Lessons from Practice Disrupted on Navigating Change

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. We

B thought we would drop in and say hello and have a conversation between the 2 of us for this episode because we've been extremely busy this summer.

A Yeah. Since we left a 22 in Chicago, we've been traveling. I mean, you were in Florida. You actually gave the AIA Florida keynote, for their state conference. I was down in Texas earlier this week, and I'm going to Oklahoma the tomorrow, actually. So we've been bouncing around, and there's been a lot of workshops and webinars and conversations in between. So I thought it would be helpful to maybe touch base and just see how see how everything's been going.

B We had a really great conversation with AIA Seattle's Women in Design. We've gotten a few of those lately, and it's been really exciting to kind of share our story with other women. I feel younger women in the profession. At some mark, when I was planning for the a 22 conference, I was gonna be like, who's been in the industry 20 or more years? And and then that that's it. Like, 20 or more. Nobody says, like, 30 or more. So I feel like I fall in this bucket now of of being on the old side of the profession, oddly.

A You just started really young.

B Anyways, we also thought it would be a good chance to talk about what we've been invited to as a result of the show, some other opportunities where you can come and see us in person, what Janine and I have learned from the show over 4 episodes, what our and and, ultimately, what our listeners what you all can expect as we close in on our 1 hundredth episode at the end of this season.

A Yeah. That's true. Like, right before you hit record, you said, oh, I miss it when we were delirious and we were staying up to record the intros and clothes. And it's kind of surreal to think about, like, how far we've come. We we have adapted and changed and tried to implement new ways to streamline our processes. You know, we have an entirely new recording platform, and so much has changed, I think, from those early episodes.

B Well, I think you and I both continuously try to practice what we preach. Right? And that's adaptation and agility and trying to keep it new for our listeners. I will have to say that a lot of the content has filled up with this season because we've heard from listeners. So please keep reaching out to us. Let us know what you like to hear, what you want to hear so we can bring you interesting conversations and keep you tuning in.

A Yeah. I've I've found it really insightful hearing what people ask us to speak about. Like, for example, earlier this year, AIA Colorado Christopher Kelly leadership program reached out, and they gave me a list of topics that they wanted me to cover in a session about leadership. And then as you mentioned, our AI Seattle presentation with women in design, they specifically wanted to talk about change and how do you get unstuck in your firm or your career. So we ended up having a really insightful conversation that led to some diagramming that I enjoyed.

B I also think that those 2 topics alone are kind of very telling of where middle management and future leaders in the profession stand right now. I think there's still a desire for this professional development that they're not necessarily getting in firms. I think that's helping actually build out the the backbone or or a lot of the foundation of what you're working on in terms of mentorship through your Apostrophe Consulting work. But but I also think we're in the middle of this she session, the great resignation. People are really reevaluating priorities and what that means for their careers going forward. And I continuously get, I I had 3 people reach out to me this week about switching into tech or or just out of architecture and what that what that means and where to start.

A Yeah. I was thinking about I mean, a lot of the themes that have come up on the show around change, we were able to basically break down into 2 categories around, how you could approach changing your firm or how you could approach changing the way that you work. And so I thought maybe we could just briefly touch on some of those together, that we presented to AI Seattle. But variables that we found that you can change in your firm, obviously, this is dependent on your firm and the culture that you have there, but we we identified that studio culture is definitely 1, and that's something that you can focus on in terms of improving your workplace culture. Studio culture, we believe, doesn't just relate to the academic setting, but also a professional environment.

B There's always opportunities to create change within your firm, however small. And 1 of the things and, actually, I'd be interested in this is something we haven't talked about, and it came me up in our latest conversation was the the need to mentor up. And it's something that I found myself doing actually throughout my career to to ensure that I had the clarity of thought or or understanding even from leaders in my firm to make sure that I was headed in the direction that they wanted me to head into rather than the direction that I felt the project needed to head into. So even I feel like if you are new to the firm, there's always an opportunity to to break through and and find ways to create small changes in your firm.

A Yeah. Absolutely. I think mentoring up I think mentoring is kinda 1 of those things that it's not hierarchical. It's like it can cross generations. It can cross demographics. It can cross, like, gender. It it is definitely, you know, multidimensional. You can mentor up.

A You can mentor down. Sometimes you can be the mentor and sometimes you can be the mentee all in the same, you know, firm just depending on the topic of or the subject matter that you're talking about. So in terms of, like, improving workplace culture, maybe that's something that you feel more passionately about or you're being exposed to new ideas on those, concepts that maybe someone further along in their career in your firm isn't. And so that's an opportunity to mentor up.

B Yeah. And I think there's other there's other ways to be entrepreneurial about your own career even within a firm context. So for instance, I was beginning to study for my AREs and as, you know, I was like, wouldn't it be great if the firm had a library of old materials that we can study for, because other people had gone through the licensure process ahead of me? And they're like, yeah. That's great. We don't have any money to start a library for the AREs. So I just reached out to people. I reached out to the local component. I reached out to my, to employees, and we began to build that library out.

B And that was something that didn't cost the firm any money. But, once I took the initiative, they were really ready to support it.

A Another variable that we think you can certainly change and influence is DEI and expanding, your goals on diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think a lot of firms are interested in this topic and not every firm understands how to approach this topic. So I think that it's it's an opportunity as leaders in a firm to establish goals, to be bold, to reach far for things that you wanna see accomplished, and, you can introduce new programs and, opportunities inside your studio to bring more awareness to these conversations and then create pathways to engage more people?

B DEI is an interesting 1. I you know, there's always work to be done in DEI. I do actually think that there are a lot of firms that are out there that are are trying their best to make headway in this, even with the latest amount the the latest round of, promotions. What I found, though, is that they that a lot of firms are really bad about talking about their DEI efforts when they do do anything. So another 1 you can do or another recommendation you can make to firm leaders or if you are a firm leader, you know, if you're if you're making the effort and it's just not exactly clear in in your leadership because you're grooming that next generation of leaders, then on your about page, rather than just showing the leaders in your firm or the current leaders, show the upcoming leaders. Show if if your firm is small enough, although I would say the most of the large firms by now have a glossary, and you can almost search any employee in their directory. But but put everyone up there. Show in other ways how you're making efforts that, will eventually pay off in in the long run even if it's not showing up immediately in your firm leadership? Because this is a change that takes time.

A Yeah. I was helping my friend, Susanna, with some research on DEI metrics in the association world. And, basically, I think anyone who's working on DEI goals, they're early in development. And so, like, the long term impacts of the work that was started in 2020, which for some companies is the first effort, it's it's really early to see results. Now, of course, there are organizations that have been working on these goals for much longer. And even for them, I think it's still pretty still pretty young in terms of being able to see the greater impact. So I think it's gonna take time, but I think small, initiatives add up. So if your program is investing in external programs like ACE mentorship or, different sponsorship opportunities to bring people into the pipeline, I think those are really great opportunities to showcase engagement.

A And then in terms of greater impact, I mean, any way that you can show that through the work that you're doing in innovative ways, I think telling that story is worthwhile and putting it on your website or putting it into your social media. Basically, bringing visibility that your firm is invested in these values is something that a lot of people are interested in seeing.

B Absolutely. And for those of you who are still interested in figuring out ways to begin to have DEI conversations, there have been individuals who have been taking our diversity series and using it as kind of a a lunch and learn opportunity to listen to 1 of our DEIA episodes and then have a conversation about it. So our, most recent 1 of our most recent ones from last season, that was 1 of our my my favorites, was with the Whitney Young Junior award winners riding The Vortex and us hearing kind of, you you know, 4 very unique stories of Black women, coming through architecture and their efforts to move the profession forward for other Black women.

A We also identified management systems as another theme that shows up on our show pretty regularly. And we have such a long playlist of episodes about how to change management systems in your firm. And I think we're gonna continue to expand this list, but, basically, all the way back to the beginning of our very first season, you can find episodes that cover technology. You can look at new ideas on practice, business strategy. We tap into finance. We even have ideas about marketing. It runs the gamut. We have a lot about virtual and hybrid and even firm case studies that are looking at technology as a driver for their, framework for their firm, the business model.

A So, I think that that list is quite extensive.

B I often find myself pulling past episodes to use as case studies in my presentation. So 1 firm that I'm constantly coming back to, this is a shout out to Lea Lisa Baer, who has been on our podcast a few times. She also has a virtual practice course on practice of architecture, and she has which she's been doing consulting with practice of architecture for for firms that are looking to move towards a virtual practice. But I can't say enough of what she's done, for for our architects, because for our as a 100% women owned, they were entirely remote pre pandemic in a vertical that I would say people would think is a is a hard vertical to be entirely remote in, and that's sustainable, affordable, multifamily housing complexes is kind of their sweet spot. But, also, for all of you that are really struggling with finding talent out there, the last time Leah had an opening in her firm, she had over 300 applicants to that position. So just something to think about going forward. And coming up on this season, we're talking with Diana Nicholas, who is another firm practitioner that I've been really interested in getting in on the podcast. She's been her firm, Saum Architects, has been mostly hybrid even pre pandemic, and they have an unlimited PTO policy.

B And it really stems from treating adults like adults and and letting them manage their own time. So I'm really looking forward to talking with her in an upcoming episode.

A The 4th theme we identified was around leadership, and we have developed quite a long and growing case study list of firms that are doing things a little bit differently. And, actually, Evelyn, in your AIA Florida keynote, I thought it was really interesting because you highlighted these different case study firms, in your presentation. But everything from Brooke Scarpa to Rios, prior guests that we brought on the show, we have different episodes that talk about what it takes to either engage your team as a leader in new ways that you manage your practice or change the minds of leaders that are existing in your practice to lead the practice in new directions. So, we cover topics including training the next generation of leaders, retaining talent, and new business models and architecture.

B Yeah. And for those of you who are actually wondering kind of what what episode is what under these 4 categories that we're we're dropping, or the these categories that we're speaking to, we'll drop it in the show notes, kind of a culmination of episodes that falls under each category if you're looking for something specific.

A Yeah. I've started doing this thing where we have so many episodes and they cover so many different categories that I've tried to match them to themes so that they're playlist. So, like, if you're interested in leadership and you wanna go deep, I've got you covered. I've got a playlist ready to go where you can scan it for, episodes that relate to each other that I think would tie into that topic. And same thing for, studio culture, DEI, and management systems. We'll drop those playlists in the show notes.

B Yeah. And then we also you know, all of those thing themes that we just talked about are really firm focused. We also have plenty of episodes focused on the individual and creating, your career, which I think at this point, we always talk about being a journey. It's about the journey, not the destination. I think people have heard both of us or at least me say multiple times throughout the podcast. So really, you know, how do you change your focus either your career within your current firm or your career, parallel to architecture or architecturally adjacent and and kind of more on the outskirts as well.

A We've got 3 categories here for changing how you work, and the first 1 is about changing your focus. So it's essentially about reevaluating what you're prioritizing and then making decisions that are in alignment with your goals. So we have a career growth playlist that, features some past episodes, including expanding established design practices. That was the episode that we had, with, the 3 women who represented existing firms that went out and launched new offices across time zones on behalf of their firms, and we had a really compelling discussion about what it takes to open up a new office.

B Yeah. And the most impressive thing about that episode for me has always been the fact that, in at least 2 of those cases, I think well, definitely 1 case. I think literally was it Abigaila Brick who was at Brick for all of maybe less than a month before she's like, I need to to move. And would you entrust would you entrust me to continue working and and open up kind of, a second geography or a second location for this office? But I you know, even with all of my experience, I I don't I don't know if I would I I'm teaching my my 5 and my 6 year old about brave being brave, and I honestly don't know if I would have been brave enough to ask that question.

A Yeah. I think she did it in a 2 step process, but, yes, she was very brave. We also have a a theme that is really focused on alt careers. And I think anyone who's been listening to the show since season 1 has heard the architecture and series, which was always, I think, our agenda to illustrate and encourage people to think about all the amazing ways that you can take an architectural education and training and apply it to a different field. And there's so many people that do, and then they are basically disconnected from the profession or we don't, I guess, we don't identify them as part of the profession unintentionally or intentionally depending on your, opinion. And I think Evelyn and I agree that we should recognize these individuals as still being connected to our profession because they expand what an architect can do in so many amazing and incredible ways. And so some of my favorite, favorite, favorite episodes in this, topic land into the episode that we did with Rebecca on film, where she's actually using architecture to create set designs on Lucasfilms, including she worked on the Mandalorian, and some of the Star Wars movies. And then we also did a really cool 1, with Boston Dynamics where Brian is working to represent Spot, the robot dog that goes on construction sites and does site construction scans for, and can, it can basically walk on any terrain.

A It can walk upstairs. It is a very friendly robot.

B The final group that we cover, the playlist that Janine has so wonderfully pulled together is really on entrepreneurship. And there's there's so many different ways that we can talk about entrepreneurship, but it's, you know, some of these are firm leaders that have really gone on to build a a multidisciplinary, practice. I always think of, Atelier Cho Thompson when I I think of a multidisciplinary practice. And some of it really is, going taking your architecture background and going into something new altogether. So last season, towards the end of the season, we featured Vivian, who is a founder of Ground Cycle, and she left Rafael of Annoy Architects, to essentially, you know, build a new city system, to for for composting, where she drops off CSA boxes and then picks up people's compost and made a full circle food system for them.

A I really wanna shift into some of the ideas that you developed during your keynote, because you have a whole category in here of, like, case studies around startups and then case studies around traditional firms. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the themes from your your presentation that you were thinking about, and did they prompt you to speak specifically on anything?

B The title of the talk was bridging the gap between traditional practice and what's next. And there was a there's a list of startups in there, some of whom we've had on our show, some of whom we have not, some who who are positioning to try to get in our show in upcoming seasons. Cove tool and test fit and, and and Concert, I I feel like these are all startups that are very, that are proactively supporting or trying to find ways to support the the profession and help it move forward. I think there's also startups out there that are seeing opportunities to come into the industry and disrupt it a little bit. So those startups include and this is more specific to, frankly, the residential market. Those startups include, Plant Prefab, Mighty Buildings, cottage, and then there's start ups like and we've we've talked to Federico from Kanoa who is really disrupting kind of the the furniture industry and sustainability workplace planning. For anybody who actually needs needs an office and how they plan to furnish that office and and how how you do it in the most sustainable way. But they're working hand in hand.

B They just actually acquired a design company, and they are looking they're constantly looking to work with designers, to be a part of their portfolio to to help support their clients. So, you know, there's there's interesting new models out there that's going to shift who the clients are for architects, but also I think change studio or what we think of as traditional practice altogether. So Cottage does ADUs, but they hire a lot of designers, I believe 1099 also, to kind of support their work. So that whole conversation was really about, you know, we are not the only ones competing. We we are competing for market share. Like, we have there's other people now competing for market share, so we're not purely competing against ourselves, and they are also competing for us talent wise. Right? So, yes, there may be a a talent shortage, but I often question and wonder, and I don't I don't think 1 is not necessarily true without the the other. I I think there may indeed be a talent shortage, but I often wonder or more frequently have wondered, is that talent shortage a result of our inability to keep talent because of the type of culture that we have in architecture, and kind of the businesses that allow us to pay people the business models that allow us to pay people, what we do.

B So, you know, so so to what extent is that a result of the the the labor shortage, because of people leaving the profession rather than our inability to attract people, to to enter the pipeline of the profession.

A I think this propels us into another conversation that you wanted to have, which was around culture. So what were some of the, data points that you brought forward into your presentation around, trends and and things that you're seeing on culture and maybe even people in practice?

B Well, I think this this begins to talk to some of the episodes that we're looking at, having in this upcoming episode. So there's there's been a lot I I feel like you and I have been wanting to have the conversation around shop and what happened there with the unions. I also think you and I have both said that that we we don't really know what a union means or looks like within an architecture firm. So we are going to sit down and talk with Architecture Workers United. But I feel like with the the the the great resignation, with people reprioritizing how they want to build their careers, with with people not being happy with the lack of flexibility they are are getting as more bosses want them to return to office so many days a week. And, like, the cultural conversation is coming to a head. Right? It showed up at SCI Arc. It showed up it showed up actually in the recent REBA election, and they elected what they call the workers' candidate.

B Right? So if you if you haven't seen that, go check that out too. But but all of these all of these conversations are conversations that we're actually looking at having in this upcoming episode about culture and why and why people think unions might be better. And, we're also looking to to talk with, 3 individuals out of Chicago that have just finished a little piece on mental health in the industry and how we can support better mental health within architecture by using models as actually, used in law, frankly. So these are all conversations that I feel, like, have come to to a head just with with things that are happening, more broadly as people realign and reassess kind of where their careers are headed.

A We also have, your coworkers coming back on the show, Future Forum, which I'm really excited about because they just published a book, and we wanna revisit the conversation around what are the workplace trends in practice, what have we learned now that we're a little bit further in and past the pandemic in some ways, about you know, early on when we recorded, it was how do we work virtually, then we shifted to how do we work hybrid. And now I think it's like, how do we work in this new era of work, and what lessons did we learn that have completely changed the culture of work forever. And I think future forum's gonna be able to help us because they've done a lot of research into those topics specifically.

B The architecture profession thinks that we are such a a special unique profession. And it's not to say that we aren't, but I don't think the problems we are seeing are necessarily unique to us. I think there are other companies that are out there or other verticals, verticals, I say should say that have really struggled with innovation, and and they believe, 1, you need to bring people back to the office to build to to have that culture of innovation. That is just 1 of the many myths that, the Future Forum can can bust when it comes to the offices and and return to work. Well, they they have this really great study, which I think they'll talk about. But 1 interesting statistic that I can never get out of my head is that, you know, the majority of people want flexibility in their schedule. But when you talk to them about what type of flexibility they want, it's it's not necessarily about place. It's about when it's about when they work.

B So, you know, 60% people or something like 65, 70 percent of people want flexibility around where they work. 90% of people want flexibility around when they work. And what that really means is shifting all of our project work to kind of how do we work asynchronously with 1 another. So all of specifically the mothers and caregivers out there can do school drop off and pick up when it when it's best for them and and when they're going to to be in the best mindset to get work done.

A I had, someone reach out to me also this summer asking me if I knew anything about parental leave, maternity leave, leave for fathers, and what were those policies. And it's not really something that I was thinking about, but since they asked, I, like, reached out to my network, and I was, like, trying to understand what the policies were. And to my shock, it was pretty minimum, especially, you know, in the context of small firms and what they can afford. So we're we're going to be doing a pretty robust conversation on mothers in the workplace, but, you know, it really just got me thinking about, like, how how little progress we've made and how fresh and young these conversations are in the context of the way we work. When you think about in the seventies, we had an entire workforce of men coming into the profession and very few women, and now we're in a place where we have more gender balance in the profession and we have women stepping into, not only manage and lead firms, but they own them and they are, a powerhouse in terms of expanding what women can do in practice, and yet our policies are they haven't caught up. You know? They haven't caught up to where the systems need to be in place to support those women effectively. The fact that really strong women are still struggling with these issues even though they're leading in very robust ways really made me pause. So I'm I'm looking forward to just understanding that conversation a little bit better and, like, what is it that we could actually do to help those individuals and future women coming up?

B Yeah. I think there's a lot that we can do around scheduling and asynchronous work and allowing to to do, like, job sharing when it comes to project management, right, like like within the context of current traditional practice. I've also personally have wondered, you know, there there in the there are firm leaders out there that want to support mothers and new parents, but their business models are restrictive. Right? If they they can't afford to pay somebody overhead, they can't afford to pay somebody if they're not billable towards a project. So so in that sense, I've also wondered, you know, is it how how much of our business model is really holding us back from helping move the needle forward when it comes to some of this stuff.

A Speaking of business, we're also inviting Amy back to the podcast. Amy joined us in the season finale of season 4 for with Madame Architect, and we're gonna flip the script and put it back on asking her about her career, as a project architect and manager. And then, also, she's going for her MBA, and she's editing, interviews over on Madame Architect. So I have a lot of questions to ask her about how she's thinking about solving these really daunting business challenges in practice and what gets her excited.

B What was interesting for me actually over the course of this summer is at a 22, Janine, I got to see you present your work for the first time, on on mentorship. And, I don't know. III was, like, delightfully surprised about kind of your approach. There was a really fun slide speaking about Lucasfilm and Jedi about how you were like quantifying various different was it skill sets?

A Mentorship, like, strengths and

B for

A like, where do you see yourself as a mentor?

B Yeah. By by relating back back to Star Wars somehow. And it was it it it it was it it was fun in the most meaningful way, like, to see the systems that you are building out for your, clients that are are not only just like another mentoring system, but something that really engages individuals in a in a new way. And I think it's not necessarily gamifying it. I it's just a whole new level of engagement that I, that was really refreshing to see. So, kudos to everything that you're doing. I know you are becoming increasingly busy with Apostrophe Consulting. So thank you for being my continued partner here over on Practice Disrupted, as our both of our schedules get more busy.

A Yeah. Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. Yeah. Early on, I mean, I don't know how much our listeners know about this, but, you know, during the pandemic, I think we were both just trying to make sure that we were surviving. You know? And as we've come out of the pandemic, it was, like, crazy because a 22 was, like, this really big moment where I got to go as, you know, Janine, the founder of Apostrophe Consulting. And it was it was surreal because, you know, during the pandemic, it's it's been virtual. It's been me building up my confidence in, you know, a virtual setting with clients all over the country, and then to actually walk into a 22 and be able to, step into that moment and see so many friends and then, like, to present my work was really awesome.

A So I've been having fun figuring out how to share what I'm doing in a more transparent way with others, but I just am super excited about helping firms use their design thinking to rethink some of these problems that they're facing in practice. Like, how do you create better talent development solutions, For example, mentorship, which you would inherently think that architects are good at mentorship. But the more I dig into this topic, I'm not sure that that's totally the case. I think mentorship is something that people assume that they can do in practice, but then I'm also hearing from architects that are like, I've never been taught what what I'm supposed to do as a mentor. You know? So there's still a gap in that capacity, and I've it's been interesting trying to figure out ways to fill that gap and to create better support systems for people in practice, you know, right there inside their studio.

B Yeah. No. So if you are interested in any of these things, please reach out to Janine directly before she gets too busy. Yeah. I think you already are busy. But

A I'm busy.

B But But

A it's good busy. It's like it's what I wanted, and and I feel like I'm in this growth moment right now where I'm, like, stretching in a good way, which is which feels really good. I don't know how to explain it. Like, this is the destination I was trying to get to, so now I'm here. Now I gotta ride with it.

B That's that's good. I I think similarly, we're looking at, you know and we talked about how we constantly revamp practice to disrupt it and its format to not only try new things, to take some risks, but but also to keep things moving forward as as and and be adaptable to change. So that's what we're doing, with the practice of architecture lab. The community over there is growing. We're gonna see a lot of revamp to the lab coming out of the last 6 months of the year. And, specifically, we're looking at launching a brand new resource focused on best practices and business operations, including some of that research that Janine has been doing around maternity and paternity leave. You know, what what are some best practices? Well well, Diane Nicholas will be sharing out her employee handbook that she has from Saum Architects, and we're going to pull some best practices from Shepley Bulfinch as they begun to hire more remote, and also share out some findings from from Fora Architects. So really taking best practices of firms of all sizes around business operations and putting putting them in a resource that's not dissimilar from the 1 that we spun up, at the beginning of COVID when it came to best practices for going remote quickly and how to communicate with your firm.

A I think that the lab's really been growing. And 1 of the things that I really enjoy about it is our monthly gathering where it's just like a social of people from all over the country, and July was packed. Like, we had a great discussion where we we were representing all time zones in the US, at least. So that was really fun to see so many faces and people that are just interested in talking about change and practice and eager to share examples of how they're doing it differently in their firms.

B Yes. And if you want to see us in person, there's 2 opportunities coming up. 1 that Janine is heavily engaged in with the Women's Leadership Summit. Did you wanna, touch base on that?

A Yes. So the AIA Women's Leadership Summit is happening this year in San Jose, California. Our friends down there at the Silicon Valley chapter are engaged in helping to plan it, along with the national staff at AIA. The event is September 28th through October 1st, and, basically, it's gonna be a powerhouse lineup of speakers. I this will be my 3rd, and I have always enjoyed going to this event. I get so much out of it every time. It's like a just an energy bump to, walk into a room full of women and feel like you can talk about the things that are kind of nuanced in terms of what women are thinking about and want to talk about in practice, but sometimes just aren't able to, in their when there's, I don't know, a a diverse room of people that, you know, some of them can relate and some of them can't relate. So this is a special event where we get to, have those conversations and just feel, like, really empowered, to tackle the world.

A It's it's inspiring to me at least.

B And then the the other arc or the other opportunity at least for for small firm owners or people that are interested in starting their own small firm in the near future is in Austin, Texas, November 1st through 3rd. It's at the Entre Architect. It's it's their 1st annual meeting. So, you know, as most of you know, Mark LePage is the founder of Gable Media, and Practice Disrupted is under the Gable Media label. He's also the founder of Andre Architects. So Janine and I will be joining the speaking cast and crew over there, to talk about the future of practice, with a lot of other speakers that will help you get your small firm up and running right away.

A Yeah. I think the fall is gonna be really busy from what I can tell, and, I think we're gonna be traveling, Evelyn.

B Yes. And and we are always open to kind of share I mean, so 1 of the most interesting things when I've been putting together these topics to speak on is, you know, this this practice disrupted the work you do with Apostrophe Consulting. You know, so much of it is honed in in kind of research and outreach and and taking what we are hearing and either building responses or, talking about them more more opening openly and asking and asking 1 other, like, why do we keep hearing the same thing over and over again in our in, in practice? But we're always eager to share our our learnings. So to any other AIA component out there or, like, Christopher Kelly leadership development, programs or any even leader institutes leadership institutes out there. If if you are interested in bringing us onboard, please please reach out because we're always game to talk.

A Yeah. And if you have examples of how you're doing it differently, because I know a lot of people have, been reaching out to us, interested in how do you get on the show, how can we share what we're doing. Send us information about what you're doing differently and let us know really specifically, like, what is it that you're doing that's outside of the box? We're looking for, innovative, thinkers and people who are modeling their business in different and unique ways, or have something unique to share about how the industry is changing.

B Yes. So to all of our listeners out there, I just wanted to say thank you for tuning in these past 4 seasons. Thank you for joining us for season 5. Thank you for keeping us so busy. The this information really excites us and keeps us moving forward. We're we're passionate about we're we're passionate about all of it as you can hopefully tell, and we will see you here next Thursday. Thank you for tuning in.

A Hi, Disruptors.

B Com/podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in our community at practice of architecture.com/community. Our social media handle is at practice of arch. That's at practice of ARCH. We love to hear from you. Drop us a note to say hello.

A This show is part of Gable Media. You can learn more about other podcasts and video channels in our community by visiting gablmedia.com.

B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.