Career Pivots

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B This week, we are covering a lot of things in one episode with my good friend, Teneal Buttenhausen, who I knew previously as Tenille Jones.

A Yeah. I actually in prepping for this episode, I didn't realize how long the 2 of you had actually known each other, but you guys go way back. And we finally got to meet up in person at a 22 and had dinner together next to the iconic Chicago River.

B Danielle and I, we literally just had a prep call for this last week, and she's like, we've known each other for 2 decades, which is pretty crazy. And we were introduced by Jeff Gill, who is the current executive director for AIA Orange County. And this just does go to show you that the AIA is responsible for yet another great friendship of mine. I don't know what our today's selves would have told our yesterday's selves about where we are today, and perhaps we'll find out on the show. But I was interested in bringing on to Neil because her career journey has had just as many career pivots, arguably more than mine. And we get we can cover a lot of different things in this topic because there's people out there that I feel are still actually looking to define their own career journey right now. So we're gonna cover everything from managing your career, more specifically, how it might not be a direct path, but also ask Tenille what, you know, what made her decide to pivot along the way?

A We're also gonna dip into a little bit about podcasting and technology and definitely some architecture in there along the way. So, I am looking forward to this, and maybe we should jump to Tanille, to kick it off. Tanille, we always we always ask our guests to introduce themselves briefly. So tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're working on right now.

C Well, hi, ladies. I'm so excited to be doing this with you guys, and Evelyn's right. We go back decades. There have been many kids, many moves between the time that we met and today. And so it's really neat to be on your on your podcast. So I'm super excited. Well, like I said, my name is Tenille. I have a background in architecture.

C I have a degree in architecture from Arizona State University. I graduated in 2,000. And, I have been in this industry for a really long time, and it's kinda surprising, actually. I currently work for a awesome company called MicroDesk, and, we're a platinum partner with Autodesk, and we provide software solutions, project consulting, and software training for Revit, AutoCAD, Bluebeam, etcetera to our clients. I'm the current client, client success manager in the West and Central US. And I work on building relationships with our clients, really bridging the gap between what happens after the purchase, after the training, and really building those relationships. And making sure that everything is going smoothly and helping them throughout their digital transformation process. So while not traditionally practicing architecture, I still have a hand in changing the built environment, but on the digital side of business.

A I'm curious just if I can piggyback on that question. Like, what what's the typical size a firm would be before they would hire or work with someone like you to come in and help them with their digital assets?

C We have clients that are really big, large firms with multiple offices, across the US. And I actually have a client that has offices outside of the US. In the UK, they had just opened an office in Mexico, they're in India. So the size is not really the the bigger issue. I I think that, you know, any architecture firm or general contractor or engineer needs the software to complete business. And so we provide that software as a reseller, but we also add on how can we bring best value to that software. The software is not doing you any good if you're not using it to its fullest potential. And I'm sure that all 3 of us know that, you know, you can use AutoCAD as 2 d or you can use Revit as 23 2 d and not as 3 d.

C And you're not getting the full value out of it. And so we come to firms and ask them, how can we help you do this faster and better?

A It's interesting that you ended up in technology because I know you spent time early in your career actually working in a traditional firm setting, doing architecture, doing the drafting, and now you're on this other side of your career where you're kind of at the high level helping with the digital technology, systems inside a firm. So I think we wanna get really in the weeds on your career path and wondering if you can give us a high level view of all the roles that you've kinda had over the year. When Evelyn's talking about all this pivoting, what does that look like?

C You know, I always jokingly say if it could be done to a project, then I've probably done it over this last 20 years. So I probably could single handedly entitle a project, draw it, contract it, do the CA on it, and even be there for the ribbon cutting because I've worn all the hats along the way. And so when it comes to design and construction processes, I've pretty much seen it. So as you know that I I have a degree in architecture. So I started very traditionally in a firm. Very traditionally doing drafting, working for Jeff Gill, who we talked about who Evelyn talked about earlier. And, you know, over the years I realized that I wasn't completely fulfilled in those roles and I didn't know why. You know, I would always ask to get out of the office.

C If they were like, does anybody wanna go and go to the site. Does anybody wanna go? Me. Pick me. I'm I volunteer as tribute. I am getting out of this office and I wanted to see what what we're putting on paper, like, in real life because I think the, you know, the squiggly line and like what does that really look like on the job site? And so I wasn't getting a chance to see that. I kinda equate it to being a musician. Right? Like musicians can play music and you can give them the sheet and they can play all the notes. But wouldn't it be easier if they heard it first? Like, the tempo.

C The you know, all of the melody. All of that. And so, for me, I was like, I'm not building my toolkit my architectural toolkit if I don't even know what this stuff looks like beyond sitting in front of this computer and drafting it for 8 hours a day. And so, the firm that I was working for just really didn't do the construction administration part. That wasn't not, you know, what Jeff and and his team did. And so I went to work for a owner to see the construction side and the owner side. So I worked in health care, at Hoag Hospital, a local hospital here in Orange County, and I really felt like I was making a difference. You know, the tower project that I worked on was where I had my babies.

C You know, so it was it really felt like I was giving back to the community in that in that way. Something very tangible. And not to say that building Starbucks isn't giving back to the community because we all need our coffee. And we all need, you know, that pick me up in the morning. But I just really felt like like I said, like that those projects that really made you feel good and and walk away and like, wow, I really did a great job there and I really felt good about it. But then, I had kids and so I think we'll probably talk about that later. And that really changed my trajectory right there. That was the first one of the first or second pivots that I made.

C And, you know, because it was very challenging for me to spin all of the plates. So I took an extended maternity leave. And fast forward, like, 5 years after that, you know, maternity leave was over and I was ready to come back, I didn't really know what my place in AAC was anymore. And I think we don't talk about this enough but, you know, the challenge of coming out of maternity leave back into a role is very very difficult. I had no idea because I had worked already for 11 years. I only took 5 years off. But to firms I was considered rusty. So I was really, really shocked.

C I'm like, what about those 10 years that I worked beforehand and that that didn't matter at all. And, yeah, I just don't think that we we talk about that enough in this industry. Like, what does that look like? And so I went I had an opportunity to work for a GC, and, that was not for me. So, that world is super stressful. But I considered it another tool in my tool kit tool kit. And another tool in my tool kit. And, also, as a black woman, the GC world is is really tough. Like, I was called sexual chocolate in a meeting.

C And so, yeah, I wish I wish podcasting was a visual medium because the looks on your faces right now are, like, just mind blown. Like, these are your listeners have no idea.

A I didn't know what to say. That's so inappropriate. I can't even stand it.

C Oh, it was terrible. And I I didn't know I didn't know what to say. I just so I full stop in the meeting. Like, what? Like, it was like like a casual, you know you know, hey. So, like, it was my name. It's such a crazy environment. I actually did ask our project manager to not put me on projects with that individual. And I was told, welcome to construction.

C You know?

A Right.

C Yeah.

A Yeah.

C Yeah. Yeah. It's just crazy. It was crazy. And that's not to say that all GCs are are like that. I mean, I'm pretty sure there are fantastic ones around, but it it was just it really wasn't for me. So I called Jeff, my ID who at the time was, obviously, at this point, a past boss of mine and IDP mentor. And I just had a come to Jesus moment with him.

C Like, what do I do? You know? I I think I think everybody should have a mentor in their lives. Like, you know and I could say that he's more than that to me now, like a mentor, old boss friend. He's definitely more like family to me now. Very similar to how, you know, Evelyn and I are. And, they were at my wedding and, you know, so it's more than just a mentorship relationship. But, you know, I know that I could call them up and say random things like, you know, I wanna start an ice cream truck business. And you know, and he would be like That's great, you're gonna do awesome. Let's see who we can call we can call so and so because they make really good ice cream.

C So to have somebody in your corner really cheerleading for you, imperative in this industry for sure. So I asked him, like, what should I do? You know, I told him what was happening. I didn't know where to go and he was like, have you ever done business development? And I said no. Because obviously I had worked for him as a, you know, designer and drafter. But, you know, he's like, I think you would be really great at it. You're terrific at building relationships and you know how to pull together a great project because you've been on high performing project teams. You can talk the talk and then also translate it to people that need it in layman's terms. Right? And so he got me my first job in business development in an architecture firm and it was perfect for me.

C I I jokingly told Evelyn the other day that I used to get in trouble in the firm for talking too much because when I was complete with my projects and it was submitted and ready for permitting, that was I was good. I was done. Like, I wanted to, like, talk to people, and I was in the kitchen and and doing all the water cooler stuff and just like, you could be doing more work. And why would I wanna do that? I've already completed all of my tasks. So, so there, knowing that I I I love the people side and, you know, the people side of AEC is where I definitely felt more I feel more comfortable even today. And just really loving on people who love good architecture, and and that's still being in the industry, which is really neat.

A It is so weird to me that, like, the people side because I struggled with the same thing, Danielle, like, wanting that connection to people. And yet, like, in the drafter role, it is you're so far removed from that. It's so shocking to me until I had that role. I didn't understand that that was gonna be a kinda insular position. I guess at some point in your career, you get closer to the client and the people, but not when you're starting out. Not really. So, yeah, same struggle.

C Yeah. I mean, and there's something to be said about the people that I mean, I had a coworker that he was a machine, and he would get in front of the computer and black out the lights in the office and have his headphones in and he designed, like, amazing stuff. And I was always like, oh, he doesn't he would, like, say 2 words a

A day. Yeah.

C I'm like, I'm on my, like, tip cup of coffee. I'm talking to everybody. And he was like, hi. You know? And there's some there some people that are very like that. But the having the relationship is really really important, at least for me. And I, you know, I know that we probably all this is a whole different, you know, podcast, you know, conversation about how those relationships are happening today remotely. But, definitely, when I was in the firm, I needed I needed that connection. I needed to talk to people.

A I think it's really great that you found that I mean, a part of that of what you were looking for in a relationship with Jeff, who became your mentor and close friend. Yeah. Evelyn and I have both known Jeff for a very long time. He's such a sweetheart, and I can just see, like, him sitting down and just talking to you and and knowing that, like, you have the interest in the profession and seeing you get stuck, not because of anything that you did wrong, but because the the systems in place were not supporting you to move forward and trying to work with you to solve that. I mean, not having a mentor or somebody who's advocating for you is so critical.

C Absolutely. Absolutely. And and our relationship of how we met through the previous executive director, And, you know, she I called Cheryl and I asked her, like, I need help. Like, I need a mentor. This is at the very beginning. It was like in 2000. And she was like okay hold on one second. I think I know somebody.

C I'll call you back. And I was like this lady is never gonna call me. She ain't gonna call me back. Like whatever. And she calls me back within like an hour and she's like, I have the perfect guy. Here's his phone number. And I was like, oh, you're not gonna like set it up for me? Like, you're not he's not gonna call me? And she was like, no. Here's his phone number.

C Call him and see if you guys, like, connect. And it was from that conversation that, you know, he brought me into the office and we talked about, you know, what we both wanted to get out of this relationship, out of the mentorship. And, you know, at the time I wasn't working for him and he found a spot for me at the firm that he was the principal for. And it grew from there. But so organically, like, random, you know, fortuitous meeting of each other through the AIA.

A Similarly, I felt like in in not really having the right mentors in my like, inside of the firms that I was working with, I think a big reason that I got so involved with AIA was because I could find those mentors outside of my firm that I could relate to, and it was kinda on neutral ground in a way. And so I could always go there as a source of, you know, talking to someone about, like, a a specific challenge I was facing or get trying to get career guidance. And so it became a really important place for me to get that kind of mentorship outside of, you know, like, my 9 to 5 job. But I I wanna jump back into you were you're kinda leading us through the series and the progression of where your career had gone. And, obviously so you you found your, place in business development. Tell us a little bit more about that and how you got all the way into a sales role.

C Well, I'm still not in a sales role. I still am very traditionally business development and honing those relationships and and making sure that there's a point of contact there for people. I think, you know, networking obviously is is huge. It's it's fundamental to business. Right? And so I found myself in business development. 1, because I really love talking to people about this work. You know, I I wanted to stay architecture adjacent. Didn't necessarily wanna design it anymore but I wanted to stay a part a very relevant part of the conversation.

C And so my first role in business development was really trying to, drum up work for a local architecture firm. And there's no better way to be a part of that conversation than to talk about your team or team of people that are going to do an amazing project for you. And I really found like, wow, this is it. I'm I'm really excelling in, you know, in connecting with people. Some people hate conferences. Like, I had a coworker that we would go to a conference and he would be in the corner, like, by himself. Like rocking in the corner. Like I don't wanna be here.

C I really hate this. I'm like, we're in the wrong completely wrong industry. But I I love it. I love everything. All the energy about being on the conference floor and going to act, you know, events and activities and and the networking stuff afterwards, that's where, like, I'm on. And so but I'm still in my element. Right? So I still can talk about the built environment. And so it's just it was a really good marriage of of the 2 things, like, that I had to strengthen and a and an education in.

C So that's how I found myself here. And I still do business development. So right now, we have large clients that will do a service with us or purchase, software through us. And the renewal with Autodesk is every 3 years. It's on a 3 year cycle. And so I'm really in that 3 year cycle to make sure how are things going? Can we do better? How do we do it better? Do we need training? How are you are you is your office utilizing it? And so really still talking to people in the industry about how to provide best practices for, doing their projects.

B The interesting thing about customer success though is that you're also feeding the conversations that you hear back to the to the product, right, or to others or to the sales cycles. So you're constantly kind of improving even procedures within microdesk and how they support other clients while they are while you're supporting clients too. So it's a it's a more holistic view, I feel like, of of business development than architecture firms. Because for me, when you look at business development and architecture firms, it's it's really more sales y to to Janine's kind of early comment. It's like make the point of contact, hand the project off, and then they run with it. And rarely ever does that business development person come back kind of after the fact and says, like, what was your experience? How can we do things better? So I feel like it's an evolution that technology firms have adopted, but architecture firms haven't necessarily created, like, fully fledged out those fleshed out those same processes.

C No. I agree. I'm really the middle person. And, you know, because when you're in sales, if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Right? And so I think a lot of times the client you know, if the salesperson goes to the client and they say, oh, how is it going? They'll say, oh, it's fine. You know? Or if they do have a problem, and I think that's very traditional even in architect in the architectural firm where the project manager or maybe the architect ask the client how things are going, but they don't wanna say that things are going poorly or they're unhappy or whatever. So I'm a neutral third party. Right? So I come in and I'm like, you can tell me anything that's happening and I'll try to fix it.

C And so I might not be able to fix it. I don't really know all the technology but I'll go find somebody to fix it. So I'm really kinda like the client fixer. Right? So, and you're right Evelyn. There's, you know, the the business development person in a firm will initially make that contact, ask how we're gonna do business together, and then walk away. And so you're losing a lot of opportunity to build really good relationship because the one thing we know is that you make more money on repeat clients, and you can't get repeat clients if you just say thanks so much and walk away from it. And so, Microdesk really has embraced that, and created my position only 10 months ago. So they're we're still new at it and we're still learning how to navigate, how to do the dance between, you know, sales and and my role.

C But I love nothing more than a client to I feel like I'm successful as a BD person or a client success manager when the client is calling me and I'm not calling them. And when I get emails where they're reaching out to me because I've done my job, you know what I'm supposed to do and you know that role that I have within the company and I can help you be better and and and use the product better.

A Yeah. You see, Evelyn, where my, like, train of thought kinda went back to old familiar territory. I guess so just to clarify, sales in a technology firm is a separate role or, like, they might have a separate division perhaps, that manages the actual closing of the deal.

C Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. In our in our specific organization, there are sale that's what they do. They're gonna come anytime I'm having a conversation with a client, about how much something costs or when we can deliver it, then that's not I bring them right on back to sales. I don't know anything about cost or any of that. But I can speak to how to do something better and and strategies on doing it better. And so we kinda walk the client through a funnel.

C Right? They're new, they've purchased the product or the service, then that's when I'm introduced. And I'm with them that whole time. And if I hear something like we really wanna talk we really our firm really wants to start learning about automation. Oh, okay. Great. That's the key for me to go to our salesperson and say, they wanna know about Dynamo or Orchestra. Maybe we should talk to them about that then it goes back through the funnel. Pre sales, then me, then then post sales.

C I'm not selling anything. Because I think I my personality is like, if you don't want it, I'm totally cool with that. Like, it's totally you know, I'm not I'm not the hard salesperson, like, you know, the used car salesman type, you know, like, but you need this. And if you said no, I'd be like, cool, Evelyn. Well, call me if you need me. So I don't have a sales bone in my body.

A I'm kinda wanna know, like, what what have you learned in being in this role where you get to sit with firms and understand their, interest and pain points around technology and the different programs that they're using. Any high level observations there?

C Well, you know, I think overarching, everybody is struggling with finding good people to complete projects. And I think as a in industry in the industry as a whole, all of the biggest pain point that most of my clients have is that they can't find somebody to to help them. And so we provide consulting services to to get them through a rough spot. And we started doing that about 20 or or so years ago, where our clients that were buying software from us through us as a reseller, in the original one of the previous, recessions had laid off a lot of their people. And as work came back on board, firms were having a hard time finding people. And so our leadership team was like, well, actually, the people that work for us all have degrees in engineering. They all have backgrounds in in real world application. We can help you for the short term and to get you through this this hard part of, you know, the project timing.

C And so they saw that we could do that holistically on a larger scale. And so now we do consulting. So I think that that's a huge pain point that I'm seeing right now. I think what's most interesting to me is, you know, my architecture program, I did everything by hand. Like I hand draft it almost my entire portfolio was hand drafting. And so getting out of school and going to a firm where, you know, I I entered right at the point where people were like, we don't wanna use AutoCAD. We don't want that. We're gonna just, you know, design on a back of a napkin.

C I'm pretty sure that Jeff has given me a floor plan on the back of a napkin. And, you know, we don't wanna we don't wanna mess with that newfangled stuff. This is, you know we're gonna stick with hand drawing. So we drag them across that finish line and obviously have been in the industry going from AutoCAD to Revit. And there are still several firms that have not adopted Revit. So I think that's another pain point where they want to. They just it's like almost equate it to playing double dutch, like jump roping. And you don't know when you know, nothing stops the projects don't stop.

C So how do you jump into that? You know, start jumping in there, like, without getting hit by all the ropes and, you know, getting bruised up. And so clients are really having a hard time trying to figure that out too, but I've seen this transition in technology throughout my career. And I'm excited to see it's not gonna stop, obviously. Right? We're moving more and in more into automation and, you know, sustainability and how that how all of that wraps around like in technology is so interesting to me. So it's a it's a really neat place to be where all of these great things are flying around. And also it's just a great company. Like, you know, for me personally, I've almost never worked anywhere where I've said I have a really great idea. And it's like, well, you gotta talk to your boss.

C You need to talk to their boss to talk to this person. Maybe the owner of the company will wanna do that, but probably not anymore. And, you know, maybe not right away. Maybe next, you know, fiscal year. And I've heard in meetings say people say, well, you know, are we gonna go into the metaverse? And our bosses are like, yeah. Check it out. Tell us all about it. Like, go and and make it happen.

C And I'm always floored, like, you know, oh, there's no I mean, there are processes obviously. I'm not just out here spending money, like, left and right. Like, let me do whatever I wanna do. But it just it on the technology side, I've never I've never had an opportunity like this. It's really, like, whatever you wanna do, you know. If you could bring value to the company, they'll listen.

B So I wanna circle back. So you talked a little bit about the things that made you create the decision to make a change. So one, like, working for the GC obviously wasn't a good fit. You made decisions around kind of priorities, after having your kids in in order to make it work for you. How like, other than the obvious, were those decisions easy, or were those decisions kind of hard for you? And then how do you have any advice on, like, people pivoting or, like, when they're thinking about what's next, how to take those steps? Because I feel like that's where actually a lot of people get stuck. Like, I feel like there's a tremendous amount of individuals at firms that are comfortable with being uncomfortable, and they aren't willing to really take that next step because it's something new.

C Yeah. I'd like yeah. The being, you know, being okay in the discomfort, I wasn't okay with that. This is not my personality to be okay with that. I think I I don't know. I think the biggest challenge that I faced, you know, in deciding on what to do next or what next step to take, was really not knowing what I wanted to do or what I was good at. You know, I I mentioned earlier, like, I have a degree in architecture. I've been drafting for, like, 10 years.

C Like, what what am I good at? And I think that's what stops. That's like a full stop right there is well, what does that mean? Like, if I were to stop today working in a firm, what can I do that's different? And I love this is why I love this type of conversation because maybe you don't wanna go into software. Maybe you don't wanna go into real estate or, you know, software technology or real estate or whatever. But I think when people start thinking beyond the traditional there are things that you can do. But I didn't really know what I could do. Without Jeff really being that mirror to shine back my strengths, there's no way that I would have known, you know. And he was like, well, I mean, I'm sure we could've continued we would've figured out something. But definitely somebody to speak that insight into you because I think it's so easy for us to just not see the good in in what you do.

C Like, I think I'm a really good designer. That's it. But I, clearly I talked a lot and got in trouble a lot and they saw that she likes to talk a lot. So there was a there was there was a negative when he was trying to get projects done on time and on budget. But, you know, in this role, it's a positive. And so I think we just have to continually have this conversation of if you're uncomfortable, do something about it. You know, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of options out there.

B The interesting thing is there are a lot of options. I and I always struggle when architects kind of talk about the other options, but they're very adjacent. And and they're and there's nothing wrong with those adjacencies. Like, right, you went to the owner side, you went to the general contract side. Some people go to the manufacturer side. I think you you in a way kind of did that. We we totally skipped over that part of it. Not direct manufacturer, but

C Building materials.

B You had another role infidel. In building materials. Right? You know, there's there's people that do actually go to kind of more the the sales side of when it comes to product selection. But, you know, we're we're told in school, like, you can do so much with an architectural education, yet we're so limited when it comes to thinking about what we can actually do. Yet, as you said, we have a shortage in the talent pool. So there's plenty of people out there that have figured out where to go. I would argue that we don't necessarily have a shortage in the talent pool, but we've lost people to a lot of great places, and we haven't necessarily been able to hold on to those people or keep in touch with them because they feel like after they leave architecture, they have no place here.

C I agree with that. Yeah. That's there there is that sentiment. And, you know, I I I think the one of the biggest things that that held me back from making that initial leap is that I didn't want to disappoint anybody. Like, you know, my mom, single mom, paid for me to go to college, get that college degree in architecture. And I'm like, mom, just kidding. I'm gonna do something else. And so I think that that was always the, like, I'm gonna disappoint somebody.

C I'm not gonna be the doctor, lawyer, architect. Like, you know, what am I gonna, you know, what am I doing? But I think it's the worst of all of that is disappointing yourself, you know. And and I think at the end of the day, if you just slug it out but you're sad about it and you're not, you know, you're not happy with your career, then you need to make the change. And be uncomfortable with what's making you uncomfortable and and do something about it, and not doing what you love.

A Wow.

C So

A Man, this conversation is hitting really close to home for me. I mean, there's so many things I wanna talk about in this. I mean, first off, for folks like us, there's not a lot of good career guidance. They I think that there's inherently this thing that goes on in practice where they staff around what they need people to do and then not necessarily what identifying people's strengths are and matching them to skills that, would fit that better. I think that's a challenge, and and it it really, in my mind, is a lost opportunity on cultivating staff around a variety of needs in the firm, whether they're the ones that you need support on or, there's a larger way to look at the functionality of your firm and the way you staff people. But also just talking about how difficult this decision was for you. Oh, man. I was there, and it was hard.

A It was so hard. There was so much worry about regretting it and worrying about an incomplete journey that I, like, I had invested so much time into this and then fearing that I was gonna regret it if I stepped away. But then also, like, not being honest with myself about how unhappy I was in in certain situations and trying to muscle through it. But it sounds like in your story, it sounds like you you found a way to give yourself permission and to acknowledge that this was the best step for you. And, I'm just were I'm wondering, can you speak further to, like, kinda reconciling all of those contradictory feelings?

C Yeah. You know, I think I had to really, like I said, shed that fear of disappointing my mom, you know, that I wasn't going to be licensed. I wasn't gonna be that, Like I said, the tagline, doctors, lawyers, architects. We need to figure out where that even came from because, like, because the idiom is that they're, you know, these all are 3, like, you know, amazingly accomplished careers. And if your kid is one of those then it's like great. And I really had to shed that. But recognize that now I have kids that are looking at me everyday going to work sad about what I'm doing. And I don't want those brown eyes to be looking at me and that this is what I have to do for the when I get a job I'm just gonna hate what I do because that's what my mom is doing.

C She hates it and she's sad about it and she's crying about it on the way home on the 405. And like, all of these emotions and I I I think I had to go stop and say there's 2 kids that are there are 2 young black women that are watching me right now. And so I have to my duty and my sole job is to provide them outlook to their future. And so now I need to find what it is that will make me happy. Would I have I mean, I don't know. Maybe going somewhere else wouldn't have made me happy. But the option needs to always be there. Because we're we're not held, you know, you're not seat belt seat belted into a career.

C You can continue to grow. And, you know, it's kinda funny, like, my in laws, my husband's side of the family, every time we have, like, a Christmas or or, you know, Easter dinner or something, I'm like, oh, I started a new job. And they're like, what? Like, weren't you just at this other job? Like, what? What are you talking about? You got a new job? Why? But isn't that the spice of life? Like, you move on. You learn new things. You learn new things about yourself. And when we're old and gray and all sitting outside rocking in the rocking chair, I had 20 jobs. You had 2 jobs. So what was the difference? We're all, you know I was happy because I got to know more about the world and about the profession and about life And there's nothing wrong with that.

C And I got my girls to see you chase it. Just keep chasing it until you find it. There's nothing wrong with that. However, if they spend my money on call it no. Just kidding. And they don't follow their If they're listening to this, you need to follow no. I'm just kidding. I'm making a joke.

C I I would fully support them in in in finding finding the fire.

A And you haven't stopped pivoting, because there's still 2 more things that we need to talk about. And one of them one of them does relate to your role of being a mother, and the other is, our shared mutual love of podcasting. So let's start with, your role as a mother. And, basically, you're writing a kid's book is what I hear. So tell us more about that.

C I am. I'm writing a kid's book. I feel like, you know I mean, when you when you have little kids, you buy them all these books. Right? And you get down with them and you read you read, like, you know, Brown Bear, and I know Evelyn's like I'm sure you've read that about a 1000000 times. And I thought, you know, I'm looking at these books. There's not a lot of representation of black kids. I mean, I think currently we're there's a push to have that, you know, recognized. And there are books that are on the shelves today which we're doing a fantastic job.

C But I feel like representation was a huge part of why I decided to write the book. But not only that, representation and STEM and STEAM careers because we don't see that too often. And so I'm writing a book about dreaming and deciding which very much so is like this whole entire conversation. Dreaming and and deciding on careers, You know? And so it's about a young girl who looks like my daughters. You know? So they're half black and curly pigtails and all that. And they're and this girl is really exploring what she wants to be when she grows up. And thinking about how she can be such a good doctor or veterinarian or computer programmer but is always drawn back to her love and desire to do design and construction. And I do feel like that's maybe a little bit of like my story.

C I I didn't leave completely. So something always drive draws me back into this world. And so, it's it's called Maybe I'll be an Architect, and it comes out on October 25th. And, and also actually, I have an opportunity for your listeners. If you want a sneak peek of the book, you can go to my website, taneelbwrites, because I'm building a launch team. And so, I just need people to join me. Read the book. Give a honest review on on Amazon.

C 4 or 5 stars only but honest anyway. And the week it goes live. And you know, if you're interested even if you don't have kids, but you love the idea of supporting the dream of seeing more diversity in STEM and STEAM careers, definitely join my launch team and tell people about it. The more mer more the merrier. I'm sure it'll be in your show notes. But I'm excited about it because I want my kids to see themselves in in career exploration, whatever that may be.

B That topic really, hits home to me. I because well, I have these 2 kids with very different personalities, and I don't I'm, like, trying so hard not to imprint, like, what I think they're going to end up being based on their personalities. Even though I could very much say my son is going to be that, like, kind of that, you know, if you go to the cliches when I was back in high school, he'll he'll probably be that dork. That's like the the scientist or the the physicist or, always in a chess club, so I can't, well, make fun of him being, like, in something like that. Much more forward tech and versus my daughter is much more, hopefully, not the chair captain, but the soccer team captain and the homecoming queen and the prom queen. But at one point, somebody told me, you know, we need to stop at telling kids, like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? Because then it becomes this, because it begins to build upon that, like, pressure of like, I need to be a specific thing, and what I decide now is what the only thing that I can become. So I kind of like this idea that we're in constant career exploration, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. You know?

C I do that same thing too. I do have 2 kids, totally different personalities, and I'm like, you know, and I hear all the time from one of them, I wanna be an architect. I'm like, really? You're like, oh. No. No.

A Really? Abort vision.

C No. No. Stop. Just kidding. Just kidding. So but, yeah, I just think that, you know, it's like my when we talked a lot today even in our our earlier conversation, I don't have that project related activity anymore. Like, I don't see things come to fruition. I don't start something and I don't see it, like, through.

C Everything is always, you know, a client doesn't end us and my relationship with them doesn't end. And so these projects are very much scratching that itch of creative projects for me, and exploring, like, you know, design and, you know, bringing the like, for the podcast, bringing spoken word back, you know, and making it relevant and continuing it on and telling stories that's such a big part of my upbringing, you know, storytelling and, you know, and passing on that information from generation to generation. And that's what podcasting does, and it's it's neat. Maybe maybe not necessarily. My podcast topic is not the most heartwarming, but nonetheless.

A When your podcast got announced, I was like, wow. Okay. Now that's a niche within a niche within a niche. I mean, so it's a, true crime podcast about murders that happen near architecture.

C Mhmm.

A And, honestly, I've been listening to it, and it makes me so happy. I love your show so much. I I've listened to, several episodes that come to mind, but definitely the Frank Lloyd Wright episode is a big one. Yeah. And then I can't remember his name, but there was the, oh my gosh, the one that they made into a movie that was about the 2

C Stanford White. Gentlemen.

A Yeah. Oh my gosh. Really intense stuff on your show. How on earth I have a lot of questions. But how on earth are you gathering all this content and finding it?

C Well, you know, the profession is more deadly than you think. Right? So, surprisingly, I'm not short on on stories. You know, this was very much so a pandemic project. You know, I'm a business developer. I need to get in front of my clients. I need to come up with ways to engage. Right? And so when the pandemic started, conferences were canceled, you know, AIA canceled. All the things that I would have gone to to see my clientele gone.

C They weren't even in their offices and half of them aren't even really back in their offices. And so I was like, how do I get in front of these people besides going on LinkedIn and, like, jamming down their throats a bunch of, like, articles that nobody really wants to read anyway? So, you know, I was like, I gotta be real creative. But I do things that I do know and I listen to you guys I mean, I actually know you in real life. So it's a little bit different. But, you know, there's there's things about the podcast host that you just feel like you know them. I know a lot about a lot of different podcast hosts that I feel like I'm inviting you into my car. I'm inviting you into my house and I'm listening to your story a lot. Even though mine is about true crime, there's a little there's a lot of personality that you things that you know about me through the podcast.

C And so that was really how it was born. I I love true crime. I actually initially started, the idea of doing, a building materials podcast. And I called my friend who does tile. She sells stone, quartz and and and a veneer wall veneers and stuff like that. And, she was like, okay. I could talk about tile all day long but nobody wants to hear me talk about tile all day long and unless you're like riveting about, building materials or steel or whatever, nobody's gonna listen to that. And I'm like okay.

C She's like she said you know you have to niche down. And I'm like I don't even I don't even know what that means. Like and also, you 2 know it's a labor of love. You gotta talk about what you love. Otherwise, it's just it's gonna be a job. And I didn't want it to be a job. So I thought, okay, I love true crime. I have a background in in design.

C Let me see let me Google, architects that murder people. And so many so many stories came up and I was like, I have content for like years. They're so many shocking. And so it's sometimes it's not, you know, obviously Frank Lloyd Wright didn't murder anyone but it was his, his boob that got murdered. Right? His side piece. Or his mistress, anyway. And, and then, you know, Stanford White was murdered. Right? So there's like the, you know, it's crime adjacent.

C So it's not necessarily architects getting murdered or being murdered, you know. But then there has been I think what I love about it the most it is it started it sparked conversations about like violence workplace violence. I have an episode on a young black mom who was killed on a construction site in Fresno. And that sparked a conversation to start talking about, like, you know, programs like be be that one guy. If you see something wrong at work, you say something because things like this can happen. And, you know, the architect that worked at one of the firms that I worked at previously was Little and, she was an architect in DC that was murdered by her boyfriend that she met online. And so I think that anytime if somebody's listening to my podcast and they're like, oh, red flags. I'm seeing all these red flags.

C Maybe it's not my red flags. It's my sisters or my best friends. Say something because that can save a life. And so as much as it was, like, kinda cringey because, you know, my kids tell people, oh, she does she has a true crime podcast. And the parents are like, lit. I think that if it some of the some of the stuff that I'm bringing up and the topics I'm bringing up have to be talked about because I think it does affect the future of the profession, you know, specifically dating violence, workplace violence. And if we can continue those conversations, then hopefully, I can I can save a life?

A I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're you're kinda, like, really spot on because I do think, like, even just in what you were describing in terms of stepping into the general contractor side of things and the building construction side of things and then experiencing, some different variables that, you know, felt uncomfortable. Not that that would go to that extreme, but just Sure. Recognizing that there are things that happen. And I've I've definitely heard all kinds of crazy stories on either in architecture studios or on job sites. So I think, yeah, I guess thinking about it from a safety standpoint and just things can happen, I guess.

C Things can happen. And then specifically in the case of the young lady in Fresno, you know, the when they interviewed her coworkers on the site, they said, oh, they fought like that all the time. So we never thought that anything was wrong. It was not like any other you know, no different than any other day. They fought all the time. And he didn't like the fact that she had she was in the apprentice program, that she was, you know, moving up, that she was, you know, doing something good for herself, but also showing that, you know, when it's very women are very competent in this work as well. And he did not like that. And so he wound up taking a life, which is is terrible.

C And so, you know, I'm I'm hopeful that we can continue to have these conversations as it relates to architecture. But even even beyond that I think, you know, what is our responsibility as white collar workers? Because when we're in the office and we think oh, well that's happening out there. We do have a responsibility as well. And so I always think, like, what can I be doing that's different? And and I white collar worker working in a GC's office and was called sexual chocolate. So Yeah. You know, is there

A I don't know. Some of the architects you feature, it sounds like there are some issues there too. Yeah.

C I know. Oh, yeah. There's some This

A is not this is not in my architectural history class.

C No. No. I know. That that's what I love too is that so many people have come to me and they're like, I did not know anything about the Frank Lloyd Wright stuff. And I mean, if you ever step one foot into an architecture 101 class, like, that's literally one of the first people that they talk about. And a lot of people are very surprised to hear that side of the story. And so I just wanna continue to, like, create and bring good stories, in our profession. And this community has architect the AAC community as a whole has really rallied around my little podcast That Could, and they're been so they've been so supportive.

C And so I've taken a little bit of a break, to get the book completed, and then we'll obviously release new episodes of Death by Architecture in the fall. So Oh, I'm excited.

A I've definitely been listening, and I will continue to be a, subscriber and listener.

C Hey. Thank you.

A Is there anything that you can share about what you've learned about yourself in working in the podcast? I'm sure there's other people out there that, like, listen, and they're thinking about, man, it'd be cool to do a podcast one day.

C Do it. Do it. You know, I have met some of the coolest people doing the podcast. Like, I mean, I had no idea what I was doing and I'm like, you know, I asked Evelyn. You know, and I I think so. This is the sad part is that we're so used to like, this is mine, you know, this is my territory and keeping my not playing showing me showing everybody my playing cards. And, you know, from minute 1 in the conversation I had with Evelyn about it, she's like, the more the merrier. Like, more voices amplified will do the best for, you know, women in this in this arena.

C And so I was like, oh, well, I mean, obviously not surprised that she would be supportive because we've been great friends for a long time. But I've I've even large podcast I've reached out and asked questions like, what do you do here? What should I do here? And people have dropped every call me right now and we could talk for, like, hours about best practices that they've seen. And so I think if anybody is considering it, I'd say do it. Because it's it is a labor of love but there's just, like, you gotta just once you press submit on that first episode and you can't let I mean, I guess you could delete it. You could delete it but and you know, you know, once it once it's out there, you could tweak it along the way. I think people get so caught up in the it has to be perfect. It has to sound right, like clear and crisp and all that, you know. I have to have a really expensive mic and actually the funny a little tidbit about that, don't get the expensive stuff.

C I have a really expensive mic and it's sit I'm looking at it. I'm, I don't use it because I like how the $30 mic that I got off of Amazon sounds as opposed to the really expensive one. So you don't have to have expensive equipment and just don't have analysis paralysis. You just gotta jump right in. And if anybody has any questions, I'm I'm willing to pay it forward because I had I can't say I can't even tell you how many podcasters I reached out to that full stop have stopped what they're doing to tell me, you know, come on. Let's go. Get in the get in the bus. Let's go.

C We're gonna do this thing together.

A Yeah. And it's so much I mean, well, as long as you're working on something you care a lot about, it's so much fun. And I think Yeah. You get better over time. But, yeah, this this arena, especially AEC podcasting, we need more women. We need more people of color. We need more voices in this space. I I get so excited every time I meet a new, podcaster because, like, it's like a community of people that I guess we're, like, weirdos that we love doing this, like, weird thing that's extracurricular, but, like, it's so fun getting to meet other people who are like, yeah.

A I get excited that I'm recording this random thing that maybe nobody will care about, but it'll be great.

C Only my mom will listen to it, but she will love it. She will give it 5 stars on Apple Podcast. Exactly. Exactly. I feel like we should do, you know, like, maybe next conference, do a live podcast with all I mean, there were so many I on a whim, before I went to, AIA conference in Chicago, put on my Instagram that I was going to be at the booth, obviously, working for MicroDesk. But I was like, nobody is gonna nobody is gonna care, like, whatever. I was like, if you're there, like, reach you know, stop by. And, you know, I wasn't at the booth all the time.

C Like, I was out walking the floor or went to a couple of the sessions. And every time I would leave and come back, my bosses would be like, someone else stopped by to say hi to meet you. And, you know, stay in the booth because people are coming by to to to rally in, you know, around this community, this thing that you have. And I met so many of the other AEC podcasters while I was there. It's just a neat neat energy, and I think we could do something really cool. I think we should do something really cool next conference.

A I totally agree. There were way more of us at convention than I thought there were. And I, like, I actively subscribed to a lot of these podcasts, and I was like, holy cow. We're like a force. This is pretty exciting.

C I actually want I don't know if you if you can cut this. You can delete this part if you don't wanna bring it up. But I actually submitted for, a session on podcasting. And and podcasting for your organization, but also podcasting for yourself personally. Obviously, it wasn't picked up and they decided that they didn't wanna talk about it. But I I find that there's so much fascinate like, people I people tell me all day long that they that's what they wanna do, that their company wants to do it but they're not sure what to do. So I feel like there's such energy around it that I was surprised that they didn't want to talk about that. And and knowing how many podcasters were actually even at the convention it didn't have to be me.

C It could've been any number of of you guys. And so, it was frustrating. But nonetheless, I I'm still gonna commit.

A Well, maybe we just do it on POA or something.

C Yeah. Yeah. That'd be neat. I love that. Neat.

A So to close out this conversation, I want to, come back to you know, the main thesis of this episode was really around career pivots and, like, not knowing where it's gonna lead you. So, we'd love to know one piece of advice that you would like to leave with others who are out there listening and soul searching their way through their career. What can you leave with them?

C I think remember that you aren't leaving. You know, architects architecture never leaves you. You know, it you will look at everything and anything you do in your life through the lens of being a designer, a PM, or an architect. And that skill can be taken anywhere what was given to us in architecture school and the wealth of knowledge that we learned from our bosses and working in this industry will never leave us. And so it's super valuable and it's value it's valuable to, I think, other clearly because we're like what Evelyn talked about earlier, we're going into other arenas. It's a valued resource. And so you're never you're not leaving architecture. I didn't leave.

C I you know, I'm still around. I'm still actively involved in the AIA. I'm still on the board. Jeff's never gonna get rid of me. And so so you don't you don't think that you're you're walking away from something. And I think, you know, another thing I'd like to say is get a mentor. You know, somebody that you could go to and bounce ideas off of. And and and I do talk to my husband about career stuff all the time or my mom.

C But, you know, they have vested interest in in what I do next because it's like, well, we're gonna eat top ramen if she doesn't, like, go to work. And so get somebody that can be speak encouragement into your life and be your cheerleader. And you really like, I work I mean, Jeff's not a hard person to be in relationship with. He's a very easy, you know, easy guy to build rapport with. But if I hadn't stepped out on that or you know, I could easily told Cheryl, I don't wanna do that. That's that makes me uncomfortable. I'm not gonna call this man that I don't know. And so I'm glad that I did because now 20 years later, you know, I have that person in my corner who I know is always gonna always gonna be in my corner.

C And then lastly, you know, take the risk, you know. With great risk comes great reward. And that you never know where life is gonna take you. And like I said, architecture has not gone anywhere for me. I mean, so I I might be back. Just kidding. You never know. Coming to a firm near you.

A I think you're you're there already. You haven't left. You're influencing in many, many ways.

C Yeah. So, yay, thanks so much for having me. I love I love chatting with you guys. We could go we literally could go on and on about, you know, just talking as, like, this is just like friends just hanging out and having a good time. And that's what I love about I love about this community is that, you know, it's it's I wanted it to be more of a conversation. Like, we're just catching up.

A You know? Yeah. Absolutely. And, we adore you, Taneal. And, likewise, like, could talk for another hour. But, just for the sake of our listeners, we will say please go check out in the show notes. Tenille's got some great links. She mentioned her upcoming book, which, will be for children. What's the name again?

C Maybe I'll be an architect.

A Maybe I'll be an architect. Or you can go check out death by architecture, a really fantastic podcast, and just keep up with her. She's doing good stuff, and I'm sure she'd love to hear from you.

C Yep. Awesome. Thank you so much.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture dot com/podcast.

B Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is at practice of arch. That's at practice of a r c h. We love to hear from you. Drop us a note to say hello.

A This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our

B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.