Architecture is Political Crossover

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. This week's guest is a friend and fellow podcaster who has received several awards for her work, including Maryland's Leading Women 40 Under 40, the AIA 2018 Associates Award, and the 2022 Whitney m Young Award. And just a sidebar, most times when we jump on these calls, I have to do sound checks and help people with their sound equipment. And this is one of the nice moments where this guest sound equipment is amazing, and I didn't have to correct her at all.

B Mel hosts the podcast architecture is political and launching and developing her podcast. She shares her story of growing up in Tyler House, a low income housing development in Washington, DC. Her experience growing up in DC inspired her to pursue architecture, And through the creation of her show, she's explored her identity and the role architects can take in political activism and design.

A Mel, in preparing for this episode, I've been listening to the series on the Tyler House, and it has just really pulled me in. Like, I was just binge listening to it on the couch and I love the stories that dip into exploration of identity and architecture and I think yours does that really well. So So I'm excited to discuss this journey that you've gone on to discover your own story and then reflecting on your past to inform your current voice as an adult and how you're gonna use that story to advance the future of architecture. So welcome to the show. So why don't we kick it off by just in your own words, tell us

C who you are. So I usually I have imposter syndrome, like, a severe case of imposter syndrome. So I usually I oh, you know, I'm an Aquarius, and I'm I like long beats long walks on the beach and, you know, Like, so I start off like like that, but I'm actually going to tell you what I do and be detailed to it and just put it out there because I do a lot, and I don't really talk about that. And I part of the imposter syndrome is that I'm maybe perceived as pretentious or, like, uppity or bragging, and that's not the case. So, currently, I am a facilities project manager at Baltimore City Schools. Prior to that, the majority of my experience has been working on mission critical facilities, both stateside and international. I also work in housing. My passion is housing.

C So from multifamily to residential and to public housing. Extracurriculars. Okay. So I'm chair of the AIA Housing and Community Development Knowledge Community, and, I love this group. This is why I'm still in AIA, to be quite honest with you. We host webinars monthly, like, every Tuesday, 1st Tuesday of every month. Don't quote me on that. We recently just changed it.

C Housing awards, the yay, housing awards. This fall on indigenous day, we will be hosting the 2nd annual fall forum. The topic for that will be housing as a human right, and we posed a question, can architects solve the housing crisis? I'm also on the steering committee called DC Legacy Project. Now this is a group that actually I've interviewed. I don't know, Janine, if you listen to this one. It's called Berry Farm. It is a bunch of us actually, community members, artists, former residents, architects, preservationists. And we came together to create a vision for 5 historic landmark buildings at Berry Farm.

C So here's the story. It wasn't historically landmark when we got to it. It's located east of the river in DC, east of the Anacostia River, and this community is just entrenched in African American history dating back to, like, the civil war. It's public housing. It became public housing, and through public private partnership, it's 34 acres, public housing, and it was set to be demolished and redeveloped. And the community members, which form a community, like, even though the stigma of public housing, this was a community, and they took pride in in where they lived. And DC has a history of displacement, and they knew that the community will be gone, and they may not be able to return. It takes decades on average for a community public housing resident to get back into it get back into their home.

C With that said, we got together, and we did research. We talked to community members, and we were able to historically landmark 5 of those buildings. A documentary was created. We're talking about the history as well as the landmark. We got the documentary aired on a local PBS. Like, that was, like, huge. And I think it's, like, almost the past year, I think it's been a year, we've been doing a tour. We've been showing the documentary all over the place in the DMV, and we we recently won an award from the Vernacular Architectural Forum.

C So in May of 2023, Amber Wiley, who's an amazing woman, and I will be heading up to the forum to accept this award. So that is me in a nutshell besides the podcast.

B No. I think that's great. What's astounding to me is, you know, I've definitely heard people say, like, I don't have time to participate in the AIA. We've talked with multiple people even just this season who, like, participates in the AIA in whatever capacity, but then also participate in all these other things. So I I mean, I think it's just people spend time where they're most passionate. And where they think that they can make the biggest impact, and and thank you for most of your time and that time going to kind of all the nonprofit organizations and community organizations that you that you do.

A Yeah. You do a lot. And and I it's amazing. I love that you opened this saying that you had impostor syndrome because one of the things that I love about you is like how unapologetically you you are. And I think that's like, takes a lot of strength to just show up as you and admire it. And I think it's nice to hear someone admit that they struggle with that imposter syndrome. I definitely, I do too. I think Evelyn would admit she does too at times.

A And, I think it's cool that we can talk about that on the show. So jumping in, I think the thesis of this episode, we do wanna get deeper into the conversation around political activism. You've mentioned housing in your opening remarks. Obviously, housing plays such a big part in your story but in order to get to that part of the story I think we should start with just talking about why you feel so strongly about political activism.

C Well, I grew up here in the nation's capital, so I'm surrounded by politics from family members and friends who friends mostly, who work in the federal government, the proximity to government buildings. My high school, School Without Walls. That's a that's the name of my high school, School Without Walls. 21st and g Street, which is on the campus of George Washington University, And every day, I walked by the White House. Like, every day for 4 years, I walked by the White House. I saw the Washington Monument. Tower House, you see the Capitol right there. So politics has always been in my face.

C I've witnessed 100 100 of protests, like, I'm not even in it, and the street is blocked because someone is protesting something. I remember my one of my my former job was, like, again, near the White House, and I don't remember why what this protest was about, but people was blocking themselves, using themselves to block traffic. So it was, like, 5 PM rush hour, and you see all these demonstrators laying in the street. And that freaked me out because I don't know what law enforcement agency is going to tear gas these people. Like, it's it's real. So, yeah, I've been I've been around it. So it's kinda I don't wanna say it's second nature or something, but I'm just used to it.

B So I there's a lot of people who are, like, architects don't need to be political. Why are we in this space? I would love to hear your response. My response?

C Yeah. Okay. And it goes to, like, why is this title architecture is political? And the story behind that will answer your question. So it was a group of us at a firm, worked together, and I loved everyone there. Well, my current group is also awesome, but they were they were top notch, and we would talk about political issues. We were so diverse, and we would just talk about political issues. And so I was like, we should start a podcast, and let's call it Architecture's Political. And so I bought the domain name, and we we recorded 1 episode on Anchor.

C It was, like, 5 minutes. It was a test. And then we all quit, not at the same time, but we all quit. And we dispersed all across the country, and it just didn't work out. So I laid on this for a while, and then I was like, let me start a podcast. But instead of, like, hot button topics, it was I dug deeper and was like, every space that Black and Brown people inhabited becomes political. Laws, policies are created because we are inhabiting space. And it is political, and it I focus specifically on black and brown people because we don't talk about it.

C We don't talk about architecture. You don't hear us claiming space and talking about it, and I just felt that, hey. Let me just create a platform on it.

B No. That's great. I just it's something that I hear a lot about, especially when any big organization related to architecture and there's multiple ones come out and talk about, like, why are we why are we getting political? Let's just build buildings. So thank you for that response.

C But you know what, Evelyn? What amazes me is that, like, how do you get buildings built in the first place? Like, it kills me. Like, don't you have to go in front of a zoning board and remove that parking restriction or ask for a variance, like, you have to you are reading, like, zoning laws. Like, it's it's political. You you are in front of a board, an elected board. I don't get it. It is political. That's off the topic of, like, Black and Brown. That's just general.

C And also, and I was thinking about AIA, and I am loving what they are doing. Right? However, I am scared. Like and my fear is is that AIA is avoiding a subset of architects that do not wanna hear about this stuff, and all they want to do is talk about design. That's it. But it's like, why can't we just go back to design? Why do we have to talk like you just said, like, they're sick of hearing political stuff. They wanna they wanna just move forward. And I am scared because it's kinda like Obama in office. Right? That was a you know, you know, for me, that was the best years.

C And then the repercussions of him being president is to this day. Right?

A No. I mean, gosh, I really love that you said that Mel because I mean, it's so real and I get it. I think that that's true. I think there is a population within architects that don't want to spend their time thinking about these issues and what a missed opportunity that is, because I think there's so much wonderful opportunity in the design of thinking about these challenges and how to overcome them. I mean, just, you were talking about building code and zoning code and, and my mind immediately jumped to displacing people, which I think we're going to get into a little bit further. But when you embrace, instead of turning away to thinking about architecture as a political opportunity and aligned to politics and policy, I think that the opportunity to have weight in what you're designing for is even deeper.

C And it goes even the project types. So government buildings, federal, local, state buildings, judicial buildings, you know, like our court system, our jails. Right? All that are institutions of government that has a political side to it. So it's not just black and brown folks, which is what the podcast is focused on, but outside of that, there's this whole other subset that I think when someone say, can I just build buildings? Well, you know, what if you have an opportunity to build a courthouse? Are you gonna turn down that job? Absolutely not because you got a firm defeat.

A Yeah. So you talked about starting the podcast. Let's talk about what you've been able to do so far in your content creation with Architecture is Political. Maybe talk about some of your favorite episodes and some of the subjects that you cover.

C Okay. So I've divided the podcast mentally. It's not not on a website or I indicated at all, but one is to talk about where I grew up. So I'm researching Tala House and the area and talk to people either from the community or someone who has some type of historical information on it. And then there's the black and brown folks that's talking about architecture. And the goal is to not to talk to architects even though I I do, and as well as any anything that's related to that. Right? Black and brown topics. And just to let the audience know, it is a diverse group of people.

C It was, I think, last year around this time, all of my guests were white, and I was like, wait a minute. But they were experts in in the topic. And in the podcast in in the podcast themselves, they say, you know, I'm a white, cis male, and, you know, like, they identify themselves and understand the struggles that black and brown people go through. So they are vented. We have a deep conversation before just to let them know that I will be asking some hard questions that sometimes makes it to the on the air, and sometimes it doesn't, but but just to just to get the meat of it. So so my favorite episode? Well, my most popular episode was with Isabella. She's a TikToker. That was, like, my highly rated one, but that was also fun because I loved her content.

C And the other one with Chris Demrick, that was a good one, architecture, and that that was just a topic of just politics. That was a good one. And then Tallow House ones. The reverend I spoke to, the Berry Farms 1, That was a good one. I I did a Caroline Crouch. She has his, DC walks, Washington walks or something. He has a whole bunch, so it's kinda hard to to pick. My least one was with my husband.

C He's a he's an IT guy. And so I was like, during the pandemic, I was like, oh, these architects don't know nothing about IT and how to set up Zoom and, like, remote work and stuff, and people were confused. Was it VPN versus remote versus, you know, all this good stuff. And I had him on there, and that was the least listened to. But he was like, I wanna be on your podcast. I was like, okay, babe. Come on. Let's talk.

C And we didn't identify ourselves as being, you know, married. I didn't say, hey. This is my husband. But if you guys listen back and it was funny because when we were we were in separate rooms where we even recorded, we didn't record it jointly. I made him go on Zoom. He was in the basement. I was in my office, and we talked like we were strangers.

A It was great. You even had us on the show, which Oh, yeah. That's right. Yeah. No. That was a good one. I really enjoyed that experience, but I'm not fishing for you to say that we were one of your favorite podcasts. I just wanted to note it for our listeners.

A I actually felt really

C honored. This is our

B show, so we'll put our episode down in the show notes. Put

C put your episode in the show notes. Yeah. That's that's what you do. Right?

A Work it. Right?

C Well, you should. You really should because I think it was a great topic talking about AIA. And we didn't even get into the meat of it either. Right? Like, we we just scratched the surface of that.

A It's so hard. I think one of the things that was super hard about that episode was it's super complicated. So, like, how do you explain the AIA in under an hour, you know, at a level that somebody who has no experience with it is gonna be able to hear and not think that you're not being transparent about something, that's a little hard. What's interesting about your podcast, so you actually edit the show too. So you're doing all the work. This is this is kinda a side project for you.

C Yes? Oh, yeah. This podcast has been therapy, and I've said that a couple of times on episodes. It was one where after I got off, I started crying. And I was just crying a good job because I realized here's the story. So I've been doing a lot of stuff and sidebar, trying to get license, and it clicked as to what my struggle was. And when after I had a crying session, I started passing exams because I I didn't know I had trauma. I didn't know that how I grew up and the pressure I was putting on myself, as well as daddy issues, that I shut down. So if I fail an exam, right, I just shut down, and I won't pick it back up 2 years later.

C And, you know, by that time, exams have changed and, you know, and it's just it's just been this weight, and it's this perpetual cycle. So I get infuriated when people come up to me and is like, oh, you know, you need to pass your exams. And I'm just like, you don't know the struggle, you don't you're not in my shoes, and they're like, oh, yeah, I can help you. Help me with what? Like, you'll be my therapist? You wanna sit

B Back in the day when there was only one exam and we all came together.

C Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I am not, you know, and I'm not that person. Like, I've always said I love being mediocre. I don't wear a cape. I am not a Superwoman. Right? I don't want a cape.

C It's kinda like, you know, The Incredibles in that episode, and they're like, hey, if you wear a cape, it'll just strangle you and kill you, whatever. That's how I feel, you know, in in that instance. But yeah. So just I didn't know that doing this podcast is, like, saving me. I didn't know that.

A I heard that in your episode when I was listening, and I just want you to know, friend to friend, like, I feel the same way in our in our work on this podcast, and I didn't know it was gonna be that. But, like, it totally has been healing in a lot of ways. And I feel you on the frustration about people throwing, getting licensed at you and implying that it's it's just something that you need to power through. It's so much there's so much complexity.

B The the struggle with that is that implying that it also implies that you're lesser than in the current.

C And that's why I do all this stuff. That is why I made a point every single year I got an award. And then you're like, well, what happened in 2019? Well, I got married so I didn't win an award that year. I won a husband but not an award.

B So But then it's like you're winning all these awards. The pressure doesn't necessarily come off. Like, you know?

C Right. Like, Indiana doesn't matter. You know, I've worked at enough places where it they did not care because they wanted me they wanted that extra number so that I'm a bill I'm a higher billable rate. Right? Like, I can do the work. It's just they wanna charge me as an architect, and they can't. They can't put me on that proposal because I'm not an architect. It's a reality. It's all about financials.

C Right? It's all about that proposal, getting the money, and getting the job.

A So with your permission, I wanna get into your story. You have an amazing story to tell. There's an episode where you were, I guess, Payatak, who are friends based in Oakland, had you speak at their firm and you recorded it and you were talking about your experience growing up in the Tyler house. Are you ready to go there with us?

C Yeah, sure.

A All right, let's do it. So what was the first, you know, inkling that you were like, I need to go into this story further?

C I constantly think about ever since I was a kid, I constantly think about my story. I have asthma, and I had it really bad when I was young. I was always hospitalized, and so mortality has always been a thing for me. And so it was like, what is my legacy? Like, I don't have any kids or anything. So it was like, what is my legacy going to be? And I was like, I experienced all these things. I need to document it, and I need to be honest with myself and honest with my story because I used to hide it. I it's embarrassing saying you're from the projects. It wasn't back then, it wasn't, you know, it's not in architecture.

C This is a very elitist field. Right? Like, you are being judged by what you wear and your vernacular, your archi speak, and it's very judgmental. You know? And here I am, a black woman, like, I had to be of of a class, which is not my reality, so I pretended a lot. Oh, I didn't talk about it. It's like when I moved out of Tylenol House when I was 16 into DC programming. My mom was able to buy through first first time homebuyers a house, and that's where my story began when I talk about, oh, you're from DC? I was like, yeah. You know, I you know, this is where I grew up, and it's not a lie. It's just I didn't embellish it.

C And slowly, I started saying, on the corner of New York Avenue and North Capitol Street, that's my building. And as I began researching it, I was like, a woman architect designed this building. Clotilde Woodard Smith, who did the Southwest Waterfront, also designed this building. And then it had a pool. So where areas around the country closed pools because they didn't wanna they wanna kept their their pools a certain way. And she put a pool in this public housing unit, and she knew it was for Black people. And then to find out that Tower House, named after reverent Earl Gray, came from a a a Baptist church. So the concept of churches doing, like, you know, public housing or affordable housing, I guess, because that's what it was at the time.

C It was for families, it was for low and middle come families. The churches were were doing it, so it's not a new thing. And history repeats itself. As we all know right now in this political climate, that history is repeating itself. And I thought it was fascinating, and I'm proud now of saying it. I can I can say that this famous female architect who doesn't like to be considered a female architect, this is an architect, designed this building? So talk to

A us about Tyler House. It's interesting when you describe it. It's this iconic thing, the way you describe it, Tyler House. Like it has weight in the way you use the words. Help listeners see the imagery behind what that is to you in your, like, your mind.

C In terms of architecture, and I've been trying to get some drawings of it. She staggered it. Right? So it's it's in blocks, and she was very mindful of scale. So in New York Avenue, you have a bunch of road houses. So they're 2 story with, like, a a pitch, a roof, maybe an attic. Some have dormers on the 3rd level. And there's a driveway. And then next to driveways is the beginning of the apartment complex, and she lined up the height to match the roadhouses.

C And then when you turn, she goes up and steps. And so on, the North Capitol Street side, it's full height. It's 8 stories, I think. And then she steps down to, like, 6 and 4 or something like that, but she was very mindful. And nowadays, we would just go straight up. We would just like, let's maximize as much as we can. You know? You know, let's go 12 because because there's a there's a height limit in DC, so you can't go, like, 24 stories, obviously. But, you know, 13 you can go 13.

C Now I think it's been a while since I touched multifamily. But, yeah, they would just they would just maximize everything. Right? There's no and then play with the skin. But she, you know, is brick. It's a brown brick. She was very mindful of that, and only as a professional I noticed that. Growing up, I didn't notice that. I appreciate the build, and then there there was renovations done to it.

C I don't know if they still have the pool or not. It's been totally it had to be gutted because of the asbestos that they found hazardous material. And even in that area, like, it's a conglomerate of faith based organizations getting together. I mean, it's Northwest 1, and you have Jesuit, you have Catholic, you have Baptist. They all came together to try to solve the housing crisis at that time. Right? And now you still have a crisis, and then you tore down buildings to create new ones, and in a way, sadly, erase some of that history. I don't know what's gonna happen with Tyla House. So far, so good, I guess.

C I have no clue, but I'm grateful for it. Only now than I am.

A And I think it's because you went on this journey where you you did a series of episodes in your podcast to really understand and research this both from the architectural standpoint, from the community standpoint and from your own narrative standpoint. So what I'd like to hear is what you learned by going on that journey.

C What did I learn? I'm still learning. I put a I put a end date on the podcast. I said 5 seasons. In my latest episode, I said that I'm on season 3, and I'm like, season 3 may be 2 years. There's no rules on this stuff. Right? But the 5th season will be my last season, and I want a thing. I want a big architectural thing. I wanna be able to build something, and it's like the ultimate because of my podcast.

C I built this thing. I have no idea what this thing is. It could be a sculpture. It could be a garden. It could be a shelter. It could be a basketball hoop. I don't know. But it's creating a closure and then opening a new door to whatever.

C Because of my podcast, I'm able to meet amazing people, make amazing connections, and I want others to create podcasts. Like, the the thing is is I love hearing new podcast come up in in this space. Like, I get so excited, especially if they're black and brown. And and I get like like, Sean, the you you interview Sean or Sean interviewed you guys, and he's like, I'm just gonna try it and see if I like it, and I love that. I love that for him. It's a journey, and it's being vulnerable at the same time because, again, you don't know who's listening. I don't know who's listening to this and making opinions about me and hating me or

A loving me. I don't know. I'm gonna push you further. I really wanna get into specifically back to Tyler House, how using the podcasting medium as a storytelling tool helped you figure out your own story?

C It kinda evolved. You just open your mouth and you start talking. And let me going back to that Payak episode, I ended up creating a I went on Fiverr, and I was like, I want a cartoon of what I just said. And so I hired some random person. I was like, hey. Take this audio and put visuals to it, and they did. They made a little cartoon of me and wrote a little description, and it's me describing what a balcony means to me and how that was an escape. And I thought it was the cutest thing.

C It's going back to that legacy, and I'm hoping that'll help somebody because it definitely helped me. And I didn't really share it with anybody. I just put it out there. I didn't forward it to anybody or anything. I posted on my Instagram. Not my personal Instagram, but the Architectural's Political Instagram. And, you know, I got, like, 2 likes. Okay.

C But I did it for me.

A I mean, it was like one of my favorite episodes because I feel like I got to know you better and I could hear in it. Well, first of all, I've never heard anybody talk about a balcony like that extensively, which I think they said in the comments of the presentation. But what I heard in it was this little girl found architecture through this amazing moment in her life that she came through and then grew up and was able to look back on. And somehow in all of that, it informed your voice and feeling so strongly about housing. I don't know if you know it, but I can hear it like as you like someone else that works on podcasting and thinks about storytelling. I heard it and, I just think it's super powerful and I think it's really cool. I don't know.

C Well, I was in it, so I I didn't it's kinda hard. You know? Like, I am when I was crafting that, I was like, I need to be vulnerable, and I need to be authentic. Right? And as I was going through the photographs of, you know, pictures of me being a a little girl, and I I remember these things. I remember fear, right, and that fear being a catalyst as to me wanting to be in this profession. And then as an adult, knowing that this profession could not have saved me, Right? I had to save myself. So, Samel, you've told us,

B you know, from the very beginning in a way that, like, living in DC, everything has been very political from the very beginning, but architecture, what did architecture mean to you in the earlier part of your life, and and why do you stay in it?

C Okay. So there's, like, 2, maybe 3 of these Washington DCs. Right? So there's a transplant who came here for I work for a nonprofit because all the associations are usually housed here. All the lobbyists are are housed around here. I work for or I'm, you know, working for a senator. I'm an intern for a senator or, like, I came here because I had a job at HUD or, you know, transplants like that or school, and they just stick around. And then you have DC folks that's been here for generations and stuff, and so I've been teetering on both sides. 1, you know, DC folks, regular DC folks, and then as an adult, all the transplants.

C And there are 2 architectures. Right? Like, there there's housing that the owner created for themselves, and then there's housing that you were placed in. And I grew up in housing that was placed in up until I was 16 when my mom was able to pick her own house. So it's 2 different scenarios, and the housing could be can be a metaphor for poverty. Right? Because the thing that hit me the most in being poor is that your time is not your own. So, like, if you are on public assistance, you have to wait until they are ready for you. For housing, you have to wait until they're ready for you. When you have money, you don't you don't you don't have to wait for anything.

C You just go and pay for it. You just you don't need those services, and and you could choose your housing, right, when you have money. And I saw that when I first as a freshman in in architecture, the haves and the have nots. I was the have not. Right? And I didn't realize how expensive architecture was until I got in it, and I kinda knew it. You know? And, secondly, my peers went to pre college programs, you know, the the for for high school students, they went they went to those things, and I went to a free DC mayor Marion Berry summer youth program that was 6 weeks at Howard University. That was my experience. I didn't I that was my experience.

C But they got to go on trips and make models and all this other stuff, and I was stuck with scraps from the from 3rd year. You know? And I carry that with me, And like I said, I wasn't in those circles. And to this day, it's it's weird because it's I'm I feel like I'm still not in those circles. You kinda it's like the whole imposter syndrome thing. Like, I I go on the Internet, and it's and there is so dangerous. Like, I go on LinkedIn, and it's just like, wow. I am not I'm not you. And it's not it's not even about jealousy.

C It's just I don't have that. I never had that opportunity.

A And yet you made it into architecture.

C I don't think I have. And I think I think made it means I'm licensed. And then even after that, right Mhmm. I'm not I I didn't graduate from Harvard or Yale or any of those top schools. And believe it or not, that actually means something because you're the education this is this is another topic. I don't know. But school was very difficult for me. And because I grew up in Chocolate City and I was the majority up until I went into college, depending on the college, resources.

C So I went to I went to a school in one of the schools I went to, Wentworth. I got to hang out with all types of people from various other schools, Northeastern, Harvard, MIT. I went in into their studios because I knew people there, and their education was just so different. And it was, like, free thinking. Not to say that none of the other institutions I attended weren't free thinkers, but it was a different level And then and then what they had, you know?

A So tell me how you got from the idea that you wanted to go into architecture. Somehow you found yourself to writing The Vortex. And I feel like, you know, we interviewed you a year ago about that story, so we can link that in the show notes for our listeners. But it seems to me like you did find your way to a really amazing group of women who have pulled you into the profession.

C If it wasn't for them, I would not be here. If it wasn't for Noma, I would not be here. If it wasn't for Barbara Lawrie, definitely, I would not be here. I could not have navigated this industry without black women. Mhmm. Like, just straight up, I could not have done it at all. Mhmm. And I'm constantly trying to find a way of paying it forward, constantly thinking about so when I created this podcast and I here's an example.

C I I attended a NOMA conference recently in Nashville, and there was this woman who came up to me, and she was like, I love your podcast. And I started crying, and then she started crying. And it was just like someone listening, and I affected her. Mhmm. I just could not believe it that I had that power to affect somebody in that way.

A Affected her. You've affected others. You've affected me.

C I didn't even know that. Like, it and and I always say I did this for selfish reasons. Right? Again, this was therapy. This was I needed to find out why I was in architecture, going back to one of your questions. Yeah. Why am I in this profession? Why do I stick around it? It's, I think I'm good at it. Again, imposter syndrome. Right? I'm finally comfortable in my abilities.

C I still have a long way to go in educating myself, but I'm comfortable. I know how to put buildings together. Mhmm. You know? Like, I can do that. Let's talk about Vortex.

A Vortex won the Whitney m Young award, which put you on a pretty amazing, let's call it world tour last year.

C That was a world tour.

A I do wanna hear about that. Like, what what happened after that?

C That was the the conference, that was that was the best conference. Yeah.

A Last time I saw you in person, we were where were we? Chicago?

C Yeah. Chicago. That conference was awesome. That was just like, and to share it with 4 with 3 women, that was just amazing. And then even after that, just and it's not just, you know, us together, but also individually. Like, Katherine Williams was able to go to Boston and and speak about black women in the field, Kathy Prickmore. I know Kathy Dixon probably has. In our group chat, we're always, like, trying to just telling each other, hey, I have this, I have that, and just cheering each other on.

C Is definitely an honor. And, like, now, 2023, it's kinda like, back to normal. And it's also like, what's next? You know? Like, what's next for us? Which we haven't I think we suffer from fatigue. Right? So we still connect on on our group chats, but it was it was a really struggle the last time for all of us to get together and just breathe. And we still haven't really celebrated together, all 4 of us. That still hasn't happened because we've been so busy. Mhmm. But what's next for us? We're switching gears for vortex.

C At the NOMA conference, we had the men do it this time around, and, hopefully, someone's taking the lead on continuing that. If not, we will always, as always, support them whether we need to organize it again or just, like, show up and be an audience. And then how it just stemmed and how you have 400 forward and the first 500 and beyond the build and, like, the legacies keep going, going, going, going. I got a text recently from Catherine Williams saying that the African American directory on, licensed architects reached 25100. Woah. I mean, that's for men and women. I don't know if she's going to announce that a big thing, but

A it's exciting. Like, it's exciting. It is exciting.

C To see those numbers grow.

A So what's next for Mel? And also just thinking about, you know, a little bit about what you do day to day in your career and not just the podcast, but like, what are your goals? Where are you heading with continuing this work?

C So as chair, AI chair of, the housing community development. There's chair and then there's past chair. I I wanna not do AIA committees. I want to go into the community. Like, again, I love DC legacy project, and I I feel like there's a disconnect between architects and the community. I honestly do. Like, the the historical buildings on that project, I'm like, it was a missed opportunity for architects. And I'm thinking about other missed opportunities on other projects because I and I and I I can't finish that sentence of because because I don't know what.

C I can't really pinpoint it. We tend to talk to ourselves and not to others, and I really am trying to break that. I want to I haven't I haven't really done anything on telehealth lately, and I I need to I don't know if I have the time, but to find old drawings. I wanna get the original drawings. I wanna get Clotilde Woodard Smith's drawings of Tallahaus and take a look at it and put on my architectural glasses and understand what she was thinking. I I still haven't fully complete that circle. I want to continue to do less things and enjoy my family and life. And we are all getting old.

C And I wanna start thinking about what does it mean to be, like, 60, 70, 80? Am I still in this house? Am I going to be on an island somewhere? Like, what does that look like for me? Because architecture will always be here. The AIA was will always be here. Right? Like, whether we are here or not. And what does it look like when we retire? Because we all need to retire and be with our families and enjoy life.

A From one overachiever to another, I would say yes to pulling back. And I think yes to leaning more into your story. I want you to hear your own story.

C That's hard.

A I know it is.

C It's hard.

A I've worked with so many architects trying to help tease out of them what they're, you know, like, if how to write their bios or help them submit for awards or fellowship or, like, whatever. I want you, Mel, to hear your own story, and I want you to get the freedom of moving past the imposter syndrome because I think you have a beautiful story and I think more people need to hear it. And I think you should think about how it connects to all this great work you've done. You know, that really has motivated you whether you see it or hear it or know it or it's just happening subconsciously like it's totally driving you being this force and trying to volunteer in all these ways.

C I'm a take that and not do a but or anything. I'm just gonna consume that.

A You're gonna think about it, maybe.

C I'm going to consume what you just said, Janine.

A I believe in you and I, like, really I think you've got a lot of really great things ahead of you and you know I'm excited to see it and I want I wanted our listeners to hear your story. I wanted them to go check out your podcasts and hear the stories that you're collecting on your show in addition to your own. I think you're doing really good work.

C Thank you, Ginny. That means a lot. It means a lot.

A I respect what you're doing, and I think your ability to see the stories of black and brown people and to tell those stories and translate it for others to hear who either can or cannot see it into understanding how it relates to architecture is critical. Some people will never understand those stories. And what's even cooler is that beyond educating someone, you're touching people who need that support in their career, and that's beautiful.

C Thank you. And thank you for inviting me on this podcast. And I well, I will leave though is that I get asked all the time because I'm in this affordable housing world, and I get asked all the time about projects and, like, you know, just the number parts, like financing and all this other stuff, and I'm like, I don't know. And, you know, I don't know. People I know are tapped out. There should be a way in, you know, me being chair of this KC, trying to find figure this out, but architects, you need to promote yourselves. You need to be out there. You need to you just gotta figure out a way.

C You gotta, you know, hire that that intern that's not from architecture school, but is a a business major. Like, you have to this is a digital world, which we are trying to go back in time, but we need to be out there and let people know the amazing work that we're doing.

A Hi, disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practice of architecture.com/podcast. Be a part of

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B Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by the practice of architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.