MASS Design Group Business Evolution

A I'm Evelyn Lee. And I'm Janine Chastain. We're collaborating on curated conversations to explore how the industry of architecture is changing.

B Together, we'll find ways to create new solutions to current challenges while elevating the value of architects. Welcome to Practice Disrupted.

A Hello, listeners. Hello, Janine. Hi, Evelyn. Hi, disruptors. We are thrilled to welcome MAS Design Group to the show today. This is an interview that we've been wanting to set up for some time, and our guests today are Patricia Grewetz, ex AIA, who is the co executive director, and Ashley Marsh, RA, who's a senior director. Many have followed the work of MAS out of curiosity watching them successfully navigate mission driven work and leading into their identity as a nonprofit architecture firm. They were awarded the 2022 AIA Architecture Firm Award by the American Institute of Architects.

B Ex MAS Design Group was founded on the understanding that architecture's influence reaches beyond individual buildings. MAS stands for Model of Architecture Serving Society, believes that architecture has a critical role to play in supporting communities to confront history, shape new narratives, collectively heal, ex and project new possibilities for the future.

A They're a team of over a 150 architects, landscape architects, engineers, builders, ex furniture designers, makers, writers, filmmakers, and researchers representing 20 countries across the globe. Ex they believe in expanding access to design that is purposeful, healing, and hopeful.

B In this episode, we want to get into the business operations of MAS. We've known their mission and impact, but many of our listeners want to know more about how the firm operates and how you've been able to navigate growth and maintain adding projects ex and people across time zones. Welcome to the show, Patricia and Ashley.

C Thank you. It's great to be here.

D Thanks so much for having us.

A We usually kick things off by asking our guests to briefly introduce themselves. So if you don't mind, can you both share a little bit about yourself?

D Yeah. Thanks, Janine. Hi. I'm Ashley Marsh. I'm senior director at MAS, and much of my work centers around working with potential new partners in the organization. And ex and I focus on conveying how our belief in architecture's capacity to heal, animates everything that we undertake. A lot of my work is focused on ensuring that our ambition to ignite systemic Change in the built environment and the tireless work behind it, is well resourced and recognized. I'm currently based in San Francisco on unseated ex Ramaytush at the loading land.

D I'm an avid bikepacker. I'm a regular volunteer farmer at the largest agricultural site in the city, the Alameda Farm, which gives away all the that they harvest to their neighbors for free. And I spent most of my career working closely with organizations at an inflection point of change. And the journey that led led me to mass is a pretty wonderful one, and I'm really grateful for having had the opportunity to work alongside Patricia for the last 5 years.

C My name is Patricia Grewitz. I am an architect researcher, and I like to say that I'm an optimist. And I believe that design is ultimately an incredible act of optimism. And we work to envision a better world, one that is just and beautiful for all people and our shared planet. Ex and I have worked across the globe supporting nonprofits and community leaders in bringing their bold ideas for the future into reality. Ex as co executive director of MAS, I have the incredible privilege of supporting across our North American design studios. Ex I support the principles, lab leaders, and our staff to navigate how a design can be a tool to address critical issues ex public memory, disability justice, food systems, native communities, climate resilience, restorative justice. Ex It's really a privilege and honor to get to do this work.

B What's always been interesting to me is many people know that MAS is a nonprofit architecture accept our firm, but it's still not a model that people, technically, even young architects that are looking to start a new business have gone out and pursued. So why do we need a nonprofit architecture firm, and how have you guys been able to make it work in this space. And I know that's, like, a huge question to ask and start you off with.

C I think that's a great question. And it's really ex Part of the reason why mass is in existence is because we recognized that there was kind of a missing piece in the architecture profession. There was a missing piece in how we were serving communities. There was a missing piece in how we were serving organizations. Entire markets weren't being served by architects. It ex was kind of limited to, you know, the top 1%. And we really felt that there was a need to rethink the structure, ex not just of how we delivered services, but how we structured our practice. And so over the last 15 years, ex We have really aligned our practice model to one that allows us to leverage different resources, to leverage philanthropy, to leverage, different mechanisms within the nonprofit space to really expand how architecture can be a service.

A So I know that when you all launched the business, it was very much about demonstrating that there was a need and that you all could design a solution towards that need, but MAS has gone through such tremendous growth in the last, I would say, several years, but particularly in the last year. Ex and you've actually shifted your organizational structure from a single executive director to 3 co executive directors. Ex so, Patricia, tell us about that transition and what it means for the organization.

C As you mentioned in our intro, MASS stands for model of architecture serving society. And we were founded not by 1 person, but by a group of individuals who are really seeking a better way to practice architecture and to serve others. And we've really operated in this collective manner, in this collective way for years. And we saw the opportunity this year to have our organizational structure more accurately reflect how we practice and how the work gets done. And so with 3 executive directors, ex we now share the responsibility of governing the organization, and our collective structure, our leadership structure includes 19 and senior directors who are all incredible thought leaders and designers that lead critical parts of the organization. And so I think that this was really just a moment for us to kind of realign our model of of organizational structure to how our work was was happening and really kind of elevate MAS as a platform to celebrate the many different leaders that call MAS home. Ex And as for our growth, we have grown exponentially over the last 15 years, really from that handful of founders and volunteers working on our first project Embataro, Hospital in Rwanda to a 150 people that now work across disciplines and geographies and collectively represent over 20 different countries. And I really think our success has been rooted in our ability to evolve and iterate not just how we deliver our services, but how we structure ourselves.

C And so Alan Rick's one of our co executive directors, one of my ex Colleagues here often says that our longest running project is the design of our practice. And I really love that because it's It just helps us kind of settle into that as a constant, evolution of mass and really own that as something that, you know, we are designers here to create. And so, you know, I think this has meant that this year has been one of real transformation for us and one that we're continuing to adapt and evolve as we learn more about how the architecture profession should be working.

A When I've gone on your website and I've seen how many additional ex Team members have joined over time and how many different geographies they represent, locations, ex and issues in those regions. You all are spanning quite a large range of time zones. And to reflect. There's a variation in your projects from the Memorial to Peace and Justice in Montgomery, Alabama ex to the Munini District Hospital in Rwanda. These are incredibly different projects with different geographies, clients' needs, and I'm wondering how you all navigate that and what ties it all together.

C So I think one of the things that we've learned ex Really, since our our founding is that it's not just about the building. The buildings will have an impact on the people who occupy them, on the communities around them. And if they're really transformative, they'll have ripple effects ex beyond just the building itself. But we also really look for the design process to be leveraged to have an impact, thinking that it's not just about the product, but it is also about the process, and it can be leveraged as a force for good. And so I think what really ties all of our projects together is this fundamental pursuit of creating a design process that is equally as impactful and beautiful as the final project that results in a building in a space. Ex and so some of those tenets that we bring to the process are really about trying to create a more accessible architecture and development process. Many of the partners and communities we work with will only build 1 project in their lifetimes. They may be woefully underprepared for what it's going to take.

C And, you know, we can also all reflect as architects just about how confusing and convoluted and ex and honestly chaotic the architecture kind of process is and, like, all the jargon we use and how kind of complicated we make it for people to be able to understand how to navigate it. And and so, fundamentally, our processes, 1st and foremost, about trying to make it really transparent and accessible and really demystifying the architectural process for those that we're working with. Ex and we also try to tailor the process to our partners' values. A lot of our partners are leading incredible work in the communities they serve. Ex and so to have a kind of top down architectural process that they have to fit into isn't going to yield the results and have the impact that they wanna have. And so we look for ways in which we can adapt the architectural process to them. Fundamentally, every project we have has a mission. It's like the backbone of, like, what we do.

C And we identify those unique goals and the impacts that our partners wanna have through the built environment, and we call that the project purpose. Ex and it's really this, like, amazing thing that once you have that clarity of purpose of what you're trying to do, it builds consensus on the team. It's building consensus with, you know, the partner with the community, and people start to rally around this idea. And they're also able to then participate ex in creating the design solution because we're all trying to solve the same problem, and we're all trying to aim for the same purpose. And so it's a really lovely tool that we use across our projects that helps us really identify the specific need, the specific goal, and make the design decisions to leverage an impact.

D You also asked about our nonprofit structure earlier, and I think there's a tie here as well and that our nonprofit structure allows us to bring together some really unique coalitions, and we can seek collaborators in our work who are, you know, elsewhere peripheral, ex Where we're actually acting as, like, cocreators, in lieu of authors, and we're making these collaborators in our work now integral to impact. And I think that really just helps us transcend some of the traditional constraints of the architecture profession, creatively find ways to make projects that The market otherwise wouldn't support happen. And it also helps us, you know, this broad swath of people who've come to mass from all Different disciplines and backgrounds and geographies and histories is enabled by our nonprofit structure because it has really helped hire and nurture emerging professionals from around the world who might otherwise even just face barriers to pursuing design careers or being engaged in the design industry.

A I'm glad you brought up the team. I was gonna ask about how you organize internally around these projects. How many of your team members are remote, where the satellite hubs for your offices, how does that work, how do you create meaningful teams that are able to support these purpose driven projects.

C One of the things that we really learned early on is that in order to do our work, we needed to be proximate to it. And so we have established kind of studios that are, right now, in 5 different general locations. We have an office. Our largest and first office is in Kigali, Rwanda. Ex it kinda remains our hub of activity in Africa and on the continent. We then have studios in Poughkeepsie, New York, ex Santa Fe, New Mexico and Boston. And those studios kind of transcend and take and bring in folks from different disciplines, ex Whether that's landscape architecture, engineering, architecture. And as I mentioned earlier, we've kind of grown and evolved as we see the need of our partners and the need of the market expand.

C So, for example, in our Rwanda office, where we saw partners oftentimes having to rely on imported furniture or having lack of, like, locally available quality furniture available for the projects that we are working on. We decided to create our own furniture company and now have furniture makers who are working alongside local artisans and craftspeople, creating incredibly beautiful pieces of work that now are solid pieces of furniture in our partners projects. In addition to our studios that are kind of across geographies, we also have labs that we fund and are supported to take on real deep research and engagement on critical issues like deaf space and disability exist or public memories and memorials, and and that allows us to thread between those geographies to find similar challenges that we might see across studios and across the communities we're working in. I think that's one of the really powerful things about mass. And one of the exciting things in our future ex is not necessarily only understanding how to work in these different geographies, but actually starting to see the things that are very similar ex And the things we can learn from each other, what we can learn from our team in Rwanda, and bring to the native communities that we're serving in the southwest of the United States. What we're learning in Poughkeepsie, New York, working in a fringe city and what we can bring to some of our projects in the southern part of the United States.

B I wanna go a little bit deeper and off script on the next question about what type of what that means to building for building a firm culture too. You know, in all the places you listed, for instance, Ashley is calling in today from the Bay Area. So how do you it's one thing to bring the communities ex Together where you have your projects, but how are you bringing the firm together? And, Patricia, you mentioned, especially, the development of the people, and and how does that all come into play with such a global office.

D I think this is actually one of the places where some of our philanthropic partners play a really unique role. A lot of their support for our work doesn't go, like, maybe perhaps directly to, the design of a built project. Instead, goes to Things that we're doing internally in the organization to help us enhance a thriving culture and also to help us perhaps, like, navigate the realities of how complex ex doing this work can be and how much care for one another needs to be brought into the work and How much bravery and humility and the support that we all have to provide for one another as we do this very, like, different type of work that has different types of challenges and different types of communities and their lived experiences infiltrating the ways that we're experiencing the design process every day. So that has been, I think, a really powerful thing for us. Even some of the things that Patricia mentioned earlier, like ex We set a mission statement for a project. We learned that from one of our 1st funders who really challenged us to, make that a strong anchor in our work, and we adopted that methodology to make it work for a built environment. I think the philanthropic partners have been pretty amazing in allowing us some of the The extra padding and space that's needed in a practice that's trying to be a very transformative model of architecture.

B I was trying to I don't have my usual scratch paper in front of me, but it's interesting listening to you, Ashley and Patricia, the way you talk about the firm and your people. I think there's just vocabulary there that you actually don't hear coming out of a lot of other firm leaders. Ex Kind of brave, literally, the 7 words that you just rattled off, but, brave, humility. I think Humanizing is getting used more these days, but really talking about just what it takes to really build community. And I think so many architecture firms, ex The ones with good leaders really strive to build community, but they don't necessarily even use the same language that the 2 of you are using and bringing to this conversation.

C It's interesting to hear you say that because I think one of the things that we've initiated in the last year was really an intentional kind of creation of what we call our collective commitments, which are really like a set of statements and values that we all hold ourselves accountable to and hold each other accountable to, which is falling a lot of what, I think, Ashley just mentioned around both how we do our work, How we serve our partners and how we serve each other. And I think it's an important moment or was an important moment for for us just to reflect on that, having grown as fast as we have and having kind of weathered 15 years and also being in a place where, ex You know, we're constantly inspired by the partners that we get to work with and the communities we get to work in. And so we need to have those spaces where we are Intentionally taking care of ourselves and taking care of each other in order to continue this as not just, you know, a gap year of service work or as a summer project, but really as lifelong careers that we're hoping to create for our team and for those that want to join us in thinking differently about ex where there's value in the architecture profession.

A I'd love to hear from both of you if there was a particular ex moment or memory that you can share about when you knew that you were at the right place and that this was a place that you could succeed in your career. Because, Patricia, I know you've been there you've been there for long enough to see the firm evolve and be different things at different moments in time. So and then equally, Ashley, I know that you've been looking for a place that would allow you to thrive in the specific strength that you bring that's unique to our industry and strategy. So just curious if there are any anecdotes.

D Yeah. I I mean, gosh. I, yeah, I watched Mass in its, like, really early years as it was, like, forming the foundations of this model of architecture built serve society. And I felt like it was doing things that catalyze this agility and some of the things Patricia was mentioning about its ability to endure over these last 15 years. And from my perspective, it was largely because they were MAS was sort of retrieving alternative frameworks from different professions outside of architecture And then bring them back into the field of architecture and into the design industries and saying, like, we're gonna test these things out. We're gonna measure the impact of them.

C Ex We're not gonna be

D shy about designing and evolving and pivoting the practice where there were productive lessons being learned in the process. And ex My life, I think, sort of unfolded in a similar series of, like, iterative little loops. And I had my own set of alternative frameworks ex I drew on you know, you could name, like, Antoinette Carol's work with Creative Reaction Lab, reading Michael Porter's now ancient article on creating shared value, You know, meeting John Powell, following his work with the Othering and Belonging Institute, teaching at the Stanford d School, these were all things just like that were outside of the realm of Designing a building and detailing drawings. And I think they really, like, afforded me the space to stretch outside the bounds of traditional practice and have the courage take some of these little leaps in life that led me to mass, which about 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I guess now, I founded open hand studio while I was at a traditional AE practice and my own, like, entrepreneurial version of MAS and what MAS was trying to achieve. And after doing that, I kind of found that I needed to leap over to a strategic consulting studio to strengthen my skills working way upstream in the design process. And that's where I Also intersected with lots of people who are non designers, like anthropologists and quants and human factors researchers. And that, I think really gave me the confidence to leap over to mass in 2018 because I felt like I could actually tangibly make manifest all these intersections of these experiences and be, like I could be fully proximate to the work that was my passion and not have it be on the periphery of my day to day. And I guess what's amazing about that because mass and the and the work that we're doing is so integral to, like, my day to day and it's not ex On the periphery, I find myself, like, being able to be even more embedded in, like, the ways that mass wants to live its values.

D And then I can, like, ex I can center my energy a little bit more on caring for my loved ones, my friends, and my neighbors, and being in community where I'm at. And I can be a little bit more confident in reminding myself that creating the needed nourishment that myself and my team need when the moments are tough ex possible in a place like mass. And I can help myself move at the best possible speed I can offer, which is one of trust and Care and, again, the word nourishment, like, comes to mind in that moment. So I think that has been an interesting journey that just makes me feel so confident that mass is an enduring estimate to the possibilities.

C Yeah. I similar to Ashley, I worked outside of MAS for a number of years in a more traditional practice and ex Found my way actually through to social impact design through product design. So I was actually working on a small nonprofit project called Portable Light, which was cocreating ex Solar lanterns in Brazil, in Mexico with indigenous and native communities. And ex That project was was wonderful and was kind of this foray into understanding how design could be leveraged for social good. And at the time back in 2008, 2010, there weren't a lot of models of how that was being done at scale in architecture. And so I found myself really questioning how would I was learning and and practicing at the kind of tangible product scale could relate and scale up. And when I lifted my head out of my desk and looked down the road, there was mass design group, and And they were actively testing and questioning how we could be practicing with a more kind of human centered approach and how we could be thinking more about an impact driven model of architecture. And so my first project with MAS was the maternity waiting village.

C And ex I remember that being a really incredible and transformative experience in that basically, like, I joined mass and suddenly I was on a plane to Malawi trying to figure out how to help the Ministry of Health and a doctor from UNC named doctor Jeff Locanson figure out how to improve The lives of these mothers who were waiting for medical care. And I won't get into maternity waiting villages in particular, though it's one of my favorite projects that we've done. But I think there was this moment where I was on-site again practicing kind of this idea of what we call immersion ex Kind of immersing ourselves in the context of the work and really got to understand the needs of these mothers that were really being overlooked, Both in terms of what they were experiencing on the ground, but also in terms of how they experience care. They were there to receive care from a hospital, but they were completely dependent on their mothers, their aunties, their sisters to take care of them and to be a part of this broader experience of birth and the birthing process. And I knew at that moment that there was an opportunity to design something that could really serve Sim, but it actually took the bravery and the guts of the Ministry of Health extend of the doctor and the Gates Foundation and a lot of other people to take a gamble that design mattered and a lot of people who hadn't seen architecture do much for anyone before. And so it was this incredible moment being able to communicate the needs of these women in a way that shifted not just what was built on 1 project, but really shifted the attitudes and mindsets ex of our project partners and the policymakers who are gonna impact the lives of many more women. And it was that aim, I think, of ex of mass and of the model that we were creating and building to not just focus on the directing impact and outcomes of 1 project, ex But to think about what was possible if we thought about systems change and how we could really start to create those ripple effects beyond the building. Ex and for me, that was what really hooked me at Mass.

C It's when I kind of knew that I was in the right place. And I would say it's what continues to inspire me and connect me to the work is this opportunity. Whether I'm working on a project or whether I'm working now in this moment of a co executive director model is is that we are in pursuit of creating systems change. We're not we're not after small impact. We're after big impact. And and I think we're really set up as an organization to model that kind of curiosity and humility that might actually allow us to create something new and great.

B I have kind of a funny question for you too, after hearing about your career growth and projections and the opportunity that you see at Mass ex Now that you are where you are in your careers, what does the employee experience look like right now if I were a new grad ex joining mass. What is that like, and what can that person get most excited about in engaging with your studios?

C I I think this is a really fascinating question because I am learning so much from our staff about what their perceptions are of mass. Ex I think so many of us that, like Ashley and myself, that have been a part of the organization for a while or have worked in other more traditional practices ex can see a little bit what or more transparently what is different, or maybe we're a part of shaping it, and then when it was more of a a start up. And I think there is this perception of mass now because of our size and our tenure that we've got it figured out. And I think that is actually one of the biggest misconceptions. And, again, the reason for our success is our constant iteration and evolution. Ex and so this perception that that we have it all figured out sometimes is a shock for folks, and I think can be kind of misleading as to what it takes to actually try to do something different. And very much, very much, we are still a startup, still figuring it out and building the systems to actually make a different model possible. And so for some people, I think depending on what your expectation is, you know, you're brought in to number of the different studios.

C And I think we do offer folks an incredible opportunity to work with partners, to connect to the impactful work. Ex We also, for a number of years, had a fellowship program where we intentionally sought out young architects who are coming out of school, who wanted an experience practicing in an alternative model. And we realized through that fellowship that actually our entire staff wanted that fellowship experience. They all wanted the training. They all wanted the mentorship. And so over this last year and a half, we actually have created a department that we call process and learning. Ex It's our internal team that takes the kind of core tenants of MAS' practice, that learns from what's happening on projects across the globe, polls kind of best practices, polls people and connects them to resources, to tools so that we're constantly kind of offering ex additional kind of learning opportunities and really fostering that learning culture that isn't just for a select few, ex but it's for all of our team members who are joining. And I think trying to kind of fill the gaps in some ways of what traditional architectural ex Pedagogy is kind of missing as we think about how to serve society or how we think broader about how to embody even, you know, practices of accompaniment ex or how to make sustainable environmental choices that are as just and equally as just as some of the other design choices we have to make.

A Ex you're touching on so many great things, and I'm, like, resisting the urge to go down a rabbit hole on each of them. But I think you're right. Ex younger staff tend to come in with their assumptions into a firm about what that firm can offer, what that firm can be. And there's a lot of different ecosystems out there in terms of firm culture and structure, and sometimes those expectations aren't aligned. But ex I love hearing that you all are investing in the learning and development of all staff because I do think that that has been historically something that was missing, you know, in practice in the traditional sense, that is such an important thing for firms to invest in. Ex I wanna come back to talking about your business model because the idea of a nonprofit architecture firm is something that maybe not everyone ex is familiar with. So what does it mean to be a nonprofit architecture firm, and why is MAS a nonprofit?

D Well, I would say, 1st and foremost, nonprofits are perfect pathways for systems change. Right? We can do things market isn't ready for. We can demonstrate that a model like this is both urgent and possible, and we can leverage philanthropy ex As a creative act, we can tap into folks who want to fund our work, who share that belief that philanthropy can be more than just a monetary transactional experience, which I think is pretty amazing.

B How you get that funding and how that enables you to do do the more creative things that you just laid out.

D So Patricia mentioned earlier that we have some labs and some programs internally to the organization that may be different than what you might see in a for profit architecture practice. We have funders who we can tap into their funding resources to allow us to support those programs, which may not necessarily be possible in a traditional practice structure. We also can sometimes tap into philanthropy when we have a hunch that we're gonna be working sort of at the edge of practice and we might fail. And they are often very, very interested in trying to support us to that failure so that we learn and then we share what we're learning back with the industry. So that space for failure and learning, I think, is something that nonprofits are very, very interested in. I think it also allows us sometimes to stretch into places that I think a lot of practices want to go to but can't often do such as, like, evaluating the quantitative and qualitative outcomes of our projects. We have to do that to be accountable to our mission, but it also helps us improve our practice. Ex And it helps us help our partners if they do get the chance to build again, to have another project that has a spatial outcome, to learn from what maybe wasn't perfect on the project and to enhance the next project.

D I think the other thing that being a nonprofit allows us to do is to actually, like, challenge policymakers, challenge developers, challenging excommunities, and maybe as Patricia was alluding to, design educators to just think more radically, more equitably, explore sustainably about what the potential of the built environment is. And those are some of the risks or the potential, like, failures also that we can be involved in. But we can push that In ways that maybe maybe hard.

B A lot of what I'm hearing in your response is that the nonprofit space gives you ex A different entry point than for profit space into to projects and partnerships and implementation ex In a way, for instance, an RFP process where architects tend to enter in. My next big question then is ex And, Patricia, you alluded to this. A lot of these philanthropies haven't worked with design and architects before. So how do you even begin forming ex partnerships. And how did you do it in the beginning, especially when mass wasn't known for the work that they were doing now?

C Ex I think that there's somewhat of a running joke. I think when most architecture firms hear that we are structured as a five zero one c three nonprofit, which is that they're like, yeah, aren't all architecture firms nonprofits? Like, none of us are making a profit. And I I think that speaks to what many of us experience and struggle with, which is making the work that we need to do as designers valuable in the marketplace by which we are accurately paid for it and compensated for it. Ex and so being structured as a nonprofit ourselves allows us to access funders, individual donors, ex Foundations. That flexibility allows us to then go deeper and to do more

D than what

C a typical architectural practice can do. We still work ex and have fee for service work that is still like a backbone of what we do. We are not trying to undercut the architectural market or the architecture practice. We're trying to expand the tent. We're trying to show that there is real value in architects being involved upfront expand beyond opening day with partners to make sure that these projects are designed, built, and occupied in a way that has meaningful impact. The interesting thing about foundations is that there actually is quite a few foundations who historically have given and continue to give in the built environment. Oftentimes, they are looking for shovel ready projects because there is kind of a misconception, but maybe also a right conception ex that buildings are complicated, and sometimes they go over budget, and they seem to be risky investments for funders and even riskier investments for nonprofit organizations who Don't really know how to navigate the building process. There's volatile construction costs.

C Everything seems to cost more. There's ad services. There's unknown conditions. We all know that there's, like, huge volatility in actually being able to accurately scope and cost and estimate what a project is gonna take. I think for foundations, there has been a swing in the last, let's say, 20 years to understand impact more tangibly, to measure the impact of the work. And oftentimes, that means that it's easier to measure programs. Ex it's easier to measure how many people show up to an event. It's easier to measure how many flu shots we were able to deliver.

C Right? Ex so those kinds of investments, I think, are more straightforward and potentially seemingly more impactful than being able to invest in in a building, in bricks and mortar for a nonprofit or for a community. And so some of the work that we are doing is actually tracking the impact, ex trying to do impact evaluation in a way that proves tangible impact from the built environment, tangible impact on the design decision our team makes, ex intangible impact from the way in which we deliver the project, who builds it, where the materials come from, and bring that content to the architecture professions of not just mass benefits from understanding our value, but the whole architectural profession benefits.

A I wanted to ask about the client relationship and specifically in your various project delivery models. Have you seen that I'm sure there's projects where there's a champion for the project and they're they're trying to drive a specific ex deliverable, but are there projects that you all are working on where MAS has actually had a a bit more of an advocacy role in it feeling like ex you're also part of that stakeholder group. It's not the owner versus the architect, but that MAS is able to advocate on behalf of the project.

D Yeah. We I was actually speaking earlier to our ability to sort of bring together coalitions that are a bit unique and atypical. And ex Specifically in Poughkeepsie, New York, we had a a building in town that used to be the former youth center that closed. Ex And the community for a long time was looking for a solution to give you the place to be. And That project is now in design development and would not have come about had we not worked with a huge coalition of individual organizations across Poughkeepsie who we had gotten to know because our office is on the ground on Main Street in the city. Ex And we built this coalition. We built the advocacy, outreach work to the local leadership, ex Mayor and the county's leadership to say that these groups of people within Poughkeepsie believe this should happen, and we can help make it so.

A That's great to hear because I I feel like that's the dream for many architects is seeing a need in their community and wanting to make a difference or be involved in that process. And then I certainly see in many traditional practices that gets lost due to the ex relationships that exist between the owner and the architect and various stakeholder groups. So I guess we wanted to shift kinda into that PSI measuring impact and understanding you said you all are able to do the post occupancy evaluation to inform your, evaluation on the overall impact of the mission. How do you know when MAS is successful, and what is that measured by?

C I think there's really interesting impact measurements that we're able to take on individual projects, understanding, like, the environmental impact as well as, you know, the mission aligned impacts. We also look for educational opportunities. We look for educational opportunities as well as economic opportunities, and we also measure the kind of emotional impact of the work. And I think this is one of the things that MAS does really uniquely and and really necessitated us to create our own storytelling and narrative team, which is really the backbone by our film team, which is to really capture the stories ex of these projects, both the people that work on them and the people who occupy and and kind of own them and when where they sit. And it those stories are some of the most ex profound and compelling methods for communicating the power of design and the power of architecture to create systemic change. It's incredible ex what Ashley or I could say is the impact and how small that is in comparison to actually hearing it directly from the people who are actually experiencing those spaces. I think that, you know, for MAS as an organization beyond any one project impact, ex I think the thing that we measure is the influence that we're having on the profession. Being named the AIA firm of the year in 2022 is a huge milestone stone for us to be recognized within our own profession as not being kind of on the edges of the profession or being kind of this of nascent practice, but actually to be more seen as a part of the mainstream and to be creating a pathway for practice for others to practice.

C And I think that for me is, like, one of our huge metrics of success is to seeing other young architects, young leaders, and thought leaders, ex and Old as well, really getting behind this this methodology and shaping their own practices differently. Maybe not even in MAS's model, but in their own unique model that is is stretching maybe beyond what we would have thought was possible 15 years ago.

A I find it really rewarding when you help architects realize that they they can design solutions not only to buildings, but to other problems. Like we talked about earlier, the business model being a design problem. And the creativity in our field, once you unleash that into any design problem, is so powerful.

D Patricia talked earlier about how every project that we take on, we make a mission statement for it. We also, for every single project, create ex A set of impact metrics by which we will measure whether or not we have achieved that project's mission. So just to get down to, like, nuance of it, like, there are very distinct Impact metrics on a project by project basis that we tend to track that are unique to particular context, the situation, the people that the project will serve. And I think that's sometimes important for us to recognize. We've tried to think about these bigger, broader impact frameworks that could, like, transcend all of our projects. But Sometimes that when you make it that broad, you lose the richness of the actual stories of the people in the place where the project is created that ultimately are the people who whose impact the impact on them is what we want to be we want to know.

B Have you guys ever shared a project's impact report? I would I feel like that's something I'd be so interested in seeing. We have.

C Yeah. We'd be happy to share one of our most recently completed projects, the ex Ellen DeGeneres campus of the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund was completed last June, and it's one of our most robust impact tracking reports because we had such a deep relationship with that partner and also took that project from its initial phases of inception through design, did all the engineering, the landscape design, the civil engineering, all the way to actually forming a construction company in Rwanda to build it. And so we really, alongside the Fosse Fund, had incredible control ex over who is employed, where materials came from. And so, also, we're able to track all of that data as well. And so I'd be happy to happy to share it and link it. It's really a celebration, I think, of of that partnership.

B That's definitely something that I think people would be interested in seeing, And we'll make sure to put it in the show notes. I think the work that you're doing is so inspiring right now, and I'm thinking of my daily work of, like, the employee experience and ex Just trying to measure, quote unquote, productivity. I would love to see whatever matrix you're using to measure ex What is seemingly the immeasurable to a lot of firms as well, if that makes sense. So to kind of close this off, ex Patricia, you've mentioned several times throughout this conversation that mass is is still very much a startup ex and in start up mode even as you continue to grow. So what is the greatest challenge right now that is facing mass, and ex And what are you working on right now to continue to adapt? And I I realize you've alluded to several tools ex throughout this conversation, but to continue to adapt and and change as mass moves forward.

C Yeah. For me, I think one of the greatest challenges we're facing is really starting to create the stability in our systems Now that we are at a certain scale and have been kind of performing and working on projects across the globe is establishing that kind of routine systems that allow us to stabilize as well as replicate. And I think there's something really, ex Really exciting about the change that we're going through in our organizational structure, but managing change is always hard. And bringing people along in those in the change ex and and then having them feel both really successful and connected to the mission and still able to do their best work is One of the great challenges, I think, of every firm, but especially at Mass where I think we add an additional layer of social change ex that can be for some people, I think, very heavy to have to carry that weight and to carry it for so long. And so building into our team a culture of Trust and generosity and humility and self care is of, like, incredible importance as we continue to navigate the change that is required to do this work.

A Evelyn and I talked to a lot of emerging professionals and leaders in this industry who want to see more of what you all are able to achieve through your business model in the Xastry. And so I want to just kind of close it out by asking you for any words of advice or inspiration or even encouragement back our industry as they think about how to weave some of these ideas that we've heard today on this episode into their own careers or practices.

D I think some of the things that we've alluded to have talked about the reality that this work is hard. Progress takes times. Ex And the way that MAS is practicing, it's in a space that's, like, sometimes really delicately balanced, Working either in partnership and other times in a productive tension with established professional norms. So it can be really easy, ex Especially when you're coming into a new practice to think about, like, I need to come into that organization with, like, blazing energy and I wanna change everything. And Everything that our organization is doing is is not right, and that's kind of the initiation mindset. And I would just encourage people to go in with the invitation mindset where you are invited into the ecosystem of that organization or that firm you're a part of. You're trying to figure out how to, like, honor that ecosystem. You're trying to figure out where are the moments ex that you can push and help nudge change forward and be patient and be confident expand your ability to make progress over time.

C I love that. I do think one of the most amazing things about working at MAS is the people that I get to work with and how inspiring each individual is and what they're bringing to the table, not just in their technical skills and their diversity of ex Discipline, but really just the the amazing heart that people are leaving with. And I think for others who are interested in doing this work explore reflecting on their own practices. I would look around and make sure that you have people around you who are willing to support you and people that you wanna continue to to build relationship with. And I think that goes with, you know, our internal team as well as our external partners. I think this is about this work is about relationships, and it's about being in relationship for the duration. We talk a lot about ex accompaniment. It's a it's a term from Paul Farmer, one of our founders, really, and who we are modeled, in his honor.

C And it's really about accompanying someone through a journey and being on that journey not when you deem it's complete, ex But when the person that's being accompanied deems it's complete. And that process of walking that journey, I think, is something that We have been in pursuit of, at mass, really trying to accompany people through their journey, navigating the built space, built environment. Ex and I think finding the people that you want to accompany can be one of the greatest gifts of this profession. And then lastly, just because I I think I have to say it. I think that in this market, I think that's can be really challenging to work in. I think just not losing hope. Hope that architecture can be greater, hope that architecture can really create the kind of change in the world that we wanna see to create a really incredible future that we all wanna live in and can live in together.

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