A Large Firm Perspective on Innovation & Transformation: CannonDesign

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

B Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B 1 of the things that we actually haven't done on our podcast, and we've had a few listeners inquire about it, is actually invite 1 of the large firm leaders to be with us. So today, we have Brad Lukanick from Canon Design on. And I actually first met Brad during the Practice Innovation Lab, which was actually interesting to me because we had this whole application process that people had to go to. So to actually have 1 of the CEOs of the large firms apply to the Practice Innovation Lab and then be an active participant in it was, for me, a sign that he's thinking a little bit differently than other leaders. So we go back to 2017, and I've seen how Canon has grown and evolved, even through the pandemic, looking at new lines of business. So so I'm really happy to bring Brad to the show.

C Hi. Thanks for having me. That session, that innovation lab was a lot of fun, and, I walked away from that session thinking a lot about the future. And I know we had a couple of activities to do, but actually, it's been really interesting following the people that were there in the last couple of years and where they're making impact, and I think that that's been even more inspiring than what we did in that room those couple of days.

B Yeah. Absolutely. You actually just reminded me. I think we can add a few more guests to our podcast, to upcoming podcast episodes by looking at some of the people that have, changed their whole career paths because of the Practice Innovation Lab. So, yeah, thank you for participating.

C Yeah. I mean, that was wildly talented people, and I'm happy to be here. So I

A do think that, similarly, I've noticed canons made this pivot in recent years, and I know that, Brad, you're very interested in a lot of the same topics that we are. So why don't we jump into this conversation by helping listeners understand who you are, what your current position is, and what you're interested in.

C Good. Okay. So I am Brad Lukanek, and I was asked by our board of directors back in December of 2016 to go and move from being the firm's national education leader, thinking about strategy for the future of education and moving into this role of becoming the next CEO of the firm. Our previous CEO had served for 26 years, and the board did, a big search. And then they did interviews. And once it became unanimous, they asked me to serve. And so for the last several years, I've been doing that. I think what has been interesting to me is while I am trained as an architect and I practice as an architect, I actually grew up in construction.

C So my father was a contractor, and every summer, I grew up on construction sites. And so, I've always had a, passion for seeing how things go together, get constructed, assemble. And I think 1 of the most impactful moments was when a subcontractor or, GC said, why do you wanna go to the dark side of architecture, Suggesting the schism between good and evil maybe. I'm not sure quite what it was, but I've never understood the silosation of the profession and the building industry. And I think the last 5 or 6 years at Canada Design has all been about how to have greater design impact in the absence of, reinforced silos and just breaking down those silos and trying new things?

B I think a lot of people will probably know or have heard of Canon design, but I don't think they fully understand the scale of Canon. So, you know, how many employees are you at? Where are you located globally? Help us understand how large Canon is right now.

C Sure. It started in 1915, in Buffalo, New York. And so it's over a 100 years, and it was started by a father and 2 sons. And 1 of the sons was an architect, 1 was an engineer, and this it started as this idea of an integrated practice even from the start. Today, the firm is just over 1200 people, has about 16 offices, primarily North America, and North America includes, Toronto. And then we have a growing presence in Mumbai, India. We've kinda put a stake in the ground that said, while we do international work, we've had a key focus of focusing where we choose to be internationally with the, you know, the formal definition of an office, but we continue to work all around the world.

A I think what's been interesting as you stepped into this role and you kinda alluded to this in your introduction, but you've been really interested in asking questions about how do we shift the way that we're doing things and what if we did it differently. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how Canon is leading transformation and innovation, as you're kinda trying to help guide the firm towards this different direction than maybe where it's come from in its, history dating back to 1915.

C Sure. Well, it first starts with, I think, my interest in trying to figure out where the industry is going, and I think a lot about, change in terms of decades. And so when we started this decade at 2020 and no 1 saw the pandemic coming or just a few people did, I was trying to think about 2030, and I do a lot of reading. And some of the reading that I've been down doing is about the 4th industrial revolution, and the whole intersection of, biological and kind of technical and this intersection of Internet of things and just how our worlds may change. I think the pandemic accelerated it. What I've tried to do is get to work with really smart people thinking about what is the future look like and whether it's the future of health care, the future of education and learning, the future of science and tech. We try to do that within the discipline, not only of architecture, but in the elements of design. And so, we have been on this sort of crazy quest to to think about how we can have greater impact, and we've launched this whole consulting practice, which, is called Blue Cottage of Canon Design, which is about working with the c suite.

C And I say launch, it was actually a long established, consulting practice that joined us, and my partner, Juliet Rogers, and her team came on board. And we're all about thinking about things well before they need architecture on how do people just think about the future of hospitals and what that critical care is like. And we added a software company internally, and we then, in the middle of the pandemic, launched a factory. So get this, a bunch of architects and engineers and a big 120, 000 square foot factory, prototyping and building modular units, to try and think about how the construction industry and lean manufacturing can change. And we're, pleased to report that the factory is almost at capacity trying to prototype all this stuff. So it's been an interesting ride, but it's really on the heels of just fun, talented people.

A 1 of my curiosities in in what you're doing is the scale. Like, you said that you guys are over 1200 people. You're talking about multiple different additional service lines for the business that's that bridge well beyond just the traditional model of what architects are offering. So when you are managing the scale of that change, like, what are some of the things that you're thinking about in terms of trying to both lead it and implement it?

C So the funny thing about scale is I don't so I always profess that I would never work at a large firm. So I started my whole career working at small firms and really getting to work on very hands on things. And my upbringing before Canon Design was working with Hardy Holtzman Pfeiffer, on building buildings and the craft of building, and Malcolm Holtzman was a great man mentor. I think it's less to me about the question of scale and more about the ability to harness resources. So it's it's a lot easier for us to be bold and say, we're gonna start a research group to do x, y, and z, and basically allocate both talent and money for it. I think the problems are the same, whether it's a small community hospital or a $1, 000, 000, 000 large scale hospital. The challenges, while different, are similar in nature. And the large the larger firm allows us to pull resources to try experiment and get a few things wrong or get a lot of things wrong and hopefully a few things right.

B So you mentioned the addition of the strategy group. You mentioned this factory and a kind of a new line of business that you've created during the pandemic. Are there any things that really ended up changing internally from a business operations process during the pandemic and, you know, people going home and return to the office?

C So, the answer is in part, yes. But actually, I think we, like a lot of organizations, have a long journey ahead on that. So, I mean, the first, everyone pivots to the remote work, and now there is the big question about what is work, what is home, what is the intersection of work and home and all of that. I think the problems that we have are no more unique than others. I think what we have not tackled is if this is really the next industrial revolution or the, the 4th industrial revolution, if you look at how society has really changed from in the last 1, kind of an agricultural based mindset of 6 days a week to a industrial revolution of 5 days a week and the certain schedule that we've done, which is precipitated for a 100 years or so. I think we're on the cusp of a work life change in the in the decade ahead that will create both challenges and opportunities. And it's all about being resilient. I could imagine us moving towards a 4 day experience and a different experience, which also curates learning, retooling of jobs, careers, professions, so that the intersection of work and learning goes hand in hand.

C And we've even talked as our latest strategic framework is how do we think about the future of acquiring new skills in a world that's changing around us while delivering whatever the future of, as we call it in a profession, the instruments of service that are our product.

A I think that's a fair question. And I'm wondering I mean, obviously, you've been practicing, long enough to have seen the trajectory of how the industry's changed with the introduction of, new technology into the way that we work. You've you've probably watched your firm go through the whole, like, BIM transition. And now to your point, like, where we are really needing employees to be able to stay in front of skill sets, and that requires constant education and, you know, basically up leveling, you know, your skill set continuously. Can you talk maybe a little bit about that shift from your perspective of how you've seen that need for education in practice, where it's previously been more of something that was required in education?

C Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting is I really valued my educational background to how to become an architect, how to be trained. In some cases, the skills that I learned in school were how to problem solve and think, And what I think is really fascinating right now is how our clients are asking us much bigger problems than just about a building, but to be their partner into this great unknown or this great abyss that they don't even know what their future of, and you can complete any sentence in terms of typology. I think it is sort of on 1 hand inspiring to be asked and terrifying on the other to be asked because we're asked to explore as whole new problem set. And and to think critically is to have a good foundation, but also know you have to be avid acquirer of knowledge and the amount of information being disseminated right now in real time through the noise of data and good directional data is increasing. And so I think we almost have to be kind of data scientists overlaying with design thinking and then methodology in the process. And I think that's where I think the future of the profession is so fertile. And I think we have a lot of runway to go.

C I don't think it is all about documenting and detailing in the same way. I think we can take it to a certain level of design, and that's why we're doing the factory to figure out how little you need to draw to convey intent to then move into fabrication, and how can you actually optimize and shorten the construction period and focus on the bigger problems on the upfront. Hence, the blue cottage, the consulting, those pieces where we're spending more and more energy.

A Probably more fun, like, too.

C Well, it's fun and terrifying because you realize that there are some really great clients that have the notion of idea and seek help. And then there are those that are others that are smart, but are trying to go it alone, and you find I don't know what's right. It's just a privilege to be asked to be a partner with those clients that are sort of terrified and wanna take you on their journey with them.

B What is happening in the conversation, or is it because you have a service like Blue Cottage that those clients are becoming your partners and asking you to be a part of bigger problem solving questions? I feel like I, you know, there's so many partners and principals that I run into over the course of my AIA that say, you know, we want to be the first person that any client owner calls when they have any problem, not just architecture. Is there something specific that Canon Design is doing to drive those conversations and open up that opportunity?

C You know, I try and think about that, and I oscillate on my answer depending on a a given situation or a given day. I think it's in part by being there earlier on the conversation. I also think that that the profession that we do is very much about relationships, and I believe that people, if they've had a positive relationship along the journey, seek and find you out because they trust you're gonna solve the next problem for it. And I don't think it's necessarily based on what we've done, but it's also in part by the teams and the people that we bring along the way. And they're not always the same because the problems are different. And I think I mean, sort of my hope is is that Canon design is kind of in the stealth mode trying to learn, be ahead, and then problem solve along the way, but not to be too, audacious in flaunting it because I think knowledge is a continual process, and I think you can't get too confident in your knowledge until you actually dot walked in those shoes and realize that it's constant and it's going to change every time you step into the room. So I

B have a follow-up question on that because, I I mean, I don't disagree with you that so much of it is building that client relationship. But I do feel like a lot of architecture firms have problems delivering consistently on the client experience. So is there anything that can and or recommendations that you can give to to kind of make sure that teams are delivering consistently across the board, especially because, you know, you're operating at such a large large scale. Is that inherent to your professional development in within Canon or how you communicate your mission and values? What what is helping create a more consistent customer experience?

C Okay. So, first off, I'm not convinced that we are there where we all aspire to be. I think we could do better, and I think in part we could do better because there's such a a talent shortage right now in the profession to deliver and work. We have we're always seeking, people. I think I think what it is that we try and do, and I've seen it differently in my journey working with different firms is we try and ask questions and be better listeners than we are talkers. That's 1 thing that I see across the different markets is those great leaders in the organization are really listening to what the problem is versus showing, okay. This is our 6 large scale hospital. You should pick us based on typology of experience, but trying to actually listen to the problem.

C And then at the next meeting, bringing somebody into the room based on what you heard. We're not bashful about pulling in Josh Messenger, who's leads the the modular factory to a client problem about thinking about how to do stackable modular in a health care, patient room experience, especially in the middle of New York, which we just did. So I think we will pull people in, but it's only coming through listening. And it's it seems so simple, and yet, I find so much of our profession talks more than it listens. I'm actually talking more than I even planned on in this 1. I wanted you to ask more questions. See?

A I know. Well, it's pretty hard when you have 2 interviewers, like, directing all the attention towards you, but I guess, you know, 1 thing that I'm really curious about and wanna get into is, you know, as you're, as you're trying to lead your team towards this vision of a, of a new way to practice, which I agree it's it's not necessarily that everyone's or anyone has it figured out. It's just this idea that it could be better and to to experiment, to iterate. What are some of the things that you're trying to step away from? Like, what are those, I don't know if they're mistakes, but just missteps by firms that maybe you see some other practices holding on to that you're trying to really, like, differentiate towards a new direction?

C Yeah. So I have 2 it's maybe a 2 part answer. In 1 part, it's to try and admire and appreciate architecture and engineering and the intersection of those 2 things, but realize that that is not the pure boundary of where we should go. I think a lot of firms today think about being top of game in perhaps those areas. Our path is different. I'm not sure it's right, but our path is to be more expanded in this idea of what we call an omnichannel design firm. And the omnichannel design firm is about trying to move from a 3 year relationship with the clients you designed for a year, you build 2 years, and you hope to get the next commission into somewhat of a 30 year relationship. So the software company is about doing facility assessments and and, relationship building on aging facilities.

C The consulting continues to be a renewal on the future of whatever topic there is. And then along the way, there are building commissions to do it. And if we can move to a 30 year relationship that is in this multiple facets of design and design thinking, it's much more broad, then we're not just a commodity. I very much appreciate the art of design in architecture, but I think our calling is to be bigger problem solvers from what's out there, and that's, I think, the subtle difference. I also think that the other part of this answer is, and other firms have versions of this, but we haven't we have doubled down on the idea of living center design. It's gotta have an impact. It's gotta improve some element of society and our clients, and we have to do good and do right by it. We also have these things called maxims, which are kind of our guiding principles, and and 1 of them is about meet be meticulous.

C And it's no matter whether you're an accountant working on a spreadsheet or designing a building, like, be meticulous from your craft, your assembly of things, your meeting notes, your outreach to the client, and doing that and doubling down. So the living center design coupled with the whole multiple channels of design, I think is the path, and I think it's not just architecture for us. Firmly respect firms that choose to do it. We just are on a different path.

B You brought up several things during that last response, and I I wanna, ask maybe it's kind of a same question, but I also want to make sure that our listeners heard you. So when you look at the business of architecture and you talk about, being a commodity, where do you see what we're doing most likely to end up as a commodity? And then the the tag on to that is where is our greatest value add right now as you see it?

C Yep. So I think there's and this has been interesting. We've been doing a strategic framework in the firm for the next 5 years and talking about ways you compete. Well, ways you compete are price, ways you compete are perhaps expertise, and perhaps another way is differentiation. I think the commodity side of the firm, of the nature of the industry is really about the process. You seek architects, you do a qualifications, then you get the phone call that says, okay. You all are the same. We could pick any of you, and this this is the fee of this firm, but we like you somewhat better.

C And that's kind of a decision making process. Anyone could deliver. I think our value is clients can't imagine not doing this thing without you because they think you're gonna get them there faster versus just delivering a building. And I think the profession has a whole bunch of things that we likely could think about not doing. Let AI, let intelligence, let machine learning do the next things of codes and standards in terms of bathroom layouts, door hardware schedules, all those things that are critical in nature for critical in nature for health, safety, and welfare, but may not be the highest use in a essentially declining workforce in terms of talent pool. So let's focus on the big challenges and the problem solving and let machine learning, automate some of the stuff that are repetitive in nature that do not provide differentiation and focus on greater levels of differentiation in expertise, in knowledge, in assembly of teams.

A We are so on board with all of that. Like, that's exactly, I think, a theme that keeps coming up with us. And I guess I'm wondering implementation on that because it is really aspirational to, you know, a lot of times I wonder, like, are we are we being too, hopeful in some of these ideas that we're talking about? But in trying to manage and bring this to fruition with your team, how have you found success in actually bringing that, to be?

C Okay. It's hard as hell. Let's be really clear about this. It's not a linear journey, and, I think there's bumps and starts. So do I think that the evolution of the industry is finally upon us more of the so than other decades that it's been talked about? Yes. And I think it's because we have an industry out there that is declining in terms of the number of people with knowledge of craft to assemble things. So not necessarily in our profession, but the contractors need to build complex things, and we're going to have to be their partners more so to think about problem solving to do it. We're gonna put our attention there.

C And with our own declining labor force, we're gonna need to rely on technological advancements. I think part of what I'm most excited about is we just had an individual join us in the firm by the name of Brooke Gramier as our CIO. She sits on our leadership team, and she's focused not only on the internal thinking about hardware, software, and uses of things, but really about how to develop new tools for our clients, for the industry, and all, and it's and it's as much of the time about being a leader in developing new things versus trying to just source what's out there. I think, also, it's an interesting time not even beyond just labor, but that Silicon Valley is taking notice of the building industry more so than I've seen in previous times, and, every once in a while, I get tours of of building focused things happening in Silicon Valley, and I'm like, they're coming. They're coming fast. And then I say, does that change the game, and does that change the way we need to think about the delivery? And if I pause long enough, I I then I think about, okay, we need to think there. So I I am not suggesting that Canon design has it figured out. I'm also not suggesting that there is only 1 path.

C I just know that change is imperative if we're going to continue to be a very relevant operating system for the design industry.

A I fully agree. And I think, to me, what the moment is about right now is, are you a leader who is willing to ask yourself, can we do this differently? And are you willing to take the risk to discover a different path forward? Or are you holding on to what you know? And are you too afraid to test new ideas in pursuit of better possibilities? And so I think in my mind, there's a split between firms that are looking forward and saying, we don't know the answer, but we're gonna try and walk down this path and figure it out to the best of our ability versus firms that are saying, we're gonna continue to perpetuate the things of the past. I

C think they I think they're missing the opportunity to up the game of what our profession really can do, in doing so. Some of the the peer CEOs in the large firms that I truly admire are right out there with us trying to do something different in a very different way, but there's still a level of admiration, that I have, and it's fun to actually call them up and say, okay. How do we do this? How do we troubles you know, think about this? There's this thing, that I talk about in the strategic framework called the cone of plausibility, And it's this idea that the history of the firm in this in our case, it's goes back to 1915 is this line, and you can talk about all the moments that define you of who you are today. But in front of you is this cone of plausibility. If you take the straight line or near the straight line, 5 or 10 degrees, that is what's probable, and that's where I think many many individuals in the world find comfort and solace about going. Then that just outside of that zone is what's probable. It's slightly maybe uncomfortable. You would think it is different, but it is highly probable that we could have an impact.

C And then what's really out there on the extreme edges of this cone is called the preposterous. And I think, it's always fun when you straddle the line. I don't think you can be in preposterous all the time, but I think you can straddle between probable and preposterous every once in a while and be willing to, try things, and then then it becomes that straight line behind you and you gotta do it all over again. So.

B The interesting thing about that framework that you set up is about, like, probable and past preposterous. I think the typical firm owner it's it's a mindset shift, right, from that's risky, and that is really, really risk, really risky, and we shouldn't touch it. So how how should we begin looking at at risk differently? And as we look at expanding our services, you know, does that offer a safe cushion around that risk proposition, if that makes sense at all?

C It does. 1st and foremost, I think of risk is the premise of do no harm. You need to take risk that doesn't do harm. And by harm, I mean, taking such blatant risk that you could probably bring down the firm, you could hurt people along the way because you're you don't have agency into something. But outside of that, it's thinking about where can you try something and where can you create positive impact and does it have a value and a purpose? The modular factory is not because we're trying to diversify out of architecture. We're trying to think about working with some of our clients that wanna reduce, workforce housing from 15 months to 9 months of construction through leaner manufacturing principles, and how might we, in the shortage of labor workforce of the future, think about being their partner along the way and discovering how do you draw the right amount to then fabricate, to then deliver, to then change the game and deliver things 8 months faster, and that the 2 year timeline for the delivery of things changes. We didn't launch the modular factory just because we wanted another revenue stream. We wanted to solve a problem, and I think that's probably 1 of those things that are in the preposterous things.

C No 1 would think, like, if you said, oh, we're gonna launch a factory. I think 4 years ago, it's preposterous. Now it's so funny to hear the dialogue about our people and talking about what they've seen when they tour the plan or go there or post on social media. And it's now sort of foundational to some people in our firm's way of thinking maybe differently. It's really fascinating.

A I was encouraged by a friend to ask you about Canon's AMP program. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is?

C Yep. So it is the idea that innovation doesn't have to happen from just the top down, and then it can happen from anywhere. So there's 2 actually programs that I'm proud of. 1 is called our AMP, which is our in house incubator where people can submit ideas. And instead of it just being ideas and ideation, they actually have a peer group that they submit to. So the team is built on a business mind, a legal mind, an HR talent mind if needed to provide critical feedback of how you go from ideation to product development. And whether it's MEP or lighting sensors or in the middle of COVID, we did a COVID shield, that we prototype. It's in 2 parts.

C 1 is to see what we could launch, but also to try and provide a pathway for people to think in a construct of how to launch something. I think it was what came right before AMP. I couldn't credit AMP for it. But as an individual that started the software, the facility optimization software group started as an AMP, early AMP idea, and we incubated it to this software company portion of the business. So that's 1 of it. The other thing that we launched, was Openhand Studio, which is about trying to have ways for people to identify things in their communities and out their communities to improve it. And so people with 5 to 6 slides make a case for why the firm should do, an effort either pro bono, or reduced fee that actually betters the community in good. And so I think whether it's AMP, whether it's Openhand Studio, the idea of being embedded in innovation or in your communities is kind of a foundational thing.

C And so but it's fun. It's fun to read those submissions and see that. It's hard as hell, though. I mean, the especially on the AMP side to incubate to from ideation to reality, and some people have, I think, learned a lot along the journey about taking product to market.

B So earlier in the conversation, you alluded to, you know, other conversations that you have with other fellow large firm owners. So there is this entity called the Large Firm Roundtable, which technically isn't affiliated with the AIA. Can you help us explain a little bit about who and what the Large Firm Roundtable is? And then to whatever extent, talk to us about the conversations that some of the world's biggest CEOs are having about the future of architecture.

C So the large firm round table is a ability for large firms to get together essentially twice a year, just talk about some common industry objectives, problems, signals out there, and their subgroups. So there's a the technology subgroup, there's an HR subgroup, there's a legal subgroup, and it's for like minded peers to at least in a antitrust way share and openly exchange things that might make the industry better. 1 of the things that we have been talking about and came out right before the pandemic was, how does the profession be at the front of the the line for all the change that's coming and not be a second thought to all the technological innovation. And so we had a little bit of a hiccup and a pause with the pandemic, but we picked it up right after. And we're we are in the midst of launching with members of the LFRT that chose to sign up a consortium to try and tackle a series of things that go across the industry to improve it through this technological consortium, especially on the digital front. The idea is is that it's not gonna just be exclusive for the large firms, but that after a couple of years, we try and move it to a subscription model. So I think that's pretty amazing. There's lots of consortiums out there in other industries and multifaceted industries if you're following the digital twin consortium where multiple industries are coming together.

C This is another idea about we are better together as a profession to try and tackle some things that we might not be able to do alone, and I think that's 1 example. I think the other thing has been the push on the DEI front, the diversity, equity, inclusion, and there's been a whole task force of CEO representatives and HR representatives to try and move beyond the status quo in the industry, which is really great. Almost every 1 of our meetings has an update on JEDI, and our initiatives that we're pushing forward. I think the other last thing is is that we're trying to understand the signals bigger signals out there. And so we'll have economist presentations and and, external voices come and try and share. What do we think is out there in the world for us? So that we're at least a step ahead or we didn't say, I didn't see that coming, and that's a lot of fun.

A It's really insightful to know that, that the large firm leaders are collaborating in some ways because I think a lot of people wouldn't assume that. They would probably view you all as competitors, but it sounds like there is good comradery and you all are able to team up in the right ways to make sure that, the large firm perspective is helping to lead the profession forward in terms of the areas that are most imperative. So I'm wondering, can you give us a snapshot of what those conversations were like in the pandemic when things were really going sideways? Like, were you all reaching out to each other? Were were you guys having a lot of conversations as you were trying to figure out how to lead?

C We were really having conversations. We end ended up increasing our frequency in the pandemic, although virtual, from the 2 times a year to 4 and sometimes 5, and they'd be these 2 hour sessions. And we take on a topic of, first and foremost is, how is remote work work working? How is the mental health of our people? Are we thinking differently about the return to the office in air quotes? And you would at least get different perspectives of where people were. And so some firms in certain states were saying, we are requiring everybody to be back in 4 days a week, and we really want them in 5, and then you are having other firms in multifaceted regions to say, we've actually given up our leases in these in these 2 locations just to see what happens, and then you learn all the stuff in between. And I think that's been very rewarding. The other thing for me personally has been to spend time that is run by the Aspen Institute, where it is a diverse set of thinkers. The best I'm part of the best company impact council, which is trying to forge ahead with, you know, small businesses like ourselves, and, yes, a 1200 person qualifies as and defined as a small business in the in the publicly traded world and all that. So I think going to things that are not in your normal field of vision has been a game changer for me.

B Back to Janine's question about kind of collaborating and talking with 1 another. I mean, where I've I've been in firms or I've seen, firms that shall go unnamed where, you know, even the project managers have different

C libraries when it comes to details.

B So, you know, small, medium, any size firm to really share but, you know, small, medium, any size firm to really share knowledge in a meaningful way that doesn't impact our ability to compete in a competitive market.

C Okay. So let's just be clear. I'm not sure that we even have, we don't have that same problem in our firm with, you know, people having their own details and all of that. So I think this is an industry wide profession and that it was not just of a firm. I think the question is, I wish everybody I think picking up there is work to do, and there is experiences around you, and they're not necessarily within their profession. I think the best thing to do, and I wish more and more people would do it, is get involved in various things. Organizations in their profession, volunteering outside of their profession, I have learned far more by being externally focused than I ever would be internally focused and joining things that I probably did not have yet agency to be a part of, but would listen and learn and be able to take I've always felt like things I've always been able to take far more back than I probably can give, and I think I try and do some giving back. I'm actually, doing this, mentorship relationship with somebody else in another firm that started with us and has been and moved on to be more successful.

C I think the whole giving back and doing other things to give back is truly rewarding. I think you just have to try and find a way to be as external and inner uber connected as as possible in all of this.

A I am curious to hear your thoughts on the transition in your career from, you know, just early starting out practicing to going into a focus in education in education what is your vision for where you're gonna continue to focus as a leader in the next 5 years?

C I don't think that the job that I do from time to time is all that different. The problems on the future of education are not that dissimilar from the skill set that you need on the challenges of trying to think of how to move an industry forward, and I really think about this as an industry problem. So how do you take skills that you've learned along the way and apply them to the next level of the problem? And I think that that's been key as I've always taken skills that I've learned and reapplied them to a new thing. I think that's the art of craft and the art of making. What I have also never done is I've never woken up and said, oh, I wanna be CEO. How do I get to be CEO? What are the pathways that I have to do? Which jobs do I have to do? These 3 ladders go up, go down. I mean, when I was asked, I was, like, sort of shocked that I was being considered, and I said, I'd only like to do this if the board is unanimous, and we're gonna run forward and fast and and tackle it together, and then all of a sudden I was asked. I think the next 5 or 6 years, I want to see where we can push the industry and by extension, the firm, and there's a lot to do.

C I also think, my perfect world is to find a time where the firm is in great hands, and then I wanna go try something different and next, perhaps giving back, perhaps, you know, diving into becoming an educator and trying other things. And I think I don't look at a CEO role or any role as a job for life. It's a transitional moment for you creating impact. And I think I see I'm 51, so I have a little bit of a runway. Not gonna work till, you know, 75 or 80, but I'm gonna try and always do something. My grandfather actually was, somebody that said, whatever you do, get up every day and do something better. And so, you know, most memorable thing is he would buy these little plots of of, property in his community and clean up the trash, and then he would resell them and and change the configuration of the neighborhood or something. Little things, like, just gotta do something little that makes an improvement, and that's it.

C But never go for a title, go for the impact.

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