Open Architecture Collaborative Pathways to Equity

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects.

A Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. This season, I've lined up several episodes to feature guest speakers and organizations that are near and dear to my heart. Each one inspired me at a different phase of my career when I was trying to discover my voice and where I fit in the profession of architecture, and they continue to be organizations that represent my hope for the future of the profession. They are all mission driven at their core, and they are some of the hardest working people in our industry trying to bring about change.

A In today's episode, I'm very excited to welcome the Open Architecture Collaborative onto the show. The OAC is a global learning community mobilizing architects, designers, and a diverse range of professionals to shape the built environment. I'm gonna let our guest speaker tell you more about the mission of the organization in just a few minutes. I'm very pleased to welcome to the show Shalini Agarwal, who is the director of the Pathways to Equity program.

B Pathways to Equity is a program committed to centering equity and racial justice in architecture and design practices. Their goal is to create transformative learning experiences, shifting the field towards anti racism and equitable outcomes. We are excited for today's conversation, so let's jump to the interview.

A Hi, Shalini. How are you doing this morning?

C Hi. Good morning. I'm so thank you for the invitation to speak with you today.

A Yeah. We're so glad to have you here. And honestly, this invite has been on my priority list for a long time.

C Yes, thank you thank you. So a little bit about myself, first of all I'll start by saying that my pathway has not been very straight. It's actually been very windy, so I really wanna encourage folks out there who are finding themselves maybe a little bit lost that those are great pathways. So I started in architecture and I'm trained in architecture and worked in for a number of years on all kinds of projects. And I would say that during my time in the profession, I was looking for something that didn't exist, and I would say on a normal day to day. And so parallel to my career in architecture, I was very interested in doing community work. So in, 1996, long time ago, I was working in Chicago with a group of interdisciplinary people, architects, landscape architects, teachers, gardeners, activists, community leaders, to really think about what it meant to do work in community. And so, cofounded a with this amazing group of multidisciplinary folks, cofounded a nonprofit, called Architreasures that brought community based design to communities.

C And that was my start in really understanding how I could leverage my knowledge, skills, and experience for the benefit of community and have the community really lead the process of design. So that's kind of where I got my start, and it's been this long journey ever since. So it's been this journey ever since of wanting to learn what it is to do community based design. So throughout this journey of working with community, I was finding that I was there was no place to learn how to do this. And I was learning, if you will, at the expense of the community. I was messing up. I was doing some great things, and I was also messing up, and I would say potentially creating harm without really recognizing what I was was what I was bringing, really the best approach. So, essentially, what ended up happening through all of this is that I also teach.

C So this parallel of kind of doing the work in communities, doing some architecture, and then also teaching kind of led me to this question, like, what does it mean to show up in communities? What does it really mean to do work in communities? So that's kind of where I am today, and it's a little bit of an intro, but it's also kind of a journey, a little bit of a journey map. So

A yes. I totally relate to that drive and and curiosity. Very early in my career, that's exactly what I was looking for. I was trying to figure out how do you actually practice architecture in a way where you're designing for the community and creating solutions to those problems and challenges that they're facing. And that was kind of how I found my way into what is now known as the OAC. So why don't you tell us who is the OAC and what is the mission?

C Yeah. So Open Architecture Collaborative is an organization that was founded by a dear friend, Garrett Jacobs, shout out to Garrett. Really, I would say, a a next iteration of architecture for humanity, but with the focus of maybe doing more localized work with chapters. So it was a global network, and we've kinda realized that actually we should not be thinking that we can go outside of our our understanding again, really, grounding in, like, what does it mean to show up in communities and recognizing that we should show up in the communities that we have more knowledge about, especially culturally. And so we have now transformed into a chapter led network, and our mission is mobilizing architects and designers and a diverse range of professionals who shape the built environment with the technical skills to build capacity with communities experiencing systemic racism and marginalization. And I will say that we most recently added this term of including racism in our mission, recognizing that we can't do this work without acknowledging the systems that have been put in place to prevent the systems that have been put in place in order for equity to really take place. We are committed to building relationships to address these systemic inequities in the built environment by cultivating opportunities for equitable collaborations with partners, with community partners.

A You know, so Garrett is a really dear friend. I was involved back when it was Architecture for Humanity, and there's a long history there that we could talk about today, but I think we wanna really focus on what OAC has done since you came into your own as a new organization. And I would say that the mission that you have just articulated is different than where the organization started off a few years back when when they first set out. And so I was curious if you could talk a little bit about that evolution because I think early on, we were talking about social impact work, but the the fact that now we're talking about racism as a part of that process in that work is a huge step forward in in this conversation and I just want to make sure that our listeners hear that in the evolution of what social work is. How did that come about?

C Yeah. So I'll take a step back from that question for a moment because it has been an evolution and it has been a growing experience. I really wanna say that again, kind of starting off by saying I'm on this meandering path of, like, discovery and learning, learning with and from others, always, always. So one of the things that was coming up in creating this chapter network. Right? So so the chapter network was having folks work in the communities in which they were most familiar with. So they it was very kind of city based. And one of the questions that was coming up with folks kind of doing this this work in their communities, well well, how do I do it? Kind of that question of, like, how do I do the work? When I started about, like, saying that, you know, working learning at the expense of the community. So one of the questions that Garrett was getting was how do I do this work in communities? And at the same time, I was doing a similar initiative in terms of teaching students to do work in communities through academic learning, And that was the question I was getting from students.

C So on both ends, the professionals and the students were asking these questions. Yes. We wanna do work in communities, but how do we do it? It was almost as literal as, like, how do I start a conversation with someone? It was that basic. And so that's kind of where Garrett and I came together, because Garrett knew that I was doing this work in school, and I think he had heard about this, and I had started doing these trainings that were focused around academic learning, but really what ended up happening was that they bridge. Right? So it wasn't just, okay, people in school needing to learn this. It was people in the profession. So that was kind of where we partnered, and that was the creation of Pathways to Equity. And the way I like to describe the work of Pathways to Equity in relation to community engagement is it's the work we do as architects and designers and planners before we do the work.

C So it's before stepping into the community. There's a lot of work that we need to do. We need to understand. We need to ground set. We need to, yeah, like, that to me is a practice of equity. It's not just feeling like we can go in and start from our starting point, but, actually, what's what's the information we need to fill in for ourselves before we start? So, yeah, that was that was kind of the birth of Pathways to Equity, and we we had a an NEA grant that launched this program back in 2018, and it started with you know, it was kind of started from this idea that there was a better way for us to do this work. And I will also add that, you know, in I talked about doing work in communities back in Chicago, and that has been my consistent, work throughout, I would say, until today. And so all of the curriculum is based on my learning with communities.

C So it is an example of not theory to practice, but practice to theory. And so it's incredibly experiential. I would say it's very personal. I will have to say that it is definitely a a collaborative learning. I've learned with people and from people, but it's really, really points to what I think I've heard from students and professionals and community members about how this community engagement can be, you know, how it can go beyond good intentions. I think that's the best way to describe it is we have a lot of good intentions, but good intentions, I'm afraid, is not good enough.

B Well, before we jump into pathways of equity, I just want to make sure you mean, we talked about at the beginning, your own journey towards community work. And we just talked a few episodes ago about with the AIAS about how this next generation is really interested in being a part of organizations that are really mission driven, and leading social impact within their communities. So before we dive deep on Pathways to Equity, can you tell us how as a student, as a new graduate, as a firm owner, like, what are the different ways for us and our listeners to get involved with OAC?

C Yes. So we have our our chapter networks and they are in various cities and I know I'm not gonna remember all the cities. I am doing less of the chapter. We have folks in our organization that that do that, but they're in New York and, Chicago. So the way that folks can get involved with OAC is really look and see if where they where they live and practice has a chapter. And then the other way that they can get involved, especially around if you are interested in community based design, is sign up for our Pathways to Equity program. So I will also say that Pathways to Equity has some really based on the need that we've heard from our community. We have our own 10 week program, and then we also do webinars.

C And then we also have done firm consulting, where we have worked within firms to provide an equity training, internal equity training. So, I can talk a little bit about those as well. But those are the ways in which we have been doing the work, the ways in which people can engage with us.

A I wanna talk about the work itself because we keep saying the work. Yes. Maybe we can, like, talk about an example of a project type that fits in this category, and I also wanna dig into identifying the gap because I know that's a really important part of understanding where the intention for this work is coming from.

C Yes, so let me start by identifying the gap. You know, this this program is called Pathways to Equity. That word equity, you know, let's just pause, you know, and really talk about what equity is. You know, equity, by definition, is giving is is providing the resources for all to thrive, providing the resources, and that can be in the form of information, financial, social, structural. And if we are really thinking about that in the built environment, we have to we have to really look at where resources have not been distributed equally. And so when we dig in a little deeper there, especially around this work around community based design, we can't help but notice that our communities of color have been excluded for a long time. And if we dig in deeper there and we get curious about why that is, we have to point the finger to the built the people who have impacted the built environment. And, you know, and in fact, the more I do this work and the more I do my homework, because this is not something that I was taught ever in school or in the profession.

C That practices such as redlining have today created what we see. And I would say redlining is a system. It's a system of racism. And I if your listeners aren't familiar with redlining, I suggest this is a great way to get curious. So one of the things is, like, get curious about why the things are the way they are. What we see is not by accident. It's by design, and we can see the impacts of redlining on in so many levels. Housing, of course, and but, like, everything, education, health, food, surveillance, safety, environmental justice, like, everything that we see is based on the fact that someone with a red pen drew a line on a map.

C That is architecture design planning. Yes. I mean, that was done by a human being or human beings. And so I I really I feel so incredibly accountable as someone who is trained in that profession to not knowing that these things that that were quite frankly based in racism have now and here we are. And that was done in the 19 forties, and it was supported by many systems in the government, for instance, and finance and development and real estate and planning and architecture. So I think that we have to just lift our heads up from what we're doing and ask questions and be curious and ask why and do our homework. We are all this is something. We are all really, edgy you know, we're all smart.

C We're educated. We have training. We've got we've done so much work to get to where we are. But when we think that it's a blank slate, for instance, when we think that we're starting with a blank slate, I really encourage folks to just ask why. You know, why are the things are why are the way why are things the way they are? And there it it's as it's as kind of big, if you will, as redlining, but it can be as small as the language we use, How we talk about housing, how we talk about people. Right? And the mindsets and bias that we bring when we we are talking about communities that have not been given the resources that they deserve. Yeah. So that that's that's a lot of I mean, I think for me, I just got really curious, and I started to I started to kind of ask these questions.

C And to be honest, I was kind of felt like I was the only one who was asking these questions about why are you know you know, how come I never learned this? You know? And I'm actually also really interested in doing this work. Like, I think for me, it's just, you know, I just felt like I wanna do this, and there's no other place to do it, so I'm just gonna do it myself. And I I I really believe in the power of a single person. I would not do this work if I did not believe in the power of every individual to make a change. And it doesn't have to be this big gigantic change immediately. I also wanna remind people that it has taken us centuries to get to this place, you know, back when this this land was colonized. And ever since then, we have had this mindset, if you will, that the land is a resource. Yeah.

C And so that mindset that has over centuries kind of that the mind is a resource and we need enslaved labor to build up that resource. So land and labor have been in inextricably linked and also very much tied to the success of some folks and not all.

A That was so well stated, and I think everyone can clearly hear the argument in that and the opportunity to to think about how we're designing boundaries and systems differently. And it makes me wanna talk more about the people that get involved with the OAC because I think that they all come in with that spirit of curiosity seen So can you give us a few examples of some of the types of projects that you've seen OAC members take action on?

C So when we started Pathways to Equity in 2018, we had an in person training as well as an online training. And for obvious reasons, our in person, right around 2020 when the pandemic kind of was happening, we went a 100 percent to online. So I can speak more specifically around outcomes from our trainings, from our in person programs. So one of the things we did was we spent 2 full weekends, so a lot of time together where we talked about this, like I said, what's the work we need to do before to me. In fact, I really like in a in a profession that really looks to outcomes as a way to celebrate. I actually look to process as a way to celebrate. So I really have to talk about our training. So if you will, if you imagine, way we structure our training is like this set of concentric circles, well, where we start with who we are in this work, and then who we are with each other, and then who we are with community, and then who we are kind of as a broader, you know, in our society.

C Right? So, really, like, I love to think of it as this rippling. So we start around ourselves and, you know, what's our role? Who are we and what are our identities and how do how do our identities contribute to the work? Yes, we are trained in in architecture design planning and that is just one of our identities and in fact, when we're doing work in communities, it's so beautiful when we can bring our whole self because we can relate to folks within our whole self. So that we we we start with that kind of identity self identity based work, and then we talk about it in with respect to each other and how our cont our identities and will change and our power and privilege, if if you will, changes depending on our identities in the context. So then we, from there, we go into the history. So kind of a little bit of understanding who we are in the work and then the context of the history that we haven't learned. And so I mentioned redlining, but there is a whole bunch of examples, and we have some amazing facilitators that teach us a little bit, just scratch the surface of this history. And there's now there's a lot more books and resources out there around, you know, what is the history of the built environment and why is it the way it is? And then from there, we talk about systems design. So, one of the things that I also like to say is, as architects, oftentimes, our mindset is that the solution is is something built, and that is great.

C That is one of the solutions. But I do think that we need to have a broader systems thinking mindset because the issues of inequity in the built environment are systemic, and so, we have to take a systems approach. And so we talk about systems thinking and really thinking about, well, yes, we can maybe do something at the end of this process, but what happens if we did something maybe in the middle or the beginning? And what are, if you will, tiny little maybe levers? I don't know how best to describe it. What are some tiny things that we might be able to influence in this looking at the system of why something is the way it is? And then our our fellows, if you will, worked with a community partner. So I'll give you an example of how one of these so this learning that everyone had applied to one of the partners that we worked with. So I'll name the partners West Oakland Environmental Indicators Project, and they are doing environmental justice in West Oakland and in here in the Bay Area. And it is a neighborhood that is bounded by highways and and industrial pollution, and this is by no accident from redlining in highways that were really designed around this community, these communities of colors because they saw this as a place for, exerting the power.

A Yeah. And just to go a little further because I used to live in Oakland. So there's a bridge from Oakland into San Francisco. This is the area where the shipping containers bring cargo in to the port of Oakland. It's on the other side of the city away from the pedestrian friendly space and pushing up towards those shipping containers, which is this complicated system of highways overlaying in that area boundaries of, you know where there is housing and where there's underpasses for highways and there's BART trains and it's kind of a very defined space of pushing people into this area, and it is highly polluted. There's a lot of concerns around pollution in this space.

C And there it has the highest incidence of asthma for the kids there. So miss Margaret Gordon, who is the leader, and Brian Beveridge, 2 leaders, has literally taken on the EPA and holding them accountable. And amazing. Look her up. She's, you know, one of my sheroes. And so we had a group of fellows work with miss Margaret Gordon in West Oakland, and it's still ongoing. But one of the things that was happening back then was that the Oakland A's, which is a baseball team for those of you who are maybe not following sports, was building a new stadium, and guess where? And as architects and designers should know, when we do these big construction projects, people get displaced, things get lost, communities get erased. And so miss Margaret had really taken it, you know, to the Oakland A's saying that you can't build without really thinking about the community and the impact and and how how will this benefit the community.

C And so one of the things they were working on, they have been working on is a community benefits agreement or CBA. And so our group, our team, which was made up of planner, 2 architects, transportation planner. And so, yeah, what do you do when you're kind of an architect? You're like, well, I all I I do know building, but I don't know, like but I'm seeing that my you know, what I would be hired to do is actually causing harm in this community. So what this team did was educate themselves on CBAs. So, again, we're thinking about systems design and and expanding our tools. And so they did some research, and they basically talked so what this project became was about how do we empower the community with knowledge of what a CBA is and what to ask for. So, yes, maybe we're getting a seat at the table, but how can this team of planners, architects, transportation planners leverage their knowledge and share it with the community. Now what what miss Margaret, the benefit for her as a leader, so she would invite this team to these meetings.

C You know? This is some high powered meetings. And she said that she was like, here's my team. They understand the language. They know what's going on. They are going to, if you will, translate what is happening for the benefit of the community. And so to me, it was about knowledge, power, knowledge sharing. Right? And I, you know, again I'm learning. I'm like wow.

C Right? Like I don't even know how this knowledge and learning is going to land because if we really listen to what the community needs, we can address those needs as opposed to, like, well, we know this is what we know and this is how how we can contribute. But what is the need based on like now this community leader saying like, tell me what you know, tell me what you do, Here's what I need help with. So I think a lot of the relationships that I've heard in terms that's that's one example, but I would say that and sometimes it does it has led to design work as well. I I do want to clarify that definitely architecture has played a role. But I really like to focus on the non architectural stuff because I I really think that that's where it removes it puts us in a place, if you will, of discomfort of not leaning on what we know, but actually trusting that we know how to how to learn and putting us, if you will, in a place of new learning and and removing that expertise, maybe label. Right? Like, I'm coming in as an expert and actually I'm here, I'm on your team, and let's work together. And I think that to me is a really important shift in this learning.

B What's interesting to me about all of it, I mean, we constantly or I at least constantly talk about expanding services beyond traditional architecture practice. And that really a change in language from I'm an architect, to systems thinker is needed to talk about the value that we can bring. And I think, you know, oddly enough, like, this is the space where I, when more architects want to operate in with the end users, Is this stake and stakeholder engagement process that they want to be a part of? And I know that there's gonna be a lot of listeners tuning in and saying like, Yes, I want to be a part of that. What do you say to those individuals who have found themselves, for instance, in a high end residential firm? Like, how does that person get involved with what you're doing? And, you know, how do they take the lessons learned from this curriculum and apply it to what they're doing in in their daily job? Is is there a link?

C Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So I will often say what so equity is, you know, as I shared the definition is providing the resources that are needed for all to thrive. We do a lot of training really saying, like and we get we get firms that are, like, well, we wanna do work in communities, but I'm like, you also have to do equity internally. You can't be practicing equity out in the community and being an equity inequitable firm. You can't just do equity in one place and then not you know, you have to look internally. So I I'm always like, yeah. Like, what does equity look like in the workplace? And we do, you know, the 2 are inextricably linked.

C You you can't be affirmed. That's not, you know, look looking at what people need to thrive and then just focusing externally. So and that so we've had some tough conversations with firms about that, you know, and a lot of it comes

A down to, you know, transparency and communication. That's one thing that

C we hear quite a bit. And so, you really like, what is it what would it look like for you to really feel like you can thrive? Like, imagine what that would be. And that's where you know? And it like, to do your best work. And I think it's about showing up as a you know? Again, I talked about working in communities and showing up as a as your full self. Imagine if you can do that in your workplace, and I do think that that's a step towards equity. And I do think that once that happens, it starts to ripple out, kinda like what I was talking about. Right? This concentric circle. And in terms of high end firms, like, you know, can you start to ask your clients about this? And then, you know, what's the line of what work you will do and won't do? You know? So these are these are all questions to me.

C I always say, like, we we can't practice equity on Mondays. We gotta practice it all the time. If when our work, in our in our in our practice, in our work, in our life, in our relationships, yeah, this is the kind of work that is I hate to say it. It's all the time. It's exhausting. It's it's exciting. It's exhausting as as well. Right? Like, I don't wanna say that it's it hasn't been worth it, but the reason it's exhausting is because our systems are not built equitably.

C And so it's constantly, like, interrupting what we're doing and how we're thinking and being like, wait a minute. This is the way we've always do it. Is there an opportunity to make a change, or is there an opportunity to just pause? I do a lot of pausing. And maybe just consider that we might try something different. And that takes a lot of courage. Right? So we are our systems are these well worn highways. And what does it mean to slow down for a moment and maybe pull over and and kind of look around? Yeah.

A I think there's a lot of work to undo to your earlier point. I mean, these systems have been built up over so many years that, you know, first, we went through this period of time where people had to get comfortable with challenging it. And now we're at a point where we're trying to undesign or deconstruct all of these systems and create new pathways forward. But to your point, there's a lot of work to do, and and everything's kinda related. I would imagine a lot of people are coming to you hoping that you have the answers. I'm sure that they come hoping to participate in the programs that you can teach them more about this work and hopefully make an impact on their firms or to take on a project that's really important to them. You guys have a application process coming up why don't you tell us a little bit more about some of the people that get involved in the program and and more about the program itself.

C Yeah. Thank you for for that invitation to share what we're doing. I mentioned that we have our consulting work and our webinars, but then we have our, I would say, our flagship program called Pathways to Equity, which is a 10 week program. It's 2 hours a week, and it's with amazing facilitators. Because this knowledge is not held by any one person, I also wanna say, like, I I know what I know, but I also know what I don't know. And I I'd say that it's all it's a collective learning experience, and we really believe that in order to learn this, it's about learning in community. So we do a lot of community building online as well, and that is, I think, something really special to our program. This work can be very lonely, and so what does it look like also to have be with a group of people who understand how important this work is? So in terms of so a little bit, we have invited speakers who come and share their expertise, and the type of person is, like, as long as you're just curious.

C If you think that there there's another way and you wanna know what it's about, that's it. That's really all it is. You do not have to have any other expertise. I really just ask that you are curious and that you are not and you know that there's something, another way of doing things and you wanna know what. You don't have to know how. To me, those are the most powerful people, and I I welcome you to join. I welcome all of those people to join. It makes me so happy.

C I really don't want to I'm not in the place of trying to convince you that this is better. But if you do know that there's something else out there, then please please join us. It's that simple. And if it's and if you do work that impacts the built environment, and I do wanna say we have had a fully interdisciplinary group of people from, yes, architects and planners, but landscape architects. We've had a physician, artist, real estate folks, affordable housing, a lot of people in sustainability, transportation. We've had engineers, I mean, lawyers, teachers, educators. I I mean, really, really, it's for it's for everybody who knows that how the built environment impacts what the work they do. So we have our application open now.

C It's until March 20, 2023 at midnight Pacific time, and we invite you to write about your own experiences. It's an application where we we are curious to know what you bring to the conversation and what you're interested in and and and who you are in this work, and it's okay not to know. We do not base it on your expertise of how how much you know about this, but really how open you are about learning about this.

B I think the the follow-up question to that is always, you know, these type of programs to bring together all these people, obviously, we're asking of their time. So what is the cost of the program? And as a young architect, are there any tools or even as a young not even just a young architect, but, like, as a as a young practitioner in the field, are there any tools or scholarships or anything available for for me to participate?

C Thank you for asking. We offer scholarships for our BIPOC participants, and we focus on diversity, you know, different identities, and we are very intentional with building a very diverse, group of people. We keep it relatively small, 25 ish people. And then for young architects, here's what I wanna say to you is go and ask your firm leader to pay for this. And if you need help, let me know. We have language. When we are talking about this work, this should not be an elective. This should be required.

C And when we are talking about statements that went out when George Floyd was murdered, here's how you can take here's how a firm can support that statement. And so, again, to me, it's about accountability. And and it this is this is, like, easy, just sign up and have your firm principle, have the people who make the decisions back you up. This is a shared responsibility. And and I would say if

B you are a part of any of those firms that made any statements during, then you should point back to the statement they made because I feel like so few firms are being held accountable to those words that they felt that they needed to say something, but I have yet to see full action against what they put out there.

C Absolutely. I mean, the reality of this work is that it it's these tiny little steps. Right? It's like but, yes, if your firm made a statement or has made a diversity, equity, and inclusion statement or has made any commitment, here is a way to hold them accountable. I'm sir I'm and and, like, I think your work is done, quite frankly. So in terms of the the cost, it's between 6 100 a1000 and with the sustainable amount being 800, and we offer scholarships, and we offer BIPOC Scholarships, and we will work with you. But if you are working for a firm, I really want to encourage you. And we have wording if you are interested in getting funding, we have some language to you so that you can bring it to your firm and ask your firm leaders because we recognize the power dynamics of this work. And a lot of times, it's the younger generation that's asking, and that younger generation isn't always in in in a place of power.

C And so we know that that's, again, a systemic thing, and we want to we are here and we wanna support you in in asking as well, because that is part of this learning is is understanding the system that allows this learning to kind of come into the workplace. And actually, it's, you know, it's changing. It's it's changing what's happening in the workplace, and that can be really scary. Yeah. And and uncomfortable. We go into uncomfortable conversations, and and it's still uncomfortable for me, you know, to have these conversations, but I think this is, to me, the learning. The learning is actually getting comfortable with discomfort. And I also need to say before I kind of forget, this is about relationships.

C So everything that we do is about building relationships with you and with the work that we do with each other. That to me, you know, rather than moving from transaction transactional work, which is so much of what our profession is built on capitalism, like, let's go let's go big here, that actually when we start to think about the relationship we have with each other, with our communities, with even the, you know, even our work, our personal relationship with the work, that's how I think we can start to make to shift the status quo.

A So I was at the presentations of the students who had gone through it, and then I think it was at the Tenderloin Museum in San Francisco. They they presented their work. Was it the 1st year? Yes. That was the 1st year. Okay. I remember it. So Garrett yeah. Garrett invited me.

A I went and listened to all the students present, and it was an amazing little celebration about not only their individual assignments that they took on, but also the community that was built around it. But I'm sure the program has evolved, and so I kinda wanted to talk about, you know, what have you seen over the years of facilitating this program? How has how has it impacted your students? How has it evolved? I know I've asked you, like, a 10 part question, but I I'm just so interested to know how the program's grown over time because I think these hard conversations raise so many learning moments that I'm sure it shaped how you guys have changed your approach over time.

C Yeah. So I will say it's landed with different people in different ways. Equity by definition is not a one size fits all, so I think the way people learn is the same. Right? It's like how this learning lands is different for each person. I know that some people have quit their jobs. I know some people have really found their voice when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion, and have become leaders. I've seen them step into leadership at the AIA. I've seen people, like, start a DEI committee.

C I've seen people thinking about, well, what does it really mean to do an inclusion, you know, to create inclusion in our in our firm? I mean, people have gone back to school. I hope that it's it's been a way for people to reflect on what they're doing. And, yeah, I mean, I it's hard for me to say exactly. I will say we have over 800 people who've gone through our curriculum now.

A That's amazing. That is amazing. Congratulations.

C I have to say it, and I kinda have to, like, take a breath. It's a lot. So from webinars and firm trainings and our pathways tech, we have about 300 from pathways to equity, and then we've been doing so many other trainings outside Uh-huh. That we have 800 people who have heard our content. That's amazing. Amazing. And, honestly, if even just a handful I I reach a handful, I my work is done. I feel so strongly that it just takes one person to make a change.

C The outcomes I've heard have been more anecdotal, but I wish I could be in more touch with everybody. I really, really do because that's, like, what I love. I love the relational aspect of this work. It's like the the people who did our in person cohort, like, they're my friends. Like Mhmm. Yeah. Well, but, you know, I got really got to know them really well. And and then online, when sometimes if people will reach out to me outside of the training, I'm always always interested connecting.

C So, I mean, I think, like, again, the the what I've seen has been anecdotal, but I would say that, another example, we did a training for a firm, and they really understood, you know, so a lot of public projects are asking, you know, what it what is your equity statement? Like, what is your practice? And so what I really appreciate about their approach was the real honesty. They're like, yes, we are this is, you know, we do not have, like, black people in our firm, but here but here's our our measure of accountability. And and being able to talk about this, especially around race, with a level of honesty and comfort. Right? And so I think, like, when I heard that, it made me really happy to hear that they it wasn't about, like, oh my gosh, we have to get this project, but let's be really honest about who we are, Right? And see, you know, rather than pretending. Another story I heard, you know, is in one of our our firm cohort was that, you know, they were talking about pay equity. And because they knew that people in the room were in the cohort learning, they paused and they they actually interrupted the conversation and say, hey. Let's actually pause for you know, like, let's focus on pay and gender equity for a moment. And and so they they slowed down this this conversation that they were having that kind of, yeah, we have it.

C Let's just pause and ask a couple questions. So those are, you know and I and I will say that it's the small it's these small moments to me that are are incredibly powerful and also knowing that there are literally other people in the room who have your back. Right? Right? I think it's about creating community around this work so that you're not the only one that's kind of like, you know, another you know, it's me again. I'm the squeaky wheel. Yes, squeaky wheel. It can be a good thing. But when other people have your back, it's like it makes you stronger in in order to be an advocate for this work. So, yeah, I'm I'm excited.

C I I hope you know, by the end of this year, I think we'll be another 100. We'll be yeah. And we're gonna cross a1000, which is amazing to me. And I'm not do I I just actually Garrett was like, so how many people have we trained? Just just recently, and I just kinda made those numbers and my eyes got really big. I'm like, wow.

A Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. I was pretty much every time I hang out with Garrett, we end up talking about all the stuff that you guys are up to, but he was telling me about the firm going inside the firms and actually working with the firm leaders, which is fantastic. I think that's a amazing thing that you guys have expanded to your portfolio of services. So if a firm is interested in getting in touch with you guys and working with you, what steps can they take if in addition to this application process for individuals?

C So our program is open to everybody across the country. If not, we've had people come from across the world, and we don't take any more than 3 people from a firm for that very reason that we wanna diversify who you're with. But from that came requests from folks who were taking us, like, I wanna bring this to our firm. So you just reach out to me, that's my first name, at openarccollab.org, or you are info at, and we will receive the request, and we set up a meeting. Again, our trainings are customized to where you are, what you need, and where you're at. And we do have some core learning, but in general, we really work with you to I would say it's not just meeting where you where you at, but actually pulling you in, pulling you up. Yeah. Like accelerating the conversation, I would say like calling you into the conversation.

A Yeah. And I I feel like just having done a little bit of this work through the podcast and in my own journey, I can say I loved what you said at the beginning about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable because I feel like that's half the battle. It's, like, not missing the moment to have these conversations. You said in the small moments, like, that's that's, like, what you really like, and it's because for a long time, those small moments have been missed opportunities by leaders who've, like, completely not used the opportunity to talk about something and their inability to be okay and comfortable with being uncomfortable to have the conversation holds them back. And so I think I just I think this is such an amazing opportunity for people to get out of their comfort zone, to walk into those conversations, to learn how to have those conversations with other people in the room and and be engaged towards taking action in in a positive direction.

C Yeah. Thank you. It really is about and I I just wanna name that the discomfort isn't about making you feel terrible, but it's really about being in this place of new learning.

A Mhmm. You know,

C it's like kind of putting aside our, our knowledge base and being comfortable with new learning. And, you know, if we reflect back on anything that we learn for the first time and how it's hard, that's what this is. It's it's really and if you're somebody that embraces new learning, then maybe it won't be as uncomfortable. But it is it is about new learning and new knowledge and actually hearing about histories that we haven't been told that quite frankly have been erased. And I would say that as I am seeing politically in this country of how there are histories that are considered important to be told and not, I am concerned that these patterns will continue. So the things that are happening are impacting how we learn what we do. And so anything that kind of hides the truth is going to impact what we do, especially when it comes to people and their place of being and their environment. There's no question in my mind.

C So I I am constantly in this place of wanting to unearth people's stories, which is community engagement.

A So we will put in the show notes the link to the application process, and if you're thinking about applying to this program, we highly encourage it. Is there anything you wanna leave our listeners with about what they can expect if they're on the fence about signing up? What is coming down the pipeline for them through this application season?

C Yeah. No. And, you know, I I think it's okay to be on the fence. I don't I'm you know, this work is here for you when you're ready. I really just wanna say that. You have to be ready to hear and to to show up. It's about showing up. That's all it's like you were asking what who needs to be interested.

C You need to be curious about another way, and you just need to show up because we really believe in the power of the commitment to this work. So, yeah, if you're on the fence, we are stay tuned. We're thinking if we have time and capacity to do an info session and maybe and share that out. But we have an FAQ to our I think it's on our application, so you can also check that. That has that answers a lot of the questions that you may have. And, you know, please please reach out. We're very much about relationships, so sometimes this can be an a beginning of a relationship that has us engaging a little bit later. We're here for you for what you need.

C Yes. And can

A you tell us a little bit about where OAC is heading in the future?

C Yeah. I mean, I think we are actually in the, just in the middle of figuring that out. So after about 5 years of building this up from, I would say, responding to what is needed in in the profession, in the learning, like how can we leverage what we've done and actually, you know, what are the things in which we're interested in doing? And so we're looking at how we might be engaging more BIPOC folks and really thinking about creating pipeline or creating pathways to new leadership and new ways of leading. And so that's that's one thing. I I will say we are still in this. I I it's not that I don't wanna share, but I think that it's an emergent process, and so we're still kind of figuring it out. But that's a personal interest of mine for sure, so, yeah.

A That's great. Yeah. No. I think that the social impact work, you know, as I've been around, it just it seems to be continuing to evolve because it's still kinda new. And so I think it makes sense that you guys are gonna continue to, you know, test those ideas and evolve them over time to improve what you've been doing and elevate to reach more individuals with new ideas and new methods of practicing. So I guess anything else that I didn't ask you that you wanna talk about before we come to a close?

C No. I just have absolutely enjoyed this conversation, and thank you always these these types of moments for me to me, myself to pause just remind me of, like, why I do what I do. You know, like, it's because it can be hard, and it is like that question about, like, the next gen that's interested in mission driven work. I think it's knowing that this work is sits outside of the norm, and so it can it's hard. It can be hard. So thank you so much. I could talk more, of course, and I'm so happy to hear that you've been involved with OAC. And I'm sorry that I I know I've met you in other ways, but I'm so happy to hear that you know about the work, and and thank you so much again for this invitation to speak about the work that we are doing, and, yeah, to supporting it through these stories and all that.

C So thank you.

A Yeah. My my pleasure. Honestly, I'm I'm so proud of all the amazing things you guys are doing, and I see how much of an impact you've made. And I just wanna commend you guys on that because people in our profession are looking for what you all are providing in terms of education and impact and leading the profession forward. So we need you guys, and we're really happy that, you know, we can support you in having you on the show. So I I'm looking forward to seeing all the great work that's gonna come out of the new applicants who join you for this next program.

C Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And we love when we're supported by firms as well. So, like, one other thing is firms can support us. And really, again, like, look thinking of that statement of, you know, of commitment to equity and racial equity. It's like, here's here's a very easy thing for you to do. You can support us in this work.

C Yes. And we are a women and women of color led organization. So yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you.

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