Entrepreneurship in Practice: Taking Risks to Create Value

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. This week, I'm pumped to introduce our listeners to a fresh case study on practice. Brick is a midsize architecture firm based in Oakland, California and Boston, Massachusetts. They've experienced extraordinary growth in recent years and have approached building their practice with a truly entrepreneurial mindset.

B They describe themselves as friendly, unconventional, can do architects. And today, we'll interview founder Rob Zirkle and Lynn Chalk, the team's managing director of business management. We hope to learn more about their business model and even some of the work you've been doing with them, Janine.

A Yeah. Partnering with Brick has been a really wonderful experience. They have been extremely collaborative. And the thing that I appreciate most about them is their leadership mindset. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview. So, Rob and Lynne, welcome to the show. This has, like, been a long time coming. We've been looking forward to this conversation for some time.

A Let's kick it off by having you both share who you are and what your roles are at Brick.

C Okay. Sure. Rob Zirkel. So I'm the CEO of the organization. I'm the founding principal of the company. I think if you boiled my job down into a nutshell, I'm the chief happiness maker. I try really hard to make clients happy. I try hard to make staff happy, make the work great, and the people who interact with the work happy.

C So my job is to just ensure that all of those things are happening when we're when we're doing our projects.

D Hi. I'm Lynn Chalk. I'm the managing director of business management at Brick, and I usually boil it down and just tell people I run the business side of the company. So I handle quite a bit of the financial big portion of the HR side, which is very much woven into our culture, which I would say effectively hits all parts of our company. So that's my job, and thanks for having us, Janine and Evelyn. It's exciting to be here.

A Yeah. We are so glad to have you guys here. And 1 of the reasons that I wanted to bring you on the show is to talk about the entrepreneurial story of the firm and the intention that you guys have to design your practice in a new way, which I think is really refreshing. So, Rob, let's start with you and talk about the origin story for Brick. Can you tell us what made you wanna jump into entrepreneurship?

C How much time do we have? Well, I like a lot of architects, I have my own sort of viewpoint and passion about design, developed a flavor for business and wanted to put all those together. You know, I would say, generally speaking, since the time I finished graduate school in 2001, I sort of launched into the world with the idea that I was going to work for organizations where I could contribute and also learn and use those as a way to evolve my career towards the the goal of owning and running a firm, mostly just to stay as close as possible to decision makers and the projects themselves, stay as close as possible to design, you know, use that passion to help try to, you know, build the practice around it. So I was always pretty motivated to, to have company actually, but it was just a question of sort of how how to get there. And, you know, best laid plans, I think I had talked about this a lot over the years with my business partner, Matt. He and I went to graduate school together, about when the time might be right. He and I had worked together for a long time over the years, and it just so happened that at at the bottom of the great recession so this was the beginning of q4 2010 where I think if you actually look at the statistical bottom of the recession, that was it. So I sort of sensed that and, thought it was actually the right time to jump off a cliff, honestly. So I left.

C I was a principal at a at a company, a successful company, a really good company, actually, at the time, and I just felt like that was the right moment. You know? I felt like I'd sort of reached the end of what my I felt like I felt like I learned as much as possible, both the things to do that are really good and things maybe to avoid, both in business and in practice. And I thought like, well, look. I don't have any clients. I don't have have any projects. I had $10 in the bank. I talked my wife into saying that this was a good, or at least agreeing to it was a good idea. It was a terrible idea, but there's no way that we should have succeeded.

C But, yeah, October 1, 2010, was the 1st day of forging new territories. And, and it was, you know, kind of me at the dining room table in my house with my dog and, you know, fast forward to where we're at now, there's 34 of us. We're working all around the bay area now on the East coast as well. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's been a fun journey. And I think that 1 of the really foundational ideas to begin, it was thinking about the very distant future at that time. So the name of our company was never intended to be a name, you know, a a name after, you know, me or Matt, any other individual that may be part of the firm. The idea was is that we'd have a name that was evocative of what we do, says something about what our viewpoint of timelessness in our work is. The that's where the name Brick came from.

C Also, the idea that, you know, it's a collective enterprise to build an architecture firm. It's not a singular act. And so because it's a collective enter enterprise, the interesting thing about brick is is that when you use them together, they become another thing other than what they are as an individual. You know what I mean? So the what is it? This the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. That was sort of the idea. That's how we've structured how we go after our work. That's how we run the company. That's how we think of our collective work together as an organization.

C At this point in the future, that origin story goes right back to the beginning of imagining a time where that was the case. And so that's what we're building towards, And we're we wanna finish how we started, I guess. You know what I mean? So that's, that's a little bit of a window into how we get going and why it was important.

B I really appreciate that all the younger firms are reimagining their, like everything from their name that like I feel like all the younger firms that are coming into fruition these days are devoid of names and the like, for all the reasons that you said, right, in the best way possible, I feel like yours in particular has greater meaning to it than than some others, rather than picking the street you're on or or an animal for instance, but I appreciate the analogy with the brick. 1 thing before we move on to this next question in our prep sheet that you mentioned was, you know, there were definitely things that you wanted to avoid in the formation of brick. So I'm wondering, you know, if you could think top of mind, what were some of the experiences that you had in previous firms that you didn't want to bring to BRIC?

C No. It's a, that's a good question. I I think the thing that comes to mind the most is there tends to be particularly in the larger companies that I work for, a separation between design and technical execution that is at the service of efficiency. That's the way people kind of organize around that idea that if you have a kind of a design side to your practice and you're constantly turning through ideas and developing those things that they they they move through the project continuum and ultimately get delivered by a team of people that know how to execute it. I think 1 of the 1 of the downsides about that culture is that it creates a real valley between what is perceived as sort of the cool jobs in the practice versus, like, let's say, the not cool job in the practice. To me, they're all cool. Honestly, you when I think back to, you know, some of the experiences I had and really established large firms, you know, honestly, the technical delivery engine of those firms were staffed with some of the superstars of their profession, whereas some of the people on the design side were, like, you know, b plus a minus modern architects on any given day. And and so what I wanted to do was think about the engagement in, you know, investment in in a culture of, I'm gonna call it generalism that doesn't sort of run us down the rabbit hole of a singular type of typology that we worked on nor, a divided set of skills.

C You know, we we really wanted I really wanted a unified set of of skills in our architects. And so when we when we interview and after they after candidates make the the Linchak, you know, kind of let gauntlet, like if she sort of gone through their resume and sort of understands where they came from of what they've done once they, once that group rises to, you know, getting an interview, you know, we're really talking a lot about that culture of generalism, as something really important, being able to be of a mind to solve many problems, but also feeling like you have something to offer at every step of the project continuum. That's not normal, especially the larger you get. There becomes to be much more, like, rigorous systems of and narrow windows of skill sets. But that's 1 thing that no matter how big we get as a company, I I wanna keep and foster as opposed to giving over to the sort of efficiency, you know, kind of viewpoint of really honing in on people's, you know, kind of specific skills to, to create greater levels of efficiency. I'd honestly rather be a little less efficient and have a generalist culture in, in our practitioners. Honestly, I think it binds people together more. It, it eliminates the divisions that you see sometimes just creates a more unified, you know, kind of mindset as collaborators and designers.

C Does that make sense?

B No, absolutely. But I what's interesting to me though, in your mention of generalist culture, right, it doesn't exclude this leadership mindset that you're also hoping to foster. And I'm being told I and I've been told it's something that makes you all truly unique. So what are some of the values that you embrace within that generalist culture? And talk to us more about the leadership mindset that it helps us still.

C The place I would start is is that I'll I'll if I can if I can be an example to anyone in the company as to how I think 1 should move their career forward as an architect, I boil it down into the statement of this. So I sit down with each new person that joins the organization after a Monday morning staff meeting that runs from 9:30 to 10. I sit with that individual for 2 hours, and I essentially tell where the firm came from, how we got here. And I I leave them with the following idea that they now work for a place where it's better to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission, right, which is, you know, intended to be that this is supposed to be by its nature a pluralist practice that many voices can be working together to create great things. It's not an individual idea. It's not an individual taste. It's a it's a collective enterprise of many. And at the end of the day, you should feel like you're empowered to do something and follow something that you're passionate boiling it down to you should think about your time here in that, you know, kind of example of asking for forgiveness instead of permission is me trying to communicate entrepreneurialism to people that work in the organization.

C There's so many facets to architecture and design, you know, like we should wanna welcome many of those in. And and it's too much for 1 person, but it's enough for many. And so you should feel, empowered to to to do that.

A You guys also went through a pretty rigorous process in terms of setting your firm values. Can you tell us what those values are that you lead with on a day to day basis?

C Lynn, you should start on this 1.

D I should hopefully, I can remember them. So we have 8 values, team, nimble, rigorous, bold is 1 of them. I can I can name them all, but it was really the process of it is something kind of also like looking at the questions you sent? And creating the process is something beyond the end product is something I feel like we should be really proud of And something that started a practice that we do at Brick that we've continued of a lot of collaboration around subject matter that is going to touch everyone. So I think that's a pretty big change actually from when Rob and Matt, you know, started the firm. Of course, it was much smaller. Right? It's like how you touch the work, how everyone interacted was very different as opposed to as we've grown. So I think that was an amazing process that we continue to do really letting people talk, understanding the importance of of listening. You know, that's I think as leaders within the company, that's something we've really been trying to get better at and practice more at as being better listeners, which sets, I hope, a good example for the everyone in our company who we hope will all be eventual eventual leaders, but especially our directors and showing them how to the model, the leadership we hope they can emulate.

D I would say, you know, the a lot the way we're currently organized, we put into practice right before the pandemic, And it's taken a bit to get it, probably feeling right and massaging it a bit to get it where it is now, but it does feel like it's really starting to hit on all cylinders. But it took quite a bit of, like, skill set building within our group to get us there, which maybe we all underestimated because we're a part of that too. Right? Building our own skill sets, really letting people fail some. That is so much harder to do than it is to say you know, we can all say, oh, you know, you have to fail to get better. But to let that be a practice is actually a lot harder than it sounds, especially as capable leaders who are here to solve problems. You know, we, at many times, have to go against our instincts. So hopefully, we're just really showing ourselves to be leaders within that, and I know I got a little bit away from the values. But all of our, like, 8 core values is to build and create, you know, hopefully, employees, friends, coworkers, however you wanna say, that can really be them their best selves at Brick and create growth paths.

D So if they choose, they really don't ever have to leave our company to fulfill their career goals. That's what we're trying to build here.

C Yeah. The the values that we have, that was fun process actually because, you know, from the very beginning of the company, it was sort of like everybody did everything, including taking out the trash. That's what you do when you're in the in the boiler room. You know? And as we started to move on in time and we started to get more work and things started to become, you know, a little more self repeating in a way, we started taking on new employees. It we had no turnover for the longest time because all we were doing is growing and growing and growing. And so there was this there was an understanding among all the people in the studio, you know, up until about the time we were, let's say, 10 to 12, what it meant to be here. You know what I mean? And what everybody did, it was unspoken. It was unwritten.

C It was just you know, everybody does a little bit of everything, and you jump from this project to that project. You help this person out who needs it, and everybody, you know, just kind of goes arm and arm. Well, there's there's a point at which you start taking on people who don't realize where that all came from. And so what I started to understand, III remember vividly this sort of I we were interviewing a candidate to join us, and it was a, a young woman that was joining us, had great education background. Went to Columbia. It was just job captain level, just starting really sharp. And, I started to realize telling her about our company that there were people who were coming here that were coming because we were starting to do really cool work, and people were starting to know what we're about, but they didn't really know, like, how many times it almost failed and didn't understand. You know what I mean? So what I wanted to do is we started taking on bigger projects, and we knew we were gonna have to start to expand the staff.

C I wanted everybody to have the same starting point. So what I asked the the staff to do was, like, look, I'm gonna buy lunch every Tuesday. We're gonna spend lunchtime on Tuesdays talking about what makes us us and agree what all of that is. So that number 1, everybody has a common understanding because there were some people who'd been here for a long time, some people had just joined, but it was also gonna be the foundation with which we could start to onboard new people, and everybody has the same starting place. And so my challenge was this to the existing staff. I think at the time there were 14 of us things were at that, at that level of scale, things are starting to, there's just, there's more to manage, right? I mean, there's just more people, more voices. Tipping point where we started the need to think about the systems. And so I asked the staff, like, look, let's discover who's us.

C And so Lynn and, Kim, Kim Kowalski, who's our managing director of marketing and communications. They ran a great, I remember that kickoff workshop. My only ask was is that we come up with authentic words that are us, and they're not anybody else. They're us. And there's no limit to how many of those can be. Seem like maybe that's 4 to 6. Turns out there was 8. Totally fine.

C But we had I have a 100% agreement. There was not a majority thing. Everybody had to agree what what they were, why they were important, how we describe them because I wanted everybody starting from the same page. And it took about 3 months of launches on Tuesdays. You know, we had to miss some Tuesdays because of work deadlines and whatever. But I mean, it was a really fun conversation discovering what people thought about being here. You know, in that first session, it was all Lynn and Kim managing a discussion. Matt and I hardly said a word.

C Mostly just paying attention and observing. And immediately, I was so happy and so proud because it like, I can tell instantly everybody really liked working here. You know, the things that were being said, the things that were, you know, kind of at the top of their minds was really important for us to hear. It just made us psyched actually, you know, that we were kind of heading down the right path. But at the end of all that, we have a code of conduct that are sort of, you know, described in in our value statements that, you know, Lynn uses to get feedback at employee reviews so that we can hold each other I mean, accountable feels like a heavy word, but it's just, again, we wanna treat people and act in a certain way, and we want the work to be of a certain level and of a certain quality. And all of us agree that that's the case when we walk in the door in the morning, and that's how we sort of think about how we interact with each other and how we move through projects and stuff. And it's just sort of nice to have that metronomic relationship of what those are and kind of double back in those and in our employee reviews and just our mindset and stuff. And, you know, they're really for us as a company, we don't like kind of broadcast those out into the world.

C You know, know, we're not like a tech firm and we haven't plastered on the kitchen walls and stuff, but we talk about these things enough and we hold each other accountable to what we, what we believe in here. I think that's where you start to get what Lynn referred to earlier as how you start to see the culture starting to kind of take hold and I'm on all cylinders. I think that was a foundational moment and exercise in that. It wasn't just people getting together to do fun things. As architects, it was like, all right, how do we build a company and how do we grow and how do we ultimately, you know, get to that point where it's a self sustaining and self fulfilling business that, you know, has its own energy and its own momentum.

A I think that that's a huge part of the story and and what I hope our listeners will take away by by hearing this conversation because I think you experienced a lot of growth. You started out as a sole practitioner who's trying to launch a business, and and you've kinda gone through these different milestones of growth where you were around 12 people, and then now you're 30. And in that accelerated growth, new projects, new work, you have had a vision to continue to think about your business as a design problem and to use design thinking to kind of assess how to build the company. And so I I wanna talk more about that process of designing the business and your hope to break away from the traditional model of practice. Like, tell us more about what's informed that and and what's kinda guided you in that direction.

C Well, there's a couple of things, I guess. I'll I'll just I'll start. Lin, you should chime in. The 2 parts I think of, like, what are we trying to what kind of architecture are we trying to do? What kind of clients are we trying to capture? What is our distinguishing proposition that makes people wanna work with us instead of somebody else? There's that aspect to it. And then there's how we kind of run the organization and those things are related. The idea about value creation is something really important to us. So on the client side, we work with clients, that have a real estate need. These are public private clients.

C I mean, they're they're both kinds. They have different end results necessarily, but all of them are spending money a defined amount of money kinda at risk to achieve an outcome, whether that's a public client or a private client. It's a it's a different game. But it's the same result. Like how can you maximize your investment and create levels of value that, you know, maybe even exceed what you thought you could get into? So on the on the private side of that, we think a lot about how we're using design to mediate, you know, the needs of the project, which for a developer, that would be the proforma in that same project in the city where it's being built. Like, how does it affect the people who are using it? What is the political sort of backdrop of how we can get it approved? How do we add value? In that way, these are all these are all fundamental parts. And so our our way of presenting, our way of thinking, our way of designing is is is intended to achieve, I'm gonna say the business outcome. But again, a public client, a private client has sort of different business end results, though there's a similarity in wanting to get as much as you can with what you're investing.

C And we really measure that. I mean, like, you know, we've got a really fun, you know, kinda series of of kind of case studies about, like, where the design thinking in that actually created tangible levels of value. We can monetize and say, it's not just looks it looks this way or it looks that way, but it actually performed in in this way that's measurable. On the business side, it's the same thing. The group of us that puts us together in the firm, this is this is Lynn. This is Kim. This is me. This is Matt.

C Every quarter, we give a presentation to the staff that describes what the business did that quarter, what the business is set up to do. We're super transparent with the money, where it comes from, how we got it, how we're distributing it. We just had our q 2 presentation a couple of months ago and and went through and and analyzed what 9 quarters of working in the pandemic environment, how that's gone for us as a company. And part of that was showing the staff that we invested you know, invested nearly 3 quarters of $1, 000, 000 over those 9 quarters in systems that can help us be better. That's technology systems. Those are support systems, production standards, and and and technical systems, that kind of stuff. You know, showing them that, you know, the reason why you wanna create value in the business, run it to be a profitable business is so that you can take that money and double back into the organization and, you know, in addition to the, you know, compensation structure we have. And so, you know, we really look at measurables both on the design side with what those outcomes are, but also on the business side and really try hard to, be very transparent and teach the staff how that works.

C Because at the end of the day, there's somebody in the future, or some group of people in the future that are gonna be doing the job that I'm doing and Lyn's doing it right now, and we're we're not around anymore. So we want them to learn.

D Absolutely. And I'll add just in your kind of your question about how do we bring design thinking to the business. I think we're very iterative in how we approach the business, how we we analyze it a lot, absolutely bringing that to our projects. We're as Rob said, constantly analyzing how design can bring the most value and the best return to whatever, you know, the outcome is that we're trying to achieve for that client and, you know, for ourselves too within a design sensibility. But we're I feel like we definitely bring that to all aspects of the business. Definitely take looks back. Try to really be self reflective. Look at things from different angles.

D Both I mean, all of us on the leadership team, we do a lot of research. We're constantly reading, not just within our industry, but I would say kind of across business. And looking for those best ideas and pushing what we're doing. I'm always, you know, questioning how I'm approaching certain things. And just because something was good 2 years ago, doesn't mean it's good now. You know, for good or for bad, sometimes you just have to switch things up so people have a fresh perspective. They're approaching it with a good mindset even if the way you were doing it before was great. You know? So I think we're always open to that, which is actually, I'm really proud of.

D I think it's a great sensibility to have to not be stuck in our ways, not think there's only 1 way to do things, and just always be curious and open to new information out there in the world.

B It's such an incredibly refreshing way and perspective to hear, especially from firm leadership. I think Janine and I are in all of these forums where people are really struggling with getting back to the way it was. So the fact that you continuously question things even if it's working, I think is a lesson that a lot of firms I would hope a lot more firms would embrace and and begin to move forward. Lynn, let's dive a little bit deeper into your role, in business development. So are there any different approaches that you use to accelerate the business and and move it forward? And maybe this is both for Janine as I like to ask multiple part questions. Maybe, Rob, this is for you too, but, ultimately, how how big do you I feel like a lot of Affirm owners know how big they wanna get. So so how big does Freck wanna get? So why don't we start with the business acceleration piece?

D Sure. Well, I think we don't have any set number. Pre pandemic, when we put in a new org chart that Rob authored and put a lot of thought and research into also. I think we were pushing towards 50. And I do think we want to get to 50 and see how that feels. Does how does that fit? Do we like where it's at? Does it feel sustainable? There are some things that need to change within our company to achieve that. You know, very bottom line. Rob is our main reign maker.

D To achieve 50 employees and the revenue to support that, he cannot be our only reign maker. You know? And we're actively trying to change that situation. You know, kind of I always equate it a lot to parenting where you'll read, you know, something in a book about how to get your kid to do something, but they never mentioned that it's gonna take 500 times before it takes, not just 5 times. And it's kind of the same, you know, within building biz business development skills even though maybe that's not my particular niche in the company. I do help participate in that quite a bit. Still just in I try to get out there and connect with people and network and very much encourage the people within our company, support them around that. If there's opportunities, making sure they feel comfortable, someone's there kind of in the audience for them, those sort of things. We're really trying to activate those skills within others.

D Rob's very talented. This is, like, within this. So there's also probably some level of intimidation where it feels like it comes natural to Rob, but it's like these are all skill sets that are built upon. Right? And it takes time, a lot of time. And that's why we're always encouraging people just, like, get started because it's gonna take time to do this. It doesn't happen overnight, and especially the way we do it. These are long term close relationships we have with our clients to gain trust, become real friends, which is what a lot of times we are trying to achieve. Is it's just not gonna happen overnight.

D You gotta put in the time and yet, honestly, there has to be a true level of sincerity around it. And we take that seriously. Right? I mean, Rob is not just, you know, trying to get a deal out of these people. Like, he feels connected and they're his real friends. You know? That's what we're those are the sort of clients we want even on the public side and, you know, it's not just on the private side. So to get to 50, we need some, you know, difference on revenue generation. I think that we have what we're always doing is and what I feel strongly is what we are doing now, the processes we have in place allow that to happen relatively easily in an interesting way. We knew we wanted to create strong foundational structures so we could grow even though we're not at that scale at the moment.

D And I do believe that what we're putting in place and constantly evolving are creating those structures so we can become 50. It's more of, like, when we get there, do we like where it takes us? And previous to working at Brick, I actually, worked in other professional services companies and for then I was a consultant for small businesses. And that was something we asked, clients a lot is, are you sure that's what you really want when you get there? Because it it is a different feeling, a different situation, when you get bigger. As things get some things get easier, but other things get harder. And it is just a lot of responsibility and it has to be spread and you need to have a population within your company who's ready to take that on. And but I do feel we're actively working to make that happen, switching a little bit more from, you know, like, that smaller 10 person, Rob and Matt walked around, kinda touched everybody to a more cult truly collaborative space is building that situation so it can happen. Because I have seen it in other companies and that collaboration can really get you there. You need everyone to fill ownership around the success of the company.

D And I do feel we're actively trying to make that happen. And I'll go back to I do like, I wanna agree with Rob that the whole mission values, kinda kickoff and creation did set a course for us getting very deep on building our culture and making sure we are attracting people who really were aligned closely with our culture. And that's been a big change. I do feel like for the most part, everyone's rowing in the same direction. And that's something we really felt strongly about. And it feels like we're there for the most part, which is great.

C I think the magic number about 50, just to give you a little kind of a viewpoint on that, is is that if if you look at what the AIA sort of says about itself in practice, report every 2 years, you know, a small number of firms, around 6% of the firms in this country are 50 people and more. They compete for between 50 60% of the overall economic pie and the talent in the industry. Right? So there's a very strongly vertically integrated, like, tilted arc towards being able to get the best and brightest people and get the best and brightest projects, and it favors larger firms. And and and statistically, that that tipping point is 50 people. Right? So if you can get into that level, you have a what's the right word? You have a bigger sea of people and revenue and fewer firms to compete against, I guess, is what I'm saying. Now the the other spectrum of that is nearly 3 quarters of the firms in this country are 9 people and less, and they've had a dwindling share of staff and the economic pie over the years. You know, it was around 17%. 6 to 8 years ago, that number in the last firm reports down to 13%.

C Right? So it's becoming more and more and more favored, to be in a larger setting. And so we're that firm that is sort of in the middle, right? Like by size of the 34 people we employ probably around the 85th to 88th percentile in terms of size, but we're competing in a much narrower window of talent and potential project acquisition. And so but our overhead proposition, honestly, with the benefits that we provide to our our company, which I I feel like for our size and revenue stream are best in class. You know, there's a cost of doing business that makes it seem a lot more like a large firm. So there's an idea that you'd hire a firm like ours and you'd be getting a really good deal compared to a behemoth. And actually it's not really that true. Our fees aren't really that much different out out of necessity. But when it comes right down to it, there are many clients that control those bigger projects that are always gonna want to check the box of risk for a large firm.

C And so that's where the 50 comes from is is that if we can scale ourselves to that point, then we can move into sort of a different competitive class, which helps expand our range of possibilities, both with, you know, revenue client acquisition and also talent acquisition, which is the lifeblood of our firm. And so I think that's the the the single biggest reason for growth is to get there. And that's the space I believe that the name that we chose for our company can begin to become more of a self fulfilling prophecy, right? More, more hands making light work, if, if if I can say that. And and in part of that, and this is the moment that we're in as a company is, you know, part of that 3 quarters of a $1, 000, 000 of investment back into the firm that I mentioned before is all about making everybody better, giving better tools to work with, better systems to work with, to help make the work as, predictable and as streamlined as possible on the back end so that the stuff on the front end, which is a little harder to find and harder to do and harder to navigate, people can start to get comfortable and have more time and, you know, kind of emotional bandwidth to participate in so that we can kind of also train up the next group of of leaders and rainmakers in in the organization too, because that I I agree with Lyn that, you know, it's really, really hard to have a, you know, a narrower approach to business development that can feed the amount of revenue into an organization of 50 people. You really do need more decentralization there. So that's what we're trying to teach. It's part of how we get into our our structural organization at the company to be able to understand what the, I'm gonna say, steps, but it's more like the experience steps that you need to acquire in order to be able to, you know, really advance your career and then advance the organization through the advancement of your career, that we're trying to teach too. That just takes some time.

C And, you know, like I said, I was 1 person in a dining room table in 2010 and, you know, know, now we've got a bunch of people doing a bunch of awesome stuff. And I think that's sort of the fun part is being reflective to what's working and not working and being willing to adjust when it's not and being willing to try to look outside what you're being comfortable in now to see where the the next thing is is headed so that you can kinda stay ahead of that curve. You know what I mean? You get too settled, you become a potted plant, and that's not good for for evolution or growth.

A So I'm glad you mentioned your people because that that's really how I got to meet you all. I met you because of Abigail and then also because you all really were taking it seriously about this idea on culture that you wanted to figure out systems to put in place to improve how you support your talent. And especially during the pandemic, I think that was a really key success for you all in terms of helping to ensure your your strongest team members felt supported and, like, the new people coming on also had a pathway into the firm. So I wanna talk about iteration. Lynn, you used the word iteration, but you guys are so willing Well, I think, really

D Well, I think really we've iterated on just like looking at ourselves and really analyzing that. You know, a couple years ago, which got us connected with you, Janine, guess maybe it's only a year and a half we did. You know, Rob really pushed to do a survey of our employees just to see where everyone was at and how they were feeling a solid year into COVID. And definitely, almost everyone's still working from home. I think I was even working from home still at that time. You know? And I Rob and I are and Matt are pretty we're pretty quick to come back into the office. So we did take, like, a pulse survey. We really wanted to see where we were at on different things and just that willingness to lean in, see where people are at, but then we created a whole program around it.

D Right? How are we actually going to take this data, analyze it, and use it to propel us forward, which I think also quite a few firms don't do well. We were very committed, which is hard though to make sure we followed through. This I think, you know, and we're not perfect. We also do this where sometimes you may take those surveys but you don't follow through on, like, what you say you're gonna do or what's gonna happen. But I on this 1, I feel we really did took, you know, took a minute, but 1 of the big things was, like, creating our mentorship program, which Janine has been very much a huge facilitator of, and has had so many payoffs, honestly. I think once people got comfortable, we're now maybe about 60% in, would you say, Janine? 75% in to the 1st year. And now I can actually see people are really comfortable. It's, people are understanding.

D It's really just points of connection. Once again, I think we at leadership are understanding. That's really what it is. Points of connection is also made us more willing to lean into other points of connection. Taking, doing a lot of all hands things. Understanding that it's not all about getting to an end goal. This is really hard too. Right? Just taking the time, like I said before, and just listening.

D Over the last few months, we decided we were ready as a firm to actually create our DEI statement, which is not something we had before. We did not have some sort of overwriting mission statement around DEI. We had 3 meetings which were a lot of just listening, talking. I did try to maybe throw in a bit, not too much agenda sizing, but just a little, like, topics to, like, formulate ideas around. But in general, people just ran with it and really felt comfortable talking. And I have to say the the last couple maybe we didn't quote, unquote get anywhere. I mean, I am someone who likes to get somewhere, but, that's maybe a fault to me. I'm not sure.

D But just the discussion was engaging, lively. It made me very proud, and I did make a comment within 1 of those workshops that we could have conversations like this at a workplace. It's not just like, you know, with a group of friends, like, sitting around in fires. Like, we you know, people were saying really interesting, deeply thought things and it's really fun and exciting to work at a place where people feel they can show themselves. I don't want to get into the whole, like, show my true self, but you can really show people have a lot of artistic and intellectual depth at brick and it's fun to see it come out. Something I value a lot in the people I hopefully are in my life is I like people who are deep thinkers and care about the connections of what we're doing every day into our greater communities. So when we do these things and that's kind of where it comes out, it does like that iteration, letting people be getting more comfortable, always just pushing ourselves to be more comfortable. We've done a lot of strategy stuff at a leadership level over the last 18 months, would you say, Rob? Mhmm.

D That has also, I think, pushed us to grow a lot in how we are leaders, like I said. And, you know, we're not spring chickens by any means. So it's like all of us continuing to grow and seeing that we can be better people, better coworkers, better leaders. I think that's pretty fun and exciting too.

C I'll answer, Janine, your your question in in 2 ways on the because I I think about the the firm both in sort of how we develop the projects and then creatively where directionality is headed and and also, you know, deeply committed to how that affects the business and and vice versa. So on the work part, this is an all hands on deck office. Like, when we kick off a new project, it's it's a it's a bunch of people around a whiteboard, you know, of of recent years that a lot of that whiteboard's on Zoom. In past years, it's been an actual whiteboard. It's this whiteboard behind me, actually. You know, not not all ideas that come out of that session are minor maths. You know? We've got a really talented young woman, Nadine, that started with us just after she finished college, at Cal, you know, less what, 2 years ago? You know, part of that whiteboard session, she threw out a great idea for the 65, 000 for laboratory building or designing at Menlo Park. And she had this really cool idea about how the the floor plates could rotate and deal with some directionalities on the way we think about the site and site access and entry and how that kinda created an architectural proposition out of it.

C And, like, that was clearly the best thing on the board. You know what I mean? And, you know, like that's what we're that's what we're moving forward. And so I think that architecture is a profoundly creative, collaborative act among many people. And I I do not I do not believe in the singular voice or singular vision. Really, you do get the best when you have you the ability to check your egos at the door. I'll get around a board and just really find what is the best solution. And then you'll find yourself in, an entire ecosystem of of consultants and contractors and subcontractors and clients. And the next thing you know, you got 30, 40 people around a call.

C You got to learn how to be able to channel that vibe. And so this firm foundationally creatively is about iterating and get to the right step. That's part of how we work on every project, large and small. So that's a point of pride for me because that's very different than many firms that I came from where I was much more kind of contained in a box And there was a few people who had sway over design and that was just sort of the way it worked. May it work for that organization, but I don't believe you're getting the best, experience out of that. On the business side, I'll say that I worked for, a guy by the name of, Gordon Carrier, Carrier Johnson, firm based in San Diego. Early on in my career, Gordon is an incredibly successful individual, both as an architect and in business and always coached me, mentored me around how to use that sort of business acumen to advance your mission as a practitioner. And not just at the bottom line of like, you know, how much do you charge for fees or who do you after the work, but just how you manage the work.

C Where do you think about where work comes from, what best suits the way you want to work creatively, but also does it make an impact in cities? Is it, is it the right thing to do to create value? And just that sensibility of somebody that's in practice and business always made a real impression on me and how I view what could be possible as a practitioner. And so I take that as a pay forward moment for me because I felt like I really learned a lot from from him, from his, late business partner, Michael, as well about how to think about the practice in a way that can really create lives and create an experience in a firm that's, you know, based on good business results. And so I just pay that forward and try to show and teach that. That's why we do these quarterly reports. I'm not afraid to say where the money comes from, how we got there. I I'm not afraid of saying this is a down quarter this year. This is what we need to do to think about an up quarter next year. This is how we need to position moving ourselves forward.

C You know, we really treat the business piece seriously. And in the same way that, you know, I was mentored about the business and about the practice, I just make it my goal and my mission in the company to be transparent about that to everybody because among the group that's out there right now are the future owners and leaders of the company. And I want them to be equipped with, you know, a full spectrum of, of how to make the calculated bets and take the calculated risk. Look at the, look at the data, understand where you can best, you know, focus your efforts and that will multiply your possibilities of success. And thinking about that in the design of the business, I think is something that I'm really mindful to try to participate in and teach. And I'd say that if in answering your question directly, those are probably my 2 biggest points of pride about how we have evolved as a company.

D I wanna add a little bit, Evelyn. Like, you kinda made the comment that you're when you're talking to other firms, it feels like they wanna go back to the old ways a little bit. And I do wanna make a bit of a comment about that in iteration is within our data analysis of COVID. We've also had to think about what were the good you know, not the old days doesn't mean the bad days. So we just have to think about what were those things that were actually quite valuable and bring them as how can we bring them forward in this, you know, new environment. But we all you know, as Bob's saying, design is collaborative. We've realized, like, trying to design over Zoom is very difficult. So how can we there is some, like, kind of getting back to a studio I did, getting to this idea of, like you said, how are we bringing design thinking to the business.

D Rob talks a lot about it, and I think a lot of people within the firm talk a lot about it. It's like that studio feel, that feel of when you were in your, let's say mostly master's degree programs, but we have some people not everyone has a master's degree. But, you know, when you're really in studio, you're collaborating that, you know, equity of voice and ideas that Rob was speaking to kind of that is what we're trying to create here. But it is we're realizing maybe most successful in an in person environment. So it's it's, you know, kind of that iteration ever evolving. How is this gonna work? What are we seeing that wasn't working? And, you know, kind of having some confidence about making hard decisions and maybe unpopular decisions also. Now that's a part of iterating and being self reflect if you can't always do the thing that makes, you know, people think it's gonna be the thing they want the most. I don't know.

D We you have to kinda go deeper and really analyze it.

A Obviously, I'm really proud of you guys. I've always enjoyed our conversations because I feel like you guys are so open to change. And and not saying yes or no to any 1 idea, but just kinda exploring all the possibilities. So to our listeners, I wanted to point you to 2 resources. I think Brick is 1 to watch. I think they're gonna continue to grow, and so I think you guys should keep an eye on them. But 2 past conversations, if you wanna learn more about their company, include a prior episode we did, episode 69, a case study on leadership expanding established design practice to new locations featuring Abigail, who's launching their Boston location. And then back in spring, Lynn and I teamed up on a webinar with section cut through monograph brick redesigning the studio through communication, which is on YouTube.

A So we'll drop both of those links in the show notes, but I highly encourage you guys to check those out and also check back on what they're doing in the next year and future. Evelyn, I'm gonna hand it to you for the closing question.

B It's been really exciting for me to listen to your story. This is the first time that I have actually had an opportunity to really get introduced to your culture and how you operate. And I think so much of what we tell firm leaders is to really listen to their employees. And for me, you know, even in the engagement process with the DEI statement, even though it might take longer to throw together than just putting together a steering committee and saying this is it, I think you've really created this groundswell where you are bringing together community from a ground up basis. And then, Rob, the example you gave of, like, somebody you literally just brought into the firm and they have an idea and they're running with it is so counterintuitive to the profession. And people usually think that, you know, you need to earn your way to have a voice, especially being new to the firm. So the fact that she felt empowered to throw that idea out there, I think, is saying something about the people that you're attracting at Brick and how you're developing that culture. So we've talked a little bit about your reason for wanting to grow the firm from from a people standpoint.

B But as you look at, you know, where you're facing the most challenges and what you see coming up ahead, where do you wanna take the firm? Where does what does the future of BRIC look like beyond kind of what we've talked about today?

D I think we absolutely would love to see the firm grow to 50 ish people, you know, that are very much, like, kind of well aligned, committed to the communities we work in, feel that we're excelling on design and what our clients, like, return on, you know, ROI is. I think we would love to be in we are in Oakland and Boston, grow on that, maybe add another location, definitely decentralized, like, revenue growth, see leaders kind of rise to the top and take over positions within the company that we hope will kind of allow the next generation to grow. That's where I think we see it going. Right? Just all good things, more solidified, just ever expanding. You know, 1 thing is maybe we haven't talked about too much, but, you know, I think we really are trying to get away from a lot of hierarchy within the organization. Of course, we have it and but we are moving even away our org chart and how we're trying to visualize it is not so, you know, linear kind of where you've created something that we haven't true you know, a 100% brought to fruition, but it's a more of a circular style org chart. Because we really want I think we're taking cues from the tech world and software engineering, right, where you're kind of that studio design sensibility, a little bit more individual breakdowns of the larger groups that allows, like I said, a lot of equity across the group voices to be heard, but still allows kind of at a greater organizational level for great ideas to bubble to the top, but still creates pathways for people to grow.

C What does the future hold for Brick? Brick is gonna grow, but I'm open and even somewhat certain that it might not just be purely organic. I do feel like there is a high chance and opportunity for an external acquisition to build the the firm, 1 that matches the culture, provides avenues for a marketplace or marketplaces that we're not currently at, mostly just because of the constraint on talent. Very, very difficult to very difficult to compete in the landscape of talent acquisition. The great recession still has effects on how much available labor there just is in the profession, and and and those and those young architects that graduated, unfortunately, at that time who had to go on to do other things are are those same mid career practitioners that are the kinds of people that you could groom to be rainmakers and teach them how to run projects at a high level, and they just you know, their numbers are small. You know? So it's just really, really hard to find those folks. And so an acquisition, I think, in in some respects is on my mind because that probably is, if you can find the right cultural fit, a way to kinda bolt on and grow the organization and decentralize it in a way that will help deal with the realities of talent acquisition because it it is pretty challenging in that environment. The other thing too I would say is is that we're firmly committed to cities. I mean, as much as people don't wanna come to work anymore and cities, particularly here in the Bay Area, are suffering.

C I still believe that it's worth being here and it's worth investing our time and energy in doing projects that are infill in nature that make the cities that we work in better places. And that ecosystem, that makes cities work, which is, you know, live, work, and play centered around transit are still the things that I think are winning strategies over the long haul. So we will still be firmly there. Our firm will still be nimble in general. I do not desire to be in a highly specialized, you know, kind of construct. I I like the idea that we are working across, you know, multiple markets and with multiple ideas. Keeping it fresh is a good idea for the long haul too, and that's a great way to to to do that. I do think we will continue to look at opportunities to expand our physical geographies of where we practice as well because the things that we learned and sharpened our swords at here in the Bay Area are things that matter in other markets too.

C I think we're, you know, seeing that Abigail is starting to do great work and get a foothold in in Boston, which has so many similarities with our markets here in the Bay Area that it's, you know, great to see. There are others out there that I think about that could also provide that recipe. And at the end, it's, again, it's about, you know, evolving that idea of getting this notion of all these bricks working together in 1 unison, right? You know, the whole and the sum of the parts analogy there, I think is is really symbolized in in geographic expansion as well. And and then all of those things create a much more dependable and sort of, let's call it, flat line experience in a highly peak and valley, you know, type of profession, particularly when you're siloed in 1 geography only. It just starts to become a much more repeatable and self sustaining business enterprise too. So that's what I would see for the future for us, how long that takes us to get there. You know, we'll figure out. I I don't know where the economy's at at the minute, but hopefully that's, you know, this be a short blip and maybe a longer blip potentially, but we'll, we'll be able to sort of move through that and move towards that future.

C I think so. And, and Janine, thank you so much for the kind words and Evelyn, same. Thank you so much for kind words about the organization. That makes me, that makes me very happy to hear, and I appreciate you saying it.

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