Towards an Equitable and Inclusive Future: LGBTQIA+ Architects

A I'm Evelyn Lee.

B And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing. Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to practice. Disrupted.

C I'm Beau Frail, an architect.

D He him pronouns.

C And I've been really interested lately in the question, where does queer design begin? And I think of that in multiple scales. One is the reality that queer design and queer designers have always been a part of our communities. And I also think of it in personal terms of where does queer design begin for me, And I think back to architecture school, when those two words, queer and design, were so far away from one another, namely because I hadn't accepted my sexuality and I was coming out or letting others in going through that process in architecture school. And it's only been recently, really within the last three or so years, that I've thought about the intersection of the LGBTQI community, architecture design and community engagement. And one moment in particular that was really powerful was when I was part of a team organizing a design charrette for Austin's first LGBTQI center. We had an in person charrette, and in the room were over 30 architects, landscape architects, community members, all part of the queer community, who were there to design something for the queer community. And it was amazingly impactful to be in that room. And that's what really led me to start finding the overlaps in the intersections between my queer identity, my queer community, and design.

C And I think it's an incredibly important conversation to have because safe spaces are needed, especially in today's climate where trans and LGBTQI rights are being attacked in multiple ways. And so I love opportunities like this podcast where we can increase our visibility. But while we increase our visibility, let's also make sure we're creating spaces for our safety. And I'm really excited to have these conversations with a group of queer architects and designers because I really feel like that space is my soul community. I'm always empowered and energized whenever I get into a room for virtually or physically with other queer designers in searching for other queer designers and to create space for queer designers and architects to come together. I've had the immense joy to be part of starting an LGBTQI alliance at AI Austin, the second of its kind in the country. And after I moved to New York, I also have helped start the alliance here in the largest AI chapter in our country. So it's really been a joy to connect with queer designers who we haven't always been able to connect with because there's no roster for us, there's no metrics gathering the data on us.

C And it's been amazing to see the events and community being built through these validating groups. So happy to talk more about that as well.

E Hi, my name is Kay Kaczmarek. My pronouns are they, them, and I'm an associate interior designer at Methune, a Seattle based interdisciplinary architecture firm. For me, being queer is so much more than just something I associate my identity with. It is a huge part of what makes me me, and what makes me not only a great designer, but an empathetic listener. And I think that's something that's really important in the design field, is being able to empathetically listen to the people who you are in service of. I've known I was trans since I was a little kid, even though I didn't have the words for it. And it wasn't until about middle school that I really started to notice that the built environment upheld a lot of things that made my life extremely difficult. It made me feel unsafe, it made me feel like I would never belong.

E And it caused a lot of problems, not only with my self esteem, but with my overall mental health. I ended up going through conversion therapy for about 10 years. And it really took a very long time for me to trust and have faith in the people around me, especially in the built environment, which I always associated as something that was harmful to my existence. And so I was a hairstylist for many years, about 12 years behind the chair and being a teacher. And it's such an accepting and queer, beautiful space to be in. And it really helped me heal from

D a lot of that trauma.

E And when I sustained an injury and I couldn't do hair anymore, I felt very lost. And something that I kept coming back to was remembering that feeling as a kid, this hopelessness and this desire to want to fit in and to belong and to be comforted by space and not having that. And so I was faced with an opportunity that I could be the positive change that I wanted to see in the world. And even if I was having the ability to make one person's life a little easier, a little more barrier free, a little bit more comfortable and comforting, then I felt like that was worthwhile. All of the hardship of being one of the only openly trans people at my firm. So for me, being queer in architecture and being trans in architecture is a radical act of self love and love of my community. And I really hope that through the research that I've been doing with my R and D, designing Beyond the Binary, which is studying the relationship between the built environment and gender, that we can start to give designers tools to think queerly. You know, you don't have to be a queer person to empathize and think queerly.

E So I'm really excited to see where that goes. And yeah, that's kind of how I got into architecture.

F This is a practice disrupted recording for Sarah Nelson Wynneck Think back When did you come out as an architect? For many in architecture and design, there's this moment or series of moments that you can look back on as the moment you knew you wanted to be an architect.

A Maybe you were creative growing up or

F had a friend's parent introduce you to an architect. My journey is not all that dissimilar. I loved to create as a kid and recognized early that walking into different spaces made me feel differently. Yet I cannot reflect on my journey in architecture without also reflecting on coming into my identity. My sexuality as a part of who I am was something I knew early on, but I also quickly learned that who I was could not be because of where I was growing up. Surrounded by largely monolithic voices and perspectives, identity and sexuality was not just something you didn't talk about, you also did not show or feel it. I became driven by this then silent part of me, searching for a place beyond the words and actions of those I was surrounded by. Enter architecture.

F While I started studying architecture, still not certain if I actually wanted to be architect, it was an opportunity for something different, for change. It was an opportunity to come in to who I had known myself and my sexuality to be. As I became more certain in being able to be who I was, though, I still found myself questioning if architecture was where I was supposed to be. My first internship brought me back to Durham, North Carolina, the city adjacent to my hometown, the place I had intentionally moved away from. The summer was filled with not only spending time in an office, but working on job sites, creating and fabricating. But it was not just these moments of joyful discovery, creation and learning that had me curious if maybe architecture really was the profession I saw myself in. That summer I also had my first experience of the profession beyond an office, that first moment to experience community and practice, and to begin shaping the definition of community that I wanted to be a part of. It was also the first time I met someone who was out an architect running her own practice, speaking openly about her business and her partner.

F I remember when I first heard this, it was like My brain froze. My breath caught in my chest as I read the room and everyone else's reactions. Did they know? Were there any sideways glances? Could they also know about me? No one missed a beat. It was like my universe exhaled a collective sigh of relief and inflated in a new kind of question. Maybe I could be out in the workplace. Maybe I could chase the not yet discovered dreams. Maybe there was a space for me, a creator, a connector, a woman, a lesbian in architecture. As many stories go though, this was not just the end.

F While I did graduate, move to a large city with a legacy of diversity and queer culture, and get licensed as an architect and have been practicing since then, this moment and the impact of visibility did not just end with that summer internship. In the middle of the pandemic, myself as well as three others were asked to join a panel discussion hosted by the Savannah College of ART and Design AIAs Nomos chapters. some point in the panel, we were asked about when we knew we wanted to go into architecture. I shared that internship, that moment where visibility, belonging, being able to see parallels of my own identity through another person changed my trajectory. After the panel discussion, I received a message from a student who I had connected with a few years before. Hey, just want to take a moment to thank you, because when I was first introduced to you two years ago, you were that first female, openly LGBTQ architect.

A For me, even though we only met

F briefly, that had a huge impact on me. While coming out at any point to any person is something I may never become fully used to, it is something that is not unfamiliar. To hear these words from another, to hear a small moment in their story and the impact visibility had for them, is something I never expected.

A It hit me at my core.

F Reflections of the past collided with another's moment in the present, and I could

A not help but wonder why.

F Why had the visibility of LGBTQIA architects not seemed to have changed? And then how? How does that change occur? How can the way I show up be a part of that change? How can visibility through storytelling change not just minds, but policy, practice and the profession? These were questions I could not shake. They've become a catalyst to not just sharing my story, but creating the space, the opportunity, the connections and community to share the stories of others. Because maybe, just maybe, that person wondering if who they are has the space to be because of where they are or who they are surrounded by, might just look up and see this profession and the opportunity we have to be a part of creating the world we are surrounded by is the space for them.

G My name is Rajesh Karnik. I usually go Bhairat so most people couldn't pronounce it correctly. I'm an architect at Gensler and the founder and past president at Build out alliance, which is a non profit that advocates for the LGBTQIA community within the building design and construction industry. I was born in Mumbai, India. Art and architecture has been in my family. My mom is an artist and my dad had his own architecture firm. Becoming an architect is something I always wanted to be as a kid. So I did my undergraduate studies at the Academy of Architecture, Mumbai and after working in India for a year I moved to the US for grad school.

G I planned to work here for a couple of years and then moved back to work with my dad and eventually help him run his firm. But since I'm gay, until a few years ago it was illegal to be gay in India. My moving back did not go as planned. Growing up I never thought I would come out, but when I moved to the U.S. i gradually did. However, I didn't see many out professionals. So the first couple of years I was back in the closet and had to start coming out again. Nowadays there are quite a few out architects, but there are a lot of ones who are either not out or prefer to keep their queer identities separate.

G Separate from their straight passing identities. On the construction site, there is even more pressure to adhere to the norms. I've never been an activist and still don't consider myself one, but I believe there's a strong reason to have visibility for the queer community and to advocate for our community. With the current political climate, we all know need to do our part for advocacy and to educate people about our community. One of the ways I've been doing that is by forming or leading employee resource groups in firms that I worked at and by being one of the co founders of Ballard Alliance. We cannot talk about advocating for the community without talking about the intersectionalities between gender identity, gender expressions, sexual orientation and race. I always feel that me being gay is obviously third place to my race and me being an immigrant, so I definitely need to prove myself at my work a lot more than a straight white guy. There's always a need to get over my imposter syndrome and fight the unconscious and consciousness biases that exist in the industry.

G Over the last few years I've met a lot of South Asian queer individuals in the industry who have come up to me and said they have never thought they would meet someone who looked like them and never felt that them being queer immigrant people of color would ever lead them to be successful in the industry. This is something that I always felt when I entered the profession and want to keep providing the visibility for them and for the rest of our community.

B From the very beginning of the podcast, we launched an Equity, Diversity and Inclusion series aimed at bringing stories like these to the forefront of our profession. These stories aim to teach, inspire, and engage listeners in conversations they otherwise may not have access to. To help us lead the discussion, we've invited Sarah Nelson woinich to facilitate the conversation with our guest speakers. Sarah, thank you for joining us. Dedicated to advancing equity, diversity and inclusion and visibility of LGBTQIA architects, architecture, adjacent and design professionals, Sarah is the founder of Pride by Design. As a project Architect with HKS Inc. In Atlanta, Georgia, Sarah's professional practice focuses on commercial, mixed use and multifamily markets, while also amplifying and engaging HKS's justice, equity, diversity and inclusion work. Sarah has served on the AIA Atlanta Board of Directors and currently serves as the AIA Young Architects Forum Advisory Committee Community Director.

B Welcome, Sarah.

A Thank you so much, Jeanine and Evelyn for the opportunity to join you all in this conversation. Thank you to all who are listening and to the three others I am joined with today for your time, for your energy and your visibility. Let's start with a round of introductions. Kay, can you kick us off?

E Yes. Hi, my name is Kay Kacmerek. My pronouns are they, them, and. I am an interior designer at Methune, which is a Seattle based interdisciplinary architecture firm.

A Great, Rajas, let's go to you next.

G Hi, I'm Rajas Karnik. My pronouns are he, him, and his, and I'm an architect at Gensler. I'm also one of the co founders and past president at Build out alliance, which is a nonprofit organization that promotes and advocates for the LGBTQIA community within

H the building design and construction industry.

A Thanks so much, Rajesh. We're really glad you're here today. And then, Bo, can you close us out?

D Yeah. I'm Beau Frail, an architect with my own consulting practice, Activate Architecture, and I'm also a project architect at Foxfox Studio. I've been involved in a few EDI related groups, including helping launch LGBTQI alliances at AI Austin and now more recently at AI New York.

A Fantastic. Thanks so much, Beau, and thank you again to the three of you. I'm really excited and energized by this conversation today. As of the day, we are recording Practice Disrupted has now recorded and released 116 podcast episodes, the Last Voices from the Future of the profession episode highlighting LGBTQIA professionals was episode 16 recorded in 2020. Since then, major legislation such as Boxton vs Clayton county has passed providing protections against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. Local alliances within the AIA in Dallas, Austin, Boston and Georgia, as well as New York, as Beau just mentioned, have come together in advocacy and community. The AIA has expanded the definition of gender identity within demographic report. NCARB has incorporated pronoun usage into profiles, and recent reporting from Gallup indicates that nearly 20% of Generation Z respondents identify as LGBTQIA.

A And this is only to name a few things in three short years. Yet at the same time, the number of anti LGBTQIA bills and legislation introduced each year has not only increased in quantity, but in proposed policy to not only limit but erase equity and inclusion for LGBTQIA people, particularly those who are transgender or non binary. This is a time when those newest to the profession not only statistically encompass a broader spectrum of gender identity and sexual orientation, but those currently in the profession and in the communities many work and live in wonder if everything from health care to recognition of authentic name and identity will remain inclusive and equitable. This conversation and the inflection point that our communities and the profession currently stands at represents not just challenges, but immense opportunities to continue moving towards more joyful, just equitable and inclusive futures. So to start our conversation today, I'm curious to first take a step back and hear from one another in listening to each other's stories. Any takeaways that anyone would like to share today? And this is open for anyone to jump in on?

H Sure, I can go first. I mean I was listening to bo's story about having designing a center. Was it an LGP center or something? Forgot exactly what it was. But having a group of architects that are just LGBT QIA identifying, I've never seen that before and that's just like it was just like, wow, I wish I could have been in that room to hear about what people have in terms of ideas. I've seen a lot of projects that are designed like the AIDS memorial that was designed in New York and like the team was all cisgender straight people and they never really felt the need to take into account LGBTQ voices. To see something that was designed and with LGBTQ architects together, that was pretty inspiring.

A Yeah, I definitely agree Raj. And I think one thing that really stood out for me between I think everybody's stories was really this overlap in this intersection of design and your identity and your sexual orientation and kind of how those have Increasingly, and over the course of your lives in your professional practice, really started to come closer and closer together and not even just intersect at these tangential points, but really actually become intertwined. And I thought that that was really impactful. I remember there was a question in a queries survey a couple of years ago that, you know, asked, who's your queer design icon? And at that moment in time, I was like, well, I don't really know. It's the one or two people that I'm able to look around next to me and kind of see where they sit. But I think really to start to hear just between the three of us, that that tide is continuing to change and shift and the visibility is shifting not only in who people are as people, but who we are as designers and what we are able to bring into the profession and our communities and

D the work we're working on.

A I think that really stuck out and resonated to me on how much of a shift has occurred.

H And it's really interesting the way you said about the queer icons, right? It's like a lot of, like, iconic architects that we actually look up to who have been queer, actually were closeted and are racist. So we really, even though we may might like their work, we cannot really give them the respect for who they were as people.

A That's a great book. Go ahead, Bo. I'm curious your thoughts.

D Yeah, Well, I think from listening to everyone's stories, I think what. And it really is an undercurrent, I think, with just LGBTQI plus queer people in general is sort of the struggle. Right. And I don't want to put the struggle and not connect it to the joy. But I think we start with a struggle because coming into who we are, like, I was really appreciative, you know, Kate, talking about mental health struggles. I mean, I definitely resonated with that struggling. And I feel like, because I was coming out while I was in architecture school, you know, it's kind of like reconciling who I was to what I was doing and when will those things intersect, which happened much later in life. And I thought it was really beautiful too.

D Like K, you said it's really about a radical act of self love. Right. When we get to that point where we're accepting of ourselves, we went through the struggle. And I think when you were saying, if we can make at least one person's life more comfortable, my first thought was, well, at first, it's like, it's our life that we're doing that or more accepting or you know, we do that for ourselves first. And then like you, you know, every. Even Sarah, how you found. Saw that one person who is out in architecture. You're that first.

D Right. Maybe that's your first queer icon, perhaps. But the. Yeah. Seeing that it's such a beautiful synergy that we can build on one another. And I think that's why when we're in those rooms with other LGBTQI architects and designers is powerful. I think intersectionality, like Raj talked about, is so important as well, because. And I've seen this, and I think we.

D I'd love to talk about privilege during our time here together too, especially for those of us who are cisgender and white, because we struggle as we're building these communities and groups to make sure we're inclusive and to make sure people feel invited, because especially groups like the AIA haven't always and still aren't reflective of the community at large. And so, you know, I think there's a lot of dismantling we need to do and rebuilding and restructuring. But that. That resonated with me a lot too, Raj, because all the groups I've been in, even the design competition you were talking about for the LGBTQ center, getting people. We had to be really intentional to get and invite people who were non white because it. Otherwise, they may not show up because they see it like, oh, who's organizing it and who. You know, if we just invite the typical architecture groups and people, you. We're gonna.

D We might end up with a homogenous. Likely to end up with homogenous groups. So I think intersectionality and. And intentional inclusion is key to helping to break pathways into these spaces.

E So how I met Sarah, and now all of you. Sarah is the catalyst of my entire life. Without Sarah, I'd be nowhere. We are working on. It's become a very large research project that I didn't anticipate it growing the legs that it has, but we're studying the relationship and really thinking critically about the relationship between gender and the built environment. And gender inherently cannot be untangled from race. It cannot be untangled from ability. And so really critically questioning this addiction to whiteness through gender.

E And we have a lot of limitations. There's two of us on this team. We both identify as white. We live in Seattle, so there are communities of color here, but the access into. To really, like, have deep discussion. There are a lot of barriers here, which makes sense because Seattle has a really violent history with systems of oppression, particularly racial systems of oppression. And so it's something that we're hoping to. Once this next phase is done, like, what's the next step to looking at it through a different perspective? You know, we're very honest in saying this is a Western perspective.

E It is kind of like looking at it through a lens of whiteness and our understanding of gender through that. And it's a step in a direction. But we. No, it's not the only step. Like, there's a lot of steps that have to happen. And I see that a lot in architecture in general is this idea of who is an architect and who belongs in spaces. And when we look at it through a gendered lens, it's very much, you know, we think of pale male and stale is my go to phrase for who's in architecture. And so just through this gendered lens of, like, I mean, sometimes the conversation is we don't have even, like, the diversity in, like, a binary gender lens.

E And now we're coming in being like, hey, my trans body exists here too.

D And it.

E We face not only kind of, like, hardship from, like, cisgendered men, but now cisgendered women kind of come at us too, being like, you're taking my space. And I'm like, I just want this, a tiny little grain of sand on the island to stand on, like, instead of just constantly treading water in open ocean, like, I can't swim just in life and in this metaphor. So please just. I'm not asking to take away from you. I'm just asking you to think critically about your gender in this space. And so as a trans person in architecture, I'm the only openly trans person at my job. I know. I have now met one other trans architect in Seattle, which was very exciting.

E And there's just, you know, not a lot of us. And it makes entering into spaces really scary and difficult. And I'm hoping that this research helps to just kind of broaden people's idea. Like, even if you just take your own moment to, like, self reflect and say, huh, okay, here's the ways that I perform gender. And that feels right to me. That feels good. Like, I'm definitely a cisgendered man. Amitzvah, I'm so excited for you.

E Like, that's really, really great work, because then it makes it easier for you to understand me. And that went off on a tangent, but that was my 7am thoughts.

C I love that.

A And you, to be fair, Kay, give me way too much credit. The work that you are doing with designing beyond the binary is amazing. And I simply have just had the Total privilege and opportunity to sit back and listen and continue colliding and connecting through what you are doing. So it is me who is absolutely sitting in the seat of total opportunity and awe. So thank you. I am curious because I think a lot of what between you and Bo and Raj, all three of you have really kind of talked into privilege and rebuilding and restructuring and how there is this time and this choice that kind of the profession as a whole sits in to say we can stay in this moment in time and maintaining the status quo, or we can make a choice to step forward and to something different. And I think the three of you are actively engaged in that right now. But I'm curious whether through the lens of the work that you are engaged in, as well as through the lens of kind of the role of architecture and design in general, maybe kind of zooming out and really talking about what the role of architecture and design in designing an equitable future for all looks like and means for you.

E Yeah. So I can take a stab. From my perspective, I have always looked at architecture as a tool used by systems of oppression to create difficult, barriered spaces. Because that has always been my experience with architecture. Like, I had no desire to go into this field. I was a hairstylist, I was a teacher. It's the queerest field I know. Like, everyone is.

E I'm pretty sure it's like 98% LGBTQ community in that. Because I always looked at, you know, architecture and design and built spaces are just really rigid and they don't allow for self expression or unique ways to make things unless you really go out of your way to put yourself into that space. And, you know, queering space has always existed and it's a beautiful thing, but why do we have to. So why does is it so hard and we have so little spaces to do that? But just that the same side of that is if architecture could be used as a tool to oppress, I believe that it can be used as a tool for liberation just as easily. We've seen it work. We know we can do it one way. We can definitely regain control of that and really critically reimagine what our spaces could be. And now that we're starting to have all these beautiful, varied, diverse, unique perspectives starting to come into architecture, we need to get out of their way and say, yeah, you know what, let's try something new, because this isn't working.

E So I see architecture as one of our biggest tools to creating a more equitable environment for people. Because if we spend, you know, 90 something percent of our lives inside, then the people who are building those spaces should represent the population in which we are. So it should be really diverse. And it. I like to look at architecture now that I have a better relationship with it. It took a while, as this is an act of resistance. It's an act of joy. It is an act of even the smallest victories.

E When I can convince someone, like, hey, you know that little sign that's like half triangle dress, half pant leg? That's horrible. Like, don't do that. Even those little small victories, I'm like. I'm like, yeah, okay, now the next time, you know, a trans person walks in, they're not like, oh, wait, am I supposed to be wearing, like, the half. I'm just half of each. Like, you know, these little things make a difference in people's lives. So, yeah, I think architecture has such a great potential to make a difference in someone's life. And it's now the call to action for us to say, you know what? I am going to do the hard thing.

E It's not easy, and I'm going to make some waves, and that's okay. And I am okay being known as the loud person at my office, and I'm okay being known as the person that is not gonna put up with your whatnot. And I'm excited for the future because I'm starting to see more people put their foot down and say, like, actually, we're not doing that that way anymore.

A Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that call to action, I think, really resonates. And it also starts with that acknowledgement to begin with, which I think kind of Bo, earlier, when you were speaking about privilege, like, acknowledgement and privilege kind of really have to be at a critical juncture and a starting point for many people. And so I'm wondering, Beau, if you maybe can kind of take us on continuing to tease out the role of architecture in designing an equitable future, but also how acknowledgement and privilege is really a place of beginning in that.

D Yeah, that's a key discussion. And something that Kay said too, I think, made me think of community engaged design, and really about how we're taught, how the profession is designed and taught to us and how we're supposed to act within traditional boxes. And so I really like the idea of, like, hacking the system to produce the best futures for ourselves, or dismantling the system might be a better word to use. And I think there's a lot of depending on, I guess, where you enter the profession and kind of your trajectory in it, you can really be at a place of affecting it if, you know, based on kind of your privilege in those spaces. So I think about, like, maybe my path in the AIA was a little smoother than other people who might be met with. With bias and prejudice. So when I'm in an AIA space, for example, this is just kind of a minor example to share. Like, when we.

D When we start talking about, like, who are our keynotes, who, you know, who are going to be the chairs of these committees. Are we being inclusive? Are we. And that takes. Can take a lot of work to get everyone kind of seeing things in that lens. But I think it's an iterative process, and I think it's difficult, too, like when you want to be an advocate or an activist to try to change these spaces. We want to see the change now and for valid reasons. The change should have been there yesterday, but the unfortunate reality is, in bureaucratic systems, the change is slow and it's frustrating, but I think we can still look at the small steps as victories towards our larger goal and commiserate. Yeah, I think there's roles for, for both, but I feel like we're in a.

D We're in a period of. Of societal revolution, and I think it's important to continue pushing the envelope. And so I'm always. I always love it when someone comes in and they're like, well, why doesn't. Why don't we do it this way and think about it this way? And. Because I want to be challenged, too. I want to feel, you know, beep. Be, like, uncomfortable with where I was thinking things, because that's how we grow.

D Right? Like, just how I'm. I'm okay with someone being uncomfortable with, you know, gender identity and sexuality. Like, you're. You're on. You may be uncomfortable discussing this, but I think that's an important part of the process. Right? We. You being uncomfortable for a few days, weeks, or however long much time you need to process that our existence is valid and we deserve love and respect and to navigate spaces safely is worth the time and effort. And I think there's a huge onus on.

D And this isn't just about. I think when we talk about privilege, I think we're also calling in our allies who are in these spaces and who have, you know, whether it's the local president or the local firm owner, there's a huge opportunity for allies to show up and not have it be performative. Like, I'll use another example back in. I think it was in 2016, when the first, you know, bathroom bills were being discussed in North Carolina, I believe, and they were. And all the conferences were pulling out of the state saying, we're not going to, you know, this goes against our values. And AIA's leadership conference, one of their conferences, did that as well. But today, there's bathroom bills all over the country and worse and just as bad legislation happening against the trans and larger queer community. But you don't see the same step up from organizations, including aia, saying, oh, we're not going to host our conferences in these states.

D It gets to a point where actions, you know, five or so years ago seem performative, and it's not really stepping up alongside the queer community when we really need allies and advocates the most.

H I think I echo everything that Kay and Bo said. I mean, the thing is architecture, basically, we're kind of designing and building the world around us. And so it's imperative that we, as architects, make this world a much more inclusive world. And it's just something that it's beyond just our allies and the straight people in the world. Thinking about it, even a lot of people who identify as LGBTQ do not even understand that or want to talk about that. They feel that, hey, everything is great. What is it? Like, this world is not gendered. And I've been through my journey on that as well.

H Like, remember, like, around, like, 10 years ago, somebody brought up the topic of discussing what queer space is. And a lot of gay men, me included, was like, I don't understand what queer space is. And we were like, oh, I don't know. And so it took us. I think I had to take myself on a journey to really read about it and, like, listened to people instead of just dismissing any of these ideas that were coming up, like, a long time ago. And that's a journey that all of us, including everybody who is queer, need to be listening more and just not talking about who we are. Because as a gay man, like, as talking about privilege, as a gay man, as a cisgender gay man who has been successful at what I'm doing, I have the privilege as well. And I need to make sure that I recognize my privilege and use that privilege to make sure that everybody around me, I'm able to help them get to where I am.

H We got to pull everybody up with us.

A Yeah, absolutely. I had a conversation fairly recently with someone who had come into kind of their own awareness of realizing that, and I don't remember if it was on gender or if it was on sexual orientation. But this individual realized that for most of their life, it was something they never had to think about. And then they were having a conversation with a colleague in a peer who was like, I think about this every single day because almost innately, I have to. And I think there was kind of this, like, this collision and this, aha. Moment to realize. To recognize that this individual, you know, had never recognized or realized that this was something that they had to be aware of. And I think that was that collision in that moment of realizing their privilege in how they exist as a professional and how they exist in design.

A And I think it was really one of those incredible moments to just see somebody's own journey and development, see kind of where they could be in just that small step forward, to recognize, wait a second, I might not be aware of this, but somebody else might think about it every single day because of how it impacts them. I think that really, really spoke to me to kind of hear and see that directly from this person. So I think maybe to kind of keep on. Keep on a little bit of a theme that was mentioned. I wonder if maybe we can go in and talk a little bit about allyship and kind of continue that thread of how both individuals and organizations can be better allies to the LGBTQIA community.

D You know, I remember hearing. I was at a poetry reading one time and somebody performed a poem talking about, like, having an ally card and that your ally card could be revoked if you're not like, living up to the, you know, your values that you're saying you're going to actually step in. And I think with allyship too, I'll just leave a little note, and then I want to really hear from others, but allies that there's a lot of intersection here as well.

A Right.

D And when I think of the intersection of, like, how do we get to just inequitable futures for LGBTQI plus people is. Is the same direction we need to be going for equitable and just futures for people of color and for women, like the. It's. It's not like these are all divergent places to end up at. It's. There's a convergence and like a. There's a synergy. There's just like a co.

D Laboring towards these spaces. And so, yeah, I just want to put that into the mix because it's not these kind of separate vats we're working in.

A Yeah, I like that as a visual bow, because I think it also really reinforces allyship as a continuum and that it's. It's not a Single time of the year. And I think that there's amplification that is definitely appropriate throughout any course of the year for any identity groups and any individuals. But I think really allyship is a continuum to say there is a constant step forward and a constant movement in a direction of, towards that just and joyful future. And whether that comes in the form of education, whether that comes in the form of outreach, whether that comes in listening, in making changes to policy and practice and business models, I think that there is always this continuum of allies, allyship that just continues to build and improve and work towards that just future.

E Yeah. One of my favorite moments of allyship I experienced at my job was I had a co worker after a meeting come up to me and like check in with me and was like, hey. I was uncomfortable with what was said there. Like, are you okay? And I was like, it didn't even dawn on me because it just happens all day every day. And I'm like, oh, right. Oh yeah, that's messed up. Like, I kind of forgot. I'm just so used to being just kind of like, this is my norm.

E And they were shocked, like to their core. They were like, wait, oh my gosh. Yeah, like, you probably deal with this all day long. And we ended up having this like 45 minute long conversation in the little hallway leading to the bathrooms, which was such a fun place to have it because people kept coming in and out of the bathrooms as we were talking about like gender equity, which felt very topical. But it was such a beautiful moment for me to just have a really authentic, honest conversation about it. And you know, this individual didn't maybe know the tools. And they were like, okay, well, like, can I, can I ask you these questions? Like, what do you have the, the space to answer these questions? Checking in and just saying, like, okay, I understand better now why this maybe doesn't like affect you the way I thought it was going to because you're so desensitized to it. What can I do next time? Like, what makes your lived experience easier? Like, should I call out in the moment? Should I have a conversation afterwards? Like, you know, that kind of checking in.

E Because I think sometimes that immediate call out culture puts me at risk and makes me feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, that conversation doesn't always have to happen in a large group of people. Especially if it's not like targeted hate speech. Maybe it's just someone that said something without thought or maybe didn't understand what they were saying as being like, inappropriate or a microaggression and that is the kind of allyship that I really strive for at, like, within my own teams. But just kind of, like, the word of advice I'd give to people. It's like, I'd rather you just check in with me if it's something directly related to me, but not necessarily you. Like, you're showing up for me and meeting me where I need to be met. And it was a beautiful example of, like, oh, that there are really great allies here and who want to really help each other.

E And they know that I have their back. I know that they have my back. Like, we're gonna amplify each other's voices because they also hold a marginalized identity too. So we're there for each other. And I think, just like Beau was saying, that amplification of everyone is so important. It can't just be one. It's. We all have to come together in a way.

H Allyship also probably needs to go beyond the part where it's in front of us or next to us. Like, even when I am not there in person with an ally, I would love if that person actually went out and, like, was my ally in front of other people who are not allies and kind of help spread the word around. An example is of a friend of mine, and she had organized a panel discussion for, like, women. And she reached out to me. She's like, hey, I have this panel discussion of women, but, like, the part we're missing is a trans woman. Because why would I have a panel of women without including a trans woman? I was like, that is a true ally who actually thinks about these things beyond when I'm around her. And at the same time, we need to keep. Make sure that we invite allies into our world as well.

H That there are a lot of LGBTQ employee resource groups that we have in firms, and, you know, a lot of those end up being like, hey, this is a bunch of LGBTQ people discussing issues. But we need to invite other people into it, our allies into it. We need to be more of an inclusive group instead of exclusive out there, because sometimes while doing certain things, we exclude people who want to hear more from us, want to be there for us. You want to help us in whatever way they can. So we just need to keep all those things in mind.

D Yeah, I just wanted to say that, and I saw this posted on Trans Day of Visibility.

C That.

D And I think this is a really important message, both for our LGBTQ community, but also especially for our allies, that you can't increase visibility. It's important to increase visibility and to increase safety at the same time. They can't be separate. So if you're increasing visibility but the spaces aren't safe, that's actually harmful. Now you have increased visibility to people who are also prone to harmful actions or words. And so they have to go hand in hand. And what this looks like is we need actions, action oriented goals. I think the value statements are great, it's a great place to start.

D But it's similar to like a lot of companies when they had Black Lives Matter statements. If they weren't followed up with actions that they were taking and that they were committed to taking over the short and long term. The value statement by itself sounds hollow and performative. So we really need an increase of visibility as well as an increase of safety, which includes spaces, which includes how we talk about and who's in the room talking about these things, making sure we're being inclusive, the queer community. And yeah, so that's I think a really important takeaway for allyship.

E Yeah BO that's something we talk a lot about in our R and D. When we go out into the community, we do a lot of different community engagement like talks and they're always open to the public. So we get a lot of non architects and designers that come to them as well and a lot of designers. So it's this really beautiful blend of community. And one of the biggest things we want people to take with them is this understanding of when you, when I am like put on the pedestal for the month of June being like, look, we have a trans designer here. I'm like, that's super scary. And you know, I have been physically attacked in space. Like I have been like harassed for going into bathrooms and like I don't feel comfortable going places.

E And this visibility without legislative change, this visibility without safety and culture change. And like for me, a lot of this memorization of pronouns, you're not memorizing, you're re looking at your own relationship to gender. Because if you just memorize a pronoun, you're not really seeing me differently. Like you're still seeing me the way that society has kind of trained you to look at me. And you're just trying to memorize. And that's when people make mistakes because they're not unlearning their idea of what social constructed gender is. And so we really, that's a point we are always trying to hit home of, like, yeah, you can amplify our voices, we need that. But also, and please create safer spaces, like Please fight back on harmful legislation.

E Like, the more visible I am, I become very aware of the fact that, like, that kind of puts a target on me and it makes me nervous. And, like, I'm very, very fortunate to live in a city like Seattle. I could not be doing this work back home in Chicago or Milwaukee, where I grew up. So, yeah, the safety visibility also has to come through legislative. And architects, I think, have a really big role in creating and pressuring legislation. Like Washington state and Seattle. We still have very gendered restroom codes that are male, female, laugh counts, and even those are inherently gendered. But we as architects have the ability to make that change.

E And, you know, a lot of us have gotten really fancy at, like, skirting the code and figuring out, okay, well, how can I manipulate this code in order to make it pass but make it better? And if more people just kind of put pressure on our local legislation to say, like, no, we should change this, I think that would help alongside the visibility.

A I think it's really interesting because that keys in a lot to the fact that the traditional role of the architect is continuing to evolve and change, and it does not look the way it does today as it did even 10 years ago. And I think that really leans into architects as those who are truly embedded and a part of communities and a part of changing all of the communities and shaping all of the communities that we live in. And so I think, I wonder, maybe Beau or Raj, if you guys want to keep on kind of this theme and this question about what is the architect's role in engaging in and in advocating for change in policy, especially as it impacts not just our built environments, but the people who are part of creating our communities and our built environments.

G I feel like the role of an architect is continuously evolving. As architects, we're committed to the health, safety, and welfare of all people. We're always making sure that we are designing safe and healthy buildings. But what about welfare? And what about all the people, the community? So we need to start changing our design thinking through community engaged design that focuses on welfare and the community. Our profession is unique in that we get to meet a lot of people. Building owners, families, contractors, community organizations, city and state officials, a lot more people, right? So we need to engage with them, talk to them about our stories and experiences. They could be both professional and social. We need to talk to them about the need for gender neutral restrooms.

G Talk to them about queer spaces, about the correct nomenclature for spaces that are gendered and that are not exclusive. Talk to them about inclusivity Talk to them about how we need to change building code and that's how we get to change policies. Policies that are inclusive to all.

D Yeah. You know, when all this legislation and when we're talking about policies and even just going to, you know, AI A lot of AIA chapters, including national, have political action committees, so we can discuss that too. But before we discuss that, I want to get back to saying like, and this has been touched on a little bit is, you know, we. When you care about something, you want the best for it. So when you see people who are, you know, on one, maybe on the opposite side of where you are on an issue, a lot of times they don't know someone personally or they don't. They don't. Or maybe they do know someone personally, but they don't understand them. And so I think it's really important to say, like, you know, like, I love trans people, I love queer people, I love drag queens, I love so many things about the queer community.

D And I think that's a real important thing to share because I think we have to start there, right? Like there's. And like what Kay was saying about unlearning or restructuring our relationship. Like we're in the same way in architecture school and how we kind of go traditionally into practice and oh, I take this step, this step, this step, and this is how I practice architecture. Whereas maybe that's architecture with the big A or maybe that's like gender with the big G of how you are taught about it. Or, you know, it really starts with expanding our ability to care and understand other people. And with that said there, I think there's a lot of that binary thinking or that kind of like black and white thinking gets in, into especially in nonprofits like AIA or other organizational groups that say, oh, we have a specific purpose, we can only do this. And it's like, well, there's a lot of identity based groups within these organizations, whether it's queer women, you know, Latino groups. There, there are ways of, I guess, expressing your values and that you support these communities and then politically as well.

D So a lot of times the AIA may not make a political statement, but there is a route to advocacy in a lot of these groups. And there's things you can do, obviously. So I wrote something down when I was preparing for this. I feel like there's three levels of advocacy and care for our community. And you know, one of them is like that state and national advocacy that deals with legislation. Another, the second tier would be like, you know, coming down A step, the organizational advocacy, like at AI chapters and other organizations, maybe even at your firm, how your firm supports it. And then the more localized. And then the last one is the localized systems of care and support.

D And I think we need all three. And I'd love to see groups including the AIA making connections, establishing connections with groups that are providing localized systems of care, whether that be groups that provide LGBTQIA housing for youth and for older individuals. Right there. Housing. Right. It relates to architecture. So I feel like there's three levels, and the big one, the political, national and state politics, is one we need to focus on and need to have conversations with our organizations and their PACs about, because they've never advocated against these things. These are all relatively not new per se.

D But the torrent and the barrage of legislation I think is new in our kind of modern day sense. So I think it's crucial to have these conversations. And we've been having them with Texas Society of Architects and their PAC just recently. And it can be a struggle because they operate to advocate for architects. And you're like, well, what about our architects who are trans? What if they're being targeted? So it's going to make it so they can't practice in Texas. There's going to be no safe spaces for them in public to, when they, you know, need to navigate public spaces, they're, you know, what if they take away their health care, their right to health care? Can you really see a state without trans architects, without queer architects? What if, you know, they don't allow they, you know, revoke same sex marriage and you have to go to the next state over to get your marriage license? People have been losing projects because families are moving out. They want the best for their kids, they want the best for their families. We're losing clients, we're losing projects.

D So I think it is inherently connected to architecture and business, which is sometimes the route you need to present them with as well. Like, oh, it's a human right. But also the human right may be politicized and be polarized, but at the end of the day, we're talking about basic human rights, access to health care, housing, you know, discrimination free workplaces and organizations. So there's a lot we need to do there. And this conversation, I think, is a newer one. So yeah, I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this because it's kind of, we're just starting to navigate this, but I think going back to like making sure the localized systems of care and support are crucial too and that we're supporting them and maybe aligning our organizations. You know, what kind of architectural service might those groups need? Or can we uplift them? Fundraise for them? We can. That there's routes to supporting this work versus the kind of probably longer iterative process of trying to get our organizations to make a political statement or reorient their pack to fighting against this legislation and promoting pro LGBTQI plus legislation.

H The other thing I would add is, like, you know, like, a lot of times we talk about creating the architecture office as a safe environment. Right. For everybody. But then what we don't talk about is, like, what happens on site. Like, most projects, like, you've got, like, 20% of the time that you're doing the work in the office. There's another 80% that the architects are actually on the construction site, which a lot of times is not the safest places of work. How many times have we seen graffiti on the site? All the time. It's, like, beyond, like, the people who are actually working on site.

H Like, it does definitely make us as architects, very uncomfortable being there as well. Stuff, like things written on their sketches of stuff. It's like. And I know I have, like, whenever I've been on site, like, because I've been in that position, I will take a picture of that, add that to the punch list saying this is there. That way the owner knows that it's all on record that this stuff is happening on site. And it is for the CM to make sure that they have do get some action there because they got to close off that punch list thing.

G So.

H Or if I do put that in a field report, they're going to have to respond to it.

A I wonder, Raj, if maybe, kind of, since you had mentioned, in being on site and in recognition that architects don't just sit in an office, and I think less and less will continue to as the profession continues to define itself. Build out alliance captures and encompasses aec, the architecture, engineering, and construction industry holistically. And I wonder maybe if you have any observations or any experiences that you could share with regards to branching beyond architects from an organizational level and an organization that is advocating for and supporting LGBTQIA professionals across the holistic AEC industry.

H Sure. So, yeah, when Build out alliance was formed, like, this was like, around 2018, it actually kind of happened very organically because, you know, I was at a firm. We decided to march in pride, and we're like, okay, we are like 20 of us. We've got like this hundred people or 200 people who are allowed to march. So we just invited people and people through the entire march were like, well, why is there not something for the industry? So we kind of ended up forming what is now Build Out Alliance. And you know, the initial board was very much architecture focused. And then once we changed that, we kind of really made sure that we actually tackled the diversity aspect of. And the diversity was not just gender diversity, but it was diversity in like making sure there's representation from architecture, from interior designers, from people on site construction, mechanical engineers or electrical engineers or structural engineers.

H Because it's like getting everybody in the room. We were able to form a really great community that we can actually see what's happening around us. We can actually make sure we can make a bigger impact then we could all make in just one field or the other. And talking about intersectionalities, like having these conversations that we've had a lot of panel discussions, etc. About how all of us can work together as well as what happens on construction site. It has really helped us get a more stronger understanding. Yeah, I think right from the onset, right. We had like said that Build out alliance needed to include everybody on the site as well as people in the office because they are two different experiences.

H On site, where you have your white collar experience is great, things are usually very good. But on site, the blue collar experience is a completely different experience. So there are most people on the construction site who will always be closeted and there is no two ways about it because they see a lot of things on site which they know they're not going to be accepted. So they go into this thing and in a way they end up talking bad about our community because they feel like if they actually present as straight, they have a safer experience on site. So having these conversations really mattered for us. And listening from them and then advocating to different construction companies how and what they need to do to make a safer environment for everybody in our industry.

A I think that really speaks to kind of microcosms and macrocosms and the fact that they're. I mean this is just. It's such a complicated and yet beautiful tapestry of. And I think the recognition and I, many I find in architecture and design realize that we're never working in a silo. It's never independent, it's never just designers. I think an organization like Build out alliance really speaks to the fact that we are all interwoven together and hopefully ideally are all working towards a common purpose and a common vision, you know, such as building a building and creating a space that maybe was or wasn't previously there. I also think there is this uniqueness in acknowledging that microcosm, though, and that in the beautiful tapestry of all being together and all being connected, there are also individual and independent and unique experiences that come from that and unique sets of challenges as well as unique sets of celebrations. And I think we had kind of mentioned that when it comes to the various identities and intersectionality, and I think that's something like what a lot of the AIA alliances, that's a bit about what Pride by Design is taking and honing in on that micro cause of the challenges and the celebrations and how to say we are a bigger part of this.

A There also might be unique sets of challenges, celebrations, visibility, and storytelling that can all emerge from saying these two things can and should work together and be in the same space together to really holistically be able to celebrate the individual or celebrate one facet of the profession and of the built environment, as well as be a part of creating something bigger and something more. And so I think it's really exciting for me to hear kind of how Build out alliance began and the acknowledgement and the intersection and the celebration that comes from that to say we're. We're trying to make this better holistically for everybody involved in the built environment.

D Yeah.

H And I think, like, you know, it even ends up like getting allyship in there as well. Right. Because, like, you know, you like. As we know, like, everybody on site has your construction hard hat and, you know, you click our name itself, Build out alliance, like, usually is not like, oh, this is out and proud. It's a gay thing. Because the Build out word is such a prevalent word in the industry. So somebody who's got the Build out alliance sticker on their hard hat, you immediately, you're not saying you're not coming out, but you're starting to slowly build that community on site. Somebody else who knows about Build out alliance will be there coming to talk to you about it because they just know the word and they've us existing is a big thing.

H And one of the best ways that I could describe one was once we were marching in Brooklyn Pride, like, few years ago, and this woman just ran out of the crowd and she was like, oh, my God, why did I know you guys existed? I've always been looking for something like this, and it was just like, it melted my heart. But I'm glad we were. We existed. And we're making this space for people to come together and share their stories and learn from each other and Just make it a better world.

A Yeah, I'm sitting with that. It's something I so firmly believe to my core that visibility through storytelling is a start. It's not the only one, but it's a start and a, a place that change can begin from, because then it's, it's not erasure, it's not ignoring and it's inviting somebody to maybe say, hey, you might not have considered this before, whether it is personally impactful for yourself, but that visibility, just opening that invitation for change to begin and the power in storytelling to really be that catalyst for that is something just so impactful and, and so fundamental to the core of kind of everything that I personally and professionally believe in.

E Yeah, it was such a core tenet of our research was that quantitative and qualitative data need to come hand in hand. And so we have a survey that we had, you know, a couple thousand people fill out about their own lived experience. But we also sat and interviewed people and chatted with them about their lived experience and their story and putting that alongside. Because how do you quantify a human life? Like, how do you take an experience and put it into numbers? You can't. And see a whole picture. And so trying to figure out, you know, how do we research differently? Like, when we were interviewing, we specifically interviewed trans, non, binary gender, non conforming individuals who also happened to be in ACE related fields. And so they kind of had like a lexicon of design, but also like a lived experience of transness. And it was such a beautiful way to talk about space.

E And some of my favorite quotes have come from these that I like wrote out and put on my desk as inspiration to know. Like, I'm not the only one out here who's dealing with these problems. But like, look at the joy and look at the beauty. Beauty and like the story that's being told and like the comfort of being able to sit with someone else who kind of understands what you're going through, I think is so important in the way that we kind of come together.

D Yeah, I will say, you know, talking about whether it's through Build out alliance or the storytelling through Pride by Design or, you know, even the connection, it's in the connections you're making in your, in your research. And even that makes me think of like, the joy I've had just from connecting with other queer designers and architects has been, I think, the biggest impact and takeaway or, I don't know, benefit might be a weird word, but of being involved in these spaces.

F Right.

D It's these Connections that are being made. And there is no directory of LGBTQI designers, at least that I know of. We're starting to make connections and understand, like, where everyone is and start. We're starting to create spaces, really, just within the last five years or less, where we can actually get together and talk about these types of conversations. And that's, I think, the beauty of the, you know, the LGBTQI plus alliances popping up in different AI chapters too. I think about, like, when I first graduated architecture school, and I was like, oh, let me get involved with AIA and looked at all the committees they had, and I'm looking for something that aligns with my values, right? And so if I was, you know, beau back then and I saw an LGBTQI plus group that's really powerful, I'd be like, oh, they care about conversations and topics related to that part of my identity. And that's something, like I said in my intro, queer and design used to be so far apart from me. It used to be like the queer was the repressed thing that I was struggling with and, you know, leading to self harm and that difficult struggle.

D And then design was the other part, and now they're merging and overlapping and intersecting, and it's really beautiful and powerful. I always feel, as including this recording included, I always feel empowered and energized when I get in a room or space with other queer designers. So, yeah, just thank you for that. And, yeah, I think. I think that's the spark of joy that I always like my soul communities. I feel like there's different groups that I feel I connect with, and I feel like this is one of my soul communities, right? The architects and designers who care about equity and justice for not just queer people, but for all of our intersections in groups as well.

H To add to that, I think a lot of the part, like, you know, a queerness for the. For the longest time had been associated with who you're sleeping with, and it wasn't really part of our true identity. There was a part that, you know, you kept your queerness back at home in your bedroom, and you never spoke about it. But our queerness defines our identity, and it is important for us to talk about that because that helps us show our friends and our co workers who we are as people. It makes us stronger designers, it makes us stronger architects, it makes us stronger people. And now that we can openly talk about our queerness and our gender identity, our gender expression, we can openly be who we are. We can be more successful at what we do.

A I am tearing up Hearing you say that, Raj and everybody. Because I think if you had asked me six years ago that I would be sitting in a virtual room with people from all across the country having this conversation. And for the first moment, probably in my professional career, not feeling my heart stop every time somebody said the word queer, I would have called you a liar and I would have said, no way. That's never going to happen. That can't possibly happen in this world or in this profession. It's why I left home. It's why, you know, I am not. I didn't move back to my hometown and I had supportive parents.

A I had something that I never, you know, many high school kids don't have. And I think, though, to sit and to be a professional and to be six years into practice and to realize, wait a second, like we are having this moment in this conversation and to see that since coming into my identity and welcoming my peers and my colleagues into who I am, I have as a person thrived and only just succeeded since that moment in time. I think it's amazing and it has me excited and it fuels me every single day to say, how am I continuing to show up to make sure that this is not just different for the four of us or the six of us in this room right now, but it's different for the 10% of the people in the profession and the 20% of new graduates who we hope are joining the profession. And like, this is your space as well. And the communities and the buildings and the spaces and everything in between that we create will only be better because you are here and you are here fully as yourself. And here's how we can continue to pave that way and make it here for you, make it a space to belong. I'm so thankful for this time. I don't know if anybody wants closing thoughts or if we want to do a wrap up question.

A I think kind of my wrap up question was a question about excitement or joy or, you know, we've been going through the narrative curve of we went deep into, deep into it and now we've, I think, come back out of it. So I just want to pulse check and see. Do we want to ask a formal question or does how kind of everybody just wrapped up feel like a good spot to drop?

H I think one thing I should add is like, in terms of allies that we've spoken about before, right? And about representation and how there's always some queer icons that we look up to. I think we need to talk about the fact that there are A lot of LGBTQ people in leadership who still don't talk about them being queer, they still are like, well, it doesn't really affect what I do at my work. And I've never had a problem being closeted and queer and having that part of me at home. I've still been successful in my career, so why do I need to talk about it right now? And I've had conversations with some of these people be like, no, you need to talk about it because you have been successful. Yes, you may have had the privilege that got you there, but you being there and visible, you being a visible part of the community, there are a lot of other people who are going to look up to you and be like, yes, that person's there. Now I can be myself because I see myself in that person. And that's why people need to be out and talk about their life so that others can look up to them and actually feel safer to be out.

A And based on what you just said, Raj, because I think that that is very, very important. And I think that that kind of brings back this tangibility to a lot of what we've talked about, which maybe that is something that I kind of want to wrap us up and close us out with, is kind of the tangible. And so I think to phrase that into a question to each of you, I'd be curious, what would you hope that those listening to this, this episode and who are joining us today really take from this? Whether they have just entered the profession or whether they are leaders in an organization or in their respective firm, what is one thing that you hope people can tangibly really hear and take from joining this listening and podcasts today?

H I think we can understand that things have changed over the last 10, 15, 20 years. Right? But we need to know and talk about the fact that even though things are changing for the good, at the same time, there are all these forces that are not comfortable with this change and are pushing us back down every day. With all the legislation that's happening in Florida, the fact that Pride in Florida is now canceled, the fact that I lost. Earlier this week, I heard that Target decided that they're not going to have LGBTQ things to sell in the front of House, it's like those kind of things. It's just like what is happening. So we do have a lot of things to still do, and all these things need to come from top down as well as from bottom up, like firms and leadership at the aia. And everything needs to do their part, and we need to do our part as well. Everybody needs to know that everything they do comes from a part of power.

H Everybody. Whatever small privilege we have, we need to make sure that we exert our privilege every day. And beyond that, we just have to be hopeful that things are going to change. Changes happening in schools, changes happening in small firms, changes happening in large firms. We're having conversations in all these locations. We're having conversations like this right now on this podcast. We're having conversations within the community and with friends. So we just need to keep up with the momentum.

H And because it is, at some point we are going to succeed. We are going to make this world a much more inclusive place. It is going to take time, it is going to have its challenges, but it's going to happen. And we just have to convince ourselves and everybody else just stay the course.

E I love that. I think that's so wonderful and a good reminder to keep moving forward in community. I would say if you're listening to this and you are trans or non, binary or gender nonconforming and going into this field or in this field, and you always feel alone, you're not alone. You have a new friend. Hi. Come visit me in Seattle. But, yeah, I always, you know, sometimes I feel very alone. And, you know, I'm sitting in this room with a bunch of beautiful people and I am not alone and neither are you.

E And even though sometimes it is very difficult to constantly be misgendered or the microaggressions, you also have such amazing moments of beauty and joy and community. So keep going. You can always reach out to me. We could start a trans pen pal ace alliance, which honestly, I think would be really cute now. I kind of want to make that happen. And, you know, even though it's tough, keep going. It's so worth it when you get to build beautiful spaces. Or recently Architecture magazine did a little tiny write up and I didn't realize it was physically printed and someone gave me the magazine and I just openly wept in the office for like 20 minutes.

E And then I went home and I framed it and then I cried some more. So know that even though it's tough, there are people out there who are also doing the work with you. And we're all in this together. And I hope that you don't get discouraged to a point where you want to leave. Like, keep, keep going. We're out there. Reach out to your community, Lean on your community. You know, I want to be there, to be, hopefully a beacon of light, but also just someone to lean on.

E When you're like, ah, man, this is really tough.

D That was so beautiful. Yeah, I feel like my message is like, you know, my, what I'm sending baby Bo back all those years ago. I just feel like, you know, where there is struggle, there is hope. Right. Where there is design, there is queerness and where there is maybe self hatred or denial, there is budding self acceptance and love. And so if I can find a way to love all parts of myself, I can extend that love to you and let you know that you are loved. Right. You know, as are.

D As RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else? And we're here in the profession, right? And we're not, we're not leaving. So we're, we're hopefully creating spaces and carving safer spaces for everyone. And yeah, connect with us. We, we have physical groups now that didn't exist five years ago. So there's ways to connect with your groups. We do virtual events too. So if you feel like you're in a small city and you're the only out visible person, you know, connect with our virtual panels. Connect with our virtual get togethers too there or, you know, if you're close enough to travel to one of the city's pride events, do that as well.

D There is hope.

A And I think the only kind of final thing that I'll add in closing is that if you are an ally or a firm leader or somebody who is here who wants to show up but isn't quite sure where to begin, also, please reach out. I think if anything, I would, I am always a person who would rather have the question asked and start to have a conversation than to work and operate from this place of fear because you don't know. And I think if anything, we all have opportunities to learn and to grow and to be together in this always and all the time. And I would absolutely love and cherish the joy to walk through this profession and everything that we do with one another instead of always staying separate and at a distance. So please reach out. If you are listening and have questions and aren't sure where to begin. There's always a place to start and sometimes it's just a conversation.

B Hi Disruptors. If you like the content from today's show, you can find all of our past episodes over on practiceofarchitecture.com podcast. Be a part of the conversation by joining us, our speakers and others in the community@practiceofarchitecture.com our social media handle is practiceofarc. That's practiceofarch. We'd love to hear from you, so feel free to drop us a DM and say hello. Thank you for joining us on Practice Disrupted, a podcast by the Practice of Architecture. Tune in next week for a new conversation on change in the profession.