Madame Architect: Work, Family, and Everything In Between

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B Today, as promised, we are bringing back Amy Stone who interviewed us at the close of last season to flip the table and interview her. Learn more about her story as a woman architect and why she proceeded in MBA, and where Madame Architects is, where she is a senior editor, And talk about the future of practice in general. No.

A I was telling Amy when she jumped on the call, I wanted to do air horns because I'm so excited for today's conversation because there's just a million questions I wanna ask her. She's just a very interesting person, and we have so much in common. So since we got a lot to cover, let's jump into it. Amy, welcome back to the show. We're so glad to have

B you. Welcome.

C Evelyn and Janine, hello. Hello. It's great to see you again. And I got to see you in person at AIA. So how fun was that?

A That was neat.

B It was a very brief moment. We should next time, let's try to make more time for 1 another. But

A yes. I was like, so happy to see you. And we gave, like, big, brief hugs up in front of the stage, and then we were all off to our next event.

C And I saw Evelyn. I saw you at the women's event on an afternoon, but it was also, like, just in passing. So so ironic that, like, we gather from all over the country to this 1 spot and we still only get, like, snippets and seconds with each other, but it was nice to meet you both in person, and I'm super excited to be back and to, I don't know, answer questions about why you think I'm an interesting person and hopefully reveal all the secrets.

A Well, you did such a good job with our interview last season, and so we wanna return the favor. And we're gonna kick this discussion off by just asking you to help orient our listeners. Tell us about who you are, a brief introduction, and, you know, you have a full time job, extracurriculars. Tell us what your life's like.

C Yeah. Okay. So a little bit about me. I am currently at work at Gensler in Atlanta where I live, and I'm wearing a blue blazer, drinking diet Coke. I'm 61, brunette, just to paint the picture of tall girl architect.

A That is true. You are tall.

C And I have 3 kids, a dog, a bunch of fish thanks to my daughter, some snails and shrimp thanks to my daughter as well, extracurriculars, I have been getting into, like, working out lately and trying to invest more in my health. My weekend kind of relax and unwind is baking and cleaning my house usually, which is 1 of the curses of being an architect and caring way too much about your physical environment when you have too many kids, so I'm just constantly cleaning. At this point, I should just call it a hobby. I'm pursuing my MBA at Scheller, which is really great. It sounds like a lot with, you know, work and kids. Really, for me, it feels like a a night apart a lot of the time so that I can go to get really great instruction and have some variety to my week and it it's work, but I feel like I'm learning a ton from it. So that's kind of brief snapshot of me. And as we've talked about, I'm also involved with Meta Architect and help with interviews and content for that wonderful platform that I've been a part of for the last few years.

B Great. So I I think we're gonna actually, you know, literally turn the tables and ask you some of the same questions that you asked us during our interview and talk about, you know, what made you wanna be an architect in the first place?

C I did not know I wanted to do architecture until I was a freshman in college and literally needed to choose a major because I couldn't stay undecided forever. So it was I just started searching, like, what are the majors available? What's out there? And came across architecture. And for some reason, there was just something about it that clicked in terms of drawing, creativity, really having a well rounded approach to, like, you study everything, you get to study history and science and math, you also get to create. And so there was this aspect to both the study of architecture and the practice that I was like, this is so appealing to me, and it's a profession. So to have, like, a track that I was feeding into was also kind of, like, helping support that practical side to me. I didn't really look under the hood of what the education was like in terms of, like, walking through a studio. Like, I didn't go over to, like, the nearby architecture school. I was really just looking at course list being, like, yeah, I wanna study history of architecture.

C Yeah. I wanna study structures. I mean, there were just all these electives too, like building systems and the business of architecture and all of it is just like, you know, when you're reading something and you get so genuinely excited about it, that really happened with with architecture. And then luckily for me after, like, investing 2 years at the school I was at so I could get all of my core curriculum and then transferring to Georgia Tech where I started really as a freshman again, but kind of stuck in between 2 tracks is, like, you know, because you get on that, like, 1234 sequence with your studios. And then but also having a lot of credits that I was bringing over from my 2 years at Georgia State. It just continued to be exactly what I was looking for. I love studio, love the creative aspect, loved how you learn to see all over again and to create in a completely different way. So it was very mind expanding and, like, talent expanding, which was just a great fit for me.

C So that was the beginning of my, like, interest in architecture and then through internships, kind of added a little bit of professional experience, and it just I feel very lucky in the fact that, like, it worked. Like the the choice clicked. The path was great for me and has continued to serve me and I haven't really pivoted from it. I've really kind of stayed true and to an extent of like the traditional architecture path of like working in larger firms for most of my career and really flexing architecture in that path,

B and I've I've loved it. So, you know, at some point in my undergrad, I learned about all the things we have to do after school to actually become a licensed architect. So someone who kind of chose that path more so because you were just literally looking at the the curriculum. Is there a point where you're like, oh, there's all this other there's this IDP stuff and and these tests and, you know, that that ever wonder like, made you wonder, like like, what have I truly signed up for? Or,

C Oh my gosh. I'm smiling as you say all of this because it's true. It's like, oh, cool. I wanna study buildings. And then there's this disillusionment period where you're like, excuse me, what do I have to do to become an architect? Are you kidding me? And ex what? I am learning more about myself as I get older. And looking back, I see this. But when I see a structured program that says you need to do x, y, and z in order to accomplish ABCI internalize that and it motivates me. And I see it kind of like, yeah, if that's it, like, watch me rise to this challenge.

C I'm gonna do it. Yeah, I'm gonna take the tests. Yeah, I'm gonna study for it. Yeah, I'm gonna get my internship hours and it's almost also at least as a neophyte, you know, undergraduate trying to choose a path in life, it offered almost like an extended path after college. So like, what do you do after you have a 4 year degree? Like, oh, I don't know. You go and get a job somewhere. But, like, to know this is still what you're working towards for me and the way that I approach, like, needing that structure, it really worked for me and so it helped me kind of find, like, here's how I can excel. The really difficult part that I've had to work around is I graduated with a 4 year non professional degree from Georgia Tech, great program, and I went back for my masters, but I knew before I even graduated that I would have to go back for a masters in order to have that legitimacy of being licensed, at least in the state of Georgia where you have that NCARB, like, master's requirement.

C And so that was the 1 part of the puzzle, Evelyn, that I was just like, I know that this is gonna take a lot to get to the finish line. It's not just a 4 year degree and you're off. It's like 4 plus all the internship and tests plus when the heck am I gonna get my master's? And so I I had structured, like, I remember it when I was was 18 and I found out, like, this is the full path for an architect. I have, like, literally made a 10 year plan. And I was, like, alright, I'm 18. By the time I'm 28, I will have my bachelor's. I'll have my master's. I'm gonna be done, done, done.

C And then they're like, there we go. And that, like, of course, like, I could have just burned that paper as soon as I wrote it because none of that happened in the order that I thought it was going to. Like, for when I got married when I was, like, 23, and then I had a kid when I was 25, and then a second kid when I was 27. And I didn't go back in for my master's until I was 30 plus. I can't remember what year, 32, 33. Time is melting away on this long path to get to where I want to go. But but, again, even as things have shifted and changed, having that long view of what it takes to get to where I wanna be has, for me, been really helpful.

A That's really relatable. I think so many of us have sat down and made that list and been like this is the path and then you go into life and life says yeah. No. Things are gonna be a little different than you think that path is gonna be. But I think, I think it's really insightful and helpful for other people to hear from other architects that, yeah, you don't always go down that path in a really linear way that makes sense. Sometimes it surprises you. I wanted to ask where you see yourself currently in your career like when you think about where you are versus where you started this story, where are you now?

C I feel like I am at the beginning of the flyover states of my career. And I say flyover states because, you know, it's had a very structured Path up till now. It's been school and internship and exams and school And now like I'm licensed So at a certain point you get to that top rung of the proverbial ladder of becoming a licensed architect And then you're like, now what? Where do I go? Where's my next rung? And you're really grasping at nothing. I went to a conference 1 time where somebody was kind of talking about, like, your middle career, and it's this really long middle. You know, you as you're coming into the field, you think, oh, I wanna get licensed. That's a big goal. And it is. And then you think the next big goal is like retirement.

C It's like, well, what's happening in the middle? Like, that's the flyover states like and that's all career progress. That's family growth. That's personal development. And it's really hard to make a structured path out of that. That is as easy to, like, tick the boxes on as that first part of your career. And so I right now, I feel like I'm still, 1, extending that structure a little bit by doing my MBA and having, like, a few more checklists. Right? And when, like, we can, yeah, talk about MBA, but I feel like that's kind of helping me just bridge the gap. But also I feel like it's opening a lot of doors.

C I'm not quite sure which I will follow and take, but I know that there will be decades of professional growth and, like, family life and personal life ahead that, I don't have a 10 year plan for or a 20 year plan for. I have a lot of intrinsic goals and an internal motivation to kind of, like, try to become the person I wanna become and to work on, you know, areas and projects and missions that I really feel passionate about, but definitely not a 10 year path with all of the boxes.

B What is that mind shift been for you? Because because I was very similarly, you know, it was easy to shoot for that licensure path, but then to get it and to now be in the floating space and and maybe very indirectly, I think that is why I also pursued like, I also jumped back into education. But how are you how are you finding you're motivating yourself in new ways now that you don't have the tenure look ahead?

C I am realizing along the way, there have just been interests and, well, 1 interest and other, like, 2 things that have not gone really well that I'm like, that can get better. Like, we can improve that and finding really the things that I feel like are worth my time in fixing or kind of missions that I relate to, I guess, in another way is another way of saying that. And so trying to just identify, like, what I care about and to, like, what the heck to do about it. Right? Like, for instance, part of the reason I'm getting an MBA is just seeing, like, what works and what doesn't work in the field of architecture and, like, in the businesses that I've worked in and the projects that I've been a part of. Like, what's gone really well and why, and what hasn't gone really well and why? Why did that affect my quality of life so much? Why did I come home with so much stress about things? Why did that play out, like, stress for my whole family? And, like, why does it need to be like that? And how can we change quality of life? And how can we create better business models so that like people have better projects better quality of life better impact on with the buildings that they're making, and getting really curious about, I guess, just the underlying structure of how our career works and runs on a day to day basis. And for me, that's those interests turn into, again, just like a lot of different paths where I can end up studying and taking that. And I really got on to myself, I guess, as my masters, like going back for my masters of architecture, I was like, I'm gonna have my career path figured out by the time I'm done. Right? Like these self imposed, like, deadlines, like, when I graduate, I know exactly what I'm gonna do.

C I'm gonna start my own firm and blah, blah, blah, or I'm gonna have this super linear path within whatever firm I join and just go. And I've just had to realize, like, it's slower than that. It's less straightforward than that, and I will forever be in this process of identifying, like, what I care about and how I wanna act on it that's really gonna form the rest of my career path, I think.

A Oh my gosh. Me too. Like, I so went through that same process where I was, like, I'm gonna be a firm owner. I'm gonna be on a leadership track. And then, like, when I got into firms and I realized, okay, this isn't quite gonna shake out like this. I was really disappointed and felt frustrated, and it led me down this entirely different career path also towards an MBA asking very similar questions that you raised. So we wanna know what was that moment where you said, yes. I'm all in on the MBA, and I'm gonna do this.

C My moment of actually being all in on the MBA is when it was offered at my school, and it was the fastest, cheapest, most accessible way that I could get an MBA. Otherwise, I would not have pursued it because it would have been too much time, money and effort. But while I was in the middle of getting my M mark at Georgia Tech, I I had heard, you know, about the MBA with College of Engineering and the College of Computing, and I think they were just trying to slowly work down the list of offering dual degrees with all of the colleges on the campus or as many as they could. They finally got to, like, college of design at Georgia Tech and said we're offering an MBA in MArch. And you can count 13 of your masters of architecture credits towards your MBA. You can either tack on a full time year after you're done with your program or you can get accepted before you graduate and you can go through an evening MBA. Either way, you're graduating with your M Mark MBA. And had they not offered it, I would not have pursued it because

B it's just

C too much. It's expensive. It's time intensive. It's extra work. It's hard. I will say, like, low key, not as hard as architecture school, but challenging in different ways for sure. And that for me, honestly, it was just the accessibility of it. That was a turning point for me.

C It had been brewing. I had been thinking about it, but, and that's just, I think so many people are gonna feel like that. And I've run across so many talented, capable people who said, oh, I would have gotten an MBA if I could have, but it's just it's too much in so many ways. So that was kind of, like, the logistical part of it, Evelyn. And I think the the more intrinsic part of it was just, like we had talked about saying, like, I've been on projects. I've seen what's successful. I've seen what's not successful. I wanna know how this works.

C And I keep drawing this analogy at least mentally about when you're studying architecture, you have to study like a whole suite of systems and different areas of expertise that come together to make architecture what it is and to form space that is both poetic and functional and protects your life safety and serves all of the purposes that it needs to serve for the occupants of the building and for the community. And it's I've just thought about it as this, you know, culmination of a lot of different systems that are masterfully composed right to create architecture. And I've been thinking about that a lot with the business side of anything, but especially design. You have to study so many different parts and components. You have to study the marketing and the finance and the legal and the ethics. You've got to study the data analytics, and you've got to study the information management systems and the strategy piece and the accounting, all of that. You're not leaving there, like, any of those classes being an expert. You're leaving it just like you do in architecture.

C You are getting, like, skin deep, just enough to say, like, I know what's going on. And then that business side of it is this very analogous to architectures. Like, you're bringing together all of these systems to interact in a way that forms a really successful business that accomplishes your missions and your values and goals and it also impacts the lives of those who you work with and has like a positive impact on the world around you. And so to me I I see them both in very similar lights of being able to have a very broad tool kit and skill set that you are using in a variety of ways kind of to the same end. Once for buildings, once for people.

A So with the MBA and the business education, what have you learned that you've started applying to your projects that has shifted the way that you're approaching, actually being a project architect?

C Man, my brain wants to go like madam architect and turn this question around on y'all before I even answer it and be like, how is it MBA had infected you with consulting and in your job, Evelyn, and with this podcast? For my role, I have seen it, 1 just give me more insights into what's going on and to understand, like I said, like, what's under the hood, why things connect the way they do, and why things are set up the way they are. Gensler has obviously a very strong business component to it, which is how it's grown so large over the last several years. And it's something that I've been interested to, like, learn more about as I'm coming here. And so I I've been at Gensler for almost a year and I think art Gensler spoke up a lot about like being interested in business taking some quick classes at a nearby college, and then bringing that professor back to the entire office to teach everyone about business principles because it applies to everyone. Right? Like, everyone needs to be doing business development. Everyone should have, like, a handle on marketing and, like, how we do it, why we do it. We need to understand, at least in my role, I'm a project manager, so I'm constantly looking at, like, staffing and productivity and schedules and deliverables, which isn't so far off from, like, the typical life of any other DM or a design manager or project manager. But I feel like there's just an aspect to what I'm studying with my MBA that just makes me wanna understand, like, the underlying reasons foundationally why things are set up the way they are and just helps me dig deeper with better questions.

C It's not necessarily that I'm like, have, you know, access to all of the the vault of business knowledge in Gensler just because I'm getting my MBA, but I do it helps, like, 1, have a different level of curiosity about what's going on and why. 2, that I just have a different like, I'm developing a different way of analytical thinking about things. And and I remember talking to another principal who was also kind of, like, stealth MBA at my last firm. Like, I learned about, you know, how he had his MBA on on top of his interior design and architecture experience and education. And he just said, it just helps me think differently. It helps helps me process things differently. And I think it's a really powerful tool that I has added to my architectural education. And then another person here at Gensler has just said, like, it's kept doors open for me.

C Right? Like, it's not necessarily and he has, you know, eventually kind of chosen a track and gone down that route. But more than anything, it's like it's helped me just have doors open and opportunities to be able to do what I want to do rather than feeling like I'm just siloed to a designer track and that's it. Feeling like I have the ability to ask more questions, learn more, and pursue more. So that that's applicable just to kinda keep I don't know. For me, if I keep my horizons open a little bit and not just be like, oh, I'm only ever gonna be a design manager or project manager. Like, what's next? Like, what is it gonna be like to, have a studio? Or what's it gonna be like to help in an office setting or at a regional level? Or if I ever do go on my own, like, what's it gonna be like on my own? So it helps me think differently and think more broadly.

B So you mentioned at the top of the conversation that you had this path, and obviously, life happens in between. So when it comes, like so and and it usually comes with hard decisions. But when are what are some of the easier decisions? And we talked about kind of the easy decision to pursue the MBA because of the happenstance Yeah. That it was continuation. Were there any other decisions that came naturally that actually may have taken you off the path for a little bit or or helped you define the path further?

C Yeah. I mean, there's easy ish decisions that, you know, have dealt with education, but also personally, like, I like I said, I threw my 10 year plan, like, out the window because I met my now husband who's a phenomenal person. It was very easy to, like, shift and adjust around other good decisions. Right? Like, yeah, there's a linear track, but I can come back to it because this is the right time for me to, like, pursue this relationship. And when we had kids, like, at the time, it felt right to have kids. It's like, yeah, this is naturally something I wanna do. Like, again, I'll rearrange and I'll shuffle and I'll kind of get to what I wanna get to later so that I can make what feels like the good decision now, and I'll work it out later, and we will stay flexible and adaptable. It was also it was easy and hard, I think, just to, like, say, I'm gonna stick with the track.

C It's easy because it's a track and it's a box to check. It's difficult because life does not want you to check a box. It wants you to have every roadblock possible. And so it's easy to just be like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do it. I'll stay on it, but it's it's taken a lot of, heavy lifting to get things lined up to to finish that.

B I appreciate that perspective because I I was literally sitting in it was a woman in architecture social group or some other social group, and 1 woman was trying to decide, like, is now a good time to have a child? And it took me a long time to just come to terms with the fact that I don't know if there is ever a good time to have a child. So if I want to have a child, and I don't know if, you know, if I start now when we'll actually be able to conceive anyways. So it's, so so for me, that was if I had your outlook on things, I think it would have been easier to adjust around things, and that decision wouldn't have been as weighty

C for me. Here's, like, an analogy to that on a, like, a micro skill, Evelyn. It is never easy to, like, go on paid time off for it when you're on a team on a complex project. Like, you schedule that vacation for 2 weeks. It's a big chunk. You know, it's gonna take you away and like by the time it comes up

B Most people don't even take that vacation.

C And by the time it comes up on the calendar, it's the worst freaking time to take it like everything's going wrong and it's never a good time to go on vacation But like you gotta go like you gotta take the time off you've got unplug and you've got to do what's right for you when it's the right thing to do And so, like, blow that up to a macro scale of, like, you know, or, like, just bigger decisions. Like, should I have a career pivot? It's terrible time. Or, like, should I, you know, start my family, or should I, like, pivot to take care of my elderly parents? Like, whatever big shift, it's, like, never a good time, but I think I have been fortunate to be raised in a family and been surrounded by people who put a lot of emphasis on like you do what's right for you when it's right for you and you take care of family first and you put yourself, you know, in the situations you want to be in like long term. If you want to have a family when you're 50, like, then start now. And if it means you're gonna be slower to starting your career, you're slower to starting your career. If it means you're stopping in, like, the middle of your progression track to, like, your super leader position you wanna be in, so be it. Like, you can get back to where you wanna go to. It's not about, like, the track that's valuable and how far along on it.

C Like, you are valuable. You do what you need to do. And and the rest is like negotiable and rearrangeable. So you mentioned

A life throws challenges at you as you try to check the boxes on your goals.

C Yes.

A What is 1 of the hardest decisions that you've made throughout your career?

C It was really tough to go back to school, and I knew and I know this keeps kinda kept going like back and forth between like easy to stick to the track, but like really hard to get it done. I was returning for my master's when I was in my thirties with 2 small kids. We had just come off the heels of my husband going through 3 years of law school with 2 like even smaller children at the time. And so 1, we were just kind of like exhausted. Like I did my bachelor's. He did his bachelor's. He did his law degree and then it was like time for me to go. So at a certain point, it's like freaking burnout.

C We haven't even started. Right? But I gotta get there, like, it's so important for me to not say, like, oh, I'm an asterisk architect where, like, I'm kind of, you know, I'm I'm a designer or I'm I'm, I don't know, there's just so many ways to denote like an almost architect that it bugs me and I was like, I just don't want that I want to be like architect. End.

A Amy Stone architect.

C Amy Stone architect, not Amy Stone architect, asterisk. And you know who would care about that asterisk? Freaking nobody, but I would care about it. So it was personal goals. So anyway, the timing of it was pretty rough in that, you know, we needed my income to stay financially afloat as my husband was like interning, studying for the bar, but also deciding to, like, stop work to or, like, go part time so I could go back to school. And then I mean, even setting up for school was like, I bought 2 pair of car seats for my car, 2 pair of car seats for my husband's car, 2 pair of car seats for my babysitter's car, who would have to, like, pick up my kids from after school because it ended at 5, but my studio went till 6:30. And so I would have to have baby care or, like, childcare on top of after school care to take care of my kids just so I could finish class to, like, be at the same baseline as everybody else. And like, that's just getting out the gate. Right? And so it was just a big there were a lot of hurdles that were unique to, you know, the decision to have kids earlier and to the decision to go back to school later.

C There are some benefits of staying linear because you can go through undergrad and graduate single and without as much like external responsibility like raising a family or, you know, being in a, in a relationship where like, you've got to do a lot of give and take, which is wonderful and supportive, but also like time consuming and difficult. So anyway, hopefully, that kind of paints the picture. It was difficult to go back to school because of on the day to day basis, there was just so much more to manage, and so much more to take care of beyond the immediate demands of work, school. There is this very complex, demanding home life too.

B You know, some people would say that you're doing an awfully an awful lot. So what what type of systems, you know, talking about systems and and planning, and you alluded to childcare too. But, you know, what type of frameworks have you set up in your life to help enable you to do everything that you do?

C I love this question. I think the question of how do you do it all? And we kind of expect like, Oh, it's just my sheer ambition. And I just work really hard. Like, yeah, maybe. And I think everyone is trying to work really hard. Honestly, the systems I have in place are, like, the reasons that I can do what I do. And and, like, I have an an incredibly supportive husband, and we have turned him into a feminist so that he will learn to be, like, more supportive. Like, his upbringing was much more traditional and conservative, and I think, you know, having a wife that's like, hey, I'm gonna work just like my mom worked outside of the home was like, what? You're gonna do what? And it wasn't bad.

C It was just different from his upbringing a little bit. So, like, just that process of learning to support each other, even though it wasn't exactly what our upbringing look like look like for us. That was a big stretch. And even honestly in getting an MBA, I was like, hey. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. Your support during my masters has just been, like, fantastic. Also, I wanna get my MBA.

C So 3 more years of this, maybe 4 years. Not sure. And him being, like, I mean, we already said burnout when we started the masters of architecture. So now now, like, MBA. Are you kidding me? And it was it was like a little bit of, you know, give and take of, look, I'm gonna do this whether you want it or not, to some extent, but also, like, I can't do this unless you are, like, buying into it as well and supporting. And so it's just been a series of a lot of conversations and support for 1 another for our own goals and ambitions, and that honestly is, like, baseline. If I didn't have that, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing. Right on top of that is if I did not have the childcare in place to do what I'm doing, I I wouldn't.

C I have a babysitter who picks my kids up from school. We now have an almost 2 year old. She watches him during the day, picks up my kids from school. And so, like, I can actually do an 8 to 5 day because I have somebody to cover for me and we also like again linked right with that is we have the means for it. And so if you don't have supportive family situations or if you don't have the necessary like childcare or parent parental care or sibling family care, if you don't have like the financial means to do this like door shut and I'm very aware of that. And a part of the reason I'm like, that keeps me plugged into, like, the, I don't know, equity side of things and the, like, conversations that are happening around, like, who's in the room and who's not in the room? Because I am a cisgender white woman in the room, and my husband went to law school, and I have amazing childcare. Like, I I can honestly do what I'm doing because I have a lot of freaking privilege, like, that's number 1. Number 2 is, you know there's a personal mix of do I want to do this? Can I do it? How do I do it? How do I work out the day to day? And so I am always very self conscious of just being too flippant with the how do you do it all answer realizing that like the way that I do it is through a lot of like amazing partnerships and financial means to do so.

C And on top of that is just, like, yeah, like I said, some ambition, but also just opportunity. If I didn't have the program at Georgia Tech, I wouldn't have done So, like, there's always that luck component. And there is drive and motivation, and I take pride in that, and I love it. I love learning. I love doing more. But that just to like say that as my only 1 liner and be like, Oh, I'm ambitious. This is why I'm doing it all. Like it just doesn't paint the full picture for everyone.

C So I think it's important to lay that out.

A I just wanna dive into this comment you made about burnout because I think, you know, we've got 3 really highly ambitious, high achiever, high performers on this call. And the burnout thing is the thing that I think that people don't it's hard. Yes, we it's hard. Yes, we're ambitious. But I think, and correct me if you disagree, hitting the hitting the burnout is actually what helps us. Like, we improve our systems. It pushes us to develop systems that allows us to do what we're trying to do better.

C I think so completely. I I talk about this on occasion, but I stopped in the middle of my master's of architecture for a full year. Like, I got through a year plus a summer studio, and then we bought a house. And then it was diving right back into a fall semester, and I was, like, couple weeks into school just like crying all the time. I'm not like a big crier. But to me that was like, okay, there's a lot, like, there's a lot of stress here and there's a lot of buildup, that I need to work out and I'm not sure what's going on, but I've got to stop. And so I withdrew from the semester and when when you withdraw from 1 semester in architecture school, you withdraw for a year because you can't just pick up in the spring and, you know, it's sequential studios. So I took a year off of just like, trying to figure it out.

C Like, it's hard and it there is burnout and that stopping helped me regroup and helped me take some exams before I graduated. So I started on my licensure track. I also, like, found Madame Architect in that year off and, like, connected that way and kind of just got my feet back under me. And so when I came back, I was even, you know, closer to licensure and plugged into a mission that I really cared about and then, like, had the oomph to continue on until that, you know, that last semester. And I think anytime symptoms of burnout are coming up, that physical exhaustion, that stress, that's just, like, pulsing and, like, tightening your stomach and your throat, like, paying attention to that and pivoting and acting on it is key and clutch, and it's not like, oh, I'm in this role Despite that and I've just pushed through it and whatever like keep climbing like it's because I've listened to myself and like paused and adjusted as needed that like I have the insights that I have, and I have the systems that I have to help me be successful. So I completely agree, Janine. That's completely right.

B So I think and since you brought it up, this is a good opportunity for us to take this conversation to Madam Architect. Tell us specifically about your role at Madame Architect and how it's evolved over time and and how you were first introduced to the platform.

C Quick story on Madame Architect and how I found it. I was a part of women in architecture student group at Georgia Tech when I went back to school. We had been invited as a student group up to a student conference at Harvard called Convergence, and it was just bringing women in architecture student groups from all over the country just to chat and have a conference together and learn about, like, hey, what are y'all doing and how can we help each other? So that was just a cool opportunity to go up to the school. And then while we were there, we did pecha kucha style presentations. Most organizations talked about what's going on. Here's what we're doing. And then they had also invited Julia Gammelina to talk about Madame Architect. So in 5 minutes, she kind of just gave a run through of here's the mission, here's who we've interviewed, here's how we are expanding, you know, the visibility and growing the voice of women in architecture.

C And I thought it was a great presentation. It was awesome, like amazing to hear other women and what they're doing, how they're making it work, what their stories are, their different trajectories in the career and and where things go for them. I was desperate for that. And so that was in November April, I was still thinking about that 5 minute presentation and I was just like, I still just wanna know like I was checking in on interviews and reading what she had been doing. So I just reached out to help and literally was like, hey, I'm interested. How can I how can I be of any service? She said, oh, it's all volunteer work. So, like, just so you know, that's the baseline. Like, it's all over and above what we do.

C And so that's fine. I'd still love to be a part of it. And so I was, I think, the first person that she really brought on to help with, like, transcriptions and just to help with the production work in the background. She would do the interviews, record them, I would transcribe them. She would edit, gather the photos, bios, and and put that on the website. So as I had done that, you know, for 10, 15, 20 interviews, after some time, she was like, oh, why don't you, you know, start doing your own interviews? In that time, it was also just a lot of advising and, like, helping with proofreading and edits and helping to, you know, gather potential interviews or grow certain areas of the website like gen or days with or different column pieces that we have and kind of just weighing in as overall advisor. So that's where I've been. It's everybody on the team is doing it over and above their full time jobs, including Julia, editor and editor in chief.

C And now I am mostly doing somewhere between like 6 to 10 interviews a year and talking to women and still just kind of being that general, helper outer and editor for the team.

A So the thing that stands out to me about Madame Architect is how robust a content is on the website. Like, every time I go check out a new article, you guys are doing such a great job. The quality is substantial. You have a huge catalog of content with different architects. I mean, we've had several guests on the show that I, like, have it started occurring to me that I should go check Madame Architect to see if there's a profile for them, and there is usually. And when that's really exciting because it's like, okay, it just it's so impressive to like, I can read these, articles that you're writing about, some of these past guests on our show, and I completely have a full understanding of who they are and what's important to them and even their evolution as leader. So a compliment and a question to ask about the growth of Madame Architect over the years And and just to walk us through, how has it grown and, you know, what guided a lot of the decisions that led you to where you guys are now?

C 1st, thank you so much, Janine. It's, like, a huge honor that you have found so many good resources and reference the site so often. That's exactly what we were hoping for for the platform. So thank you so much for your generous comments and compliments about the site. We do try to cover women at, like, a more personal level. So rather than just talking about, like, strictly design or strictly project based, It's really talking about them as a whole person and how they develop their interests, what their growth has been, what their challenges and their highlights have been, what advice they have, who they're admiring. And you'll notice a very, like, repetitive theme in the questions, and that's intentional just so that we can almost do, like, a side by side of, like, this was my path. What was your path? What's your path? What's your path? And we'll delve sometimes into, you know, projects that people are proud about or specific work that they're doing that they want to bring to the forefront because it means so much to them, but it really is trying to focus on their background and who they are, what they bring to this profession, and, like, what kind of voice they have to share with the community at large.

C So our goal has been to tell more stories, to go broad, to feature a diverse set of backgrounds, and, you know, we're not necessarily like a PR firm. It's not like we're just out there to maintain everyone's, like, public profiles, that we're really trying to connect readers and people who are interested in learning about other women in the field to people who are doing something different, to leaders, to the emerging professionals, to students, and and just try to make as many connections and little, like, sources of inspiration in whatever way that we can so that people feel encouraged to to stay to learn more to if it's not stay then to, like, to pivot to how to pivot, like, what what career paths are open. And so we have been really interested in telling a variety of stories. Julia, when she presented it at, Convergence, it was like, here's my project of 16 interviews, and I think I'm just going to keep going, and she has kept going, and it's been, 4 years plus and over 300 stories of different women and a lot of very high profile names that people recognize in architecture, which is great. And also a lot of names nobody has heard of, which is even better. Like, here are even more names, like, in people who are doing amazing things. And and answering that question of, like, oh, it's such a male dominated field, and it's all for men in architecture. And it's, like, no, it's not.

C That's not the narrative anymore. There are so many women and there are so many positions. And let's show that. Let's show the variety that's out there and make that a a resource that's open to people so like they can feel connected in feel like they have a mentor abroad or like anywhere so it can be that source of encouragement at least that's my hope like because that's how I that's how I used the site at first was like what else are y'all doing who else is a mom in school Who else is like stopped and, you know, had a huge long pause between their undergrad and their graduate. And what are you doing? How are you hanging in there? So that's what I hope it it is for other people as well.

A What have you learned by participating in that medium as an editor and collaborator?

C I for 1, every time I'm transcribing or interviewing, I feel like every person has insights to share hearted wisdom. They have got something unique about their path. You know, there's a lot of commonalities with like, how did you arrive at your interest in architecture? It's like, oh, I was good at math and science, and I love to draw or like so and so in my family, it was a part of the profession. But really like, what did that question about like, what did you learn about yourself while you were in architecture school? Like, what's been challenging for you in your profession? And to see what's highlighted and to learn just the unique circumstances that every person has has helped me. In so many personal ways of just learning like the reality of how the profession is right now to keep my hand on the pulse of like what's happening what people are up against how things are transforming slowly quickly. I've learned a ton about like how broad this profession is, you know, like you you choose architecture and you're like, I'm gonna study buildings, and it's so much more than buildings. And so we've you know we've interviewed geologists and lawyers and CEOs and people who work with like the port authority, contractors, construction workers, editors, journalists, podcasters. We've done just so many, you know museum curators, and realizing that you know, these all have a very common thread through architecture.

C So it's not nearly as narrow as we think and like painting that picture of how it connects and what what you can offer out at with the skill sets that we have too, right, as architects.

A What kind of feedback do you hear from the people that read Madame Architect?

C Our favorite feedback is when the younger generation is like, oh, this inspired me so much or this helped me so much or it's being shared with by, you know, by professors with students who literally don't know, like, any names in architecture, don't know any women in the field. And so to say, like, here's a catalog of people. That for us is just so rewarding to go from, like, oh, I don't really know what's going on to feeling like, oh, there's a ton of people I could reach out to or talk to. And I feel like I have a wealth of examples in this field where maybe you're the only 1. Maybe you're the only 1 in your family that's interested in architecture. Maybe you're the only 1 that's even like in the AEC industry, but like to feel like you're not alone. And so when people connect and resonate with the interviewee and just have insights to share about how it connected with them personally, all of those are just big, big returns on the time and effort put into the into the platform.

A Yeah. To feel like you're not alone. I mean, that is totally at the heart of why we do this too. So I I resonate with that. What is the long term goal for Madame Architect? Like, how do you guys wanna where where do you wanna

C go? Oh, gosh. Where don't we? So we wanna keep growing. It's something where we wanna keep telling stories and eventually, like, I don't know, big plans. There's big plans ahead. It's a very slow growth platform, and I think a lot of ideas kind of get offered up of like, oh, you could take it this direction and that direction. You should turn into a podcast, and you can monetize it this way and that way, and we can collaborate. But I think just trying to stay focused on, like, what the mission is of, like, we want to continue telling stories. We want to continue growing as a team that is able to support this mission.

C And I don't know. Like, the goal is have books written about women in the field to have a TV series about Madame Architect to, you know, keep growing so that this is not something that's done in a little corner so that people know what's happening and are are excited by it and can share that that excitement about the possibilities in this profession.

A Yeah. I mean, I I almost feel like I don't know if you feel this way, but, like, because women were so delayed in entering the industry or, like, there weren't enough of them, and we have kind of like a delay in terms of how many women there are as senior leaders, I just feel like there's like a lot of space to make up for. So I I almost see, like, what you guys are doing is, like, accelerating, like, no. Now we have a lot of women in here. You need to know who they are because the visibility is so important. I guess I'm curious, like, what advice you'd give to the allies who are interested in supporting women in the field.

C I think you've mentioned before that you listen to Brene Brown. Right? That we're both Brene Brown podcast listeners. And that she has shared her insight that, like, whatever she shares about leadership, people say, oh, that's great leadership advice for women. While the men who offer a leadership advice is, like, leadership advice for everyone. And so I think, you know, this is a platform primarily dedicated to women. We have done, like, an expand the conversation series where we're interviewing men about exactly this role, like how can you be an ally? How can you be supportive and getting their stories too with that, you know, special lens of, like, how can you be, an advocate and ally for for women in the field? But I just love that insight of, like, women leaders are women for everyone, and I hope everyone can see that, like, this isn't just women speaking to women. This is trying to show the immense talent that women bring to the profession and to legitimize their voices for everyone and not just for women to women or women to, like, new young emerging professionals that women are leading. They will continue to lead.

C They have an immense under tapped power and economically and societally that I think will just continue to to grow and have a stronger presence. So again, women leaders are for everyone, and I think Yeah. We can support that and listen to women. We'll all be the better for it.

A 100%. And and when I say I feel like I should clarify. When I say that women were delayed, The reason I know that to be true is because when you look at leadership in firms and organizations, there is not an equal balance of leadership from a gender standpoint. And so as long as that exists, I mean, that is evidence, like, we're if we're not promoting women into leadership positions, if we don't have women leading at the executive level, it's it's an indicator that there's a problem because it's not that we don't have enough women in the industry, we have a lot of women coming into the industry. But actually getting enough into leadership positions is the thing that I see as the problem.

C That's right. It's a very well documented gap, and AIA will publish on this regularly and say, here's an NCARB and saying, here's the number of women coming out of school. We're hit 5050. And even in school, it's usually more than 50. And then as you step up that ladder, it just keeps dropping, dropping, dropping, and now it's like, what, 17 to 20% of licensed architects are women. And out of that 20%, like, once you get up to the top roles, there's been 1 Pritzker Prize winner that's a woman. Gold medal awards have gone to various partnerships with women as well, but just very few awards, very few high honors, very few top leadership positions. We are, I think, as a society, kind of understanding that more and reconciling that better and realizing that we can't just maintain the status quo and eventually, like, we'll catch up that we have to actively, like, do better and be better.

C And I think Madame Architect is just a part of that larger narrative that is really just transforming where we are as a society right now saying, women are here. We are here, and we are doing this job super well, and listen and promote and accelerate. So I I 100% know where you're coming from Janine and I I appreciate you kind of connecting the dots with Madame Architect to say like, yes, it's helping. It's hopefully moving the needle.

A I love what you guys are doing, and I I also wanna ask about any advice that you have for women in the field of architecture.

C My first advice for women in the field of architecture, I think think first just recognizing, like, you've come a long ways, and you are where you are. There's always more and more and more and more ahead, but I think just recognizing, like, who you are, what you bring, what your values are, and, like, just know that, like, you are needed here and you're wanted here and, like, please stay. Well, like, you have chosen to listen to this podcast or, like, pursue this interest for a reason, and, like, you can add to this profession with who you are as you are right now. So that's 1 is just an appreciation for those who are just trying to be in the room and are in the room. And second is, I just think we have so much to be able to learn from each other. And this idea of sharing collective narratives, sharing our collective stories just is a part of who we are of, like, needing to tap into 1 another as a resource, and I think we should. So learn from those who are around you. I love when I talk to women and we ask, oh, who are you admiring right now? And they say, like, my sister or my mother or my neighbor or people who are in their own circle that they have their eyes open to and are actively admiring and learning from.

C I find that so powerful to see, like, you are aware of the good around you, and you are actively trying to absorb all of that influence and and learn from it. And I think it's it's something that we're trying to offer as, like, again, like, a more robust and remote system of, like, here are women all around that, like, you can learn from and hear from. So open your ears to women in your periphery and your orbit and learn from their stories and take a lot of motivation from them. I mean, just honestly, women are amazing, and we have so much to learn from women. They have so much to offer, and, yeah, listen up.

A I totally agree. And if you haven't been to Madame Architect yet, please pull up a web browser. Go search it. Take a look at some of the stories. They are producing so much great content with really compelling conversations with leaders, and I think there's a lot of content to explore about different types of leadership and what the varied types of leadership look like in our industry. That's right. Even just under the topic of women leaders, it looks different. It looks widely different depending on whose whose story you're reading.

A And so I really encourage you to, follow the work that they're doing and we'll drop the link in the show notes. Amy, it's been so good to have you. We adore you. We're very excited about your career, and we will continue to cheer you on. Keep us posted on, how things are progressing because, you know, we we wanna see you at the top also.

C Janine, we're lifelong friends now. This has been so fun to be on your fantastic podcast. Y'all are doing also just so much praise for y'all. You are working so hard to generate so much quality content as well. And so from 1 fellow content producer to another, I just wanna say y'all are doing a phenomenal job, and we also are, like, our eyes are open to what you are doing, and we're so so impressed. So thank you for putting in the work and the effort to elevate the voices of those in the profession who are disrupting architecture, disrupting practice, and have so many insights to share. So excited to continue our friendship. I'm sure we'll be bumping into each other at all future conferences, and plenty of great collaboration opportunities ahead too.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast.

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