this worldview that is beyond their profession. So they're not just listening to the news about architecture or only reading with within the realm of their work. It's been really heartening for me. I think for a lot of us during the pandemic, our our sort of perspectives broadened a bit.

C Like, we we started to think about things that we'd never thought about before. And so what I've loved most is that our guests have oftentimes been reading about or thinking about issues in the broader dialogue, economics, politics, racial justice issues, indigenous rights issues, etcetera, and, like, bringing that to their practice. And so it's just been inspiring to see that I think some of the biggest change that's happening in our world, in our profession right now, is coming from folks who've thought really broadly about what's happening in our world and have then figured out some intervention to make within the profession based on that really broad like, you know, they're reading books that are not at all about buildings, not at all about the profession, not all about design. And they figure out a way to make a bridge to what they've learned and read to their work. That I just love, and I think it's what we need more of.

A So you both represent careers and individuals who have followed followed your passion through to, like, reach the highest maybe not the highest point, but you're on the path certainly towards as much knowledge as you can gain on this topic. You know? So we like to ask this question to all of our guests, and I'm excited to hear how you take it. But we wanna know what is one main idea or lesson on change needed in the practice of architecture that you'd like to pass word to the architects, emerging professionals, and industry disruptors listening?

C Okay. Well, one of my favorite lessons on change I think this is definitely my favorite lesson on change, and I wanna give proper attribution here to Octavia Butler, is that the world is always changing, and you are always changing. And we have this extraordinary privilege to decide how we're going to change. And so it's really not a question of whether you change as a professional, whether you change as a human. It's which direction you head in. And so that is what I love about the work that I get to do is that I get to ask myself every day or every week or every year, what do I want to get better at? What aspect of the world do I want to try to improve? Who do I want to lift up? And I and I get to do that knowing that it's my decision every day about who I lift up. I'm gonna lift somebody up. I'm going to make progress in some direction.

C And so it's that mindfulness, for me anyway, of saying there is always a better choice. There is always a more sort of world positive choice that you that you can make. There's always a more restorative choice. It's just a matter of reminding yourself that that is a choice that you make and trying to figure out what the answer is every time, but never believing that change isn't happening, because it is.

D I love that, Lindsay. That's an important mindset one for me. Mine sort of dovetails with that because what I would say about the practice of architecture, the thing that I think is the most, maybe could help with the mindset shift a little bit, is the fact that every act of design, everything we do in our work and in our community, it happens in a context. It's an, it's a time, it's a place. For us, it is a warming moment. Right? We are in that trajectory right now. So as a design community, we're making choices every single day, about building details, about energy sources, about car charging stations, about who we work with, who we collaborate with, the whole huge team that we build with. We have all these choices, have energy and supply chain implications and human health implications, implications on community resilience, things about passive survivability and emissions.

D I mean, it is overwhelming as we have discussed. You can get caught up in thinking that you don't, that a lot of architects, I think, are, are very caught up in thinking that they don't actually have a lot of power in the whole system that we exist within. But in fact, they do. They're making those choices every day, and they all have implications and long ripple effects. So I think understanding what that agency is and being able to shift that towards a positive impact for people, for the, for the owner, for the community and for the planet is really what architects can do if they choose to. Right? It's just those choices are gonna happen one way or the other. You're make it you are taking a climate action in every single day. So it's just a choice of which direction you're taking it.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast.

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A This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablmedia.com.

B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.