A Case Study for Practice: Latent Design

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. So when I think about the type of firm future generations are interested in being a part of, especially this new I wanna say new or younger generation, this generation Z. Our next guest comes to mind. Catherine has built a firm that operates at multiple scales across multiple sectors and disciplines, and in every instance, manages to positively impact the fabric of the community where her projects are.

A She was actually 1 of our guest keynotes for the Leadership Institute. So that makes me really happy to have another conversation to follow-up since we hosted her in that forum. But latent design often finds itself in a position where they are changing policy to get projects built while working alongside various city agencies and getting projects approved, all while creating new business models for her practice, but also paving the way for other entrepreneurs in the field to be successful. So I think there's a lot we can learn from Katherine.

B And not only in the field of architecture, literally paving the way for other entrepreneurs within her community to be successful. So, Catherine, welcome to the show. We're so thrilled that you can join us. We always open each episode by having our guests kind of introduce themselves. So tell us a little bit about who you are and latent design.

C Thanks, Evelyn, and thanks, Janine, for that, lovely little conversation. And the intro, I'll kind of give you a series of intros in a way. So sometimes in a context, I just say I'm an architect and a nice lady and maybe that's what it all boils down to of the ability to do. Some of the work we do is always combining the 2. I guess in the, you know, professional way we say, oh, you're a citizen architect, but it boils down to just being like an architect and a nice person, who in many ways, I think of myself as an architect and academic and an entrepreneur within that field. That's all the pieces that we take together in my firm, Layton Design, which I founded, back in 2010, and we work at all scales of projects from a bench to a building to a neighborhood master plan. And it's through those juxtapositions of projects that we started to really understand and tackle what could be a design system. And within design systems, there's architecture, there's policy, there's construction, there's development.

C So there's these individual pillars, but it ultimately goes to how do we create more equitable spaces and systems. And so that's, you know, now what the architect and nice lady is trying to do if you in that, you know, decade plus thread.

B Are you inferring that all architects aren't aren't nice? Yeah.

C I don't think I'm nice all the time, but, I would I would say it's it feeds into how I approach our clients, our projects, and, you know, how I represent the various communities that I represent. Not only in terms of geographic communities, but, you know, ethnic and identity communities as well is, you know, going forward with a curiosity and, you know, sometimes the ability to laugh at ourselves while we're exploring, but also to just frame it in a way of looking at design through an incredibly collaborative and positive aspect. And I think that's maybe a little I think the niceness of that is what allows it to be approachable and to have some of these conversations being available and being vulnerable, and that I think is why I always still have to frame, like, the niceness, in the aspect of architecture because we're we're up against the stereotype.

A That's true. But we always like, I think since I first learned about you, you've always been someone who was deeply embedded in community driven work. I mean, from your early project that I think some people are familiar with with the food trucks in Chicago to, serve food deserts. And, III think that's why we brought you in as a speaker all those years ago with the Leadership Institute is bridging that perspective of doing architecture for the communities and not just because you wanna do great design, but doing great design for people who deserve it. And so I guess the question that I wanna talk to you about is you were early to go out on your own in your career and launch your business and to charge forward defining a path for yourself in this space, and now it's it's 10 years later. And we're curious how the mission and the vision for Enlightened Design has evolved over those 10 years.

C Yeah. It's been 12. You know? So we're at 12 now even though everyone forgets the last 2 years. Right? So that's how you got to 10. Sorry about that. But yeah. That's okay. It's very interesting because when we started, the project that you're referencing Fresh Moves Mobile Market, so it was taking a decommissioned CTA bus and turning it into a mobile market, to serve fresh produce as a grocery store in food deserts across the Chicago.

C That still exists, you know, so that still exists as both, design and version. There's version 2, version 3, version 4. The organization has shifted and grown, to not only encompass the bus, but like a whole entire urban agriculture facility that's that's revitalizing the Auburn Gresham neighborhood on the the south side of Chicago, but that's that's really in that example. How the firm also exemplary of how the firm has shifted. It's it's looking at the what seems like the smallest space, and I think that's where people often didn't think our firm maybe had as much impact. But that small space of the interior of the bus was a whole entire system that if you gave it time and you gave it you advocated for it and you actually gave it the support it needed could grow to actually become a solution of scale for a community or multiple communities. And so that I think is then how the firm, it parallels to how the firm has developed. I mean, we're still a small firm with 8 people, now, but that was Freshmove was me and, like, 1 part time person, you know, and working and volunteering as a designer of with an organization.

C Right? And that work has shifted to now being able to implement and and create solutions of scale.

B You've mentioned something very interesting to me that I it's a word that I feel most architects actually don't use, but it's it's also a word where I think our strengths lie, talking about systems. So has that always been kind of part of the lexicon or did was that just like a have you always said like architects or systems thinkers or is that something that for you even has evolved over time?

C I didn't know the word systems thinking until I started to teach at Northwestern, really. And I and that's where some of the language, started to match and maybe align with the work that we were doing. When I knew what the work that I was doing was scope creep is the voting. That's how I understood what we were doing, was scope creep. And it was just a a curiosity of understanding how things were done and how this realm of spatial design works because it was buttressing an academic experience of information that I didn't get. You know? So trying to use the projects as as an informative tool to understand how building spaces, objects in 3 dimension come to be, to also then to tackle issues that I was passionate about, food advocacy, housing justice, to understand how that comes to be. So it took that that scope creep and that curiosity of understanding how our city, the city that I live in, it works, and then started to slowly over time add the right language to it, and then also understand what I was doing and what I was leading a firm to do, which now I do think is systems design is always a component of every project that we do. And it could be and I think many architects already do it.

C They might minimize it in some ways. You know, it could be as simple as thinking about, you know, we're working on a community center now, and we think about how the youth can be directly involved in the design of some of the spaces, and how does that branch out to designs that are other artistic elements that are happening in the neighborhood, and how do we connect people and make relationships and networks through our own project to other projects to start to think about the building, the block, the neighborhood. And that's a systems thinking approach that I think many architects already do, but maybe don't celebrate it as much or even institutionalize it into their own process.

B Right. I mean, and the interesting thing is we always talk about wanting to raise the value of architects. I feel that that type of vocabulary is something that is used more in business. Introducing it from a systems perspective, I think there is a different level of credibility that actually gets built into what we're doing.

C Yeah. I agree. And I don't think you have to think about systems thinking as, like, let me overhaul a whole entire manufacturing component of the of the building industry. Some people are at that scale, and we've even worked at the policy scale, so change policy, within the BOOM box program and micro retail and pop ups within the city. I mean, we advocated, for 3 pieces of new policy. That's also another level of systems thinking in a scale, but we don't all have to be that big. Like, it could be very small. It could be very project specific, and I think we could increase the absolutely increase the value proposition of what design can do and design designers and architects can do by starting to talk that way.

C It's more than it's it's it's the life it's the whole life cycle of a space and all the emotions and, you know, tragedies and and loves that happen within any project that we create.

A I think a lot of architects would aspire to do more socially driven work and projects, but then when it comes down to actually building a business model around that concept, sometimes people have a hard time with the execution of it. And so then they go back to work that's dependable and maybe not socially driven.

B Or even believing they can make a living, right, that they can pay them. Yeah. That's true. They can pay themselves and do it.

A Some won't even try because they don't think that it's something that you can you're right, Evelyn. They don't even think that you can build a profit off of, socially driven work. But I think you've demonstrated that you can, and I, and I think Evelyn and I are curious to understand what drove you to design your firm that in that way and what has allowed you to be successful in holding on to that vision for your firm.

C Yeah. I think, and I hope I could swear on this because I'm going to. I think it's bullshit kind of thread of thought that I've heard over the 12 years of my firm that small projects don't generate a profit, and you can't make a firm off of small projects. You can't make a firm off of socially driven design. All of that has to live in this realm of, like, the other work, the pro bono, or something else that's altruistic and isn't architecture, and I just I I'll say it again. I think it's bullshit. And because first, architecture is barely a profession in the in the way that I was taught to practice it in school that drives a profit. So if we're working in a profession that has a business model that isn't really fully vetted, you can make any business model you want then out of it to work.

C And I think where it was, and I I've said this before, I I started the firm because of a recession, and I didn't have job opportunities. And I was newly licensed, so I had to make something work for me to survive for another year, to have a child, to grow a family, to do all the things that were in my lap at that time. And it was truly naive to then say, well, if I can I could I have to do this thing? I have to be an architect. I have to figure out what that means for me, and then I realized I can pick the clients. I could pick the type of work. I could choose how I spend my time, and then if I could make that safety net work for me and then I could start to see a career path, then can I bring others along with me? And so it was just not it was truthfully not knowing any better. I knew only a few models of practice and they didn't seem there was, you know, some that weren't hugely successful as others were, and you know there's always this conversation of if you're sacrificing design to do the work whether it's fully developer driven, you know, cookie cutter apartments, or if it's community based design and small projects, you know, I don't I don't see that as a negotiation that we've had to think through, and I just gave it time too. I mean, it took many years before I even had a part time employ employee and now with 8 full time employees and a new planning director starting and, like, really just building out all of the pieces that the work allowed us to do, and that mission and that drive hasn't changed.

C And I don't feel that we've necessarily had to compromise or even we're put in a situation where we felt like we had to compromise. So there's fortune that comes to that, but it's also a a manifestation of a direction that we wanted to continue to pursue. And now I feel very lucky, and I think people who listen to the podcast and definitely students should feel really lucky is there's so many firms out there that are doing similar work. Like, there's there's lots of examples now, and there's and for even for more experienced architects, there's examples for them. So they don't have to continue with this narrative in their head that somehow this work isn't valid or productive or profitable, when I could think of 20 firms who are the ones that are leading edge of this type of work and then also leading the edge of what architecture can be. I mean, the AIA firm of the year is a nonprofit architecture firm with, like, $10, 000, 000 of design revenue, you know, hundreds of employees in multiple countries, you know, so you can't tell me that you can't scale this work. We have plenty of examples that we can look through.

A So I just wanna dig deeper on this idea. Like, if you had to narrow it in on a few key differentiators that are distinctly different between a firm that views the opportunity to design for socially responsible projects versus a traditional firm that is maybe excluding that in their operational systems. What are maybe 2 or 3 things you could point to that differentiate the way that those firms are thinking about the way they're structuring things?

C I think there's more firms. I don't think there's there's more firms that are doing this work and incorporating it into their model. I would say if we had this conversation maybe 5 years ago, I could I could more clearly say this is a traditional firm model and this is ours, but I think so many more firms understand the value of of advocating for community based work, which is also incredibly rich design work as well. And I think the way that it's it's just a slight shift in how they spend their time, I think, is a differentiator and allowing what seems like maybe a project that isn't fully programmed out or isn't fully funded, giving it the same chance you would if, you know, a private client came with a big idea, but not all the pieces together. You know, it's it's it's hard to it's it's it's hard to actually quantify that differentiator in those terms, but I think there's something about the simplest way I could I'd say is, like, giving different types of projects a chance, and not thinking of I only need 1 kind of client. I can look at community based clients the same level of influence and project feasibility as I can my private clients.

A Oh, that's such a good point. No. I think you're spot on. Like, not making the assumption that just because the budget is limited or the scope is limited that that that negates the opportunity to bring the full services that you would provide for a larger project or budget.

C Mhmm. Mhmm. Because I think and I've experienced this in previous firms and I know, you know, some of our employees have experienced this. They're like, we'll give a private client, you know, we'll do many schemes for them before we get our first invoice paid. I was like, yeah. We do that for community clients too. We both get paid at the end, you know, or 60 days after or 90, whatever, but it's the same amount of work. So what if we just change how we're already, you know, producing value and giving away value and just shifted who we provide it to? And I think it's a it's a it's a simple switch, but I think that's how I looked at it when I started the firm 12 years ago is thinking about, well, every every architecture firm gives away free work.

C They either call it free work when it's pro like, when it's for a private client or they call it volunteerism or pro bono somehow when it's a community client, but they're weighting it differently somehow. And we don't have to do that. We could we could follow our projects, follow our clients, and follow those dreams in the way that I choose to spend our time and then how the firm now chooses to spend our time.

B I would almost say, given my history working on projects between public and private clients too, that the public clients, although you probably have a lot more different stakeholders to weigh through and it it takes a while to bring them along, In many ways for me, they were so much less demanding than the private clients when it came to the expectations of deadlines and wanting things yesterday, and and kind of knowing that it took time to build everything you need to make a project successful, because they're doing it daily with the work they're doing.

C What I found was actually very refreshing is there was a conversation around mission alignment, and there still is with most of our nonprofit and community based clients, which change the tone of how you're going to create a project and develop this project, because it's starting on a set of different values.

B That's fair. Mhmm. We've alluded to, like, 3 different of your 3 3 of your projects so far, BoomBox, the, the the CTA bus conversions, to mobile grocery stores, for lack of a better way. For food deserts, you know that you know that the community center that you're working on currently. So what are what are some of the favorite projects that you have worked on over the the 12 years that you would love to highlight?

C Yeah. I would like to I think the best way to highlight this is, like, also to we'll speak to how the system was kind of designed actually works out over 10 years. So if you start with fresh moves, that was around advocacy around food access, and then that is a thread of design of thinking about small scale design, which actually led into why boombox needed to be, you know, came to be because we were looking at both public space and then small spaces as a way to bring entrepreneurs, small businesses, creative individuals to give them affordable space, and make it accessible while revitalizing commercial corridors. From the BOOMbox project, which ultimately was in 6 locations across Chicago, 1 of our first on the west side of the city in Austin, what that location, 1 of our first tenants in the space was a new organization called 40 Acres. And 40 Acres is was a start up fresh produce market who knew our work for both fresh moves, but also saw the boom box as a location to test the idea of where a food desert on the west side. I feel she left her corporate job and wanted to start up, a produce market in on the west side, and then in other neighborhoods across the Chicago. So build a grocery store from the ground up. She started there, showed demand, and now we're 2 weeks away from submitting for permit for her first grocery store down the street from that boom box location.

C And then if you keep going down that street, we have 7 different projects throughout that neighborhood and then the adjacent neighborhoods. And though that that street goes from the furthest east all the way to the lake to the furthest west to the Oak Park neighborhood. And within that stretch of Chicago it's called Chicago Avenue. Both our office is currently on it, and you lose a generation. The life expectancy shifts 30 years along that stretch of Chicago Avenue. So you're going from some of the most affluent neighborhoods that we're working on high end residential where a studio is going to cost you, you know, $4, 000 a month by the lake to trying to fight to open a grocery store on the west side of the city in a predominantly black neighborhood that, when you look at the health disparities between those 2 is a generational gap, a true generational gap. And that's the thread of not only how 1 element of what we worked on 10 years ago feeds into work that we're doing right now almost very very directly, but how then we start to look at all of our projects working together to start understand and tell the narrative of our city.

A And BOOMbox, what we know of it is that it was a self funded micro pop up shop that was only about 200 square feet. But you were working with a lot of different city agencies and, entrepreneurs to influence both a policy shift and then like a community for entrepreneurs. Is that right? Mhmm.

C Yeah.

A For such a small project, it seems like that some people could view that as not a lot of payoff for a lot of complexity. But it sounds also like the the scale of impact is tremendous. So tell us a little bit more about saying yes to investing in such a small project.

C For the BOOMbox project, I really it was it was an idea that I just we had to see the fruition. Like, we, you know, there's micro retail in many cities. Japan, like the Santa Monica up here is all just micro retail. Those are tiny shops there, you know. We'd exist in other cities and I was sure I was so sure it existed in Chicago, and I just couldn't find the right code section. Right? I couldn't find there was a piece that just allowed it, and what I did find through that, you know, how do I in that research of trying to bring this to life is that it did exist in a newspaper stand or other small structures. It just got regulated out over decades decades, and you could actually map where it would get regulated out of 1 ward, and then another ward and another ward, and it was part of a series of, you know, where policy and zoning are both racist, and, you know, biased to both immigrants and people of color, and that's where a a space that was actually a hub could be a hub for entrepreneurship and activate a corridor started to go away. And so then the policy piece came where we could give all these examples of how it's a true positive benefit, we had to then figure out how we make it work within the city.

C How do we meet legally make this thing exist? And, you know, naively you start, start, well, this is a building and a zoning issue. Right? And it's like, well, no. It's also is that on a public plaza? That's also owned by the department of transportation. Oh, and you're gonna have artists in there? Well, now it's Department of Cultural Affairs and Special Events. And how are we going to get a business license? Pop up licenses didn't exist in Chicago by that name, so now we have to go to the Business Affairs and Consumer Protection to figure out a licensing for a 2 week or 4 week pop up. And then, you know, then just for fun, let's bring in public health because somebody might wanna sell you, you know, a brownie. So that's how that little thing and you put that much effort and you're like, it can't be. It can't it can't take meetings and rooms bigger than the space that I wanna create.

C I can't abandon that. And so there was the desire to just kinda push it through just out of, like, pure stubbornness, but there were also people in each of those departments who could be good internal advocates. Even if they weren't at the seniority, they could help translate it. And I think that was a perfect alignment not only of more aligned and enlightened, you know, younger bureaucrats in each department say, like, I get it. I've been there. I've seen this. I know what you're trying to do. I have a friend who makes jewelry, so this they could go in it.

C They knew the type of people that would go into the space, and then they could advocate in the language that made sense within their own departments that I don't know as an architect and, like, slowly kind of nudge to get it there. And so it went it went fast also, fast for policy. It took a year from start to opening to get all of that done, which is, you know, I think also the speed helped us because it was kind of like, yes. Let's kind of, like, get someone to say yes and then keep it moving, you know, kind of forward.

A I love that, like, you're not only just, like, acting as a building architect, but you're, like, an architect advocating for the systemic policies that have been eroded and trying to push back into, the building code and zoning opportunities that have, previously existed that went away. And so there's so much back to the comment about systems thinking, but there's so much amazing design embedded in that that's not necessarily specific to a built piece of architecture, but design in the context of policy and advocacy and really trying to push back on this bigger system that's that has the opportunity to influence so much more.

C Yeah. And I think when you, you know so in the end, it was a huge headache. Like, if I I wouldn't do it again, I would do it a 100 different ways different, but I would do it again because what we see now so that launched in 2015, 2014 into 2015, and then it closed at 2019. That was when our contract with the city ended. In that time, we have seen businesses that really needed just to show the world their proof of concept of their idea, their product, their services, and we have some of our vendors who are in Target being their product being sold right now. We have businesses that have opened up true brick and mortar. We have some that have expanded, into other cities, and also we were able to look at a business that doesn't want to be on Shark Tank. Like, they don't wanna be in a storefront.

C They don't wanna grow to Shark Tank. They like what they do at the scale that they do, and they they work it and they just want the additional opportunities, or they just want to celebrate a passion and you know still do their full time job, you know. And so that is the space that we truly found, and when you look at it, that's the majority of small businesses. I mean, if across the United States, definitely in Chicago, but the majority of small businesses are making under half a $1, 000, 000 in gross revenue. Some mostly 250 of gross revenue and employ themselves and, like, 1 and a half other people. And I was like, that was my business. You know? I get this. I know.

C That's who I buy from. So it was very, dear to me to understand that model of of small business and entrepreneurship and ownership. It was my friends also. It was the people that I like to buy from, so it fit within and and and we also knew, and I fit into this model as well. It's, like, the most underfunded business owner is a woman of color. And so when we created Boombox over the arc of 1st year, 19 out of the 23 businesses that went there were women of color owned businesses. And And so we had to find a way that, you know, here's the problem at the core of latent design is what we do is, like, here's the problem. It's usually an access problem, you know, whether it's access to space, to funding, to, you know, opportunity, and we have to find a way through design to design a better way to access that and to design a better system.

C And so we hit those barriers. I personally hit all of those barriers as a woman of color, small business owner. I know, you know, like, my shirts from a woman of color, small business owner, you know, and they hit those. And so how do we use our tool of architecture to actually make that access and to create that space? And sometimes you have to disrupt the system.

B Separately, I think if you ever want to create a case study out of Boombox and, like, help that proliferate

C Yeah. I needed some space between it too because, like, that was a grind too because we did we designed it. We built it. We did all the we did all the vendor management. We, like, if it got broken into, I cleaned up the glass. Like, we had to figure out how to fix it. So we fully vertically integrated a separate company to do all that work, which is very similar to what a large developer that we're working with also does. Developers have property management companies, they have rental companies, they have themselves as a developer, and it's all under 1 umbrella, so that is the lesson that I also learned just from a tiny space as well.

C So how do you operationalize something like this and how do I also then understand what's happening on other projects of scale, how that business model is working. So small projects teach you everything. I think small projects keep you up at night just as much as big ones. So

B So I had a question about where you believe architects can can create the most change. Because I I there's definitely those architects that are like design is everything. I'm gonna design even the community center and it's going to change the way the community acts because I did stakeholder engagement. But but is that where our power really lies? Like, where where do you think do do we have any power? And and if we do, like, where's the biggest opportunity to create change? Because for me, it was like, even going back to the BoomBox example, yes, you created this 1 thing, but the power was in working with all those city, like the city agencies to get it, to make everything happen and to make everything come together. So so where where is the power of the architect truly lie within the fabric of their communities?

C I think it's it's it's always going to be within the power of design and and advocating for that. And I think there is a true value to pushing, design of buildings and systems, whether you wanna advocate from an aesthetic standpoint, a climate act standpoint, a community standpoint, they're all intertwined. And I think it's through that full integration of both a public process and a co design process that creates exceptional architecture. So I think that is truly where we can advocate, and I think that's it hopefully is a way that we could create also better citizens through that process because everyone lives in a built environment. Not everyone lives in an equal built environment, and so that's how when we can use our tools and our advocacy for better built environments, we could create more advocates even if it's not directly, you know, we have to look beyond just the client that gave us the brief. We have to look at every person that's going to inhabit that as becoming a better advocate for design and for the design of their spaces that they live in.

A We wanted to jump into, the Design Trust Chicago. Chicago. Can you tell us a little bit about the inspiration behind that and, adding this to your list of things that you're already it sounds like you've got between teaching and working and advocacy already a full plate of, what you're doing at Layton Design.

C Yeah. So it's all it's with my cofounders, El Rommel and Palai Aguirre Serrano, a borderless. We had always complained that there wasn't a commute a true community design center in Chicago. We have an amazing design community. We have both architecture and, you know, interior graphic design communities that are very generous with time, which is fantastic, and we have strong design institutions that focus, you know, various semesters Mas, that equivalent. We don't have the Detroit Design Center where our planning commissioner, Maurice Cox, you know, was affiliated with. We just don't have that in Chicago, and that's kinda shocking for a city of our size. So we always said we would kind of create it 1 day, and that day came, as part of 2020 where there were a variety of different challenges and opportunities that came out of that year.

C 1 of those opportunities was to have seed funding to start a community design center. So that kind of pushed us to actually do it, instead of just talk about it was going through, you know, a couple months sprint to actualize what the nonprofit would be, what we would focus on, and then think about a strategy. That was 2020 where it came to be. 2021 last year, we really went through a series of community and public space mostly public space focused projects. And then where we really see the nonprofit is very Chicago and Chicago suburb specific, so this isn't a national design organization. It's very Chicago specific, and where we saw the area where we fit is there are all these community design projects and and organizations that come to us, you know, come to Layton, come to Palos form firm Borderless, come to many of our friends who actually need help 2 steps before they should actually be talking to us. And if we can't take on that project or 1 of our friends, there isn't anywhere to direct them to help them get to a point of project development in terms of program or site or space that they could apply for a grant, that they could go talk to an architecture firm, that they could, you know, get a construction budget. So it's like, how do we provide design services for all the community design projects that need to need support before they could actually apply for the multitude of grant opportunities that the city has.

C That's where we started to fall. Our first projects last year, were public space focused, and then we hired to our first 2 people in the this year. So that's very exciting to have a a full time community designer and then a full time operations manager. And so which is great. That means eventually maybe I don't have to do that, but we'll we'll see. We're slowly growing in that way and and really trying to find, and are fortunate to find what the what a community design center would be in Chicago and the services that we would both provide from a design standpoint, supporting research and advocacy, and then also really trying to support and advocate for design within city systems and learning from our peers all across the country and you know all the 1 great member organizations that are part of, you know, association for community design, learn from them and how they have handled the first 5 years, the first 10, and the first 20.

A I think Evelyn has talked about this a lot in the context of, like, just standard projects, like helping clients, you know, being a resource to potential clients even before they know that they need an architect, is so important in terms of like how do we create more architecture that has substance and depth? I mean, this is sounds like a powerful way to really tap into the community in Chicago to to figure out what is that pipeline and how do we get more people that, may not be the traditional owner that we've had in the historic past of what is available to build architecture, but new new voices and new representation of who could be an owner and who could infuse a project with a potential idea of what the built environment looks like.

B Yeah. How do those owners find you? Like, you know, because I don't think the public inherently knows or even nonprofit, like executive directors inherently know, like, oh, we should go to the Design Trust for Chicago for that. So is that is that your you working with a lot of agencies that are then, like, referred?

C Did you just look at our strategic plan? No. I didn't. No. Because I like, that's what we have to figure out. I mean, exactly what you just said. Because first, it's like, okay. 1st, stabilize us, and then now how do we go let people know we're here? So 1 of I mean, first task, the operations manager has been here about a month, and then that is their task. Number 1 is how you have to go tell everyone about us.

C We have to start to make these introductions because our first we had a technical assistance design grant. And the way that the applicants came through that process is it was with 1 within 1 degree of kind of all of us. The cofounders, you know, our social media, that's how they found us through our individual networks. But we have to spread that further, and so that's the task of the operations manager to start to build that relationship. We already know because design trust has to have relationships and partnerships that don't exist within the 3 cofounders. Right? Because that's a critical fatal flaw if that's how an organization grows. So we were very intentional to start to think about we need to lead with the people that we employ that they're the face of this organization. We can we can support and get everyone there, Elle, Paula, and myself, but it it can't it can't be Katherine's organization.

C It can't be Paula's. It can't be Elle's. It has to be it has to grow into a design and community organization on its own to allow it to be sustainable beyond us. Mhmm.

A The founder dilemma.

C It is. And we we I mean, we've all we're we're actively working on projects where we have founder dilemmas going on, but I think that's the 1 thing we're we're trying to, plan for thoughtfully.

A Yeah. And and I think, you'll be successful because Chicago is inherently, like, such a rich, fabric of design and architects who really care about community. I think that that should, if I had to guess, be, inherent to the fabric of Chicago and and the potential that it has to take off. I'm really curious also about your entrepreneurial journey. Obviously, you had to go into entrepreneurship because of the recession, but you naturally have that in your personality, I think. The more that I've gotten to know you, you seem like you're, entrepreneurially minded. And I just were curious. There's so few women out there who are launching businesses in the architecture space on their own.

A You're 1 of them. Tell us what you've learned. What would you what would you share with other architects who are thinking about starting a firm?

C I have a better plan than I did because starting a firm because you have no other plan is a very, very bad business model. I think things to to start with is really think if you want to found a firm on your own or not. Because I would say you don't need a male partner, but having a partner or multiple partners is a much more sustainable way if you want to grow to 10 to 12 years of existence, because that was a barrier and I still hit that is, like, it's to a lot still falls on the owner, whether it's from a whole entire operations and administration side. It also sometimes is a a client perspective side of, like, you know, clients just like to talk to the boss. It doesn't matter what field you're in, they always want to. Even if your project manager is much more skilled and and knowledgeable in this area than you are. They just wanna talk to the boss. And I think also in terms of complementing areas where you have a gap.

C You know? I'm good in some areas, but I don't have a technical mindset in other areas, and so how do, how could I have thought about who's a complimentary firm leadership if I started with that plan versus saying, like, I'm gonna go it alone. And it's very much so if I was a white male, you'd be like, oh, that's a total stereotype. You thought you could start a firm on your own, right, with this, like, the sole genius, but, you know, because that's what architecture is in many ways in terms of an example, but, you know, I don't think that's a good model to to try and do it on your own alone in terms of leadership. And so it's been thought, you know, very conscientious especially in the last couple years of building the team to have a firm in place where we could really start to think about employee ownership and, you know, people who are interested in growing a firm that way and then channel like, kind of having a larger business brain instead of just my brain. It becomes the firm brain of, are we going like, how do we talk about ourselves? How do we talk about this project? How do we, what's our, you know, it's not only, what's our internal design process, but what's our business process? Because we're all gonna do this together. And so you have to be thinking in that way, and then you have to hire the people who want to, you know, take on that challenge with you.

A I I feel like I've been going through that learning curve, myself since I started my business. Like, I always I always knew I wanted to run a firm and so like I was when I jumped in, I was like, yeah, I'm all in. Let's do this. But then you run up against like your own limitations or the owner becoming the bottleneck, which like has been so insightful for understanding, like from when I was in on the employee side, the frustrations that you have with firms and their limitations of what they can do and operationally, it just I think it really comes down to the dilemmas of being the owner and and the bottlenecks that happen just because of capacity and your own I don't know. It's it's it's just it's completely changed my perspective actually being on the owner side of running a business

C Yeah. Yeah.

A From where I stood when I was an employee.

C Yeah. And I think, you're up for the better. Has it changed your perspective?

B No. I I mean, that was just yeah, I was just gonna say, was it for it was it for the better or is it just complicate things?

A I think I have more empathy for owners. Like, I and that sounds really bad, but, like, when I was an employee, I could only see it from my perspective. And now that I'm on the owner side, I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. I get it. And and, like, maybe that's just, I don't know, shows my lack of, thinking about those things in advance, but it's become enlightening, you know, when you are really pressed against the limits of yourself as an owner and where you're trying to reach and you you're either missing that partner that can compliment you or you're, you just don't have bandwidth because you run out of energy. Like, whatever it is, like, it's it's revealing.

C Yeah. It is very revealing, and I think the next step is then owning that and then trying to figure out. I was like, okay. I know I'm the bottleneck. I know I because of that, I'm the weakest link in this whole system at the same time, the most powerful, which makes no sense. It's like the strongest, weakest link. And, you know, then trying to find solutions around that. And then, you know, being upfront with everyone in the firm about this, like, okay.

C How do we how do we work through this? How what's our schedule? How do you take more ownership? Let me ask you more questions. And sometimes that's, you know, for some of our staff, they're like, well, I haven't been in that position. Nobody's asked me that. Like, nobody they they sometimes come from firms where they're like, oh, no. I nobody cared about my opinion. And so this is it

B takes them

C it is very sad. So, like, to have that experience in the firms, where it takes a while for them to find their voice and their footing to be able to respond, but once they do, it's like, yeah, that's the greatness that I saw. So, like, let's that's your strength, you know, let's let's capitalize on that to, you know, help you lead then too. Because I think also for my staff, they have to know they could boss me around too. You know? They had to tell me what to do in many ways and should feel comfortable doing that. Conversely, with Leighton, III joke with employees that we're a great firm to work for if you want to leave architecture because you're going to find a, you know, a a leader in myself as a boss who will absolutely, like, 100% push you out the door if you wanna go a different direction. So we have former employees that went and started their own interiors business. They're like, I like more interiors.

C It's like, alright. Let's connect you with this person or this firm to get the experience. People who have gone definitely to larger firms, you know, they want to work on this type of project, but others who went different directions. Some that went and started out of fabrication side, some that went to construction. Some that became, like, went to work, mostly within, like, bike transportation and work for Uber, you know, and build, you know, jump from scratch because they're like, that's the passion of urban design, and I like to bike. You know? So we will push people to follow that because I think that's also part of the way we believe that advocacy for the built environment. Architects can lead that, but that's about creating more knowledgeable advocates about the built environment in all aspects. My favorite former employee is 1 who, like, started a whiskey company.

C So yeah. I know. So that's me. I mean, 1 of our former employees just as part of NextCity Vanguard and part of pushing, you know, Taylor Holloway to that direction is her being able to work for a firm that's doing the work that she wanted to do and being able to find that and then feeling comfortable to take those risks to create her own path in New Orleans, and through firms between Chicago and New Orleans, and now is a leader within her own right because of what she's done, and that's the kind of you could always come back if you want to leave, I'm never gonna be mad, you know, but if you really are thinking about how else can I use what architecture has taught me, but not detail out the corner of a building because that doesn't bring you joy? There are so many other ways and you should have a career that brings you joy, And, you know, I'll always advocate for that. If it's not with us, let's get you on the path where you you are, you know, happy.

B Yeah. That is I mean, that view from an entrepreneur from a small minority woman owned firm, I think it's just it's so incredibly refreshing. Right? I still hear that we don't wanna invest all these time in these people if they don't have, like, the long term mindset of staying at my firm and and getting on the partner track. And that's just 1 aspect that is refreshing. The other aspect that's so refreshing to me is that you then, like, really find the connections to make them, go and do and follow what they are passionate about even if it leaves them away from from the profession because it is true. They then they become better advocates for architects.

C Yeah. And I I'm always amazed that where everyone's gone too. Like, they forged careers that, you know, were that sometimes we do get to collaborate with them, you know, 5 years later, it all comes back around sometimes. But others, it's just impressive to see what people can do. And I get to them reference them to my students and other architects are like, oh, I would Where do I find someone that's doing this? And I was like, oh, I actually know someone, you know, and that's part of always trying to make space for that next generation, that emerging architect, even that seasoned architect to, like, how do you find your path within what I don't think should ever be a narrow definition of architecture. I find it very rich and expansive and I, you know, will always go back to think, like, scope creep can even exist within our profession, and I think we should embrace it.

B Yeah. I I also think you have, like, created the most positive narrative around scope creep that I have ever heard.

C Yeah. I did. Great.

B So latent design, you know, you've, you've talked about how it's been, you and then you and 1 other person, you're now 8 people What's next? Do you has it I'm I'm assuming it's somewhat grown organically, but, like, you, I mean, you do so much and there's an opportunity to do so much more. You know, do are you really looking to to grow the firm or to grow grow the the projects? Like, what's what's next?

C Yeah. That's a it's a it's a good question, and that's part of all the things that we're discussing internally about what's next. So we can see this arc of 12 years. Projects did grow organically, and it it was very much without direction. So in some ways, it wasn't planned. Right? So I I had the entrepreneur mindset of, like, this is interesting. Let me say yes to it and just see where it goes. And now seeing the arc of some projects not only coming from design to completion to, you know, lived in and needing a renovation now, you know, it's like that long on some projects in 12 years.

C But others seeing where where some of that advocacy and systems design where it went elsewhere. And so now over thinking about, okay, I could have a firm for another 10 years, which is a wild prospect to even have that conversation because when I started, it was like, can I make it through today? And now to think about, like, how do we how do we make it through another 10 years? I was starting to think about, okay. It's the work is always going to be a broad definition of community and cultural work, and that's we wanna continue in that path. I think the projects and the team that I've built over the past couple years is now skilled to both tackle the architectural, and and the design and the technical aspects of larger scale projects. People coming from high rise experience, people coming from, you know, airports, coming from, you know, corporate interiors now all together and say like, okay, now we have the technical skills and the experience, which sometimes as a small firm owner is like, do you really have that? It's like, because you only have 2 people, 4 people, 8 people, and you're like, well, yeah, but now we could really put that forward. And so to continue to grow the projects in this community cultural aspect and how whatever the final use of it might be, we'll still go after a bench as much as we will go after a building because I can see in the 12 years of the firm, it all is related. So I will, you know, embrace the small projects as much as I'll embrace the large ones.

A That makes me really curious of if there's an RFP for a bench or if you're just getting that, like, through word-of-mouth. My marketing brain's, like, spinning. Like, how does how do you find out about the bench?

C We have lots of we have lots of benches, in various projects, and I think that's the it's the extension of the public space work. So, I mean, if you go to some of the temporary tactical urbanism parklet projects that I started the career with, that led to projects where we just opened earlier this year where we were part of a team that redesigned all the downtown plaza for the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. So it's like you can't that's that's a bench, that's a temporary bench leads to designing all the public furniture pieces and artwork within a a large scale medical institution that people from all over the globe are going to experience. And not only that first phase, but working on phase 2 and then planning for phase 3. You know. So that's where when you look at that arc, you have to also realize that it will come, that the small projects will lead to larger projects, and I could look at not only the arc of 1 street in the city to track all of our projects over 12 years, but I could also look at how that scale of something that was temporary in activation or place making led to permanent public space and shifted, you know, spatial and systems thinking for 1 downtown area.

A Yeah. You know, as you're talking, it made me think about this kind of experience you go through as an entrepreneur when you jump in. It's kinda like jumping in a really big river and you're, you're swimming and you you start doing the work and you start discovering, like, your voice as a entrepreneur and as a like, in your case, as an architect. And to your point, like, the as long as you're being true to your voice, the projects come. The projects kinda, like, reveal themselves to you. And so, like, then you have this, like, journey down the river as you build your business or build your career. And I think the important part about really understanding your values and your voice as a leader informs the arc of that journey and, like, what the business kind of grows into. So you may not know where you're going, but I think as long as you stay true to who you are, it becomes clear.

C I I think so too. I mean, I I and that's part of 1 of the conversations that we're having, because we're going through a brand refresh. It was originally planned for 2020 when I was celebrating 10 years, but we got to it now. Like many other things, 2 years delay isn't that uncommon. We're we're talking about that. It's like, how do we frame and talk about our projects and tell the narrative of what the firm has done both in terms of design and process so that it speaks to the projects that we continue to want to have, to continue to work on, and that we want to, embrace that there was a a now grown field of community based design and place making that I I'm really proud to say we were part of that emerging trend. And that trend learn and, you know, a decade ago, we learned from people who were doing it a decade before because we we had the networks. We had great people, and I, hopefully, I could advocate and mentor as well as people who mentored me to continue to wanna do that work and find a safe space within the profession to do so.

A Well, we are really excited about what you're doing, and I know that there's a bunch of people and they're probably listening to this episode that are also very excited about what you're doing. So how can our listeners support the work you're doing and champion, you as a small business owner? What what in what ways can we show up for you?

C Support all the links. So I think for latent design, I mean, how supporting our work, I mean, I really do appreciate if if you heard this and you're like, hey, that inspired me. Just send an email or tweet or an Instagram note. Like, I love that. If you're working in a city that isn't Chicago and we're like we need that type of thinking here, send me something that you're like this project needs you or tell your firm your firm needs us, you know. And that's also how some of our projects came to be is advocates within firms saying like let's let's have this Chicago mine come to Minnesota or Portland or New York elsewhere, and we will reciprocate on that because Chicago needs great, you know, San Franciscan mines, New York mines, you know, cans and mines all here as well to bring energy to our design city. And then for Design Trust, absolutely go to the website, We try not to, do, like, end of year fundraisers, but I think it's mandatory for nonprofits. So eventually, at some point, that newsletter will say, give us some money.

C But, also we have we still have many design projects and opportunities within Chicago. And then even if you're not in Chicago, we do have a research platform called Mapped, which is a website which is mapping community based projects and also starting to filter through detailed information about them. So if you're it's very Chicago specific right now, but it is designed to when you're like, I need an example of, you know, a housing project that was community based or a public space or, like, where can I find this quality of life plan? You have to do the Google searching yourself, but what if we actually just place those projects on a map, digital map, had the information, then you could start to see what the relationships are, of your project compared to other projects. So that's something that we're growing that just launched, and we're growing out over the next couple years. So you could always, join 1 of our mapathons at Design Trust and input some projects. Love a good design data entry session.

B Well, thank you, Catherine, so much for being here today. I think I I got an entrepreneur bug again even for kind of the the micro pop ups. And I'm like, oh, there's so many opportunities to to do that in so many other different cities. We're gonna have to circle back on that conversation.

C For sure.

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