Architecture, And: Ceramics

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted. Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine.

A Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors.

B So today, we're talking with an incredible entrepreneur and architect who is building a business in ceramics, which I thought was unique just because of the fact that it's ceramics. I was introduced to Betty years ago. I was introduced to Betty through a mutual friend on Instagram. And we're bridging lots of time zones because Betty is in Auckland. And, literally, if it weren't for Instagram, I don't think I would have even have known of Betty's existence. But I was so inspired by not only the work she was doing outside of architecture and the fact that she was doing this while working at an architecture firm. I think she has a shared mind relative to practice and where the practice needs to head in the future.

A Betty has been someone that's been on our list to come on the show for quite some time, and so we're finally happy to make it happen because I've been hearing about Betty for over a year, actually. So I'm excited to hear your story and learn more about the amazing work that you do. So let's jump into the interview. We typically open it up asking our guests to introduce themselves. So, Betty, why don't you tell us about your story?

C Mhmm. Yep. First of all, thanks very much for the opportunity for me to join and then to share what I'm really passionate about. And I guess I'm the first, New Zealander joining your show. That's true. So that's really, really exciting and and actually showcase what we do in New Zealand. Like, so a bit about myself is if you are an Instagrammer, you probably know a little bit about myself. So I'm a full time architect by day and a ceramic artist by night.

C And recently, I have another full time job, which is a mom. And that's been keeping me very busy, and things are no longer according to plan like I used to like to do. And so I'm a Hong Kong born Chinese Kiwi, and my husband is a 100% Kiwi.

B Yeah. Why don't we start with your architecture background? So you are you're you're an architect in Auckland. So tell us about a little bit about where you're working and and what you're doing in that capacity right now.

C So last year, I decided to change to another practice to further my career after I've been working at another practice for seven and a half years. And I was in maternity leave for about 5 months, and that made me think about what do I want to do next, and what story do I have to build to tell my daughter. I want to set a good example as a female architect, the female role to my daughter. And so that's when I decided to move out of my comfort zone and work in a new practice, which I feel that it'll give me a lot of opportunities in my architecture, but also my passion in ceramics, how I can combine the 2 seamlessly. And this is very, very exciting, very dawn thing for me as well because taking a new role as an associate architect, which needs a balance of being creative as an architect, but also having the leadership role as well. And it's something that I haven't quite done a lot before, and I am very grateful for that opportunity.

B Yeah. So obviously, you you're an architect. What made you want to be an architect and then where did your interest in ceramics begin to kick in?

C So art is something that I've always been interested in, and I have, someone who has inspired me for a long time is someone called Jean Christo. I like the passion and the perseverance in doing architecture and doing their art, installation. And they are someone who's inspired me to become an architect. So I was always interested in art. And when I was young, I remember my mum gave me a piece of dough, and it's something that I always remember that I want to mold something with my own hands. And that gives me a really good feeling, and it's something that I still remember. And doing ceramics is such an expensive thing that I wasn't able to do until like, I wasn't able to take on seriously until probably I started working.

B So I know a lot of architects who are very creative hobbyists on the side. I think that the difference between having a hobby and doing what you're doing is you're actually like, you created a business out of your love for ceramics, and you took kind of the next step to be an entrepreneur. So, you know, I guess, what made you take that next step, or is it kind of inherent to who you are?

C Yeah. So I actually evolved naturally. And it was, it started off when I was working and living in Melbourne and I got invited to do a project with a cafe called Patricia on Burke Street. And they're at lawyer sort of precinct in the area. And so there's lots of really fancy and high end cafes. And I was doing a project with them, and that's when I started realizing that, oh, a hobby can actually turn into a profession. And it gives me the satisfaction that what you really, really enjoy as a hobby, you can actually get someone actually willing to pay for your work. From there, you just start building your your brand, your reputation, and and a lot of my projects is just word-of-mouth.

C I don't have to approach a lot of businesses. They approach me. However, if there are ones that I'm particularly interested in, I will give them a nudge or put a little bit little bit more energy in connecting with them. But I feel that I'm in a position to say no to certain ceramic jobs if I don't need to. And, yeah, eventually, it just the business just grew naturally. And and at one stage, I remember I took some time off and did some ceramic works for, commission full time. And I was in my studio by myself producing the work, and I drafted out a calendar, like, how many pieces would I produce each day, And I was just on this production line. And I learned from that experience, I learned that it not it's it's not something that I really wanted to do every single day, tuning out the same thing again and again and again.

C I thought there's gotta be a smarter way of doing it. And at the same time, I'm still really interested in in architecture. So how can I pursue both? There's gotta be a smarter way of doing it. So why don't I focus on the design work and actually outsource or collaborate and give, you know, people the opportunity to work with you. And let people who are good at doing what they do do that work for you. And so then that's when I thought, okay, I can outsource or collaborate while I'm in my office doing my architecture and just touch base with them how you're going, you know, on a weekly basis. So the business grew and I end up starting to take over a 1,000 pieces of work, which is, like, I no longer can do everything with my own hands. And how I set up my business is that I have different lines of works.

C So one is a mass production, so it's a lot more accessible because ceramic is such an expensive thing, but you have still have to pass on the cost to people. Otherwise, you can't survive. That's that's

B the same with architecture. Right?

C Yeah. And exactly. Exactly. You're right. And that actually makes me learn a lot about architecture as well, about, you know, you know, how an architecture business can actually survive. So one line is mass production accessible. So because people want a piece of Betty Chung Ceramics work, they might not be able to afford it. And they might want a piece of your work that they can first afford and then slowly build up their collection.

C So first, get them interested in your work, get them have confidence in your work, then they will spend the money and invest, you know, in your in your work. And then the other lines, gallery works, which promote the value of your work, and they are pieces that are art, not functional pieces, because there's a different price point for functional pieces and artworks. And then I also do markets as well, in which people can actually see my face and see who I am. And, there there are people that have been following me in, on on Instagram for years, and they they come and say hi, And suddenly, you put your personal touch to your work, and that's really, really, really important. And also doing markets is a very good way to test the market to actually see what people are interested in.

A So in addition to, you know, these different service lines that you've developed, it sounds like you also run workshops as an additional pathway to connect back to the community.

C Yes.

A Tell us more about that.

C Yeah. Absolutely. So every month, I run, workshops in my studio, and that's a way that I, like, connect with the community. And I do one day workshops, mostly focusing on hand building projects. And you have all sorts of different type of people that want to do ceramics. You have people coming from the finance profession, accountants, physio, therapists, artists, some architects as well. And it's such a nice way of connecting and actually taking what you're passionate about to the next level because it's something that you really enjoy. But actually being able to actually share what you really love with with people, and you get to spend, you know, the whole day with them, and that's that's quite beautiful.

A Yeah. That sounds like a really powerful experience getting to share something that you love back with people in your community who are probably looking for their pathway into that as a hobby or just even escape. What has come out of, you know, facilitating those workshops for you?

C I think is when you teach something to someone, you actually realize that you learn something from someone as well, and it's almost like an equilibrium. I think that's that's really, really cool. Also, building up friendships as well. And some of the students that I am still actually connect with from maybe 3 years ago, and they just become friends. And then they end up helping me with something else. I think that that's really a cool way of connecting with different people from different background.

A So as I'm listening to you tell your story, I'm, like, of course, on Instagram over here looking for your handle. So I found it, betty Chung _ceramics. I'm looking at this body of work. I mean, first of all, it's beautiful, and there's ton of really great pieces in here and all kinds of what you're describing from art to looks like the mass produced work and the events that you're going to the community. I guess I my question is with having this dual identity as someone who practices architecture during the day and then has created such a tremendous amount of work in your after hours. What is it about ceramics that really keeps you excited about it? And what is it about architecture that also keeps you invested in that as well?

C Oh, I think so. So I'm interested in both, and I I had in the past, I've for architecture, I've done a lot of design work, but as well as being a site architect, kind of hands on person. And doing site works really gives me that satisfaction seeing the final outcome. However, what didn't give me dissatisfaction is that you don't have the 100% control of the final piece. There's a lot of factors that you can't you you don't have the control, you know, somewhat you know, a builder's building your work, and it's not, you know, it's not by your own hands. Whereas with ceramics, there's less factors that can change the variance of the final piece of work. You are able to control a little bit better with your own hands, and the scale is a lot smaller. Yeah.

C To me, I think architecture and pottery are almost as important as each other for me.

A That's really interesting because, you know, we talk to a lot of people that get frustrated with architecture and then they leave, but you're actually someone who's holding on to both of these parts of your identity and doing it sounds, like, really well. I was also wondering if you could clarify for our audience. You said you're a designer. You're in a design role in your firm. Is that correct?

C Yes. So, yep, I am a designer. I'm an associate architect. So I do design work as well as having that leadership role running the team.

A And what kinds of projects do you work on?

C So I work for Esmyth Group. So they do a lot of community, focused projects, which gives me a lot of satisfaction. I am quite new to the practice. I've only been there for about 5 months at the moment. So I'm very looking forward to being more and more embedded into their projects and their system.

A Betty, we'd love to hear more about the firm that you're working with. Can you tell us who they are and and what's important to them as a design firm?

C Yeah. I love to share, about ISMA's group, who's a practice that I've recently joined. I'm very proud to be part of the practice. So this practice is not a traditional architectural practice. It's originally landscape architecture practice. And what's really beautiful about them is that they're very community focused, and their ethos is about land, people, culture. It's not about themselves. It's about what we do you know, what they do is about people.

C And that really touched me, and that relates to something that I just talked to you about earlier, about what and who inspired me was Jean Christophe. And when as the husband and wife team, when they execute their projects, when they take the plane to a site, they decide to take a separate flight. It's because just in case if if there's a plane crash, if one person dies, the other person can continue the work. And I find that very beautiful. It's about what they offer for people, not about themselves.

A Yeah. We just pulled up their website, and I'm gonna drop the link in the show notes so that our listeners can go visit your firm's website. It's a beautiful website, I have to say, and the projects are gorgeous. You definitely get that sense that this firm really cares about the landscape elements and how the project integrates into the earth, and it just seems like there's a sensitivity there. And then I can also see a lot of emphasis on the community that you were talking about. So it looks like a great firm to look at just also for case study projects for other people that might be listening.

C When I first had an interview with a practice, they said there's no ego in the practice. And I've been in the practice for 5 months, and so far, I haven't seen anyone with with an ego in the practice, and I found it quite a unique practice. And I'm really looking forward to having more and more understanding about the practice and also having more and more input in the practice as well.

B So you obviously started ceramics while you were at your other firm. And I think there's quite a few firms, especially in the US, that don't encourage side hustles. They think that 1, if you're working on a side hustle, then why aren't you working on my work? And 2, I think usually when people consider a side hustle, they think it's a distraction, but they also think you're doing architecture as a side hustle, which I think is like another thing. So when you started this out, started doing this, like, what was that conversation with your firm like, and and were they receptive?

C I've always been, very open about who I am, and companies that I pick has to match what I'm interested in. And at the interview, I'm very open about that my side passion is ceramics, and it's very, very important to me. In the architecture profession, I feel that it's very important to have a drive. Everyone has different things that that drive them. For me, ceramics is the component that makes me who I am. And if a practice is only interested in the things that their workers do in the office, I mean, architecture is a creative industry. And if you only focus on things that you do in the office, then you your creativity would dry up. And, you know, then you ask the boss, like, how long do you want to keep your staff for? You know? From a long term perspective, you want you want your staff to have that drive, you know, something that inspire them from a ongoing basis.

C Otherwise, I think that that passion or their output won't last for very long.

B What's interesting is a lot of people don't go, especially a lot of younger people in our field, don't know what to ask for or don't even realize that they have the ability to ask and share that part of themselves in the process. So to me, just the fact that you kind of lay it all out on the plate in order to get what you want is a lesson learned that I hope some of our listeners can take away when it comes to the ability to craft their career trajectory in a way that it works best for them.

A Yeah. I totally agree. I think there's so many people in our field that are creative and have side, you know, projects that they like to work on, whether it's photography or sewing or ceramics. And I think what we're hoping our listeners will take away from this conversation is that if you wanna practice architecture and you happen to be somebody that also has an additional passion, there there is a way to balance that. And and so my question to you, Betty, is at what point did you decide to make that transition in your career and start doing more and more ceramics to the point that you were able to grow it into a business?

C So my ceramic business got to a point where I have have a very disciplined life, which I had to finish my work at 5 and then get home at 6, and then have dinner, and then start my ceramic work at 7 or 8 until and then I'll work till about 12 in the evening. And it just keep it just keeps being like that from Monday to fry Monday from Monday to Friday. Every day is sort of very, very disciplined. And then on the weekends, I was also working all all my weekends, I was also working on ceramics. I'll be, you know, sanding, potting, hand building works, just a lot of, like, very labor intensive work. And I got to a point where I thought, do I really want to do everything myself or should I collaborate with other artists on these projects? Yeah, I think it's important to being an artist is important to not being in your own studio by yourself. You need to still connect with the community. And by collaborating with people is connect is having that relationship with others is important.

C It also helps you to throw yourself out there.

A How many people do you have that you're collaborating with right now in that capacity?

C I have one company that I work closely with locally, and then I have 2 other people, individual artists that I come into my studio and help me out with my projects.

A And I'm assuming that that collaboration has allowed you to probably expand your volume of what you're producing and maybe even your client base?

C Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And so that I can focus on design work.

A So do you still find yourself coming home after work and carving out that time for yourself in the evening to spend thinking about ceramics and the design of each piece that you're making?

C Now that I have a daughter, things has changed a bit. Previously, my pottery and my ceramics are going in parallel to profession going simultaneously. Now that I have another element, I am in the process of resetting and reprioritizing my parameters and trying to understand what what do I want to achieve.

B Well, I one, I think you're not the only person who has had a shift in priorities after after motherhood. I struggled for quite some time to figure out what that identity is between being a mother and growing a career and being relatively active in the AIA, and and I tried to silo them for a long time. And I think what I found, and maybe this will be helpful to you figuring out what your next steps are and what your hopes are, is that really I just similar to how you brought ceramics and architecture together, Like this motherhood is a part of you and, to continue to show up as your whole self going going forward. And and, yeah, it'll it'll continue to evolve. I'm sure as my children change and grow through their life stages, what that looks like. But I'd love to get a little bit deeper, Betty, on how motherhood because at one point earlier on the podcast, you said, you know, doing ceramics was a very you have to be really diligent with your time. And for those of us who are parents, we know that we are no longer in control of our time, not nearly as much when we have children. So how has motherhood changed things for you? What are the biggest things that motherhood has changed about how you approach your firm work and your work in ceramics?

C I think time is a difficult one for for me at the moment. What has changed me is now that I'm no longer working for 5 days, I'm working for 4 days. And, yeah, I'm trying to achieve 3 things at the moment, pottery, architecture, and looking after my baby. And I think that, well, I used to say to someone, if you love something, you can always have time for it. And if you don't have time, which means you don't love it enough. And that's when I was doing pottery and architecture at the same time. Now I'm trying to reprioritize to trying to understand myself and trying to understand what what are the important what are the most important things to me? How do I achieve these three things? There's only so much time you've got, you know, on a daily basis. Something's got to give.

C What's the thing that is gonna give? It's something that I need to work out at the moment. Sorry. I used to work for 5 days. Yep. Now I'm working for 4 days. And one extra day the my Friday is the time that I spend with my daughter, and that's family time. And, yeah, and at the same time, trying to work for 4 days, I think it's once you become a mother, you become a bit more efficient, and you reprioritize and understand what's more, you know, what's less important. And what you used to maybe worry about and or fuss about.

C It's not that you realize that it's not that important anymore.

B In hearing you say that, buddy, it's funny because I'm just like, what is on my plate right now that I'm probably prioritizing higher than I needed to be? That if I had like other things that if I were in newborn mode I would have, like, knocked off just out of pure necessity. I do think though, buddy, that as you're going through this own, your own exploration, what I've learned through having kids is this idea of phases. Right? There's this the crying, screaming phase. And right now, my daughter is in this she she calls it snuggle buggles. She's in the snuggle buggle phase. And the screaming phases, you want to to get through really quickly, like the the sleep training and and the the teething and and the young. But, like, I don't want this snuggle buggle phase to end. And if I apply that to kind of, like, at the same degree, I think it's it's okay to let go of pieces of your work at certain points in your life and just know that it's a phase.

B But the great thing with those things is that you can always return back to them as long as you kind of catalog them and keep them top of top of mind. So for me, prioritization doesn't look necessarily as linear as it did historically before I was a mother when everything was all, like, on all the time at the same rate, I guess. Betty, when we were first talking, I think you also had some very interesting things to say about kind of the the freedom that's allowed you to do this, but also where architecture needs to head as an industry. And I think we've talked a little bit about that. Like, right, that by doing this, you've gotten a lot more creative freedom. And I think you're unique because you you consistently ask for what you need out of your employer. Is there anything else that you think or any any things that you see in firms or that you could encourage younger architects to kind of take on to to change the industry for for the better?

C I think that being an employee and employer relationship, I think, is a two way street. I think that don't be a being an employ just because you're an employee, it doesn't mean that you can't ask for what you want. I think from my experience and from my perspective is finding the right firm that suits you. And it's really, really, really important because you want to wake up everyday feeling energized and feeling happy to be, you know, to be part of that team. And for me, I think I'm quite fortunate that I have found the right practice for myself and they have I'm not the only person that has got a side passion. There's a lot and a lot of people from our practice that have side passion, such as an amazing painter, who exhibits his work on an annual basis. We've got, you know, we've got musicians who are an opera singer. And I guess I'm very fortunate to have found this practice that really, people really appreciate who you are.

C And I think that as an artist, as an, as an architect, you need to value your, you need to value your own work. You need to, you need to value your, you need to value your own work. You need to be proud of who you are and actually not be afraid to show to show it off. And if the practice is not appreciating who you are, then maybe the practice is not right for you.

A It sounds like you've found a really good fit with the culture of the firm that you've just joined. And so I was wondering, are there other things that they're doing that you're really excited about that you'd recommend to other firms about ways that they can evolve their, the way that they're thinking or the way that they're running their studio that would be beneficial for employees?

C A 100%. I think that the employees needs to respect their employees, needs to appreciate, like, who they are and if they have any side passion, actually welcome it, not against it. And actually celebrate it maybe on a regular basis. You know, if someone is, if someone likes life drawing, you know, celebrate it. And if it's someone likes, painting, celebrate it. You know, if someone likes ceramics, celebrate it, bring it into the practice, you know, using it as a a design tool. And regularly celebrate it is important because otherwise people forget, People get busy, and then people go back to their old habits. I think that every practice should have some sort of cultural policies in place, yeah, that people follow, I think.

C It's it's just so important.

B Yeah. I'd love to talk about how the firm is more aptly taking your ceramics and and creating partnerships out of it.

C Okay. So we are doing this is actually the first time we're doing it for the practice is doing a demonstration using digital three d modeling versus manual ceramic modeling. And actually taking people outside of the comfort zone, getting their hands dirty, doing ceramics, and implement using clay to implement different design options quickly. Actually, I'm actually learn I'm actually learning more about it because it's a collaboration with my colleague. So it's gonna be a few minutes exercise trying to model things in in 3 d, and then another exercise trying to model similar things in in ceramics to see how how people utilize these tools as a design tool Mhmm. And how people react and perform with these mediums.

B So I'm of the generation. Like, I really still appreciate the tactile even though I would say that I am I'm generation expert. I would say I'm I tend to be an early adopter. So I love the opportunity to take these very tactile things, these things that you hold in your hand, and also kind of draw comparisons between the the key computer capabilities. And I'd be interested to see kind of what what the bringing those 2 together, especially on the ceramic side yields yields in the end. So you'll have to you'll have to share either on social or share some of the the outputs of the workshop with us.

A Are multiple people gonna be making ceramics or is it you? Like, are you modeling it?

C I'm gonna demonstrate the constraints of Uh-huh. Clay. So for example, someone could be making a form, like an a letter a sort of form in digital, like online or something. And then I'll be demonstrating how to make an a with ceramics and how people would react with this clay. Will they feel, you know, intimidated with the clay, you know, with the hands, you know, getting their hands dirty? And will that actually evolve to something else? The completely different

A Oh, man. So much room for creativity in that

C process. Yeah.

B I was literally talking to a practitioner earlier this week that was, like, looking at how we begin to bridge generations. So I feel like this is an exercise that a lot of firms could do between kind of the older generation and the younger generation, the digital natives, and these these individuals who have who were in school when everything was drawn by hand. So kind of even do a a switch role kind of a switch roles of getting the older practitioners to model something on the computer and getting the younger studio members to to draw out something by hand and kind of what lessons can the generations learn from one another through attempting that exercise. So I feel I feel like there's a workshop in your future, Janine, out of this.

A Oh my gosh. Totally. Like, it reminds me when I was in AutoCAD class in high school, we had a teacher who would make us do wall sections or I think it was wall sections. I can't even remember at this point. It was something like that, like but he would time us and we would get a certain amount of time to draw it from scratch without looking at anything and then we would to print it at the end of the time, and then he would lay them out all next to each other and order them, like, best to worst because we would compete in these drafting, I don't know, competitions in our high school region. And so he was trying to get us to like learn how to work quickly and efficiently and then produce really good work. But I could totally see like you doing like speed runs on this and really gamifying it. I think to your point, Evelyn, it's definitely an interesting idea about what kind of medium could you use to break down those generational gaps and essentially communication gaps and to elevate culture inside the firm?

B Yeah. So, Betty, you mentioned that you have this new role where you're actually playing more of a leadership role. So as you step into the new leadership role, where do you feel like the firm can offer you the most support? And what do you hope to bring to the table kind of as as a new leader for those those individuals you'll be managing?

C A female architect is not an easy journey. And I want to set a good female role model to the rest of the practice. And also just because I wanna show that just because you're a mother doesn't mean that you can't do the role you're in anymore. You just got to do things differently and efficiently.

B And then the other question was, as a new leader, I mean, obviously, the firm has been very flexible when it comes to time. Like, what's the best practice for a firm to support individuals that are new to leadership roles?

C I think, to be as flexible as possible, especially after COVID, a lot of practices now work differently. I'm not sure about much US, but everyone can pretty much work from home now and just have your laptop, and you can just work anywhere, whenever you want. I think as long as you you have your work done, and actually having trust in your, in your workers as well, I think is really important. It's no longer the culture where, you know, 9 to 5, you have to be in the studio and being watched. It's not that it's not the same anymore. I think the practice is important that the practice understands Yeah. I mean, just being flexible and, you know, we might not be in I think being in being a a mother, recently, I've learned that all your daughter gets sick, and, you know, what are you gonna do? You've gotta work from home. And, you know, if if the culture was, like, back then, you know, you can't you have to take a sick leave.

C You know? How many sick leaves do you have? I think it is important that the practice understands that, that sometimes you might be working from home or you might not be working in certain hours, but you might be able to work later, you know, to still have the same amount of output?

A I think that this conversation has been interesting, not only just to hear your story about your passion for ceramics and architecture, but to, you know, really, I wanna say thank you for being willing to talk about your experience as a mother, a new mother. I think a lot of our listeners will really appreciate that. And I just wanted to, you know, before we close, bring it back to your art and wanted to ask you if people are interested in supporting you as an artist, if they want to see your ceramics and maybe even if they want to buy it, where where can they go to do that? And do you ship to the US?

C Anything is doable. The best way to contact me is on Instagram or check me out on www.betichung.com. I do have something that I wanna add. Like, don't be afraid to to ask for help and don't be afraid to be open about things. And it's important to build up a good network with the community and with people, and actually, like, be proud of, like, who you are, like, where you come from, and who's made you who you are today, and pay it forward. I think that's really important.

A And I also wanted to know, as somebody who's been growing your Instagram account to support this business, any tips on Instagram that you can share with our listeners, things that you've learned?

C I think being as regular poster as possible and being I think being responsive to people, being real to people, and make sure that you put regular posts as as possible. I think that's important to stay connected. And and also if being approachable as well is very important. And often you might have people who are interested in for example, I've been approached before by an architectural graduate wanting to do similar things in ceramics and pursuing ceramics and architecture, and and we went out for coffee. I didn't know her, but we went out for coffee and actually had a good chat about things and not be afraid of sharing stuff. Like, don't be too secretive about how how you do things. I think it's important because if you share things, you know, you might actually learn things from the other person.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com/podcast.

B Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers, and others in the community at practiceofarchitecture.com/community.

A Our social media handle is practice of arc. That's practice of a r c h. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello.

B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by the practice of architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.